Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Ken]

My Reply follows quote. On 22/10/2008 01:30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  

>I thought this was a bit odd. Apple and Psystar come to a settlement.
>
>It seems Apple aren't going to bury the clone makers like everyone thought, 
>more of a slap on the wrist and stop building your clones.
>
>http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/19/1511231&from=rss
>
>What gives.
>
>Simon

I can't make heads or tails out of the comments on that link.
Seems to me that it is like the elephant swishing its tail at
the flies. Only a rather minor irritant.

Ken

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gt1w/stackomacs


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 1:30 AM, Simon Royal wrote:

>
> Hi
>
> I thought this was a bit odd. Apple and Psystar come to a settlement.
>
> It seems Apple aren't going to bury the clone makers like everyone  
> thought,
> more of a slap on the wrist and stop building your clones.
>
> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/19/1511231&from=rss

As a rule, if a legal thread comes up on Slashdot, run away. You will  
lose 30 IQ points reading the id10t's posting like they actually know  
their arses from holes in the ground.

The case is NOT settled, this is simply a report that the two parties  
have moved to non-court dispute settlement: ie: hashing it out in the  
lawyers offices.



READ the filing. There is NO mention WHATSOEVER about the terms of the  
settlement. Nothing in there says squat about 'slap on the wrist'. It  
could well be the judge telling them "Get this stupid case out of my  
courtroom NOW!"

It would be interesting to know what's really going on, because  
Psystar's anti-trust claims against Apple are laughable on their face.

BY DEFINTION an illegal trust MUST involve MORE THAN ONE COMPANY.

Apple, despite the fevered dreams of the 'iwaanacheepmac11!!'  
crowd, a computer company with <10% of the market share, could not  
POSSIBLY form an 'illegal monopoly', any more than Ford has an  
'illegal monopoly' on Mustangs.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 9:10 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> BY DEFINTION an illegal trust MUST involve MORE THAN ONE COMPANY.
>
> Apple, despite the fevered dreams of the 'iwaanacheepmac11!!'
> crowd, a computer company with <10% of the market share, could not
> POSSIBLY form an 'illegal monopoly', any more than Ford has an
> 'illegal monopoly' on Mustangs.

Psystar's claim is Apple is imposing a "tie-in sale" on its customers.

"Tie-in sales" are illegal, and such sales need only involve one  
company, not two or more.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Bruce Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 1:30 AM, Simon Royal wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I thought this was a bit odd. Apple and Psystar come to a settlement.
>>
>> It seems Apple aren't going to bury the clone makers like everyone
>> thought,
>> more of a slap on the wrist and stop building your clones.
>>
>> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/19/1511231&from=rss
>
> As a rule, if a legal thread comes up on Slashdot, run away. You will
> lose 30 IQ points reading the id10t's posting like they actually know
> their arses from holes in the ground.
>
> The case is NOT settled, this is simply a report that the two parties
> have moved to non-court dispute settlement: ie: hashing it out in the
> lawyers offices.
>
> 
>
> READ the filing. There is NO mention WHATSOEVER about the terms of the
> settlement. Nothing in there says squat about 'slap on the wrist'. It
> could well be the judge telling them "Get this stupid case out of my
> courtroom NOW!"
>
> It would be interesting to know what's really going on, because
> Psystar's anti-trust claims against Apple are laughable on their face.
>
> BY DEFINTION an illegal trust MUST involve MORE THAN ONE COMPANY.
>
> Apple, despite the fevered dreams of the 'iwaanacheepmac11!!'
> crowd, a computer company with <10% of the market share, could not
> POSSIBLY form an 'illegal monopoly', any more than Ford has an
> 'illegal monopoly' on Mustangs.



What is the opposite of 'iwaanacheepmac11!!'?

"Ihavemoremoneythansensesoforcemeintooverpaying!"

Apple certainly does not want the general public to be aware that
there is a Mac OS running alternative. And they certainly have the
money to afford the justice they want.

Keeping this cat from coming out of the bag with the holiday sales
season come up makes a lot of marketing sense. All that ad money
portraying Microsoft as stubborn and entrenched in it's own selfish
policies at the expense of an uninformed public would backfire if
there was a hint that Apple had it's own rigid agenda to keep the
consumer misdirected.

Can you hear that in the background? That is sound of the Linux
flavors creeping up to pounce on the market in a major way while Apple
tries to ignore the need of an Apple OS for the PC. When that happens
Apple will be all too willing to jump into the off the shelf OS
market. But it will be too late.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

>
> Can you hear that in the background? That is sound of the Linux
> flavors creeping up to pounce on the market in a major way while Apple
> tries to ignore the need of an Apple OS for the PC.



AHAHAHAHAHAHA!



Linux-based netbooks are returned at a 4-1 rate over windows-based ones.

The money quote:

"People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know what they  
get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and  
start realizing that it’s not what they are used to. They don’t want  
to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The  
return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than  
Windows XP netbooks."

And this is from the guy who has a stake in selling the things.

Anyone not deep into the flavor-aid will realize that no way in hell  
will Linux overtake even OS X in the consumer market any time soon, if  
ever.

The mere fact that you mention 'flavors' shows a staggering ignorance  
of what the consumer market is like. Joe Sixpack is not going to try  
to decipher what the heck a different 'flavor' of Linux is...

Linux on consumer systems has been tried again and again. If Wal-mart,  
Dell and MSI can't do it with $299 computers, it's not going to happen  
soon.

If it's so damn much better why haven't you abandoned your Macs in  
favor of cheaper, more powerful Linux systemswhy are you SOOO  
insistent that "Apple is Doomed, DOOMED I SAY!!!1!!" if they don't  
sell you cheap OSX on a pc box?

Just go buy the cheap pc box and slap one of those creeping flavors of  
linux on it.

According to your own logic, it's just as good.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

> Keeping this cat from coming out of the bag with the holiday sales
> season come up makes a lot of marketing sense. All that ad money
> portraying Microsoft as stubborn and entrenched in it's own selfish
> policies at the expense of an uninformed public would backfire if
> there was a hint that Apple had it's own rigid agenda to keep the
> consumer misdirected.

The average buyer is not aware, and, more importantly, DOES NOT CARE  
that MacOS X can be run on an Intel.

In reality, it cannot, as MacOS X is dependent upon a Intel  
motherboard which has EFI built into it from the git-go (all the  
usual suspect Intel motherboards are MBR motherboards).

But, true Intel EFI motherboards are now available, although not from  
the usual distributors ... you have to buy these from Asia.

However, as one experimenter discovered, just because you have a true  
Intel EFI motherboard does not mean that MacOS X will run on it. It  
won't.

So, the EFI hardware component is actually unnecessary now, and most  
probably in the future.

Those who have been following the OS X86 project know that it is now  
possible to boot a "street legal" retail DVD on an Intel MBR  
motherboard (ICH7, 8 and 9 are the most compatible).

And, with the newly revised boot loader, it is possible to install  
MacOS X on such an Intel, to have the entire MacOS X be  
"Vanilla" (that is, NO modifications of any kind), for it to be  
bootable on an MBR Intel motherboard, and for that very same drive to  
also be bootable on a real Intel Mac (as there are no modifications  
to any MacOS module).

Once this has been achieved at the 10.5.5 level, Software Update  
works on such an Intel just as it does on a real Mac.

But, obtaining this very high level of compatibility is way, way  
above the head of the average Joe or Jane.

In that specific respect, MacOS X86 is just a fly on one of Apple's  
many sh!ts.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Bruce Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>>
>> Can you hear that in the background? That is sound of the Linux
>> flavors creeping up to pounce on the market in a major way while Apple
>> tries to ignore the need of an Apple OS for the PC.
>
>
>
> AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>   >
>
> Linux-based netbooks are returned at a 4-1 rate over windows-based ones.
>
> The money quote:
>
> "People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don't know what they
> get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and
> start realizing that it's not what they are used to. They don't want
> to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The
> return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than
> Windows XP netbooks."
>
> And this is from the guy who has a stake in selling the things.
>
> Anyone not deep into the flavor-aid will realize that no way in hell
> will Linux overtake even OS X in the consumer market any time soon, if
> ever.
>
> The mere fact that you mention 'flavors' shows a staggering ignorance
> of what the consumer market is like. Joe Sixpack is not going to try
> to decipher what the heck a different 'flavor' of Linux is...
>
> Linux on consumer systems has been tried again and again. If Wal-mart,
> Dell and MSI can't do it with $299 computers, it's not going to happen
> soon.
>
> If it's so damn much better why haven't you abandoned your Macs in
> favor of cheaper, more powerful Linux systemswhy are you SOOO
> insistent that "Apple is Doomed, DOOMED I SAY!!!1!!" if they don't
> sell you cheap OSX on a pc box?
>
> Just go buy the cheap pc box and slap one of those creeping flavors of
> linux on it.
>
> According to your own logic, it's just as good.
>
> --


I have yet to run Linux. I would not at this time buy Linux or even DL
a free "distro" ( what an ugly word, yech!) I never claimed it was
better. It is however making inroads into the minds of users. Inroads
that Apple has failed to make. I didn't say Apple is doomed, you did
when you keep insisting that an Apple OS cannot make it in the PC
marketplace.


Witness this Bruce ;

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=2418&tag=nl.e550

Underpowered overpriced hardware can't even make it on the low end of
the Apple line. What is it about a Mid tower that has room for drives
and other upgrades that people can afford that is so offensive to you?
Not all of us have great jobs to afford a Mac Pro. Leaving the option
of the Mini or the iMac unfortunately does not fill the bill. Why are
you so dismissive of the needs of users who have low incomes and yet
want an Apple OS? You seem to take it to the point of class warfare.
Why the hatefulness? Aren't low income people good enough in your
sights to own an affordable Mac? Their money is somehow different ?

Apple doesn't want people to have a Psystar for $ 550.00?  Fine, why
can't they sell us the same thing? Or would that offend some
"Mercedes" minded sensitivity? If Psystar's success is any indication
there certainly exists a market for such a machine.

Macs while not having a "one size fits all" marketing strategy does
demonstrate a " no size Mac fits  the need of the general user"
policy.

And the fact that Psystar is also selling a $ 1,000.00 dollar model
shows a market led need in that price niche also.  A company as
responsive to consumer indicators and wants as Apple likes to portray
itself would feed that need and make it profitable.

By your logic the $ 50 and $ 80 iPods should not be produced either as
they cater to the ( sniff!) lower classes. I don't know if you noticed
Bruce but the masthead here says " Low End Macs"  Low as in
"'iwaanacheepmac11!!' " as you say.  And by extension it could be
assumed that those who can afford paid help and support services and
brand new machines get their Mac opinions elsewhere. So the idea of
interest here in affordable Apple/ Mac usage and OS alternatives
should not surprise the astute.

Linux has a long way to go in my opinion. However despite your claims
Linux boxes are moving in sales and Linux publishers are gaining a lot
of ground in the marketplace.Yet Apple cannot take a simple step or
two to win the hearts and minds of the general user public? How rigid
is that? I don't see any downside at all in either an affordable,
upgradeable bottom line Mac or an Apple OS for the PC or even both. I
believe in the long run those moves would pay off tremendously.

If those Mac mid towers are marketed and / or an apple OS for PC sold
I would expect you to never buy either as I know you are a top of the
line kind of guy.  But those of us who love the OS and have low
incomes will be buying them as best as our limited incomes can
accommodate. In fact I will buy two!

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:41 PM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The average buyer is not aware, and, more importantly, DOES NOT CARE
> that MacOS X can be run on an Intel.
>

Apple does not WANT the public to be aware of this. Thus the
alternative legal negotiation of this case. Keep it on the QT.

Should an Apple OS for the PC show up on the local shelves and the
qualities of Mac OS retained it would not take long at all for the
idea of a better GUI to get around by word of mouth. Customer
satisfaction is the best ad.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Sam Macomber]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 4:53 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Bruce Johnson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Oct 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Can you hear that in the background? That is sound of the Linux
>>> flavors creeping up to pounce on the market in a major way while  
>>> Apple
>>> tries to ignore the need of an Apple OS for the PC.
>>
>>
>>
>> AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>
>> >>
>>
>> Linux-based netbooks are returned at a 4-1 rate over windows-based  
>> ones.
>>
>> The money quote:
>>
>> "People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don't know what they
>> get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and
>> start realizing that it's not what they are used to. They don't want
>> to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The
>> return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than
>> Windows XP netbooks."
>>
>> And this is from the guy who has a stake in selling the things.
>>
>> Anyone not deep into the flavor-aid will realize that no way in hell
>> will Linux overtake even OS X in the consumer market any time soon,  
>> if
>> ever.
>>
>> The mere fact that you mention 'flavors' shows a staggering ignorance
>> of what the consumer market is like. Joe Sixpack is not going to try
>> to decipher what the heck a different 'flavor' of Linux is...
>>
>> Linux on consumer systems has been tried again and again. If Wal- 
>> mart,
>> Dell and MSI can't do it with $299 computers, it's not going to  
>> happen
>> soon.
>>
>> If it's so damn much better why haven't you abandoned your Macs in
>> favor of cheaper, more powerful Linux systemswhy are you SOOO
>> insistent that "Apple is Doomed, DOOMED I SAY!!!1!!" if they don't
>> sell you cheap OSX on a pc box?
>>
>> Just go buy the cheap pc box and slap one of those creeping flavors  
>> of
>> linux on it.
>>
>> According to your own logic, it's just as good.
>>
>> --
>
>
> I have yet to run Linux. I would not at this time buy Linux or even DL
> a free "distro" ( what an ugly word, yech!) I never claimed it was
> better. It is however making inroads into the minds of users. Inroads
> that Apple has failed to make. I didn't say Apple is doomed, you did
> when you keep insisting that an Apple OS cannot make it in the PC
> marketplace.
>
>
> Witness this Bruce ;
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=2418&tag=nl.e550
>
> Underpowered overpriced hardware can't even make it on the low end of
> the Apple line. What is it about a Mid tower that has room for drives
> and other upgrades that people can afford that is so offensive to you?
> Not all of us have great jobs to afford a Mac Pro. Leaving the option
> of the Mini or the iMac unfortunately does not fill the bill. Why are
> you so dismissive of the needs of users who have low incomes and yet
> want an Apple OS? You seem to take it to the point of class warfare.
> Why the hatefulness? Aren't low income people good enough in your
> sights to own an affordable Mac? Their money is somehow different ?
>
> Apple doesn't want people to have a Psystar for $ 550.00?  Fine, why
> can't they sell us the same thing? Or would that offend some
> "Mercedes" minded sensitivity? If Psystar's success is any indication
> there certainly exists a market for such a machine.
>
> Macs while not having a "one size fits all" marketing strategy does
> demonstrate a " no size Mac fits  the need of the general user"
> policy.
>
> And the fact that Psystar is also selling a $ 1,000.00 dollar model
> shows a market led need in that price niche also.  A company as
> responsive to consumer indicators and wants as Apple likes to portray
> itself would feed that need and make it profitable.
>
> By your logic the $ 50 and $ 80 iPods should not be produced either as
> they cater to the ( sniff!) lower classes. I don't know if you noticed
> Bruce but the masthead here says " Low End Macs"  Low as in
> "'iwaanacheepmac11!!' " as you say.  And by extension it could be
> assumed that those who can afford paid help and support services and
> brand new machines get their Mac opinions elsewhere. So the idea of
> interest here in affordable Apple/ Mac usage and OS alternatives
> should not surprise the astute.
>
> Linux has a long way to go in my opinion. However despite your claims
> Linux boxes are moving in sales and Linux publishers are gaining a lot
> of ground in the marketplace.Yet Apple cannot take a simple step or
> two to win the hearts and minds of the general user public? How rigid
> is that? I don't see any downside at all in either an affordable,
> upgradeable bottom line Mac or an Apple OS for the PC or even both. I
> believe in the long run those moves would pay off tremendously.
>
> If those Mac mid towers are marketed and / or an apple OS for PC sold
> I would expect you to never buy either as I know you are a top of the
> l

Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Simon Royal]

Hi

And it is not as if the high price tag means superior build quality. Not 
wanting to talk ill of Apple but for such a price they shouldn't have so 
many mistakes (hardware wise).

Simon

--- http://www.simonroyal.co.uk - Mac news, reviews, guides, upgrades, 
hacks and more... - http://www.nmug.org.uk - webmaster for Norwich Mac User 
Group - The box said requires Windows XP or better, so I bought an Apple 
Mac.


On Oct 22 2008, PeterH wrote:



On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:01 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

>
>> The average buyer is not aware, and, more importantly, DOES NOT CARE
>> that MacOS X can be run on an Intel.
>>
>
> Apple does not WANT the public to be aware of this. Thus the
> alternative legal negotiation of this case. Keep it on the QT.

Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a  
couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).







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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Brian Durant]

This discussion is starting to remind me of the debate around the UMAX S900
and other Mac clones that were prevented from an authorized upgrade path to
OS X. I think the discussion is as relevant now as it was then. I have never
accepted the logic that Apple must of necessity be the only hardware
producer licensed to use the Mac OS.
The "clone wars" drove me over to Microsoft for a while, but after only two
years my motherboard quit on me and I got tired of the crappy hardware that
often follows with Windows. That is not to say that there shouldn't be a
middle road.

My .02 €.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:58 PM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:01 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
> >
> >> The average buyer is not aware, and, more importantly, DOES NOT CARE
> >> that MacOS X can be run on an Intel.
> >>
> >
> > Apple does not WANT the public to be aware of this. Thus the
> > alternative legal negotiation of this case. Keep it on the QT.
>
> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).
>
>
>
> >
>

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Simon Royal wrote:

> And it is not as if the high price tag means superior build  
> quality. Not
> wanting to talk ill of Apple but for such a price they shouldn't  
> have so
> many mistakes (hardware wise).

Apple's hardware is fully-simulated, to the best of Apple's ability.

Too bad its simulation engineers are so myopic.

Did anyone notice that the last several Pixar feature-length  
animateds were "rendered" using Intels, and not Apples?



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:01 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

>
>> The average buyer is not aware, and, more importantly, DOES NOT CARE
>> that MacOS X can be run on an Intel.
>>
>
> Apple does not WANT the public to be aware of this. Thus the
> alternative legal negotiation of this case. Keep it on the QT.

Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a  
couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:58 PM, PeterH wrote:

> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).



Please point out where I can get a dual Xeon quad-core system with 2  
gigs of ram, Radeon HD2600 or equivalent video card, 320G SATA drive,  
FW400, FW800, USB2, two Gigabit ethernet ports and Bluetooth for 'a  
couple of hundred apiece'.

The cheapest I can find JUST the processors is $344 for two 2.4Ghz chips



And those are out of stock...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:09 PM, PeterH wrote:

>
> Did anyone notice that the last several Pixar feature-length
> animateds were "rendered" using Intels, and not Apples?

And this has to do with Apple engineering how? Pixar has NEVER used  
Macs for render farms. They're used for the creative folk's  
workstations.

Those were a warehouse full of intel machines in racks.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
>> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).
>
>
>
> Please point out where I can get a dual Xeon quad-core system with 2
> gigs of ram, Radeon HD2600 or equivalent video card, 320G SATA drive,
> FW400, FW800, USB2, two Gigabit ethernet ports and Bluetooth for 'a
> couple of hundred apiece'.
>
> The cheapest I can find JUST the processors is $344 for two 2.4Ghz  
> chips

eworldsale.com is ALWAYS out-of-stock on those loss-leader items, so  
they are hardly the "exemplar" of cost comparisons. Pullz!

And, who, besides Apple, mandates that you HAVE to have an anemic bus  
speed, such as 1066 MHz, and a doubly anemic processor speed, such as  
2.4 GHz?

I'm running my production work on 1600 MHz buses and 3.6 GHz processors.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Pixar has NEVER used
> Macs for render farms. They're used for the creative folk's
> workstations.


If Jobs' Pixar won't render his features using Macs then why should  
we buy Macs?

Just buy whatever works, period.

And, for some of us, that means generic Intels, running legal copies  
of MacOS X Leopard.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:30 PM, PeterH wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>>> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
>>> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).
>>
>>
>>
>> Please point out where I can get a dual Xeon quad-core system with 2
>> gigs of ram, Radeon HD2600 or equivalent video card, 320G SATA drive,
>> FW400, FW800, USB2, two Gigabit ethernet ports and Bluetooth for 'a
>> couple of hundred apiece'.
>>
>> The cheapest I can find JUST the processors is $344 for two 2.4Ghz
>> chips
>
> eworldsale.com is ALWAYS out-of-stock on those loss-leader items, so
> they are hardly the "exemplar" of cost comparisons. Pullz!
>
> And, who, besides Apple, mandates that you HAVE to have an anemic bus
> speed, such as 1066 MHz, and a doubly anemic processor speed, such as
> 2.4 GHz?
>
> I'm running my production work on 1600 MHz buses and 3.6 GHz  
> processors.
>

I notice you didn't answer my question...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>> eworldsale.com is ALWAYS out-of-stock on those loss-leader items, so
>> they are hardly the "exemplar" of cost comparisons.  
>> Pullz!
>>
>> And, who, besides Apple, mandates that you HAVE to have an anemic bus
>> speed, such as 1066 MHz, and a doubly anemic processor speed, such as
>> 2.4 GHz?
>>
>> I'm running my production work on 1600 MHz buses and 3.6 GHz
>> processors.
>>
>
> I notice you didn't answer my question...

Why bother, you've made up your mind, as I have mine.

You've pulled out of the "ether" a non-existent processor (because  
you cannot buy it for that price), whereas I have pulled out of the  
"ether" a real processor, and bus.

Both may run 10.5.5 flawlessly. Well, I know MINE does. I'm not so  
sure about yours.





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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Kyle Hansen]

On 10/22/08 3:16 PM, "Bruce Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Broadcast into the ether:

> And this has to do with Apple engineering how? Pixar has NEVER used
> Macs for render farms. They're used for the creative folk's
> workstations.
> 
> Those were a warehouse full of intel machines in racks.

I have worked tech contracts with Pixar in Emeryville.  They are a Mac Shop
primarily and the only winblows units are used for low priority crunching.

Kyle Hansen
-- 
This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a twitter.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Sam Macomber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 4:53 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Bruce Johnson
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>>

 Can you hear that in the background? That is sound of the Linux
 flavors creeping up to pounce on the market in a major way while
 Apple
 tries to ignore the need of an Apple OS for the PC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>>
>>> >>
>>> Linux-based netbooks are returned at a 4-1 rate over windows-based
>>> ones.
>>>
>>> The money quote:
>>>
>>> "People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don't know what they
>>> get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and
>>> start realizing that it's not what they are used to. They don't want
>>> to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The
>>> return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than
>>> Windows XP netbooks."
>>>
>>> And this is from the guy who has a stake in selling the things.
>>>
>>> Anyone not deep into the flavor-aid will realize that no way in hell
>>> will Linux overtake even OS X in the consumer market any time soon,
>>> if
>>> ever.
>>>
>>> The mere fact that you mention 'flavors' shows a staggering ignorance
>>> of what the consumer market is like. Joe Sixpack is not going to try
>>> to decipher what the heck a different 'flavor' of Linux is...
>>>
>>> Linux on consumer systems has been tried again and again. If Wal-
>>> mart,
>>> Dell and MSI can't do it with $299 computers, it's not going to
>>> happen
>>> soon.
>>>
>>> If it's so damn much better why haven't you abandoned your Macs in
>>> favor of cheaper, more powerful Linux systemswhy are you SOOO
>>> insistent that "Apple is Doomed, DOOMED I SAY!!!1!!" if they don't
>>> sell you cheap OSX on a pc box?
>>>
>>> Just go buy the cheap pc box and slap one of those creeping flavors
>>> of
>>> linux on it.
>>>
>>> According to your own logic, it's just as good.
>>>
>>> --
>>
>>
>> I have yet to run Linux. I would not at this time buy Linux or even DL
>> a free "distro" ( what an ugly word, yech!) I never claimed it was
>> better. It is however making inroads into the minds of users. Inroads
>> that Apple has failed to make. I didn't say Apple is doomed, you did
>> when you keep insisting that an Apple OS cannot make it in the PC
>> marketplace.
>>
>>
>> Witness this Bruce ;
>>
>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=2418&tag=nl.e550
>>
>> Underpowered overpriced hardware can't even make it on the low end of
>> the Apple line. What is it about a Mid tower that has room for drives
>> and other upgrades that people can afford that is so offensive to you?
>> Not all of us have great jobs to afford a Mac Pro. Leaving the option
>> of the Mini or the iMac unfortunately does not fill the bill. Why are
>> you so dismissive of the needs of users who have low incomes and yet
>> want an Apple OS? You seem to take it to the point of class warfare.
>> Why the hatefulness? Aren't low income people good enough in your
>> sights to own an affordable Mac? Their money is somehow different ?
>>
>> Apple doesn't want people to have a Psystar for $ 550.00?  Fine, why
>> can't they sell us the same thing? Or would that offend some
>> "Mercedes" minded sensitivity? If Psystar's success is any indication
>> there certainly exists a market for such a machine.
>>
>> Macs while not having a "one size fits all" marketing strategy does
>> demonstrate a " no size Mac fits  the need of the general user"
>> policy.
>>
>> And the fact that Psystar is also selling a $ 1,000.00 dollar model
>> shows a market led need in that price niche also.  A company as
>> responsive to consumer indicators and wants as Apple likes to portray
>> itself would feed that need and make it profitable.
>>
>> By your logic the $ 50 and $ 80 iPods should not be produced either as
>> they cater to the ( sniff!) lower classes. I don't know if you noticed
>> Bruce but the masthead here says " Low End Macs"  Low as in
>> "'iwaanacheepmac11!!' " as you say.  And by extension it could be
>> assumed that those who can afford paid help and support services and
>> brand new machines get their Mac opinions elsewhere. So the idea of
>> interest here in affordable Apple/ Mac usage and OS alternatives
>> should not surprise the astute.
>>
>> Linux has a long way to go in my opinion. However despite your claims
>> Linux boxes are moving in sales and Linux publishers are gaining a lot
>> of ground in the marketplace.Yet Apple cannot take a simple step or
>> two to win the hearts and minds of the general user public? How rigid
>> is that? I don't see any downside at all in either an affordable,
>> upgradeable bottom line Mac or an Apple OS for the PC or even both. I
>> believe in the long run those 

Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Brian Durant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This discussion is starting to remind me of the debate around the UMAX S900
> and other Mac clones that were prevented from an authorized upgrade path to
> OS X. I think the discussion is as relevant now as it was then. I have never
> accepted the logic that Apple must of necessity be the only hardware
> producer licensed to use the Mac OS.
> The "clone wars" drove me over to Microsoft for a while, but after only two
> years my motherboard quit on me and I got tired of the crappy hardware that
> often follows with Windows. That is not to say that there shouldn't be a
> middle road.
> My .02 €.


ASUS makes motherboards for Apple and big PC fabless makers as well.
Macs themselves are now PC clones!

Oh, the endless levels of irony;D!

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[hackmiester / Hunter Fuller]

2008/10/22 Kyle Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On 10/22/08 3:16 PM, "Bruce Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Broadcast into the ether:
>
>> And this has to do with Apple engineering how? Pixar has NEVER used
>> Macs for render farms. They're used for the creative folk's
>> workstations.
>>
>> Those were a warehouse full of intel machines in racks.
>
> I have worked tech contracts with Pixar in Emeryville.  They are a Mac Shop
> primarily and the only winblows units are used for low priority crunching.

Who said Windows?

>
> Kyle Hansen
> --
> This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a twitter.
>
>
>
> >
>



-- 
-hackmiester

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[James E. Therrault]

PeterH wrote:
> 
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:01 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
> 
> 
>>>The average buyer is not aware, and, more importantly, DOES NOT CARE
>>>that MacOS X can be run on an Intel.
>>>
>>
>>Apple does not WANT the public to be aware of this. Thus the
>>alternative legal negotiation of this case. Keep it on the QT.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a  
> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).
> 
> 



Would you build one for me?



JT


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:40 PM, James E. Therrault wrote:

>> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
>> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).
>>
>
> Would you build one for me?

I replied privately with a suggested parts list.

Anyone who wants the same, contact me off-list.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Charles Lenington]

PeterH wrote:
> On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:40 PM, James E. Therrault wrote:
>
>   
>>> Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
>>> couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).
>>>
>>>   
>> Would you build one for me?
>> 
>
> I replied privately with a suggested parts list.
>
> Anyone who wants the same, contact me off-list.
>
>
>   
Yes, please.

Charles


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 26, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Charles Lenington wrote:

> Yes, please.

General instructions:

1) Your choice of case and PSU (Antec 300 or better, with Antec 500  
"EarthWatts" or better PSU),

2) Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L or similar mobo,

3) your choice of nVidia video card (any of the 7000, 8000 and some  
9000 will do),

4) your choice of processor (Intel E8400 C2D is very good, an Intel  
9450 C2Q is better, although most work only needs a C2D),

5) Arctic Cooling Freezer Pro 7 water cooling unit,

6) 2 GB to 8 GB of PC2-6400 RAM (any of the usual suspects will do,  
even most generics),

7) any generic Firewire PCI card (VIA chip set works well),

8) any generic R8169 gigabit Ethernet card,

9) your choice of SATA optical drive (Lite-On 20X or Samsung 22X DVD  
burner), and

10) your choice of SATA hard drive (Seagate 500, 750 or 1000 GB, plus  
a second for backup).

There, that should get you started.

I built two, mostly from components I already had on-hand, including  
some "organ donors" from my Psystar OpenComputer (nee' Open Mac).

Overall cost is influenced by what you have available.

I've build examples with E1200, E2200, E4400, E8400 and Q6600  
processors, and G31/ICH7 and P35/ICH9 motherboards.

The smallest, and perhaps the least expensive, were Shuttle G31-based  
examples, which utilized hand-me-down IDE hard and optical drives,  
and entry-level Core 2 (but branded as Pentium) dual core processors.  
The Shuttles themselves were obtained from Shuttle for $129 as  
factory refurbished examples, but were actual brand-new in every  
respect.

  I've built HackBooks using GMAX3100/ICH7 laptops, too.


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Doug Burton]

On Oct 26, 2008, at 12:34 PM, PeterH wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 26, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Charles Lenington wrote:
>
>> Yes, please.
>
> General instructions:
>
> 1) Your choice of case and PSU (Antec 300 or better, with Antec 500
> "EarthWatts" or better PSU),
>
> 2) Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L or similar mobo,
>
> 3) your choice of nVidia video card (any of the 7000, 8000 and some
> 9000 will do),
>
> 4) your choice of processor (Intel E8400 C2D is very good, an Intel
> 9450 C2Q is better, although most work only needs a C2D),
>
> 5) Arctic Cooling Freezer Pro 7 water cooling unit,
>
> 6) 2 GB to 8 GB of PC2-6400 RAM (any of the usual suspects will do,
> even most generics),
>
> 7) any generic Firewire PCI card (VIA chip set works well),
>
> 8) any generic R8169 gigabit Ethernet card,
>
> 9) your choice of SATA optical drive (Lite-On 20X or Samsung 22X DVD
> burner), and
>
> 10) your choice of SATA hard drive (Seagate 500, 750 or 1000 GB, plus
> a second for backup).
>
> There, that should get you started.
>
> I built two, mostly from components I already had on-hand, including
> some "organ donors" from my Psystar OpenComputer (nee' Open Mac).
>
> Overall cost is influenced by what you have available.
>
> I've build examples with E1200, E2200, E4400, E8400 and Q6600
> processors, and G31/ICH7 and P35/ICH9 motherboards.
>
> The smallest, and perhaps the least expensive, were Shuttle G31-based
> examples, which utilized hand-me-down IDE hard and optical drives,
> and entry-level Core 2 (but branded as Pentium) dual core processors.
> The Shuttles themselves were obtained from Shuttle for $129 as
> factory refurbished examples, but were actual brand-new in every
> respect.
>
>   I've built HackBooks using GMAX3100/ICH7 laptops, too.

Just my $.02 to add, check out the InsanelyMac.com forum on building  
these systems.  There is a wealth of info there:

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showforum=137

Just a message from Doug...


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Oct 26, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Doug Burton wrote:

> Just my $.02 to add, check out the InsanelyMac.com forum on building
> these systems.  There is a wealth of info there:
>
> http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showforum=137

The so-called "InstaHackintosh" project is perhaps the most interesting.

This project includes a number of utilities and scripts which enables  
one to make a Hackintosh installer DVD using YOUR "Street Legal"  
Leopard 10.5.x retail installer DVD.

(Obviously, you must first buy the Leopard installer DVD).

The generated installer DVD can thereby be particularized to YOUR  
target Hackintosh hardware.

If you DO NOT specify your hardware configuration, a generic  
configuration will be created, and this may work on many configurations.

I found that it worked on my P35/ICH9 configuration, although sound  
was absent as I had not specified the specific codec (ALC888) which  
was required for my configuration.

In most respects, all other functions worked flawlessly.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Charles Lenington]

Charles Lenington wrote:
> PeterH wrote:
>   
>> On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:40 PM, James E. Therrault wrote:
>>
>>   
>> 
 Meanwhile, I have a bunch of MacPro-equivalents which cost me a
 couple of hundred apiece (not a couple of thousand apiece).

   
 
>>> Would you build one for me?
>>> 
>>>   
>> I replied privately with a suggested parts list.
>>
>> Anyone who wants the same, contact me off-list.
>>
>>
>>   
>> 
> Yes, please.
>
> Charles
Apparently my cut/paste didn't take. sorry for the bandwidth use.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

A bit of an update...



"here's the big news. Apple alleges that it believes there are 
corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as 
defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. "

oOo.  LoL.  LOL.  ROFL.  ROFLMAO.   Oh my.  Mulder!  What have you been...

Gotta wonder whoze faces will be plastered on that roulette wheel... 
LOL  I'm mean, there's the obvious "persons of interest" - Dell, etc. 
But what if it's  W

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 3, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Dan wrote:

>
> A bit of an update...
>
> 
>
> "here's the big news. Apple alleges that it believes there are
> corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as
> defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. "
>
> oOo.  LoL.  LOL.  ROFL.  ROFLMAO.   Oh my.  Mulder!  What have you  
> been...

I've sort of taken this to mean that Psystar's lawyers got sloppy and  
left something very interesting/incriminating in the discovery  
material they've sent to Apple so far. You know, the email that wasn't  
supposed to be printed out and kept, the one from Ellday_IkeMay saying  
'Go get 'em, we'll pay for the lawyers...

We can only hope that this shadowy corporation won't dispatch  
Cigarette Smoking Man to, ahem, 'take care' of the offenders 8-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 3, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>> "here's the big news. Apple alleges that it believes there are
>> corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as
>> defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. "
>>
> I've sort of taken this to mean that Psystar's lawyers got sloppy and
> left something very interesting/incriminating in the discovery
> material they've sent to Apple so far.

Actually, it was Apple's lawyers which got sloppy.

Plaintiffs and Defendants always include a "... and Does 1 through  
100 and Roes 1 through 100, with the actual names of Does and Roes to  
be determined at a later time, once their true names become  
known ..." clause in their documents.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Richard Ramsowr]

WOW

Just yesterday, I again ask this very question on MacDailyNews... how  
could a small start up pay for such legal support when there out of  
business?

Maybe I'm better at law that I through...

Anyway, good for Apple and there legal department...


Yours


Rick

Rick
Houston


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RE: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[John Ruschmeyer]

> From: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of PeterH
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:47 PM
> To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 3, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> >> "here's the big news. Apple alleges that it believes there are
> >> corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as
> >> defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. "
> >>
> > I've sort of taken this to mean that Psystar's lawyers got sloppy and
> > left something very interesting/incriminating in the discovery
> > material they've sent to Apple so far.
> 
> Actually, it was Apple's lawyers which got sloppy.
> 
> Plaintiffs and Defendants always include a "... and Does 1 through
> 100 and Roes 1 through 100, with the actual names of Does and Roes to
> be determined at a later time, once their true names become
> known ..." clause in their documents.

I took it to mean that they Apple's laywers have moved on from Psystar to
the people whose hacks are responsible for letting OS X run on generic
hardware. Without them, Psystar would be little more than a clone assembler.

John


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Peter]

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Richard Ramsowr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
> WOW
>
> Just yesterday, I again ask this very question on MacDailyNews... how
> could a small start up pay for such legal support when there out of
> business?
>
> Maybe I'm better at law that I through...
>
> Anyway, good for Apple and there legal department...
>
>
> Yours
>
>
> Rick
>
> Rick
> Houston
>
>
>
>
Out of business? They still sell the Computer and rumors have it that a
Laptop is coming soon.

But it is a good question, who is behind Psystar?

Peter M.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A bit of an update...
>
> 
>
> "here's the big news. Apple alleges that it believes there are
> corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as
> defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. "
>
> oOo.  LoL.  LOL.  ROFL.  ROFLMAO.   Oh my.  Mulder!  What have you been...
>
> Gotta wonder whoze faces will be plastered on that roulette wheel...
> LOL  I'm mean, there's the obvious "persons of interest" - Dell, etc.
> But what if it's  W
>
>


When I suggested a year and a half ago that Apple itself may have a
behind the scenes link to x86 going in the direction of PC OS
developement, and then again earlier this year I suggested behind the
scenes links to further moves in that direction, I was scoffed and
derided by some others on this list.

I would say Psystar knows where the "bodies" are buried on this.  I
speculate that Apple does not want an what was to be an  experiment,
and the links to an Apple PC OS to be public record.

Interesting news today is also this;

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1747&tag=nl.e550

Reads like a dis-information campaign to me. The type launched to
arouse curiosity.
Press hacks have listened well to Barnum and Goebbels.

When Windows seven is marketed toward Apple owners for their Intels do
you think the
"party line" wiull remain the same? Or will 7 look and act a lot more
like Mac OS?  Still think Apple is NOT interested at all in the
general PC OS market?

What would a list of Psystar's possible codefendants reveal. What does Apple
not want us to know?

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[AIM Mail]

I have too many thoughts on this subject to list right now, but I have  
a feeling that Apple actually is behind this in a way...I will post  
more later, but who else has noticed that since they've hit the scene,  
the Mac mini has been all but forgotten?. And BTW, I have a feeling  
that Apple and MS are very cozy ever since the Apple/Intel deal via.  
some info I aquired from a friend who's company handles Apple's  
smaller legal matters, such as Pystar...and Intel is not at all happy  
with this.

I desperately need to read up on Win7 and MS intentions with it. Can  
someone provide some thorough links for me? Thanks a million.

Cheers!
Joey.



Sent from Joey's iPhone 3G 2.1 on AT&T's all-new wireless network.  
Visit www.apple.com/iphone for more information.

Apple & AT&T - Raising the Bar.

On Dec 3, 2008, at 9:43 PM, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 > wrote:

>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> A bit of an update...
>>
>> 
>>
>> "here's the big news. Apple alleges that it believes there are
>> corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as
>> defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. "
>>
>> oOo.  LoL.  LOL.  ROFL.  ROFLMAO.   Oh my.  Mulder!  What have you  
>> been...
>>
>> Gotta wonder whoze faces will be plastered on that roulette wheel...
>> LOL  I'm mean, there's the obvious "persons of interest" - Dell, etc.
>> But what if it's  W
>>
>>
>
>
> When I suggested a year and a half ago that Apple itself may have a
> behind the scenes link to x86 going in the direction of PC OS
> developement, and then again earlier this year I suggested behind the
> scenes links to further moves in that direction, I was scoffed and
> derided by some others on this list.
>
> I would say Psystar knows where the "bodies" are buried on this.  I
> speculate that Apple does not want an what was to be an  experiment,
> and the links to an Apple PC OS to be public record.
>
> Interesting news today is also this;
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1747&tag=nl.e550
>
> Reads like a dis-information campaign to me. The type launched to
> arouse curiosity.
> Press hacks have listened well to Barnum and Goebbels.
>
> When Windows seven is marketed toward Apple owners for their Intels do
> you think the
> "party line" wiull remain the same? Or will 7 look and act a lot more
> like Mac OS?  Still think Apple is NOT interested at all in the
> general PC OS market?
>
> What would a list of Psystar's possible codefendants reveal. What  
> does Apple
> not want us to know?
>
> >

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 3, 2008, at 8:37 PM, AIM Mail wrote:

> I have too many thoughts on this subject to list right now, but I have
> a feeling that Apple actually is behind this in a way...I will post
> more later, but who else has noticed that since they've hit the scene,
> the Mac mini has been all but forgotten?. And BTW, I have a feeling
> that Apple and MS are very cozy ever since the Apple/Intel deal via.
> some info I aquired from a friend who's company handles Apple's
> smaller legal matters, such as Pystar...and Intel is not at all happy

Ever notice that regardless of designation (Pentium Dual Core, Core 2  
Solo, Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad, and, most recently, Atom) most Intel  
processors are actually Core 2 processors, and, therefore, are fully  
capable (with some hacker help) of running "vanilla" Leopard?

I have 10.5.5 running on an MSI Wind (Atom 230) right now!

Intel is the one who is cleaning up on hardware, not Apple.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:37 PM, AIM Mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have too many thoughts on this subject to list right now, but I have
> a feeling that Apple actually is behind this in a way...I will post
> more later, but who else has noticed that since they've hit the scene,
> the Mac mini has been all but forgotten?. And BTW, I have a feeling
> that Apple and MS are very cozy ever since the Apple/Intel deal via.
> some info I aquired from a friend who's company handles Apple's
> smaller legal matters, such as Pystar...and Intel is not at all happy
> with this.

Apple and MS? You may want to read up on How Bill gates got his start.
And who gave Stave Jobs a huge "loan" when he came back to Apple. I
wager they are greeat friends.
Intel not happy? they even partner with AMD on research. So what's not
to be happy about?
Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>
> I desperately need to read up on Win7 and MS intentions with it. Can
> someone provide some thorough links for me? Thanks a million.
>

Join CNET and Tech Republics lists. Technorati also.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

> Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
> heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.

Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.

IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a  
lot of it is "captive".

The PowerPC platform is still very much active, although not in Macs.

Billions of PPC chips, some of these being highly integrated, exist  
in everything from automobiles to appliances.

My import SUV has five PPC chips in various subsystems, controlling  
everything from its engine controls to its braking system to its  
traction control system (AWD) to its security system.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
> You may want to read up on How Bill gates got his start.


Bill Gates got his start by dropping out of Harvard and with his  
Harvard room mate,  selling a version of Basic for the Altair and  
other early computers.

> And who gave Stave Jobs a huge "loan" when he came back to Apple

Oh come ON! Stop with the imaginary history here.

Microsoft paid $150 million for (non-voting) stock (with a "cannot  
sell prior to" date on the transaction) and guaranteed the  
continuation of MS Office for five years because they got caught  
stealing patented Quicktime code for WMP.

That was a court settlement over patent infringement. That Apple  
structured the settlement as a public 'vote of confidence from MS' was  
part of the deal, but yeah, it was a deal like Don Corleone did for  
Johnny Fontane in "The Godfather".

They had a legal gun to Bill's head.

--
Bruce Johnson

"No matter where you go, there you are", B. Banzai


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

At 5:01 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.

What Peter said.

Plus... Don't forget IBM's Power processors.  The current batch from 
IBM are very nice, and in many environments they run circles around 
the stuff from Intel.  PowerPC is a subset of the Power architecture.

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>> Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>> heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>
> Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.

But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
brandishing Motorola stickers.
>
> IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
> lot of it is "captive".
>

Embedded industrial drones I presume.

> The PowerPC platform is still very much active, although not in Macs.
>
> Billions of PPC chips, some of these being highly integrated, exist
> in everything from automobiles to appliances.

Embedded Industrial drones.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Bruce Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>
>> You may want to read up on How Bill gates got his start.
>
>
> Bill Gates got his start by dropping out of Harvard and with his
> Harvard room mate,  selling a version of Basic for the Altair and
> other early computers.
>
>> And who gave Stave Jobs a huge "loan" when he came back to Apple
>
> Oh come ON! Stop with the imaginary history here.
>
> Microsoft paid $150 million for (non-voting) stock (with a "cannot
> sell prior to" date on the transaction) and guaranteed the
> continuation of MS Office for five years because they got caught
> stealing patented Quicktime code for WMP.
>
> That was a court settlement over patent infringement. That Apple
> structured the settlement as a public 'vote of confidence from MS' was
> part of the deal, but yeah, it was a deal like Don Corleone did for
> Johnny Fontane in "The Godfather".
>
> They had a legal gun to Bill's head.
>
> --



That is not the way it was reported at the time. And the figure
reorted at the time was over $ 200 mill.

We may be talking about two different events.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dennis Myhand]

Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>> Microsoft paid $150 million for (non-voting) stock (with a "cannot
>> sell prior to" date on the transaction) and guaranteed the
>> continuation of MS Office for five years because they got caught
>> stealing patented Quicktime code for WMP.
>>
>> That was a court settlement over patent infringement. That Apple
>> structured the settlement as a public 'vote of confidence from MS' was
>> part of the deal, but yeah, it was a deal like Don Corleone did for
>> Johnny Fontane in "The Godfather".
>>
>> They had a legal gun to Bill's head.
>>
>> --
> 
> 
> 
> That is not the way it was reported at the time. And the figure
> reorted at the time was over $ 200 mill.
> 
> We may be talking about two different events.
> 

I remember the 150mill amount.  And Microsoft doing that as part of a 
settlement because of IP infringement just rings far too true.  Most of 
the "work" M$ seems to have done in "product development" seems to 
involve stealing other peoples' code.  This goes back well before 
Stacker but that seems to be the case which clued the press into the 
fact that M$ steals stuff from other people and calls it their own. 
Whatever the result in this case, two things will happen, and both are 
inevitable.  Apple will keep trying to protect their IP and people will 
keep trying to port OS X to other hardware besides what Apple 
authorizes.  OS X is what you get when you pay programmers and hold them 
to certain standards.  Vista is what you get when you simply pay them 
and don't give a damn about it working.  Peace, Dennis in Edna


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:51 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:


> We may be talking about two different events.


I'm talking about the 1997 MacWorld, where Bill's Giant Head appeared  
on stage to announce Office 98.



The settlement didn't become public knowledge right away, iirc, in  
fact it came to light during the federal case against MS :




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

At 10:47 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>  >> Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>>>  heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>>
>>  Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.
>
>But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
>brandishing Motorola stickers.

Right.   Except for some boxes that run Linux, Motorola/Freescale is 
basically out of the desktop/laptop biz.  T'was never a big market 
for those companies.  Yea, Apple was a drop in their bucket, if that. 
They were and are doing just fine embedding in other products.  That 
was a big sticking point with Apple: Apple was unable to influence 
them into prioritizing production of the faster PowerPC chips.

...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly 
after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC 
chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...

>  > IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
>>  lot of it is "captive".
>
>Embedded industrial drones I presume.

IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and 
supersupercomputer markets.

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Dan wrote:

> ...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly
> after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC
> chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...

Then Intel leapfrogged 'em both.

 [Ars Technica]

"We're not quite ready to release a full set of test results, but  
trust me when I say this thing isfast. How fast? Fast enough that a  
one-socket Nehalem system armed with a top-end, $999 Core i7-965 could  
be an extremely cost-effective solution for anyone in the market for a  
dual-socket Xeon system outfitted with two quad-core processors."


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:16 AM, Dan wrote:

>>> IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
>>>  lot of it is "captive".
>>
>> Embedded industrial drones I presume.
>
> IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
> supersupercomputer markets.


PPC is a winner, even though it is not a winner on people's desktops  
and laptops.

LANL reportedly has 131,072 PPC processors in a cluster performing  
everything from thermonuclear bomb simulation to Human genome research.

Most fibrechannel apparatus is PPC-based.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

At 9:42 AM -0700 12/4/2008, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Dan wrote:
>  > ...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly
>>  after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC
>>  chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...
>
>Then Intel leapfrogged 'em both.

And so it goes, the neverending cycle.

Which brings me back to my believe that Apple should do an open Mac 
OS X, so we can take advantage of 3/3 of the cycle instead of 1/3.  I 
know, I know... we'll just have to disagree on that.

- Dan.  (waiting for the mp3 player to boot).
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[James E. Therrault]

Dan wrote:

> At 5:01 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
> 
>>Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>>heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
> 
> 
> What Peter said.
> 
> Plus... Don't forget IBM's Power processors.  The current batch from 
> IBM are very nice, and in many environments they run circles around 
> the stuff from Intel.  PowerPC is a subset of the Power architecture.
> 
> - Dan.


It's a shame that IBM was not up to the task of delivering low power 
Power PC chips for laptops. But this is nothing new, IBM failed to adapt 
their (PS 2) OS to the Power PC maintaining compatibility with earlier 
versions of the OS on Intel processors.

To me, I would have favored an alliance with AMD rather than Intel. 
Apple could have become part owner etc.

Oh well, I'm just an old man, nobody listens to me!



JT



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[James E. Therrault]

Dan wrote:

> At 10:47 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>> >> Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>>
 heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>>>
>>> Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.
>>
>>But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
>>brandishing Motorola stickers.
> 
> 
> Right.   Except for some boxes that run Linux, Motorola/Freescale is 
> basically out of the desktop/laptop biz.  T'was never a big market 
> for those companies.  Yea, Apple was a drop in their bucket, if that. 
> They were and are doing just fine embedding in other products.  That 
> was a big sticking point with Apple: Apple was unable to influence 
> them into prioritizing production of the faster PowerPC chips.
> 
> ...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly 
> after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC 
> chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...
> 
> 
>> > IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
>>
>>> lot of it is "captive".
>>
>>Embedded industrial drones I presume.
> 
> 
> IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and 
> supersupercomputer markets.
> 
> - Dan.


And don't forget that MS' X-Box is Power PC.

JT



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Dan wrote:

>
> Which brings me back to my believe that Apple should do an open Mac
> OS X,


That's an underpants gnome business plan

1) Offer Open Mac OS X
2) ?
3) Profit!

Selling OS'es is only profitable when you're getting manufacturers to  
install it on the computers they sell.

Microsoft would have NEVER EVER become the behemoth it is now by  
selling Windows to consumers as an add-on product. Their money has  
ALWAYS come from computer manufacturers paying them to pre-install  
Windows on their systems.

Apple will never make more money letting Dell sell OS X computers than  
Apple selling OS X computers. This is the Clone Lesson.

The clones NEVER expanded Apple's market share; they merely undercut  
Apple's profits.

(all besides the fact that MS will never let Dell and HP get away with  
selling OS X computers rather than Windows ones.)

Apple's competitors are companies like Acer, HP and Dell, NOT MICROSOFT.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 10:54 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:

> To me, I would have favored an alliance with AMD rather than Intel.
> Apple could have become part owner etc.

The difference between you and Apple is that you're not privy to  
Intel's private development roadmap and skunkworks. If people haven't  
noticed, Intel has been crushing AMD in the last two years, and the  
ongoing developments we do know about make it certainly appear that  
this is something that will continue.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

At 10:57 AM -0700 12/4/2008, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>Apple will never make more money letting Dell sell OS X computers than 
>Apple selling OS X computers. This is the Clone Lesson.

This is where we're going to have to disagree forever, I guess.

Dell et al are going to sell those computers, no matter what.  The 
question is who gets the $20 to $40 per seat for the OS installed 
thereon - Microsloth or Apple?

So what if Apple doesn't make as big a profit selling OS X as it does 
selling Macs.  Duh - $129 vs $1200+ per unit retail.  The point is to 
capitalize on a product they already make!  Right now, they're making 
$0 selling OS X to that portion of the market.

As for your clone argument... pt.  The clone situation failed 
because they offered machines that had the same performance and were 
otherwise often better than Apple's.  The situation is different 
today.  Apple has gaping holes in their product line - into which 
Dell/et al's current offerings fit nicely.  Let Apple stick to their 
supposed high-end pretty crap.  If that ends up digging into Apple 
Corp's market share, so be it.  Maybe they'll wake-the-f-up and offer 
computers that people really need.

Right now... I look at my client base... I see they're going to buy 
about 1000 computers in the coming year.  Maybe 100 will be Apple 
iMacs.  After that Consumer Report study, plus their experiences over 
the past month+, they certainly won't buy ANY MacBook or MacBook Pro. 
Maybe a few Mac Pros.  The rest will ALL be peecees, laptops and 
desktops.  They hate XP so they'll probably do Linux on most. 
They're watching the Psystar case closely... They really want OS X 
but they just aren't going to spend $1200+ per seat for general 
office / secretarial / manager type computers.

>Apple's competitors are companies like Acer, HP and Dell, NOT MICROSOFT.

That's yesterday's thinking.  Tomorrow is going to be very different.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

At 10:59 AM -0700 12/4/2008, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Dec 4, 2008, at 10:54 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:
>  > To me, I would have favored an alliance with AMD rather than Intel.
>>  Apple could have become part owner etc.
>
>The difference between you and Apple is that you're not privy to 
>Intel's private development roadmap and skunkworks. If people haven't 
>noticed, Intel has been crushing AMD in the last two years, and the 
>ongoing developments we do know about make it certainly appear that
>this is something that will continue.

As long as reliability isn't made a consumer purchase decision issue...

But does it have cup holders?

What color?

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Mark]

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>
> Apple's competitors are companies like Acer, HP and Dell, NOT MICROSOFT.
>
>   
The competition is actually a weird combination of hardware and OS.
I love the fact that Dell's Linux packages are the same price as their 
Windows packages.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>> To me, I would have favored an alliance with AMD rather than Intel.
>> Apple could have become part owner etc.
>
> The difference between you and Apple is that you're not privy to
> Intel's private development roadmap and skunkworks. If people haven't
> noticed, Intel has been crushing AMD in the last two years, and the
> ongoing developments we do know about make it certainly appear that
> this is something that will continue.

Look for AMD to be gone in a year. Two at the most.

Thereafter, they'll be an IP licensor.

Probably of graphics hardware.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:54 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:

> It's a shame that IBM was not up to the task of delivering low power
> Power PC chips for laptops. But this is nothing new, IBM failed to  
> adapt
> their (PS 2) OS to the Power PC maintaining compatibility with earlier
> versions of the OS on Intel processors.

IBM was very late with the G5 primarily because it didn't want to  
include Altivec in its then next generation PPC.

Yet, when that next generation came out, it did indeed have Altivec.

IBM is quite happy making highly integrated PPC "solutions" for the  
very, very, very large volume clients out there,

In a very real sense, Apple was just one fly on IBM's many sh!ts.

Still, IBM is cranking out PPC chips by the gazillions, for its own  
use, and for others, and it really doesn't miss Apple's business.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[James E. Therrault]

PeterH wrote:

> 
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:54 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:
> 
> 
>>It's a shame that IBM was not up to the task of delivering low power
>>Power PC chips for laptops. But this is nothing new, IBM failed to  
>>adapt
>>their (PS 2) OS to the Power PC maintaining compatibility with earlier
>>versions of the OS on Intel processors.
> 
> 
> IBM was very late with the G5 primarily because it didn't want to  
> include Altivec in its then next generation PPC.
> 
> Yet, when that next generation came out, it did indeed have Altivec.
> 
> IBM is quite happy making highly integrated PPC "solutions" for the  
> very, very, very large volume clients out there,
> 
> In a very real sense, Apple was just one fly on IBM's many sh!ts.
> 
> Still, IBM is cranking out PPC chips by the gazillions, for its own  
> use, and for others, and it really doesn't miss Apple's business.
> 


I'll stick with my statement.

I have worked with IBM as a contractor and generally this company was a 
large inflexible monolith where the term "innovation" was virtually a 
non entity.

If one makes an agreement, it should be kept.

JT



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 10:47 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  > On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>  >> Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
  heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>>>
>>>  Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.
>>
>>But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
>>brandishing Motorola stickers.
>
> Right.   Except for some boxes that run Linux, Motorola/Freescale is
> basically out of the desktop/laptop biz.  T'was never a big market
> for those companies.  Yea, Apple was a drop in their bucket, if that.
> They were and are doing just fine embedding in other products.  That
> was a big sticking point with Apple: Apple was unable to influence
> them into prioritizing production of the faster PowerPC chips.
>
> ...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly
> after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC
> chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...
>
>>  > IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
>>>  lot of it is "captive".
>>
>>Embedded industrial drones I presume.
>
> IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
> supersupercomputer markets.
>


Cool, I can get one by trash picking in 10 years! LOL :)

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:21 PM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>>> To me, I would have favored an alliance with AMD rather than Intel.
>>> Apple could have become part owner etc.
>>
>> The difference between you and Apple is that you're not privy to
>> Intel's private development roadmap and skunkworks. If people haven't
>> noticed, Intel has been crushing AMD in the last two years, and the
>> ongoing developments we do know about make it certainly appear that
>> this is something that will continue.
>
> Look for AMD to be gone in a year. Two at the most.
>
> Thereafter, they'll be an IP licensor.
>
> Probably of graphics hardware.
>


May well be so. the ATI buy was a big gamble, even before the recession.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:12 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

>> IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
>> supersupercomputer markets.
>>
>
>
> Cool, I can get one by trash picking in 10 years! LOL :)

Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one  
hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software license.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Kris Tilford]

On Dec 5, 2008, at 1:16 AM, PeterH wrote:

> Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one
> hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software license.

I thought IBM was pushing Linux now?
I thought they're a "service" company, not a "software" company?


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:16 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:12 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>>> IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
>>> supersupercomputer markets.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Cool, I can get one by trash picking in 10 years! LOL :)
>
> Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one
> hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software license.


Even if I don't give it a line to call home? ;-)

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dennis Myhand]

Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:16 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one
>> hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software license.
> 
> 
> Even if I don't give it a line to call home? ;-)
> 

You only have to pay that if you use IBM's software.  By then, I'm sure 
there will be "other" software available.


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 5, 2008, at 12:25 AM, Kris Tilford wrote:

>
> On Dec 5, 2008, at 1:16 AM, PeterH wrote:
>
>> Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one
>> hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software  
>> license.
>
> I thought IBM was pushing Linux now?
> I thought they're a "service" company, not a "software" company?

They're pushing linux, yes. Hundreds or thousands of virtualized linux  
servers per mainframe, for which they'll charge you $100K/month for  
the software and support. Still cheaper than running hundreds or  
thousands of individual linux boxen.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Dan]

At 8:37 AM -0500 12/5/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On 12/4/08, Dan wrote:
>>As for your clone argument... pt.  The clone situation failed 
>>because they offered machines that had the same performance and 
>>were otherwise often better than Apple's.
>
>I don't understand what you're saying.
>Clones failed because they were better but less costly?

 From the cloner's POV, business was good and growing.  They were 
offering great quality machines for less than Apple -- exactly what 
the market wanted.

 From Apple's POV, it was a nightmare.  The clone systems "overlapped" 
Apple's offerings, instead of complementing them, so people were 
buying clones instead of real Apples.  It market, as a whole, didn't 
grow!  Apple just lost sales to the cloners.

I think today's situation is different.  Apple has gigantic holes in 
their product line that they seem to have no interest in fixing. 
Customers are fast reaching a tipping point in their hatred of 
MS/viruses/Vista.  If the likes of Dell and HP were allowed to offer 
OS X, it would immediately fill in the product gaps, and the whole 
market would explode...

1) Low-cost laptop.
2) Low-cost home desktop.
3) Low-cost office desktop.
4) Mid-range *expandable* desktop.

iMac, Mac Pro, MB, and MBP are best-in-class for *high-end* desktops 
and laptops - totally unaffordable or undesirable by people that buy 
(1) thru (4).

Ok.  The down side... Those other vendors also have high-end systems. 
Apple would have Real Competition for the first time in its history. 
They'd have to get get moving to keep up.  In the laptop market... 
they'd have to fix the reliability problems (23% repair rate is the 
worst in the industry) to survive.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:07 PM, James E. Therrault wrote:

>
> I have worked with IBM as a contractor and generally this company  
> was a
> large inflexible monolith where the term "innovation" was virtually a
> non entity.

For the manufacturing, integration and operations arms of the company,  
yes, hence the essentially guerilla nature of the original PC  
development operation in Boca. (which I'm fairly certain was the model  
for the Pirates of the Mac development team.)

On the other hand, IBM's research operations have been a massive font  
of innovation.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 5, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Dennis Myhand wrote:

>>> Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one
>>> hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software  
>>> license.
>>
>>
>> Even if I don't give it a line to call home? ;-)
>>
>
> You only have to pay that if you use IBM's software.  By then, I'm  
> sure
> there will be "other" software available.

If that hardware is System/370 (perhaps the earliest usable hardware  
at this point), then you DO have to option of using certain System/ 
370 software which is public domain, and that generally means MVS/370  
Release 3.8j.

It is still very capable software, bit it is still over THIRTY YEARS  
OLD.

Any software after that will be a Program Product, and will be  
charged-for, even though it may be an unsupported release.

Certain System/390 products are much, much more current, but all of  
that is Program Product.

Same comment for z/System.

Bottom line: you might be able to pick up some IBM enterprise-level  
servers (or systems) on ePay, or elsewhere, for a song, or even for  
free, but you will pay for the software license at the current  
"tier", which is low for single processors, and is proportionally  
much, much higher for 16-way processors [ * ] .

IBM software does not "phone home", but IBM has its ways of  
discovering illegal use of its Intellectual Properly, and I  
personally know of at least four cases where IBM sued for violation  
of its IP license terms and conditions, and the settlement amount was  
$500,000,000 (yes, five hundred million dollars) for each count.

The actual license charge would have been much, much less, of course,  
but IBM received a stepped-up settlement on the basis of a blatant  
disregard for its IP rights.

[ * ] A relatively full suite of operating system and utility  
software for a dual processor System/370 could be $120,000 per month.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:23 PM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Dennis Myhand wrote:
>
 Perhaps zero cost for the hardware, but IBM will charge you one
 hundred thousand dollars PER MONTH, or more, for the software
 license.
>>>
>>>
>>> Even if I don't give it a line to call home? ;-)
>>>
>>
>> You only have to pay that if you use IBM's software.  By then, I'm
>> sure
>> there will be "other" software available.
>
> If that hardware is System/370 (perhaps the earliest usable hardware
> at this point), then you DO have to option of using certain System/
> 370 software which is public domain, and that generally means MVS/370
> Release 3.8j.
>
> It is still very capable software, bit it is still over THIRTY YEARS
> OLD.
>
> Any software after that will be a Program Product, and will be
> charged-for, even though it may be an unsupported release.
>
> Certain System/390 products are much, much more current, but all of
> that is Program Product.
>
> Same comment for z/System.
>
> Bottom line: you might be able to pick up some IBM enterprise-level
> servers (or systems) on ePay, or elsewhere, for a song, or even for
> free, but you will pay for the software license at the current
> "tier", which is low for single processors, and is proportionally
> much, much higher for 16-way processors [ * ] .
>
> IBM software does not "phone home", but IBM has its ways of
> discovering illegal use of its Intellectual Properly, and I
> personally know of at least four cases where IBM sued for violation
> of its IP license terms and conditions, and the settlement amount was
> $500,000,000 (yes, five hundred million dollars) for each count.
>
> The actual license charge would have been much, much less, of course,
> but IBM received a stepped-up settlement on the basis of a blatant
> disregard for its IP rights.
>
> [ * ] A relatively full suite of operating system and utility
> software for a dual processor System/370 could be $120,000 per month.
>


Does that include glassware featuring the latest super hero movie art
and a set of steak knives?

Hey, just asking here! :)

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 6, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:

> Does that include glassware featuring the latest super hero movie art
> and a set of steak knives?
>
> Hey, just asking here! :)

It includes a warranty for freedom from software defects, which is  
more than Micro$shaft will give you.

ABENDs (abnormal ends) of application programs are rare, and ABENDs  
of the system programs are unheard of.

Most customers IPL (mainframe-speak for boot or reboot) once  a year,  
or less often than that.

If you want a system to go 24/7 with no outages, an IBM mainframe is  
the way to go.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Ralph]

Howdy,
 Most intel processors are Core 2 architecture these days.  But, the
Atom is very different.  It executes the same instruction set and is
compatible enough for OSX.  It was brought to us by the Intel team in
Austin that designed the P4 and suffers from a deep pipeline, just like
the P4.  It seems to me that a Atom 330 would make a pretty nice OSX
box.  I'd really like it in something like a eeepc, so lets see what
2009 will bring.
  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-atom-cpu,1947-5.html
 There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.
Good day,
Ralph

On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 20:48 -0800, PeterH wrote:
> Ever notice that regardless of designation (Pentium Dual Core, Core 2  
> Solo, Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad, and, most recently, Atom) most Intel  
> processors are actually Core 2 processors, and, therefore, are fully  
> capable (with some hacker help) of running "vanilla" Leopard?
> 
> I have 10.5.5 running on an MSI Wind (Atom 230) right now!



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Ralph]

Howdy,
  There is a better explanation.  Dell won't answer the question, but I
have seen other analysts say that Dell pays Microsoft a license fee for
every one of the Linux machines sold.  Their agreement is that they pay
the license fee for every computer shipped.  I have seen similar reports
from other computer vendors.  They say the license fee that Microsoft
gets is ridiculous unless the vendor agrees to pay it for every machine
shipped.  One vendor that only sells Linux laptops told a member of a
local computer group that he even pays the license fee to Microsoft.  He
said he could not get computers until he agreed to do that.
Good day,
Ralph

On Fri, 2008-12-05 at 03:43 -0600, lampbay wrote:
> > 
> The competition is actually a weird combination of hardware and OS.
> I love the fact that Dell's Linux packages are the same price as their
> Windows packages.
..
> Because the major cost is in the hardware not the OEM OS installed.

> 


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Ralph wrote:

> There is a better explanation.  Dell won't answer the question, but I
> have seen other analysts say that Dell pays Microsoft a license fee  
> for
> every one of the Linux machines sold.  Their agreement is that they  
> pay
> the license fee for every computer shipped.

That is a standard Microsoft contract ploy: a license for Windows is  
applied to every machine which a manufacturer produces, irrespective  
of which OS is actually supplied.

Dell (or whomever) therefore has no reason to offer a competitive OS  
as it will, thereby, be in a financial disadvantage.


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Ralph wrote:

> There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
> pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.

So what problem do you have with PDF's, they're an open, public format.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Ralph]

On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 08:39 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Ralph wrote:
> 
> > There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
> > pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.
> 
> So what problem do you have with PDF's, they're an open, public format.
> 
  Not really.  I will give Adobe credit for honestly documenting the
format.  That puts them way ahead of what Microsoft did with ooxml.  The
PDF format has been documented for a long time and version 1.7 has
become an ISO standard.  Up until version 1.7, it was always a
proprietary, openly documented format.  But, it was still proprietary,
with only Adobe controlling the format.  I'll see how the ISO 32000
format works out.  If it is widely adopted, I will be more open to
pointing to those documents.  As of now, most PDFs on the web are not
version 1.7.  I don't want to take the chance that some PDF I would
point to would only open in the Adobe product.  In that case, I would be
indirectly suggesting that someone install the Adobe PDF reader.  The
license for the Adobe PDF reader is objectionable and I would not want
to spread its adoption.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:53 AM, Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>  There is a better explanation.  Dell won't answer the question, but I
> have seen other analysts say that Dell pays Microsoft a license fee for
> every one of the Linux machines sold.  Their agreement is that they pay
> the license fee for every computer shipped.  I have seen similar reports
> from other computer vendors.  They say the license fee that Microsoft
> gets is ridiculous unless the vendor agrees to pay it for every machine
> shipped.  One vendor that only sells Linux laptops told a member of a
> local computer group that he even pays the license fee to Microsoft.  He
> said he could not get computers until he agreed to do that.
> Good day,
> Ralph
>
> On Fri, 2008-12-05 at 03:43 -0600, lampbay wrote:
>> >
>> The competition is actually a weird combination of hardware and OS.
>> I love the fact that Dell's Linux packages are the same price as their
>> Windows packages.
> ..
>> Because the major cost is in the hardware not the OEM OS installed.



Whoopeee! Racketeering and monopolistic practices are above the law!

Wonderful news!

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[glen]

- Original Message 
> From: Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 4:22:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 08:39 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Ralph wrote:
> > 
> > > There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
> > > pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.
> > 
> > So what problem do you have with PDF's, they're an open, public format.
> > 
>   Not really.  I will give Adobe credit for honestly documenting the
> format.  That puts them way ahead of what Microsoft did with ooxml.  The
> PDF format has been documented for a long time and version 1.7 has
> become an ISO standard.  Up until version 1.7, it was always a
> proprietary, openly documented format.  But, it was still proprietary,
> with only Adobe controlling the format.  I'll see how the ISO 32000
> format works out.  If it is widely adopted, I will be more open to
> pointing to those documents.  As of now, most PDFs on the web are not
> version 1.7.  I don't want to take the chance that some PDF I would
> point to would only open in the Adobe product.  In that case, I would be
> indirectly suggesting that someone install the Adobe PDF reader.  The
> license for the Adobe PDF reader is objectionable and I would not want
> to spread its adoption.


The Preview app in OS X has never failed to open a .pdf  when needed.

Also love the  OS X print function "Save As PDF..." in the print dialog box, 
very useful and no Adobe software needed.

So I really don't understand why PDF files should be pointed to on the web with 
caution. If someone does have to use Adobe Reader what is so objectionable in 
the license agreement? It is free.

I been using PFD's since my first Mac's and SE and a Mac II. And in my business 
PDF's are essential.

I respect your concern but do not understand it. --glen



  

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[James E. Therrault]

Ralph wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 08:39 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Ralph wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
>>>pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.
>>
>>So what problem do you have with PDF's, they're an open, public format.
>>
> 
>   Not really.  I will give Adobe credit for honestly documenting the
> format.  That puts them way ahead of what Microsoft did with ooxml.  The
> PDF format has been documented for a long time and version 1.7 has
> become an ISO standard.  Up until version 1.7, it was always a
> proprietary, openly documented format.  But, it was still proprietary,
> with only Adobe controlling the format.  I'll see how the ISO 32000
> format works out.  If it is widely adopted, I will be more open to
> pointing to those documents.  As of now, most PDFs on the web are not
> version 1.7.  I don't want to take the chance that some PDF I would
> point to would only open in the Adobe product.  In that case, I would be
> indirectly suggesting that someone install the Adobe PDF reader.  The
> license for the Adobe PDF reader is objectionable and I would not want
> to spread its adoption.
> 


This logic is akin to someone attempting to swim upstream through 
Niagara Falls...

JT


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[AIM Mail]

Wow, u just hit the nail on the head...read my mind. Joey.

__

Sent from Joey's iPhone 3G 2.1 on AT&T's all-new wireless network.  
Visit www.apple.com/iphone for more information.

Apple & AT&T - Raising the Bar.

On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:03 PM, "James E. Therrault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 > wrote:

>
> Ralph wrote:
>> On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 08:39 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Ralph wrote:
>>>
>>>
 There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
 pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.
>>>
>>> So what problem do you have with PDF's, they're an open, public  
>>> format.
>>>
>>
>>  Not really.  I will give Adobe credit for honestly documenting the
>> format.  That puts them way ahead of what Microsoft did with  
>> ooxml.  The
>> PDF format has been documented for a long time and version 1.7 has
>> become an ISO standard.  Up until version 1.7, it was always a
>> proprietary, openly documented format.  But, it was still  
>> proprietary,
>> with only Adobe controlling the format.  I'll see how the ISO 32000
>> format works out.  If it is widely adopted, I will be more open to
>> pointing to those documents.  As of now, most PDFs on the web are not
>> version 1.7.  I don't want to take the chance that some PDF I would
>> point to would only open in the Adobe product.  In that case, I  
>> would be
>> indirectly suggesting that someone install the Adobe PDF reader.  The
>> license for the Adobe PDF reader is objectionable and I would not  
>> want
>> to spread its adoption.
>>
>
>
> This logic is akin to someone attempting to swim upstream through
> Niagara Falls...
>
> JT
>
>
> >

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:58 PM, James E. Therrault
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dan wrote:
>
>> At 10:47 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> > On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>> >> Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>>>
> heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.

 Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.
>>>
>>>But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
>>>brandishing Motorola stickers.
>>
>>
>> Right.   Except for some boxes that run Linux, Motorola/Freescale is
>> basically out of the desktop/laptop biz.  T'was never a big market
>> for those companies.  Yea, Apple was a drop in their bucket, if that.
>> They were and are doing just fine embedding in other products.  That
>> was a big sticking point with Apple: Apple was unable to influence
>> them into prioritizing production of the faster PowerPC chips.
>>
>> ...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly
>> after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC
>> chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...
>>
>>
>>> > IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
>>>
 lot of it is "captive".
>>>
>>>Embedded industrial drones I presume.
>>
>>
>> IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
>> supersupercomputer markets.
>>
>> - Dan.
>
>
> And don't forget that MS' X-Box is Power PC.
>
> JT
>


Had mine open 2 years ago for an optical drive replacement. Guess I
didn't know what i was looking at. Odd as I thought I would recognize
any PPC chip.

I have read it is basically like a 733 MHz laptop setup. I never read
of any PPC cpu in there.
What I do know is that for it's age and price it can sling some fast
3D rendering on the fly.
Any Flatout2 fans out there? I'm lookin' ta race.

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Bruce Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Dan wrote:
>
>>
>> Which brings me back to my believe that Apple should do an open Mac
>> OS X,
>
>
> That's an underpants gnome business plan
>
> 1) Offer Open Mac OS X
> 2) ?
> 3) Profit!
>
> Selling OS'es is only profitable when you're getting manufacturers to
> install it on the computers they sell.

Marketing an already proven OS that has long been published but never
marketed for the system it was developed on in a market niche that
cries for something better is a gamble. one that could pay off big if
anyone had the guts to try.Since the technology has been worked out
long ago ALL that is needed is a miniuscule rewrite, some advertising
and some packaging.


>
> Microsoft would have NEVER EVER become the behemoth it is now by
> selling Windows to consumers as an add-on product. Their money has
> ALWAYS come from computer manufacturers paying them to pre-install
> Windows on their systems.

More income is more income. Becoming a behemoth is not the goal.
Providing a better OS in a market in dire need of one is a very worthy
goal. Whio gives a  if it becomes an OEM for other manufacturers
there are real needs outside of the very cramped expectations of
platform elitists.
>
> Apple will never make more money letting Dell sell OS X computers than
> Apple selling OS X computers. This is the Clone Lesson.
>
> The clones NEVER expanded Apple's market share; they merely undercut
> Apple's profits.

Here i thought that THE " clone lesson " was develop your OS for the
future on the processors you intend to use years down the road without
alienating your user base. Set the stage for massive migration to
another CPU. Let developers get real good at it then forbid anyone to
use it on non kosher machines with the same CPU when you make your own
computers the ACTUAL CLONES!
>
> (all besides the fact that MS will never let Dell and HP get away with
> selling OS X computers rather than Windows ones.)

Just as MS FORBIDS them from making Linux machines?  Hmmm?
>
> Apple's competitors are companies like Acer, HP and Dell, NOT MICROSOFT.

Oh you mean the same companies that ASUS clones the boards for that
Apple sells, right?


And since Microsoft owns the world Apple could not and should not
compete in that off the shelf PC OS market or the sky will fall?

Also an Apple OS on a PC would never be as good as Windows anyway. PC
users would see what a pile of crap An Apple OS is? Is that the point?
An Apple PC OS would never cut the mustard in the PC user market
right?

And if it did it would mean an end to Apple PC clone  ( Macs to us)
manufacture?  Like Apple does not have the money or smarts to stay in
the market, right?

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[James E. Therrault]

Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:58 PM, James E. Therrault
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>Dan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At 10:47 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>>
>>>
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>>Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't

>>heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>
>Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.

But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
brandishing Motorola stickers.
>>>
>>>
>>>Right.   Except for some boxes that run Linux, Motorola/Freescale is
>>>basically out of the desktop/laptop biz.  T'was never a big market
>>>for those companies.  Yea, Apple was a drop in their bucket, if that.
>>>They were and are doing just fine embedding in other products.  That
>>>was a big sticking point with Apple: Apple was unable to influence
>>>them into prioritizing production of the faster PowerPC chips.
>>>
>>>...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly
>>>after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC
>>>chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a

>lot of it is "captive".

Embedded industrial drones I presume.
>>>
>>>
>>>IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
>>>supersupercomputer markets.
>>>
>>>- Dan.
>>
>>
>>And don't forget that MS' X-Box is Power PC.
>>
>>JT
>>
> 
> 
> 
> Had mine open 2 years ago for an optical drive replacement. Guess I
> didn't know what i was looking at. Odd as I thought I would recognize
> any PPC chip.
> 
> I have read it is basically like a 733 MHz laptop setup. I never read
> of any PPC cpu in there.
> What I do know is that for it's age and price it can sling some fast
> 3D rendering on the fly.
> Any Flatout2 fans out there? I'm lookin' ta race.
> 


The changeover occurred two or three years ago.  Here's an interesting link:


http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=10265


JT


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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[PeterH]

On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:02 AM, James E. Therrault wrote:

> The changeover occurred two or three years ago.  Here's an  
> interesting link:

Three- and six-core PPC chips are planned, or are in production, by  
IBM, and others.

Remember, Apple recently bought-out a foundryless semi house which  
specialized in advanced PPC chips, presumably those being highly- 
integrated, and highly energy-efficient. Perhaps for a future mobile  
product?

PPCs may be off of everyone's desktops and laptops now, but PPCs are  
already in darn near everything else, including servers,  
supercomputers, appliances and automobiles.

I am reminded that my import SUV has five separate PPC-based  
computers. Imagine what one six-core PPC could mean? Dramatic cost  
reductions, or improvements in performance and reliability.



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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:02 PM, James E. Therrault
 wrote:
>
> Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:58 PM, James E. Therrault
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>
At 10:47 AM -0500 12/4/2008, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:


>On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:29 AM, PeterH  wrote:
>
>>On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:01 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>>
>>>Motorola is pretty much out of the picture for CPUs and IBM? Haven't
>
>>>heard of them making CPUs since the G5 passed on.
>>
>>Motorola's CPUs are now made by its spin-off, Freescale.
>
>But for consumer CPUs I hear nothing .  I see no powerful desktops
>brandishing Motorola stickers.


Right.   Except for some boxes that run Linux, Motorola/Freescale is
basically out of the desktop/laptop biz.  T'was never a big market
for those companies.  Yea, Apple was a drop in their bucket, if that.
They were and are doing just fine embedding in other products.  That
was a big sticking point with Apple: Apple was unable to influence
them into prioritizing production of the faster PowerPC chips.

...Of course, no decision gets made without a down side.  Shortly
after Intel released Core, AMD leapfrogged over 'em, then the PowerPC
chips leapfrogged over 'em, then...



>>IBM is still among the largest semi houses in the world, although a
>
>>lot of it is "captive".
>
>Embedded industrial drones I presume.


IBM has targeted Power toward the high-end server and
supersupercomputer markets.

- Dan.
>>>
>>>
>>>And don't forget that MS' X-Box is Power PC.
>>>
>>>JT
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> Had mine open 2 years ago for an optical drive replacement. Guess I
>> didn't know what i was looking at. Odd as I thought I would recognize
>> any PPC chip.
>>
>> I have read it is basically like a 733 MHz laptop setup. I never read
>> of any PPC cpu in there.
>> What I do know is that for it's age and price it can sling some fast
>> 3D rendering on the fly.
>> Any Flatout2 fans out there? I'm lookin' ta race.
>>
>
>
> The changeover occurred two or three years ago.  Here's an interesting link:
>
>
> http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=10265
>
>


OK, without the "360 " tag I thought the "Classic XBox was the one referred to.

We had some LEM discussion about 4 years ago about OS X On the XBox
360 when Dan the List Mom wrote a rave about the possibilities.  OS X
on a powerful lowcost multicore at that time made imaginations reel.
Cheap Kit indeed!

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Re: Apple & Psystar Come To A Settlement!

[Ralph]

Howdy,
  
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 18:03 -0600, James E. Therrault wrote:
> Ralph wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 08:39 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > 
> >>On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Ralph wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>There are Intel documents describing the architecture, but they are
> >>>pdfs and I dislike pointing to proprietary format files.
> >>
> >>So what problem do you have with PDF's, they're an open, public format.
> >>
> > 
> >   Not really.  I will give Adobe credit for honestly documenting the
> > format.  That puts them way ahead of what Microsoft did with ooxml.  The
> > PDF format has been documented for a long time and version 1.7 has
> > become an ISO standard.  Up until version 1.7, it was always a
> > proprietary, openly documented format.  But, it was still proprietary,
> > with only Adobe controlling the format.  I'll see how the ISO 32000
> > format works out.  If it is widely adopted, I will be more open to
> > pointing to those documents.  As of now, most PDFs on the web are not
> > version 1.7.  I don't want to take the chance that some PDF I would
> > point to would only open in the Adobe product.  In that case, I would be
> > indirectly suggesting that someone install the Adobe PDF reader.  The
> > license for the Adobe PDF reader is objectionable and I would not want
> > to spread its adoption.
> > 
> 
> 
> This logic is akin to someone attempting to swim upstream through 
> Niagara Falls...
> 
> JT
  My logic is straightforward, defensible, and based on fact.  If you
can't understand why someone would make a logical choice based on
ethical foundations, you are not alone.  I get this reaction more than I
would like.  I accept that.
Have a good day,
Ralph



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