[Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knows where we stand legally on redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
One comment on the different spellings on both sides of the Atlantic - as the creator of the dictionary for all the 7-128 word games, I have tried to include both spellings as correct. If you find words that are not included - let me know and I'll make sure they are in there. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Thomas, I'm no lawyer, but as far as I understand these things, you are essentially correct. Daisy is one possible format, as is .brf braille. Depending on the method you use to convert these books to Daisy, users can open the .xml file in something like Internet Explorer and read its contents. THis is what Bookshare used to advise. It might be necessary to change its extension to .html first, but you'll still get essentially the same information. I'm also wondering just how inaccessible Daisy would actually be for many people? THere are free programs to read it on both Windows and Mac, not sure about linux. Also, many people have assistive tech which could do this as well. Hope this helps a bit, Zack. On Jun 14, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering if anyone knows where we stand legally on > redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. > The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the > Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text > or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like > to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I > stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them > converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally > redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US > so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned > copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the > purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who > might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game > going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. > So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them > on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute > them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy > and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel > is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? > > Thanks. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Thomas, My understanding is that you can't distribute them at all in the US, regardless of form. I believe that the courts have defined a right to "format shift" - so you can scan them and put them into an accessible form for yourself - but format shifting does not allow distribution. If you host these publicly, in any form, without the proper authorization and/or licensing, you're violating copyright. The odds of actually getting in trouble for it are probably pretty low, but definitely nonzero. Of course it doesn't make sense; but in the world of copyright, what makes sense doesn't matter. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering if anyone knows where we stand legally on > redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. > The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the > Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text > or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like > to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I > stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them > converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally > redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US > so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned > copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the > purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who > might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game > going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. > So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them > on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute > them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy > and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel > is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? > > Thanks. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hmm. If the PDF's are inaccessible, you might want to check with www.drivethrurpg.com I know they sell PDFs; they might be interested in selling other formats, especially if you're doing all the converting and editing. It may turn out to be a dead end but I think it's worth checking. Christina -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:25 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knows where we stand legally on redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
If you've ever downloaded and studied a bookshare daisy book, you'll notice that some of them are essentially html files. By this I mean that you can read the book in internet explorer. As far as bookshare goes, you can also get a brf file version, which is braille only. I'm not sure how legal distributing them would be in any circumstance though, as I believe bookshare has their own deal that they make with the publishers (or something like that) which allows them to distribute the books. This isn't really answering your question, but might clarify a bit of what your asking. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. personally I'm of the opinion that after 20 years of trying to get accessible rp books, fantasy literature etc and being repeatedly stone walled on the issue, copywrite can kiss my rear end! In around the year 2000 I bought a cd which contained word documents of all the old D&D 2nd edition books in order to start tabletop rping, however of course once I started i found that 3rd edition had replaced 2nd. I then wrote a letter to wizards of the coast asking if they sold any accessible versions of the D&D 3rd ed books, explaining that I was a blind person and so couldn't read their printed copies. Their entire response was as follows: "Dear Mr. Hewitt. We have no plans at this time or in the future of producing electronic copies of our works. Thank you for your interest. yours sincerely etc etc" Well, thanks a Heap! I therefore had to muddle along somewhat cadging rules from the Gm, which wasn't too much fun. Luckily, drivethru rpg now sell a lot of books in pdf form which mostly convert to text, so I have several source books for games. If however they aren't available there or in any other accessible form, my feeling these days is that I have no respect for a law which does nothing but promote corporate interest and money grabbing stupidity over any sort of fair access. So, myself I suggest you just stick them on the site anyway. You could protect your back slightly by having them available only on request when someone mails you (perhaps have a page about the group and a mail for more information type of link where you send the books), or having a specific access related password to the archive which you send out by mail on request, thus insuring that not just anybody can come along and grab them. However if they aren't as equally available to visually impared people as anyone else, then you have every right to redistribute them. I would however suggest you check drivethrurpg first, just in case they are! available as pdfs. All the best, DArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Zack, As far as I know there are no official daisy readers out there for Linux, but Bookshare has a tool Linux users can download to convert them to html or text. So its really simply a case of running it through the Daisy to html convertion program and then opening it in Firefox or Epiphany, and then reading it via Orca. However, converting it to Daisy format would be a fairly tedious process because as I understand it Daisy is basically a variation of xml docbook which would require tagging hundreds of pages by hand unless there is some text to Daisy conversion tool out there I don't know about. However, as for Daisy accessibility the reason I say text is more accessible is because it doesn't require any special accessibility software to read. a person can open it up in Notepad, Gedit, or any other standard text editor and read it. With Daisy they have to use their Daisy player, or have to convert it from Daisy back to html or text which is a hassle when I could have provided the books in that format to begin with. Cheers! On 6/14/12, Zachary Kline wrote: > Hi Thomas, > I'm no lawyer, but as far as I understand these things, you are essentially > correct. Daisy is one possible format, as is .brf braille. Depending on the > method you use to convert these books to Daisy, users can open the .xml file > in something like Internet Explorer and read its contents. THis is what > Bookshare used to advise. It might be necessary to change its extension to > .html first, but you'll still get essentially the same information. > I'm also wondering just how inaccessible Daisy would actually be for many > people? THere are free programs to read it on both Windows and Mac, not sure > about linux. Also, many people have assistive tech which could do this as > well. > Hope this helps a bit, > Zack. > On Jun 14, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I was wondering if anyone knows where we stand legally on >> redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. >> The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the >> Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text >> or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like >> to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I >> stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them >> converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally >> redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US >> so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned >> copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the >> purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who >> might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game >> going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. >> So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them >> on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute >> them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy >> and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel >> is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? >> >> Thanks. >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
I was just wondering which star wars rules you were talking about. The old west end games or the d20 star wars. Just out of curiosity and not much else. I knowt he west end books are no longer in print so I am not sure if that matters or not. al "The truth will set you free" Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:25 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knows where we stand legally on redistributing roll playing game source books in accessible format. The reason I ask is because I have a number of source books for the Star Wars roll playing game I'm in the process of converting to text or html. Once I'm done scanning and editing the source books I'd like to redistribute them to other blind gamers, but am not clear where I stand legally. I could submit them to Bookshare.org to have them converted to Daisy format, which would be one way of legally redistributing them, but most of the gamers here live outside the US so don't qualify for Bookshare. Therefore while submitting the scanned copies to Bookshare would be the legal thing to do it defeats the purpose of trying to redistribute them to other blind gamers here who might wish to join me in getting a weekly Star Wars roll playing game going similar to what Phil and others do with Dungeons and Dragons. So what i've been thinking of doing is zipping them and hosting them on the USA Games website, but I believe in order to legally distribute them they have to be in some specific accessibility format like Dasy and can't be in an all purpose format like text or html which I feel is more accessible than Daisy. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
I think I have to agree with you Dark. I think there should be accessible formats for the blind, especially print stuff including rpg books. Bookshare does a good job of it, so I don't see why wotc couldn't do something similar if it is so nervous about electronic format. My two cents I suppose. al "The truth will set you free" Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: dark To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Tom. personally I'm of the opinion that after 20 years of trying to get accessible rp books, fantasy literature etc and being repeatedly stone walled on the issue, copywrite can kiss my rear end! In around the year 2000 I bought a cd which contained word documents of all the old D&D 2nd edition books in order to start tabletop rping, however of course once I started i found that 3rd edition had replaced 2nd. I then wrote a letter to wizards of the coast asking if they sold any accessible versions of the D&D 3rd ed books, explaining that I was a blind person and so couldn't read their printed copies. Their entire response was as follows: "Dear Mr. Hewitt. We have no plans at this time or in the future of producing electronic copies of our works. Thank you for your interest. yours sincerely etc etc" Well, thanks a Heap! I therefore had to muddle along somewhat cadging rules from the Gm, which wasn't too much fun. Luckily, drivethru rpg now sell a lot of books in pdf form which mostly convert to text, so I have several source books for games. If however they aren't available there or in any other accessible form, my feeling these days is that I have no respect for a law which does nothing but promote corporate interest and money grabbing stupidity over any sort of fair access. So, myself I suggest you just stick them on the site anyway. You could protect your back slightly by having them available only on request when someone mails you (perhaps have a page about the group and a mail for more information type of link where you send the books), or having a specific access related password to the archive which you send out by mail on request, thus insuring that not just anybody can come along and grab them. However if they aren't as equally available to visually impared people as anyone else, then you have every right to redistribute them. I would however suggest you check drivethrurpg first, just in case they are! available as pdfs. All the best, DArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi al. Bookshare has the same problem as the library of congress, namely that it is not accessible to those living outside the Us, I remember having to beg, grovel, and finally ring Washington Dc from england to persuade the library of congress to send me books by specific authors that wren't available over here, a long and corporate process which was in no way fun, especially sinse for some odd reason only a limited amount of stuff could be sent overseas. I've mentioned how bad the accesible literature bit in the Uk is on list before so won't go on about it more, but suffice it to say that these days my respect for the laws of copywrite as they apply to literature are pretty much zero, and will continue to be so until it's possible for a visually impared person to obtain unabridged books at the same availability and price as a sighted person pays. In fact, when I've got down to creative writing and if I ever publish a work myself, one of the specifications! will be that the book must ave accessible copies produced for visually impared users at no extra charge. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Allan Thompson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books I think I have to agree with you Dark. I think there should be accessible formats for the blind, especially print stuff including rpg books. Bookshare does a good job of it, so I don't see why wotc couldn't do something similar if it is so nervous about electronic format. My two cents I suppose. al "The truth will set you free" Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: dark To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Tom. personally I'm of the opinion that after 20 years of trying to get accessible rp books, fantasy literature etc and being repeatedly stone walled on the issue, copywrite can kiss my rear end! In around the year 2000 I bought a cd which contained word documents of all the old D&D 2nd edition books in order to start tabletop rping, however of course once I started i found that 3rd edition had replaced 2nd. I then wrote a letter to wizards of the coast asking if they sold any accessible versions of the D&D 3rd ed books, explaining that I was a blind person and so couldn't read their printed copies. Their entire response was as follows: "Dear Mr. Hewitt. We have no plans at this time or in the future of producing electronic copies of our works. Thank you for your interest. yours sincerely etc etc" Well, thanks a Heap! I therefore had to muddle along somewhat cadging rules from the Gm, which wasn't too much fun. Luckily, drivethru rpg now sell a lot of books in pdf form which mostly convert to text, so I have several source books for games. If however they aren't available there or in any other accessible form, my feeling these days is that I have no respect for a law which does nothing but promote corporate interest and money grabbing stupidity over any sort of fair access. So, myself I suggest you just stick them on the site anyway. You could protect your back slightly by having them available only on request when someone mails you (perhaps have a page about the group and a mail for more information type of link where you send the books), or having a specific access related password to the archive which you send out by mail on request, thus insuring that not just anybody can come along and grab them. However if they aren't as equally available to visually impared people as anyone else, then you have every right to redistribute them. I would however suggest you check drivethrurpg first, just in case they are! available as pdfs. All the best, DArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Al, I'm talking about the newer d20 Star Wars source books and campaign guides. As you might already know the d20 campaign books and source guides covers the rebel era, the clone wars era, and the New Jedi Order era. I've even heard they are working on releasing a new expansion set for the Old Republic era of books and games. Since I'd like to work with the latest campaign books I'm not bothering with the old West End stuff. Cheers! On 6/14/12, Allan Thompson wrote: > I was just wondering which star wars rules you were talking about. The old > west end games or the d20 star wars. Just out of curiosity and not much > else. I knowt he west end books are no longer in print so I am not sure if > that matters or not. > > al > > > "The truth will set you free" > Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Such is the joys of international copyright law, and that's precisely why I don't want to go through Bookshare. Sure its legal and I might do it for no other reason than to let Bookshare subscribers have access to the books, but international copyrights being what they are just because its legal to download a source book book in accessible format in the USA it may not be legal to do so in the UK. That's dumb. Why should the CNIB, RNIB, or anyone else for that matter have to reinvent the wheel so to speak. If it is available from Bookshare, the NLS, Learning Alley, whatever why not simply make a copy of it and export it to foreign agencies? No, we can't do that because of copyright law x, y, and z. They have to get the copyrights and make their own recording or electronic copies. That too me is beyond stupidity, and the reason we as blind people always end up getting the screws. I can't condone putting the work into scanning, editing, and making these books accessible to have copyright laws say I can't export it to foreign countries because so and so hasn't purchased the copyrights and they must make their own accessible copies when there is already an accessible copy I just busted my rear off to give them. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Hi al. > > Bookshare has the same problem as the library of congress, namely that it is > > not accessible to those living outside the Us, I remember having to beg, > grovel, and finally ring Washington Dc from england to persuade the library > > of congress to send me books by specific authors that wren't available over > > here, a long and corporate process which was in no way fun, especially > > sinse for some odd reason only a limited amount of stuff could be sent > overseas. I've mentioned how bad the accesible literature bit in the Uk is > on list before so won't go on about it more, but suffice it to say that > these days my respect for the laws of copywrite as they apply to literature > > are pretty much zero, and will continue to be so until it's possible for a > visually impared person to obtain unabridged books at the same availability > > and price as a sighted person pays. > > In fact, when I've got down to creative writing and if I ever publish a work > > myself, one of the specifications! will be that the book must ave accessible > > copies produced for visually impared users at no extra charge. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Believe me I know exactly how you feel about access and copyright laws. I've had to put up with access issues with certain printed books and materials here in the US even though the laws here are pretty flexible regarding distributing printed materials in accessible formats. Still, there are cases, such as roll playing game source books, where its not always easy to get them in an accessible format because APH, NLS, and Learning Alley don't do roll playing game guides and source books. I found that out the hard way. I remember a few years ago back when the New Jedi Order was still coming out in paperback naturally Wizards of the Coast followed suit by releasing an expansion to the Star Wars roll playing game by putting out two very thick books on the New Jedi Order. There was the New Jedi Order Source Book which I needed because it included updated stats for main characters like Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade, Kip Duron, Jason and Jana Solo, etc. Plus all the new information on the YUUzhan Vong weapons, ships, etc. Then, there was the New Jedi Order Campaign Guide which had several prewritten campaigns to play. While I didn't specifically need the Campaign Guide, seeing as I had read all the books as they came out, it still was going to be helpful in getting into the NJO universe. I certainly didn't want to scan all that stuff so I called up my local NLS library. I asked the librarian about the two books, she looked it up on their computer, and told me they weren't available. Then, she proceeded to list all the New Jedi Order books on tape which wasn't what I wanted. I didn't want the novels but the game books, and as it turned out they didn't have any Star Wars roll playing game source books at all. All they had was the novels. Well, then I called up Learning Alley, formally RFB&D, and got the same response. They didn't have them, but if I wanted to send them two copies of the books one of their readers could read it onto tape. Now, I'm not sure why they need two copies of the book, but instead of buying two books I'd have to buy four books, two copies of each, just to have Learning Alley put them on audio tape. It was cheaper just to buy the books and scan them myself. Which is exactly what I'm going to do. As far as drivethrurpg.com I've checked and they don't have any of the Star Wars source books. However, that doesn't mean that Amazon or somewhere else doesn't have some of them in epub or pdf format. I'd have to check that out before I start scanning like a mad man and make them available on my website. Anyway, what I'm basically doing now is seeing if there is a legal way to distribute them. I'm pretty sure there is given that Bookshare, the NLS, APH, Learning Alley, etc can redistribute any book to blind and low vision citizens of the USA in some accessible format. However, as I understand the US copyright laws it has to be in a proprietary or specialized format only accessible to the blind and not sighted users. For example, books from the NLS are recorded at a slower spead and they create four tracks by recording in mono, one track in the left channel and the other in the right channel, which requires a special player to play. Therefore while it uses a common technology like audio tape it is done in such a way that only someone with the right kind of tape player can use it. Now, in the digital age places like Bookshare, Learning Alley, and NLS have adopted Daisy as the special format for e-books. Apparently using formats like html, text, pdf, etc aren't proprietary enough for the copyright laws so they have designed an electronic format just for blind materials. As long as I redistribute them in Daisy I should probably be alright as far as US copyright law goes. However, you did give me a good idea. One way to protect myself is to simply zip the scanned files, put a password on it, and will send people the password upon request rather than using Daisy. That might work because in order to join Learning Alley, Bookshare, or the NLS you have to supply some proof of blindness. While I wouldn't be that strict I could at least insure that the people who get the books belong to Audyssey or the Audiogames.net forum which should satisfy the publishers I'm not just handing them out to anyone and am trying to regulate who does and does not get them. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > personally I'm of the opinion that after 20 years of trying to get > accessible rp books, fantasy literature etc and being repeatedly stone > walled on the issue, copywrite can kiss my rear end! > In around the year 2000 I bought a cd which contained word documents of all > > the old D&D 2nd edition books in order to start tabletop rping, however of > course once I started i found that 3rd edition had replaced 2nd. I then > wrote a letter to wizards of the coast asking if they sold any accessible > versions of the D&D 3rd ed books, explaining that I was a blind person and > so couldn't read their
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. It's a pain, especially sinse in this country there is no government impetus or funding for access, so it's left to the Rnib who control with an iron fist and wouldn't ever! make accessible versions of rp books because (as they told me), "most blind people wouldn't like that" Though officially sinse 2005 an agency could make an accessible copy in this country without publishers' permission, none has actually done so, so accessible copies are left up to the good will of publishing agencies who don't generally have much. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:12 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, Such is the joys of international copyright law, and that's precisely why I don't want to go through Bookshare. Sure its legal and I might do it for no other reason than to let Bookshare subscribers have access to the books, but international copyrights being what they are just because its legal to download a source book book in accessible format in the USA it may not be legal to do so in the UK. That's dumb. Why should the CNIB, RNIB, or anyone else for that matter have to reinvent the wheel so to speak. If it is available from Bookshare, the NLS, Learning Alley, whatever why not simply make a copy of it and export it to foreign agencies? No, we can't do that because of copyright law x, y, and z. They have to get the copyrights and make their own recording or electronic copies. That too me is beyond stupidity, and the reason we as blind people always end up getting the screws. I can't condone putting the work into scanning, editing, and making these books accessible to have copyright laws say I can't export it to foreign countries because so and so hasn't purchased the copyrights and they must make their own accessible copies when there is already an accessible copy I just busted my rear off to give them. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: Hi al. Bookshare has the same problem as the library of congress, namely that it is not accessible to those living outside the Us, I remember having to beg, grovel, and finally ring Washington Dc from england to persuade the library of congress to send me books by specific authors that wren't available over here, a long and corporate process which was in no way fun, especially sinse for some odd reason only a limited amount of stuff could be sent overseas. I've mentioned how bad the accesible literature bit in the Uk is on list before so won't go on about it more, but suffice it to say that these days my respect for the laws of copywrite as they apply to literature are pretty much zero, and will continue to be so until it's possible for a visually impared person to obtain unabridged books at the same availability and price as a sighted person pays. In fact, when I've got down to creative writing and if I ever publish a work myself, one of the specifications! will be that the book must ave accessible copies produced for visually impared users at no extra charge. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. While I understand your frustration, and totally simpathize, for myself your experience has a different ring, being as up until 2006 no starwwars books were vailable in Britain at all! accept a few abridged commercial tape copies. The rnib did none of them. in 2006 they recorded the three throrn novels (one reason I know who Mara jayde is, though before that point I'd only ever seen her in the Masters of teras kasi beat em up). So, all the more reason to start distributing books in accessible format,perhaps with the password proviso as a safegard. I do think though things may change in the next few years, sinse the proprietory format arguement is pretty much an illusion anyway, given that it wouldn't be so difficult for me to just plug my r09 into any audio device and quickly make a digital copy in mp3 of the sound itself, that's assuming there isn't some sort of dazy coppier out there anyway. interestingly enough one of the few good organizations in Britain, calibre tape library actually don't! use proprietory formats for this reason, and tend to just think if people happen to copy their stuff to keep on computer, it doesn't matter. Actually calibre are lovely, they have a good set of readers, try to complete series, and are very carefull about what they reccord. The only sad thing is that they have so few resources their catalogue only contains a few hundred books, indeed I had to cancel my subscription with them after being a member for about six years because I'd physically read every sf, fantasy and horror book they had, not to mention all the books in other genres by writers who interested me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi John, Well, I could always ask Bookshare about that, but I was under the understanding that anyone can redistribute printed materials in an accessible format provided it is in accordance to the US copyright laws. As I understand it amendment 17 section 121 states that it is legal to redistribute printed materials in an accessible format to any US citizen who is legally blind and provided said materials are in a specialized format such as braille that is not used by the general public. I've read the copyright amendment and it is pretty clear what I can and can't do in regards to US copyrights, but as not everyone here resides in the United States I might get into hot water for breaking some international copyright agreement even though I am in compliance with US copyright law. Anyway, as for the Daisy format I plan to take a few Bookshare books apart and figure out how the Daisy format works. As I said I believe the underlying markup language is xml which is why Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, etc can display its contents. What I'm not sure about is if there is any special tags required by Daisy players, but I'll take a look around and see if there is some documentation on the Daisy format that will explain it to me better before I consider using it. Cheers! On 6/14/12, john wrote: > If you've ever downloaded and studied a bookshare daisy book, > you'll notice that some of them are essentially html files. By > this I mean that you can read the book in internet explorer. As > far as bookshare goes, you can also get a brf file version, which > is braille only. I'm not sure how legal distributing them would > be in any circumstance though, as I believe bookshare has their > own deal that they make with the publishers (or something like > that) which allows them to distribute the books. This isn't > really answering your question, but might clarify a bit of what > your asking. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
As far as I can tell, there are two different kinds of books. One of them has the text of the book in a standard html layout, and the other uses a .smil extension for the actual book. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward Well, I could always ask Bookshare about that, but I was under the understanding that anyone can redistribute printed materials in an accessible format provided it is in accordance to the US copyright laws. As I understand it amendment 17 section 121 states that it is legal to redistribute printed materials in an accessible format to any US citizen who is legally blind and provided said materials are in a specialized format such as braille that is not used by the general public. I've read the copyright amendment and it is pretty clear what I can and can't do in regards to US copyrights, but as not everyone here resides in the United States I might get into hot water for breaking some international copyright agreement even though I am in compliance with US copyright law. Anyway, as for the Daisy format I plan to take a few Bookshare books apart and figure out how the Daisy format works. As I said I believe the underlying markup language is xml which is why Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, etc can display its contents. What I'm not sure about is if there is any special tags required by Daisy players, but I'll take a look around and see if there is some documentation on the Daisy format that will explain it to me better before I consider using it. Cheers! On 6/14/12, john wrote: If you've ever downloaded and studied a bookshare daisy book, you'll notice that some of them are essentially html files. By this I mean that you can read the book in internet explorer. As far as bookshare goes, you can also get a brf file version, which is braille only. I'm not sure how legal distributing them would be in any circumstance though, as I believe bookshare has their own deal that they make with the publishers (or something like that) which allows them to distribute the books. This isn't really answering your question, but might clarify a bit of what your asking. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Well, I think we get some of that here, but just not as bad. While it is legal to redistribute copies of the RPG source books and campaign guides in an accessible format I think the reason the major agencies like APH, Learning Alley, and NLS don't is simply this belief that blind people wouldn't be interested in them. That, of course, isn't true and Dungeons and Dragons and similar spin off games are extremely popular with both blind and sighted players. For one reason it doesn't require any vision to play, and all we really need is some braille dice and a sheet of braille paper. The high tech player might use a laptop with the GMA Dice program and Windows notepad. Either way we certainly can play roll playing games, but there is an out dated idea that blind people wouldn't be interested in that type of thing. Probably because the people who make those kind of decisions are older and aren't interested in it themselves so assume people their age wouldn't like it. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > It's a pain, especially sinse in this country there is no government impetus > > or funding for access, so it's left to the Rnib who control with an iron > fist and wouldn't ever! make accessible versions of rp books because (as > they told me), "most blind people wouldn't like that" > > Though officially sinse 2005 an agency could make an accessible copy in this > > country without publishers' permission, none has actually done so, so > accessible copies are left up to the good will of publishing agencies who > don't generally have much. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Oh, when it comes to computers specialized digital formats are pretty much an illusion alright. As I already stated I can go to Bookshare, login, download any book I want, and then use the Linux command line tool to convert the Daisy book to text, html, etc. At that point I just removed the Daisy format, and if I wanted to could then open it in Gedit, the Linux text editor, and remove the page or two of Bookshare legal notices as well as the information who says who downloaded the book etc. Its not really security but the illusion of security that really counts here. Same could be said for the new NLS audio books. For the last couple of years NLS has been making their audio books available for download. You can download them, put them on a flash card, and put it in your Victor Stream and listen to it. Well, the book is in theory secure because you can't play it with a standard mp3 player, can't use a standard media player, and its encrypted somehow. No problem I'll just plug my Victor into the line-in jack on my computer and record it with Goldwave. "Oh, I'm sorry I just bypassed that bit of security just by recording it via Goldwave and saved it as a standard mp3." That's what I mean by illusion of security. The publishers just want the materials to be in a format not easily accessible to the average person, but if you think about it there is no way to make it secure from piracy.If you can hear it you can record it. If you can see text there is probably a way to convert or copy it. Yet, if that makes the publishers happy then so be it. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > While I understand your frustration, and totally simpathize, for myself your > > experience has a different ring, being as up until 2006 no starwwars books > were vailable in Britain at all! accept a few abridged commercial tape > copies. The rnib did none of them. in 2006 they recorded the three throrn > novels (one reason I know who Mara jayde is, though before that point I'd > only ever seen her in the Masters of teras kasi beat em up). > > So, all the more reason to start distributing books in accessible > format,perhaps with the password proviso as a safegard. > > I do think though things may change in the next few years, sinse the > proprietory format arguement is pretty much an illusion anyway, given that > it wouldn't be so difficult for me to just plug my r09 into any audio device > > and quickly make a digital copy in mp3 of the sound itself, that's > assuming there isn't some sort of dazy coppier out there anyway. > > interestingly enough one of the few good organizations in Britain, calibre > tape library actually don't! use proprietory formats for this reason, and > tend to just think if people happen to copy their stuff to keep on > computer, it doesn't matter. > > Actually calibre are lovely, they have a good set of readers, try to > complete series, and are very carefull about what they reccord. The only sad > > thing is that they have so few resources their catalogue only contains a few > > hundred books, indeed I had to cancel my subscription with them after being > > a member for about six years because I'd physically read every sf, fantasy > and horror book they had, not to mention all the books in other genres by > writers who interested me. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Unofrtunately Tom, with the rnib being so overbearing in this country, and also having far more control, that atitude gets multiplied a hundred fold. As I've also said with regards to games, I wonder what is going to happen when the generation who grew up in the 60's and 70's, the people currently in their 40's and early 50's start losing their vision, sinse they won't! be happy with knitting magazines, bingo and access only to crime or romance novels. Plus of course, sterriotyping older people is always a bad thing anyway. My next door neighbor is in her 80's, but uses a computer regularly to edit and destribute home made greetings cards, either printed out or through mail, and I certainly know a couple of players of core exiles who are over 60 (probably being a none pvp game, it attracts that style of player). But I'm scheptical of the rnib changing their opinions, sinse they don't actually listen to anyone who's not telling them what they want to here in the first place, heck I even offered to work on their book selection committee at one point, selecting books to be made available on the basis that I probably knew more about sf and fantasy, and about what series they'd already recorded than they do, but I was told that they didn't want members making such decisions and that was why they had reader requests (quite a joke because I'd been submitting reader requests from the age of 7). these days my philosophy is to avoid the Rnib as much as humanly possible, and do my own thing as regards books, services or anything else. Beware the grue! Beware the grue! Dark. Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, Well, I think we get some of that here, but just not as bad. While it is legal to redistribute copies of the RPG source books and campaign guides in an accessible format I think the reason the major agencies like APH, Learning Alley, and NLS don't is simply this belief that blind people wouldn't be interested in them. That, of course, isn't true and Dungeons and Dragons and similar spin off games are extremely popular with both blind and sighted players. For one reason it doesn't require any vision to play, and all we really need is some braille dice and a sheet of braille paper. The high tech player might use a laptop with the GMA Dice program and Windows notepad. Either way we certainly can play roll playing games, but there is an out dated idea that blind people wouldn't be interested in that type of thing. Probably because the people who make those kind of decisions are older and aren't interested in it themselves so assume people their age wouldn't like it. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: Hi Tom. It's a pain, especially sinse in this country there is no government impetus or funding for access, so it's left to the Rnib who control with an iron fist and wouldn't ever! make accessible versions of rp books because (as they told me), "most blind people wouldn't like that" Though officially sinse 2005 an agency could make an accessible copy in this country without publishers' permission, none has actually done so, so accessible copies are left up to the good will of publishing agencies who don't generally have much. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
I'm afraid I disagree tom, but probably that is primarily because of the laughable state of access in this country. the sooner the publishers stop trying to maintain an strangle hold on media generally, and accessible media in particular, the sooner the digital age and the sharing of information will be just what it should be. In fairness though i've got no sympathy or respect for those corporate monsters at all! I myself would love to see all publishers works done on a donation basis like podiobooks, or at least sold as downloadables. We are after all entering a time where there is no need to pay for printing or bind or selling of copies, you just pay for the work of the author, which indeed as podiobooks and the like shows needs little in the matter of distribution these days. Assuming that there isn't some sort of major world crysis, I think that will eventually happen, because history has shon that capitalism can't hold back technology, but it might not be for quite a long while. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message -- --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Well, I think everyone is going to have a rude awakening when that happens. I don't know if you have read it, but Elanor wrote a great article on 7-128's website about the baby boomers reaching 60, and the fact if mainstream video game companies don't act now they could be losing millions of dollars as that generation will no longer be able to buy and play their games. I think the RNIB is going to eventually have a similar experience in what books and magazines they offer. After all, the baby boomer generation, my parents generation, grew up with the Adventures of Superman, Star Trek, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Lost in Space, the Invaders, and so on. Most were in their late 20's and early 30's when Star Wars was first introduced at the theaters and many of them have gone on to be lifelong fans of it. My point is weather the RNIB etc like it sci-fi is definitely something the baby boomers will be interested in, most of them are in their early 60's now, and will be having vision issues within the next 10 years or so. Eventually the shear number of requests will probably pressure them into making some kind of change. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Unofrtunately Tom, with the rnib being so overbearing in this country, and > also having far more control, that atitude gets multiplied a hundred fold. > > As I've also said with regards to games, I wonder what is going to happen > when the generation who grew up in the 60's and 70's, the people currently > in their 40's and early 50's start losing their vision, sinse they won't! be > > happy with knitting magazines, bingo and access only to crime or romance > novels. > > Plus of course, sterriotyping older people is always a bad thing anyway. My > > next door neighbor is in her 80's, but uses a computer regularly to edit and > > destribute home made greetings cards, either printed out or through mail, > and I certainly know a couple of players of core exiles who are over 60 > (probably being a none pvp game, it attracts that style of player). > > But I'm scheptical of the rnib changing their opinions, sinse they don't > actually listen to anyone who's not telling them what they want to here in > the first place, heck I even offered to work on their book selection > committee at one point, selecting books to be made available on the basis > that I probably knew more about sf and fantasy, and about what series they'd > > already recorded than they do, but I was told that they didn't want > members making such decisions and that was why they had reader requests > (quite a joke because I'd been submitting reader requests from the age of > 7). > > these days my philosophy is to avoid the Rnib as much as humanly possible, > and do my own thing as regards books, services or anything else. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Very true. Its interesting that capitalism is driving the technology boom, but at the same time its causing problems for other companies who want to remain behind. That has never been as clear as the SOPA and PIPA acts the recording industry tried to shove through congress this spring. Its been known for years that compact disc sales have been falling simply because of downloadable formats like mp3 or wma. The RIAA could have adopted the technology 10, 12, maybe even 15 years ago,and sold them through the internet like iTunes and Amazon does now but didn't. Instead they held off, continued trying to sell compact discs, went after Napster and others, and blamed piracy on their loss of sales. The fact of the matter is most people don't want compact discs any more, and prefer to just go to iTunes or Amazon and buy the mp3s, download them to their mp3 player, and be done with it. The only reason the RIAA are screaming so loudly is because if i buy an mp3 from Amazon I can put it on Dropbox and give it away to however many friends I have where I couldn't do that with a compact disc, and belatedly they are just realizing they are screwed because media like compact discs are no longer in demand. Publishers are about to discover the same thing. As you said there is really no reason to print and bind books. There are several devices where you can download an epub book,open it up, and read it on your e-book reader. Digital media is quickly and rapidly making the printing press and physical compact discs unnecessary for the average citizen. Eventually, I figure we'll be able to go to Amazon, Barns and Noble, etc and just download everything we want in epub or some other electronic format. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > I'm afraid I disagree tom, but probably that is primarily because of the > laughable state of access in this country. > > the sooner the publishers stop trying to maintain an strangle hold on media > > generally, and accessible media in particular, the sooner the digital age > and the sharing of information will be just what it should be. In fairness > though i've got no sympathy or respect for those corporate monsters at all! > > I myself would love to see all publishers works done on a donation basis > like podiobooks, or at least sold as downloadables. We are after all > entering a time where there is no need to pay for printing or bind or > selling of copies, you just pay for the work of the author, which indeed as > > podiobooks and the like shows needs little in the matter of distribution > these days. > > Assuming that there isn't some sort of major world crysis, I think that will > > eventually happen, because history has shon that capitalism can't hold back > > technology, but it might not be for quite a long while. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi tom. yes, I read that artical too. Don't forget as well that t here in the Uk things are a little less rigid life style wise as in the states. What I mean is, my parents aren't big sf buffs, but enjoy doctor who, rather the way a friend of mine does rp, computer games, death metal, nihlism and dune (he is also something of a fan of real world spices too), yet enjoys cirkcet. what I mean is, I know in at least some parts of the states being a "nerd" or a "jock" or whatever is pretty much a major choice, and one made by only a few people in the population, where as in the Uk, people are a little more fluid about pass times and such. Btw, this isn't to say everyone! in the states falls into one catagory or another, only that from what I've noticed, social sterriotypes, and people adhereing to those sorts of rolls are probably a little more common when it comes to the hole sf, sport etc thing in the states than in the Uk, meaning that here there are probably more people likely to be fans of sf and games occasionally, even if it is not a main interest. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, Well, I think everyone is going to have a rude awakening when that happens. I don't know if you have read it, but Elanor wrote a great article on 7-128's website about the baby boomers reaching 60, and the fact if mainstream video game companies don't act now they could be losing millions of dollars as that generation will no longer be able to buy and play their games. I think the RNIB is going to eventually have a similar experience in what books and magazines they offer. After all, the baby boomer generation, my parents generation, grew up with the Adventures of Superman, Star Trek, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Lost in Space, the Invaders, and so on. Most were in their late 20's and early 30's when Star Wars was first introduced at the theaters and many of them have gone on to be lifelong fans of it. My point is weather the RNIB etc like it sci-fi is definitely something the baby boomers will be interested in, most of them are in their early 60's now, and will be having vision issues within the next 10 years or so. Eventually the shear number of requests will probably pressure them into making some kind of change. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: Unofrtunately Tom, with the rnib being so overbearing in this country, and also having far more control, that atitude gets multiplied a hundred fold. As I've also said with regards to games, I wonder what is going to happen when the generation who grew up in the 60's and 70's, the people currently in their 40's and early 50's start losing their vision, sinse they won't! be happy with knitting magazines, bingo and access only to crime or romance novels. Plus of course, sterriotyping older people is always a bad thing anyway. My next door neighbor is in her 80's, but uses a computer regularly to edit and destribute home made greetings cards, either printed out or through mail, and I certainly know a couple of players of core exiles who are over 60 (probably being a none pvp game, it attracts that style of player). But I'm scheptical of the rnib changing their opinions, sinse they don't actually listen to anyone who's not telling them what they want to here in the first place, heck I even offered to work on their book selection committee at one point, selecting books to be made available on the basis that I probably knew more about sf and fantasy, and about what series they'd already recorded than they do, but I was told that they didn't want members making such decisions and that was why they had reader requests (quite a joke because I'd been submitting reader requests from the age of 7). these days my philosophy is to avoid the Rnib as much as humanly possible, and do my own thing as regards books, services or anything else. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. that is true, and the way I see things going. also, when discussing the issue of piracy with my mum, one thing she pointed out is that with a physical book, you can lend it to friends and family, as in fact people have been doing sinse the invention of mass printing, so why should putting a book, or indeed an mp3 on a file sharing service and sending it to friends to here make a difference? indeed, that! sort of practice has been seen to promote sales, because quite obviously if someone lends you one thing via download you will want to get more for yourself. this is indeed what I did with the big finish Doctor who audio dramas myself. I was sent a couple via download from a friend, liked them and wanted more, and I now buy them myself. The sooner people realize the potential for digital distribution, the better. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
I completely and utterly agree with you Dark. It reminds me of the Disturbed (a band) situation. I heard an album of theirs from my taxi driver, loved it, downloaded the rest, then bought loads of them a while later. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 15 June 2012 03:25 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Tom. that is true, and the way I see things going. also, when discussing the issue of piracy with my mum, one thing she pointed out is that with a physical book, you can lend it to friends and family, as in fact people have been doing sinse the invention of mass printing, so why should putting a book, or indeed an mp3 on a file sharing service and sending it to friends to here make a difference? indeed, that! sort of practice has been seen to promote sales, because quite obviously if someone lends you one thing via download you will want to get more for yourself. this is indeed what I did with the big finish Doctor who audio dramas myself. I was sent a couple via download from a friend, liked them and wanted more, and I now buy them myself. The sooner people realize the potential for digital distribution, the better. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2433/5069 - Release Date: 06/14/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Thomas, That might be true for books or music. What I never got was the why all things had to be limited. For example, one of my friends bought the complete Outlander Series (at that time six books) as an audiobook series on a few MP3 CDs. They didn't use DVD discs at that time except for movies in Germany. That was around 2006. Other media like DVDs or Blu Ray discs have more storage capacity than your average CD ROM, but the only thing they are used for is either games or HD movies or TV shows. But you also could store a high quality (lossless) music archive on such a disc and sell that. But apparently no one is thinking of that. But it seems to be easier to cry for help because "pirates are the cause for not getting enough money". But one reason why people might use file sharing services could be that prices for audiobooks or music have been rising (at least in Germany), or because lots of music from smaller labels can't be found on Amazon, or Itunes. Or the other problem someone might encounter is that your favorite book or CD is no longer on sale in your favorite store or onlineshop. And when it comes to games (mainstream), I still can't get, why so many games have to be released for one platform only. While it might be expensive to get awhatever library or tool set to program for game consoles, once you have said tools, you can rdevelop your product and release it. And theoretically you don't need to edit content for porting the product to another platform, but you would have to change your code. But if you released one platform version first and if your title was a success, you could use the gained money to cover cost of porting, if you didn't start cross platform from the very beginning. And if the console creators or apple set high quality standards the games have to follow before release is allowed, then that should be no problem for a PC (Windows or Linux) release, because your content and basic game play mechanics follow the required standards at the release date, because they wouldn't get out if they weren't... And while we are at it, I still don't get, why several games get expansion packs, or some other downloadable content exclusive to platform x while platform y users get something different. I heard some rumors that Mass Effect 3 and Max Payne 3 are getting some downloadable content. But since the PC version of Max Payne 3 is to come out somewhere around the end of this month while the console versions are already out, no one knows if extra content is being released or not. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Michael, Money only makes sense when something is scarce. Traditionally, it's been possible to make music and books "scarce" by limiting how many copies were printed, because the music and writing was attached to a physical object. Copyright was put in place to limit who could make extra copies. Because copies were scarce, you could charge for them. Before the internet, media companies basically had monopoly power to charge for copies of things they owned. Copyright allowed media companies to become a monopoly by limiting copies. Did you know that book publishers tried to pass laws to keep their books out of public libraries about a hundred years ago? They filed a lot of lawsuits and did everything they could to keep their books from being shared by libraries. It took several supreme court decisions to get their crap thrown out. In the age of the internet, it's very hard to limit copies, but the laws haven't caught up with reality yet. Publishers are fighting tooth and nail to keep their monopoly power: just like a hundred years ago, they're filing lawsuits and trying to get stupid laws written to keep it. Basically, they have a cash cow, and they don't want to give it up. Sure, they could make more money by doing more modern things, but it would be easier for them to just keep their cash cow. Keep in mind that the media companies could actually win, and really lock down the internet if people like you and I don't pay attention. China has censored the internet pretty hard, and by passing the right laws, publishers could do it here, in the united states and europe. -dentin Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: > Hi Thomas, > That might be true for books or music. > What I never got was the why all things had to be limited. > For example, one of my friends bought the complete Outlander Series (at that > time six books) as an audiobook series on a few MP3 CDs. > They didn't use DVD discs at that time except for movies in Germany. > That was around 2006. > Other media like DVDs or Blu Ray discs have more storage capacity than your > average CD ROM, but the only thing they are used for is either games or HD > movies or TV shows. > But you also could store a high quality (lossless) music archive on such a > disc and sell that. > But apparently no one is thinking of that. > But it seems to be easier to cry for help because "pirates are the cause for > not getting enough money". > But one reason why people might use file sharing services could be that > prices for audiobooks or music have been rising (at least in Germany), or > because lots of music from smaller labels can't be found on Amazon, or > Itunes. > Or the other problem someone might encounter is that your favorite book or > CD is no longer on sale in your favorite store or onlineshop. > > And when it comes to games (mainstream), I still can't get, why so many > games have to be released for one platform only. > While it might be expensive to get awhatever library or tool set to program > for game consoles, once you have said tools, you can rdevelop your product > and release it. > And theoretically you don't need to edit content for porting the product to > another platform, but you would have to change your code. > But if you released one platform version first and if your title was a > success, you could use the gained money to cover cost of porting, if you > didn't start cross platform from the very beginning. > And if the console creators or apple set high quality standards the games > have to follow before release is allowed, then that should be no problem for > a PC (Windows or Linux) release, because your content and basic game play > mechanics follow the required standards at the release date, because they > wouldn't get out if they weren't... > > And while we are at it, I still don't get, why several games get expansion > packs, or some other downloadable content exclusive to platform x while > platform y users get something different. > I heard some rumors that Mass Effect 3 and Max Payne 3 are getting some > downloadable content. > But since the PC version of Max Payne 3 is to come out somewhere around the > end of this month while the console versions are already out, no one knows > if extra content is being released or not. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make chan
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
I don't really know much about these source books you are talking about, but I would imagine there must be tons out there and surely someone has already scanned these onto a computer. I know a lot of people will disagree with torrent (peer to peer) sharing sites but is it worth taking a look through Google to see if these are already out there. I disagree with outright piracy but if you already own the original anyway then your just using the site to get a back up version so doing nothing wrong (at least that's how I thought it works and the way these sites get round breaking any laws and aren't shut down straight away) like dark I live in the UK and have had difficulties getting certain audio books and although the RNIB does have a big selection there are still a lot of books they either don't have or don't have the complete series off. I have some hard back books from when I could see and couldn't get the audio version in the auk so since I owned the original and can't get an audio copy I've downloaded it but like I said since I own the original in my opinion don't think I'm doing anything wrong (others might disagree) but I've brought the product and just want to read and enjoy it again. And don't think I shouldn't be able to just because its not accessable in this country. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf of Thomas Ward Sent: 15 June 2012 01:24 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, Well, I think we get some of that here, but just not as bad. While it is legal to redistribute copies of the RPG source books and campaign guides in an accessible format I think the reason the major agencies like APH, Learning Alley, and NLS don't is simply this belief that blind people wouldn't be interested in them. That, of course, isn't true and Dungeons and Dragons and similar spin off games are extremely popular with both blind and sighted players. For one reason it doesn't require any vision to play, and all we really need is some braille dice and a sheet of braille paper. The high tech player might use a laptop with the GMA Dice program and Windows notepad. Either way we certainly can play roll playing games, but there is an out dated idea that blind people wouldn't be interested in that type of thing. Probably because the people who make those kind of decisions are older and aren't interested in it themselves so assume people their age wouldn't like it. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > It's a pain, especially sinse in this country there is no government impetus > > or funding for access, so it's left to the Rnib who control with an iron > fist and wouldn't ever! make accessible versions of rp books because (as > they told me), "most blind people wouldn't like that" > > Though officially sinse 2005 an agency could make an accessible copy in this > > country without publishers' permission, none has actually done so, so > accessible copies are left up to the good will of publishing agencies who > don't generally have much. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Michael, The answer to both of your questions is simply money. Companies limit the number of items in order to force prices up by controlling the supply and raising the demand for those products. If they didn't do it that way eventually they would have a large supply of products but little to no demand for them making the value of their products worthless. Therefore they limit the number of products that are created and sold. To put it another way if a company creates only 10,000 copies of a certain product they can set whatever price they think it will sell for. If the supply is limited and demand is high then the product will sell for a lot more money than if the company had made 1,000,000 copies of that product. Make sense? However, the problem is that the internet has made it possible to share electronic media like books, movies, music, and games so that the normal rules of supply and demand no longer apply. Without encryption and other forms of security a person can make hundreds, thousands, and perhaps millions of copies of the media making it totally worthless financially. So the companies are trying in their own little ways to restrict access and distribution of the content so they can control the supply and demand, but are finding that harder to do in an e-world where there is no physical media to control. As for the issue of cross-platform games we've been over that before, and I can say little I haven't said already. There are technical issues with creating cross-platform games, extra costs involved, it takes more time and manpower, and most companies simply do not want to invest time and money into a platform they don't think will sell as well. If we say Windows has roughly 80% to 85% of the PC market, Mac OS has 10%, and Linux the remaining 5% its clear that the majority of money will be had in making a Windows game where Mac OS and Linux would probably not return as high an investment for the company so many choose not to do it unless there is some other incentive for doing so. Those who do develop cross-platform versions of games such as a version for XBox, another for Play Station III, and another for Wii can maximize their investment by creating platform exclusive content. That's why a version of the game for platform x might get an expansion pack and the version for platform y gets something else. The companies believe if you like the game that much, want the expansions etc enough, you'll buy both versions and play them. Its just another way to get you to pay twice for something you already have. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Michael Gauler wrote: > Hi Thomas, > That might be true for books or music. > What I never got was the why all things had to be limited. > For example, one of my friends bought the complete Outlander Series (at > that > time six books) as an audiobook series on a few MP3 CDs. > They didn't use DVD discs at that time except for movies in Germany. > That was around 2006. > Other media like DVDs or Blu Ray discs have more storage capacity than your > average CD ROM, but the only thing they are used for is either games or HD > movies or TV shows. > But you also could store a high quality (lossless) music archive on such a > disc and sell that. > But apparently no one is thinking of that. > But it seems to be easier to cry for help because "pirates are the cause > for > not getting enough money". > But one reason why people might use file sharing services could be that > prices for audiobooks or music have been rising (at least in Germany), or > because lots of music from smaller labels can't be found on Amazon, or > Itunes. > Or the other problem someone might encounter is that your favorite book or > CD is no longer on sale in your favorite store or onlineshop. > > And when it comes to games (mainstream), I still can't get, why so many > games have to be released for one platform only. > While it might be expensive to get awhatever library or tool set to program > > for game consoles, once you have said tools, you can rdevelop your product > and release it. > And theoretically you don't need to edit content for porting the product to > > another platform, but you would have to change your code. > But if you released one platform version first and if your title was a > success, you could use the gained money to cover cost of porting, if you > didn't start cross platform from the very beginning. > And if the console creators or apple set high quality standards the games > have to follow before release is allowed, then that should be no problem for > > a PC (Windows or Linux) release, because your content and basic game play > mechanics follow the required standards at the release date, because they > wouldn't get out if they weren't... > > And while we are at it, I still don't get, why several games get expansion > packs, or some other downloadable content exclusive to platform x while > platform y users get something different. > I heard some rumors that Mass Effect 3
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
The odd thing is, if you go back in time that is not how copywrite started, or what it was intended to do. it was not the protection of the printer or distributor, but of the author, so that nobody could claime credit or financial compensation for his/her work without being the one who actually came up with the idea. I hope the eventual outcome will be a return to that sort of status, where distributors change their focus from actually distributing a product and attemptinng to create demmand for it, but advertizing the author's own work so that people who wish can gain the music, art, literature or whatever directly from them, with compensations made for their work, not for the ownership of a specific copy of it. This is the way that sites like podiobooks and darker projects work, and I've donated cash to those sites myself because I like what they do, and my disagreement with publishers and distributers isn't with the authors of the work originally, indeed if I had my choice, I'd much rather just send money directly to the author for an accessible copy. Indeed, now that things like books can be written and distributed without! the need of printers, publishers etc, I would hope to see these people disappear altogether, or at least take a back seat, only providing physical books and cds to those who want them as semi ornamental items, rather than people just interested in the words or music itself. We'll have to see though, sinse the hole economic status of the world is going to hell in a hand baskit at the moment, thanks to corporate interest in control of nations and too many self interested parties working up massive debts that nobody can actually pay, and I'm fairly certain the next 10 or 15 years will se a major crash of one sort or another. Hopefully people will learn better afterwards, assuming we get through it. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Michael, The answer to both of your questions is simply money. Companies limit the number of items in order to force prices up by controlling the supply and raising the demand for those products. If they didn't do it that way eventually they would have a large supply of products but little to no demand for them making the value of their products worthless. Therefore they limit the number of products that are created and sold. To put it another way if a company creates only 10,000 copies of a certain product they can set whatever price they think it will sell for. If the supply is limited and demand is high then the product will sell for a lot more money than if the company had made 1,000,000 copies of that product. Make sense? However, the problem is that the internet has made it possible to share electronic media like books, movies, music, and games so that the normal rules of supply and demand no longer apply. Without encryption and other forms of security a person can make hundreds, thousands, and perhaps millions of copies of the media making it totally worthless financially. So the companies are trying in their own little ways to restrict access and distribution of the content so they can control the supply and demand, but are finding that harder to do in an e-world where there is no physical media to control. As for the issue of cross-platform games we've been over that before, and I can say little I haven't said already. There are technical issues with creating cross-platform games, extra costs involved, it takes more time and manpower, and most companies simply do not want to invest time and money into a platform they don't think will sell as well. If we say Windows has roughly 80% to 85% of the PC market, Mac OS has 10%, and Linux the remaining 5% its clear that the majority of money will be had in making a Windows game where Mac OS and Linux would probably not return as high an investment for the company so many choose not to do it unless there is some other incentive for doing so. Those who do develop cross-platform versions of games such as a version for XBox, another for Play Station III, and another for Wii can maximize their investment by creating platform exclusive content. That's why a version of the game for platform x might get an expansion pack and the version for platform y gets something else. The companies believe if you like the game that much, want the expansions etc enough, you'll buy both versions and play them. Its just another way to get you to pay twice for something you already have. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Michael Gauler wrote: Hi Thomas, That might be true for books or music. What I never got was the why all things had to be limited. For example, one of my friends bought the complete Outlander Series (at that time six books) as an
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul, I've already checked. While there are scanned copies of the sourcebooks out there on The Pirate Bay and other torrent sites they aren't at all screen reader accessible. What I mean by that is a lot of people just scan the sourcebooks, save the individual pages as jpg images, and then create a pdf document of all the pictures. So what we end up with when downloading these sourcebooks in pdf format is three to four hundred pictures of the pages but nothing the screen readers can read. It is just all one big graphic as far as Jaws, Window-Eyes, NVDA, etc is concerned. Of course, I do understand the reasoning behind why the people are scanning the pages as images and saving them as a pdf document rather than converting them to text using an OCR program like Omnipage. The books are full of pictures of the various aliens, ships, weapons, droids, etc. If someone were to scan the book using Omnipage it would take a picture of the page, remove any images from the page, and convert the printed words to ascii text. Therefore all the images and artwork in the books would be gone. Most sighted people wouldn't want that so they just take a picture of the page as it doesn't prevent them from reading it, but is totally inaccessible to us. So in the end I'm right back where I started. I have to scan the books in Openbook, spell check the documents, and save them in a format like text. Then, if I want the formatting etc back use html to reformat everything so it is both screen reader readable and more or less has the same formatting as the print copy. Easier said than done though. I've scanned several pages of the New Jedi Order Sourcebook today and Openbook consistently made stupid mistakes. For example, instead of Yuuzhan Vong it would put something in like Yang which isn't even close to the correct spelling or name of that alien race. I am suspecting Openbook is trying to convert it into English, uses some type of error checking, and since Yuuzhan Vong isn't in its vocabulary it tries to guess using some other word like Yang which makes sense to it. One reason I think that is because in the New Jedi Order series there is a female scientist named Danni Quee. Well when scanning the sourcebook I've seen Openbook scan her name as Dan Queen twice. Again that's totally wrong, not even close,and of course Freedom Scientific's stupid spell checker doesn't get the mistake either. I've only found those kinds of errors by editing the pages manually and using my own knolege of the Star Wars universe to fix and correct mistakes that Openbook made. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > I don't really know much about these source books you are talking about, > but > I would imagine there must be tons out there and surely someone has already > scanned these onto a computer. I know a lot of people will disagree with > torrent (peer to peer) sharing sites but is it worth taking a look through > Google to see if these are already out there. I disagree with outright > piracy but if you already own the original anyway then your just using > the > site to get a back up version so doing nothing wrong (at least that's how I > thought it works and the way these sites get round breaking any laws and > aren't shut down straight away) like dark I live in the UK and have had > difficulties getting certain audio books and although the RNIB does have a > big selection there are still a lot of books they either don't have or > don't have the complete series off. I have some hard back books from when I > could see and couldn't get the audio version in the auk so since I owned > the > original and can't get an audio copy I've downloaded it but like I said > since I own the original in my opinion don't think I'm doing anything wrong > (others might disagree) but I've brought the product and just want to read > and enjoy it again. And don't think I shouldn't be able to just because its > not accessable in this country. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Heh you've got more than your work cut out scanning that series. Even the computer threw up over some of those names trying to read them. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward sourcebooks out there on The Pirate Bay and other torrent sites they aren't at all screen reader accessible. What I mean by that is a lot of people just scan the sourcebooks, save the individual pages as jpg images, and then create a pdf document of all the pictures. So what we end up with when downloading these sourcebooks in pdf format is three to four hundred pictures of the pages but nothing the screen readers can read. It is just all one big graphic as far as Jaws, Window-Eyes, NVDA, etc is concerned. Of course, I do understand the reasoning behind why the people are scanning the pages as images and saving them as a pdf document rather than converting them to text using an OCR program like Omnipage. The books are full of pictures of the various aliens, ships, weapons, droids, etc. If someone were to scan the book using Omnipage it would take a picture of the page, remove any images from the page, and convert the printed words to ascii text. Therefore all the images and artwork in the books would be gone. Most sighted people wouldn't want that so they just take a picture of the page as it doesn't prevent them from reading it, but is totally inaccessible to us. So in the end I'm right back where I started. I have to scan the books in Openbook, spell check the documents, and save them in a format like text. Then, if I want the formatting etc back use html to reformat everything so it is both screen reader readable and more or less has the same formatting as the print copy. Easier said than done though. I've scanned several pages of the New Jedi Order Sourcebook today and Openbook consistently made stupid mistakes. For example, instead of Yuuzhan Vong it would put something in like Yang which isn't even close to the correct spelling or name of that alien race. I am suspecting Openbook is trying to convert it into English, uses some type of error checking, and since Yuuzhan Vong isn't in its vocabulary it tries to guess using some other word like Yang which makes sense to it. One reason I think that is because in the New Jedi Order series there is a female scientist named Danni Quee. Well when scanning the sourcebook I've seen Openbook scan her name as Dan Queen twice. Again that's totally wrong, not even close,and of course Freedom Scientific's stupid spell checker doesn't get the mistake either. I've only found those kinds of errors by editing the pages manually and using my own knolege of the Star Wars universe to fix and correct mistakes that Openbook made. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Paul Lemm wrote: I don't really know much about these source books you are talking about, but I would imagine there must be tons out there and surely someone has already scanned these onto a computer. I know a lot of people will disagree with torrent (peer to peer) sharing sites but is it worth taking a look through Google to see if these are already out there. I disagree with outright piracy but if you already own the original anyway then your just using the site to get a back up version so doing nothing wrong (at least that's how I thought it works and the way these sites get round breaking any laws and aren't shut down straight away) like dark I live in the UK and have had difficulties getting certain audio books and although the RNIB does have a big selection there are still a lot of books they either don't have or don't have the complete series off. I have some hard back books from when I could see and couldn't get the audio version in the auk so since I owned the original and can't get an audio copy I've downloaded it but like I said since I own the original in my opinion don't think I'm doing anything wrong (others might disagree) but I've brought the product and just want to read and enjoy it again. And don't think I shouldn't be able to just because its not accessable in this country. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns r
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi, Sorry I hadn't thought of that, I'm so used to scanning everything with OCR that I totally forgot that just scanning something normally just gives you an image of everything rather than text. Which like you said is obviously what people without any sight problems would do. Sounds like a big (and possibly very frustrating) task ahead of you, but I imagine that it will be worth the while in the end. I'm sure you'll be glad to have an accessible version and from various lists I seen other people with sight loss talking about these kind of role play games to so I think there will be some others that will enjoy and appreciate the work you do on this once its completed Hopefully you find a way of turning off the automatic dictionary , I'm sure that will make it a little easier, well hopefully anyway. All the best -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 16 June 2012 00:22 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Paul, I've already checked. While there are scanned copies of the sourcebooks out there on The Pirate Bay and other torrent sites they aren't at all screen reader accessible. What I mean by that is a lot of people just scan the sourcebooks, save the individual pages as jpg images, and then create a pdf document of all the pictures. So what we end up with when downloading these sourcebooks in pdf format is three to four hundred pictures of the pages but nothing the screen readers can read. It is just all one big graphic as far as Jaws, Window-Eyes, NVDA, etc is concerned. Of course, I do understand the reasoning behind why the people are scanning the pages as images and saving them as a pdf document rather than converting them to text using an OCR program like Omnipage. The books are full of pictures of the various aliens, ships, weapons, droids, etc. If someone were to scan the book using Omnipage it would take a picture of the page, remove any images from the page, and convert the printed words to ascii text. Therefore all the images and artwork in the books would be gone. Most sighted people wouldn't want that so they just take a picture of the page as it doesn't prevent them from reading it, but is totally inaccessible to us. So in the end I'm right back where I started. I have to scan the books in Openbook, spell check the documents, and save them in a format like text. Then, if I want the formatting etc back use html to reformat everything so it is both screen reader readable and more or less has the same formatting as the print copy. Easier said than done though. I've scanned several pages of the New Jedi Order Sourcebook today and Openbook consistently made stupid mistakes. For example, instead of Yuuzhan Vong it would put something in like Yang which isn't even close to the correct spelling or name of that alien race. I am suspecting Openbook is trying to convert it into English, uses some type of error checking, and since Yuuzhan Vong isn't in its vocabulary it tries to guess using some other word like Yang which makes sense to it. One reason I think that is because in the New Jedi Order series there is a female scientist named Danni Quee. Well when scanning the sourcebook I've seen Openbook scan her name as Dan Queen twice. Again that's totally wrong, not even close,and of course Freedom Scientific's stupid spell checker doesn't get the mistake either. I've only found those kinds of errors by editing the pages manually and using my own knolege of the Star Wars universe to fix and correct mistakes that Openbook made. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > I don't really know much about these source books you are talking about, > but > I would imagine there must be tons out there and surely someone has already > scanned these onto a computer. I know a lot of people will disagree with > torrent (peer to peer) sharing sites but is it worth taking a look through > Google to see if these are already out there. I disagree with outright > piracy but if you already own the original anyway then your just using > the > site to get a back up version so doing nothing wrong (at least that's how I > thought it works and the way these sites get round breaking any laws and > aren't shut down straight away) like dark I live in the UK and have had > difficulties getting certain audio books and although the RNIB does have a > big selection there are still a lot of books they either don't have or > don't have the complete series off. I have some hard back books from when I > could see and couldn't get the audio version in the auk so since I owned > the > original and can't get an audio copy I've downloaded it but like I said > since I own the original in my opinion don
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Well, the copyright laws may have been intended to protect the original author rather than the distributors, but that seems to have been reversed in recent years. I know of several cases where various musicians have had to go to court in order to get the copyrights back from their prior recording company because the company assumes its own distribution copyrights on that music preventing the original band or artist from singing or playing that song with a different company or label. Some band might make a song with Warner and switch to RCA. If they want to play that song live, record a live album using RCA, etc they must go to court and get copyright control of their own music from Warner even though they created it in the first place. Talk about screwed up copyright laws! For example, John Fogerty, the leade singer and guitar player for Creedents Clearwater Revival, left the band in the early 80's to create his own solo career under a different music label.Even though most of the songs in the Creedents Clearwater Revival catalog were written by John Fogerty, created by him, he was not permited to sing, play, or make reference to his prior work since he was under a different music label. Eventually, he turned around and sued the record company and won. However, it wasn't until the mid 90's until he was able to resume copyright control of the Creedents' catalog which is ridiculous since he is the man behind that bands music and fame. Sadly he isn't the only person who got screwed over by a greedy record company. Dianna Ross, the lead singer for the Supremes, also had something of a copyright battle with the record companies for her music. Like John Fogerty she decided to go out on her own, create some new albums under her own name, and found out as long as she wasn't with the Supremes she wasn't legally permitted to sing or play any of the hits from the Supremes catalog. Eventually, around 1987 she battled the record company and ended up assuming copyright control over the Supremes catalog. Music that should have been her's by right in the first place. Go figure. However, the point I want to make is there is a distressing tend for publishers, record companies, and other distributors to assume the copyrights of any works they publish.Even if they don't have full control they usually get some sort of secondary copyright that prevents the author or artist from publishing using some other company which simply isn't fair at all. Cheers! On 6/15/12, dark wrote: > The odd thing is, if you go back in time that is not how copywrite started, > > or what it was intended to do. it was not the protection of the printer or > distributor, but of the author, so that nobody could claime credit or > financial compensation for his/her work without being the one who actually > came up with the idea. > > I hope the eventual outcome will be a return to that sort of status, where > distributors change their focus from actually distributing a product and > attemptinng to create demmand for it, but advertizing the author's own work > > so that people who wish can gain the music, art, literature or whatever > directly from them, with compensations made for their work, not for the > ownership of a specific copy of it. > > This is the way that sites like podiobooks and darker projects work, and > I've donated cash to those sites myself because I like what they do, and my > > disagreement with publishers and distributers isn't with the authors of the > > work originally, indeed if I had my choice, I'd much rather just send > money directly to the author for an accessible copy. > > Indeed, now that things like books can be written and distributed without! > the need of printers, publishers etc, I would hope to see these people > disappear altogether, or at least take a back seat, only providing physical > > books and cds to those who want them as semi ornamental items, rather than > people just interested in the words or music itself. > > We'll have to see though, sinse the hole economic status of the world is > going to hell in a hand baskit at the moment, thanks to corporate interest > in control of nations and too many self interested parties working up > massive debts that nobody can actually pay, and I'm fairly certain the next > > 10 or 15 years will se a major crash of one sort or another. Hopefully > people will learn better afterwards, assuming we get through it. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
This is actually why, though when i started my degree I initially scanned a lot of material, I've pretty much given up now and use my readers' grant to pay someone to read material for my phd instead, though sinse she also acts as my research assistant, helping with finding and skimming articals a scanner wouldn't solve the problem entirely. Either way, it was the amount of work with scanning only to get something less than coherent which put me off the practice, these days I'd much rather have something read in audio by an actual human being, especially if it is a book, or at the least an accurate text copy if that isn't available. I did used to also have something of an avertion to reading dramatic text with a synth voice, which put me off scanning for any sort of access to novels, though I wouldn't be quite as concerned about that these days given how much better synths are, though I'd still always take even the worst human reader over a synth, because of natural voice speed and pausing even if you discount any dramatic element in the reading, though those areas are improving. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Crazy! and all the more reason I have have no respect for these selfish bullies. beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, Well, the copyright laws may have been intended to protect the original author rather than the distributors, but that seems to have been reversed in recent years. I know of several cases where various musicians have had to go to court in order to get the copyrights back from their prior recording company because the company assumes its own distribution copyrights on that music preventing the original band or artist from singing or playing that song with a different company or label. Some band might make a song with Warner and switch to RCA. If they want to play that song live, record a live album using RCA, etc they must go to court and get copyright control of their own music from Warner even though they created it in the first place. Talk about screwed up copyright laws! For example, John Fogerty, the leade singer and guitar player for Creedents Clearwater Revival, left the band in the early 80's to create his own solo career under a different music label.Even though most of the songs in the Creedents Clearwater Revival catalog were written by John Fogerty, created by him, he was not permited to sing, play, or make reference to his prior work since he was under a different music label. Eventually, he turned around and sued the record company and won. However, it wasn't until the mid 90's until he was able to resume copyright control of the Creedents' catalog which is ridiculous since he is the man behind that bands music and fame. Sadly he isn't the only person who got screwed over by a greedy record company. Dianna Ross, the lead singer for the Supremes, also had something of a copyright battle with the record companies for her music. Like John Fogerty she decided to go out on her own, create some new albums under her own name, and found out as long as she wasn't with the Supremes she wasn't legally permitted to sing or play any of the hits from the Supremes catalog. Eventually, around 1987 she battled the record company and ended up assuming copyright control over the Supremes catalog. Music that should have been her's by right in the first place. Go figure. However, the point I want to make is there is a distressing tend for publishers, record companies, and other distributors to assume the copyrights of any works they publish.Even if they don't have full control they usually get some sort of secondary copyright that prevents the author or artist from publishing using some other company which simply isn't fair at all. Cheers! On 6/15/12, dark wrote: The odd thing is, if you go back in time that is not how copywrite started, or what it was intended to do. it was not the protection of the printer or distributor, but of the author, so that nobody could claime credit or financial compensation for his/her work without being the one who actually came up with the idea. I hope the eventual outcome will be a return to that sort of status, where distributors change their focus from actually distributing a product and attemptinng to create demmand for it, but advertizing the author's own work so that people who wish can gain the music, art, literature or whatever directly from them, with compensations made for their work, not for the ownership of a specific copy of it. This is the way that sites like podiobooks and darker projects work, and I've donated cash to those sites myself because I like what they do, and my disagreement with publishers and distributers isn't with the authors of the work originally, indeed if I had my choice, I'd much rather just send money directly to the author for an accessible copy. Indeed, now that things like books can be written and distributed without! the need of printers, publishers etc, I would hope to see these people disappear altogether, or at least take a back seat, only providing physical books and cds to those who want them as semi ornamental items, rather than people just interested in the words or music itself. We'll have to see though, sinse the hole economic status of the world is going to hell in a hand baskit at the moment, thanks to corporate interest in control of nations and too many self interested parties working up massive debts that nobody can actually pay, and I'm fairly certain the next 10 or 15 years will se a major crash of one sort or another. Hopefully people will learn better afterwards, assuming we get through it. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscrip
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi, Oh, really? Like which ones. Generally I've found Eloquence does a decent job of correctly pronouncing words. The more human voices such as the At&T voices or the Realspeak voices tend to have troubles with certain names of things in science fiction books and games. However, that is pretty par for science fiction though. In science fiction it seems authors tend to randomly select letters and string them together or come up with some off the wall name and spell it. What really freaks screen readers and OCR programs out are the words that have an apostrophy in the center of it to split it up into specific Syllables. something like Master C'bouth never comes out right with any synth because it tries to speak it as a single word rather than break it up into separate Syllables such as C bouth. Cheers! On 6/15/12, john wrote: > Heh you've got more than your work cut out scanning that series. > Even the computer threw up over some of those names trying to > read them. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul, Well, there are quite a few blind roll players out there because its fun and for the most part its accessible. The paper and pen versions basically just includes a bunch of young guys and girls sitting around someone's dining room table with some playing dice, a few sheets of paper, and a pen to keep track of their characters skills, stats, and progress in the adventure. One member of the group is selected to be the gamemaster, and he or she tells the story and makes decisions weather or not a certain action is possible according to the core rules of the game. Although, some people regard roll playing a bit geeky or childish I find it very fun. Its a way for adults to get together and pretend for a few hours that they are living in a different world, a different time and place, and allows him/her to assume some roll or character that interests them. Depending on the guild or group some people go as far as dressing up in costumes and play live versions of the game with other guild members. While I have never gone as far as to do the live roll playing in costume myself I've heard of people who have. However, if you think about it its not much different than those Civil War buffs who dress up in Union or Confederate uniforms and run around the countryside pretending to reenact various Civil War battles. In this case you have guys dressed up as knights, magicians, whatever doing the same thing in a fantasy setting.In the case of Star Wars people will dress up as a Jedi, Storm Trooper, Yuuzhan Vong, or whatever their roll is and reenact it out. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > Hi, > > Sorry I hadn't thought of that, I'm so used to scanning everything with OCR > that I totally forgot that just scanning something normally just gives > you > an image of everything rather than text. Which like you said is obviously > what people without any sight problems would do. > > Sounds like a big (and possibly very frustrating) task ahead of you, but I > imagine that it will be worth the while in the end. I'm sure you'll be glad > to have an accessible version and from various lists I seen other people > with sight loss talking about these kind of role play games to so I think > there will be some others that will enjoy and appreciate the work you do on > this once its completed > > Hopefully you find a way of turning off the automatic dictionary , I'm sure > that will make it a little easier, well hopefully anyway. > > All the best --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, I know what you mean, but you and I know the reason. They say money is the root of all evil and I believe it more and more each day. Companies are absolutely ruthless at making sure they are the only one who can profit from someone's work. Cheers! On 6/15/12, dark wrote: > Crazy! and all the more reason I have have no respect for these selfish > bullies. > > beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Well, I don't know about that. It sounds to me like you are making some social stereotypes of your own there. Most people, American people, are generally balanced. They aren't all sci-fi fans, all crime buffs, all sports nuts, etc. Most people seem to like a bit of this and that just like in the U.K. For example, I am not really a big sports fan. I'm not one of those guys who subscribes to ESPN, Fox Sports, or any other all sports channel and watch sports all day, nor do I subscribe to sports magazines, news letters, etc because I'm just not that interested. However, I will watch football during football season and once and a while watch baseball if I'm not doing something else. I would say I have a mild interest in sports as i do watch it, but don't follow every game or keep track of who is leading the division and all that stuff. Now, I am something of a crime buff watch documentaries like American Justice, Cold Case, Crime Stories, as well as read crime thrillers and murder mysteries. My wife isn't much of a crime buff, but will watch Law & Order or CSI if I'm watching it. I suppose she has a mild interest in some crime shows, but I couldn't say she is a crime buff because of that interest in a couple of crime shows. I could mention a lot of other people I know who may have a strong interest in one thing and a mild interest in other topics. I don't know anyone who is a total ssci-fi nerd, or someone who is an absolute sports nut. Most people have interests in a wide range of areas, and don't fix on one thing. Cheers! On 6/14/12, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > yes, I read that artical too. Don't forget as well that t here in the Uk > things are a little less rigid life style wise as in the states. > > What I mean is, my parents aren't big sf buffs, but enjoy doctor who, rather > > the way a friend of mine does rp, computer games, death metal, nihlism and > dune (he is also something of a fan of real world spices too), yet enjoys > cirkcet. > > what I mean is, I know in at least some parts of the states being a "nerd" > or a "jock" or whatever is pretty much a major choice, and one made by only > > a few people in the population, where as in the Uk, people are a little more > > fluid about pass times and such. > > Btw, this isn't to say everyone! in the states falls into one catagory or > another, only that from what I've noticed, social sterriotypes, and people > adhereing to those sorts of rolls are probably a little more common when it > > comes to the hole sf, sport etc thing in the states than in the Uk, meaning > > that here there are probably more people likely to be fans of sf and games > occasionally, even if it is not a main interest. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Thomas, I have a suggestion for you. Have you contacted the publisher of these Star Wars books? In the past, I have made arrangements with publishers of both role-playing game books and computer programming books. In cases where they didn't normally sell electronic copies of their books, they agreed to sell me a copy of the printed book at its normal price. For that price, they would throw in an electronic copy as well. Some publishers have then asked me to sign NDA agreements, essentially certifying that I would not share the electronic materials, and I'm fine with that. And if I'm not interested in the printed book, I can usually find someone local to kick in some money toward the purchase, and they get the printed book and I get the electronic copy. Not all publishers agree to such an idea. But most have, and most have been quite courteous about it. However, if I agree not to share, I will not share, because I want them to be willing to make such arrangements for future purchases. After all, sighted folks would pay for the book, and if I'm going to get a copy I can read, I have no problem paying as well. Just a suggestion of something that has worked for me with great success! Nancy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:00 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Al, I'm talking about the newer d20 Star Wars source books and campaign guides. As you might already know the d20 campaign books and source guides covers the rebel era, the clone wars era, and the New Jedi Order era. I've even heard they are working on releasing a new expansion set for the Old Republic era of books and games. Since I'd like to work with the latest campaign books I'm not bothering with the old West End stuff. Cheers! On 6/14/12, Allan Thompson wrote: > I was just wondering which star wars rules you were talking about. The > old west end games or the d20 star wars. Just out of curiosity and not > much else. I knowt he west end books are no longer in print so I am > not sure if that matters or not. > > al > > > "The truth will set you free" > Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi nancy. Wow! which publishers are these? In the past, all the publishers I've contacted have either utterly ignored me, or setn me a short refusal like wizards of the coast, which is one reason I'm now so sure that they are scumbags! :D. Perhaps it would be good to know which these people are if they provide that sort of service. Beware the grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, I've had good luck with Steve Jackson Games, Atlas Games, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Hogshead Publishing (I think they're a UK group), Murach Books (they're the computer programming folks) and other small press sorts that I can't think of just now. WoTC does ignore us, that's true. Nothing to be done about that except get their books in other ways. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:15 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi nancy. Wow! which publishers are these? In the past, all the publishers I've contacted have either utterly ignored me, or setn me a short refusal like wizards of the coast, which is one reason I'm now so sure that they are scumbags! :D. Perhaps it would be good to know which these people are if they provide that sort of service. Beware the grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Funny you mention steve jaxon, sinse I've been trying to get wizard books to provide accessible version of the original fighting fatnasy novels for years, but they ignore every mail I've sent to them, and there's no other contact method. Perhaps you could make enquiries if your familiar with the publishers? all the best, Dark. - Original Message - From: "Loravara" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, I've had good luck with Steve Jackson Games, Atlas Games, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Hogshead Publishing (I think they're a UK group), Murach Books (they're the computer programming folks) and other small press sorts that I can't think of just now. WoTC does ignore us, that's true. Nothing to be done about that except get their books in other ways. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:15 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi nancy. Wow! which publishers are these? In the past, all the publishers I've contacted have either utterly ignored me, or setn me a short refusal like wizards of the coast, which is one reason I'm now so sure that they are scumbags! :D. Perhaps it would be good to know which these people are if they provide that sort of service. Beware the grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
all sounds good, I guess when it comes down to it it's similar to a computer game in that for the time you play the game you take on that character that you play, but with role play its just more human interaction with I guess more freedom to take the plot the way you want. . plus I like the whole stats and randomness of everything being decided through dice, reminds me of a time in my youth when me and a few friends used to play a a 'games workshop' game called epic, really good fun as it was just a few friends getting together but it is also pretty strategic to so makes you have to think lots about what and how you play. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf of Thomas Ward Sent: 16 June 2012 02:05 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Paul, Well, there are quite a few blind roll players out there because its fun and for the most part its accessible. The paper and pen versions basically just includes a bunch of young guys and girls sitting around someone's dining room table with some playing dice, a few sheets of paper, and a pen to keep track of their characters skills, stats, and progress in the adventure. One member of the group is selected to be the gamemaster, and he or she tells the story and makes decisions weather or not a certain action is possible according to the core rules of the game. Although, some people regard roll playing a bit geeky or childish I find it very fun. Its a way for adults to get together and pretend for a few hours that they are living in a different world, a different time and place, and allows him/her to assume some roll or character that interests them. Depending on the guild or group some people go as far as dressing up in costumes and play live versions of the game with other guild members. While I have never gone as far as to do the live roll playing in costume myself I've heard of people who have. However, if you think about it its not much different than those Civil War buffs who dress up in Union or Confederate uniforms and run around the countryside pretending to reenact various Civil War battles. In this case you have guys dressed up as knights, magicians, whatever doing the same thing in a fantasy setting.In the case of Star Wars people will dress up as a Jedi, Storm Trooper, Yuuzhan Vong, or whatever their roll is and reenact it out. Cheers! On 6/15/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > Hi, > > Sorry I hadn't thought of that, I'm so used to scanning everything with OCR > that I totally forgot that just scanning something normally just gives > you > an image of everything rather than text. Which like you said is obviously > what people without any sight problems would do. > > Sounds like a big (and possibly very frustrating) task ahead of you, but I > imagine that it will be worth the while in the end. I'm sure you'll be glad > to have an accessible version and from various lists I seen other people > with sight loss talking about these kind of role play games to so I think > there will be some others that will enjoy and appreciate the work you do on > this once its completed > > Hopefully you find a way of turning off the automatic dictionary , I'm sure > that will make it a little easier, well hopefully anyway. > > All the best --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul. Well not everything! is decided by dice, indeed the better games I've played are the ones were dice are a guide rather than being the strict rules. It's odd though, I don't enjoy in character rp in online games, but I love doing it off line with a human gm. I think it's because a human gm is as adaptable as you are, and can run a plot with your characters at the center. for instance, each week I play a game of Mutants and masterminds, a superhero themed game. my character uses a battle suit similar to Iron man, but has the distadvantage of not knowing anything about it, indeed he's a professional pianist. So there is repeated bickering betwene him and the suit's ai (played by the gm), with the gm occasionally doing things including developing powers that are quite unexpected. This is something that just wouldn't be possible online, but off line works great, especially as the plot has involved my character finding out more and more about his suit. What's also fun, is the plot is adaptive. For instance, we went to the alternative evil dimention and fought off our evil duplicate selves. Sinse however for various confusing reasons my character is the only true and natural born human, mine was the only evil duplicate not to be banished, sent to hell or otherwise got rid off, sinse once out of his suit he was pretty easy to deal with. This back fired though sinse he's now come to normal earth, stolen a spare copy of a suit in the same series to mine, and is threatening to enact a ritual to make himself into a god. fights are also great fun, sinse it's not just a matter of swing and hit, but often a matter of how much we can literally out think our opponents. For example, on one occasion we were fighting enemies who protected themselves with a large domed force field. At first, we started firing lasers through the field, but then they modified it to be impervious to energy as well as physical attacks. so, my character flew into the air on his jets and slammed into the ground, coming up under the bottom of the domed field, where I proceeded to use my explosive weapon (the field also limited the blast). that's the sort of thingI find fun in an rp fight, thinking adaptively, and something which you really couldn't do without an actual human gm playing the enemies. Of course, rp is like antyhing else, and really good when done well, but not so great when done badly, and played by a rules lawyer or someone who has no sense of plot or drama. But, i do appreciate it when it's done properly, and would highly recommend finding a group and giving it a go, not the least because all you need is something to write your character sheet on, some way of rolling dice, (I use a laptop, ms word and the gma dice program), and your imagination, and optionally a copy of the rules, though I've certainly played games where I found the rules from other players as I went along, rather than knowing them before hand, because when done well in rp the rules and the dice should serve the plot, not be the be all and end all of the game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Now that sounds like a seriously fun and interesting game. I see the point you make about the difference between the computer game and the role play though as I guess with the computer game although there is an element of freedom in some games you still ultimately have to follow the path/story line set out by the game but with the role play you can bend the story to fit around the players and like the game you mentioned with some creative thinking and a good imagination can make. For a very interesting game. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 16 June 2012 14:13 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Paul. Well not everything! is decided by dice, indeed the better games I've played are the ones were dice are a guide rather than being the strict rules. It's odd though, I don't enjoy in character rp in online games, but I love doing it off line with a human gm. I think it's because a human gm is as adaptable as you are, and can run a plot with your characters at the center. for instance, each week I play a game of Mutants and masterminds, a superhero themed game. my character uses a battle suit similar to Iron man, but has the distadvantage of not knowing anything about it, indeed he's a professional pianist. So there is repeated bickering betwene him and the suit's ai (played by the gm), with the gm occasionally doing things including developing powers that are quite unexpected. This is something that just wouldn't be possible online, but off line works great, especially as the plot has involved my character finding out more and more about his suit. What's also fun, is the plot is adaptive. For instance, we went to the alternative evil dimention and fought off our evil duplicate selves. Sinse however for various confusing reasons my character is the only true and natural born human, mine was the only evil duplicate not to be banished, sent to hell or otherwise got rid off, sinse once out of his suit he was pretty easy to deal with. This back fired though sinse he's now come to normal earth, stolen a spare copy of a suit in the same series to mine, and is threatening to enact a ritual to make himself into a god. fights are also great fun, sinse it's not just a matter of swing and hit, but often a matter of how much we can literally out think our opponents. For example, on one occasion we were fighting enemies who protected themselves with a large domed force field. At first, we started firing lasers through the field, but then they modified it to be impervious to energy as well as physical attacks. so, my character flew into the air on his jets and slammed into the ground, coming up under the bottom of the domed field, where I proceeded to use my explosive weapon (the field also limited the blast). that's the sort of thingI find fun in an rp fight, thinking adaptively, and something which you really couldn't do without an actual human gm playing the enemies. Of course, rp is like antyhing else, and really good when done well, but not so great when done badly, and played by a rules lawyer or someone who has no sense of plot or drama. But, i do appreciate it when it's done properly, and would highly recommend finding a group and giving it a go, not the least because all you need is something to write your character sheet on, some way of rolling dice, (I use a laptop, ms word and the gma dice program), and your imagination, and optionally a copy of the rules, though I've certainly played games where I found the rules from other players as I went along, rather than knowing them before hand, because when done well in rp the rules and the dice should serve the plot, not be the be all and end all of the game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Nancy, Well, I haven't contacted Wizard's of the Coast myself, but apparently Dark has regarding some Dungeons and Dragons material and got the brush off. I have no idea if Wizards of the Coast would be any more helpful to me or not. Especially, since I've already purchased the books several years ago, and I'm not about to repurchase the books on the off chance they might e-mail me an electronic copy. My guess is they would want some proof of purchase such as sales receipts before considering sending me electronic copies and as I bought them back about eight, nine, or ten years ago I obviously don't have any documentation or proof I purchased the books other than the books themselves. So I have know idea how to resolve that problem. Cheers! On 6/16/12, Loravara wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I have a suggestion for you. Have you contacted the publisher of these Star > Wars books? In the past, I have made arrangements with publishers of both > role-playing game books and computer programming books. In cases where > they > didn't normally sell electronic copies of their books, they agreed to sell > me a copy of the printed book at its normal price. For that price, they > would throw in an electronic copy as well. Some publishers have then asked > me to sign NDA agreements, essentially certifying that I would not share > the > electronic materials, and I'm fine with that. > > And if I'm not interested in the printed book, I can usually find someone > local to kick in some money toward the purchase, and they get the printed > book and I get the electronic copy. > > Not all publishers agree to such an idea. But most have, and most have been > quite courteous about it. > > However, if I agree not to share, I will not share, because I want them to > be willing to make such arrangements for future purchases. After all, > sighted folks would pay for the book, and if I'm going to get a copy I can > read, I have no problem paying as well. > > Just a suggestion of something that has worked for me with great success! > > Nancy > > > -Original Message- > From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On > Behalf Of Thomas Ward > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:00 PM > To: Gamers Discussion list > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books > > Hi Al, > > I'm talking about the newer d20 Star Wars source books and campaign guides. > As you might already know the d20 campaign books and source guides covers > the rebel era, the clone wars era, and the New Jedi Order era. I've even > heard they are working on releasing a new expansion set for the Old > Republic > era of books and games. Since I'd like to work with the latest campaign > books I'm not bothering with the old West End stuff. > > Cheers! > > On 6/14/12, Allan Thompson wrote: >> I was just wondering which star wars rules you were talking about. The >> old west end games or the d20 star wars. Just out of curiosity and not >> much else. I knowt he west end books are no longer in print so I am >> not sure if that matters or not. >> >> al >> >> >> "The truth will set you free" >> Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, > send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul, Exactly. Triditional computer games are fixed to a certain story line,are often fixed to specific characters, and is only as flexable as the developer made it. Therefore often times you will find yourself stuck in a fairly linear game where you complete x numbers of levels, fight the mmain boss, and the game is over with. With a roll playing game it is far more open ended. I might go as far to say it is nearly endless, unlimited, in what you can and can't do in the game. All it requires is a good gamemaster, gm, who is good at coming up with new ideas for adventures, situations, etc and allows the group to play out a campaign for weeks, months, and even years with the same characters. Its only limited by the imagination of the gamemaster and his/her group members. For example, during the 1990's Lucas Arts released an FPS game called Jedi Knight. One of its selling points was it was suppose to include some RPG game mechanics. While it did have some RPG game mechanics the truth was it was still rather limited in a lot of ways. One of the ways it was limited is number of light side verses dark side encounters. One of the ways it was limited is how the game story changed depending on if you decided to play as a light side Jedi or dark side Sith. Throughout the game there were a number of civilians, encounters, who were in some sort of trouble. If you rescued him/her you would gain light side experience points. If you ignored them your alignment would switch from good to neutral which didn't give you any light side or dark side points.If you chose to kill them or injure them you would gain dark side points and your alignment would eventually become evil. After you gained x number of dark side points you could select a dark side power such as force lightning and train it up to sith master. The odd thing is that Kiles associates like Jan, who shows up to help him out of certain situations, doesn' seem to care if Kile is on the light side or dark side. Its simply business as usual. The problem with this design was that it didn't really change the course of the story nor the attitudes of the non-player characters. The only major difference was when Kile took on the Sith he could throw force lightning, use force choke, and other dark side powers at them. If Kile won the game there was a little cutscene where Kile becomes the new Dark Lord of the Sith.Otherwise he doesn't have or use those powers and you get a different cutscene where Kile beats the Sith and then decides to leave the Jedi Order. Were this a paper and pen version of the game the gamemaster could step in at any time of the story and begin altering events around what the player does. If Kile goes over to the dark side the gamemaster would not only change his alignment to evil, but might work up a new plot where he joins the Sith instead of sleying them. Perhaps the player might be given the choice to sley the Sith or join them in their plans. Kile could attack Jan and other allies if he chose, and might gain extra dark side experience points for killing his former friends. He might pretend to join Jeric and the other Sith only to sley them at a later point getting more dark side points for deceit and betrayal which are both dark side skills. Bottom line, in a true roll playing game the gamemaster could and would step in to alter the story as needed which would be different than the way some other gamemaster and group might play that same adventure. While there are adventure guides etc there is no rule saying that a gamemaster and group has to follow the script exactly and can change it as desired. Make sense? Cheers! On 6/16/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > Now that sounds like a seriously fun and interesting game. I see the point > you make about the difference between the computer game and the role play > though as I guess with the computer game although there is an element of > freedom in some games you still ultimately have to follow the path/story > line set out by the game but with the role play you can bend the story to > fit around the players and like the game you mentioned with some creative > thinking and a good imagination can make. For a very interesting game. > > -Original Message- > From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On > Behalf Of dark > Sent: 16 June 2012 14:13 > To: Gamers Discussion list > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books > > Hi Paul. > > Well not everything! is decided by dice, indeed the better games I've > played > > are the ones were dice are a guide rather than being the strict rules. It's > > odd though, I don't enjoy in character rp in online games, but I love doing > > it off line with a human gm. > > I think it's because a human gm is as adaptable as you are, and can run a > plot with your characters at the ce
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Definitely agree with that. A human gm, if he or she is good, will adapt the plot to fit the situation far more than any computer can. Often times battles is simply trying to out think the gamemaster who is playing the villains and you the heroes. For example, I remember one summer where some friends and I were playing the Marvel Super Heroes game. I decided for whatever reason to be Captain America. Since I didn't know his character well I made lots of mistakes the gamemaster caught and managed to work into the storyline on the spot. Well, as most Captain America fans remember when he throws his shield it will hit an enemy etc and then will come back like a boomerang.I knew this from the comics but often kept forgetting this fact while playing because I was trying to think of some strategy or other to block or evade the enemies attack. So, anyway,here I am locked in battle with several enemy villains. I decided to throw my shield and knock out one of the enemies. I roll the dice and I missed. the gamemaster comes back and the enemy attacks me. Like a dummy I decide to jump out of the way. My skill check succeeds, I evade, and then the gm says, "your shield tries to return to you, flies over your head, and lands on the ground 10 feet away." That was obviously a mistake on my part. In hindsight what I should have done is try to catch the returning shield, block the attack, and since I know the skill check succeeded I would have gotten my shield and blocked the attack in a single turn.Instead I chose to evade the attack, and had to spend the next few turns trying to get back to my shield which some villain picks up and I had to go kick his butt for it. My point being is the gm picked up on my mistake, worked it into the storyline, and then made me fight for that shield if I wanted it back. In short, the gm out thought me making it more and more difficult to win based on my mistakes. A computer game just isn't that flexible or smart, because every single possibility has to be coded into its A.I. which isn't possible. Cheers! On 6/16/12, dark wrote: > Hi Paul. > > Well not everything! is decided by dice, indeed the better games I've played > > are the ones were dice are a guide rather than being the strict rules. It's > > odd though, I don't enjoy in character rp in online games, but I love doing > > it off line with a human gm. > > I think it's because a human gm is as adaptable as you are, and can run a > plot with your characters at the center. > > for instance, each week I play a game of Mutants and masterminds, a > superhero themed game. my character uses a battle suit similar to Iron man, > > but has the distadvantage of not knowing anything about it, indeed he's > > a professional pianist. So there is repeated bickering betwene him and the > suit's ai (played by the gm), with the gm occasionally doing things > including developing powers that are quite unexpected. > > This is something that just wouldn't be possible online, but off line works > > great, especially as the plot has involved my character finding out more and > > more about his suit. > > What's also fun, is the plot is adaptive. For instance, we went to the > alternative evil dimention and fought off our evil duplicate selves. Sinse > however for various confusing reasons my character is the only true and > natural born human, mine was the only evil duplicate not to be banished, > sent to hell or otherwise got rid off, sinse once out of his suit he was > pretty easy to deal with. > > This back fired though sinse he's now come to normal earth, stolen a spare > copy of a suit in the same series to mine, and is threatening to enact a > ritual to make himself into a god. > > fights are also great fun, sinse it's not just a matter of swing and hit, > but often a matter of how much we can literally out think our opponents. > > For example, on one occasion we were fighting enemies who protected > themselves with a large domed force field. At first, we started firing > lasers through the field, but then they modified it to be impervious to > energy as well as physical attacks. so, my character flew into the air on > his jets and slammed into the ground, coming up under the bottom of the > domed field, where I proceeded to use my explosive weapon (the field > also limited the blast). > > that's the sort of thingI find fun in an rp fight, thinking adaptively, and > > something which you really couldn't do without an actual human gm playing > the enemies. > > Of course, rp is like antyhing else, and really good when done well, but not > > so great when done badly, and played by a rules lawyer or someone who has no > > sense of plot or drama. > > But, i do appreciate it when it's done properly, and would highly recommend > > finding a group and giving it a go, not the least because all you need > > is something to write your character sheet on, some way of rolling dice, (I > > use a laptop, ms word and the gma dice pro
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul, Well, like Dark said not everything is decided through dice. It helps randomize things, decide things such as skill checks,but for the most part the gamemaster holds sway over the story, battles, and other game mechanics based on his understanding of the game and the characters you are attempting to play. For instance, what if you are playing a character and you encounter some barrier like a chasm. You might suggest flying over it. However, the gamemaster, based on his understanding of your character's abilities, might inform you your player can't fly. He or she may inquire how you intend to fly. If you are in some mediaeval setting such as Dungeons and Dragons suggesting you find an airplane or jet will not qualify since that technology doesn't exist in the world. If you mention building a glider the gm may decide that is an acceptable option and will allow you to use it to fly over the chasm. This is a case where merely rolling dice can't decide anything and the gamemaster has the final say on what tech is allowed or not allowed to carry out some feat or task. Cheers! On 6/16/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > all sounds good, I guess when it comes down to it it's similar to a > computer game in that for the time you play the game you take on that > character that you play, but with role play its just more human > interaction > with I guess more freedom to take the plot the way you want. . plus I like > the whole stats and randomness of everything being decided through dice, > reminds me of a time in my youth when me and a few friends used to play a a > 'games workshop' game called epic, really good fun as it was just a few > friends getting together but it is also pretty strategic to so makes you > have to think lots about what and how you play. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi tom. That is a good example of what I mean, and indeed often in our mutants game the gm has great fun taking advantage of our mistakes, and indeed has enemies who incorporate this into their tactics. For example, on one occasion we were fighting the main villain of the campaigne, an evil person in magically powered armor called Lord tyranus, while on a plane. In one turn, he grabbed one of our group who can't fly (the one person who can't), and chucked ihim out of the plane. Sinse my character has powered jets on his suit that instantly activate, (and also sinse he has that sort of personality), I dived out of the window after him. However, Tyranus took another action and fired a ray at my character he prepared which temporarily disabled my suit. Another of our party who is the avatar of an ancient sungod was able to create a platform of light for us to land on, but this left tyranus the time to make an escape. It's actually odd. Superheroes generally aren't at the top of my preferd genre list, I don't know why, but spiderman, justice league, the avengers etc have never really appealed to me in their style or plot. But I have really enjoyed the superhero tabletop game, precisely because! of the freedom involved in what our characters do and how they advance. I also appreciate the fact that our gm also takes us to various alternative dimentions, for instance right at the moment we're in the fairy realm of arcadia trying to retrieve the holy graillle, so that cammalot can maintain balance betwene the summer and winter courts, sinse if it loses balance all hell will break loose on earth. I don't think I'd fancy playing a preexisting character such as captain America, even in settingI'm very familiar with such as middle earth or doctor who, sinse I think I'd probably want to design my characters' history myself, as well as their abilities, powers, plot etc, and pick something I could play successfully, though this is of course a personal choice thing. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
To be honest I'd see the diceas simply a way of limiting your characters' abilities, and also adding an element of chance into the game. To take tom's glider example. If your character was a barbarian from the frozen wastes, it might be that she doesn't really have the manual skill or indeed knolidge to build a glider, where as if your character was a mage who spent his time building magic devices, well even though a glider isn't a magic device he will at least be more familiar with engineering principles. The gm would probably ask your character to roll some stats, say their intelligence, and based on that roll decide how good the glider was. Then, when you fly across the chasm, the gm would probably roll some more checks against the glider, and obviously a better designed glider will have more chance of making the checks, but even a well designed glider might be unlucky. Of course though, sinse your characters are part of the plot, the gm might not actually want to perminantly kill you for such a mistake, so if your glider breaks, the gm might have you fall down the chasm and land on a ledge, but then, you'd be injured, and stuck halfway up a chasm with no way off. Or, if it is a fantasy game, perhaps you do actually die, and then need to talk to someone like hades about being returned to the land of the living. Of course, some gm's might just say your dead and that's the end as well, but again, it'd all depend upon what sort of plot the gm is making. One of the best uses of dice mechanics I've actually seen recently was when our party was involved in a traditional jousting tournament a few days ago. My character, sinse he can only really fight within his armor, wasn't participating, but offered to act as herald, introducing our party members who were fighting and getting the crowd on their side. The heralding basically worked by me and the other herald comparing some diplomacy skill checks, with whoever won imparting a bonus to their knight. I was able to improve my roll depending upon how well I was able to speak, and how convincing I was according to the circumstances. For instance, in one fight, one of our party who is actually the earthly encarnation of an angel was fighting a very lissivious knight who very obviously liked the ladies a bit much. I then played up the part about knightly virtues, with a bit of an emphasis on chastity! which of course, sinse it was according to the circumstances gave me far more of a bonus, and in turn gave our party member more of a bonus as well. that's the sort of thing I mean about dice mechanics, that they are used to enhance the actual plot, and defign what your characters can and cannot do, rather than just being something you continually follow. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi dark and Thomas, Thanks for all the info,, sounds really good fun and defintley sounds a lot more indepth than a computer game could be with the added advantage that you/the GM can take the game the way you want. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 17 June 2012 02:26 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Paul, Exactly. Triditional computer games are fixed to a certain story line,are often fixed to specific characters, and is only as flexable as the developer made it. Therefore often times you will find yourself stuck in a fairly linear game where you complete x numbers of levels, fight the mmain boss, and the game is over with. With a roll playing game it is far more open ended. I might go as far to say it is nearly endless, unlimited, in what you can and can't do in the game. All it requires is a good gamemaster, gm, who is good at coming up with new ideas for adventures, situations, etc and allows the group to play out a campaign for weeks, months, and even years with the same characters. Its only limited by the imagination of the gamemaster and his/her group members. For example, during the 1990's Lucas Arts released an FPS game called Jedi Knight. One of its selling points was it was suppose to include some RPG game mechanics. While it did have some RPG game mechanics the truth was it was still rather limited in a lot of ways. One of the ways it was limited is number of light side verses dark side encounters. One of the ways it was limited is how the game story changed depending on if you decided to play as a light side Jedi or dark side Sith. Throughout the game there were a number of civilians, encounters, who were in some sort of trouble. If you rescued him/her you would gain light side experience points. If you ignored them your alignment would switch from good to neutral which didn't give you any light side or dark side points.If you chose to kill them or injure them you would gain dark side points and your alignment would eventually become evil. After you gained x number of dark side points you could select a dark side power such as force lightning and train it up to sith master. The odd thing is that Kiles associates like Jan, who shows up to help him out of certain situations, doesn' seem to care if Kile is on the light side or dark side. Its simply business as usual. The problem with this design was that it didn't really change the course of the story nor the attitudes of the non-player characters. The only major difference was when Kile took on the Sith he could throw force lightning, use force choke, and other dark side powers at them. If Kile won the game there was a little cutscene where Kile becomes the new Dark Lord of the Sith.Otherwise he doesn't have or use those powers and you get a different cutscene where Kile beats the Sith and then decides to leave the Jedi Order. Were this a paper and pen version of the game the gamemaster could step in at any time of the story and begin altering events around what the player does. If Kile goes over to the dark side the gamemaster would not only change his alignment to evil, but might work up a new plot where he joins the Sith instead of sleying them. Perhaps the player might be given the choice to sley the Sith or join them in their plans. Kile could attack Jan and other allies if he chose, and might gain extra dark side experience points for killing his former friends. He might pretend to join Jeric and the other Sith only to sley them at a later point getting more dark side points for deceit and betrayal which are both dark side skills. Bottom line, in a true roll playing game the gamemaster could and would step in to alter the story as needed which would be different than the way some other gamemaster and group might play that same adventure. While there are adventure guides etc there is no rule saying that a gamemaster and group has to follow the script exactly and can change it as desired. Make sense? Cheers! On 6/16/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > Now that sounds like a seriously fun and interesting game. I see the point > you make about the difference between the computer game and the role play > though as I guess with the computer game although there is an element of > freedom in some games you still ultimately have to follow the path/story > line set out by the game but with the role play you can bend the story to > fit around the players and like the game you mentioned with some creative > thinking and a good imagination can make. For a very interesting game. > > -Original Message- > From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On > Behalf Of dark > Sent: 16 June 2012 14:13 > To: Gamers Discussion list > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books > > Hi P
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Well, I sometimes like playing a cannon character in tabletop RPG, and other times I like striking out on my own and creating my own unique character. That is perhaps one of the best features of roll playing games. You have the freedom to use an existing character or you can totally create your own from scratch. You have the freedom to be whoever and whatever you want to be during the game. That said, I think a lot of people prefer playing an existing cannon character because they either identify with that character in some way, or they simply aren't interested in creating their own unique character for reason x. As you know creating a custom character from scratch with his or her own personality, morality, stats, and back story is a pretty involved task. Therefore someone new to roll playing might want to just pick a character they know and begin playing rather than spend the time creating their own. Either that or there is some existing character they really like. For example, back in college for our weekly Star Wars roll playing games I decided I wanted to play the roll of Mara Jade. There were two reasons I decided to pick that particular character. First, she was trained as an Imperial assassin by the Emperor, and comes with a lot of useful combat skills with hand blasters, blaster rifles, explosives,starfighter pilot, etc. Second, although Mara was initially introduced into the Star Wars universe as a villain she actually is a very moral character with a very strong sense of right and wrong, a code of ethics, and will always do what she thinks is right according to her own moral code. Finally, in the books, games, etc Mara doesn't have many close friends but those she does have she is very loyal to. She's the kind of person you want watching your back if she's an ally, but don't turn your back on her if she's your enemy. Just the kind of person who comes in handy in any party of New Republic Star Wars heroes. Unfortunately, I left college before the New Jedi Order campaigns etc were released and she now has a completely updated skill set compared to the New Republic era campaigns so I never got to play her character in any New Jedi Order campaigns. Besides the fact she is now married to Luke Skywalker she is a full fledged Jedi Master with all the skills and advantages that implies. Perhaps more so because she obviously retains normal non-Jedi skills too from her years as an Imperial assassin. One of the new skills that would come in handy in a New Jedi Order campaign is Mara's force bubble. So far as I know she is the only Jedi Master known to have this particular force skill and its a pretty useful one. Throughout the books Mara has used it a few times to good effect. In book four of the New Jedi Order Mara and Jaina are chasing Nom Anor through some underground tunnels trying to capture him. He ends up escaping by collapsing the tunnel on Mara and Jaina. However, before they are crushed Mara casts a force bubble around herself and Jaina and manage to keep the tunnel from collapsing until help arrives. In the Legacy of the Force saga the authors expand the capabilities of Mara's force bubble. Not only can she use the force bubble to protect herself from harm she can use it to hover or airwalk several feet off the ground. She can use it to keep body heat inside to fool heat sensors. She can use it to create a bubble of air so she can spacewalk without a spacesuit or swim under water for a limited amount of time. In other words its a darn useful skill for any RPG adventure and may help explain why she holds the rank of Jedi Master second only to Luke Skywalker. The other skill of note is because she is married to Luke they have a special relationship that allows them to battle meld through the force. Several times in the New Jedi Order books when Luke and Mara are flying in their X-Wings the author mentions that Luke and Mara are able to double team a Yuuzhan Vong ship through their force bond. One will fire at one part of the ship and the other will fire at the ship somewhere else overwhelming the ships defenses because Yuuzhan Vong bio technology can't defend against shots from two different places at the exact same time. Therefore force battle melding is one way of timing attacks so that more than one Jedi can attack the same target and overwhelm its defenses. Anyway, to get back to the point, there are certain existing characters I like that I'd enjoy roll playing as just for the experience of pretending to be that person. I have read lots of the Star Wars books and am familiar with many of the aspects of the cannon and expanded universe characters so could probably be true to his or her roll in the game.However, that might only apply to certain eras or time periods of the Star Wars universe and not others. What I mean by that is over the last few years Lucas Arts, Wizards of the Coast, and of course various authors now have been focusing on the Old Republic era about 3500 y
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Right. The dice are basically there to enhance the plot of the game and to put in some realistic skill checks so your character can and can't do certain things. Even the most powerful characters have to have limitations and/or run into a bit of bad luck sometimes. The dice can help determine how successful a certain task is. For example, let's imagine a battle between Master Yoda and the Emperor like in Revenge of the Sith. In the movie Palpatine bests Yoda, but that was only because Lucas had to be in keeping with the plot of the original series. However, in reality both Palpatine and Yoda are probably equally matched both being masters of the force and if memory serves me the skill sets are about the same as far as the roll playing games are concerned. In any case there is a scene in the movie where Palpatine catches Yoda off guard, hits him with a lightning bolt, and Yoda is knocked clear across the room like a rag doll. In an a roll playing game the gamemaster who is probably controlling Palpatine might roll the dice to see how successful his lightning attack is and the player playing Yoda can throw a saving roll to minimize the damage or deflect the attack altogether. He might block the lightning bolt with his light saber, use the force to create a barrier between himself and the lightning, or try to hurl an object such as a statue in the lightning's path deflecting it. If he uses an object like a statue it might block the lightning but a good gm might say the statue explodes and Yoda ends up taking some damage from getting hit by pieces of the statue when it explodes. Therefore the dice only partly determines what does and does not happen, but the gm really has the final say what actually happens between rolls. Cheers@! On 6/17/12, dark wrote: > To be honest I'd see the diceas simply a way of limiting your characters' > abilities, and also adding an element of chance into the game. > > To take tom's glider example. If your character was a barbarian from the > frozen wastes, it might be that she doesn't really have the manual skill or > > indeed knolidge to build a glider, where as if your character was a mage who > > spent his time building magic devices, well even though a glider isn't > > a magic device he will at least be more familiar with engineering > principles. > > The gm would probably ask your character to roll some stats, say their > intelligence, and based on that roll decide how good the glider was. Then, > when you fly across the chasm, the gm would probably roll some more checks > against the glider, and obviously a better designed glider will have more > chance of making the checks, but even a well designed glider might be > unlucky. > > Of course though, sinse your characters are part of the plot, the gm might > not actually want to perminantly kill you for such a mistake, so if your > glider breaks, the gm might have you fall down the chasm and land on a > ledge, but then, you'd be injured, and stuck halfway up a chasm with no way > > off. Or, if it is a fantasy game, perhaps you do actually die, and then need > > to talk to someone like hades about being returned to the land of the > living. > > Of course, some gm's might just say your dead and that's the end as well, > but again, it'd all depend upon what sort of plot the gm is making. > > One of the best uses of dice mechanics I've actually seen recently was when > > our party was involved in a traditional jousting tournament a few days ago. > > My character, sinse he can only really fight within his armor, wasn't > participating, but offered to act as herald, introducing our party members > who were fighting and getting the crowd on their side. > > The heralding basically worked by me and the other herald comparing some > diplomacy skill checks, with whoever won imparting a bonus to their knight. > > I was able to improve my roll depending upon how well I was able to speak, > and how convincing I was according to the circumstances. > > For instance, in one fight, one of our party who is actually the earthly > encarnation of an angel was fighting a very lissivious knight who very > obviously liked the ladies a bit much. > > I then played up the part about knightly virtues, with a bit of an emphasis > > on chastity! which of course, sinse it was according to the circumstances > gave me far more of a bonus, and in turn gave our party member more of a > bonus as well. > > that's the sort of thing I mean about dice mechanics, that they are used to > > enhance the actual plot, and defign what your characters can and cannot do, > > rather than just being something you continually follow. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
This is a huge topic, and I'm skipping a lot of messages. I want to admit that and apologize. First, people are greedy, and the more they get, the greedier they get. It's a version of the old saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." That's why these distributors make money, and want to keep making money, off the work of creative persons. As for roleplaying, there's all sorts. A pen-and-paper roleplay is what led to muds today. Essentially, the game or dungeon master is the server and the players are clients. The clients tell the server what they want to happen with their character, and the server tells the client what happens or that what they want to happen is invalid. it's a good bit more flexible though, because the only timing you have to worry about is the patience of your friends as you figure out what to do, for the most part. It's also pretty cheap and requires very little in the way of stuff to roleplay. I've done a bit of live roleplay when it comes to combat, and by that I mean acting it out. It feels a lot different to hold a sword, metal or wood, either works, in your hand and lock blades, even slowly, with an enemy rather than to say "I want to swing my sword at them." but that's mostly for modeling purposes. I've never costumed up. still, I've heard it can be fun. As for the legality of distributing these books, I say this: If you distribute them for free, you are actually being illegal. If you distribute for proffit, you are being super illegal. If you distribute them for free but with a password, it doesn't really cover your butt any, because it's just making the illegality exclusive and if you get into trouble, the powers that be know exactly who should get into trouble alongside of you rather than just assuming that anyone and everyone downloaded them. If you want the rats to go down with the ship, put a password on it. Otherwise, let it be. However, one legal way of distributing the books is to force everyone to buy the books. Hell, just get them from a used book agent like a local shop or amazon. Then once the person has the books, they can e-mail you, Tom, and say they have them and you can give them the archive. What they do with it from there is their own concern. Summary. The user buys the books somewhere cheap. They give Tom the info saying they bought the books. Tom gives them the archive as a backup. Legal, completely fine, and no issue. If you don't care to do all that, just distribute them. If it doesn't look suspicious, it won't get noticed. That's my two cents. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 6/17/12, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi Dark, > > Right. The dice are basically there to enhance the plot of the game > and to put in some realistic skill checks so your character can and > can't do certain things. Even the most powerful characters have to > have limitations and/or run into a bit of bad luck sometimes. The dice > can help determine how successful a certain task is. > > For example, let's imagine a battle between Master Yoda and the > Emperor like in Revenge of the Sith. In the movie Palpatine bests > Yoda, but that was only because Lucas had to be in keeping with the > plot of the original series. However, in reality both Palpatine and > Yoda are probably equally matched both being masters of the force and > if memory serves me the skill sets are about the same as far as the > roll playing games are concerned. > > In any case there is a scene in the movie where Palpatine catches Yoda > off guard, hits him with a lightning bolt, and Yoda is knocked clear > across the room like a rag doll. In an a roll playing game the > gamemaster who is probably controlling Palpatine might roll the dice > to see how successful his lightning attack is and the player playing > Yoda can throw a saving roll to minimize the damage or deflect the > attack altogether. He might block the lightning bolt with his light > saber, use the force to create a barrier between himself and the > lightning, or try to hurl an object such as a statue in the > lightning's path deflecting it. If he uses an object like a statue it > might block the lightning but a good gm might say the statue explodes > and Yoda ends up taking some damage from getting hit by pieces of the > statue when it explodes. Therefore the dice only partly determines > what does and does not happen, but the gm really has the final say > what actually happens between rolls. > > Cheers@! > > > On 6/17/12, dark wrote: >> To be honest I'd see the diceas simply a way of limiting your characters' >> abilities, and also adding an element of chance into the game. >> >> To take tom's glider example. If your character was a barbarian from the >> frozen wastes, it might be that she doesn't really have the manual skill >> or >> >> indeed knolidge to build a glider, where as if your character was a mage >> who >> >> spent his time building magic devices, well even though a glider >> isn't >> >> a magic device he will at lea
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dakotah I like the idea of only giving it out to people that all ready have a copy. This comes back to the point I made about torrent/file sharing sites as this is how they get round it by having some disclaimer on the site explaining that the files are only to be downloaded if the person downloading has the original and is just creating a backup. This in mind if the books are put onto thomas's site with the express intention of being an accessible version for the blind who already own the paper copy could there just be some tick box that someone has to select before they download to say they own the original and they are blind and just wanted an accessible version. Then it is the responsibility of the person downloading the file to ensure they either have or obtain the original version to. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Dakotah Rickard Sent: 17 June 2012 20:03 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books This is a huge topic, and I'm skipping a lot of messages. I want to admit that and apologize. First, people are greedy, and the more they get, the greedier they get. It's a version of the old saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." That's why these distributors make money, and want to keep making money, off the work of creative persons. As for roleplaying, there's all sorts. A pen-and-paper roleplay is what led to muds today. Essentially, the game or dungeon master is the server and the players are clients. The clients tell the server what they want to happen with their character, and the server tells the client what happens or that what they want to happen is invalid. it's a good bit more flexible though, because the only timing you have to worry about is the patience of your friends as you figure out what to do, for the most part. It's also pretty cheap and requires very little in the way of stuff to roleplay. I've done a bit of live roleplay when it comes to combat, and by that I mean acting it out. It feels a lot different to hold a sword, metal or wood, either works, in your hand and lock blades, even slowly, with an enemy rather than to say "I want to swing my sword at them." but that's mostly for modeling purposes. I've never costumed up. still, I've heard it can be fun. As for the legality of distributing these books, I say this: If you distribute them for free, you are actually being illegal. If you distribute for proffit, you are being super illegal. If you distribute them for free but with a password, it doesn't really cover your butt any, because it's just making the illegality exclusive and if you get into trouble, the powers that be know exactly who should get into trouble alongside of you rather than just assuming that anyone and everyone downloaded them. If you want the rats to go down with the ship, put a password on it. Otherwise, let it be. However, one legal way of distributing the books is to force everyone to buy the books. Hell, just get them from a used book agent like a local shop or amazon. Then once the person has the books, they can e-mail you, Tom, and say they have them and you can give them the archive. What they do with it from there is their own concern. Summary. The user buys the books somewhere cheap. They give Tom the info saying they bought the books. Tom gives them the archive as a backup. Legal, completely fine, and no issue. If you don't care to do all that, just distribute them. If it doesn't look suspicious, it won't get noticed. That's my two cents. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 6/17/12, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi Dark, > > Right. The dice are basically there to enhance the plot of the game > and to put in some realistic skill checks so your character can and > can't do certain things. Even the most powerful characters have to > have limitations and/or run into a bit of bad luck sometimes. The dice > can help determine how successful a certain task is. > > For example, let's imagine a battle between Master Yoda and the > Emperor like in Revenge of the Sith. In the movie Palpatine bests > Yoda, but that was only because Lucas had to be in keeping with the > plot of the original series. However, in reality both Palpatine and > Yoda are probably equally matched both being masters of the force and > if memory serves me the skill sets are about the same as far as the > roll playing games are concerned. > > In any case there is a scene in the movie where Palpatine catches Yoda > off guard, hits him with a lightning bolt, and Yoda is knocked clear > across the room like a rag doll. In an a roll playing game the > gamemaster who is probably controlling Palpatine might roll the dice > to see how successful his lightning attack is and th
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. Fair enough, though to be honest I think I would always create my own character rather than play an existing one. my backstory, skills etc might be detailed or complex depending upon the time we had, but generally I'd much rather go with something unique where I can defign the personality. For example, i remember going to stay with a very close friend of mine for a day a couple of years ago. her husband decided he'd run a quick game of 7th sea, just for her and myself, and just for that 7 or so hours I was there. We didn't therefore have massive amounts of time to create complex characters, so the gm just asked us both to think of a single sentence concept. Mine was dashing officer, my friends was honest thief. So, with zero backstory we played this rather odd team, her playing a scummy, low down and dirty thief with a vague sense of morality somewhere, me playing a very upstanding and honourable cavalry officer who always tried to do the honourable thing, including challenging people to duels. We bickered, we sparred, the gm indeed said we made one of the most entertaining teams he'd ever seen, because the two of us know each others' personalities extremely well, yet were also playing completely contrasting characters. that was one of the best games I had, despite the very simple plot and premise, and despite the fact it only lasted a day. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi tom. the only problem is a lot of people seem to think that rolling the dice for stats is all! an rpg is, which is pretty pathetic. I've played with players like that before, and they're not fun, also they give rpg gamers something of a bad reputation. There's actually a book on podiobooks that had a really interesting premise but was terribly executed. the idea was what happened when rpg player actually became! their characters in the game world by some sort of magic. The problem? the author planely knew nothing about how rpgs were played, or the people who played them. When he represented the game, it was basically the gm telling the entire story and the characters just listening, and making dice rolls. Half of the characters were evil and obsesssed with power and killing each other, - and the entire group which was all male all seemed equally obsessed about, - , things not concerned with rp! Indeed, the first thing most of them did when getting into the rp world was find a bunch of prostitues. even his one female character he represents as this ridiculously naive girl who just goes on about love all the time, and he even has the gm say "having a girl in the group means I can do some less violent plots" - interesting as half of my rp group is female, and indeed my russian friend is probably more blood thirsty than I am! So, the amount of wrong ideas people have about rp is a real shame, and the sterriotypes of people who do it, and the fact that there ar! players who just want to sit around and roll dice and don't actually do any real roll playing at all isn't good from any angle. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Decota. I'm afraid I'd disagree completely on tabletop rp being anything like a mud. In a mud for instance, you are one character in a very large world, where as in a good tabletop game, the players, usually 2-8, are the heroes. The plot, npcs and the like revolve around them, unexpected encounters, villains, friends, saving the world etc to take one example, in my mutants game my character gains his super hero powers from a battlesuit. Originally, sinse the suit fell out of the sky, he assumed it to be alien. Yet actually it turns out that the suit was developed by mages in ancient egypt (you have to love superhero mythology), to guard a city of magic. in one session, our party went to egypt and explored the various other places where the guardian suits in the same series as mine were located, sinse we knew that the bad guys were looking for them. Needless to say, this plot was all about my character and his backstory. You wouldn't get that in a mud, where your backstory is just one sentence. This is part of the reason why i really enjoy tabletop rp, but am never really interested in rping in online games like alteraeon, sinse if I want to rp, I don't just want to be another face in the crowd. As to larp, aka live action rp where you dress up as your character, run around and smack people with plastic swords, unfortunately that's something I've never really fancied doing, sinse there are inherent access problems. Yes, I could play a blind character, but why do I want to? I'd rather play someone different from myself who can fight on their own, or do magic, than someone with the same limitations I have in reality. i've got lots of friends who are very seriously into larp, make their own costumes, are extremely skilled with fighting and travel around the country to events, but because of the inherent access problems it's just been something I've never been tempted to do at all. Probably if I had normal vision this would be different, but as it is I'd rather just stick to tabletop games where I can play any character i want. Also though, I'll point out that in a tabletop game, your characters can do things that aren't humanly possible. For instance, in a larpg game, magic is reduced to either in character stuff like mental magic, or to projectile or weapon based magic, with the projectiles being represented by chucking footballs at peopl. In a tabletop game however, you can have magic to make yourself fly, change your apprence, have a massive explosive wave of energy running out from your character, psychically manipulate objects with telechynises, create objects etc. None of these things could be represented in reality, therefore they can't be done in larp. As I said, it's something I'd considder if I had normal vision, but as it is, I'd just prefer to play characters who aren't! visually impared. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul. That's possible as a disclaimer, though my personal view is that if a company doesn't provide! an accessible copy, they've got no right to my respect or my patronage. I've spent 20 years trying to legitimately obtain things within the workings of the Uk copywrite laws, going through the rnib, writing to companies like wizards of the coast etc, and getting absolutely no where. i'd be quite happy to donate to the actual author, but I don't see why I should support these scummy distributors, who generally care nothing about access and just hide behind a series of laws meant only to protect their fat prophit margins. So, unless something is just as available in an accessible form for a similar price to it's none accessible copy, I'll get stuff any way I can. though conversely if I can donate to the author, or if something is available in an accessible form to everyone, I'll gladly pay for it. That's why I've bought audios from the leviathan chronicles, donated to sites like project.aon etc. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Well, I know all about those sorts of stereotypes. Unfortunately, they've been going around since the 1970's when Dungeons and Dragons first came onto the scene. A lot of the people who don't roll play really don't understand it and are gullible enough to believe anything anyone tells them. I can clearly remember when I first started getting into Dungeons and Dragons people telling me that Dungeons and Dragons was Satan worship, that people who were into roll playing games were more likely to kill themselves, and that people who played tabletop RPG were extremely violent people, etc. All of these roomers were groundless, totally false, but never-the-less those roomers spread like wildfire. Especially, in the religious communities who have always frowned on magic, fantasy, and things they consider to be non-Christian behavior. However, in my own personal experience most people who play Dungeons and Dragons are fairly nice decent people. Some have been religious, but not fanatical about it. None of them have been suicidal or even remotely homicidal in any way shape or form so where do these stupid roomers come from? I've also ran into my share of the other kind of person as well. They may not believe all the Satanic, suicidal, homicidal crap, but they may buy into the idea that tabletop roll playing is just a bunch of nerds sitting around a table throwing dice all night and don't really realize the depth of story and creativity that goes into a good session of roll playing. I've known gamemasters who spend an entire weak writing up his her own custom adventure guide for next week's meet and that takes a lot of work and planning just so a handful of people can sit down and play through the game. Its definitely not just about throwing dice. Cheers! On 6/17/12, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > the only problem is a lot of people seem to think that rolling the dice for > > stats is all! an rpg is, which is pretty pathetic. I've played with players > > like that before, and they're not fun, also they give rpg gamers something > of a bad reputation. > > There's actually a book on podiobooks that had a really interesting premise > > but was terribly executed. the idea was what happened when rpg player > actually became! their characters in the game world by some sort of magic. > The problem? the author planely knew nothing about how rpgs were played, or > > the people who played them. > > When he represented the game, it was basically the gm telling the entire > story and the characters just listening, and making dice rolls. Half of the > > characters were evil and obsesssed with power and killing each other, - > > and the entire group which was all male all seemed equally obsessed > about, - , things not concerned with rp! > > Indeed, the first thing most of them did when getting into the rp world was > > find a bunch of prostitues. > > even his one female character he represents as this ridiculously naive girl > > who just goes on about love all the time, and he even has the gm say "having > > a girl in the group means I can do some less violent plots" - > interesting as half of my rp group is female, and indeed my russian friend > is probably more blood thirsty than I am! > > So, the amount of wrong ideas people have about rp is a real shame, and the > > sterriotypes of people who do it, and the fact that there ar! players who > just want to sit around and roll dice and don't actually do any real roll > playing at all isn't good from any angle. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, HmmmThat's interesting. Certainly there are advantages to creating your own character from scratch, even for the short term, but as I said for some people they want to pretend or roll play someone they really like from an existing game universe. It all comes down to personal choice which is what makes roll playing so fun. However, I do agree it does make the game far more interesting if each person creates a custom character to roll play rather than looking at a list of existing characters and picking one out of a book. One thing that slightly irritates me is getting onto a mud and encountering someone named Captain Kirk, his personal ship is the Enterprise, and the game isn't even Star Trek. Its like, "hello, some creativity please!" Most of the time I'm like you. If I'm going to seriously roll play I'll spend some time working on creating a custom character unless there is compelling reason why I might choose to play an existing character. That's why even for games like Sryth or muds like Alter Aeon I'll keep track of my own character sheet with back story, stats, and an idea of where he or she is going in the game world as though it were a tabletop adventure. I like creating a character and seeing him or her grow in skills and experienced based on some criteria I chose rather than getting a character who is already defined by someone else. Its for that reason I get a little miffed when I'm playing in a game and see someone called Captain Kirk or Xena when I know they are copying someone else's character rather than spending some time and effort on a custom character. Although, I understand why people do it, and they either aren't good at creating custom characters or want to specifically roll play a certain character. Cheers! On 6/17/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > Fair enough, though to be honest I think I would always create my own > character rather than play an existing one. my backstory, skills etc might > be detailed or complex depending upon the time we had, but generally I'd > much rather go with something unique where I can defign the personality. > > For example, i remember going to stay with a very close friend of mine for a > > day a couple of years ago. > > her husband decided he'd run a quick game of 7th sea, just for her and > myself, and just for that 7 or so hours I was there. > > We didn't therefore have massive amounts of time to create complex > characters, so the gm just asked us both to think of a single sentence > concept. > > Mine was dashing officer, my friends was honest thief. > > So, with zero backstory we played this rather odd team, her playing a > scummy, low down and dirty thief with a vague sense of morality somewhere, > me playing a very upstanding and honourable cavalry officer who always tried > > to do the honourable thing, including challenging people to duels. > > We bickered, we sparred, the gm indeed said we made one of the most > entertaining teams he'd ever seen, because the two of us know each others' > personalities extremely well, yet were also playing completely contrasting > characters. > > that was one of the best games I had, despite the very simple plot and > premise, and despite the fact it only lasted a day. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Paul, Actually, the torrent sites really aren't getting around the law with those disclaimers any longer. Thanks to the SOPA and PIPA acts the film and music industry tried to push through Congress a lot of U.S. internet service providers are going to be putting software in place to track their customers internet activities and will report on them to law enforcement if they download music, movies, and electronic books from torrent sites. It is unknown if this is simply another scare tactic, but the fact of the matter is law enforcement and governments are beginning to crack down on torrent file sharing and will most likely make a few examples before they are through. Those disclaimers probably won't be enough to keep the F.B.I. from breaking down people's doors and arresting them for piracy, but the fact of the matter is I'm not sure how secure anyone is with or without a disclaimer. Cheers! On 6/17/12, Paul Lemm wrote: > Hi Dakotah > > I like the idea of only giving it out to people that all ready have a copy. > This comes back to the point I made about torrent/file sharing sites as > this > is how they get round it by having some disclaimer on the site explaining > that the files are only to be downloaded if the person downloading has the > original and is just creating a backup. This in mind if the books are put > onto thomas's site with the express intention of being an accessible > version > for the blind who already own the paper copy could there just be some tick > box that someone has to select before they download to say they own the > original and they are blind and just wanted an accessible version. Then > it is the responsibility of the person downloading the file to ensure they > either have or obtain the original version to. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Not really relevant, but I play a table top type of fantasy role-playing called runeQuest this side, with sighted friends, and what we generally do if there's like a newbie who wants to try it out/get into it, we'll to start off with, just let them play using one of the slightly detailed NPC's - as in a pre-rolled character that already has stats, skills, equipment etc. etc., whith the idea being that they can at least first try out just playing without having to necessarily understand all the detail involved in real character generation/development, but, if they then decide they want to carry on playing, we'll then let them roll up an actual character, work out things like character history, patterns practices, etc. etc. And, yes, I generally also use GMA dice, and my character sheets are text files. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Dark, HmmmThat's interesting. Certainly there are advantages to creating your own character from scratch, even for the short term, but as I said for some people they want to pretend or roll play someone they really like from an existing game universe. It all comes down to personal choice which is what makes roll playing so fun. However, I do agree it does make the game far more interesting if each person creates a custom character to roll play rather than looking at a list of existing characters and picking one out of a book. One thing that slightly irritates me is getting onto a mud and encountering someone named Captain Kirk, his personal ship is the Enterprise, and the game isn't even Star Trek. Its like, "hello, some creativity please!" Most of the time I'm like you. If I'm going to seriously roll play I'll spend some time working on creating a custom character unless there is compelling reason why I might choose to play an existing character. That's why even for games like Sryth or muds like Alter Aeon I'll keep track of my own character sheet with back story, stats, and an idea of where he or she is going in the game world as though it were a tabletop adventure. I like creating a character and seeing him or her grow in skills and experienced based on some criteria I chose rather than getting a character who is already defined by someone else. Its for that reason I get a little miffed when I'm playing in a game and see someone called Captain Kirk or Xena when I know they are copying someone else's character rather than spending some time and effort on a custom character. Although, I understand why people do it, and they either aren't good at creating custom characters or want to specifically roll play a certain character. Cheers! On 6/17/12, dark wrote: Hi Tom. Fair enough, though to be honest I think I would always create my own character rather than play an existing one. my backstory, skills etc might be detailed or complex depending upon the time we had, but generally I'd much rather go with something unique where I can defign the personality. For example, i remember going to stay with a very close friend of mine for a day a couple of years ago. her husband decided he'd run a quick game of 7th sea, just for her and myself, and just for that 7 or so hours I was there. We didn't therefore have massive amounts of time to create complex characters, so the gm just asked us both to think of a single sentence concept. Mine was dashing officer, my friends was honest thief. So, with zero backstory we played this rather odd team, her playing a scummy, low down and dirty thief with a vague sense of morality somewhere, me playing a very upstanding and honourable cavalry officer who always tried to do the honourable thing, including challenging people to duels. We bickered, we sparred, the gm indeed said we made one of the most entertaining teams he'd ever seen, because the two of us know each others' personalities extremely well, yet were also playing completely contrasting characters. that was one of the best games I had, despite the very simple plot and premise, and despite the fact it only lasted a day. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ G
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
While we're on the subject, Dark, could I ask a favour/ question of you. Putting it simply. The favour: could I join you in an RP run - I wouldn't be able to take too much time off my schedule, but it sounds fun. And the question, if i do get to play with you, then when and how do I play? -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 17 June 2012 22:21 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi tom. the only problem is a lot of people seem to think that rolling the dice for stats is all! an rpg is, which is pretty pathetic. I've played with players like that before, and they're not fun, also they give rpg gamers something of a bad reputation. There's actually a book on podiobooks that had a really interesting premise but was terribly executed. the idea was what happened when rpg player actually became! their characters in the game world by some sort of magic. The problem? the author planely knew nothing about how rpgs were played, or the people who played them. When he represented the game, it was basically the gm telling the entire story and the characters just listening, and making dice rolls. Half of the characters were evil and obsesssed with power and killing each other, - and the entire group which was all male all seemed equally obsessed about, - , things not concerned with rp! Indeed, the first thing most of them did when getting into the rp world was find a bunch of prostitues. even his one female character he represents as this ridiculously naive girl who just goes on about love all the time, and he even has the gm say "having a girl in the group means I can do some less violent plots" - interesting as half of my rp group is female, and indeed my russian friend is probably more blood thirsty than I am! So, the amount of wrong ideas people have about rp is a real shame, and the sterriotypes of people who do it, and the fact that there ar! players who just want to sit around and roll dice and don't actually do any real roll playing at all isn't good from any angle. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2433/5075 - Release Date: 06/17/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. Well I've never really taken that brand of christian seriously anyway, sinse the amount of things they say are some how connected with satan, from the internet to star trek to people who are gay is just ridiculous, so I wouldn't particularly pay that much attention to their opinions of rp, sinse their opinions about so many things just are a bunch of ill informed rubbish. Even among the more reasonable though, I've noticed tabletop rp is not very well understood for some reason. As an example, my brother's uni society was called the gaming society. On one occasion, one of their meetings was interupted by a massive load of anti fox hunting protesters who had the crazy idea that "gaming" meant hunting! Needless to say they backed out looking pretty stupid when they saw people's rp dice, rule books etc. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. Well during online games, muds etc is a little different, sinse quite often the people I've seen called captain kirk, frodo, doctor who etc won't actually behave like their characters, they just chose the name because it was one they liked, and themed their gear around it. indeed I've seen players called doctor who, bilbo and james T kirk on ce (darren is actually playing James T kirk I believe), but this is more of a homage to the character, than an rp situation. Myself, I don't really get into rp and backstory when I'm playing characters in an online game, sinse usually I'm more interested in interacting with the game, it's quests and mechanics than any sort of creative rp experience. That is why I usually always call my characters dark or dark empathy, which is as much a personal name to me these days as Luke is. I'll occasionally do some sort of running theme with naming things, so my ships in core exiles have been first the soprano, then the metso, then the alto, and now the counter tenor (I hope I don't run out of voices before I run out of ship upgrades!), but I don't generally attempt to rp, sinse as far as I am concerned it is just me personally playing the game, doing quests etc, born out by the fact that often the quests and actions in such games are pretty standard heroic ones anyway. Beware the grue! Dark. - O --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
In the Uk, the actual torrent software! is illegal, and you could potentially be prosecuted for having it on your computer, though in practice few people ever actually are prosecuted unless they actually attempt to sell illegal copies they've got from torrents for prophit. Still, that is why I don't use torrents myself, just in case. Beware the Grue! dArk. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:40 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Paul, Actually, the torrent sites really aren't getting around the law with those disclaimers any longer. Thanks to the SOPA and PIPA acts the film and music industry tried to push through Congress a lot of U.S. internet service providers are going to be putting software in place to track their customers internet activities and will report on them to law enforcement if they download music, movies, and electronic books from torrent sites. It is unknown if this is simply another scare tactic, but the fact of the matter is law enforcement and governments are beginning to crack down on torrent file sharing and will most likely make a few examples before they are through. Those disclaimers probably won't be enough to keep the F.B.I. from breaking down people's doors and arresting them for piracy, but the fact of the matter is I'm not sure how secure anyone is with or without a disclaimer. Cheers! On 6/17/12, Paul Lemm wrote: Hi Dakotah I like the idea of only giving it out to people that all ready have a copy. This comes back to the point I made about torrent/file sharing sites as this is how they get round it by having some disclaimer on the site explaining that the files are only to be downloaded if the person downloading has the original and is just creating a backup. This in mind if the books are put onto thomas's site with the express intention of being an accessible version for the blind who already own the paper copy could there just be some tick box that someone has to select before they download to say they own the original and they are blind and just wanted an accessible version. Then it is the responsibility of the person downloading the file to ensure they either have or obtain the original version to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi jacob. That I can understand, though to be honest when I was in those situations myself, what people mostly did was create a basic character concept, rather than a literal npc. So for instance you would say be given a "dwarven mercinary" chracter sheet, with your various items on it, and be left to fill in name, and any vague background you wanted, but have your skills, stats and equipment all sorted. This was actually a nice way to get into the game, sinse you could draw on an architype you personally liked, but were free to expand it. One of the best incidences I had was in a very crazy, steampunk, trans temporal game called I believe time bandits. I was offered several concepts to try for a one off session, gunslinger, beurocrat, brawler, and went for of all things "disney princess!" Sinse however she had massive physical stats, I played her as this sort of slightly psychotic sterriotypical disney heroin, who would give people long lectures about peace and love and beauty, then clobber them! :D. While not a character I'd want to play long term, for a one off evening's game it was hilarious and really good fun. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Ben. The problem is, you have to physically rp offline, at a given time with a given group of people. I'm obviously in the north of england and in the middle of a game, so it wouldn't really be convenient to meet up to do rp. i suggest checking any local shops such as forbidden planet in your area, as well as the local university for an rp group if you want to try it (I joined my local uni rp society foR d&d when i was 18, before I actually went to uni). I have heard people have done it over skype or other live voice chat software, though I've not tried that myself, and i'd be hesitant to actually running a game myself as I've never gm'd before. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Few problems there: 1. forbidden planet is in London. 2. I'm not in university. At least not yet. 3. there's no one local, that I know, or know of, who would play it. See the issue? One of these days we will have to go to the same convention or something: I'd like to discuss this further with you, in person, if possible. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 18 June 2012 08:39 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Ben. The problem is, you have to physically rp offline, at a given time with a given group of people. I'm obviously in the north of england and in the middle of a game, so it wouldn't really be convenient to meet up to do rp. i suggest checking any local shops such as forbidden planet in your area, as well as the local university for an rp group if you want to try it (I joined my local uni rp society foR d&d when i was 18, before I actually went to uni). I have heard people have done it over skype or other live voice chat software, though I've not tried that myself, and i'd be hesitant to actually running a game myself as I've never gm'd before. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2433/5076 - Release Date: 06/17/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
That sounds cool/like fun. Our sort of current thing is some of the story lines we're playing, it wouldn't be all that easy to just bring any old character/type of character in out of the blue, so we sometimes end up letting the game master decide which of his relatively detailed NPC players to let them try out, and we then encourage them to ask any questions they may come up with, with regard to playing processes, skills usage, etc. etc. And, BTW, my current, primary character is Bork! the Boar slayer! - and to give you a bit more of an idea relating to character development, etc. he has a stray wolf that sometimes follows him around, as well as a sort of NPC neanderthal type apprentice/assistant... Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi jacob. That I can understand, though to be honest when I was in those situations myself, what people mostly did was create a basic character concept, rather than a literal npc. So for instance you would say be given a "dwarven mercinary" chracter sheet, with your various items on it, and be left to fill in name, and any vague background you wanted, but have your skills, stats and equipment all sorted. This was actually a nice way to get into the game, sinse you could draw on an architype you personally liked, but were free to expand it. One of the best incidences I had was in a very crazy, steampunk, trans temporal game called I believe time bandits. I was offered several concepts to try for a one off session, gunslinger, beurocrat, brawler, and went for of all things "disney princess!" Sinse however she had massive physical stats, I played her as this sort of slightly psychotic sterriotypical disney heroin, who would give people long lectures about peace and love and beauty, then clobber them! :D. While not a character I'd want to play long term, for a one off evening's game it was hilarious and really good fun. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Ben. Forbidden planet isn't in london. It's a chain of shops devoted to rp, science fiction and various other things. There's one I've seen in nottingham, one in newcastle, and even one in skegness, also forbidden planet is only one example of such a shop sinse there are various ones around, my brother goes to one called travelling man in Nottingham run by a local firm where he plays his ccg card games, though they also do rp. As to uni, as I said, most university societies are fairly relaxed as long as your vaguely the right age, or will know people if not. As I said, I went and played D&D when I was 18 with the local uni society even though I wasn't at uni myself. I find it hard to believe that there is absolutely nobody! local, unless you live in a tiny little village somewhere, but unfortunately the only way to actually find groups who do tabletop rp is usually ask someone within the interest sinse it's still something of an underground hobby, which is why I suggest finding an rp related shop such as forbidden planet or asking the uni rp society as a good place to start. as for in person conversing, wellI'm not sure about that one, though it's quite possible that when my thesis is done I'll be going to far more anime and sf conventions and the like, indeed there's a really nice regular Dr. who convention near to where I live which i went to a couple of years ago but would love to get back to if I could, they had Colin baker, terry molloy (who plays davros), and before he died nicholas courtney (I've got a photo standing with him, which is quite amazing considdering he was in Dr. who for 40 years, and that he died about three months later), so there is a possibility there, but it'll all depend upon what I'm doing. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hay Jacob, I do know what you mean about difficulties introducing people to a campaigne mid way through. My mutants and masterminds game has gone on for over three years now, there is a huge amount of plot and backstory, and it'd be pretty hard for anyone to join in mid way through, though at the same time this also makes it a great game to play with a distinct ongoing plot. Probably if someone else turned up in the area who wanted to play we'd start another game with them, rather than introducing them into mutants. Btw, one amusing thing about long time rp players is sometimes they talk about rp events in their actual lives, which can sound very amusing to an outsider. My favourite of these was when two of our players got into an arguement about one of them owing money for a pizza and the other paying her back. After the arguement had escalated and lots of references about her boyfriends lack of reliable repayment were made, she finally burst out in great disgust with "you! left me chained to the anvil of dispare!" refering to an incident in a campeigne they both played! that was pretty funny, and in fairness if someone had left me chained to the anvil of dispare I'd probably not trust them to pay for a pizza either :D. Even more ironically, they're getting married in september, though I don't know whether the anvil of dispare is involved or not, complete strangeness! lol! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
LOL! And, yes, we also get some mentions of both the real world in our virtual world, and the reverse, and, we have like two separate campaigns/stories/sets of characters that we sometimes alternate sessions between, and, main thing is we make sure a person is really interested in playing for real before we bother getting them to roll up a full on character, and then let them influence actual parts of the story/campaign, etc., etc., and that's the other nice thing - both the current, 2 separate game masters handle their sets of NPC's in such a way that even the non-player characters have distinct personalities, and, both game masters have somewhat different approaches themselves, which also makes for a bit of variety in terms of playing style we try to make use of at different sessions. And, along the lines of that one, my secondary character is called Ichabod - name taken out of old headless horseman story - but he's more of a craftsman/ship wright, but, he's also damn good with the combo of his one-handed battle axe, and a round shield. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hay Jacob, I do know what you mean about difficulties introducing people to a campaigne mid way through. My mutants and masterminds game has gone on for over three years now, there is a huge amount of plot and backstory, and it'd be pretty hard for anyone to join in mid way through, though at the same time this also makes it a great game to play with a distinct ongoing plot. Probably if someone else turned up in the area who wanted to play we'd start another game with them, rather than introducing them into mutants. Btw, one amusing thing about long time rp players is sometimes they talk about rp events in their actual lives, which can sound very amusing to an outsider. My favourite of these was when two of our players got into an arguement about one of them owing money for a pizza and the other paying her back. After the arguement had escalated and lots of references about her boyfriends lack of reliable repayment were made, she finally burst out in great disgust with "you! left me chained to the anvil of dispare!" refering to an incident in a campeigne they both played! that was pretty funny, and in fairness if someone had left me chained to the anvil of dispare I'd probably not trust them to pay for a pizza either :D. Even more ironically, they're getting married in september, though I don't know whether the anvil of dispare is involved or not, complete strangeness! lol! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Sounds good. I've noticed different gms have different styles too. The gm of our mutants game makes great npcs and an interconnecting plot, however every single combat with him is like a huge, epic fight to the death, in fact none of his supervillains ever have minians, not unless they're super minians! :D. Another gm I know is great for story and ironic situations, and sticks in lots of moments for characters to be awesome, so expect huge armies of henchmen and then points for disposing of them, or to fight an entire flying airship full of baddies or the like. ironically, another great gm I know is actually my brother, sinse he runs amazingly free form games, where it's pretty much a case of the characters driving the plot, and he never actually tells players what to do or has that series npcs, he just says "so then, what're you going to do?" leaves everything up to the players, and then has plot sneak in along the sides, but my brother does sneaky very well a lot of the time :D. It's actually good to play with different gms and get used to different people's styles. The only gm's I really hate are those with no imagination who just constantly roll dice at you, sinse that's no fun really. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Yup, and it's also quite funny to sort of listen to how certain GM's react to other GM's styles - my one friend's sort of standard approach to role playing when not GM'ing is to be the scaly guy that does all sorts of things that might make things happen/occur that you'd never really have expected, and we always reckon part of that is his form of criticism of his brother's GM style...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Sounds good. I've noticed different gms have different styles too. The gm of our mutants game makes great npcs and an interconnecting plot, however every single combat with him is like a huge, epic fight to the death, in fact none of his supervillains ever have minians, not unless they're super minians! :D. Another gm I know is great for story and ironic situations, and sticks in lots of moments for characters to be awesome, so expect huge armies of henchmen and then points for disposing of them, or to fight an entire flying airship full of baddies or the like. ironically, another great gm I know is actually my brother, sinse he runs amazingly free form games, where it's pretty much a case of the characters driving the plot, and he never actually tells players what to do or has that series npcs, he just says "so then, what're you going to do?" leaves everything up to the players, and then has plot sneak in along the sides, but my brother does sneaky very well a lot of the time :D. It's actually good to play with different gms and get used to different people's styles. The only gm's I really hate are those with no imagination who just constantly roll dice at you, sinse that's no fun really. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Jacob, FYI. Ichabod was the name of the main character in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow. That is the name of the story about Ichabod and the headless horseman. :D Cheers! On 6/18/12, Jacob Kruger wrote: > LOL! > > And, yes, we also get some mentions of both the real world in our virtual > world, and the reverse, and, we have like two separate > campaigns/stories/sets of characters that we sometimes alternate sessions > between, and, main thing is we make sure a person is really interested in > playing for real before we bother getting them to roll up a full on > character, and then let them influence actual parts of the story/campaign, > etc., etc., and that's the other nice thing - both the current, 2 separate > game masters handle their sets of NPC's in such a way that even the > non-player characters have distinct personalities, and, both game masters > have somewhat different approaches themselves, which also makes for a bit of > > variety in terms of playing style we try to make use of at different > sessions. > > And, along the lines of that one, my secondary character is called Ichabod - > > name taken out of old headless horseman story - but he's more of a > craftsman/ship wright, but, he's also damn good with the combo of his > one-handed battle axe, and a round shield. > > Stay well > > Jacob Kruger --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Lol! Now, that is a couple of nerds for sure. Generally I keep my game life and real life separate. :D Cheers! On 6/18/12, dark wrote: > Hay Jacob, I do know what you mean about difficulties introducing people to > > a campaigne mid way through. > > My mutants and masterminds game has gone on for over three years now, there > > is a huge amount of plot and backstory, and it'd be pretty hard for anyone > to join in mid way through, though at the same time this also makes it a > great game to play with a distinct ongoing plot. > > Probably if someone else turned up in the area who wanted to play we'd start > > another game with them, rather than introducing them into mutants. > > Btw, one amusing thing about long time rp players is sometimes they talk > about rp events in their actual lives, which can sound very amusing to an > outsider. > > My favourite of these was when two of our players got into an arguement > about one of them owing money for a pizza and the other paying her back. > After the arguement had escalated and lots of references about her > boyfriends lack of reliable repayment were made, she finally burst out in > great disgust with "you! left me chained to the anvil of dispare!" refering > > to an incident in a campeigne they both played! that was pretty funny, and > in fairness if someone had left me chained to the anvil of dispare I'd > probably not trust them to pay for a pizza either :D. > > Even more ironically, they're getting married in september, though I don't > know whether the anvil of dispare is involved or not, complete strangeness! > > lol! > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Yup. I know, and shortly before I rolled up that character, although had read it in past, etc., I had gotten hold of the volunteer read audio version from librivox.org... Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Jacob, FYI. Ichabod was the name of the main character in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow. That is the name of the story about Ichabod and the headless horseman. :D Cheers! On 6/18/12, Jacob Kruger wrote: LOL! And, yes, we also get some mentions of both the real world in our virtual world, and the reverse, and, we have like two separate campaigns/stories/sets of characters that we sometimes alternate sessions between, and, main thing is we make sure a person is really interested in playing for real before we bother getting them to roll up a full on character, and then let them influence actual parts of the story/campaign, etc., etc., and that's the other nice thing - both the current, 2 separate game masters handle their sets of NPC's in such a way that even the non-player characters have distinct personalities, and, both game masters have somewhat different approaches themselves, which also makes for a bit of variety in terms of playing style we try to make use of at different sessions. And, along the lines of that one, my secondary character is called Ichabod - name taken out of old headless horseman story - but he's more of a craftsman/ship wright, but, he's also damn good with the combo of his one-handed battle axe, and a round shield. Stay well Jacob Kruger --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Really? You mean if you have BitComet, BitStorm, Utorrent, or any other torrent software on your system you can be prosecuted in the United Kingdom? That's total madness. Apparently, the people who make your laws don't realize how much legal stuff is available through torrents today. Well, legal depending on who's copyright laws you are using anyway. For example, take Pendant Audio. They are a non-commercial group of actors who create audio podcasts of popular comics like Superman, Batman, Supergirl, and Wonder Woman. They have a few other podcasts such as Indiana Jones and Star Trek as well. The point is they are free, non-commercial, and more or less legal because they use a type of fair use fan fiction type license. While you can download current shows from their website all of the high quality back episodes are available through a torrent. Downloading those shows via torrent client is perfectly legal. Another example I can think of is music created under the creative commons license. There are a lot of decent bands out there who haven't been signed to a big label and have chosen for one reason or another to license their music under the creative commons rather than a restrictive license used by the RIAA. In that case it is perfectly legal to redistribute that music via torrents provided the person who redistributes the torrent include a text copy of the creative commons license. Finally, last but not least, is open source software. Thanks to Linux and other open source platforms there is a lot of programs floating around the web in source code format. There are some people who download the source code for these open source applications, package them for various Linux distributions, and offer torrents of binary packages. Since the software is licensed under the GPL, LGPL, MIT, and other open source licenses its not at all illegal to redistribute the software. Of course, I am given to understand that the copyright laws in the U.K. are rather draconian, and have not been updated to deal with all the open source licenses like creative commons and GPL. Which is really too bad, because there is a lot of free stuff out there that the U.K. government doesn't recognize as free because of their stupid outdated laws. I remember perhaps two years ago the Gnome Foundation, the guys who develop the Gnome desktop for Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD, actually had a major court battle in the U.K. over this very issue. Apparently the U.K. didn't recognize the General Public License as a valid software license and therefore the Gnome desktop and related applications were technically not legal in the U.K. This is a very serious problem, because people are really getting the short end of the stick. For one thing the Gnome Accessibility Group are the people behind developing the Orca screen reader, Gnome Magnifyer,Gnome Onscreen Keyboard, and other related accessibility packages such as ATK and At-Spi. In other words not only was the U.K. government denying people access to the Gnome desktop in the general sense they were also denying every blind citizen the right to free and low cost accessibility software because of their stupid, hard headed, outdated copyright laws. This issue just isn't exclusive to Linux users either. The NVDA screen reader for Windows is also licensed under the GPL. That's the same license as Gnome uses. Until the U.K. updates their laws technically downloading and using a free screen reader like NVDA in the U.K. is illegal as I understand it. That's nuts! Excuse the rant, but I think it is high time you Brits take some kind of action against your government. They need a good kick in the seat of the pants, a few heads need to roll, and someone has to have the guts to stand up to them and tell them this is how things are going to be. In the words of Twisted Sister, "We're not going to take it! No, we're not going to take it! We're not going to take it any more!" :D Cheers! On 6/18/12, dark wrote: > In the Uk, the actual torrent software! is illegal, and you could > potentially be prosecuted for having it on your computer, though in > practice few people ever actually are prosecuted unless they actually > attempt to sell illegal copies they've got from torrents for prophit. > > Still, that is why I don't use torrents myself, just in case. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, I suppose its just all how a person approaches the game. As I said for myself weather I am playing Srith, Core Exiles, or a mud like Alter Aeon I still try to roll play. Probably because since moving to Millersburg I haven't had any group to roll play with so I do it virtually through online games which suits me. In fact, I can remember when joining Alter Aeon I was very annoyed that the name of my main character was taken by someone else. I have played that same character on a couple of different muds and online games like Srith so wanted her to be in Alter Aeon too. Character is very important to me and although I know it was not intentional I felt like someone had stolen my character identity. I suppose if I gave her a last name or a clan name that might not have happened, but I ended up starting over from scratch with a new character for Alter Aeon simply because it wasn't possible to use my existing character. Cheers! On 6/18/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > Well during online games, muds etc is a little different, sinse quite often > > the people I've seen called captain kirk, frodo, doctor who etc won't > actually behave like their characters, they just chose the name because it > was one they liked, and themed their gear around it. > > indeed I've seen players called doctor who, bilbo and james T kirk on ce > (darren is actually playing James T kirk I believe), but this is more of a > homage to the character, than an rp situation. > > Myself, I don't really get into rp and backstory when I'm playing characters > > in an online game, sinse usually I'm more interested in interacting with the > > game, it's quests and mechanics than any sort of creative rp experience. > That is why I usually always call my characters dark or dark empathy, which > > is as much a personal name to me these days as Luke is. > > I'll occasionally do some sort of running theme with naming things, so my > ships in core exiles have been first the soprano, then the metso, then the > alto, and now the counter tenor (I hope I don't run out of voices before I > run out of ship upgrades!), but I don't generally attempt to rp, sinse as > far as I am concerned it is just me personally playing the game, doing > quests etc, born out by the fact that often the quests and actions in > such games are pretty standard heroic ones anyway. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Oh, I definitely don't take those sorts of religious people seriously. Mainly because its usually a lot of misinformed and extremely ridiculous suppositions based on stereotypes. I know people like that, my in-laws are some of them, and their opinions are usually groundless. Especially, when you think of the kinds of ridiculous things they believe in. For example, I remember my in-laws made deviled eggs for a cookout one year, and I asked for a deviled egg. I was told very sternly not to call them deviled eggs by my in-laws because using the word devil in their presents was very offensive. Good Christians don't use words like that in their house, and they went on and on giving me some religious lecture over deviled eggs or pickled eggs if you prefer. Another time my wife and I picked up a box of cake mix, and her mother had a fit because it was a Devil's food cake mix. We had to take it back and exchange it, because she refused to bake the cake. She refused because she believed it was Satanic. Obviously, people who are that extreme that won't call pickled eggs "deviled eggs" and bake a cake because it says "Devil's Food Cake"have an extremely low opinion of Harry Potter, Star Wars, Dungeons and Dragons, and probably a hundred of other things they have religious biases against. No amount of rational discussion explaining Darth Maul is not the devil but an alien Sith Warrior or that people who play Dungeons and Dragons are not Satan worshipers will sway them from their opinions. People like that don't know, don't wanna know, don't care to know the truth. All they care about is hanging onto their religious biases, and therefore no rational person should take them too seriously. Unfortunately, it is people like that who make it bad on other Christians and other religious groups. I certainly know not everyone who calls himself or herself a Christian are quite that extreme, but I certainly don't enjoy being around people who consistently tell me I'm going to hell just because I play roll playing games or read books or listen to movies they don't like because of their religious views. So I just brush them off. The only reason I mentioned it in the first place is to point out the kinds of misinformed and far fetched ideas some people have about roll playing games. Cheers! On 6/18/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > Well I've never really taken that brand of christian seriously anyway, sinse > > the amount of things they say are some how connected with satan, from > the internet to star trek to people who are gay is just ridiculous, so I > wouldn't particularly pay that much attention to their opinions of rp, sinse > > their opinions about so many things just are a bunch of ill informed > rubbish. > > Even among the more reasonable though, I've noticed tabletop rp is not very > > well understood for some reason. As an example, my brother's uni society was > > called the gaming society. On one occasion, one of their meetings was > interupted by a massive load of anti fox hunting protesters who had the > crazy idea that "gaming" meant hunting! > > Needless to say they backed out looking pretty stupid when they saw people's > > rp dice, rule books etc. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Wait, you mean we can't gain access to super cool satanic powers by running role playing games? looks like my grandma was right, games are a big waste of time after all. and i was so looking forward to going toe to toe with jimmy swaggart wielding my killer inferno fireball spell up against his shield of tears and hordes of hooker minions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. I could ask my brother for the full details, but As far as I know it is the torrenting process that is specifically illegal, not the gpl license. I've freely downloaded lots of stuff from pendent productions, darker projects, podiobooks etc, and programs like 7zip, chipamp etc, and there are lots of people in the uk using nvda. none of them get prosecuted, however you could be for using bit torrent as a process. While the copywrite laws are indeed ridiculous, in reality, someone will never be investigated for breaking those laws unless they are attempting to prophit from them, because police in the uk are generally much more relaxed and focused on actual crime, mostly because when such cases do get to court the judge would probably just dismiss them because judges in the Uk have far more legal power than in the states. It's like the laws related to drugs. A couple of mine are quite major canabis users, but never tak anything else. They've had the police in their house while they were smoking weed, and the police didn't bat an eyelid, sinse the police are far more concerned about people dealing in heroin, cocane etc than a couple of lads who like interesting tobacco. indeed I've admitted on local radio myself that I've taken cannabis, which was absolutely fine as far as the law goes. This is the case Mary warnock makes for the way euthanasia is treated in the Uk, being that while it is technically! illegal, and cases will be brought to trial, in practice nobody has ever actually gone to jail for performing it because everytime it's got to trial the judge has dismissed the case. So, while laws in the Uk are indeed more draconian when it comes to general copywrite, and while this is severely annoying for getting anything accessible (as I've said, the government is less than committed to accessibility), I don't think we'll ever see people getting their daws bashed down by the police for having copywrite stuff on their computer so long as they don't try to make money by selling it. Heck, my brother! is a solicitor and is so straight according to the law you could use him as a ruler yet has lots of copied cds and audio books, and several peaces of open source software. Actually I'll ask him about this next time I speak to him, sinse it's an interesting issue, and it might be that I have my facts wrong, or that the law has changed recently. As to standing up to the government and changing their mind, well any faith I had in the possibility of doing that went out of the window the day when myself, along with about a million other people wandered the streets of london to say we didn't want a war, where upon not only did we have! a war, but we had a war for a reason that was a total lie. This is actually becoming a major problem in the Uk, confidence in the government and voter turn out has dropped to such a ridiculous level, indeed that's why at the moment we don't even have one party in power but have this coalition government because nobody actually got enough votes to gain the needed majority. that is why the government has been trying to drumb up publicity, with first the royal wedding, then the jubalee, now the olympics, but sinse they've been spending millions on these events (the opening ceremony for the olympics will cost 60 million pounds in just thirty minutes), while at the same time making cuts left right and center to cope with the recession and reducing budgits to everything! among lots of people this hasn't gone down well at all as you can imagine, especially when during the parades for the royal wedding the police were going around the streets removing posters which protesters had tacked up saying things like "we can't afford this!" Getting back to copywrite though, while I absolutely agree with you that the major law should be changed, in practice because the law inforcement system is a bit more flexible, it doesn't make too much difference to individuals that it isn't. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Tom. well those sorts of christians are nuts, and I agree they give reasonable christians a bad name the same way extreme muslims give the entirity of islam a bad name (personally I don't like either group). When I was in colidge a friend of mine always used to introduce me to such people, because, as a philosopher I could always manage to tie them in knots. One of my favourite tactics was asking if mahatma Gandi had gone to hell for not being a christian, and when they admitted that he did saying "well okay then, if hell is good enough for the greatest peace activist of the 20th century, it's good enough for me!" In fact I've often thought if indeed those people are right and only people with those sorts of views go to heaven, I really wouldn't want to go to heaven! :D. It can however be extremely unpleasant when they decide to start a witch hunt. For example, my brother once had an awefull experience where he went to what he assumed to be a reasonable church. Outside, was a man collecting for the gay awareness charity. In the middle of the service the priest actually stopped and told the congrigation about "the sinfull thing going on outside the church" where upon after the service lots of people went across and gave the fellow at the gay rights stand a severely hard time, and yet god is love! Sometimes I think that the worst instinct humans have is to band together in groups and say "everyone in our group is right" whether that's national, religious, racial, even disability based. But before this becomes a discourse on ethics I'lls top. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi dark, Your statement about the use of bit torrenting software being illegal in and of itself was startling to me. That would be like outlawing the use of knives because some folks use them to stab their fellow bipeds. I did a bit of research, and I can't find that this is the case however. Obviously, downloading copyrighted material is illegal, but using a tool that allows file sharing isn't, at least as far as I can tell from my googling. Do you have other info you could point me to on that? I know the U.K. is getting a bit out of hand with the surveillance of its own populace, but forbidding legitimate software like this outright would be something else, though not totally shocking unfortunately. also, you may not have realized it, but your cash strapped government recently doubled the budget for the opening ceremonies to over 110 million dollars. It aint cheap to make rivers athletes can walk on, generate fake rain over an entire stadium, and bring in literally thousands of animals. apparently, they are going to turn the place into a massive idyllic british farmland. should be spectacular, and to hell with the homeless, they should have trained harder as kids apparently, then maybe they could be benefitting from the money dump. oh, and gandhi probably didn't go to hell for being a non christian, but he might have gotten nailed for being a fairly hard core racist. check out his time spent in africa for some quotes from mister peace. Later che On 6/18/2012 4:21 PM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. well those sorts of christians are nuts, and I agree they give reasonable christians a bad name the same way extreme muslims give the entirity of islam a bad name (personally I don't like either group). When I was in colidge a friend of mine always used to introduce me to such people, because, as a philosopher I could always manage to tie them in knots. One of my favourite tactics was asking if mahatma Gandi had gone to hell for not being a christian, and when they admitted that he did saying "well okay then, if hell is good enough for the greatest peace activist of the 20th century, it's good enough for me!" In fact I've often thought if indeed those people are right and only people with those sorts of views go to heaven, I really wouldn't want to go to heaven! :D. It can however be extremely unpleasant when they decide to start a witch hunt. For example, my brother once had an awefull experience where he went to what he assumed to be a reasonable church. Outside, was a man collecting for the gay awareness charity. In the middle of the service the priest actually stopped and told the congrigation about "the sinfull thing going on outside the church" where upon after the service lots of people went across and gave the fellow at the gay rights stand a severely hard time, and yet god is love! Sometimes I think that the worst instinct humans have is to band together in groups and say "everyone in our group is right" whether that's national, religious, racial, even disability based. But before this becomes a discourse on ethics I'lls top. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Che. I was thinking specifically of some legal cases I've heard of where people have been prosecuted for using bit torrent, but as I said I'm not up on the current laws so it could've been the copywrite materials and the selling of those materials illegally, not necessarily the program, I just know the presence of bit torrent was used as primary evidence in those cases. There's an easy way to check though, I'll just ask my brother. As regards the ceremony, when I said 60 million, I of course meant pounds, which would indeed be somewhere in the region of a hundred million dollars. I'm sure the ceremony will be a spectacle, though whether all those old people who have had their pentions reduced in value, or those profoundly disabled individuals who've had their community centers closed will appreciate it I'm not sure. Still, if the government had brains they wouldn't be the government! :D. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Thomas, A former neighbor insisted that she made angel eggs for the pot luck not deviled eggs. She may have even left off the red paprika. I say former neighbor as she was evicted for constantly arguing with another neighbor over religious believes. Both Christians, but different extreme views. BFN Jim People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
That's a good idea Jim. maybe next time Tom runs into his relatives he could ask for a fallen angel egg! :D. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Jim Kitchen" To: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books Hi Thomas, A former neighbor insisted that she made angel eggs for the pot luck not deviled eggs. She may have even left off the red paprika. I say former neighbor as she was evicted for constantly arguing with another neighbor over religious believes. Both Christians, but different extreme views. BFN Jim People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi Dark, Yeah, let's not go there. Besides being completely off topic for the list if we start down the road of debating religion and ethics we will be here until doom's day discussing it. Like it or not everyone has an an opinion, right or wrong, and its amazing how drastically different those opinions can be in scope. Especially, when a lot of the opinions aren't based on rational observation and good old logic and reasoning. For example, a year or two back a couple of Jehovah Witnesses knocked on my door, and I let them in. They started in on their religious song and dance, and happened to mention they were raising money on some program to teach school age children about the Biblical Creation and what a lie Evolution was. Unfortunately, for them they chose the wrong guy to get into a debate with over Creationism vs Evolution. I'm a pretty science oriented kind of guy, and I find the religious creation stories rather dubious anyway. I've read a lot of the Creationism arguments before, and they are scientifically weak, usually are based on spurious information that is untrue, and try to defeat Evolution by stating that creation is an all or nothing process. However, that's beside the point here. I asked them if they honestly thought the universe was only 6,000 years old. They told me that the bible says it is only 6,000 years old, the earth was created in six days, etc. Well, I told them to point me to the verse or verses that states how old the earth is. They could not do that, because apparently its based on going throughout the various genealogies given in Matthew, Luke, Genesis, etc and coming up with some round about figure when the earth could have been created, but nowhere does the bible actually say the actual age of the earth and universe. What makes their argument even weaker if someone studies the first chapter of Genesis the word translated as day in English is misleading. In Hebrew the word could mean a day, a week, a month, an eon depending on how you choose to interpret it.Point being here that the bible doesn't actually say it was created in six literal days, but that's just how Jews and Christians chose to interpret it until science came along and proved that interpretation as impossible. Since the word for day in Hebrew is so vague it may very well mean millions and billions of years if a person is of a mind to interpret it that way. Naturally, they didn't like the fact I could so readily dismember their argument using the bible itself and we hadn't even gotten to the scientific arguments. I asked them about radio carbon dating which places the beginning of the universe at some 15 billion years ago, and they told me it was junk science. They told me radio carbon dating is horribly inaccurate which is only partly true. Radio carbon dating isn't good for pinning down an exact date but usually can date something to the correct century give or take a hundred years. That's good enough for what we are talking about here, and is accurate enough for most archeological dating of items let alone the beginning of the universe. Anyway, I then told them that the stars up in the sky are millions of light years away and when they look at the stars at night the light they see is already millions of years old. As you and I know the speed of light is the great constant in the universe, figuring out the distance of objects using light is easy to do, but they refused to believe that. Instead they came up with some lame excuse that they had to be a lot closer than astronomers claim and that the astronomers simply are wrong. Bottom line, I gave them three good rational arguments that disproved their theory, their beliefs, but they chose not to open their minds and listen to the my side of the debate. Instead they wanted to continue believing in their opinion right, wrong, or otherwise. This, I think, is the problem with religion. Some people once they become convinced of some truth, think they are right, regardless of what compelling evidence might prove them wrong in the long run. As they say, "a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Therefore arguing with such people is fruitless. Cheers! On 6/18/12, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > well those sorts of christians are nuts, and I agree they give reasonable > christians a bad name the same way extreme muslims give the entirity of > islam a bad name (personally I don't like either group). > > When I was in colidge a friend of mine always used to introduce me to such > people, because, as a philosopher I could always manage to tie them in > knots. One of my favourite tactics was asking if mahatma Gandi had gone to > hell for not being a christian, and when they admitted that he did saying > "well okay then, if hell is good enough for the greatest peace activist > > of the 20th century, it's good enough for me!" > > In fact I've often thought if indeed those people are right and only people > > with those sorts of views go t
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
The difficult thing for roleplayers compared to others is that we, if we have even a basic imagination, can come up with and play in a world with a vastly different religion than we believe in. I've seen devoutly faithful of several religions play happily in a world with god upon god upon god which interacted daily with their characters. I've seen atheists play characters who are so faithful it makes one wonder. The thing is that people who don't roleplay just can't seem to understand the ones who do. I was once asked how I could read about or play games in worlds with such odd religions. My answer was simple. I imagine, for a while, that the world is that way, and I have a good time. There are people who really do take it too seriously. There are people who get so into character that they seem to forget themselves and become that character. This is just as unhealthy as any other mental abaration. It just gets noticed more, because normal people kill each other with guns, not swords and such, so when a nerd or gamer or whatever spazzes and offs someone with a sword, everyone spazzes right back. As for religious conviction in the real world, I don't blame people for sticking to their arguments. I prefer people to listen, but I find myself daily admiring the faith of people who believe sometimes directly in spite of the evidence they are given. It is easy to believe in something proven. It is hard to believe despite contrary evidence. It all is tied together though, because roleplay is the great equalizer. If people give it a chance, roleplay could end war. Why fight when you could roleplay your fight instead. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would think it's a better system. But screw the silly impractical stuff. Roleplay is great because it builds oneself. How better to explore an aspect of your personality than to put that aspect into a character, fill it out a little, and see what happens. I'm a lot more patient, because I play a patient character and find the virtue within myself. Happy Gaming. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 6/19/12, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi Dark, > > Yeah, let's not go there. Besides being completely off topic for the > list if we start down the road of debating religion and ethics we will > be here until doom's day discussing it. Like it or not everyone has an > an opinion, right or wrong, and its amazing how drastically different > those opinions can be in scope. Especially, when a lot of the opinions > aren't based on rational observation and good old logic and reasoning. > > For example, a year or two back a couple of Jehovah Witnesses knocked > on my door, and I let them in. They started in on their religious song > and dance, and happened to mention they were raising money on some > program to teach school age children about the Biblical Creation and > what a lie Evolution was. Unfortunately, for them they chose the wrong > guy to get into a debate with over Creationism vs Evolution. I'm a > pretty science oriented kind of guy, and I find the religious creation > stories rather dubious anyway. I've read a lot of the Creationism > arguments before, and they are scientifically weak, usually are based > on spurious information that is untrue, and try to defeat Evolution > by stating that creation is an all or nothing process. However, that's > beside the point here. > > I asked them if they honestly thought the universe was only 6,000 > years old. They told me that the bible says it is only 6,000 years > old, the earth was created in six days, etc. Well, I told them to > point me to the verse or verses that states how old the earth is. They > could not do that, because apparently its based on going throughout > the various genealogies given in Matthew, Luke, Genesis, etc and > coming up with some round about figure when the earth could have been > created, but nowhere does the bible actually say the actual age of the > earth and universe. What makes their argument even weaker if someone > studies the first chapter of Genesis the word translated as day in > English is misleading. In Hebrew the word could mean a day, a week, a > month, an eon depending on how you choose to interpret it.Point being > here that the bible doesn't actually say it was created in six literal > days, but that's just how Jews and Christians chose to interpret it > until science came along and proved that interpretation as impossible. > Since the word for day in Hebrew is so vague it may very well mean > millions and billions of years if a person is of a mind to interpret > it that way. Naturally, they didn't like the fact I could so readily > dismember their argument using the bible itself and we hadn't even > gotten to the scientific arguments. > > I asked them about radio carbon dating which places the beginning of > the universe at some 15 billion years ago, and they told me it was > junk science. They told me radio carbon dating is horribly inaccurate > which is only partly true. Radio carb
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
When I was little, I was friends with a lot of more extreme Christians, and they had such an influence that i refused to write the number 666 as an answer to a test. I knew the answer, the teacher asked me why I got only that question wrong, and I remember clearly thinking that there was something unhappy inside me for having to get that answer incorrect because of a number, but as I said in another post, it is hard not to admire the faith of people in this age in which faith is sort of a dying art. I don't like some of the things done in the name of faith, but I love faith itself. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 6/19/12, dark wrote: > That's a good idea Jim. maybe next time Tom runs into his relatives he could > > ask for a fallen angel egg! :D. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > - Original Message - > From: "Jim Kitchen" > To: "Thomas Ward" > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 10:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books > > >> Hi Thomas, >> >> A former neighbor insisted that she made angel eggs for the pot luck not >> deviled eggs. She may have even left off the red paprika. I say former >> neighbor as she was evicted for constantly arguing with another neighbor >> over religious believes. Both Christians, but different extreme views. >> >> BFN >> >> Jim >> >> People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want >> >> you to share yours with them. >> >> j...@kitchensinc.net >> http://www.kitchensinc.net >> (440) 286-6920 >> Chardon Ohio USA >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi decota. One interesting thing, is that the more you learn about science and the scientific process, the more you realize that it is just as much a matter of supposition, speculation and opinion based on pre existing conceptions of the world as any other belief system, and people like Richard dorkins who seem to think that it's any sort of method of discovering universal truth are completely and utterly on the wrong track. This isn't to say everyone is right, or that we should accept any view unchallenged, only that the belief, originally started in the later part of the enlightenment and then carried on by movements like logical positivism, that on the one hand there is rational, cold and objective science, and on the other there is irrational immotive religion is utterly unfounded. indeed, when I was doing my A levels in psychology, biology and religious ethics, it always amused me that in the ethics and psychology we'd get view of people who said "no, it's all just neural chemistry, there is no unphysical mind" then in biology when actually studdying! neuro chemistry, it would be "well this is sort of slightly how we perhaps might think a reflex might sort of work!" My own religious belief I do not call faith, sinse it is based on direct experience, thus it would be irrational! or at the least inconsistant with a belief in the reliability of my own perceptions of the world to disbelieve those experiences, albeit that these days I am somewhat less certain as to whether God actually cares about anyone on a personal level or is in any sense active. My own religious beliefs aside though, I suggest you look into the practice of philosophy of science, more specifically Hume's outline of the problem of induction, Kuhn's arguements of paradigm shift, and Paul ffiaabent's arguement from experimental regress. All are very well outlined in an introductory book called what is this thing called science, edited by A.J. chambers. it was one of my text books when I studdied philosophy of science during my degree, but was one of the best written and most interesting to read, and I'd highly suggest anyone interested in this topic have a look at it. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Oh yes. I am quite familiar with bio-psychology. Apparently, according to that one, thoughts and consciousness are merely the brains way of letting the world know that it is working. There is some sort of study that shows how thoughts can come at least 300 milliseconds after actions. My personal feeling on that one is that it's basically the religion of human animalism, and I treat it as such. As for the view of science and religion as opposite sides, as though there is some great game of discovery and each force, science and religion, are teams in that match, how can we be surprised? Humanity is quite good at making such dycotomies. I mean, tying this back to the original topic, look at people's reactions to roleplay. Either it's good or it's bad. Either it increases imagination, allows healthy expression of emotions, is a great source of fun, etc., or it is a form of escapism for the deluded, a waste of time, morrally or religiously reprehensible, etc. I honestly think that it is just a human thing to operate in black and white terms, reguardless of culture, creed, or custom. I mean, even look at a good bit of the books, television programs, and movies out there, from all sorts of places around the world. There is definitely a protagonist and definitely an antagonist. Whether either is morrally correct is questionable, but the protagonist tends to be more so and the antagonist tends to be less so. Science and religion can coexist on the same planet, in the same discussion, and within one individual. I will never understand those who claim it cannot be so. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 6/20/12, dark wrote: > Hi decota. > > One interesting thing, is that the more you learn about science and the > scientific process, the more you realize that it is just as much a matter of > > supposition, speculation and opinion based on pre existing conceptions of > the world as any other belief system, and people like Richard dorkins who > seem to think that it's any sort of method of discovering universal truth > are completely and utterly on the wrong track. > > This isn't to say everyone is right, or that we should accept any view > unchallenged, only that the belief, originally started in the later part of > > the enlightenment and then carried on by movements like logical positivism, > > that on the one hand there is rational, cold and objective science, and on > the other there is irrational immotive religion is utterly unfounded. > > indeed, when I was doing my A levels in psychology, biology and religious > ethics, it always amused me that in the ethics and psychology we'd get view > > of people who said "no, it's all just neural chemistry, there is no > unphysical mind" then in biology when actually studdying! neuro chemistry, > it would be "well this is sort of slightly how we perhaps might think a > reflex might sort of work!" > > My own religious belief I do not call faith, sinse it is based on direct > experience, thus it would be irrational! or at the least inconsistant with a > > belief in the reliability of my own perceptions of the world to disbelieve > those experiences, albeit that these days I am somewhat less certain as to > whether God actually cares about anyone on a personal level or is in any > sense active. > > My own religious beliefs aside though, I suggest you look into the practice > > of philosophy of science, more specifically Hume's outline of the problem of > > induction, Kuhn's arguements of paradigm shift, and Paul ffiaabent's > arguement from experimental regress. > > All are very well outlined in an introductory book called what is this thing > > called science, edited by A.J. chambers. it was one of my text books when I > > studdied philosophy of science during my degree, but was one of the best > written and most interesting to read, and I'd highly suggest anyone > interested in this topic have a look at it. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Redistributing RPG Source Books
Hi decota. your right there, people seem to love opposing viewpoints. I'm also always amused at the way people love explaining other people's actions with relation to something that has nothing to do with what motives they say! they're following, whether it's freudian unconsciousness, bio psychology, those ridiculous evolutionary explanations of behaviour (I love the one that assume's we're all selfish gits deep down and just want to reproduce even when we don't), or some kind of existential anxt. It's like a black box, you put down there whatever you most like! :D. So, to stay on topic, there are those people who charaterize roleplay as wish fulfillment, fantasy, desire to enact biological or freudian architypes or goodness knows what else, myself, i like roleplay because i find it fun! end of story! This is however why I'm very much losing my fascination with philosophy as an academic diciplin, and why I won't be doing it as a career, because more and more rather than any sort of process of rational arguement it just seems a case of pick whichever side you like best, then join in the game on that side, rather than any actual attempt to come to a resolution of any sort, still less actually come up with anything that people will find usefull, which is indeed why i myself try to keep my interlectualizing to usefull topics like the characteristics of games, or indeed a deffinition of disability as per my phd thesis. The most extreme example i saw of this was a couple of months ago in my department, when a guest lecturer and one of our lecturers had a very complex, hifaluting arguement about the basic treatment of moral beeings which went on for about half an hour, yet neither of them had once spoken to my dog! Anyway, this is pretty much off topic so I'd better stop, besides, I've just written close to 1500 words in the space of an hour, so my brain is feeling a little philosophized out for today! :D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
