Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Obi-Wan]

On 11/27/02 8:53 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the
Cybertrough:

> on 11/27/02 02:27, G-Books at [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:
> 
>> Kyle has a good point in that many people do choose to do "the right
>> thing" by their own standards, and I would agree with him on that.
>> However, he weakens his own point by taking a pool of what his co-workers
>> think is acceptable behavior. That would seem to reduce personal
>> ethics/morals/beliefs to a survey, rather than a standard of any personal
>> kind.
> 
> Kyle H. Hansen (the H may or may not stand for "Holierthanthou") was also
> the man who made the personal decision to put the moral spin on the original
> post, then went on to mention his upbringing and other fascinating tidbits
> of his life, such as the fact that he would be inclined to shoot
> trespassers

He also dropped this thread when it was asked to be dropped.  So drop it.
And yes, if someone broke into my house I *would* shoot them.  I'd aim low,
but I would not hesitate.

P.s. It's not "holierthanthou" it Hunter.  :-p
-- 
==
Kyle H. Hansen
Apple Certified Technician
Apple Solution Expert
Macintosh Server Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==
Jesus saves...but Gretzky grabs the rebound and backhands for a goal


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Laurent Daudelin]

[snip!]

As one of the list nanny on this list, can we put this thread to rest?
Please? I don't see any useful information coming in anymore. If you have
any belief or anything else you want to express, please, email privately to
the related parties, not to the whole list.

"Let's move on, those are not the droids that we're looking for."

Thank you!

-Laurent.
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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Washington, DC, USA
* Usual disclaimers apply *



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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[P . F . Grenier]

On Wednesday, Nov 27, 2002, at 11:53 US/Eastern, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The old tug-o-war 'tween rights and morality, with Kyle's own personal
> twist: morally questionable to file a legally valid though
> conscience-niggling insurance claim, morally correct (laudable?) to 
> exercise
> your legal rights (and your trigger finger) to shoot a trespasser.
>
> And to think Low End Mac just weathered a distasteful "hate campaign" 
> waged
> against the site because of an article bemoaning today's amorality and 
> how
> it leads to citizens shooting citizens.
>
> Chris Houston
>
>

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the function of a "list nanny" to 
step in and keep things on topic and stop controversy from getting out 
of hand? Obi-Wan frequently adds fuel to the fire.


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[csean]

on 11/27/02 02:27, G-Books at [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

> Kyle has a good point in that many people do choose to do "the right
> thing" by their own standards, and I would agree with him on that.
> However, he weakens his own point by taking a pool of what his co-workers
> think is acceptable behavior. That would seem to reduce personal
> ethics/morals/beliefs to a survey, rather than a standard of any personal
> kind.

Kyle H. Hansen (the H may or may not stand for "Holierthanthou") was also
the man who made the personal decision to put the moral spin on the original
post, then went on to mention his upbringing and other fascinating tidbits
of his life, such as the fact that he would be inclined to shoot
trespassers, though not to lose his grace under pressure in such a way that
would risk damaging his powerbook, all the while chanting his personal
mantra "I guess it's just me". And while others chastise him, I only rebuke
him for telling us so tantalizingly little of his story! Or is he cynically
just building up reader interest for his next installment?

And yes, there it is, punctual as winter flu!

>> point the gun, let alone use deadly force with a gun. I do support the
>> right to bear arms, but you better know when and how you can use a
>> weapon. 
> 
> And I do. I understand my rights very well.
> 
>> Insuring a expensive computer is a wise choice or at least one that
>> should be brought up, too bad anyone with a view not agreed on the
>> list, by a few, get such harsh treatment, throwing slurring innuendoes
>> because they disagree.
> 
> It was never a question, but rather a commentary offered by the original
> poster.  No one has disagreed with his actions, but some have questioned the
> morality of asking an insurance company to pay for him dropping a laptop.

The old tug-o-war 'tween rights and morality, with Kyle's own personal
twist: morally questionable to file a legally valid though
conscience-niggling insurance claim, morally correct (laudable?) to exercise
your legal rights (and your trigger finger) to shoot a trespasser.

And to think Low End Mac just weathered a distasteful "hate campaign" waged
against the site because of an article bemoaning today's amorality and how
it leads to citizens shooting citizens.

Chris Houston


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Kathryn Odell]

"The plural of anecdote is NOT data."

Great quote!

Kate


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[MikkiWokk]

In a message dated 11/26/02 3:56:15 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< This is your personal opinion.  He had a Powerbook 500 series and was able
to buy a Pismo on eBay as a result of the insurance settlement.  THAT is not
fair business. Do the math and figure out the dates between the machines.
When was the Pismo introduced and what was a PB 500 series worth at that
time?  About $50.  That's what.  He got over on his insurance company by
about $1500.  That is not right IMHO.  He should have been reimbursed for
what he lost.  A 500 seres Powerbook worth (at the time) about $50. The
400MHz Pismo was released in Feb of 2000.  At that time I was giving 500
series PB's away.  Maybe $50 for a 540c.
 >>

I stayed out of this till now, but I felt the need to make a few comments. 
There are two different types of insurance coverages -- one type covers for 
the fair market value of your loss at the time of the loss. The other type of 
coverage is for replacement coverage. Obviously, the fair market value of the 
Powerbook 500 is virtually non-existent. So clearly, he had replacement 
coverage. I believe that this typically looks at either the original cost of 
the item, or value at the time of it first being insured -- that is the 
starting figure, and it can actually increase over time. This is the type of 
coverage I have on my home, for example. I'd have to read the finer print to 
see how the home's contents are covered. I honestly have not looked at that. 
But the computer in this particular instance was evidently covered at full 
replacement value.


<< It was never a question, but rather a commentary offered by the original
poster.  No one has disagreed with his actions, but some have questioned the
morality of asking an insurance company to pay for him dropping a laptop.
 >>

As the original lister mentioned, he simply related the events as they 
occurred and left coverage decisions up to the insurance company. Insurance 
adjusters' jobs are specifically to evaluate the validity of a claim, and to 
deny whenever possible. Clearly, this claim was within the parameters of the 
coverage or it would have been denied. So morality does not even come into 
the picture. If this is a loss he's covered for, and is paying insurance 
premiums on, that's that. 


<< Let me ask you a question.  If you were typing away on say...a Tibook-500,
and you heard "intruders" ...would you jump up and let the powerbook fall to
the floor? And if so would you ask for your insurance company to pay for it?

Or would you take 1 second, set your powerbook down and pursue the
"intruders?"
 >>

I cannot honestly say how composed I'd be if faced with the possibility of 
intruders to my home. Would I startle and drop whatever I was holding -- even 
if it was my TiBook? I would hope not, but I can't honestly predict how I'd 
react. And again, I would necessarily be begging my insurance company, but if 
I relay the facts, truthfully, and they tell me it's covered, should I say to 
them, "No, forget it, I'll pay for it myself."???

Michelle



---
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804/794-6435, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carbonus.com/23";>www.carbonus.com/23 or http://www.4allnaturals.com/23";>www.4allnaturals.com/23


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[James Rohde]

On 11/26/02 1:39 AM G-Books John Haumann enlightened us by writing:

>Whether a claim is or isn't filed (for a covered 
>peril) is up to the individual.  That's the way it works.  Insurance 
>companies simply offer products with features that customers seem to 
>want -- and are willing (or gullible enough) to pay for -- and the 
>product is priced accordingly.

And it would appear that it is up to the insurance company whether or not 
they will dispute the claim (based on whatever criteria they use).

Kyle wrote:
>I did not call *you* a thief.  All I said was that is seemed a bit like
>theft.  Insurance fraud is a huge problem in this country.
Either one can involve insensitivity to a poster, rather than being 
supportive and helpful for others on the list (which is one of the things 
I thought lists like this were supposed to do). Maybe we could *all* step 
back, take some deep breaths, and return to the main business of this 
list (and forget about blame, defensiveness, etc.)...

Kyle has a good point in that many people do choose to do "the right 
thing" by their own standards, and I would agree with him on that. 
However, he weakens his own point by taking a pool of what his co-workers 
think is acceptable behavior. That would seem to reduce personal 
ethics/morals/beliefs to a survey, rather than a standard of any personal 
kind.

My own personal beliefs include that one should do what is right because 
it is right, rather than because it is/isn't popular (in my country, my 
state, my community, or even my household). But then again, I'm 
old-fashioned in some other ways, too. I can live with that! :-)

Jim Rohde



It is not your business to succeed
but to do right. When you have done
so, the rest lies with God. 
- C.S. Lewis


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Bruce Johnson]

Obi-Wan wrote:

> 
> I asked a group of my friends and co-workers this morning and *all* of them
> thought that it was an accident on your part and that your insurance company
> should not be held responsible. 

How many of them are claims adjusters? How many had read his particular 
policy?

The plural of anecdote is NOT data.

It is perfectly common to have 'accidental damage' riders on insurance 
policies, and perfectly acceptable, reasonable and legal to file a claim 
on that basis.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Marty Lindower]

I vote this thread die a quick death...
-- 
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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[K]

Well Stroked, John
Regards,
Mike K

John Haumann wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 02:55 AM, Obi-Wan wrote:
>
> > Just a hypothetical question.
> >
>
> Many have observed that hypothetical questions are are often about as
> useful as half a pair of pliers, and that they are typically employed
> to distract attention from a  flawed argument whose wheels are coming
> off.
>
> The list appreciates this demonstration for clarity.
>
> --- The 1st Rule of Holes:
>
> If you find yourself in one, stop digging.


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[John Haumann]

On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 02:55 AM, Obi-Wan wrote:

> Just a hypothetical question.
>

Many have observed that hypothetical questions are are often about as 
useful as half a pair of pliers, and that they are typically employed 
to distract attention from a  flawed argument whose wheels are coming 
off.

The list appreciates this demonstration for clarity.



--- The 1st Rule of Holes:

If you find yourself in one, stop digging.


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[K]

First of all, OBW...Please put brain in gear BEFORE opening mouthNext--
re-read the original postIt was NOT a PB500...It was an IBM ThinkPad
550...Thirdly...At the time of the incident I had and still have what is known
as REPLACEMENT VALUE COVERAGE...This means, OBW..that my insurance company
charges me an EXTRA PREMIUM...OVER AND ABOVE the "normal rates" for coverages.
I agree to pay this "Vigorish"and they agree to accept it in return for
REPLACING the specified item(s) with an EQUIVALENT item or cash value if the
original is no longer available or if a repair is not practical (costs more
than the item is worth at that time).
Moving onThe item under discussion is commonly known as, and often
referred to as, a LAPTOP or NOTEBOOK computer.  This means (for the unwashed
masses amongst us) that it is PORTABLE...in other words it is designed to be
carried around and/or easily moved.in contrast to a  fixed "desktop" unit.  Now
since it is normally used by people in a sitting and/or reclining position,  a
"reasonable and prudent man" (to use the legal standard) would accept that a
certain number of these units may be accidentally dropped and/or damaged UNLESS
the user is using something like crazy glue to bond the unit to one's thighs or
hands.
Insurance companies are not in business to lose money so they employ an
army of risk analysts to determine the rates that need to be charged in order
to cover such occurances.  Now, a brief refresher on the "standard" insurance
lawsUnder  a standard "all perils" homeowner's policy, everything is
covered unless it is SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED in writing in the policy.  You are
not covered for a flood unless you have a separate flood coverage policy...
likewise a leaking house roof UNLESS the leak is caused by something other than
normal aging..ie. a tree falling on it or a wind storm ripping off shingles
etc.  A tree falls on your car or it's vandalized...you are SOL unless you have
comprehensive coverage which you pay an additional premium for.
There is no "moral" issue involved here...it is strictly a commercial
business transaction...
BTW..I ended up adding roughly $700 to the check to buy the Pismo.. As far
as your TI Book question...if the noise was loud, violent  and in the middle of
the night you are damn right I would jump up...If the TI fell, so be it.  Every
second counts in a case like this.  It could have been a Molotov Cocktail on
the porch etc... I am glad that you are so possessed of such an orderly and
meticulous mind that nothing like this would ever happen to you...
I have respected your technical expositions on this list but find your
intimations of "theft" to be insulting and condescending, but then I stop to
consider the source...I strongly urge you to read your policy, if indeed you
have one, in order to become familiar with exactly what is and isn't covered by
it and to check with your agent if you have one before making intimations
and/or moral judgements about "theft".  As a result of my actions, several
incidents were cleared and I think the ins co is going after the perps for the
damages they caused...If successful, they, rather than the "customers" of the
ins co will end up paying for the damages...in other words...NO THEFT!!!  I
agree that you did not come out and call me a thief directly, but the
intimation  was that I did something "illegal, immoral and/or fattening" in
this case and I am offended by your "armchair" analysis and "spewing".  Oh,
FYI, I am now and have been a fully licensed life, health, property/casualty
insurance agent in the state of PA since 1977 so I think that I may have a
modicum of knowledge about this issue...
For Geoff...Thanks for the support...it's nice to see that some are able to
conduct an intelligent discussion...I simply wanted to urge listas to be sure
that they had sufficient coverage on their equipment...  Many people are
woefully ignorant of exactly what coverages they have/need until it is too
late.  I work too hard and too long to get the $$$ to buy something to take a
chance on it being broken w/out coverage of some type...be it for "stupidity"
or whatever.
Apologies to the list for the lenghty discourse, but I felt some clarification
was necessary..
Regards,
Mike K

Obi-Wan wrote:

> This is your personal opinion.  He had a Powerbook 500 series and was able
> to buy a Pismo on eBay as a result of the insurance settlement.  THAT is not
> fair business. Do the math and figure out the dates between the machines.
> When was the Pismo introduced and what was a PB 500 series worth at that
> time?  About $50.  That's what.  He got over on his insurance company by
> about $1500.  That is not right IMHO.  He should have been reimbursed for
> what he lost.  A 500 seres Powerbook worth (at the time) about $50. The
> 400MHz Pismo was released in Feb of 2000.  At that time I was giving 500
> series PB's away.  Maybe $50 for a 540c.
> > Insuring a expensive computer is a wise

Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Obi-Wan]

On 11/25/02 10:34 PM, "Geoffrey Loeffler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into
the Cybertrough:

> This is not theft and is very offensive to call it that, but it seems
> some lads have special privileges in the sand box.

We all have the same rights.  This is an interesting conversation.  Try not
to belittle it with random accusations.

> FWIW First for getting up to see what the problem was you were being a
> good citizen 

True.  No one ever said anything to the contrary.

> Your situation was clearly an accident and that is exactly what
> insurance covers, accidents. This is not finding a loophole. You paid
> premiums for just this possibility, probably higher ones as the
> coverage was good. Now unfortunately it is time to collect fairly what
> is covered. Unfortunately you will not replace what you had, you will
> only get partial replacement. Filing a legitimate claim does not drive
> up rates, it is factored in as part of doing business, a tax write off
> for the Insurance company. There is no controversy here. No scam, no
> fraud, no immoral actions, just a legal contract and a honest good
> citizen.

This is your personal opinion.  He had a Powerbook 500 series and was able
to buy a Pismo on eBay as a result of the insurance settlement.  THAT is not
fair business. Do the math and figure out the dates between the machines.
When was the Pismo introduced and what was a PB 500 series worth at that
time?  About $50.  That's what.  He got over on his insurance company by
about $1500.  That is not right IMHO.  He should have been reimbursed for
what he lost.  A 500 seres Powerbook worth (at the time) about $50. The
400MHz Pismo was released in Feb of 2000.  At that time I was giving 500
series PB's away.  Maybe $50 for a 540c.

> Some of the more ridiculous points about throwing the computer at the
> perpetrators head, well first that would probably would not be covered
> by your insurance and unless you were in grievous fear of your life
> then the person throwing the computer could be arrested for assault,
> yes dumb I agree. Grabbing a 9 mm to investigate a problem outside,
> well you better read up on your gun laws. Only in the instance of you
> again fearing for your life, with no other avenue of escape can you
> point the gun, let alone use deadly force with a gun. I do support the
> right to bear arms, but you better know when and how you can use a
> weapon. 

And I do. I understand my rights very well.

> Insuring a expensive computer is a wise choice or at least one that
> should be brought up, too bad anyone with a view not agreed on the
> list, by a few, get such harsh treatment, throwing slurring innuendoes
> because they disagree.

It was never a question, but rather a commentary offered by the original
poster.  No one has disagreed with his actions, but some have questioned the
morality of asking an insurance company to pay for him dropping a laptop.

Let me ask you a question.  If you were typing away on say...a Tibook-500,
and you heard "intruders" ...would you jump up and let the powerbook fall to
the floor? And if so would you ask for your insurance company to pay for it?

Or would you take 1 second, set your powerbook down and pursue the
"intruders?"

Just a hypothetical question.
-- 
==
Kyle H. Hansen
Apple Certified Technician
Apple Solution Expert
Macintosh Server Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==
Jesus saves...but Gretzky grabs the rebound and backhands for a goal


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Geoffrey Loeffler]

On Monday, Nov 25, 2002, at 05:50 US/Alaska, K wrote:

> EXCUSE ME???  THEFT???  The damage occurred during the prevention of 
> greater
> damage to my home...A police report was filed and the adjuster ( a 
> Nationwide
> employee rather than an independent adjustment firm, BTW)  had 
> absolutely NO
> problem with the claim..   They could very easily have rejected the 
> claim but my
> actions prevented a much more expensive claim...

This is not theft and is very offensive to call it that, but it seems 
some lads have special privileges in the sand box.
FWIW First for getting up to see what the problem was you were being a 
good citizen and second intelligent to make sure your insurance policy 
included coverage for expensive computer equipment
 The policy has clear limits, if you were anywhere near not meeting 
the limits of the policy you can be sure your your claim would have 
been denied. It does not matter what a bunch of coffee drinking buddies 
sitting down on a job think, or posters on a list for that matter, it 
is the insurance companies decision based on a legal document between 
you and the insurance company. In fact some insurance companies 
specialize in computer theft and accidents a niche market but fills the 
need.
 Your situation was clearly an accident and that is exactly what 
insurance covers, accidents. This is not finding a loophole. You paid 
premiums for just this possibility, probably higher ones as the 
coverage was good. Now unfortunately it is time to collect fairly what 
is covered. Unfortunately you will not replace what you had, you will 
only get partial replacement. Filing a legitimate claim does not drive 
up rates, it is factored in as part of doing business, a tax write off 
for the Insurance company. There is no controversy here. No scam, no 
fraud, no immoral actions, just a legal contract and a honest good 
citizen.
Some of the more ridiculous points about throwing the computer at the 
perpetrators head, well first that would probably would not be covered 
by your insurance and unless you were in grievous fear of your life 
then the person throwing the computer could be arrested for assault, 
yes dumb I agree. Grabbing a 9 mm to investigate a problem outside, 
well you better read up on your gun laws. Only in the instance of you 
again fearing for your life, with no other avenue of escape can you 
point the gun, let alone use deadly force with a gun. I do support the 
right to bear arms, but you better know when and how you can use a 
weapon. I listened to a lawyer in class for 3 days explain when you 
could and could not use deadly force, which does not make me an expert, 
but clearly use of force with a firearm it is very limited and 
litigious.
Insuring a expensive computer is a wise choice or at least one that 
should be brought up, too bad anyone with a view not agreed on the 
list, by a few, get such harsh treatment, throwing slurring innuendoes 
because they disagree. That's not being a team player and again just 
makes people not want to support this community because they may be 
flamed for a question. But then we just have to look where it comes 
from. Healthy disagreement is good but people should not be insulted, 
we have enough of that in this world.
Mike you did a brave thing and I am glad you got some compensation for 
the damages caused by the accident, the thieves were caught and nobody 
was hurt, and if no one else will apologize to you for your treatment 
here I will and do. It is just wrong to insult people for asking a 
question or doing a good thing.
Geoff




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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Justin]

Loonie = 1$
Toonie = 2$

(a Loonie has a Loon [the bird] on the back)

-J

On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 10:00 PM, K wrote:

> HHHMMM...I thought a Toonie was a lesser relative of the Canadian 
> loonie..
>
> On a more serious note, I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest
> here...There was absolutely no attempt to defraud anyone...I reported
> truthfully to the police and to the ins. co as to exactly what 
> happened...I
> asked the agent if it was covered and he referred it to the co. 
> adjuster..HE
> gave me a claim # and proceeded to process it within about 10 days or 
> so..My
> understanding is that it was covered because it occurred as  an adjunct
> event  to a property crime.
> BTW obiwan...what "friends" say they will do often changes at crunch
> time...depends on whose ox is being gored...
> Also..your "joe' filing a false police report is committing a 
> crime...At NO
> point did I request to be compensated...just asked if it was...the ins 
> co
> made the decision to pay...I really didn't think that it would be
> covered..The only stupid question is the unasked one...There are many 
> cases
> where a consumer thought that they broke something and it turns out 
> that the
> item was defective to begin with but the defect was under a "secret
> warranty/recall" by the manufacturer..If it's your item and you dont 
> ask
> about it...well, it's your loss I guess...
> All I was trying to do was shed a little light on the subject and urge
> people to be sure they had sufficient coverage of their computer 
> property...
>
> Later,
> Mike K


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Justin]

touché

-J

On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 07:23 PM, sean weijand wrote:


A Toonie is only a couple of cents, isn't it?? Or is that just it's
purchasing power?

sean




my toonie. (i think my opinion is worth more than a couple cents ;)

-J



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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[K]

HHHMMM...I thought a Toonie was a lesser relative of the Canadian loonie..

On a more serious note, I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest
here...There was absolutely no attempt to defraud anyone...I reported
truthfully to the police and to the ins. co as to exactly what happened...I
asked the agent if it was covered and he referred it to the co. adjuster..HE
gave me a claim # and proceeded to process it within about 10 days or so..My
understanding is that it was covered because it occurred as  an adjunct
event  to a property crime.
BTW obiwan...what "friends" say they will do often changes at crunch
time...depends on whose ox is being gored...
Also..your "joe' filing a false police report is committing a crime...At NO
point did I request to be compensated...just asked if it was...the ins co
made the decision to pay...I really didn't think that it would be
covered..The only stupid question is the unasked one...There are many cases
where a consumer thought that they broke something and it turns out that the
item was defective to begin with but the defect was under a "secret
warranty/recall" by the manufacturer..If it's your item and you dont ask
about it...well, it's your loss I guess...
All I was trying to do was shed a little light on the subject and urge
people to be sure they had sufficient coverage of their computer property...

Later,
Mike K

weijand wrote:

> A Toonie is only a couple of cents, isn't it?? Or is that just it's
> purchasing power?
>
> sean
>
> >
> > my toonie. (i think my opinion is worth more than a couple cents ;)


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[sean weijand]

A Toonie is only a couple of cents, isn't it?? Or is that just it's 
purchasing power?

sean


>
> my toonie. (i think my opinion is worth more than a couple cents ;)
>
> -J


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Justin]

wasnt going to get into this one.but figured i might as well.

i think whats going on, is people are making it an issue of morality, 
less so much a legality. if a company agrees to pay you for your 
neglect or clumsiness, thats their right to do so, its their business, 
and if their policy allows for it, then don't worry about it.
if you make up some story about a robber coming in and dropping it on 
his way out the door.its still a matter of the company deciding 
whether or not its within their policy to provide reimbursement, but 
then you run into mr. hanson's point, being the morality of it...is it 
correct to use insurance which is intended to provide for crimes and 
'acts of "god"' to cover your neglect?
im leaning towards the legal aspect. if the company provides for it, 
given a truthful claim, theres no problem. if it was a problem, they 
wouldnt pay you.

my toonie. (i think my opinion is worth more than a couple cents ;)

-J

On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 06:15 PM, sean weijand wrote:

>   As long as you tell the insurance company exactly what happened, then
> they are able to do with that info as they wish. if they cover you
> great, if not, not great, either way no fraud as far as i can see.
>
> sean


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[sean weijand]

  As long as you tell the insurance company exactly what happened, then 
they are able to do with that info as they wish. if they cover you 
great, if not, not great, either way no fraud as far as i can see.

sean




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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[John Haumann]

On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 03:41 PM, Obi-Wan wrote:

> I asked a group of my friends and co-workers this morning and *all* of 
> them
> thought that it was an accident on your part and that your insurance 
> company
> should not be held responsible.  My friend Theo stated that if you had 
> used
> the powerbook as a weapon and hurled it at the vandals/burglers then he
> thought that it should be covered, but since you just dropped it 
> rushing out
> to investigate it was your fault and you should be responsible for it.
>

Sometimes we put a little too much stock into what we (and our friends) 
think.  I'm wondering if anyone took the time to look at one or two 
insurance contracts?

The contract specifies what are termed "covered perils" upon which the 
premium rates for that particular coverage are structured.  It matters 
not what you or I think it should or shouldn't say, or whether you or I 
agree with what it does say, but rather what the contract specifies.  
If we disagree with the terms, we can choose to join a different pool 
of insured by buying a different contract, possibly from a competing 
insurer.  Different contracts have different specifications (and, very 
likely, different pricing).  Contracts that include "stupid people 
tricks" among it's covered perils will likely be priced higher than a 
similar contracts whose owners need to be more responsible.  In the 
case of insurance contracts, you pay for the coverage you get (in the 
specifications).  Whether a claim is or isn't filed (for a covered 
peril) is up to the individual.  That's the way it works.  Insurance 
companies simply offer products with features that customers seem to 
want -- and are willing (or gullible enough) to pay for -- and the 
product is priced accordingly.

John at Wood-n-Shavings, Inc.
San Antonio, Texas



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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Obi-Wan]

On 11/25/02 6:50 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the Cybertrough:

> EXCUSE ME???  THEFT???  The damage occurred during the prevention of greater
> damage to my home...A police report was filed and the adjuster ( a Nationwide
> employee rather than an independent adjustment firm, BTW)  had absolutely NO
> problem with the claim..   They could very easily have rejected the claim but
> my actions prevented a much more expensive claimI find your reasoning to
be irrational, to say the least...that's what insurance is for...it was NOT
> intentional, it WAS an accident..so if you are stupid enough to park your
> vehicle on a street and it is stolen, by your reasoning you shouldn't be able
> to file a claim because your mental deficiency  is responsible for the
> theft...BTW...The vandals were later apprehended because I was able to provide
> a license plate off of their vehicle...it also cleared a series of vandalism
> reports...

I asked a group of my friends and co-workers this morning and *all* of them
thought that it was an accident on your part and that your insurance company
should not be held responsible.  My friend Theo stated that if you had used
the powerbook as a weapon and hurled it at the vandals/burglers then he
thought that it should be covered, but since you just dropped it rushing out
to investigate it was your fault and you should be responsible for it.

> I have respected your extensive contribution to the list, but I feel that in
> this case, as well as in a recent discussion, you over-stepped the bounds of
> civility and I would respectfully request an apology..
 
I did not call *you* a thief.  All I said was that is seemed a bit like
theft.  Insurance fraud is a huge problem in this country.

Lets say that some normal "joe" accidentally dropped his laptop and cracked
the LCD.  What's to stop him from making up a story that "my house was being
broken into, and I leaped up and dropped my powerbook" on a whim.  He could
then call the police and file a report, without anyone ever having been
there, take the padded estimate and go to eBay and buy a Pismo.

I have no doubt that your story is true, I am just illustrating a point.
But since another list member stated that insurance companies will pay for
an "act of stupidity" then I guess whatever!  All the others whose
premiums go up as a result of people filing claims like that one will no
doubt be happy as well.

The way I was raised would not allow me to do that.  I accept responsibility
for my actions.  Even if I was doing a noble thing by stopping a rash of
home vandalisms, I would not have filed a claim for dropping my laptop on my
way to the door.  I guess it's just me.
 
-- 
==
Kyle H. Hansen
Apple Certified Technician
Apple Solution Expert
Macintosh Server Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==
Jesus saves...but Gretzky grabs the rebound and backhands for a goal


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[csean]

on 11/25/02 17:58, G-Books at [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>> Please, tell me you aren't serious. Insurance companies don't lose
>> money.
> 
> You are correct. They just keep raising rates so everyone helps bear the
> cost of insurance fraud. We lose; the insurance companies do not.
> 
> Does that make you feel any better?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dan Knight, president, Cobweb Publishing, Inc.


Capitalism at its socialist best.

Chris


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[P . F . Grenier]

On Monday, Nov 25, 2002, at 12:10 US/Eastern, Dan Knight wrote:

> P.F.Grenier writes:
>
>> Please, tell me you aren't serious. Insurance companies don't lose
>> money.
>
> You are correct. They just keep raising rates so everyone helps bear 
> the
> cost of insurance fraud. We lose; the insurance companies do not.
>
> Does that make you feel any better?
>
>

Who is talking about fraud?


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Dan Knight]

P.F.Grenier writes:

>Please, tell me you aren't serious. Insurance companies don't lose 
>money.

You are correct. They just keep raising rates so everyone helps bear the 
cost of insurance fraud. We lose; the insurance companies do not.

Does that make you feel any better?


-- 
Dan Knight, president, Cobweb Publishing, Inc.
  
  
   

Please have your pet peeves spayed or neutered.


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Keith Ronan]

It's going to be one of those Mondays I think on the web:-0




Keith




On 11/25/02 9:50 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> EXCUSE ME???  THEFT???  The damage occurred during the prevention of greater
> damage to my home...A police report was filed and the adjuster ( a Nationwide
> employee rather than an independent adjustment firm, BTW)  had absolutely NO
> problem with the claim..   They could very easily have rejected the claim but
> my
> actions prevented a much more expensive claimI find your reasoning to be
> irrational, to say the least...that's what insurance is for...it was NOT
> intentional, it WAS an accident..so if you are stupid enough to park your
> vehicle on a street and it is stolen, by your reasoning you shouldn't be able
> to
> file a claim because your mental deficiency  is responsible for the
> theft...BTW...The vandals were later apprehended because I was able to provide
> a
> license plate off of their vehicle...it also cleared a series of vandalism
> reports...
> I have respected your extensive contribution to the list, but I feel that in
> this case, as well as in a recent discussion, you over-stepped the bounds of
> civility and I would respectfully request an apology..
> Regards,
> Mike K
> 
> Obi-Wan wrote:
> 
>> On 11/25/02 1:12 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the Cybertrough:
>>> ...Heard noise outside, ran to the door
>>> and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
>>> inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over $1000
>>> to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which I
>>> promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
>>>   Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
>>> policy...as an
>>> apt dweller
>> 
>> No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay for
>> something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some other
>> homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
>> TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my mistake
>> and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
>> manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
>> investigate.
>> 
>> Now if my home caught on fire while I was away and burned up my
>> laptop...well that would be a different thing.
>> 
> 


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[csean]

on 11/25/02 14:24, G-Books at [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>> and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
>> inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over $1000
>> to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which I
>> promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
>> Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
>> policy...as an
>> apt dweller
> 
> No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay for
> something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some other
> homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
> TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my mistake
> and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
> manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
> investigate. 
> 
> Now if my home caught on fire while I was away and burned up my
> laptop...well that would be a different thing.


It all depends on the insurance coverage. Yes, even carelessness can be
covered (heck, even stupidity can be covered). That's why they call it
insurance. You can even insure yourself against claims for excessive
violence and lost future earnings from thieves (or their heirs) that you
shoot while they're burgling your house. And you needn't even worry about it
somehow not feeling "OK". Ain't free enterprise great?

Chris H


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Gene Merritt]

>
>
>>
>>
>
>No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay for
>something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some other
>homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
>TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my mistake
>and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
>manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
>investigate. 
>
>Now if my home caught on fire while I was away and burned up my
>laptop...well that would be a different thing.
>
>  
>
Obi-Wan

With all due respect , not all of us have (or want) a 9mm around in case 
of such emergencies.
In the case of such kind of intrusion, one does what one has to do. We 
all are different,
as are our responses in this respect. What was done, in this case, was 
both herioc and
resulted in the capture of the criminal, WITHOUT any undue harm or loss 
of life.

This kind of action should be applauded, period!

Gene


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[K]

EXCUSE ME???  THEFT???  The damage occurred during the prevention of greater
damage to my home...A police report was filed and the adjuster ( a Nationwide
employee rather than an independent adjustment firm, BTW)  had absolutely NO
problem with the claim..   They could very easily have rejected the claim but my
actions prevented a much more expensive claimI find your reasoning to be
irrational, to say the least...that's what insurance is for...it was NOT
intentional, it WAS an accident..so if you are stupid enough to park your
vehicle on a street and it is stolen, by your reasoning you shouldn't be able to
file a claim because your mental deficiency  is responsible for the
theft...BTW...The vandals were later apprehended because I was able to provide a
license plate off of their vehicle...it also cleared a series of vandalism
reports...
I have respected your extensive contribution to the list, but I feel that in
this case, as well as in a recent discussion, you over-stepped the bounds of
civility and I would respectfully request an apology..
Regards,
Mike K

Obi-Wan wrote:

> On 11/25/02 1:12 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the Cybertrough:
> >...Heard noise outside, ran to the door
> > and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
> > inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over $1000
> > to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which I
> > promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
> >   Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
> > policy...as an
> > apt dweller
>
> No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay for
> something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some other
> homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
> TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my mistake
> and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
> manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
> investigate.
>
> Now if my home caught on fire while I was away and burned up my
> laptop...well that would be a different thing.
>


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[P . F . Grenier]

On Monday, Nov 25, 2002, at 07:10 US/Eastern, Keith Ronan wrote:

> My cat liked to sit on top of my $800.00 Sony Amplifier that I had in 
> my
> Home Theatre System. One night I heard a very violent popping noise. 
> After
> investigating I realized she had vomited into it while it was on. The
> popping was it shorting out. I had to dry it out and have it cleaned 
> and
> repaired. I never considered having my insurance pay for it. Moral of 
> the
> story...Make sure to buy anti- furball food for your cat and don't 
> scam your
> insurance company if at all possible. :-)
>

Again, how is submitting an honest claim a "scam?"


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[P . F . Grenier]

On Monday, Nov 25, 2002, at 06:47 US/Eastern, Obi-Wan wrote:

> On 11/25/02 1:12 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the 
> Cybertrough:
>> ...Heard noise outside, ran to the door
>> and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
>> inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over 
>> $1000
>> to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which 
>> I
>> promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
>>   Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
>> policy...as an
>> apt dweller
>
> No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay 
> for
> something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some 
> other
> homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
> TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my 
> mistake
> and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
> manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
> investigate.
>
>

Please, tell me you aren't serious. Insurance companies don't lose 
money.
Homeowners covers accidental damage. If you submit an honest claim and 
they agree to pay where is the controversy?


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Keith Ronan]

My cat liked to sit on top of my $800.00 Sony Amplifier that I had in my
Home Theatre System. One night I heard a very violent popping noise. After
investigating I realized she had vomited into it while it was on. The
popping was it shorting out. I had to dry it out and have it cleaned and
repaired. I never considered having my insurance pay for it. Moral of the
story...Make sure to buy anti- furball food for your cat and don't scam your
insurance company if at all possible. :-)



Keith Ronan

 11/25/02 6:47 AM, "Obi-Wan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 11/25/02 1:12 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the Cybertrough:
>> ...Heard noise outside, ran to the door
>> and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
>> inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over $1000
>> to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which I
>> promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
>>   Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
>> policy...as an
>> apt dweller
> 
> No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay for
> something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some other
> homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
> TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my mistake
> and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
> manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
> investigate. 
> 
> Now if my home caught on fire while I was away and burned up my
> laptop...well that would be a different thing.


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Re: Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[Obi-Wan]

On 11/25/02 1:12 AM, "K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Spew into the Cybertrough:
>...Heard noise outside, ran to the door
> and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
> inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over $1000
> to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which I
> promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
>   Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
> policy...as an
> apt dweller

No offense, but you feel it "OK" to ask your insurance company to pay for
something like that?  That seems a bit like theft to me.  Can some other
homeowners chime in and tell me that this is the norm?  If I dropped my
TiBook I would not look for a loophole of coverage...since it was my mistake
and I dropped it.  Even if my home was being broken into, I could still
manage to set my laptop down before grabbing my 9mm and going on to
investigate. 

Now if my home caught on fire while I was away and burned up my
laptop...well that would be a different thing.

-- 
==
Kyle H. Hansen
Apple Certified Technician
Apple Solution Expert
Macintosh Server Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==
Jesus saves...but Gretzky grabs the rebound and backhands for a goal


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Insurance Coverage on BeerBooks et al

[K]

Donald Keenan wrote:

> Is it common for both homeowners AND apartment insurance to cover
> mishaps other than fire or theft
> when it comes to replacing computers?
> How strict is the burden of proof? If someone spills beer, water, etc on
> a computer, this is considered a valid claim?
> This makes me think I should consider apartment insurance.
> Donald
> On Friday, November 22, 2002, at 03:48 PM, Bruce Mitchell wrote:
>
> > So submit a claim to your insurance company and see what happens.
>

Your policy will usually have an electronics and/or computer coverage
rider built in.  Unfortunately, the $$ amt is usually VERY minimal ( about
$100 or so)  You can and should get additional coverage by buying a separate
rider that is fairly inexpensive.  You need to contact the agent and provide
the info..brand, type , value, etc  also very important is that you have
replacement value coverage rather than the normal coverage provided.  This
ensures that you should get the cost of a current equivalent ,or better, if
an original isn't available.  This coverage is also minimally priced and is
well worth it.  I speak from personal experience...
About 1 1/2 yrs ago, my home was vandalized late at night while I
was up
and working on my wife's ThinkPad 550...Heard noise outside, ran to the door
and dropped the 550...  The display cracked and some stuff came loose
inside..submitted a claim to Nationwide, they got an estimate of over $1000
to repair it so they sent me a check for $985 (after deductible)which I
promptly used towards buying a Pismo on ebay.
Moral of the story...Make sure that you have an insurance
policy...as an
apt dweller, your personal possessions are NOT covered by the bldg. owner's
coverage..if there is a fire and your stuff is burned and you don't have
your own renter's policy, you are SOL.  If you are a homeowner, the coverage
is there but minimal..this goes for cameras, coin collections, cash,
collectibles etc UNLESS declared and covered in advance.
Regards and HTH,
Mike K

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