Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Frank Wimberly]

That's what I always thought.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, 12:44 PM glen  wrote:

> Clearly you're a Scientismist! >8^D
>
> On 9/26/22 11:14, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> > I'm sorry I opened that.
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:27 PM Jon Zingale  jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Steve -
> >
> > Reponsive to your references to Sabine Hossenfelder, et al...
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I=69s_channel=BoilerRoom <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I=69s_channel=BoilerRoom>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[glen]

Clearly you're a Scientismist! >8^D

On 9/26/22 11:14, Frank Wimberly wrote:

I'm sorry I opened that.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:27 PM Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Steve -

Reponsive to your references to Sabine Hossenfelder, et al...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I=69s_channel=BoilerRoom 



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm sorry I opened that.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:27 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> Steve -
>
> Reponsive to your references to Sabine Hossenfelder, et al...
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I=69s_channel=BoilerRoom
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[glen]

Hey now, if it's rooted in the history, it must be the right thing to do: 
https://youtu.be/djMjYgqFrrQ

On 5/9/22 08:10, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Wasn’t that the guy who touted curing bubonic plague wtih bleach and bright 
lights?

--Barry

On 9 May 2022, at 10:38, glen wrote:


Draft Overturning Roe v. Wade Quotes Infamous Witch Trial Judge With 
Long-Discredited Ideas on Rape
https://www.propublica.org/article/abortion-roe-wade-alito-scotus-hale


On 5/8/22 20:58, Alexander Rasmus wrote:

Nich,

The test of "is this law rooted in the traditions of our nation" means that 
it's unlikely to be found constitutional if applied to the entire population. Depending 
on who is applying the test, it's unclear whether it would stand if applied to a narrowly 
tailored group.

Best,
Alex

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:29 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be 
outraged.

    ---
    Frank C. Wimberly
    140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
    Santa Fe, NM 87505

    505 670-9918
    Santa Fe, NM

    On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent 
states from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after 
one birth.



--
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Marcus Daniels]

Maybe they can take some comfort in this culture battle victory before being 
completely cooked?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2022/05/08/texas-record-heat-midwest/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 7:38 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

Draft Overturning Roe v. Wade Quotes Infamous Witch Trial Judge With 
Long-Discredited Ideas on Rape 
https://www.propublica.org/article/abortion-roe-wade-alito-scotus-hale


On 5/8/22 20:58, Alexander Rasmus wrote:
> Nich,
> 
> The test of "is this law rooted in the traditions of our nation" means that 
> it's unlikely to be found constitutional if applied to the entire population. 
> Depending on who is applying the test, it's unclear whether it would stand if 
> applied to a narrowly tailored group.
> 
> Best,
> Alex
> 
> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:29 PM Frank Wimberly  <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be 
> outraged.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson  <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent 
> states from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after 
> one birth.
> 


--
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Barry MacKichan]

Wasn’t that the guy who touted curing bubonic plague wtih bleach and 
bright lights?


--Barry

On 9 May 2022, at 10:38, glen wrote:

Draft Overturning Roe v. Wade Quotes Infamous Witch Trial Judge With 
Long-Discredited Ideas on Rape

https://www.propublica.org/article/abortion-roe-wade-alito-scotus-hale


On 5/8/22 20:58, Alexander Rasmus wrote:

Nich,

The test of "is this law rooted in the traditions of our nation" 
means that it's unlikely to be found constitutional if applied to the 
entire population. Depending on who is applying the test, it's 
unclear whether it would stand if applied to a narrowly tailored 
group.


Best,
Alex

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:29 PM Frank Wimberly > wrote:


Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also 
people would be outraged.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would 
prevent states from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating 
sterilization after one birth.





--
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Barry MacKichan]

Especially if it were retroactive…

--Barry

On 8 May 2022, at 21:29, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would 
be

outraged.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 


wrote:

Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent 
states
from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after 
one

birth.


Sent from my Dumb Phone
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[glen]

Draft Overturning Roe v. Wade Quotes Infamous Witch Trial Judge With 
Long-Discredited Ideas on Rape
https://www.propublica.org/article/abortion-roe-wade-alito-scotus-hale


On 5/8/22 20:58, Alexander Rasmus wrote:

Nich,

The test of "is this law rooted in the traditions of our nation" means that 
it's unlikely to be found constitutional if applied to the entire population. Depending 
on who is applying the test, it's unclear whether it would stand if applied to a narrowly 
tailored group.

Best,
Alex

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:29 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be 
outraged.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent 
states from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after 
one birth.




--
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Marcus Daniels]

If SCOTUS says it is, it is.

On May 8, 2022, at 8:59 PM, Alexander Rasmus  wrote:


Nich,

The test of "is this law rooted in the traditions of our nation" means that 
it's unlikely to be found constitutional if applied to the entire population. 
Depending on who is applying the test, it's unclear whether it would stand if 
applied to a narrowly tailored group.

Best,
Alex

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:29 PM Frank Wimberly 
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be 
outraged.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent states from 
mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after one birth.


Sent from my Dumb Phone
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Alexander Rasmus]

Nich,

The test of "is this law rooted in the traditions of our nation" means that
it's unlikely to be found constitutional if applied to the entire
population. Depending on who is applying the test, it's unclear whether it
would stand if applied to a narrowly tailored group.

Best,
Alex

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:29 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be
> outraged.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent states
>> from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after one
>> birth.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe 
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Frank Wimberly]

Three syllable Italian name.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 9:21 PM  wrote:

> Yes.  Or course.  Alito.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 8, 2022 8:29 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)
>
>
>
> Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be
> outraged.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
> Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent states
> from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after one
> birth.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[thompnickson2]

Yes.  Or course.  Alito.  

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 8:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

 

Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be 
outraged.  

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent states from 
mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after one birth.

 

Sent from my Dumb Phone

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Frank Wimberly]

Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be
outraged.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent states
> from mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after one
> birth.
>
>
> Sent from my Dumb Phone
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Marcus Daniels]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2021/12/11/michael-strahan-blue-origin-space-flight-nr-vpx.cnn

On Dec 12, 2021, at 10:52 AM, David Eric Smith  wrote:

 That poem runs through my head almost-daily in this era where all is blame, 
yet little is helpful work.

Has been since present since I encountered it, I think in the Norton Anthology, 
Jeez, how long ago?  End of college?  Early grad school?

On Dec 12, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Jon Zingale 
mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:


'Stating that there is a single answer to a math problem is "white" and 
therefore "racist."'

Of course, there *is* only a single answer (Elon) and that is for whitey to be 
on the moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nzoPopQ7V0_channel=reelblack

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Jon Zingale]

'Stating that there is a single answer to a math problem is "white"
and therefore "racist."'


Of course, there *is* only a single answer (Elon) and that is for whitey to
be on the moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nzoPopQ7V0_channel=reelblack

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Marcus Daniels]

There is already coercion in the workplace in the form of the org chart.   My 
take on psychological safety is that it is really about bounding and resolving 
conflict and not letting the outcome of arguments take on truth status or 
change the political power of the winners or losers.   This is in the interests 
of the lower- and mid-level managers as much as the individuals who put forward 
weak ideas.   A company needs people that are prepared to be disagreeable to 
put down bad ideas, or everyone will bring their pony to the pageant, and 
complain they fell unsafe when they don’t get a blue ribbon!

On Oct 29, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Jon Zingale  wrote:


"Why does HR assume I even want a safe space?"

One can always ask. Plain text is always at least one of the interpretations.

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Nicely written article, on a thing we have been looking forward to for a while.

Would be interesting to look at this state under Lorentz transforms, given that 
it is spatially localized and using Anderson’s asymptotically-total internal 
reflection to create a specially ordered pattern (if I understood which of the 
designs was ultimately used).

Quantum computer made of ultra-cold aligned particles in a synchrotron 
accelerator.

Eric



> On Aug 11, 2021, at 11:16 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> Eternal Change for No Energy: A Time Crystal Finally Made Real
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quantamagazine.org%2ffirst-time-crystal-built-using-googles-quantum-computer-20210730%2f=E,1,pWVZJcEdKd1HtqiLo8HFw4ge3TSdSFiGHzhgSAgSrq1RoMvoQHZywkMvhN_C2YStFFVjbSfGkmrm1y3aKMV56pjw_dyXXMZqVlabOEKlSBXmSa0TFls,=1
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/26/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> No, thanks very much for the transcript. Time as updating is an old concept. 
>> So, it's not clear to me that they're talking about anything new *there*. 
>> But they sound a bit wrong to me in decoupling the updating from the 
>> *subgraph* that gets updated as well as any kind of causal cascade of 
>> updating (dependent/sequential vs. independent/parallel). You can't separate 
>> dependency from the graph. So if there is a dependent update in one part of 
>> the graph, dependent on another part of the graph, then the updating cannot 
>> be independent of the graph. I.e. space and time are not independent and, 
>> perhaps, not different things at all. Perhaps progressive updating is 
>> *merely* that the graph has large scale cycles? So, an updating over there 
>> drives an updating here, which drives an updating over there?
>> 
>> Of course, they're way smarter than me. So I'm sure there's some deep 
>> literature somewhere and I should, but probably won't, RTFM.
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/23/21 6:32 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
>>> Anyway, I hope including the transcript here was not too boring.
>> 
>> [reordered rather than snipped]
>> 
>>> Thank you for looking into it. Yes, that is the publication. Also, thank 
>>> you for posting "The post-truth prophets"[0]. Sean Illing manages to get at 
>>> the heart of what I find myself defending regarding postmodernism[1]. You 
>>> may remember that some months ago, I was on a "Bergson through the eyes of 
>>> Deleuze"-kick. Bergson, a prominent philosopher of mind, space, and time 
>>> (in his time) was driven completely underground by Einstein, Russell, and 
>>> other promoters of relativity theory. By many historical accounts, the work 
>>> of Bergson could have been all but forgotten had Deleuze not resurrected 
>>> his ideas, and especially their applications to film. Crucial to Bergson's 
>>> conception was to recognize time and space as explicitly different kinds of 
>>> things, and via his admiration of Riemann, sought out but never found a 
>>> mathematical treatment for his ideas. Listening to Wolfram's interview on 
>>> Sean Carroll's podcast[2], I cannot help but wonder if this recent work is 
>>> a step toward Bergson's
>>> dream. Around 42 minutes into the interview, SeanC and SteveW record:
>>> 
>>> """
>>> 0:41:26.7 SW: That is, you might have thought to get something as 
>>> computationally sophisticated as us humans with our brains and all this 
>>> kind of thing you need the whole process that’s led to us humans. But what 
>>> the principle of computational equivalence says is that’s not true. Even 
>>> these very simple systems with very simple rules can do it, and that has… 
>>> Well, it has lots of consequences. If you’re worrying about 
>>> extraterrestrial intelligence, for example, that tells you it’s everywhere. 
>>> It’s a question of whether we are sufficiently aligned with that 
>>> intelligence to be able to recognize it as something that, for example, has 
>>> purposes that we can understand as sort of human-like purposes. And I think 
>>> this idea intelligence requires liquid water is almost laughable.
>>> 
>>> 0:42:10.2 SC: Right. [laughter] I’m on your side when it comes to that, but 
>>> intelligence might require spacetime in some sense, so let’s at least try 
>>> to get that. Is this naïve picture that I have in mind, where you have the 
>>> hypergraph, you update, it’s a discrete updating… Can I think of the graph 
>>> at any one update as space and the update itself as time, or is that too 
>>> simple-minded?
>>> 
>>> 0:42:35.3 SW: Okay, so it gets a little complicated. And in fact, the 
>>> complexity that arises is quantum mechanics, I think. And so it’s, in a 
>>> sense, you try and make it that simple and you… Okay, so the basic point 
>>> is, the rule says if you have a lump of atoms of space that are connected 
>>> in this way, transform it into a lump that’s connected in this other way, 
>>> and it… Basically the rule just says that’s what you do. It doesn’t say 
>>> where you do it, it doesn’t say when you do it, it’s just any time there’s 
>>> a lump that looks 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Eternal Change for No Energy: A Time Crystal Finally Made Real
https://www.quantamagazine.org/first-time-crystal-built-using-googles-quantum-computer-20210730/



On 7/26/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> No, thanks very much for the transcript. Time as updating is an old concept. 
> So, it's not clear to me that they're talking about anything new *there*. But 
> they sound a bit wrong to me in decoupling the updating from the *subgraph* 
> that gets updated as well as any kind of causal cascade of updating 
> (dependent/sequential vs. independent/parallel). You can't separate 
> dependency from the graph. So if there is a dependent update in one part of 
> the graph, dependent on another part of the graph, then the updating cannot 
> be independent of the graph. I.e. space and time are not independent and, 
> perhaps, not different things at all. Perhaps progressive updating is 
> *merely* that the graph has large scale cycles? So, an updating over there 
> drives an updating here, which drives an updating over there?
> 
> Of course, they're way smarter than me. So I'm sure there's some deep 
> literature somewhere and I should, but probably won't, RTFM.
> 
> 
> On 7/23/21 6:32 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
>> Anyway, I hope including the transcript here was not too boring.
> 
> [reordered rather than snipped]
> 
>> Thank you for looking into it. Yes, that is the publication. Also, thank you 
>> for posting "The post-truth prophets"[0]. Sean Illing manages to get at the 
>> heart of what I find myself defending regarding postmodernism[1]. You may 
>> remember that some months ago, I was on a "Bergson through the eyes of 
>> Deleuze"-kick. Bergson, a prominent philosopher of mind, space, and time (in 
>> his time) was driven completely underground by Einstein, Russell, and other 
>> promoters of relativity theory. By many historical accounts, the work of 
>> Bergson could have been all but forgotten had Deleuze not resurrected his 
>> ideas, and especially their applications to film. Crucial to Bergson's 
>> conception was to recognize time and space as explicitly different kinds of 
>> things, and via his admiration of Riemann, sought out but never found a 
>> mathematical treatment for his ideas. Listening to Wolfram's interview on 
>> Sean Carroll's podcast[2], I cannot help but wonder if this recent work is a 
>> step toward Bergson's
>> dream. Around 42 minutes into the interview, SeanC and SteveW record:
>>
>> """
>> 0:41:26.7 SW: That is, you might have thought to get something as 
>> computationally sophisticated as us humans with our brains and all this kind 
>> of thing you need the whole process that’s led to us humans. But what the 
>> principle of computational equivalence says is that’s not true. Even these 
>> very simple systems with very simple rules can do it, and that has… Well, it 
>> has lots of consequences. If you’re worrying about extraterrestrial 
>> intelligence, for example, that tells you it’s everywhere. It’s a question 
>> of whether we are sufficiently aligned with that intelligence to be able to 
>> recognize it as something that, for example, has purposes that we can 
>> understand as sort of human-like purposes. And I think this idea 
>> intelligence requires liquid water is almost laughable.
>>
>> 0:42:10.2 SC: Right. [laughter] I’m on your side when it comes to that, but 
>> intelligence might require spacetime in some sense, so let’s at least try to 
>> get that. Is this naïve picture that I have in mind, where you have the 
>> hypergraph, you update, it’s a discrete updating… Can I think of the graph 
>> at any one update as space and the update itself as time, or is that too 
>> simple-minded?
>>
>> 0:42:35.3 SW: Okay, so it gets a little complicated. And in fact, the 
>> complexity that arises is quantum mechanics, I think. And so it’s, in a 
>> sense, you try and make it that simple and you… Okay, so the basic point is, 
>> the rule says if you have a lump of atoms of space that are connected in 
>> this way, transform it into a lump that’s connected in this other way, and 
>> it… Basically the rule just says that’s what you do. It doesn’t say where 
>> you do it, it doesn’t say when you do it, it’s just any time there’s a lump 
>> that looks like this, you can transform it into a lump that looks like that.
>>
>> 0:43:11.0 SW: And so those transformations can be happening all over this 
>> hypergraph. And so it is not at all obvious that… That is, the only thing 
>> that’s defined is these can happen. The question of when they happen, what 
>> counts as the sort of simultaneity surface, what counts is that moment in 
>> time, is something that’s really in the eye of the observer.
>>
>> 0:43:31.7 SC: Okay. But the updated graph is supposed to represent spacetime 
>> and the things within it, or is it a more subtle map there?
>>
>> 0:43:37.9 SW: No, no. So at any given… What’s happening is this graph is 
>> getting updated, and there are lots of little places where it can get 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

No, thanks very much for the transcript. Time as updating is an old concept. 
So, it's not clear to me that they're talking about anything new *there*. But 
they sound a bit wrong to me in decoupling the updating from the *subgraph* 
that gets updated as well as any kind of causal cascade of updating 
(dependent/sequential vs. independent/parallel). You can't separate dependency 
from the graph. So if there is a dependent update in one part of the graph, 
dependent on another part of the graph, then the updating cannot be independent 
of the graph. I.e. space and time are not independent and, perhaps, not 
different things at all. Perhaps progressive updating is *merely* that the 
graph has large scale cycles? So, an updating over there drives an updating 
here, which drives an updating over there?

Of course, they're way smarter than me. So I'm sure there's some deep 
literature somewhere and I should, but probably won't, RTFM.


On 7/23/21 6:32 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> Anyway, I hope including the transcript here was not too boring.

[reordered rather than snipped]

> Thank you for looking into it. Yes, that is the publication. Also, thank you 
> for posting "The post-truth prophets"[0]. Sean Illing manages to get at the 
> heart of what I find myself defending regarding postmodernism[1]. You may 
> remember that some months ago, I was on a "Bergson through the eyes of 
> Deleuze"-kick. Bergson, a prominent philosopher of mind, space, and time (in 
> his time) was driven completely underground by Einstein, Russell, and other 
> promoters of relativity theory. By many historical accounts, the work of 
> Bergson could have been all but forgotten had Deleuze not resurrected his 
> ideas, and especially their applications to film. Crucial to Bergson's 
> conception was to recognize time and space as explicitly different kinds of 
> things, and via his admiration of Riemann, sought out but never found a 
> mathematical treatment for his ideas. Listening to Wolfram's interview on 
> Sean Carroll's podcast[2], I cannot help but wonder if this recent work is a 
> step toward Bergson's
> dream. Around 42 minutes into the interview, SeanC and SteveW record:
> 
> """
> 0:41:26.7 SW: That is, you might have thought to get something as 
> computationally sophisticated as us humans with our brains and all this kind 
> of thing you need the whole process that’s led to us humans. But what the 
> principle of computational equivalence says is that’s not true. Even these 
> very simple systems with very simple rules can do it, and that has… Well, it 
> has lots of consequences. If you’re worrying about extraterrestrial 
> intelligence, for example, that tells you it’s everywhere. It’s a question of 
> whether we are sufficiently aligned with that intelligence to be able to 
> recognize it as something that, for example, has purposes that we can 
> understand as sort of human-like purposes. And I think this idea intelligence 
> requires liquid water is almost laughable.
> 
> 0:42:10.2 SC: Right. [laughter] I’m on your side when it comes to that, but 
> intelligence might require spacetime in some sense, so let’s at least try to 
> get that. Is this naïve picture that I have in mind, where you have the 
> hypergraph, you update, it’s a discrete updating… Can I think of the graph at 
> any one update as space and the update itself as time, or is that too 
> simple-minded?
> 
> 0:42:35.3 SW: Okay, so it gets a little complicated. And in fact, the 
> complexity that arises is quantum mechanics, I think. And so it’s, in a 
> sense, you try and make it that simple and you… Okay, so the basic point is, 
> the rule says if you have a lump of atoms of space that are connected in this 
> way, transform it into a lump that’s connected in this other way, and it… 
> Basically the rule just says that’s what you do. It doesn’t say where you do 
> it, it doesn’t say when you do it, it’s just any time there’s a lump that 
> looks like this, you can transform it into a lump that looks like that.
> 
> 0:43:11.0 SW: And so those transformations can be happening all over this 
> hypergraph. And so it is not at all obvious that… That is, the only thing 
> that’s defined is these can happen. The question of when they happen, what 
> counts as the sort of simultaneity surface, what counts is that moment in 
> time, is something that’s really in the eye of the observer.
> 
> 0:43:31.7 SC: Okay. But the updated graph is supposed to represent spacetime 
> and the things within it, or is it a more subtle map there?
> 
> 0:43:37.9 SW: No, no. So at any given… What’s happening is this graph is 
> getting updated, and there are lots of little places where it can get 
> updated. And you can say, okay, I’m going to consider the graph with this 
> collection of updates having been done. I’m going to consider that as time T 
> equals 0, let’s say. And then another situation you’re going to say, now, I’m 
> going to say this collection of updates is time T 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[thompnickson2]

Jon et al,

If getting access to this paper is still a problem on Monday, let me know and I 
will unleash Clark's reference people on it.  They can do miracles, sometimes. 

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 4:19 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

This one?
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4757-3714-1_3.pdf

I don't think I have special access.

On 7/23/21 1:10 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> So far, what is written above is about as much as I understand. Thank 
> you for the Springer link. Unfortunately, the pay-wall around that 
> work is too rich for my blood. I would love it if someone with access can 
> gift me a copy off-list.


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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Jon Zingale]

Glen,

Thank you for looking into it. Yes, that is the publication. Also, thank
you for posting "The post-truth prophets"[0]. Sean Illing manages to get at
the heart of what I find myself defending regarding postmodernism[1]. You
may remember that some months ago, I was on a "Bergson through the eyes of
Deleuze"-kick. Bergson, a prominent philosopher of mind, space, and time
(in his time) was driven completely underground by Einstein, Russell, and
other promoters of relativity theory. By many historical accounts, the work
of Bergson could have been all but forgotten had Deleuze not resurrected
his ideas, and especially their applications to film. Crucial to Bergson's
conception was to recognize time and space as explicitly different kinds of
things, and via his admiration of Riemann, sought out but never found a
mathematical treatment for his ideas. Listening to Wolfram's interview on
Sean Carroll's podcast[2], I cannot help but wonder if this recent work is
a step toward Bergson's dream. Around 42 minutes into the interview, SeanC
and SteveW record:

"""
0:41:26.7 SW: That is, you might have thought to get something as
computationally sophisticated as us humans with our brains and all this
kind of thing you need the whole process that’s led to us humans. But what
the principle of computational equivalence says is that’s not true. Even
these very simple systems with very simple rules can do it, and that has…
Well, it has lots of consequences. If you’re worrying about
extraterrestrial intelligence, for example, that tells you it’s everywhere.
It’s a question of whether we are sufficiently aligned with that
intelligence to be able to recognize it as something that, for example, has
purposes that we can understand as sort of human-like purposes. And I think
this idea intelligence requires liquid water is almost laughable.

0:42:10.2 SC: Right. [laughter] I’m on your side when it comes to that, but
intelligence might require spacetime in some sense, so let’s at least try
to get that. Is this naïve picture that I have in mind, where you have the
hypergraph, you update, it’s a discrete updating… Can I think of the graph
at any one update as space and the update itself as time, or is that too
simple-minded?

0:42:35.3 SW: Okay, so it gets a little complicated. And in fact, the
complexity that arises is quantum mechanics, I think. And so it’s, in a
sense, you try and make it that simple and you… Okay, so the basic point
is, the rule says if you have a lump of atoms of space that are connected
in this way, transform it into a lump that’s connected in this other way,
and it… Basically the rule just says that’s what you do. It doesn’t say
where you do it, it doesn’t say when you do it, it’s just any time there’s
a lump that looks like this, you can transform it into a lump that looks
like that.

0:43:11.0 SW: And so those transformations can be happening all over this
hypergraph. And so it is not at all obvious that… That is, the only thing
that’s defined is these can happen. The question of when they happen, what
counts as the sort of simultaneity surface, what counts is that moment in
time, is something that’s really in the eye of the observer.

0:43:31.7 SC: Okay. But the updated graph is supposed to represent
spacetime and the things within it, or is it a more subtle map there?

0:43:37.9 SW: No, no. So at any given… What’s happening is this graph is
getting updated, and there are lots of little places where it can get
updated. And you can say, okay, I’m going to consider the graph with this
collection of updates having been done. I’m going to consider that as time
T equals 0, let’s say. And then another situation you’re going to say, now,
I’m going to say this collection of updates is time T equals 1, for
example. And at each one of those time slices, at each one of those sort
of… Well, in the language of physics, spacelike hypersurfaces, that
represents an instantaneous structure of space. But it is somewhat
arbitrary what you consider to be this instantaneous structure of space,
just as it is in general relativity.

0:44:26.9 SC: Well, sure, right. I mean, that’s very familiar from general
relativity, but I’m just saying is the collection of the whole shebang
spacetime, and the things within it?

0:44:35.0 SW: No. It’s just space. A single hypergraph, a single…

0:44:37.6 SC: No, the collection of all the updated hypergraphs, that’s
what I’m asking.

0:44:40.2 SW: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right. The sequence of updates, the
hypergraph together with all its updates is supposed to be spacetime. And
one of the things that is interesting and non-trivial here is most
traditional views of physics have thought of space and time as being the
same kind of thing. In this model they’re really not.

0:45:00.0 SC: Sure.

0:45:00.0 SW: Space is the extent of the spatial hypergraph. Time is the
computational process of updating this hypergraph. So time is the
progression of a computation. Space is just, oh, you follow these

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Jon Zingale]

(reposted for readability)

EricS,

I am sorry to say that with the disruption of the nabble Friam server, and
with my head buried in work, I managed to miss your response to my queries
about your approach to Fisher's Theorem. Thankfully, RogerF brought your
response to my attention. In the last few months since we engaged this
thread, I have steeped myself in some of the hypergraph literature[⍼]. What
follows is an attempt to state what I think I understand and to see how
closely it comes to your own understanding.

My question (at the time) regarding whether hypergraphs make up a topology
was in part my wondering whether we get an algebra from hypergraph parts,
which it seems is how *cospan algebras* enter the picture. The Wolfram
podcast you sent, and to which I am presently listening, is giving me
insight into how and why hypergraphs came to be considered by those
interested in generative/constructor physics. His metaphysical starting
point: that space is *material*, that it has a kind of *local logic of
connectivity*, and that in the Kelvin and Tait tradition we can interpret
all that we see as a manifestation of self-interaction in an ether that we
call space. This monadic/monist description is quite general and so it is
becoming a *Pauling point* in many complexity-oriented theories. A brief
survey includes Petri nets, object recognition, protein interactions, open
Markov networks, chemical reactions, GUI design, automata theory, and
anywhere that one can imagine Conway's madman sitting at an infinitely
sprawling synthesizer patch bay.

One striking feature of these models is that whether or not anything in the
universe actually *happens simultaneously*, we can witness that some of the
details at one timescale are found to be indistinguishable at another. This
suggests that it can be useful to write an algebra of *boxed* interactions,
where we may know nothing about the implementation except for which nodes
to use as inputs and which to use as outputs (though possibly stronger
types). At an extreme, as with the *operad* formalization, one can simply
specify ports.

What seems to make the hypergraph formalization so useful is that we now
have semantics for these things, whether *decorated* or *structured*
cospans. In effect, this means that we get functors that not only *name*
ports through the typical unit adjunction (giving rise to all the familiar
play of adjoint relationships and the tracing of natural equivalences) but
also whose domain can be dynamical. This is especially wonderful if you
want the *names for things* and the *things you name* to be made of the *same
stuff* and without concern for whether or not things are simply points "way
down there" somewhere.

This week, through work, I met a researcher whose recent work concerns
long-timescale dynamics (was it milliseconds?). She studies protein
self-interactions at various stages of denaturing. I left the conversation
with the sense that *behavioral classification* of proteins is important
and that being able to identify some small *generative germ* of probable
interactions is key. It seems to me that this is another place where it
might be interesting to investigate via a hypergraph approach. There, we
see that the *names* are effectively the internal dynamics of these core
interactions, that *composability* of interactions corresponds to an
algebra of names, and that all of the above can be situated harmoniously
enough in a computational context.

So far, what is written above is about as much as I understand. Thank you
for the Springer link. Unfortunately, the pay-wall around that work is too
rich for my blood. I would love it if someone with access can gift me a
copy off-list.

Cheers,
Jon

[⍼] For interested lurkers, I have compiled a list of papers that I found
helpful in getting up to speed with hypergraphs:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.04630.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1704.02051.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.03601.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.08304.pdf

Embarrassingly enough, I simply needed to read a little further in Spivak
and Fong ;)
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

This one?
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4757-3714-1_3.pdf

I don't think I have special access.

On 7/23/21 1:10 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> So far, what is written above is about as much as I understand. Thank you for
> the Springer link. Unfortunately, the pay-wall around that work is too rich 
> for
> my blood. I would love it if someone with access can gift me a copy off-list.


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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Jon Zingale]

EricS,

I am sorry to say that with the disruption of the nabble Friam server, and
with my head buried in work, I managed to miss your response to my queries
about
your approach to Fisher's Theorem. Thankfully, RogerF brought your response
to
my attention. In the last few months since we engaged this thread, I have
steeped
myself in some of the hypergraph literature[⍼]. What follows is an attempt
to
state what I think I understand and to see how closely it comes to your own
understanding.

My question (at the time) regarding whether hypergraphs make up a topology
was
in part my wondering whether we get an algebra from hypergraph parts, which
it
seems is how cospan algebras enter the picture. The Wolfram podcast you
sent,
and to which I am presently listening, is giving me insight into how and why
hypergraphs came to be considered by those interested in generative physics.
His metaphysical starting point: that space is *material*, that it has a
kind
of local *logic of connectivity*, and that in the Kelvin and Tait tradition
we can
interpret all that we see as a manifestation of self-interaction in the
ether
that we call space. This monadic/monist description is quite general and so
it
is becoming a *Pauling point* in many complexity-oriented theories. A brief
survey includes Petri nets, object recognition, protein interactions, open
Markov
networks, chemical reactions, GUI design, automata theory, and anywhere
that one
can imagine Conway's madman sitting at an infinitely sprawling synthesizer
patch
bay.

One striking feature of these models is that whether or not anything in the
universe actually happens *simultaneously*, we can witness that some of the
details at one timescale are found to be indistinguishable at another. This
suggests that it can be useful to write an algebra of *boxed* interactions,
where we may know nothing about the implementation except for which nodes
to use as inputs and which to use as outputs (though possibly stronger
types).
At an extreme, as with the operad formalization, one can simply specify
ports.

What seems to make the hypergraph formalization so useful is that we *now*
have
semantics for these things, whether decorated or structured cospans. In
effect,
this means that we get functors that not only *name* ports through the
typical
unit adjunction (giving rise to all the familiar play of adjoint
relationships
and the tracing of natural equivalences), but also whose domains can be
dynamical.
This is especially wonderful if you want the names for things and the
things you
name to be made of the same stuff and without concern for whether or not
things
are simply points "way down there" somewhere.

This week, through work, I met a woman whose recent work concerns
long-timescale
dynamics (was it milliseconds?). She studies protein self-interactions at
various
stages of denaturing. I left the conversation with the sense that behavioral
classification of proteins is important and that being able to identify
some small
"generative germ" of probable interactions is key. It seems to me that this
is
another place where it might be interesting to investigate via a hypergraph
approach. There, we see that the *names* are effectively the internal
dynamics of
these core interactions, that *composability* of interactions corresponds
to an
algebra of names, and that all of the above can be situated harmoniously
enough
in a computational context.

So far, what is written above is about as much as I understand. Thank you
for
the Springer link. Unfortunately, the pay-wall around that work is too rich
for
my blood. I would love it if someone with access can gift me a copy
off-list.

Cheers,
Jon

[⍼] For interested lurkers, I have compiled a list of papers that I found
helpful in getting up to speed with hypergraphs:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.04630.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1704.02051.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.03601.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.08304.pdf

Embarrassingly, I simply needed to read a little further in Spivak and Fong
;)
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Jon, hi,

I have owed you a response for a long time.  I think I kept imagining that, if 
I waited long enough, I would learn enough about a couple of things you asked 
to be able to understand the questions and perhaps answer usefully.  At this 
stage I think I am giving up any systematic hope of learning anything, and will 
consider myself lucky when random accidents result in my having learned 
something, which I find out about after the fact.  

What triggers my answer today is a specific question that was in some other 
email by you that I haven’t found, about what hypergraphs are and whether they 
are “a topology”, as I think you said it.  I didn’t understand the question, I 
think because I don’t have a mathematician’s familiarity for just what scope 
the term “topology” is allowed to cover.  So I know a few things from 
coursework, but they are just specific cases.  A friend has tried to get me to 
read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Topology-Through-Inquiry-AMS-Textbooks/dp/1470452766 

which one of his junior colleagues is trying to walk him through to get him to 
understand a bit better.  Someday I will give time to properly read in it….

Anyway, what came up today was a Sean Carroll interview with Wolfram, which 
fronts hypergraphs as Wolfram’s base-level abstraction.  It is a couple hours 
long, so I will listen to it when I have a couple hours….
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2021/07/12/155-stephen-wolfram-on-computation-hypergraphs-and-fundamental-physics/
 

Maybe Wolfram will provide a more compact sense of the “why” and not just the 
definition.  The little bit, of general reading, that I tried to do but did not 
need for my particular applications, was in this:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-3714-1_3 


For me, a hypergraph is just a natural representation for a variety of models 
of transitions that involve joint transformations.  I think there is another 
way of capturing dualities between states and transitions in what are called 
“bond graphs”, which it turns out Alan Perelson did some work on when he was 
young.  I think various projections of the even larger generality permitted 
within bond graphs will reduce you to hypergraph models of the relation of 
states to transitions.  As I would ordinarily use the term, a hypergraph could 
be said to “have” a topology in the usual discrete sense of characterizing 
types of nodes and links and then giving a table with their adjacencies.  But I 
don’t know what it means to say it “is” a topology.  Apologies that I do not 
know how to engage better with what you are trying to get me to understand.

Your other email that I saved because I hadn’t answered follows, so I will try 
to do that one now too.  I will clip and lard, in reply below:

> On May 6, 2021, at 1:44 AM, jon zingale  wrote:

> 1. Food webs were analyzed as weighted graphs with the obvious Markov
> chain interpretation[ρ]. Each edge effectively summarizing the complex
> predator-prey interactions found at level 2, but without the plethora
> of ODEs to solve.
> 
> 2. N-species Lotka-Volterra, while being a jumble of equations, offered
> dynamics. Here, one could get insight into how the static edge values
> of level 1 were in fact fluctuating values in n-dimensional phase
> space. But still, one is working with an aggregate model where species
> is summarized wholly by population count.

> 2'. "There is still an algebra of operation of reactions, but it is
> simpler than the algebra of rules, and mostly about counting."
> 
> I am not entirely sure that I follow the distinction. Am I far off in
> seeing an analogy here to the differences found between my one and two
> above?

I don’t think that relation, but one that goes in the other direction from 
heterogeneity to homogenetty.  I will say the specific thing I mean, because 
those last few words could have meant anything:

The order-of-application dependence in rules seems to me capable of vast 
diversity of kinds.  Rules perform changes of patterns in context, but the 
presence of the context as part of that relation implies that rules are also 
creative.  To be specific: in chemistry, which is the best-constrained case, a 
rule takes a collection of atomic centers and a bond configuration, keeps the 
atomic centers, and replaces the initial bond configuration with some new one.  
But these motifs of atoms and bond configurations occur within the context of 
entire molecules, which can contain much else besides the part that the rule is 
conditioned on or transforms.  So by changing some bonds in a molecule and 
preserving the rest of the molecule, the rule actually can create entirely new 
patterns that draw partly on the 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[jon zingale]

You're right ;) That is also one of my favorite facts about Darwin.



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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[thompnickson2]

Jon,

 

Mostly your comments were out of my league.  

 

However, one probably irrelevant fragment caught my eye.

 

While Lamarckism wasn't right for Darwin… .

 

Darwin always was a Lamarckian and became ever more so with every passing 
edition of the Origin. My favorite question in Biology orals was, “Who was the 
most famous Lamarckian?”  

 

I think you could say, with out contradiction

 

While Lamarckism isn’t right for most contemporary  Darwinians… .

 

 

… but evern that is becoming less true.  

 

I think you are talking about Weismann and Weismann’s Barrier 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weismann_barrier> ?  Lamarckism was definitely 
not right for Weisman. 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 10:45 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

 

EricS,

 

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful response. Your 'three levels'

project is interesting to me and reminds me (even if only tangentially) of an 
analysis I worked on regarding food webs, n-species Lotka-Volterra, and ABMs. I 
wanted to clarify for myself what each level of analysis offered or bracketed 
relative to one another. There:

 

1. Food webs were analyzed as weighted graphs with the obvious Markov chain 
interpretation[ρ]. Each edge effectively summarizing the complex predator-prey 
interactions found at level 2, but without the plethora of ODEs to solve.

 

2. N-species Lotka-Volterra, while being a jumble of equations, offered 
dynamics. Here, one could get insight into how the static edge values of level 
1 were in fact fluctuating values in n-dimensional phase space. But still, one 
is working with an aggregate model where species is summarized wholly by 
population count.

 

3. ABMs, in theory, ought to be the whole story of individuals located in space 
and time. There the agents (a lynx, say) 'decides' what to eat based, perhaps, 
on what is most readily available. But as everyone on the list knows, analysis 
at such a fine-grained scale is simply a mess.

 

I never did get as far with the analysis as I would have liked, and I never got 
the chance to share my findings, so yeah, thanks for the tangential 
opportunity, here and now, to say just this much.

 

1'. "site-rewrite rules in Walter Fontana’s site-graph abstractions"

 

Fleshing out some of your references, I found this Fontana paper[σ].

As you suggest, the style is fairly straightforward category theory.

Site-graphs and their morphisms form a well-defined category and a number of 
universal constructions (push-outs, pullbacks, cospans,...) are used to analyze 
the algebra and to establish its logic.

 

2'. "There is still an algebra of operation of reactions, but it is simpler 
than the algebra of rules, and mostly about counting."

 

I am not entirely sure that I follow the distinction. Am I far off in seeing an 
analogy here to the differences found between my one and two above? I would 
love to have a facility with stochastic techniques like these, but I most 
likely will need to remain a spectator for the rest of my days. Occasionally, I 
meet LANL folk that can talk Feller and Fokker with ease, and I am always 
jealous. It would be great to even have a better understanding of where Lie 
groups (something I can at least think about) meet the stochastic world.

 

3'. "So the state space is just a lattice. The “generator” from Level 2 is the 
generator of stochastic processes over this state space, and it is where 
probability distributions live."

 

Please write more on this. By 'just a lattice' do you mean integer-valued on 
account of the counts being so? Is the state space used to some extent, like a 
modulii/classifying space, for characterizing the species of reactions? I feel 
the fuzziest on how this level and the 2nd relate.

 

I am thankful to have had drinks with Artemy on a number of occasions, though I 
am embarrassed to have never asked him to blow my mind, as he could so easily 
have done.

 

I am working, slowly, through Valiant's discussion of evolvability problems 
regarding monotone disjunction and parity. I will hopefully have more to say 
soon. One thing that stands out for me is the idea that Lamarck could be so 
right, but about the wrong thing, a concept in search of a problem. While 
Lamarckism wasn't right for Darwin, it was fine for perceptrons.

 

"""

If that intuition is valid, then the only things Selection could ever rescue 
from chaos become those that get canalized into these ur- developmental 
“programs”, with defined roles for genes, and merely allelic variation within 
each role. I would like to find a formal way to frame that assertion as a 
question and then solve it.

"""

 

Yes, that would be very exciting.

 

Cheers,

Jon

 

ps. I wrote Nick and Frank about a 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[jon zingale]

EricS,

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful response. Your 'three levels'
project is interesting to me and reminds me (even if only tangentially)
of an analysis I worked on regarding food webs, n-species Lotka-Volterra,
and ABMs. I wanted to clarify for myself what each level of analysis
offered or bracketed relative to one another. There:

1. Food webs were analyzed as weighted graphs with the obvious Markov
chain interpretation[ρ]. Each edge effectively summarizing the complex
predator-prey interactions found at level 2, but without the plethora
of ODEs to solve.

2. N-species Lotka-Volterra, while being a jumble of equations, offered
dynamics. Here, one could get insight into how the static edge values
of level 1 were in fact fluctuating values in n-dimensional phase
space. But still, one is working with an aggregate model where species
is summarized wholly by population count.

3. ABMs, in theory, ought to be the whole story of individuals located
in space and time. There the agents (a lynx, say) 'decides' what to eat
based, perhaps, on what is most readily available. But as everyone on
the list knows, analysis at such a fine-grained scale is simply a mess.

I never did get as far with the analysis as I would have liked, and I
never got the chance to share my findings, so yeah, thanks for the
tangential opportunity, here and now, to say just this much.

1'. "site-rewrite rules in Walter Fontana’s site-graph abstractions"

Fleshing out some of your references, I found this Fontana paper[σ].
As you suggest, the style is fairly straightforward category theory.
Site-graphs and their morphisms form a well-defined category and a
number of universal constructions (push-outs, pullbacks, cospans,...)
are used to analyze the algebra and to establish its logic.

2'. "There is still an algebra of operation of reactions, but it is
simpler than the algebra of rules, and mostly about counting."

I am not entirely sure that I follow the distinction. Am I far off in
seeing an analogy here to the differences found between my one and two
above? I would love to have a facility with stochastic techniques like
these, but I most likely will need to remain a spectator for the rest
of my days. Occasionally, I meet LANL folk that can talk Feller and
Fokker with ease, and I am always jealous. It would be great to even
have a better understanding of where Lie groups (something I can at
least think about) meet the stochastic world.

3'. "So the state space is just a lattice. The “generator” from Level 2
is the generator of stochastic processes over this state space, and it
is where probability distributions live."

Please write more on this. By 'just a lattice' do you mean integer-valued
on account of the counts being so? Is the state space used to some
extent, like a modulii/classifying space, for characterizing the
species of reactions? I feel the fuzziest on how this level and the
2nd relate.

I am thankful to have had drinks with Artemy on a number of occasions,
though I am embarrassed to have never asked him to blow my mind, as he
could so easily have done.

I am working, slowly, through Valiant's discussion of evolvability
problems regarding monotone disjunction and parity. I will hopefully
have more to say soon. One thing that stands out for me is the idea
that Lamarck could be so right, but about the wrong thing, a concept
in search of a problem. While Lamarckism wasn't right for Darwin, it
was fine for perceptrons.

"""
If that intuition is valid, then the only things Selection could ever
rescue from chaos become those that get canalized into these ur-
developmental “programs”, with defined roles for genes, and merely
allelic variation within each role. I would like to find a formal way to
frame that assertion as a question and then solve it.
"""

Yes, that would be very exciting.

Cheers,
Jon

ps. I wrote Nick and Frank about a dream a day or two before your
post, where I found myself sitting with a figure that kept morphing
between Chris Kempes and Marcus. The figure was attempting to explain
a Turing complete ball game to me. I appreciate the synchronicity.

[ρ] Here, I mostly followed Levine's approach to computing trophic level.
  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/002251938090288X

[σ] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1901.00592.pdf



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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Jon, hi and thank you,

So, I am not going to be knowledgeable or sophisticated enough to have a 
conversation with you as an equal on computational complexity classes and 
algorithms.  I can tell you what I was hoping to take from Valiant, on the 
assumption that it is compatible with the current best understanding of 
complexity classification of problems.  If I say things that, through lack of 
technical understanding, stand for qualitatively wrong assertions, please 
correct if you are willing to.

I guess there are topics here that could be discussed partly disconnected, and 
then I have to recall why I brought them up together.  I’ll start with the 
disconnected.

> On Apr 27, 2021, at 1:46 PM, jon zingale  wrote:
> 
> """
> I like what Leslie Valiant has to say in PAC, as a way of framing the issues, 
> even though I know he is a punching bag for the geneticists because of 
> various things they understand as important that he isn’t trying to 
> understand deeply or deal with. I don’t care that he had limitations; the 
> question for me is whether there is a good insight that could be developed 
> further.
> What I intend to suggest above is that the lifecycle/hypergraph abstraction 
> is a more expressive class of formal models within which one can pose such 
> problems, and we should be able to generate more interesting answers by using 
> it.
> """
> 
> There are many references above to investigate, and so far I have only begun 
> to engage with some. I am preparing to read your preprint 
> ,
>  and I have managed to track down a copy of Valiant's PAC. Two notable ideas 
> Valiant raises are:
> 
> 
> 0. Membership to a complexity class as real: A machine is identified with the 
> nature of its computation and not necessarily the fine details of its 
> instantiation. For instance, fine details in the case of biology could be 
> every aspect of its being in the world. I am reminded of the philosophical 
> problems associated with identity tracing, as well as a certain empiricist 
> perspective that days like today are in some sense more real than today. 
> Valiant mentions that the universality of Turing's machine is the stable 
> feature that ultimately matters, that a machine ought to be considered "the 
> same" under perturbation of its parts so long as what it does computationally 
> remains invariant.
> The slipperiness of notions like "remaining computationally invariant" and 
> "perturbation of its parts" seem to be hotly debatable locales. In the spirit 
> of Ackley's robust algorithms, perturbations of a quick-sort rapidly lead to 
> nonviable algorithms, while bubble-sort can remain identifiable under 
> significant perturbation. Additionally, as with genetics, there is the 
> possibility of identifying perturbations (mutations) as an indispensable part 
> of the organism. This kind of analysis does leave some questions open. Should 
> we (by the thesis) consider a BPP-classed algorithm to be the same under 
> perturbation when it becomes both determined and its expected time complexity 
> remains invariant?
> 
For definiteness, I will have in mind some problem class with constant 
structural description and a scaling variable, such as 3-sat, that is NP.  I 
understand that classification to mean that, over all ordinary discrete-step 
solution algorithms with some bound on their parallelism in relation to the 
system size, no algorithm will certainly find a solution to an arbitrary 
instance with a time cost in a smaller class than exhaustive elaboration — 
meaning exponential in the problem size (even if the exponent is smaller than 
exhaustive elaboration).  Compare that then to some other problem class that is 
simpler, P or some sufficiently low order polynomial, or whatever.

What I hear Valiant trying to get at with his “learnable” functions is an 
assertion about how reinforcement learning can either produce a solution or 
contradiction itself to an arbitrary instance, or somehow be mapped to or 
select an algorithm that can do that.  I understand his claim to be that, if 
the problem class is of sufficiently low complexity, reinforcement can obtain 
solutions almost-surely within some time bound, but if the problem is NP, 
reinforcement cannot (directly, or by way of selecting some implementation of 
an algorithm), produce solutions.  I am not sure I know “precisely" what the 
claim is.  Of course it could not produce a solution in less than exponential 
time cost, by the stipulation that the problem is NP.  So to be saying that the 
problem is not “learnable”, I assume Valiant is asserting that reinforcement 
could not arrive at a solution almost-surely, at all.  

I’m not sure, even if the above is okay to say, it makes claims about 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[jon zingale]

"""
I like what Leslie Valiant has to say in PAC, as a way of framing theissues,
even though I know he is a punching bag for the geneticistsbecause of
various things they understand as important that he isn’ttrying to
understand deeply or deal with.  I don’t care that he hadlimitations; the
question for me is whether there is a good insightthat could be developed
further.
What I intend to suggest above is that the lifecycle/hypergraphabstraction
is a more expressive class of formal models within which onecan pose such
problems, and we should be able to generate moreinteresting answers by using
it.
"""
There are many references above to investigate, and so far I have onlybegun
to engage with some. I am preparing to read  yourpreprint
  ,
and I have managed to track down a copy of Valiant's PAC.Two notable ideas
Valiant raises are:
0. Membership to a complexity class as /real/: A machine is identified with
the nature of its computation and not necessarily the fine details of its
instantiation. For instance, fine details inthe case of biology could be
/every/ aspect of its being in the world.I am reminded of the philosophical
problems associated with /identitytracing/, as well as a certain empiricist
perspective that /days liketoday/ are in some sense /more real/ than
/today/. Valiantmentions that the /universality/ of Turing's machine /is/
the stablefeature that ultimately matters, that a machine ought to be
considered"the same" under perturbation of its parts so long as what it
does/computationally/ remains invariant.
The slipperiness of notions like "remaining computationally invariant"and
"perturbation of its parts" seem to be hotly debatable locales.In the spirit
of Ackley's robust algorithms,perturbations of a quick-sort rapidly lead to
nonviable algorithms, whilebubble-sort can remain identifiable under
significantperturbation. Additionally, as with genetics, there is the
possibility ofidentifying perturbations (mutations) as an indispensable
/part/of the organism. This kind of analysis does leave some questions
open.Should we (by the thesis) consider a BPP-classed algorithm to be the
same under perturbationwhen it becomes both /determined/ and its /expected
time complexity/remains invariant?
1. Scaffolding in protein expression networks: Here, Valiant suggests a 
protein level analogy to Nick's white smokers.  Chaperone proteins
  , atthe very least, are
known to participate structurally in the process oferror correction, namely
correcting errors in folding. I amreminded of recent dives into other
aspects of protein dynamics suchas  allosteric signaling
  . I can only imagine
the computational libertiespresent for scaffolding when considering
variation in PH (as narrow asit allows) or temperature. In these musings, I
am reminded of the inhibitory  (epiphenomenal?) role of the dictionary in
the functioning of LZW datacompression.
That Glen found your paper "positively pornographic" is high praise.I hope
to find the time to take the dive myself. In the meantime, I would love to
hear more about your ideas concerning graphical models, as it is a place I
have thought a bit about.



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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Hi Glen,

Thank you, and yes, I did submit it somewhere.  There are a couple of different 
evolution journals where this kind of subject is published.  They all have 
length limits — 140 characters or something like that — which this thing 
exceeds.  I don’t even remember which of them I sent to, because their formats 
turn out to be quite similar.  Mostly I was trying to get it before the eyes of 
a couple of people whom I hope the editor will ask as reviewers, who I think 
will immediately understand what the move is, because it is so close to where 
they have already come, and that they will agree that it is a kind of natural 
completion of what Price and also they were trying to do.  After that the 
editor will reject it, but I can ask for advice on whether there is anyplace it 
could be published, without violating the conditions of review.  

I am horrible at timeliness on reviews, and during COVID, everyone else has 
become uncommonly bad as well.  So it could be years before I hear anything.  I 
have another paper that is now out for about 30 months to a Springer journal; 
this one has only been out maybe 8 or 10 months.

Many thanks,

Eric


> On Mar 25, 2021, at 8:02 PM, ⛧ glen  wrote:
> 
> That paper is positively pornographic! Well done.
> 
> If I understand what you're doing, which I most likely don't, the mechanized 
> graphs are an excellent example of some rhetoric I'm currently trying to 
> foist on some unwilling victims (re the "languages" within which we couch 
> hypotheses, and how "language" choice sets a frame/paradigm).
> 
> But they're academics. And I am not. So I'd like to confirm that you've 
> submitted it somewhere, regardless of your expectations of acceptance? I 
> don't need to know where. If so, I'll feel more confident in encouraging them 
> to read it.
> 
> 
> On March 24, 2021 4:46:23 PM PDT, David Eric Smith  
> wrote:
>> I will claim that part of the problem is a bad problem in conceptual
>> delineation in much (not all!) of the community, which the terminology
>> canalizes and makes it hard to escape from.  For part of that I do have
>> something I think is a corrective.  I don’t know if it will ever be
>> accepted anywhere, so I put it on the BioRxiv here:
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.biorxiv.org%2fcontent%2f10.1101%2f2021.02.09.430402v1.abstract=E,1,BJI4v-sKlAKG9TTqIjaeaWW0r---JGH7j68TIOfK62NVQsDk3M1v4LKlGLHYHYl0IGS6JpyKBEFpWW760HkvNqZI01T4whPz2owBEjJEDEpvH3wrgQ,,=1
>> 
>> 
>> 
> -- 
> glen ⛧
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[⛧ glen]

That paper is positively pornographic! Well done.

If I understand what you're doing, which I most likely don't, the mechanized 
graphs are an excellent example of some rhetoric I'm currently trying to foist 
on some unwilling victims (re the "languages" within which we couch hypotheses, 
and how "language" choice sets a frame/paradigm).

But they're academics. And I am not. So I'd like to confirm that you've 
submitted it somewhere, regardless of your expectations of acceptance? I don't 
need to know where. If so, I'll feel more confident in encouraging them to read 
it.


On March 24, 2021 4:46:23 PM PDT, David Eric Smith  wrote:
>I will claim that part of the problem is a bad problem in conceptual
>delineation in much (not all!) of the community, which the terminology
>canalizes and makes it hard to escape from.  For part of that I do have
>something I think is a corrective.  I don’t know if it will ever be
>accepted anywhere, so I put it on the BioRxiv here:
>https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.09.430402v1.abstract
>
>
>
-- 
glen ⛧

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Nick, hi,

I won’t be able to do anything like even a good-faith effort to reply to this 
thread.  The time it would cost me to compose something I wouldn’t either 
disagree with or regret having written will cost me more shame and punishment 
for delinquency than I can budget at the moment.

Your outline flags all good things.  I am not sure whether it provides a 
framework from which to make progress in a community that likes to fight (not 
FRIAM, the evolutionary silverbacks).

I do not claim, at all, to address an encompassing picture or propose a 
strategy that could be worked through to some satisfactory resolution.  I will 
claim that part of the problem is a bad problem in conceptual delineation in 
much (not all!) of the community, which the terminology canalizes and makes it 
hard to escape from.  For part of that I do have something I think is a 
corrective.  I don’t know if it will ever be accepted anywhere, so I put it on 
the BioRxiv here:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.09.430402v1.abstract 


Don’t be concerned yet (or maybe ever) with what I build, but perhaps take it 
as a scaffold through which to see more clearly part of the existing problem, 
which I think is not too hard to correct.  

A good starting foil, which illustrates several of the points in your outline 
with its own internal contradictions, is this one by Lynch:
https://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8597 

His whole thesis is that combinatorial factors aren’t heritable and so can’t be 
selected (the arch-form of which is Williams/Dawkins genic selection; the 
endlessly-nebulous form of which is the Units of Selection chautauqua that will 
never end; I guess Samir Okasha gives as good a version of it as can be found). 
 Yet Lynch ends by saying (somewhere near the bottom of the paper) “so you see, 
we are stuck with admitting that genotypes are the units of selection”, after 
just having said that the arrangement that makes a genotype different from a 
gene isn’t selectable.  

So I say go back a few steps and take a different tack.  Various parts of the 
following are all well handled by George Price, Warren Ewens, or Steve Frank, 
cited by me in the above:
1. Fisher says, distinguish the definition of fitness as a summary statistic, 
from the causal models of sources of fitness that you are trying to estimate 
from samples of that statistic.  Then fitness will never be a tautology. 
2. Fisher’s definition is apportionment of offspring to ancestors by type.  
Immediately that summary statistic doesn’t exist for anything that doesn’t have 
a simple forward branching structure, so we have an unbridgeable conceptual 
inconsistency with Darwin’s differential reproductive success, which treated 
organisms (Steven Gould in SET argues very hard) and didn’t worry about how the 
mechanic of heredity would make that hard to quantify.
3. The only place the two don’t come into conflict are replicators, and voila! 
We have the corner into which the modern synthesis painted evolution, which led 
to excess emphasis on replicators and a lack of system to handle anything that 
isn’t a replicator.
4. Fisher of course mostly worked on diploid organisms, which are not 
replicators, but having introduced differential apportionment precisely to get 
out of the tautology “fit are the fit”, he said “well, if it doesn’t have one 
parent, do additive regressions”.  Shubik would go on an epic rant that if your 
definition of a process depends on which case you are trying to model, it was 
never a definition and you didn’t have either a theory or a formal system.  
(What does “+” mean in this thing you call “addition"?  Well, depends on 
whether you are a republican or a democrat. etc.). All that is entirely right, 
and should be held to forever.  Lewontin would point out that regressions are 
not explanatorily or causally sufficient, since the thing you call fitness 
depends on idiosyncrasies of the sample of the population state.  So you call 
it a property assignable to genes, while ensuring that It never is, except in 
the cases for which you didn’t need it, and even those it mis-handles (in my 
paper; trivial but didactic example from an earlier paper of Ewens and Lessard, 
cited.)
5. So where are we now?  Population genetics has tried to do the best it can 
with this history, and aspires to the quite valid wish for a compact formal 
abstraction that will project out infinite detail but keep a usable 
computational system.  The way it does this — says I — is to call “evolution” a 
Polya’s Urn problem that hands _names_ of entities (genes or other “units of 
selection”) to The Rest of Nature, and nature hands back “fitnesses” for those 
names from a black box.  This separation is essential to their reduction, and 
it then dictates that fitness be the only channel for information flow.

6. So now I can say briefly 

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[thompnickson2]

Thank you EricS for this long and thoughtful answer.  I hope The Gang will 
spend a lot of Friday, mining it out.  What I, of course, appreciate the most 
is your acknowledging that The Problem is in fact A Problem.  That you give me 
some sources to read if I am ever to understand it better, is gravy … good 
thick dark gravy. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 5:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Cc: David Eric Smith 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

 

Nick, hi,

 

I won’t be able to do anything like even a good-faith effort to reply to this 
thread.  The time it would cost me to compose something I wouldn’t either 
disagree with or regret having written will cost me more shame and punishment 
for delinquency than I can budget at the moment.

 

Your outline flags all good things.  I am not sure whether it provides a 
framework from which to make progress in a community that likes to fight (not 
FRIAM, the evolutionary silverbacks).

 

I do not claim, at all, to address an encompassing picture or propose a 
strategy that could be worked through to some satisfactory resolution.  I will 
claim that part of the problem is a bad problem in conceptual delineation in 
much (not all!) of the community, which the terminology canalizes and makes it 
hard to escape from.  For part of that I do have something I think is a 
corrective.  I don’t know if it will ever be accepted anywhere, so I put it on 
the BioRxiv here:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.09.430402v1.abstract

 

Don’t be concerned yet (or maybe ever) with what I build, but perhaps take it 
as a scaffold through which to see more clearly part of the existing problem, 
which I think is not too hard to correct.  

 

A good starting foil, which illustrates several of the points in your outline 
with its own internal contradictions, is this one by Lynch:

https://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8597

His whole thesis is that combinatorial factors aren’t heritable and so can’t be 
selected (the arch-form of which is Williams/Dawkins genic selection; the 
endlessly-nebulous form of which is the Units of Selection chautauqua that will 
never end; I guess Samir Okasha gives as good a version of it as can be found). 
 Yet Lynch ends by saying (somewhere near the bottom of the paper) “so you see, 
we are stuck with admitting that genotypes are the units of selection”, after 
just having said that the arrangement that makes a genotype different from a 
gene isn’t selectable.  

 

So I say go back a few steps and take a different tack.  Various parts of the 
following are all well handled by George Price, Warren Ewens, or Steve Frank, 
cited by me in the above:

1. Fisher says, distinguish the definition of fitness as a summary statistic, 
from the causal models of sources of fitness that you are trying to estimate 
from samples of that statistic.  Then fitness will never be a tautology.  

2. Fisher’s definition is apportionment of offspring to ancestors by type.  
Immediately that summary statistic doesn’t exist for anything that doesn’t have 
a simple forward branching structure, so we have an unbridgeable conceptual 
inconsistency with Darwin’s differential reproductive success, which treated 
organisms (Steven Gould in SET argues very hard) and didn’t worry about how the 
mechanic of heredity would make that hard to quantify.

3. The only place the two don’t come into conflict are replicators, and voila! 
We have the corner into which the modern synthesis painted evolution, which led 
to excess emphasis on replicators and a lack of system to handle anything that 
isn’t a replicator.

4. Fisher of course mostly worked on diploid organisms, which are not 
replicators, but having introduced differential apportionment precisely to get 
out of the tautology “fit are the fit”, he said “well, if it doesn’t have one 
parent, do additive regressions”.  Shubik would go on an epic rant that if your 
definition of a process depends on which case you are trying to model, it was 
never a definition and you didn’t have either a theory or a formal system.  
(What does “+” mean in this thing you call “addition"?  Well, depends on 
whether you are a republican or a democrat. etc.). All that is entirely right, 
and should be held to forever.  Lewontin would point out that regressions are 
not explanatorily or causally sufficient, since the thing you call fitness 
depends on idiosyncrasies of the sample of the population state.  So you call 
it a property assignable to genes, while ensuring that It never is, except in 
the cases for which you didn’t need it, and even those it mis-handles (in my 
paper; trivial but didactic example from an earlier paper of Ewens and Lessard, 
cited.)

5. So

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Vaccinate them or put them in solitary.  

Social butterflies in the time of cholera.
I know why the caged social butterfly sings.
The thorn social butterflies.

The health care workers really are owed more than they can ever be repaid.  
Just as trump is.

Eric


> On Nov 11, 2020, at 4:26 PM, George Duncan  wrote:
> 
> From Wired Science
> Who should get a coronavirus vaccine first?
> It’s likely that health care workers will be the first to get a vaccine when 
> it’s available, and they probably should. Physicists who work on network 
> theory, though, have another way of thinking about vaccine distribution. To 
> reduce the spread quickly, you need to find the social butterflies, the 
> people at the center of networks 
> .
>  If you asked everyone to name a single acquaintance, it’s likely you’ll 
> reach the superspreaders in a community quickly. And if you vaccinate them 
> first, that could halt the spread of coronavirus in record time.
> ***
> Hey, not just physicists. Mathematical sociologists, engineers, 
> statisticians, etc
> 
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com 
> 
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895  
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>  
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and 
> luminous chaos.
> 
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may 
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest 
> power." Joanna Macy.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Roger Critchlow]

WGBH, the PBS local channel, put up a graphic last night showing that 40%
of nurses weren't sure they'd get vaccinated even if it were available.

-- rec --

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 5:32 PM David Eric Smith 
wrote:

> Vaccinate them or put them in solitary.
>
> Social butterflies in the time of cholera.
> I know why the caged social butterfly sings.
> The thorn social butterflies.
>
> The health care workers really are owed more than they can ever be
> repaid.  Just as trump is.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2020, at 4:26 PM, George Duncan  wrote:
>
> From Wired Science
>
> Who should get a coronavirus vaccine first?
>
> It’s likely that health care workers will be the first to get a vaccine
> when it’s available, and they probably should. Physicists who work on
> network theory, though, have another way of thinking about vaccine
> distribution. To reduce the spread quickly, you need to find the social
> butterflies, the people at the center of networks
> .
> If you asked everyone to name a single acquaintance, it’s likely you’ll
> reach the superspreaders in a community quickly. And if you vaccinate them
> first, that could halt the spread of coronavirus in record time.
>
> ***
>
> Hey, not just physicists. Mathematical sociologists, engineers,
> statisticians, etc
>
>
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com
> 
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
> luminous chaos.
>
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
> power." Joanna Macy.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[thompnickson2]

Very nice, Russ. 

 

The abstract is very readable and makes me wish that I could understand what 
follows.  I look foreward to an animated discussion of this paper amongst you 
wizards. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

 

It's available here 
<http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.359.5281=rep1=pdf>
 .

 

-- Russ Abbott   
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

 

 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:13 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

https://www.academia.edu/keypass/cHFjczFFMmZHUDF4em04U0hXMkdDL1IyRmRKRmI4c3VYbWFHY2crL1NxOD0tLW1jS1RtUi9EU0oySmtEck9FeEJCWnc9PQ==--9fbb49188f8eb90cc24a1781a1c49671222e77dd/t/ewjc6-N3UnAUt-baBacR/resource/work/3135365/Automated_search_for_causal_relations_Theory_and_practice?email_work_card=title

 

I hope the above link works for people who aren't Academia members.

 

Multiple times I have mentioned the book "Causation, Prediction, and Search" by 
my colleagues Spirtes, Glymour, and Scheines.  I understand that the prospect 
of reading a long book can be daunting.  Glen, in particular, has expressed his 
preference for articles.  I just skimmed the above paper and realized that it 
gives an excellent and complete overview of the book.  One of the themes is 
"sometimes correlation is causation."  

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Frank Wimberly]

Great.  Thanks Russ and Glen.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 1:37 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙  wrote:

> And here:
>
>
> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en_sdt=0%2C48=Automated+Search+for+Causal+Relations%3A+Theory+and+Practice=
>
> which is helpful because it shows 19 citations. Books aren't daunting.
> They're ossified and not (often) peer reviewed. The citations and
> references are WAY more interesting than the content.
>
> On 8/25/20 12:29 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > It's available here <
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.359.5281=rep1=pdf
> >.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:13 PM Frank Wimberly  > wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.academia.edu/keypass/cHFjczFFMmZHUDF4em04U0hXMkdDL1IyRmRKRmI4c3VYbWFHY2crL1NxOD0tLW1jS1RtUi9EU0oySmtEck9FeEJCWnc9PQ==--9fbb49188f8eb90cc24a1781a1c49671222e77dd/t/ewjc6-N3UnAUt-baBacR/resource/work/3135365/Automated_search_for_causal_relations_Theory_and_practice?email_work_card=title
> >
> > I hope the above link works for people who aren't Academia members.
> >
> > Multiple times I have mentioned the book "Causation, Prediction, and
> Search" by my colleagues Spirtes, Glymour, and Scheines.  I understand that
> the prospect of reading a long book can be daunting.  Glen, in particular,
> has expressed his preference for articles.  I just skimmed the above paper
> and realized that it gives an excellent and complete overview of the book.
> One of the themes is "sometimes correlation is causation."
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Russ Abbott]

It's available here

.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:13 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

>
> https://www.academia.edu/keypass/cHFjczFFMmZHUDF4em04U0hXMkdDL1IyRmRKRmI4c3VYbWFHY2crL1NxOD0tLW1jS1RtUi9EU0oySmtEck9FeEJCWnc9PQ==--9fbb49188f8eb90cc24a1781a1c49671222e77dd/t/ewjc6-N3UnAUt-baBacR/resource/work/3135365/Automated_search_for_causal_relations_Theory_and_practice?email_work_card=title
>
> I hope the above link works for people who aren't Academia members.
>
> Multiple times I have mentioned the book "Causation, Prediction, and
> Search" by my colleagues Spirtes, Glymour, and Scheines.  I understand that
> the prospect of reading a long book can be daunting.  Glen, in particular,
> has expressed his preference for articles.  I just skimmed the above paper
> and realized that it gives an excellent and complete overview of the book.
> One of the themes is "sometimes correlation is causation."
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Frank Wimberly]

My favorite part of flying.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 8:30 AM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> Does it include lessons on how to land the plane?
>
> —Barry
>
> On 12 Aug 2020, at 21:53, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I just got an email from a flight training program offering me a nine month
> course to get a multi engine commercial license. They don't read the Friam
> listsrv, I hope. I'm too old in any case.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Barry MacKichan]

Does it include lessons on how to land the plane?

—Barry

On 12 Aug 2020, at 21:53, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> I just got an email from a flight training program offering me a nine month
> course to get a multi engine commercial license.  They don't read the Friam
> listsrv, I hope.  I'm too old in any case.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Prof David West]

There is a projected shortage of 50,000 commercial pilots by 2030 — assuming 
COVID ever eases off. So, analogous to the fervid recruitment of COBOL 
programmers, they are trying to recruit anyone who has either had a pilot's 
license or a subscription to any kind of flying magazine.

I have a friend with a drug conviction — about the only thing that will 
disqualify you from getting a pilot's license. He has been recruited, with 
assurance that the company will be able to get around the law on that point.

Like you, the day I finished such a course, I would be several years past the 
mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots. (But they will probably ease 
that if the shortage gets bad enough.)

davew


On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, at 7:53 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> I just got an email from a flight training program offering me a nine month 
> course to get a multi engine commercial license.  They don't read the Friam 
> listsrv, I hope.  I'm too old in any case.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[uǝlƃ ☣]

For some reason, the link to Gorski's debunking is messed up in that article. I 
had to go looking for it:  
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2020/05/06/judy-mikovits-pandemic/

You *forced* me to watch Plandemic, too. I'll never get that time back. 8^D

On 5/7/20 3:46 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> This was a nice line
> 
> in an algorithmic tunnel of unreliable sources
> 
> 
> from 
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/07/1001469/facebook-youtube-plandemic-covid-misinformation/

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Roger Critchlow]

This was a nice line

in an algorithmic tunnel of unreliable sources


from
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/07/1001469/facebook-youtube-plandemic-covid-misinformation/

-- rec --

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:08 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> The long con would be to get a semi-trusted agent as a committer.
> Someone that could appear to be a student or a bland mid-level employee but
> is just playing that part.   Being open source, it would be a simple matter
> to anonymously clone it and study it for a while, advising their agent on
> what apparently benign mistakes to make.   (If the employee gets laid off
> for some mistakes that makes it all the more plausible and their agent is
> free and clear.)   Then the sponsoring organization waits for that code to
> spread into other organizations.   With their bugs in place, they have a
> period of exploitation before the bugs are identified.   All it takes for
> that is money and/or extortion.
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Roger Critchlow <
> r...@elf.org>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 2:55 PM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)
>
>
>
> Right, https://www.git-scm.com/docs/git-blame - Show what revision and
> author last modified each line of a file
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:19 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:
>
> Roger,
>
>
>
> You say, "It's already happened more than once.  People, acting as if
> they cared about the code have taken over existing projects when the
> current developer loses interest.  Then they modify the code so it does
> something evil in addition to its original purpose, say stealing bitcoin
> wallet credentials.  Others have submitted packages which were one letter
> typos for trusted packages, with the same sort of surprises hidden in them."
>
>
>
> Isn't this exactly why there is a git history? Version control exists, to
> some extent,
>
> exactly so we can say who has done what and to what effect.
>
>
>
> Jonathan Zingale
>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Marcus Daniels]

The long con would be to get a semi-trusted agent as a committer.   Someone 
that could appear to be a student or a bland mid-level employee but is just 
playing that part.   Being open source, it would be a simple matter to 
anonymously clone it and study it for a while, advising their agent on what 
apparently benign mistakes to make.   (If the employee gets laid off for some 
mistakes that makes it all the more plausible and their agent is free and 
clear.)   Then the sponsoring organization waits for that code to spread into 
other organizations.   With their bugs in place, they have a period of 
exploitation before the bugs are identified.   All it takes for that is money 
and/or extortion.

From: Friam  on behalf of Roger Critchlow 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 2:55 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

Right, https://www.git-scm.com/docs/git-blame - Show what revision and author 
last modified each line of a file

-- rec --

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:19 PM Jon Zingale 
mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Roger,

You say, "It's already happened more than once.  People, acting as if they 
cared about the code have taken over existing projects when the current 
developer loses interest.  Then they modify the code so it does something evil 
in addition to its original purpose, say stealing bitcoin wallet credentials.  
Others have submitted packages which were one letter typos for trusted 
packages, with the same sort of surprises hidden in them."

Isn't this exactly why there is a git history? Version control exists, to some 
extent,
exactly so we can say who has done what and to what effect.

Jonathan Zingale
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Roger Critchlow]

Right, https://www.git-scm.com/docs/git-blame - Show what revision and
author last modified each line of a file

-- rec --

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:19 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> Roger,
>
> You say, "It's already happened more than once.  People, acting as if
> they cared about the code have taken over existing projects when the
> current developer loses interest.  Then they modify the code so it does
> something evil in addition to its original purpose, say stealing bitcoin
> wallet credentials.  Others have submitted packages which were one letter
> typos for trusted packages, with the same sort of surprises hidden in them."
>
> Isn't this exactly why there is a git history? Version control exists, to
> some extent,
> exactly so we can say who has done what and to what effect.
>
> Jonathan Zingale
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ...
>  . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ...  
. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Gillian Densmore]

@nick as to webmail their might be a setting someplace for your webmail so
as you can sort out important or not.(Improtant: Go to FRIAM and Wedtech)
(Not improtant: this is pri dot ncess Leah please send me f i v e bucks so
I can es scape and make your dick yge!.and other variations on the African
Prince Spam)
That's prettymuch standard, Their might be a way to see if earthlinks
webmail does that.
You might like gmail as well it can do that and let you know if a thread on
Friam, and other mail lists was updated.
I don't say you give up you earthlink adress. Only that gmail is free and
you might like it.
Unless you tried it already.


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:47 PM, glen ☣  wrote:

>
> Oooh.  I'm jealous!  I absolutely love the feeling of a newly wiped and
> reinstalled OS.  I do it on my phone all the time ... it would be unwise
> for me to do it on my main 'puter.  But I do it on my laptop sporadically
> just to get that new-puter feelz.
>
> On 04/26/2017 11:32 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> >
> > Hi, everybody,
> >
> > When I woke my computer up this morning it had forgotten everything it
> ever knew about me.  Consequently, the computer will not be a reliable
> means of communication for the foreseeable future.  I will try to monitor
> webmail, but please use phone for any important or timely communication.
> >
> > Sorry about this.
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> > PS: Computer trouble, so receiving mail by webmail only.  Please reply
> to nickthomp...@earthlink.net
>
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Gillian Densmore]

@Glen you and dug can feel free to let me know the joys of the unique
feeling of a sucefull
sudo apt-get dist update --all wich basically does that ) on Mint
I made the mistake of trying that on a (hillariusly) Well Preserveved
computer the only thing it said was: Their's a hard drive, and something
about boot error.
It was a very buitful Grub Crash screen. Tux and Demon(the BSD maskot)
looked quite pleased with themselves to be dancing rather than booting.

@Nick I hesitate to ask who or why you reinstalled...everything on your
computer. And if it was on purpose.
Depending where your stuff is stored it probably take less time than you (I
or anyone else getting a computer going again) suspects.
It definitely feels like forever  in my case because rumaging though 99
projects I may not actually care about and how well I organized stuff is
pretty tedius.


Glen did bring up a good point that something nice about freshly starting a
computer (Os and all)

In all seriousness I hope it goess well to get you computer happy and
purring again.

I wonder if we can make it a thing in friam to label something as NoSubject
when it's:
Oh: my (thing here) can do that?


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:47 PM, glen ☣  wrote:

>
> Oooh.  I'm jealous!  I absolutely love the feeling of a newly wiped and
> reinstalled OS.  I do it on my phone all the time ... it would be unwise
> for me to do it on my main 'puter.  But I do it on my laptop sporadically
> just to get that new-puter feelz.
>
> On 04/26/2017 11:32 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> >
> > Hi, everybody,
> >
> > When I woke my computer up this morning it had forgotten everything it
> ever knew about me.  Consequently, the computer will not be a reliable
> means of communication for the foreseeable future.  I will try to monitor
> webmail, but please use phone for any important or timely communication.
> >
> > Sorry about this.
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> > PS: Computer trouble, so receiving mail by webmail only.  Please reply
> to nickthomp...@earthlink.net
>
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[glen ☣]

Oooh.  I'm jealous!  I absolutely love the feeling of a newly wiped and 
reinstalled OS.  I do it on my phone all the time ... it would be unwise for me 
to do it on my main 'puter.  But I do it on my laptop sporadically just to get 
that new-puter feelz.

On 04/26/2017 11:32 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> 
> Hi, everybody, 
> 
> When I woke my computer up this morning it had forgotten everything it ever 
> knew about me.  Consequently, the computer will not be a reliable means of 
> communication for the foreseeable future.  I will try to monitor webmail, but 
> please use phone for any important or timely communication. 
> 
> Sorry about this. 
> 
> Nick Thompson
> PS: Computer trouble, so receiving mail by webmail only.  Please reply to 
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net


-- 
☣ glen


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Mikhail Gorelkin]

Sorry, it seems I got a virus :-( --Mikhail
 
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Mikhail Gorelkin
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:49 AM
To: fkee...@twcny.rr.com; friam@redfish.com; malone.ger...@gmail.com;
gorel...@gmail.com; jwoodro...@nsphereinc.com; john.ba...@zensemantics.com;
kenn...@loafman.com; krank...@comcast.net; levmuch...@gmail.com;
mac.cl...@ms-strategies.com
Subject: [FRIAM] (no subject)
 
 http://soistfussball.de/zlditxvlq1.html
http://soistfussball.de/zlditxvlq1.html

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Mikhail Gorelkin]

Greg, I did it :-) Thank you, --Mikhail

-Original Message-
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Greg Sonnenfeld
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 2:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

Sounds like its time to change your e-mail password :P

Greg Sonnenfeld



On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Mikhail Gorelkin gorel...@hotmail.com
wrote:
 Sorry, it seems I got a virus :-( --Mikhail



 From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On
Behalf
 Of Mikhail Gorelkin
 Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:49 AM
 To: fkee...@twcny.rr.com; friam@redfish.com; malone.ger...@gmail.com;
 gorel...@gmail.com; jwoodro...@nsphereinc.com;
john.ba...@zensemantics.com;
 kenn...@loafman.com; krank...@comcast.net; levmuch...@gmail.com;
 mac.cl...@ms-strategies.com
 Subject: [FRIAM] (no subject)



 http://soistfussball.de/zlditxvlq1.html

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Jochen Fromm]

What kind of SPAM is this?

-J.

Sent from Android

 Mikhail Gorelkin gorel...@hotmail.com wrote: 

http://saudiautism.com/jkjlksjflaja2.html

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Rikus Combrinck]

 When I return I will try to get back to Rikus's questions.
 This is indeed an excellent and stimulating conversation.

Please do, Erice.  I remain intrigued and look forward to you perspective.

Regards,
Rikus


  From: ERIC P. CHARLES 
  Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 5:34 AM
  To: friam@redfish.com 
  Subject: [FRIAM] (no subject)


  These thoughts are not as well formed as I would like, but I am headed to a 
conference this weekend, so here it goes:

  The rules of the dualistic game (or the idealist game) require us to believe 
that tasting salt involves something fundamentally beyond detecting a property 
of the salt. That additional thing, the thing that is not a property of the 
salt, but that is present within us when we taste salt, is labeled qualia. 
I'm not sure if Nick would be fully on board with this, but I think the logical 
response to this line of thinking is denial of the problem: Tasting salt is 
nothing above and beyond detecting a property of the salt, and thus the entire 
category of phenomenon in question nonsensical. The only reasonable course of 
investigation into saltyness is to try to find out what specific property of 
salt was being detected when something tasted salty. With that information in 
hand, you then say that tasting salt IS being responsive to that aspect of a 
material. Again, if you don't like the behaviorist stuff, just say that 
tasting salt IS experiencing that aspect of the material. 

  As for what seems to remain of the 1st person discussion... It must be 
admitted that knowing requires a knower. However, a first principle of New 
Realism is that no properties of the world get their essential nature from 
being part of the knowledge relationship. Mountains are not made by being known 
as mountains, a horse is exactly what it is whether or not someone knows it is 
a horse, etc. Those examples (hopefully) seem straightforward and 
unproblematic. However, in the same way, whatever it is to be angry, it is 
exactly what it is whether or not someone knows they are angry, etc. Thus, in 
line with the above argument, whatever it is to be salty, it must be something 
about the salty thing... or a perhaps more properly, a property of the thing in 
relation to the taster... but it is definitely not something uniquely about the 
I that is doing the tasting. 

  Have a fun and productive weekend all. When I return I will try to get back 
to Rikus's questions. This is indeed an excellent and stimulating conversation. 

  Thanks all,

  Eric
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Rikus Combrinck]

Eric, I mean.  Typo.  Apologies.

  From: Rikus Combrinck 
  Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:11 AM
  To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)


   When I return I will try to get back to Rikus's questions.
   This is indeed an excellent and stimulating conversation.

  Please do, Erice.  I remain intrigued and look forward to you perspective.

  Regards,
  Rikus
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Stephen Thompson]

Gary is correct on the pron. and explanation of the pasty.   The best 
ones are from a small restaurant in Virginia, MN on da range as they 
say. 
I understood these delectable treats actually started with the Welsh 
miners - something along the lines of the movie How Green Was My Valley
(did I get the title correct?).  And its been 32 years since I was in 
Virginia to eat one.   The impression lasts


Steph T

Gary Schiltz wrote:
You haven't lived until you've eaten a pasty (pronounced PAST EE, and 
not to be confused withthe minimalist apparel worn by certain 
entertainers, so I've been told) on a -20 degree winter day in the 
upper great lakes region. One of the main ingredients is, of course, 
rutabaga. A pasty is sort of like a pot pie, folded over into a half 
moon shape. I've been told they originated with the miners of the 
region, as they were a complete meal that was easy to carry down into 
the mines. Some references: www.pastys.com 
http://www.pastys.com, www.hu.mtu.edu/vup/pasty/recipes.htm 
http://www.hu.mtu.edu/vup/pasty/recipes.htm. Mmm, make mine with 
gravy, eh?!  


;; Gary

On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:



 
Pamela,
 
have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole 
Foods and admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even 
knowingly MET a person who has consmued a rutabaga.
 
Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking them 
that makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps.
 
N
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu mailto:nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Pamela McCorduck]

Cornish pasties loomed large in my family legend: as a young man my  
father always went to Cornwall for holidays from grim Liverpool, where  
my family was situated. He loved to talk about the treat that Cornish  
pasties were. So when I finally visited Cornwall (as full of mines as  
Wales, and with probably an even longer tradition of mining, since the  
Romans bought Cornish tin) I had to try one.


Uhm, I see. Like egg creams and other fond treats of childhood, better  
in the memory than in reality.


And yes, rutabagas were known as swedes in our family. Like sweet  
potatoes? A stretch.


I shop at farmers' markets both in Santa Fe and in New York City (mine  
two blocks away from my home in New York City is open year round). But  
after you've exhausted the root veggies, pickings are mighty slim.  
When I visit the farmers' market in the San Francisco Ferry Building  
at any time of the year, I'm seized with such craven envy that my  
heart stops. This entire thread is to say that the self-righteous way  
Californians force upon us precepts about eating locally (yes, you,  
Alice) is surely well meant, but a sacrifice they don't personally  
have to make.


PMcC



On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Thompson wrote:

Gary is correct on the pron. and explanation of the pasty.   The  
best ones are from a small restaurant in Virginia, MN on da range  
as they say.
I understood these delectable treats actually started with the Welsh  
miners - something along the lines of the movie How Green Was My  
Valley
(did I get the title correct?).  And its been 32 years since I was  
in Virginia to eat one.   The impression lasts


Steph T

Gary Schiltz wrote:


You haven't lived until you've eaten a pasty (pronounced PAST EE,  
and not to be confused withthe minimalist apparel worn by certain  
entertainers, so I've been told) on a -20 degree winter day in  
the upper great lakes region. One of the main ingredients is, of  
course, rutabaga. A pasty is sort of like a pot pie, folded over  
into a half moon shape. I've been told they originated with the  
miners of the region, as they were a complete meal that was easy to  
carry down into the mines. Some references: www.pastys.com, www.hu.mtu.edu/vup/pasty/recipes.htm 
. Mmm, make mine with gravy, eh?!


;; Gary

On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:




Pamela,

have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole  
Foods and admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even  
knowingly MET a person who has consmued a rutabaga.


Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking  
them that makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps.


N



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight can ever be  
made.


Immanuel Kant


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Robert Holmes]

Not puns, but I hope this helps. from Prairie Home Companion 12/31/05:

*Garrison Keillor:* ...brought to you by RCA, the Rutabaga Council of
America, representing America's most under-appreciated vegetable,
rutabagas.

So many people confuse rutabagas with turnips. They're not alike at all.
Rutabagas have a pleasant yellow-orange color, large friendly-looking
leaves, and a smooth dense texture. Turnips are fish-belly white and purple
on top like a bad bruise and have hairy leaves and taste brackish, like
swamp water. Rutabagas are the root crop that any sensible person would
prefer.

Rutabaga — it's suitable for any occasion. Rutabagas' firm yet impetuous
flavor go well with Bordeauxs, Chablis, or even champagne. Use julienned
rutabagas to clear the palate before dessert. Stir-fried rutabagas can bulk
up any Chinese dish. Or how about rutabaga ratatouille. And instead of an
olive in your Martini, why not try a rutabaga wedge.

Rutabaga— it's America's under-utilized vegetable.




On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Nicholas Thompson 
nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:

  Oh please send them to me.

 All six.

 Nick

  Nicholas S. Thompson
 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
 Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/






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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[michel bloch]

Nicholas, I have eaten rutabaga and Jerusalem artichoke during WW II. It was
not good at all. 

Cordialement

Michel Bloch

  33(0)1 46 37 01 93

http://www.mountvernon.fr/Sciences_complexite.htm

  

 

 

  _  

De : friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] De la part
de Nicholas Thompson
Envoyé : dimanche 29 mars 2009 00:21
À : friam@redfish.com
Objet : [FRIAM] (no subject)




 
Pamela, 
 
have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole Foods and
admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even knowingly MET a
person who has consmued a rutabaga. 
 
Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking them that
makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps. 
 
N 
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University ( mailto:nthomp...@clarku.edu nthomp...@clarku.edu)
 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
 
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Pamela McCorduck 
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 3/24/2009 8:15:15 AM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] home gardening
 
 
All good reasons to eat local. But I remind you all that in some parts of
the country, eating local would reduce us to rutabagas for most months of
the winter. I wouldn't like that, and neither would my body.
 
 
 
 
On Mar 23, 2009, at 9:50 PM, peggy miller wrote:
 
 
Bringing food local reduces transportation costs, cuts carbon emissions, and
makes for a healthier diet. Glad to see the White House has decided to have
a huge organic garden (see link below). Makes me realize it is time to get
out there myself (at least pretty soon!) Peggy
 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/dining/20garden.html?_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/dining/20garden.html?_r=1

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at  http://www.friam.org
http://www.friam.org
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
 
 
 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.31/2027 - Release Date: 03/28/09
07:16:00



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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Douglas Roberts]

A half-dozen rutabaga puns spring to mind, which I have thankfully
suppressed.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson 
nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:


  Pamela,

 have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole Foods and
 admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even knowingly MET a
 person who has consmued a rutabaga.

 Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking them that
 makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps.

 N



 Nicholas S. Thompson
 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
 Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/




 - Original Message -
 From: Pamela McCorduck
 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 Sent: 3/24/2009 8:15:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [FRIAM] home gardening


 All good reasons to eat local. But I remind you all that in some parts of
 the country, eating local would reduce us to rutabagas for most months of
 the winter. I wouldn't like that, and neither would my body.




 On Mar 23, 2009, at 9:50 PM, peggy miller wrote:


 Bringing food local reduces transportation costs, cuts carbon emissions,
 and makes for a healthier diet. Glad to see the White House has decided to
 have a huge organic garden (see link below). Makes me realize it is time to
 get out there myself (at least pretty soon!) Peggy

 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/dining/20garden.html?_r=1
 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



 Nicholas S. Thompson
 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
 Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/





 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Pamela McCorduck]

Okay, I answered Nick privately with a non-PC answer, so I may as well  
'fess up to the whole group. I am perfectly willing to pay whatever it  
costs to fly in sweet green produce from better climates. Sorry to be  
such a spoiled brat.


Pamela



On Mar 28, 2009, at 7:42 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

A half-dozen rutabaga puns spring to mind, which I have thankfully  
suppressed.


On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
 wrote:



Pamela,

have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole  
Foods and admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even  
knowingly MET a person who has consmued a rutabaga.


Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking  
them that makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps.


N



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/




- Original Message -
From: Pamela McCorduck
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 3/24/2009 8:15:15 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] home gardening


All good reasons to eat local. But I remind you all that in some  
parts of the country, eating local would reduce us to rutabagas  
for most months of the winter. I wouldn't like that, and neither  
would my body.





On Mar 23, 2009, at 9:50 PM, peggy miller wrote:


Bringing food local reduces transportation costs, cuts carbon  
emissions, and makes for a healthier diet. Glad to see the White  
House has decided to have a huge organic garden (see link below).  
Makes me realize it is time to get out there myself (at least pretty  
soon!) Peggy


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/dining/20garden.html?_r=1

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/






FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight can ever be  
made.


Immanuel Kant


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Gary Schiltz]

You haven't lived until you've eaten a pasty (pronounced PAST EE, and  
not to be confused withthe minimalist apparel worn by certain  
entertainers, so I've been told) on a -20 degree winter day in the  
upper great lakes region. One of the main ingredients is, of course,  
rutabaga. A pasty is sort of like a pot pie, folded over into a half  
moon shape. I've been told they originated with the miners of the  
region, as they were a complete meal that was easy to carry down into  
the mines. Some references: www.pastys.com, www.hu.mtu.edu/vup/pasty/recipes.htm 
. Mmm, make mine with gravy, eh?!


;; Gary

On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:




Pamela,

have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole  
Foods and admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even  
knowingly MET a person who has consmued a rutabaga.


Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking  
them that makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps.


N



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Robert J. Cordingley]

We used to eat swedes (aka rutabaga) when I grew up in England.  Roasted 
it seems it was a little like sweet potatoes. On the original (?) pasty 
see Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_pasty another mining 
connection.


Robert C

Gary Schiltz wrote:
You haven't lived until you've eaten a pasty (pronounced PAST EE, and 
not to be confused withthe minimalist apparel worn by certain 
entertainers, so I've been told) on a -20 degree winter day in the 
upper great lakes region. One of the main ingredients is, of course, 
rutabaga. A pasty is sort of like a pot pie, folded over into a half 
moon shape. I've been told they originated with the miners of the 
region, as they were a complete meal that was easy to carry down into 
the mines. Some references: www.pastys.com 
http://www.pastys.com, www.hu.mtu.edu/vup/pasty/recipes.htm 
http://www.hu.mtu.edu/vup/pasty/recipes.htm. Mmm, make mine with 
gravy, eh?!  


;; Gary

On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:



 
Pamela,
 
have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole 
Foods and admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even 
knowingly MET a person who has consmued a rutabaga.
 
Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking them 
that makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps.
 
N
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu mailto:nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Nicholas Thompson]

Oh please send them to me.  

All six.  

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/




- Original Message - 
From: Douglas Roberts 
To: nickthomp...@earthlink.net;The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee 
Group
Sent: 3/28/2009 5:42:36 PM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)


A half-dozen rutabaga puns spring to mind, which I have thankfully suppressed.


On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
wrote:


Pamela, 

have never eaten a rutabaga. I have stood at the produce in Whole Foods and 
admired their fortitude, but i have actually never even knowingly MET a person 
who has consmued a rutabaga. 

Are you prepared to introduce me to rutabaga's. A way of cooking them that 
makes them taste like pancakes with maple syrup, perhaps. 

N 



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/




- Original Message - 
From: Pamela McCorduck 
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 3/24/2009 8:15:15 AM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] home gardening


All good reasons to eat local. But I remind you all that in some parts of the 
country, eating local would reduce us to rutabagas for most months of the 
winter. I wouldn't like that, and neither would my body.




On Mar 23, 2009, at 9:50 PM, peggy miller wrote:


Bringing food local reduces transportation costs, cuts carbon emissions, and 
makes for a healthier diet. Glad to see the White House has decided to have a 
huge organic garden (see link below). Makes me realize it is time to get out 
there myself (at least pretty soon!) Peggy

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/dining/20garden.html?_r=1

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/





FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[Roger Critchlow]

The discovery channel, http://discoverychannel.ca/mercury, is reported
to be planning a live telecast.

-- rec --

On 11/7/06, Nicholas Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 All,

 Does anybody know where we can get a live feed of Mercury transiting the
 sun, this weds.

 Nick
 Nicholas S. Thompson
 Professor of Psychology and Ethololgy, Clark University
 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 Research Associate, Redfish Group, Santa Fe, NM ([EMAIL PROTECTED])






 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org