Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
Well ok I think our mails are overlapping. :) Anyway I just bought a DXR2 card on Ebay for £2 (about $3.50 USD), so now I am a legal owner of a means to decode DVDs and AC3 in hardware and am not breaking the law whatsoever when I watch movies in Linux. I know I said I didn't particularly care if I was breaking the law, but it still doesn't mean that I liked it. It doesn't solve your problems perhaps, but maybe the DXR3 route may be a way for you to go (although from what I can see, they seem to have been discontinued too). Still at £2.00 I personally haven't risked much, so maybe I can go to bed and sleep a little easier at night now. :) Regards, Q - Original Message - From: "Q" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > Ok maybe I'm not being very clear here, but first you say Hollwood cards can > do decoding and then they can't? > > What I mean is is the a hardware PCI card that can legally decode > *protected* DVDs in hardware? That is a card that decodes DVD videos > (Macrovision protected) in hardware, in just the way my stand alone consumer > electronics DVD player can? > > Q > > - Original Message - > From: "Kim Pedersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > > > > On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 13:15, Q wrote: > > > Well I asked about this on JustLinux.com. It was them that pointed out > the > > > Hollywood range of cards too me. But I guess they got it wrong too. > > > > > > Is there such a thing as a hardware decoder? It would be nice to be able > to > > > have something that decoded my DVDs in just the same way my stand alone > dvd > > > player did. I tried seaching Google on this but all I could find were > people > > > talking about the Hollywod cards and another similar (seemingly > > > discontinued) Creative card. > > > > There is something as a hardware decoder... The Hollywood cards. They do > > mpeg2 decoding in hardware. > > > > Your DVD player read a stream of data that happens to be mpeg2, and that > > can be passed onto your hardware decoder if you have one, or let > > software handle it. > > > > > > It seem a kind of obvious thing that there should be a card like this, > but > > > maybe there is a good reason there isn't? > > > > > > Q > > > > > > PS > > > > > > Thanks for stopping me from throwing good money away for nothing very > > > useful. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kim Pedersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > --- > > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > > > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > > ___ > > Freevo-users mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > > > > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
Ok maybe I'm not being very clear here, but first you say Hollwood cards can do decoding and then they can't? What I mean is is the a hardware PCI card that can legally decode *protected* DVDs in hardware? That is a card that decodes DVD videos (Macrovision protected) in hardware, in just the way my stand alone consumer electronics DVD player can? Q - Original Message - From: "Kim Pedersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 13:15, Q wrote: > > Well I asked about this on JustLinux.com. It was them that pointed out the > > Hollywood range of cards too me. But I guess they got it wrong too. > > > > Is there such a thing as a hardware decoder? It would be nice to be able to > > have something that decoded my DVDs in just the same way my stand alone dvd > > player did. I tried seaching Google on this but all I could find were people > > talking about the Hollywod cards and another similar (seemingly > > discontinued) Creative card. > > There is something as a hardware decoder... The Hollywood cards. They do > mpeg2 decoding in hardware. > > Your DVD player read a stream of data that happens to be mpeg2, and that > can be passed onto your hardware decoder if you have one, or let > software handle it. > > > > It seem a kind of obvious thing that there should be a card like this, but > > maybe there is a good reason there isn't? > > > > Q > > > > PS > > > > Thanks for stopping me from throwing good money away for nothing very > > useful. :) > > > > > > > -- > Kim Pedersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
On Fri 01.08.2003 at 12:15:35PM +0100, Q wrote: > Well I asked about this on JustLinux.com. It was them that pointed out the > Hollywood range of cards too me. But I guess they got it wrong too. > > Is there such a thing as a hardware decoder? It would be nice to be able to > have something that decoded my DVDs in just the same way my stand alone dvd > player did. I tried seaching Google on this but all I could find were people > talking about the Hollywod cards and another similar (seemingly > discontinued) Creative card. AFAIK Dxr2 did so (CSS decoding and MPEG2 decoding in hw), but it's not manufactured anymore. > It seem a kind of obvious thing that there should be a card like this, but > maybe there is a good reason there isn't? Decoding CSS is probably fast enough in software, so it's cheaper to sell Dxr3 with a CSS decoding software. What might be legal for CSS decoding, however, is to use the legal software shipped with Dxr3 to de-CSS movies. This would require tweaking, since this software is Windows-only, but it would be legal. However, some people have pointed out that the DVD-regioning system (for which CSS is used) is not legal from the point of view of international commerce and free exchange laws... But this is another story. Matthieu -- (~._.~)Matthieu Weber - Université de Jyväskylä (~._.~) ( ? )email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( ? ) ()- -() public key id : 452AE0AD ()- -() (_)-(_) "Humor ist, wenn man trotzdem lacht (Germain Muller)" (_)-(_) --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 13:15, Q wrote: > Well I asked about this on JustLinux.com. It was them that pointed out the > Hollywood range of cards too me. But I guess they got it wrong too. > > Is there such a thing as a hardware decoder? It would be nice to be able to > have something that decoded my DVDs in just the same way my stand alone dvd > player did. I tried seaching Google on this but all I could find were people > talking about the Hollywod cards and another similar (seemingly > discontinued) Creative card. There is something as a hardware decoder... The Hollywood cards. They do mpeg2 decoding in hardware. Your DVD player read a stream of data that happens to be mpeg2, and that can be passed onto your hardware decoder if you have one, or let software handle it. > > It seem a kind of obvious thing that there should be a card like this, but > maybe there is a good reason there isn't? > > Q > > PS > > Thanks for stopping me from throwing good money away for nothing very > useful. :) > > -- Kim Pedersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
Well I asked about this on JustLinux.com. It was them that pointed out the Hollywood range of cards too me. But I guess they got it wrong too. Is there such a thing as a hardware decoder? It would be nice to be able to have something that decoded my DVDs in just the same way my stand alone dvd player did. I tried seaching Google on this but all I could find were people talking about the Hollywod cards and another similar (seemingly discontinued) Creative card. It seem a kind of obvious thing that there should be a card like this, but maybe there is a good reason there isn't? Q PS Thanks for stopping me from throwing good money away for nothing very useful. :) - Original Message - From: "Dirk Meyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > "Q" wrote: > > I'm thinking on buying a hardware dvd decoder card anyway, such as the > > Hollywood+ range of cards. > > The Hollywood+ is no hardware dvd decoder, it's an hardware mpeg2 > decoder. This DVD still needs to be decoded by software. > > > Dischi > > -- > Thunder rolled. ... It rolled a six. > -- (Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!) > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
[Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
"Q" wrote: > I'm thinking on buying a hardware dvd decoder card anyway, such as the > Hollywood+ range of cards. The Hollywood+ is no hardware dvd decoder, it's an hardware mpeg2 decoder. This DVD still needs to be decoded by software. Dischi -- Thunder rolled. ... It rolled a six. -- (Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!) --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 05:03:30PM +0200, Dirk Meyer wrote: > Interessting. But you can't use this version of Xine with Freevo. Not > because we don't want to, but Freevo needs some special features which > are n Xine only for some days. But maybe we can mix xine.py and > xine_cvs.py: if xine --version < xxx fall back to the ugly hack in > xine.py else do the new stuff (except for framebuffer mode because > older fbxine doesn't work when started from Freevo). I really don't want to go out of my way to support Lindows. We can put the plugin in contrib, but I don't want to muck up the code with hacks to support them. Even though what Lindows is doing is perfectly legal (perhaps MORE so than Xine itself) it still seems shady to me. At least they mentioned Xine in this one. Usually, they just rebrand things with the Lindows name and strip out the actual name of the program. Aubin --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
I'm thinking on buying a hardware dvd decoder card anyway, such as the Hollywood+ range of cards. I don't know what the legal status of that is, but even if I did have a software decoder too, I would have to assume that I had some defacto rights to decode DVD's in linux. I think if someone took the time to ask a lawyer about these things, the situation would become much clearer for everyone. But perhaps harware DVD decoding is another way to go? Q - Original Message - From: "Dirk Meyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:03 PM Subject: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > "Q" wrote: > > Maybe its useful. > > > > http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_details.php?id=11804 > > Interessting. But you can't use this version of Xine with Freevo. Not > because we don't want to, but Freevo needs some special features which > are n Xine only for some days. But maybe we can mix xine.py and > xine_cvs.py: if xine --version < xxx fall back to the ugly hack in > xine.py else do the new stuff (except for framebuffer mode because > older fbxine doesn't work when started from Freevo). > > > Dischi > > -- > Voodoo Programming: Things programmers do that they know shouldn't work but > they try anyway, and which sometimes actually work, such as recompiling > everything. > -- Karl Lehenbauer > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
[Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
"Q" wrote: > Maybe its useful. > > http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_details.php?id=11804 Interessting. But you can't use this version of Xine with Freevo. Not because we don't want to, but Freevo needs some special features which are n Xine only for some days. But maybe we can mix xine.py and xine_cvs.py: if xine --version < xxx fall back to the ugly hack in xine.py else do the new stuff (except for framebuffer mode because older fbxine doesn't work when started from Freevo). Dischi -- Voodoo Programming: Things programmers do that they know shouldn't work but they try anyway, and which sometimes actually work, such as recompiling everything. -- Karl Lehenbauer --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Dirk Meyer wrote: > I would suggest the following: distribute Freevo with everything > needed except Mplayer and Xine. Give the users a pointer where to > download these two programs (like Xine does where to get binaries). > It used to be that we needed additional functionality in mplayer which wasn't in their code base (OSD?). Guess it's no longer an issue now. But we'd still need minimum version dependencies (the most recent mplayer changed the way inputs are specified to use URL type formats). Also, will 'freevo setup' still configure mplayer path (and now, xine path)? I guess the setup process will have to be much more flexible and intelligent. T.C. Wan Tat Chee (Lecturer) School of Computer Science, Univ. of Science Malaysia, 11800 USM, Penang, Malaysia. Rm.625 Ofc Ph: +604 653-3888 x 3617 NRG Lab Admin: +604 659-4757 Rm.601-E Ofc Ph: +604 653-4396 Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Web: http://nrg.cs.usm.my/~tcwan GPG Key : http://nrg.cs.usm.my/~tcwan/tcw_gpg-20030322.asc F'print : DCF2 B9B2 FA4D 1208 AD59 14CA 9A8F F54D B2C4 63C7 --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
I like this idea... it's like we had before: freevo runtime apps we could ship freevo & runtime and a legal apps package. I can provide apps package that are legal here in Brazil and other countries... Gustavo --- Dirk Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > Hi, > > "Krister Lagerstrom" wrote: > > The current solution has the legally questionable modules disabled > by > > default, and the user has to manually enable them if it is legal > where he > > lives. > > But this may be not enough. SuSE and RedHat both ship mplayer/xine > without DeCSS and AC3 (yes, AC3 has a copyright and Freevo is not > paying). The Xine people only have sources and not have DeCSS > included > (don't know about AC3). The Mplayer people have a server in Hungary > which may be ok for them. > > Freevo is the only project providing everything needed in one > package. For the users this is great, because we need many Python > libs > which aren't installed as default. But IIRC our mplayer also not all > features because some windows dlls are copy protected, too. So you > see, we already have a cripled mplayer. > > I don't think it's too much to ask for the user to get the mplayer > somewhere else. There are many sites where you can get a fully > working > mplayer or xine -- but not at USA, German, France, ... server. I > don't > like the law, but I think we should respect it (the same we we want > others to resepect the GPL). > > I would suggest the following: distribute Freevo with everything > needed except Mplayer and Xine. Give the users a pointer where to > download these two programs (like Xine does where to get binaries). > > If someone doesn't like that, he's free to pack it's own Freevo > package on a server. We could add a link to this. > > > Comments please. > > > Dischi > > -- > Early to rise, early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy and dead. > -- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic" > > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites > including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users ___ Conheça o novo Cadê? - Mais rápido, mais fácil e mais preciso. Toda a web, 42 milhões de páginas brasileiras e nova busca por imagens! http://www.cade.com.br --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
Maybe its useful. http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_details.php?id=11804 Q - Original Message - From: "Dirk Meyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:02 PM Subject: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > "Q" wrote: > > If you do not mind me asking, I only have one question. Will this allow > > compatability with an unrestricted versions of Mplayer or Xine to be > > maintained, or will this no longer be a priority of the Freevo team? > > Just the opposite. You need an unrestricted version to get all the > features. With an restricted version, you can only watch non protected > DVDs. Freevo doesn't care about the restrictions of the player, it > just says play it and doesn't know about protections (Freevo only > knows about a DVD in the drive, not if it's protected) > > > There is also a legal version of Xine avaiable from Lindows.com, > > (fully licenced codec) so maybe you could point concerned users to > > this too. It isn't cheap, but if these kinds of things genuinely > > concern you, maybe it would be a worthwhile alternative. > > If the Lindows version has all features isn't sure, maybe it's only > the licenced _codecs_ (AC3, MPEG2) but still not DeCSS. I read the > xine-devel list and they try to find out. It doesn't concern me (or > Freevo) where you get your player and what features it has. If you > want to be 100% legal this is ok or if not (like you and most other > users), you can get a full version of the player and Freevo has > everything it has now. > > > Dischi > > -- > It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by unresolved > Y1K issues. > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
[Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
"Q" wrote: > If you do not mind me asking, I only have one question. Will this allow > compatability with an unrestricted versions of Mplayer or Xine to be > maintained, or will this no longer be a priority of the Freevo team? Just the opposite. You need an unrestricted version to get all the features. With an restricted version, you can only watch non protected DVDs. Freevo doesn't care about the restrictions of the player, it just says play it and doesn't know about protections (Freevo only knows about a DVD in the drive, not if it's protected) > There is also a legal version of Xine avaiable from Lindows.com, > (fully licenced codec) so maybe you could point concerned users to > this too. It isn't cheap, but if these kinds of things genuinely > concern you, maybe it would be a worthwhile alternative. If the Lindows version has all features isn't sure, maybe it's only the licenced _codecs_ (AC3, MPEG2) but still not DeCSS. I read the xine-devel list and they try to find out. It doesn't concern me (or Freevo) where you get your player and what features it has. If you want to be 100% legal this is ok or if not (like you and most other users), you can get a full version of the player and Freevo has everything it has now. Dischi -- It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by unresolved Y1K issues. --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
If you do not mind me asking, I only have one question. Will this allow compatability with an unrestricted versions of Mplayer or Xine to be maintained, or will this no longer be a priority of the Freevo team? What I mean is is it possible that this change in direction might break some compatability at some point in the future? If the answer is no, then that is good enough for me. I guess then all this does is allow the user to choose his or her own moral position - and their media player preferences. There is also a legal version of Xine avaiable from Lindows.com, (fully licenced codec) so maybe you could point concerned users to this too. It isn't cheap, but if these kinds of things genuinely concern you, maybe it would be a worthwhile alternative. Q - Original Message - From: "Rob Shortt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > Dirk Meyer wrote: > > I don't think it's too much to ask for the user to get the mplayer > > somewhere else. There are many sites where you can get a fully working > > mplayer or xine -- but not at USA, German, France, ... server. I don't > > like the law, but I think we should respect it (the same we we want > > others to resepect the GPL). > > > > I would suggest the following: distribute Freevo with everything > > needed except Mplayer and Xine. Give the users a pointer where to > > download these two programs (like Xine does where to get binaries). > > This would also save me lots of work building the runtime (get new CVS > versions of things, apply patches, etc, etc, release, test, repeat...), > which occasionally takes up 1-2 weeks of my time when it could be better > used actually developing Freevo. > > So what I am saying here is that I would be in favour of this. :) > > -Rob > > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
Dirk Meyer wrote: I don't think it's too much to ask for the user to get the mplayer somewhere else. There are many sites where you can get a fully working mplayer or xine -- but not at USA, German, France, ... server. I don't like the law, but I think we should respect it (the same we we want others to resepect the GPL). I would suggest the following: distribute Freevo with everything needed except Mplayer and Xine. Give the users a pointer where to download these two programs (like Xine does where to get binaries). This would also save me lots of work building the runtime (get new CVS versions of things, apply patches, etc, etc, release, test, repeat...), which occasionally takes up 1-2 weeks of my time when it could be better used actually developing Freevo. So what I am saying here is that I would be in favour of this. :) -Rob --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
[Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
Hi, "Krister Lagerstrom" wrote: > The current solution has the legally questionable modules disabled by > default, and the user has to manually enable them if it is legal where he > lives. But this may be not enough. SuSE and RedHat both ship mplayer/xine without DeCSS and AC3 (yes, AC3 has a copyright and Freevo is not paying). The Xine people only have sources and not have DeCSS included (don't know about AC3). The Mplayer people have a server in Hungary which may be ok for them. Freevo is the only project providing everything needed in one package. For the users this is great, because we need many Python libs which aren't installed as default. But IIRC our mplayer also not all features because some windows dlls are copy protected, too. So you see, we already have a cripled mplayer. I don't think it's too much to ask for the user to get the mplayer somewhere else. There are many sites where you can get a fully working mplayer or xine -- but not at USA, German, France, ... server. I don't like the law, but I think we should respect it (the same we we want others to resepect the GPL). I would suggest the following: distribute Freevo with everything needed except Mplayer and Xine. Give the users a pointer where to download these two programs (like Xine does where to get binaries). If someone doesn't like that, he's free to pack it's own Freevo package on a server. We could add a link to this. Comments please. Dischi -- Early to rise, early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy and dead. -- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic" --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
That's a fairly negative reply. I didn't believe anyone was 'argung', indeed I'm sorry I mentioned the legal aspects at all. Nonetheless your solution is similar to that I suggested: i.e. simply disable the functionality and make it reasonably simple for the user to renable it. Just put legal warnings and diclaimers next to those sections that are worryiing to you. Then you satisfy everyone's legal concerns and the responsibility for enabling or disabling certain fetaures lies with the user and with what is considered legal in their country. If that sounded like I was arguing with anyone I'm sorry. I genuinely thought what we were engaged in was a philosophical debate. As for reporting myself to the police, I think the biggest problem I would face is that they would just laugh at me. The conversation would at least be extremely bizzar. I doubt any of them really know what Linux is Anyway, I'm happy to let the subject drop, as I think its silly it has even come this far. I think pretty much all of us can agree on the ansolute supidity of the current sistuation with regard to the legal status of playing back certain types of media on Linux. Whether you feel the concequenes are likely to be real or not, it is a bizzar situation that isn't likely to get any better any time soon. I don't have any aswers for it either, sorry. At least none beyond what the majority of Linux users and developers are doing, which is to dismiss it as not very important. If you feel it necessary to do otherwise, that is entirely your perogative. Q - Original Message - From: "Krister Lagerstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > > "OK, let me try to explain some things." > > > > No need to explain. I fully understand. But I think we simply disagree > > on how urgent or significant it is. I think the chances of anyone > > comming after a small obscure (if you will forgive me from saying so) > > linux application suite, are minimum in the extreme. > > The current solution has the legally questionable modules disabled by > default, and the user has to manually enable them if it is legal where he > lives. > > This would be similar to most cars today, where the amount of emissions > and horsepowers can be set in firmware to comply with local regulations. > Yes, you can actually "download horsepowers" to your car! Tampering with > Freevo might make it illegal where you live, just like tampering with your > car engine would. > > You might think that the Freevo developers should assume the legal risk of > distributing the software, due to the "minimum risks" involved. I don't > agree with this. You've made your point that the features are valuable, > but please stop arguing for other people to take personal legal risks that > they are not comfortable with. This is not helpful in any way. > > Instead, if you'd like to help, please instead work on independently > producing and distributing a runtime that has the features that you think > should be in there. > > If you're not technically capable, you can also put your money where your > mouth is and force a legal precedent. You can do this by reporting > yourself to the local authorities for watching DVDs on Linux using an > MPlayer that you downloaded and compiled yourself. Or even make a backup > of a DVD you own... > > / Krister > > > > > > --- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > ___ > Freevo-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users > --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
> "OK, let me try to explain some things." > > No need to explain. I fully understand. But I think we simply disagree > on how urgent or significant it is. I think the chances of anyone > comming after a small obscure (if you will forgive me from saying so) > linux application suite, are minimum in the extreme. The current solution has the legally questionable modules disabled by default, and the user has to manually enable them if it is legal where he lives. This would be similar to most cars today, where the amount of emissions and horsepowers can be set in firmware to comply with local regulations. Yes, you can actually "download horsepowers" to your car! Tampering with Freevo might make it illegal where you live, just like tampering with your car engine would. You might think that the Freevo developers should assume the legal risk of distributing the software, due to the "minimum risks" involved. I don't agree with this. You've made your point that the features are valuable, but please stop arguing for other people to take personal legal risks that they are not comfortable with. This is not helpful in any way. Instead, if you'd like to help, please instead work on independently producing and distributing a runtime that has the features that you think should be in there. If you're not technically capable, you can also put your money where your mouth is and force a legal precedent. You can do this by reporting yourself to the local authorities for watching DVDs on Linux using an MPlayer that you downloaded and compiled yourself. Or even make a backup of a DVD you own... / Krister --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
Re: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
"OK, let me try to explain some things." No need to explain. I fully understand. But I think we simply disagree on how urgent or significant it is. I think the chances of anyone comming after a small obscure (if you will forgive me from saying so) linux application suite, are minimum in the extreme. Form my own experience, installing/uninstalling MPlayer or Xine for the average (that is not developer level) user can be easy, or may not be. It doesn't always work out the way you plan it. For a developer this might be easy to fix, but for an ordianry user I'm not so sure. That is why I liked the idea of Freevo, specifically for the reason that it had no external dependancies. Call me a sucker too for an intergrated solution. I just like neat and tidy approaches to these kinds of problems. Well anyway Like I said that will teach me to open my mouth. Now we've gone from me mentioning simply in passing while discussing another subject the potential legal complexities of copying DVD's, to you saying you are now going to 'kick Mplayer out of Freevo.' I have used the word 'overreaction' once already, so I won't over use it. But it still seems relevant here. Still like I said its your choice. Q - Original Message - From: "Dirk Meyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:44 PM Subject: [Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues > OK, let me try to explain some things. > > "Q" wrote: > > It was he who did the circumvetion, not you or anyone else, that is why the > > lawyers went after him and not just ordinary every day users. In any case > > Jon has been aquitted of all charges against him, so we still have to see > > an example of a single sucessful prosecution of anyone using their Linux OS > > and associated applications for legitamate reasons. > > No, I don't want to wait. You're right, noone will go after a small > Linux user, playing DVDs with libdecss. With the new law in Germany > (and maybe other countries) this may be illegal, but who can proof it? > On the other hand, if I make a program which can play copy protected > dvds or even rip them, it's illegal. And if I put it on a web site, > everyone will know this. > > Maybe they all don't care about the Linux people -- maybe not. I don't > want to wait until they sue someone, because I'm the maintainer of > Freevo, and it _is_ my problem. > > > Personally I do not relish the idea of going hunting on the web for > > functionality that has been removed, when this functionality is now fairly > > standard throughout nearly all Linux distributions. > > Why do you think SuSE and RedHat ship mplayer with some stuff removed? > Why do you think Xine has no direct support for DeCSS? > > This is all about cracking the copy protection (DeCSS) and some > binaries in mplayer to decode some stuff that are not free. I don't > want to break the law in building a binary only that _you_ have it > easy to watch DVDs. > > > If this were the case I would hope you would at least preserve two options, > > one version of freevo fully enabled and hosted in a non hostile country and > > one that kind of just sat there and didn't do much until you added it back > > in yourself - if you were fortunate enough to find the components you need. > > Wrong! Freevo itself (as in everything _we_ do) doesn't break any law. > Freevo can't watch a DVD or any video file. We use mplayer (or Xine) > to do so. > > Because some users had problems finding all dependencies for Freevo, > we started building the Freevo binary release, conatining everything > you need. This is Freevo + stuff. When we kick mplayer out of the > binary release, we don't remove any functions from Freevo, we only > remove some deps you have to download elsewhere. > > > I don't see the logic in it myself, as the one thing most users will do is > > try their hardest to immediately re-add this functionality back into freevo > > (Perhaps even those argung for the removal of this functionality now would > > do this too?) > > Again, it's not about what the users do privat at home, it's about > what the developers do in public. > > > My biggest concern is for the average user who having installed freevo > > sufddenly finds they can't use it for very much and if they do want any > > interesting functionality they will have to go hunting on some pretty > > obscure web sites with no gurantee that anything they find will be > > compatable. > > Downloading xine and mplayer isn't that hard, isn't it? These are also > no obscure web sites. We are not speaking about moving
[Freevo-users] Re: Legal issues
OK, let me try to explain some things. "Q" wrote: > It was he who did the circumvetion, not you or anyone else, that is why the > lawyers went after him and not just ordinary every day users. In any case > Jon has been aquitted of all charges against him, so we still have to see > an example of a single sucessful prosecution of anyone using their Linux OS > and associated applications for legitamate reasons. No, I don't want to wait. You're right, noone will go after a small Linux user, playing DVDs with libdecss. With the new law in Germany (and maybe other countries) this may be illegal, but who can proof it? On the other hand, if I make a program which can play copy protected dvds or even rip them, it's illegal. And if I put it on a web site, everyone will know this. Maybe they all don't care about the Linux people -- maybe not. I don't want to wait until they sue someone, because I'm the maintainer of Freevo, and it _is_ my problem. > Personally I do not relish the idea of going hunting on the web for > functionality that has been removed, when this functionality is now fairly > standard throughout nearly all Linux distributions. Why do you think SuSE and RedHat ship mplayer with some stuff removed? Why do you think Xine has no direct support for DeCSS? This is all about cracking the copy protection (DeCSS) and some binaries in mplayer to decode some stuff that are not free. I don't want to break the law in building a binary only that _you_ have it easy to watch DVDs. > If this were the case I would hope you would at least preserve two options, > one version of freevo fully enabled and hosted in a non hostile country and > one that kind of just sat there and didn't do much until you added it back > in yourself - if you were fortunate enough to find the components you need. Wrong! Freevo itself (as in everything _we_ do) doesn't break any law. Freevo can't watch a DVD or any video file. We use mplayer (or Xine) to do so. Because some users had problems finding all dependencies for Freevo, we started building the Freevo binary release, conatining everything you need. This is Freevo + stuff. When we kick mplayer out of the binary release, we don't remove any functions from Freevo, we only remove some deps you have to download elsewhere. > I don't see the logic in it myself, as the one thing most users will do is > try their hardest to immediately re-add this functionality back into freevo > (Perhaps even those argung for the removal of this functionality now would > do this too?) Again, it's not about what the users do privat at home, it's about what the developers do in public. > My biggest concern is for the average user who having installed freevo > sufddenly finds they can't use it for very much and if they do want any > interesting functionality they will have to go hunting on some pretty > obscure web sites with no gurantee that anything they find will be > compatable. Downloading xine and mplayer isn't that hard, isn't it? These are also no obscure web sites. We are not speaking about moving function xy from Freevo to a different webserver. Freevo itself is legal! Dischi -- Beta. Software undergoes beta testing shortly before it's released. Beta is Latin for 'still doesn't work.' --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa0013ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 ___ Freevo-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freevo-users
