Re: [Audyssey] Happy Easter

2008-03-24 Thread Cory
ee, smile,

Cory
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Happy Easter


> Hi,
> :Lol! Yeah, too many chocklet bunnies has a way of doing that to you. I
> helped my son eat his and now I have had a few after explosions which
> even flushing it down the drain and spraying air freshener can't quite
> clear the smell. 
>
>
> Andy wrote:
>> Lol, I ate so many candy chocolate eggs, bunnies (even jelly
>> beans)! I'm ready expplode.  Oh wait that already happened...
>>
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Torrent is coming along greatly, according to the site!

2008-03-24 Thread Phil Vlasak
Hi Andy,
The dates on the Surreal Horizons page are from 2007 not 2008.
The last time the page was updated was,
Mar 04, 2007
http://surrealhorizons.com/

- Original Message - 
From: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:23 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] Torrent is coming along greatly, according to the site!


> Hi I was pretty bored, and wanted to see what games were
> available and then remembered Torrent!
> The site has 2 soundbytes available.  The Mac version is almost
> done, the Linux  I think is nearing completion and the Windows
> apparently has not been started yet since it says, "development
> will begin" or something like that so...
>
> Want the site? surrealhorizons.com
> Hope this is of some interest!
>
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Re: [Audyssey] new version of judgemtn day

2008-03-24 Thread Liam Erven
code to make it so you can hear the trophy stuff is super easy.  it's one 
line of code actually.
not sure about mor emusic, but that might be possible.
first suggestion is super easy to do

- Original Message - 
From: "Dark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] new version of judgemtn day


> Hello Liam.
>
> I'm not sure how easy this would be to do, but I'd deffinately appreciate 
> a
> way to hear those litle bits of audio when you recieve each trophy again, 
> I
> remember some of them being quite funny, but it's a long time sinse I got
> some trophies and would certainly like to hear them again, - perhaps 
> by
> pressing enter on each trophy you've got while viewing it in the trophy
> cabinet?
>
> I also would quite like more music in the game if possible, the tune 
> that's
> in there is great already, but something else, - particularly after 
> the
> intermission sequences at level five and I believe level seven would do a
> lot imho for the audio ambience of the game. appologies if either of these
> is incredibly impossible to do, the game's certainly incredibly good
> already.
>
> as reguards speach, I really love the voice acting both in superliam and 
> jd,
> the cutscenes and messages really add a lot to the game's atmosphere, 
> and you play a very convincing villain ;D. While I can certainly see how
> having sapi speak your score,  and maybe menue items as well would 
> make
> things like scoreboards and player names a great deal easier to manage, I
> really hope you'll keep in as much voice acting as you can, - and that
> goes for any future games your working on as well.
>
> beware the Grue!
>
> Dark.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Liam Erven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:04 AM
> Subject: [Audyssey] new version of judgemtn day
>
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I'm working on creating a patch for judgment day to address a few long
>> standing issues.  Is there any suggestions or ideas anyone has?  Try and
>> avoid new feature requests like more levels or new kinds of weapons.  I
>> want to tweak the game and squish any bugs or fix things that don't work
>> right.  If there's small improvements I can make like navigation keys, 
>> and
>> other misc features, let me know.  this is the kind of stuff I want to
>> work on.
>> Sapi speech was one of my ideas.  are people opposed to this?  it would
>> make my life easier inthe long run.
>>
>> Liam
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Re: [Audyssey] new version of judgemtn day

2008-03-24 Thread Dark
Hello Liam.

I'm not sure how easy this would be to do, but I'd deffinately appreciate a 
way to hear those litle bits of audio when you recieve each trophy again, I 
remember some of them being quite funny, but it's a long time sinse I got 
some trophies and would certainly like to hear them again, - perhaps by 
pressing enter on each trophy you've got while viewing it in the trophy 
cabinet?

I also would quite like more music in the game if possible, the tune that's 
in there is great already, but something else, - particularly after the 
intermission sequences at level five and I believe level seven would do a 
lot imho for the audio ambience of the game. appologies if either of these 
is incredibly impossible to do, the game's certainly incredibly good 
already.

as reguards speach, I really love the voice acting both in superliam and jd, 
the cutscenes and messages really add a lot to the game's atmosphere,   
and you play a very convincing villain ;D. While I can certainly see how 
having sapi speak your score,  and maybe menue items as well would make 
things like scoreboards and player names a great deal easier to manage, I 
really hope you'll keep in as much voice acting as you can, - and that 
goes for any future games your working on as well.

beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Liam Erven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:04 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] new version of judgemtn day


> Hi.
>
> I'm working on creating a patch for judgment day to address a few long 
> standing issues.  Is there any suggestions or ideas anyone has?  Try and 
> avoid new feature requests like more levels or new kinds of weapons.  I 
> want to tweak the game and squish any bugs or fix things that don't work 
> right.  If there's small improvements I can make like navigation keys, and 
> other misc features, let me know.  this is the kind of stuff I want to 
> work on.
> Sapi speech was one of my ideas.  are people opposed to this?  it would 
> make my life easier inthe long run.
>
> Liam
> ---
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>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1340 - Release Date: 
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Re: [Audyssey] trailer of mota beta 2

2008-03-24 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Will,
MOTA Beta 2 never got that far to make an audio trailer. Basically, all 
I have is thecore Genesis 3D engine, partly constructed, and the sound 
effects and music I was purchasing and setting aside for it. I'm not 
sure I will continue with the MOTA idea, but I will certain will work on 
the Tumb Hunter series as I now have music, and sounds for the series.


will lomas wrote:
>   tom any chance youc an make a trailer mate of mota beta 2 then so we  
> can hear a little bit of this awsome new game ina ction?
> smile
> will
>
>
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>
>   


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[Audyssey] making a game together

2008-03-24 Thread Claudio
Hello all!
I have a good idea:
What do you think about making a game together?
I mean if l-works, usagames, and so on can build a game together we have a 
good product with high quality!
What i mean, if each developer needs a year or two for create a game with 
huge qualiti it is to long but if several developers make a game together it 
gooes faster and the fun is higer!
Just an idea from my side.
Best regards, Claudio. 


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Re: [Audyssey] blind people and punctuation was Re: thanks a lot.

2008-03-24 Thread Darren H
The reason is likely to do with how screen reader like jaws 
process text.

with correct punctuation, it's far easier to get the sense 
of what someone is saying.

it's also a good habit to get into in case you need to write 
a formal letter.

for example.  i work in tech support.  Most of my 
correspondence are via e-mail.

Imagine what would happen if I didn't use correct 
punctuation?

chances are, if you don't write correctly in e-mail groups 
or discussion forums, it'll bleed over to your more formal 
correspondence, which is a bad reflection on the individual.

Just my view and should be taken as such.
Darren

- Original Message - 
From: "Yohandy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:38 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] blind people and punctuation was Re: 
thanks a lot.


> Gees what's with blind people having this serious 
> obsession with
> punctuation? Yeah I try using correct punctuation, but I 
> don't criticize
> those that don't. fact is people don't really care. all 
> they'll do is use
> even worse punctuation just to annoy you. So please guys 
> do us all a favor
> and drop it already ok? You're just generating 
> unnecessary
> traffic. You say you're mature, so prove it.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Sarah Haake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] thanks a lot.
>
>
>> Hi Ian,
>>
>> I would suggest you take a deep breath, calm down and 
>> learn to write
>> with punctuation before you send your next message. It is 
>> quite possible
>> that it will be readable after all.
>>
>> Thanks a lot.
>>
>> Sarah
>> --
>> "Amicus certus in re incerta cernitur."
>> (Einen sicheren Freund erkennt man in unsicherer Sache.)
>> Cicero
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "ian mcnamara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:25 AM
>> Subject: [Audyssey] thanks a lot.
>>
>>
>>> hi all thanks to the bad apples we are not going to see 
>>> thomas's free
>>> d starwars game and stuff like that so  all i am going 
>>> to say is
>>> thanks a lot to all of you out their who are more 
>>> concerned about
>>> having your type of game that you wanted rather than see 
>>> the changed
>>> copy. you would not have been loosing out on your money 
>>> as your key
>>> would have been still active so you would have been 
>>> getting a better
>>> game with out paying any more money out.,
>>>
>>> so all i can say is thanks a lot
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
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>>> web, at
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>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Audyssey] sidescrollers and third games

2008-03-24 Thread shaun everiss
I think we need to look at this in prospective, we don't have programming teams 
as such, big companies and things.
Heck we don't even have the tech.
No big multiplayer servers, no major companies or networks.
We have 1 or 2 big gaming foundations, including several universitities.
Several 1 man bands, and a few things with directx.
Due to dx changing to xna we may not even have that for much longer.
Sure I'd like  a 3 d game over a shitty side scroler but we are lagging behind.
Lets see.
A couple are on python, some are on autoit.
most of the devs out here are still using vb6.
Some use dotnet c# and vb, one or so use java.
We don't have oodles of bandwidth either.
I always hope it will get better.
But heck we are only operating off home computers really.
Its not like we can aford anything flash well at least most of us can't.
A few can though.
This is beside the point.
Will there be 3d games.
Oh yeah there will be.
How long will we have to have crappy games?
probably for a bit.
Oh we must remember that there will be people including me that have not played 
the old crappy games.
So We have to start from the low end.
I want to know how crappy the games are that were before I advance otherwise 
there is no point.
We try to stay modern without going back to the past.
I'd still like old games with the origional sounds, etc.
There are just not enough of us to go round.
I'm not saying slack off by any means I am just saying that for now we have 
what we have.
If the community grows up to fast it will fall on its face and well I don't 
want that to happen.
So are we ready for more advanced games?
As has been shown on here some of us are not.
And thats fine.
I think there should be more hybrid style games.
With old and new things.
sdm has 3 themes.
And whilst thats real hard to make it means that we will have to battle our way 
to more interesting things.
A trophy system would also be good.
One of the sighted games my friends play is myst, you click icons is what I am 
described and do things.
Not sure how it would work on the blind games but there are vary few point and 
click games.
Not sure if thats possible.
I'd like another hybrid like teraformas.
I'd also like more sighted people to get on board, but accept that may take a 
while.
At 05:09 p.m. 23/03/2008, you wrote:
>but that's what is annoying. why are we making these dull side  
>scrollers, they old crap technology no randomness, no interactions  
>jsut walk forward and backwards, that's why i completed super laim in  
>an hour
>
>On 22 Mar 2008, at 17:14, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
>> Hi Charles,
>> Well, part of the problem here in the blind audio games market is  
>> there
>> isn't enough developers to provide for every single platform and genre
>> of game imaginable. For some people they are into retro remakes of old
>> Atari and Nintendo games. Others are into remakes of modern FPS and  
>> RPG
>> games they have heard about or tried playing for XBox, Play Station,  
>> and
>> so on. As a result a game developer may wind up specializing in one
>> style or another.
>> I have seen a number of posts saying side-scrollers are boring. I  
>> don't
>> believe it is the side-scroller format itself that is boring, but the
>> game itself. I personally find SL sort of boring, but that is just
>> because the game doesn't apeal to me. I can name several side- 
>> scrollers
>> I really loved because they were challenging like Megaman, Double
>> Dragon, and Castlevania.
>> However, in recent years like my sighted peers I too have been drawn  
>> to
>> the more modern full 3D thing. Games like Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight,  
>> Doom
>> III, and so on have a lot more to offer in terms of game play and  
>> realism.
>> For example, one game I play a lot, or try to, Tomb Raider Angel of
>> Darkness is like playing a part in a movie. There are lots of full
>> motion vidios, cut scenes, between the levels were characters interact
>> and set up the plot for the level you are about to play.
>> For example, the first two cut scenes in Angel of Darkness sets up the
>> plot for the game where the monstroms murder Von Croy and then frame
>> Lara Croft for the murder. It then shifts to Lara's escape from Von
>> Croy's apartment, and ends with her standing in a back alley of Paris.
>> Open level 1 where you, as Lara, must escape from the police, and get
>> into a near by apartment building.
>> Unless you have played these newer 3D style games complete with full
>> motion vidio etc you will never know how much game technology has
>> changed since the 1982 game of Pitfall or the 1984 game of Montezuma's
>> Revenge. Personally, new games blow them away in every sense of the  
>> word
>> imaginable.
>>
>>
>> Charles Wrote:
>>> As to why some people want to move ahead to the 3D games and some  
>>> people
>>> want side scrollers, the answer is very simple.  Let me ask you, do  
>>> you want
>>> only 1 type of game?, or would you be willing to have different  
>>> types of
>>> games on your P

Re: [Audyssey] What's Ahead For MOTA Beta 2.

2008-03-24 Thread Charles Rivard
Nobody was complaining that he was trying something new.  The complaint was 
that he was going to replace what was ordered with something totally 
different.

---
Laughter is the best medicine.  Look around you and find a dose.
- Original Message - 
From: "Tj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] What's Ahead For MOTA Beta 2.


> Personally I think the ew Mota sounds cooler than the old Monty game. 
> But,
> hey.  I'm just a lonley college student who probaly doesn't matter!
> *grins*.  Seriously, guys, let him do what he, as a developer wants, and
> don't gripe about it.  Now I see why we don't have many good games.  No
> offense to the other developers.  But whenevr someone decides to do
> somethign new, everyone complains.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] My responce to Michael Feir.

2008-03-24 Thread Charles Rivard
I totally agree except for one thing.  I'd rather be a ham than a turkey. 
(grin)

---
Laughter is the best medicine.  Look around you and find a dose.
- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Feir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] My responce to Michael Feir.


>I can completely understand your not wanting to square off against Utopia
> Technology's lawyers, Tom. Given that opposition, I have no problem with 
> you
> not producing a clone of Monty. It's a big disappointment. Your decision
> regarding that is completely understandable. However, changing gears so
> completely like that was very hard to take. Keeping with the sidescroller
> style of game will at least give people like me the satisfaction of seeing
> at least part of our dreams fulfilled in a new and doubtless bold way. I'm
> pleased that at least we'll finally be getting a good sidescroller out of
> this mess. That is a far more satisfactory compromise to the situation 
> than
> to make an entirely different genre of game. I have every confidence that
> you can produce a stellar sidescroller. Now that it's going to be 
> completely
> your creation, I look forward to a game with your heart and soul in it. 
> Take
> as long as you need to in order to make this game count. Now, I feel that 
> we
> will indeed be getting a better game than what we paid for. You don't have
> to worry about me hounding you about timeliness or anything like that.
> You're honouring what you set out to do in the best manner possible given
> the circumstances. I can completely accept and support that. If there's
> anything I can do to bolster your efforts, I will if I can. Tom, you've 
> come
> a long way in a very short time. I've been through similar episodes in 
> life
> both as editor of Audyssey and in other capacities. You should take some
> time to reflect and sort yourself out before plunging in. Try to relax and
> enjoy the rest of this weekend.
>
> Lets everyone do some cooling off after that little roasting. We're 
> supposed
> to be eating turkies not being them. People can take that "you are what 
> you
> eat" stuff a little too far sometimes. Happy Easter, everyone.
> Michael Feir
> Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine
> 1996-2004
> Check out my blog at:
> http://www.blindspots.net/blog.php?user=13
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:59 PM
> Subject: [Audyssey] My responce to Michael Feir.
>
>
>> Hi Michael,
>> I have read your email and find myself for the most part agreeing with
>> you about work ethics, sticking things through to the end, and trying to
>> follow through with promises made. It was both my promises as well as
>> the fact I took pre-orders in December why I have changed my mind and
>> have decided to begin work on a new side-scroller with a treasure
>> hunting and archeology type theme to replace Montezuma's Revenge.
>> In your email it is quite clear you are disappointed about the fact
>> Montezuma's Revenge was canceled. I also recognize your desire to have a
>> side-scroller as close to the original Montezuma's Revenge idea as
>> possible. how ever, as you know I was recently asked to take the
>> Montezuma's Return game down do to copyright issues and to cease and
>> desist from producing that type of game. Rather than argue with the
>> copyright holder's demands I agreed to meet all of their terms. If it
>> hadn't been for that major set back the game would probably be nearly
>> finished by now.
>> I certainly can not promise you a Montezuma's Revenge game, but perhaps
>> I can create a side-scroller of equal value that will be satisfactory to
>> you and others that were so hoping for Montezuma's Revenge/Montezuma's
>> Return. About the best I can do is try and deliver another high quality
>> side-scroller with action, adventure, and of course treasure hunting. I
>> honestly don't know if you will like it or not, but all I can do is try.
>> One of the ideas I am considering for the new side-scroller is changing
>> the location of the game to ancient Egypt. One of the reasons for the
>> change to Egypt is I have always liked he Egyptian type enemies like
>> bats, mummies, snakes, scorpions, crocodiles, etc that are popular in
>> games about Egypt. The gods and goddesses of Egypt make very cool
>> enemies or bosses.
>> Another very good reason to think about Egypt is in more contemporary
>> times archeologist's have discovered the Egyptian jewelers had access to
>> some kind of low voltage electric power in order to create electroplated
>> jewelry. Like the Babylonians the ancient Egyptians may have used dry
>> cell type badderies filled with fruit juices and a copper rod to produce
>> electric current. The reason this is important is in the Montezuma's
>> Revenge games there are electric fields that would have been beyond the
>> Aztec's

Re: [Audyssey] Side-scrollers was MOTA Beta 2.

2008-03-24 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Bryan,
Yes, I also loved he original Castlevania theme music. The first level 
music really put in the mood of monster hunting. The Dracula theme song 
was also pretty cool.
When it comes down to it the original NES games usually did have good 
music. Mario Brothers, Castlevania, Double Dragon, Megaman, TMNT, you 
name it were cool just to listen to.

Bryan Peterson wrote:
> Ah yes, Castlevania. The music was rockin', too. My favorite was the theme 
> in level 1.
> Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Happy Easter

2008-03-24 Thread Yohandy
I'd like to let everyone know I'm enjoying 3 pounds of chocolate. impressive 
eh? haha. and Andy, if you like jelly beans I have some nice burty bots 
I'm willing to offer you. I have quite the assortment  of flavors here. lol


- Original Message - 
From: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Happy Easter


> Lol, I ate so many candy chocolate eggs, bunnies (even jelly
> beans)! I'm ready expplode.  Oh wait that already happened...
>
>
>
>
>
>> - Original Message -
>>From: "Jim Kitchen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: "Audyssey" >Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 05:46:41 -0500
>>Subject: [Audyssey] Happy Easter
>
>>Hi,
>
>>Just writing to wish everyone a very Happy Easter.
>
>>BFN
>> Jim
>
>>Go ahead and put all your eggs in one basket.
>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>http://www.kitchensinc.net
>>(440) 286-6920
>>Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] thanks a lot.

2008-03-24 Thread shaun everiss
well we will see them just it will take ages probably.
At 09:25 p.m. 22/03/2008, you wrote:
>hi all thanks to the bad apples we are not going to see thomas's free d 
>starwars game and stuff like that so  all i am going to say is thanks a lot to 
>all of you out their who are more concerned about having your type of game 
>that you wanted rather than see the changed copy. you would not have been 
>loosing out on your money as your key would have been still active so you 
>would have been getting a better game with out paying any more money out., 
>
>so all i can say is thanks a lot 
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Re: [Audyssey] my thoughts on mota

2008-03-24 Thread shaun everiss
I should say on the copywrite thing, we all knew this would happen.
We really don't have much of a place in the sighted market not that we attempt 
to try, we are just to small.
People will tell us to stop but not to join us.
We really only have a voice on audiogames.net, its not like we will be going 
anywhere fast.
but we can at least try to keep moving.
At 02:45 a.m. 24/03/2008, you wrote:
>yep, and even though he was told to stop by violation of copyright. 
>those that prepaid still wine to see the game. A game that he 
>personally came out and said he couldn't make for copyright issues.
>i don't disagree with Tom at all. When it comes to legal aspects you 
>respect them more then those wining for something they can't have.
>
>At 02:05 PM 3/22/2008, you wrote:
>>Actually, the fact that we won't be able to preorder is not all that sad.  I
>>just means that the company won't be pressured by some gamers who have their
>>own deadlines they expect the company to meet.  James North set his own
>>deadlines, announced them and said that they were expected deadlines, then
>>ran into problems with the games and missed those expected deadlines.
>>Gamers got furious with the delays and griped.  He retaliated heatedly, and
>>finally got fed up with it, sold his finished games to Adora Entertainment,
>>sold his unfinished ones to Thomas Ward, and left.  Thomas got stuck with
>>the preorders and is now running into sort of the same thing.  The time he
>>has taken isn't the issue.  The type of game ordered versus the type of game
>>he now wants to produce in place of what was bought by gamers is the issue.
>>Fortunately for us, he has the willingness to produce some sort of game for
>>those who bought it before he got it, and then do more of what he really
>>wants to do with his time.  I hope Raceway will be what he envisioned it to
>>be when it comes out.
>>
>>---
>>Laughter is the best medicine.  Look around you and find a dose.
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Willem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>>Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:29 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my thoughts on mota
>>
>>
>> > It is sad that it came to this, but Thomas you have a point.
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>> > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:48 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my thoughts on mota
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi Shaun and all,
>> >> You can forget about ever getting pre-orders. It is because of
>> >> pre-orders I am in the mess I am in today. Michael is right that
>> >> pre-ordering has been delt a faytal blow because of this. If I myself
>> >> hadn't taken a pre-order for the game I could have went 3D and no one
>> >> would have a right to complain.
>> >> From now on USA Games is playing it strait. I will hand pick a handful
>> >> of reliable beta testers I know and like, who do good work, and they
>> >> will be officially added to a private group of inside testers. When the
>> >> game is at 1.0 status that is when the public will be able to purchase
>> >> and play. You've all lost the right to pre-order and play over this.
>> >>
>> >> shaun everiss wrote:
>> >>> so do I, I will buy it no matter what.
>> >>> Heck I may even preorder for the test phase.
>> >>> There I have said it.
>> >>> I am willing to put my money where my mouth is  so who is with me.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
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>
>Tim
>trouble
>"Never offend people with style when you can of

Re: [Audyssey] Side-scrollers was MOTA Beta 2.

2008-03-24 Thread Willem
No, you are not.
it could be implimented, but in monti, random placement just wasn't 
implimented to make the game nearer to the origional.
- Original Message - 
From: "will lomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Side-scrollers was MOTA Beta 2.


> but randomness can't be implemented in these games, am i right?
> so that means that once the snake is in level 2 after taking four
> steps, he'll always be there, so what's the point
>


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Re: [Audyssey] Torrent is coming along greatly, according to the site!

2008-03-24 Thread will lomas
the site doesn't exist now so dont know where you got the site to work


On 24 Mar 2008, at 00:23, Andy wrote:

> Hi I was pretty bored, and wanted to see what games were
> available and then remembered Torrent!
> The site has 2 soundbytes available.  The Mac version is almost
> done, the Linux  I think is nearing completion and the Windows
> apparently has not been started yet since it says, "development
> will begin" or something like that so...
>
> Want the site? surrealhorizons.com
> Hope this is of some interest!
>
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Re: [Audyssey] audioquake question

2008-03-24 Thread shaun everiss
thats the thing.
I type connect and the server name.
Usually I then get connecting to servername, then connected.
I don't get that at all.
windows firewall never told me like it did when I got the other bits loaded 
first install.
I just tried turning it off and still nothing so it aint the firewall.
I never get the connecting status  message.

At 02:18 p.m. 23/03/2008, you wrote:
>   Have you tried other servers?  what did you get back?…
>
>Smiles,
>
>Cara  :)
>
>
>On Mar 21, 2008, at 10:00 PM, shaun everiss wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>> Umis it just me or does the new aq not allow you to connect to a  
>> server anymore.
>> i was trying to get on tbrn.net.
>> and its not working.
>> I can only play local.
>>
>>
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>---
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>http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] What's Ahead For MOTA Beta 2.

2008-03-24 Thread Michael Feir
There are quite a number of differences in that situation to what we just 
experienced here. First of all, I said at the very start of my attempt to 
make a game that it was just that. A sincere attempt to see if I could do 
something I've always dreamed of doing. I had never programmed anything 
before and didn't ever promise that I would finish it. It wasn't somebody 
else's project that I rescued. It was my own idea from start to finish. 
Through my development diary which you can read in quite a few issues of the 
magazine, I let people follow some of what I was going through. Also, I 
didn't take any pre-orders or even start to think about the business aspect 
of what I was doing. I wanted to make certain that I had a finished product 
that I was absolutely happy with before I even started putting all that 
together. I didn't want anybody to be out any money or feel unfairly treated 
except me if I faild. Editing the magazine gave me a very strong sense of 
the community I was trying to develop a game for and how not being able to 
keep solid commitments made in haste can get you into real trouble real 
fast. Many of our members are either young or have lived somewhat sheltered 
lives for other reasons. They simply can't get a sense of how truly hard it 
is to do what Tom and I have tried to do. I've been to university, managed 
my own apartment, maintained good relations with friends and family and have 
had a very limited amount of work experience. That five months of employment 
is more of a career than many members of the community will ever have. It's 
not their fault either. People are just on the whole less inclined to give 
us a chance. Without experience that nobody wants to give you, it's hard to 
get your foot in no matter how many hoops you jump through. Fully 
able-bodied High school dropouts frankly have a better chance. Given that, 
we have a lot of people with plenty of time on their hands who just don't 
have a good grasp of what reality is like for the developers. They aren't 
trying to be unreasonable either. They truly can't make the leap of empathy 
required. Given this, developers have to be educators as well and take care 
how they approach the whole issue of firm deadlines and such. You really 
have to have a passion for this kind of thing and have people in your life 
who understand and support that passion. It's very hard to justify the 
amount of time you put into developing a game for a community which simply 
doesn't operate on the same economic level as the mainstream games market. 
Nobody will ever make a million developing accessible games and I have yet 
to hear about anybody even making enough to truly live off their earnings. 
Editing the mag gave me quite a lot of insite in how one ought to deal with 
the public communications side of things. Be very careful about the 
commitments you make. People will, quite reasonably, hold you to them. Leave 
yourself some wiggle room unless you're extremely certain of what you can do 
and are willing to stick it out to the end if things don't go as planned. 
What I found out very painfully was that I simply don't have the mind for 
programming. Look through issues of the magazine and you'll come across 
Sparkle and Space Miners. I believe I've shown here that I have a good grasp 
of what makes a good game. I just couldn't explain all that to a computer. 
It still felt very bad turning away from that but at least I had acted in 
good faith and without unduely raising peoples' hopes.

Out of a desire to do good in the community, Tom commited to completing 
somebody else's dream. I believe his style of approach was the most open 
we've seen to date. He released beta versions to the public so that everyone 
could literally experience progress being made. That is an incredibly 
jenerous approach. However, as time wore on, Tom's natural desire to put his 
own stamp on things came to the surfice and he became less satisfied with 
completing what he had taken on. He therefore tried to change the game 
entirely well before there was any real good reason to other than his own 
inclinations to do that. This last time wasn't the first time that had 
happened. However, this time, he had an actual impassable obstacle to doing 
what he said. There isn't enough money in the whole community to support the 
legal funds he'd need to take his case to court even though I strongly 
suspect he could have won such a contest. One person simply cannot take on a 
corporation and games just aren't the kinds of things to get organisations 
behind you like suing a corporation for damages or other more serious things 
might. Tom then decided to completely and utterly change what he would 
deliver. It would be a game completely different than what was initially 
promised. We wouldn't even get the kind of game we had waited years for and 
paidd for. Comparing that to what I've tried to do is just not reasonable.

Once Tom has done this sidescroller, I believe h

[Audyssey] blind people and punctuation was Re: thanks a lot.

2008-03-24 Thread Yohandy
Gees what's with blind people having this serious obsession with 
punctuation? Yeah I try using correct punctuation, but I don't criticize 
those that don't. fact is people don't really care. all they'll do is use 
even worse punctuation just to annoy you. So please guys do us all a favor 
and drop it already ok? You're just generating unnecessary 
traffic. You say you're mature, so prove it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Sarah Haake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] thanks a lot.


> Hi Ian,
>
> I would suggest you take a deep breath, calm down and learn to write
> with punctuation before you send your next message. It is quite possible
> that it will be readable after all.
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Sarah
> --
> "Amicus certus in re incerta cernitur."
> (Einen sicheren Freund erkennt man in unsicherer Sache.)
> Cicero
> - Original Message - 
> From: "ian mcnamara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:25 AM
> Subject: [Audyssey] thanks a lot.
>
>
>> hi all thanks to the bad apples we are not going to see thomas's free
>> d starwars game and stuff like that so  all i am going to say is
>> thanks a lot to all of you out their who are more concerned about
>> having your type of game that you wanted rather than see the changed
>> copy. you would not have been loosing out on your money as your key
>> would have been still active so you would have been getting a better
>> game with out paying any more money out.,
>>
>> so all i can say is thanks a lot
>> ---
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>
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Re: [Audyssey] Creating simple games in autoit

2008-03-24 Thread Ryan Smith
Hello,
Well first off, you won't be creating super advanced games in autoit.
There's no DirectInput or XNA or any fansy game framework (if that's
what there called). Your stuck with ComAudio. My autoit is not good,
and I sure could use alot of improvement. Theirs a quick tutorial on
playing sounds in my dev center. www.rsgames.co.nr/devcenter.html .
Autoits a pretty easy language to learn..or so I've heard

-Ryan

On 3/22/08, Jose Lomeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello; Listers, I want to create a simple audio game in autoit. But I need
> help. First I am new at this. Second I really don't know how. Can someone
> teach me? Please write back.
> Jose Lomeli
> Email:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System:
> Microsoft Windows XP
> Home Edition
> Version 2002
> Service Pack 2
> Manufactured and supported by: Dell Latitude D630
> Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU
>  T7100  @ 1.80GHz
> 1.79 GHz, 0.99 GB of RAM
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Re: [Audyssey] RS Games Contest/Side Scroller!

2008-03-24 Thread shaun everiss
are the blocks anything like tetris or the brick games I have seen around here?
Also let me know if and when you are going to be asking for testers.
I'd dearly like to be turned loose on a 3 teered monster like this one.
At 02:30 a.m. 24/03/2008, you wrote:
>I would like to congratulate Claudio Zeni for being our contest winner
>this month. He will be receiving an SDM Value Changer, he can change
>any variable to what he wants, when Beta 4 is released. Good Job to
>everyone who participated.
>And importantly, I have finally figured out a way I think will be ok
>for SDM's mini side scroller. I have just started it, and am half-way
>done level 1. I am very puzzled though, KeyCode was so unresponsive
>(wasn't working half the time), that I took the extra minutes or so to
>switch to DirectX8 Input, and now it's great. One major improvement
>from the original source, is the guards are shooting, and when you
>jump, there are boxes you hit, which power up's come out of. Also, I
>have changed it to be a bit more realistic. So you need to go past the
>bomb, and just ignore it. If your quick enough, it won't kill you.
>Also, they aren't traditional steps. Their blocks. You need to do a
>power jump (not sure what keyboard commands I'd be using) and go past
>it. Your limited to 1 power jump per level. I feel this will be more
>realistic. Possibly, their might be a small, very small 3D style place
>where you need to find the boss before the time runs out. (Not sure if
>I should give sound clues to where he is? Bit more of a challenge,
>especially if I make it random!)
>
>-Ryan
>
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[Audyssey] suggestion regarding the direction of USA games

2008-03-24 Thread will lomas
hi all


While all this discussion has been raging, regarding thomases decision  
to make a new side scroller to replace monty, why has no one ever  
thought of raceway?
Although it is true to say thomas has seen no money from this, we ahve  
most of us, paid for this game damn near six years ago!
As thomas is getting upset via side scrollers, and feels his heart is  
not in it, he is only producing this new game, which he'd have to code  
from scratch after research, fore a handful of individuals
why not therefore, work on raceway, get a beta out and then go back to  
the sidescroller?
will



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Re: [Audyssey] Pre-ordering was MOTA.

2008-03-24 Thread shaun everiss
you could always do what liam does I think he still does, he did with judgement 
day.
And started pree ordering a week before release.
At 12:05 p.m. 24/03/2008, you wrote:
>Hi Charles,
>I think as a community we all have learned a lesson about pre-ordering. 
>Even for the most well intentioned developer pre-ordering is for all 
>intents and purposes pretty darn difficult to manage. Once you begin 
>taking orders you will then be expected to complete the game in some 
>sort of timely manner. In addition to the time factor if you are selling 
>a game with one kind of story, genre, style of game play, and later 
>change your mind you are sort of stuck. You advertised one thing and 
>decide you aren't happy with it you have x number of people expecting 
>one game while yourself now wants to move in a different direction with 
>it. I find myself bound to my pre-orders and I have to own up to the 
>fact I took about 150 orders over the holidays and have no choice but to 
>follow through with the side-scroller project.
>In the future if I don't use pre-ordering and only announce working 
>demos and betas offered as free downloads and decide to go somewhere 
>different I am not obligated to the community to stick to the games 
>original plans. I will have free license to modify, fix, change, 
>anything I like.
>
>
>
>Charles Rivard wrote:
>> Actually, the fact that we won't be able to preorder is not all that sad.  I 
>> just means that the company won't be pressured by some gamers who have their 
>> own deadlines they expect the company to meet.  James North set his own 
>> deadlines, announced them and said that they were expected deadlines, then 
>> ran into problems with the games and missed those expected deadlines. 
>> Gamers got furious with the delays and griped.  He retaliated heatedly, and 
>> finally got fed up with it, sold his finished games to Adora Entertainment, 
>> sold his unfinished ones to Thomas Ward, and left.  Thomas got stuck with 
>> the preorders and is now running into sort of the same thing.  The time he 
>> has taken isn't the issue.  The type of game ordered versus the type of game 
>> he now wants to produce in place of what was bought by gamers is the issue. 
>> Fortunately for us, he has the willingness to produce some sort of game for 
>> those who bought it before he got it, and then do more of what he really 
>> wants to do with his time.  I hope Raceway will be what he envisioned it to 
>> be when it comes out.
>>   
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] RS Games Contest/Side Scroller!

2008-03-24 Thread Claudio
Hello Ryan!
Thanks in advance!
This is my first contest where I have won!
Many thanks!
I'm very happy to reat that!
Best regards, Claudio.

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Re: [Audyssey] Happy Easter

2008-03-24 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
:Lol! Yeah, too many chocklet bunnies has a way of doing that to you. I 
helped my son eat his and now I have had a few after explosions which 
even flushing it down the drain and spraying air freshener can't quite 
clear the smell. 


Andy wrote:
> Lol, I ate so many candy chocolate eggs, bunnies (even jelly 
> beans)! I'm ready expplode.  Oh wait that already happened...
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Pre-ordering was MOTA.

2008-03-24 Thread ian mcnamara
my vew is do the way chee did it with rail racer. instead of having bater 
testers that are selected sell the game when it is in bater so that every 
one gets to help in every stage just like chee did with rail racer as i 
think that it is the better way to go
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Charles Rivard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gamers Discussion list" 

Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:05 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] Pre-ordering was MOTA.


> Hi Charles,
> I think as a community we all have learned a lesson about pre-ordering.
> Even for the most well intentioned developer pre-ordering is for all
> intents and purposes pretty darn difficult to manage. Once you begin
> taking orders you will then be expected to complete the game in some
> sort of timely manner. In addition to the time factor if you are selling
> a game with one kind of story, genre, style of game play, and later
> change your mind you are sort of stuck. You advertised one thing and
> decide you aren't happy with it you have x number of people expecting
> one game while yourself now wants to move in a different direction with
> it. I find myself bound to my pre-orders and I have to own up to the
> fact I took about 150 orders over the holidays and have no choice but to
> follow through with the side-scroller project.
> In the future if I don't use pre-ordering and only announce working
> demos and betas offered as free downloads and decide to go somewhere
> different I am not obligated to the community to stick to the games
> original plans. I will have free license to modify, fix, change,
> anything I like.
>
>
>
> Charles Rivard wrote:
>> Actually, the fact that we won't be able to preorder is not all that sad. 
>> I
>> just means that the company won't be pressured by some gamers who have 
>> their
>> own deadlines they expect the company to meet.  James North set his own
>> deadlines, announced them and said that they were expected deadlines, 
>> then
>> ran into problems with the games and missed those expected deadlines.
>> Gamers got furious with the delays and griped.  He retaliated heatedly, 
>> and
>> finally got fed up with it, sold his finished games to Adora 
>> Entertainment,
>> sold his unfinished ones to Thomas Ward, and left.  Thomas got stuck with
>> the preorders and is now running into sort of the same thing.  The time 
>> he
>> has taken isn't the issue.  The type of game ordered versus the type of 
>> game
>> he now wants to produce in place of what was bought by gamers is the 
>> issue.
>> Fortunately for us, he has the willingness to produce some sort of game 
>> for
>> those who bought it before he got it, and then do more of what he really
>> wants to do with his time.  I hope Raceway will be what he envisioned it 
>> to
>> be when it comes out.
>>
>
>
> ---
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>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1339 - Release Date: 
> 22/03/2008 16:43
> 



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[Audyssey] new version of judgemtn day

2008-03-24 Thread Liam Erven
Hi.  

I'm working on creating a patch for judgment day to address a few long standing 
issues.  Is there any suggestions or ideas anyone has?  Try and avoid new 
feature requests like more levels or new kinds of weapons.  I want to tweak the 
game and squish any bugs or fix things that don't work right.  If there's small 
improvements I can make like navigation keys, and other misc features, let me 
know.  this is the kind of stuff I want to work on.
Sapi speech was one of my ideas.  are people opposed to this?  it would make my 
life easier inthe long run.

Liam
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Re: [Audyssey] Side-scrollers was MOTA Beta 2.

2008-03-24 Thread will lomas
but randomness can't be implemented in these games, am i right?
so that means that once the snake is in level 2 after taking four  
steps, he'll always be there, so what's the point

On 23 Mar 2008, at 23:28, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Hi Bryan,
> I couldn't agree with you more. For Will or anyone to play one or two
> side-scrollers and say all side-scrollers are boring just only proves
> that the person hasn't had much exposure to them. The truth is some
> side-scrollers were very difficult and fun in the 1980's.
> One of my favorites, Double Dragon, was pretty much your average walk
> along beat-m-up, but it was fun. It was especially fun if you were  
> just
> in a peed off mood. Grab a bat from one of the thugs and beat him
> unconscious. If you were attacked by a bunch of enemies you could whip
> them with a series of well placed punches, kicks, and jumps. It was
> really fun when you knocked them off of platforms, bridges, or off
> cliffs. Enemy falls to his doom. Good bye mother huncher.
> In terms of side-scrollers like Castlevania they were unmatched in
> replay value. The battle with Dracula was worth every cent of the  
> game.
> The way he would die and then come back to life in another  form was
> cool. Dracula was also tough to beat because you would hit him with a
> weapon, he'd vanish, and reappear somewhere else ready to vamp your  
> rear
> end. The fire balls he would hurl your way were pretty nasty.
> The other thing I liked about the original Castlevania is there were  
> all
> kinds of different monsters from skeletons, knights, dragons, mummies,
> etc. Each gave their own unique combat style and baddy toughness to  
> the
> game. I hated taking on the mummies just because they wouldn't die  
> with
> just any weapon. You needed holy water to get rid of them. If you  
> used a
> leather whip or a throwing dagger you were dead meat. When you were
> attacked by 3 to 5 of the mummies at once you were toast.Although, I  
> do
> remember there was this one area you could jump onto above the  
> mummies,
> they couldn't climb up after you, and if you had the holy water you
> could dump it on them, and say by by to the creeps.
>
>
>
>
> Bryan Peterson wrote:
>> That's not the point. The point is that you can't just play Monte  
>> and then
>> say all side scrollers are too easy. And it's Castlevania, not Castle
>> Whatchamacallit.
>> Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.
>>
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Pre-ordering was MOTA.

2008-03-24 Thread will lomas
thomas


how about this


if people want to help test the game, do what chea does, it makes  
common sense
open up the project when ready for testing and say right then. if you  
pay for the game now, you get to tryall the betas, if you haven't paid  
tough you ahve to wait for the full version and pay for it that way.  
at least you know then you have the willing people on your team who  
have paid in advance for the game. so yes i'd charge again for the new  
side scroller as it is no longer MOTA

On 23 Mar 2008, at 23:05, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Hi Charles,
> I think as a community we all have learned a lesson about pre- 
> ordering.
> Even for the most well intentioned developer pre-ordering is for all
> intents and purposes pretty darn difficult to manage. Once you begin
> taking orders you will then be expected to complete the game in some
> sort of timely manner. In addition to the time factor if you are  
> selling
> a game with one kind of story, genre, style of game play, and later
> change your mind you are sort of stuck. You advertised one thing and
> decide you aren't happy with it you have x number of people expecting
> one game while yourself now wants to move in a different direction  
> with
> it. I find myself bound to my pre-orders and I have to own up to the
> fact I took about 150 orders over the holidays and have no choice  
> but to
> follow through with the side-scroller project.
> In the future if I don't use pre-ordering and only announce working
> demos and betas offered as free downloads and decide to go somewhere
> different I am not obligated to the community to stick to the games
> original plans. I will have free license to modify, fix, change,
> anything I like.
>
>
>
> Charles Rivard wrote:
>> Actually, the fact that we won't be able to preorder is not all  
>> that sad.  I
>> just means that the company won't be pressured by some gamers who  
>> have their
>> own deadlines they expect the company to meet.  James North set his  
>> own
>> deadlines, announced them and said that they were expected  
>> deadlines, then
>> ran into problems with the games and missed those expected deadlines.
>> Gamers got furious with the delays and griped.  He retaliated  
>> heatedly, and
>> finally got fed up with it, sold his finished games to Adora  
>> Entertainment,
>> sold his unfinished ones to Thomas Ward, and left.  Thomas got  
>> stuck with
>> the preorders and is now running into sort of the same thing.  The  
>> time he
>> has taken isn't the issue.  The type of game ordered versus the  
>> type of game
>> he now wants to produce in place of what was bought by gamers is  
>> the issue.
>> Fortunately for us, he has the willingness to produce some sort of  
>> game for
>> those who bought it before he got it, and then do more of what he  
>> really
>> wants to do with his time.  I hope Raceway will be what he  
>> envisioned it to
>> be when it comes out.
>>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Audyssey] Creating simple games in autoit

2008-03-24 Thread Ryan Smith
There's an example script of a memory game at:
http://www.autoitscript.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=66435&hl=game

Not sure what else I can dotheirs not an easy way to explain to
program..perhaps other autoit coders who are better than me (autoit's
probably my worst language)

-Ryan

On 3/23/08, Ryan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
> Well first off, you won't be creating super advanced games in autoit.
> There's no DirectInput or XNA or any fansy game framework (if that's
> what there called). Your stuck with ComAudio. My autoit is not good,
> and I sure could use alot of improvement. Theirs a quick tutorial on
> playing sounds in my dev center. www.rsgames.co.nr/devcenter.html .
> Autoits a pretty easy language to learn..or so I've heard
>
> -Ryan
>
> On 3/22/08, Jose Lomeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello; Listers, I want to create a simple audio game in autoit. But I need
> > help. First I am new at this. Second I really don't know how. Can someone
> > teach me? Please write back.
> > Jose Lomeli
> > Email:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > System:
> > Microsoft Windows XP
> > Home Edition
> > Version 2002
> > Service Pack 2
> > Manufactured and supported by: Dell Latitude D630
> > Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU
> >  T7100  @ 1.80GHz
> > 1.79 GHz, 0.99 GB of RAM
> > ---
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> list,
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> >
>

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Re: [Audyssey] sidescrollers and third games

2008-03-24 Thread Ryan Smith
I don't think side scrollers are boring at all. What I'm trying to do
in SDM is put a side-scroller, not really easy, and when your done
with that, a mini 3D hunt to find the boss I definitely agree
there aren't enough developers to provide every type of game on the
market. That's why I constantly encourage people to start programming,
even if it's just Print statements in JustBasic. Randomize it, use
some Input commands, you got a small interactive fiction. Add some
sounds, it's a bit more interesting. I was taking a look at my old
idea/rsg notes from some time ago, looking at the complex ideas I had
in mind. Is anyone still up for the Sims?  It's technically a 3D
Game/Strategy. (In Air, On Ground, Forward, Backwords, Left, Right)
(They give a list of things for you to do.)

-Ryan

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[Audyssey] Torrent is coming along greatly, according to the site!

2008-03-24 Thread Andy
Hi I was pretty bored, and wanted to see what games were 
available and then remembered Torrent!
The site has 2 soundbytes available.  The Mac version is almost 
done, the Linux  I think is nearing completion and the Windows 
apparently has not been started yet since it says, "development 
will begin" or something like that so...

Want the site? surrealhorizons.com
Hope this is of some interest!

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