Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 9/10/2010 11:25 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote: > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Greg Stein wrote: >> For reference: >> >> * Subversion created its dev list in April 2000. >> * The user list was created in July 2003. 238 messages were posted that >> month. >> >> As you can see, we waited a very long time before sending users to >> their own list. Our dev list was very heavily trafficked by our users. >> It kept the larger community together until the point where they could >> safely work on their own. > > I think my post at the time gives light as to why we waited so long > and why I felt it was time for the user list to be created: > > http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2003-07/1363.shtml > > BTW, those 238 messages in July all came in 10 days... =P -- justin Training users to actually move to the users@ list in 10 days in and of itself is pretty amazing :) Agreed that this is not appropriate for the typical incubator project, both my own mod_aspdotnet podling and those such as stdcxx or lokahi would have done better on just one [public] list. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On 13/09/2010 14:35, Noel J. Bergman wrote: >> So far I see 2 clear (binding) +1s for the proposal... >> Calling out for more ;) > > Echoing Bertrand's comment, people may have been waiting for a [VOTE] > thread. A VOTE is a good idea. :) p 0x62590808.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 from me (binding) On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: > So far I see 2 clear (binding) +1s for the proposal... > > Calling out for more ;) > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Matthew Sacks wrote: > >> Hello, Peary Chiu and myself would like to announce the Proposal for the >> Kitty, Production Tomcat utility. Our proposal is as follows (we have also >> attached a PDF for convenience): >> >> kitty, lightweight, Production-class Java application server performance >> diagnostic & administration utility >> >> Abstract >> >> A lightweight, production focused, Java-based application server performance >> diagnostic and management utility >> >> Proposal >> >> • Provide a lightweight utility for managing Tomcat and Geronimo >> application servers with powerful performance diagnostics and >> troubleshooting abilities primarily for supporting Tomcat in production/high >> volume use. >> • (future) Provide support for all Java application servers >> >> Background >> >> The answer is simple, there is not a lightweight, command line >> administration utility that can be utilized across open source application >> servers. There are many utilities which have been created such as jmxsh, but >> they do not solve the problem of having a lightweight administration / >> debugging client for troubleshooting these open source application servers >> such as Apache Tomcat and Geronimo. >> >> Rationale >> >> There needs to be a lightweight, administration client that targets >> production use based on the experience of those administering Tomcat (and >> other open source Java application servers) in high-volume, large scale >> production environments. Such an administration tool will help further these >> open source application servers in production, large-installation grade >> implementations and better support such “industrial-grade” use. >> >> Initial Goals >> >> kitty is an existing open source project, with two contributors. We would >> bring in more folks with experience in managing high-volume production Web >> sites to contribute to the architecture of the kitty project. Currently we >> have two committers both with high-volume, production Web experience. We’d >> also leverage feedback from the community in this context and integrate that >> into the utility to provide a truly powerful management and performance >> diagnostic utility for Tomcat/Geronimo and other Java application servers. >> >> We will add common diagnostic hooks into the application as a first step, >> for example, show available memory, threading problems, JDBC, and Web >> application diagnostic hooks. >> >> The application will run in script mode (future) for automation purposes, or >> interactive mode, so it can be used for ad-hoc troubleshooting. >> >> Supported Platforms >> • Apache Tomcat 6.0+ >> >> Future Support >> >> • Apache Geronimo >> • All other Java application servers >> >> Known Risks >> >> Currently the application is coded in Jython. Jython makes a suitable fit >> for many command-line administration tools. We plan on creating a pure, >> Groovy-based port of kitty in the next few weeks, primarily for ease of >> compilation to Java classes. >> >> We understand that developing this in Jython makes it faster to develop the >> utility, but increases it’s complexity for compilation. We are in the >> process of converting the project to Groovy to address this issue, within >> two weeks from the date of this proposal. >> >> Initial Source >> http://github.com/msacks/kitty >> >> External Dependencies >> >> Jython 2.5.1 >> >> Documentation >> >> - README (Documentation) http://github.com/msacks/kitty/blob/master/README >> - How Kitty was Born >> http://www.tomcatexpert.com/blog/2010/05/17/creating-custom-tools-monitoring-tomcat >> >> Initial Committers >> >> Matthew Sacks (matt...@glasscodeinc.com) >> Peary Chiu (pearyc...@gmail.com) >> Jim Jagielski (j...@jimgjag.com) >> Stuart Williams (p...@pidster.com) >> >> Required Resources >> • Subversion >> • Jira >> • Wiki >> • Website Space >> • Hudson >> >> Mailing Lists >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> >> Subversion Repository >> >> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/kitty >> >> Issue Tracking >> >> Jira; project known as ‘kitty’ >> >> Affiliations >> >> Matthew Sacks (self) >> Peary Chiu (self, also employed by Edmunds Inc) >> Jim Jagielski (ASF/ VMware) >> Stuart Williams (VMware/ASF) >> >> >> Champion >> >> Jim Jagielski >> >> Sponsors: Nominated Mentors >> >> Jim Jagielski >> Stuart Williams >> Mark Thomas >> >> Sponsor >> >> Apache Incubator >> >> >> >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com --
RE: Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
> So far I see 2 clear (binding) +1s for the proposal... > Calling out for more ;) Echoing Bertrand's comment, people may have been waiting for a [VOTE] thread. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: > So far I see 2 clear (binding) +1s for the proposal... It's a proposal, not a vote, right? I think it's fine to move forward with the vote if there are no pending issues (haven't checked). -Bertrand > Calling out for more ;) > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Matthew Sacks wrote: > >> Hello, Peary Chiu and myself would like to announce the Proposal for the >> Kitty, Production Tomcat utility. Our proposal is as follows (we have also >> attached a PDF for convenience): >> >> kitty, lightweight, Production-class Java application server performance >> diagnostic & administration utility >> >> Abstract >> >> A lightweight, production focused, Java-based application server performance >> diagnostic and management utility >> >> Proposal >> >> • Provide a lightweight utility for managing Tomcat and Geronimo >> application servers with powerful performance diagnostics and >> troubleshooting abilities primarily for supporting Tomcat in production/high >> volume use. >> • (future) Provide support for all Java application servers >> >> Background >> >> The answer is simple, there is not a lightweight, command line >> administration utility that can be utilized across open source application >> servers. There are many utilities which have been created such as jmxsh, but >> they do not solve the problem of having a lightweight administration / >> debugging client for troubleshooting these open source application servers >> such as Apache Tomcat and Geronimo. >> >> Rationale >> >> There needs to be a lightweight, administration client that targets >> production use based on the experience of those administering Tomcat (and >> other open source Java application servers) in high-volume, large scale >> production environments. Such an administration tool will help further these >> open source application servers in production, large-installation grade >> implementations and better support such “industrial-grade” use. >> >> Initial Goals >> >> kitty is an existing open source project, with two contributors. We would >> bring in more folks with experience in managing high-volume production Web >> sites to contribute to the architecture of the kitty project. Currently we >> have two committers both with high-volume, production Web experience. We’d >> also leverage feedback from the community in this context and integrate that >> into the utility to provide a truly powerful management and performance >> diagnostic utility for Tomcat/Geronimo and other Java application servers. >> >> We will add common diagnostic hooks into the application as a first step, >> for example, show available memory, threading problems, JDBC, and Web >> application diagnostic hooks. >> >> The application will run in script mode (future) for automation purposes, or >> interactive mode, so it can be used for ad-hoc troubleshooting. >> >> Supported Platforms >> • Apache Tomcat 6.0+ >> >> Future Support >> >> • Apache Geronimo >> • All other Java application servers >> >> Known Risks >> >> Currently the application is coded in Jython. Jython makes a suitable fit >> for many command-line administration tools. We plan on creating a pure, >> Groovy-based port of kitty in the next few weeks, primarily for ease of >> compilation to Java classes. >> >> We understand that developing this in Jython makes it faster to develop the >> utility, but increases it’s complexity for compilation. We are in the >> process of converting the project to Groovy to address this issue, within >> two weeks from the date of this proposal. >> >> Initial Source >> http://github.com/msacks/kitty >> >> External Dependencies >> >> Jython 2.5.1 >> >> Documentation >> >> - README (Documentation) http://github.com/msacks/kitty/blob/master/README >> - How Kitty was Born >> http://www.tomcatexpert.com/blog/2010/05/17/creating-custom-tools-monitoring-tomcat >> >> Initial Committers >> >> Matthew Sacks (matt...@glasscodeinc.com) >> Peary Chiu (pearyc...@gmail.com) >> Jim Jagielski (j...@jimgjag.com) >> Stuart Williams (p...@pidster.com) >> >> Required Resources >> • Subversion >> • Jira >> • Wiki >> • Website Space >> • Hudson >> >> Mailing Lists >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> >> Subversion Repository >> >> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/kitty >> >> Issue Tracking >> >> Jira; project known as ‘kitty’ >> >> Affiliations >> >> Matthew Sacks (self) >> Peary Chiu (self, also employed by Edmunds Inc) >> Jim Jagielski (ASF/ VMware) >> Stuart Williams (VMware/ASF) >> >> >> Champion >> >> Jim Jagielski >> >> Sponsors: Nominated Mentors >> >> Jim Jagielski >> Stuart Williams >> Mark Thomas >> >> Sponsor >> >> Apache Incubator >> >> >> >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
Re: Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 sound neat - and I'm really eager to check the groovy port ;) LieGrue, strub --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Jim Jagielski wrote: > From: Jim Jagielski > Subject: Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the > Incubator > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Cc: "Peary Chiu" , "Pid" , "Mark > Thomas" > Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 1:11 PM > So far I see 2 clear (binding) +1s > for the proposal... > > Calling out for more ;) > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Matthew Sacks wrote: > > > Hello, Peary Chiu and myself would like to announce > the Proposal for the Kitty, Production Tomcat utility. Our > proposal is as follows (we have also attached a PDF for > convenience): > > > > kitty, lightweight, Production-class Java application > server performance diagnostic & administration utility > > > > Abstract > > > > A lightweight, production focused, Java-based > application server performance diagnostic and management > utility > > > > Proposal > > > > • Provide a lightweight utility > for managing Tomcat and Geronimo application servers with > powerful performance diagnostics and troubleshooting > abilities primarily for supporting Tomcat in production/high > volume use. > > • (future) Provide support for > all Java application servers > > > > Background > > > > The answer is simple, there is not a lightweight, > command line administration utility that can be utilized > across open source application servers. There are many > utilities which have been created such as jmxsh, but they do > not solve the problem of having a lightweight administration > / debugging client for troubleshooting these open source > application servers such as Apache Tomcat and Geronimo. > > > > Rationale > > > > There needs to be a lightweight, administration client > that targets production use based on the experience of those > administering Tomcat (and other open source Java application > servers) in high-volume, large scale production > environments. Such an administration tool will help further > these open source application servers in production, > large-installation grade implementations and better support > such “industrial-grade” use. > > > > Initial Goals > > > > kitty is an existing open source project, with two > contributors. We would bring in more folks with experience > in managing high-volume production Web sites to contribute > to the architecture of the kitty project. Currently we have > two committers both with high-volume, production Web > experience. We’d also leverage feedback from the community > in this context and integrate that into the utility to > provide a truly powerful management and performance > diagnostic utility for Tomcat/Geronimo and other Java > application servers. > > > > We will add common diagnostic hooks into the > application as a first step, for example, show available > memory, threading problems, JDBC, and Web application > diagnostic hooks. > > > > The application will run in script mode (future) for > automation purposes, or interactive mode, so it can be used > for ad-hoc troubleshooting. > > > > Supported Platforms > > • Apache Tomcat 6.0+ > > > > Future Support > > > > • Apache Geronimo > > • All other Java application > servers > > > > Known Risks > > > > Currently the application is coded in Jython. Jython > makes a suitable fit for many command-line administration > tools. We plan on creating a pure, Groovy-based port of > kitty in the next few weeks, primarily for ease of > compilation to Java classes. > > > > We understand that developing this in Jython makes it > faster to develop the utility, but increases it’s > complexity for compilation. We are in the process of > converting the project to Groovy to address this issue, > within two weeks from the date of this proposal. > > > > Initial Source > > http://github.com/msacks/kitty > > > > External Dependencies > > > > Jython 2.5.1 > > > > Documentation > > > > - README (Documentation) http://github.com/msacks/kitty/blob/master/README > > - How Kitty was Born > > http://www.tomcatexpert.com/blog/2010/05/17/creating-custom-tools-monitoring-tomcat > > > > Initial Committers > > > > Matthew Sacks (matt...@glasscodeinc.com) > > Peary Chiu (pearyc...@gmail.com) > > Jim Jagielski (j...@jimgjag.com) > > Stuart Williams (p...@pidster.com) > > > > Required Resources
Looking for a few more votes... Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
So far I see 2 clear (binding) +1s for the proposal... Calling out for more ;) On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Matthew Sacks wrote: > Hello, Peary Chiu and myself would like to announce the Proposal for the > Kitty, Production Tomcat utility. Our proposal is as follows (we have also > attached a PDF for convenience): > > kitty, lightweight, Production-class Java application server performance > diagnostic & administration utility > > Abstract > > A lightweight, production focused, Java-based application server performance > diagnostic and management utility > > Proposal > > • Provide a lightweight utility for managing Tomcat and Geronimo > application servers with powerful performance diagnostics and troubleshooting > abilities primarily for supporting Tomcat in production/high volume use. > • (future) Provide support for all Java application servers > > Background > > The answer is simple, there is not a lightweight, command line administration > utility that can be utilized across open source application servers. There > are many utilities which have been created such as jmxsh, but they do not > solve the problem of having a lightweight administration / debugging client > for troubleshooting these open source application servers such as Apache > Tomcat and Geronimo. > > Rationale > > There needs to be a lightweight, administration client that targets > production use based on the experience of those administering Tomcat (and > other open source Java application servers) in high-volume, large scale > production environments. Such an administration tool will help further these > open source application servers in production, large-installation grade > implementations and better support such “industrial-grade” use. > > Initial Goals > > kitty is an existing open source project, with two contributors. We would > bring in more folks with experience in managing high-volume production Web > sites to contribute to the architecture of the kitty project. Currently we > have two committers both with high-volume, production Web experience. We’d > also leverage feedback from the community in this context and integrate that > into the utility to provide a truly powerful management and performance > diagnostic utility for Tomcat/Geronimo and other Java application servers. > > We will add common diagnostic hooks into the application as a first step, for > example, show available memory, threading problems, JDBC, and Web application > diagnostic hooks. > > The application will run in script mode (future) for automation purposes, or > interactive mode, so it can be used for ad-hoc troubleshooting. > > Supported Platforms > • Apache Tomcat 6.0+ > > Future Support > > • Apache Geronimo > • All other Java application servers > > Known Risks > > Currently the application is coded in Jython. Jython makes a suitable fit for > many command-line administration tools. We plan on creating a pure, > Groovy-based port of kitty in the next few weeks, primarily for ease of > compilation to Java classes. > > We understand that developing this in Jython makes it faster to develop the > utility, but increases it’s complexity for compilation. We are in the process > of converting the project to Groovy to address this issue, within two weeks > from the date of this proposal. > > Initial Source > http://github.com/msacks/kitty > > External Dependencies > > Jython 2.5.1 > > Documentation > > - README (Documentation) http://github.com/msacks/kitty/blob/master/README > - How Kitty was Born > http://www.tomcatexpert.com/blog/2010/05/17/creating-custom-tools-monitoring-tomcat > > Initial Committers > > Matthew Sacks (matt...@glasscodeinc.com) > Peary Chiu (pearyc...@gmail.com) > Jim Jagielski (j...@jimgjag.com) > Stuart Williams (p...@pidster.com) > > Required Resources > • Subversion > • Jira > • Wiki > • Website Space > • Hudson > > Mailing Lists > > kitty-dev > kitty-commits > kitty-user > > Subversion Repository > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/kitty > > Issue Tracking > > Jira; project known as ‘kitty’ > > Affiliations > > Matthew Sacks (self) > Peary Chiu (self, also employed by Edmunds Inc) > Jim Jagielski (ASF/ VMware) > Stuart Williams (VMware/ASF) > > > Champion > > Jim Jagielski > > Sponsors: Nominated Mentors > > Jim Jagielski > Stuart Williams > Mark Thomas > > Sponsor > > Apache Incubator > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > For reference: > > * Subversion created its dev list in April 2000. > * The user list was created in July 2003. 238 messages were posted that month. > > As you can see, we waited a very long time before sending users to > their own list. Our dev list was very heavily trafficked by our users. > It kept the larger community together until the point where they could > safely work on their own. I think my post at the time gives light as to why we waited so long and why I felt it was time for the user list to be created: http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2003-07/1363.shtml BTW, those 238 messages in July all came in 10 days... =P -- justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Knowing Roy he'd probably want to see them all renamed u...@. - Original Message > From: Mark Struberg > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 6:31:05 PM > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] > Kitty >to Enter the Incubator) > > btw, regarding consistency: some projects have a us...@a.o (plural) list, >others have u...@a.o (singular). I most certainly take the wrong one whenever >I >write a mail to some u list ;) > > LieGrue, > strub > > --- On Thu, 9/9/10, James Carman wrote: > > > From: James Carman > > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] >Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > To: general@incubator.apache.org > > Date: Thursday, September 9, 2010, 7:33 PM > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Greg > > Stein > > wrote: > > > The formation of your community is a BIG DEAL. Not > > something to > > > casually sweep under the rug. > > > > > > Partitioning the community between users and devs > > makes it very > > > difficult to establish a large, viable, sustainable > > community. > > > > > > If projects arrive at the Incubator with an > > already-built user > > > community, then sure. Create separate lists. But small > > communities > > > should (IMO) stick to a single dev@ list until you > > can't handle the > > > traffic any more. If you started elsewhere with two > > lists, but your > > > list traffic is still "small", then I would recommend > > combining them > > > when arriving at the Incubator. > > > > > > It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so > > I'm simply > > > recommending that all podlings consider the impact of > > dividing your > > > community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I > > believe it is > > > rarely appropriate. > > > > > > > And I'm all about consistency. Most (if not all, I > > haven't checked) > > ASF projects have separate user/dev lists. That's > > just how we do > > things. It's really not that much trouble to have two > > different lists > > and just subscribe to both (if you're a developer). > > That way, > > development "stuff" (votes, board reports, etc.) doesn't > > bleed over > > onto the user lists. I've always subscribed to both > > lists for every > > project I'm on. If users are interested in the > > development goings-on, > > then they can subscribe to the dev list. Some folks, > > like us > > "mentors", might not be interested in user issues, because > > we're > > really not necessarily capable of answering the > > questions. I don't > > want that junk in my inbox (or label/folder). > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
btw, regarding consistency: some projects have a us...@a.o (plural) list, others have u...@a.o (singular). I most certainly take the wrong one whenever I write a mail to some u list ;) LieGrue, strub --- On Thu, 9/9/10, James Carman wrote: > From: James Carman > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] > Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Date: Thursday, September 9, 2010, 7:33 PM > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Greg > Stein > wrote: > > The formation of your community is a BIG DEAL. Not > something to > > casually sweep under the rug. > > > > Partitioning the community between users and devs > makes it very > > difficult to establish a large, viable, sustainable > community. > > > > If projects arrive at the Incubator with an > already-built user > > community, then sure. Create separate lists. But small > communities > > should (IMO) stick to a single dev@ list until you > can't handle the > > traffic any more. If you started elsewhere with two > lists, but your > > list traffic is still "small", then I would recommend > combining them > > when arriving at the Incubator. > > > > It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so > I'm simply > > recommending that all podlings consider the impact of > dividing your > > community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I > believe it is > > rarely appropriate. > > > > And I'm all about consistency. Most (if not all, I > haven't checked) > ASF projects have separate user/dev lists. That's > just how we do > things. It's really not that much trouble to have two > different lists > and just subscribe to both (if you're a developer). > That way, > development "stuff" (votes, board reports, etc.) doesn't > bleed over > onto the user lists. I've always subscribed to both > lists for every > project I'm on. If users are interested in the > development goings-on, > then they can subscribe to the dev list. Some folks, > like us > "mentors", might not be interested in user issues, because > we're > really not necessarily capable of answering the > questions. I don't > want that junk in my inbox (or label/folder). > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 9/9/10 9:33 PM, James Carman wrote: On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Greg Stein wrote: The formation of your community is a BIG DEAL. Not something to casually sweep under the rug. Partitioning the community between users and devs makes it very difficult to establish a large, viable, sustainable community. If projects arrive at the Incubator with an already-built user community, then sure. Create separate lists. But small communities should (IMO) stick to a single dev@ list until you can't handle the traffic any more. If you started elsewhere with two lists, but your list traffic is still "small", then I would recommend combining them when arriving at the Incubator. It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so I'm simply recommending that all podlings consider the impact of dividing your community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I believe it is rarely appropriate. And I'm all about consistency. Most (if not all, I haven't checked) ASF projects have separate user/dev lists. We, at Directory, created the users mailing list 2 years *after* exiting from incubation. Until then, we had mainly interaction with developers, not users. Eventually, some of those early adopters became committers. In fact, it's hard to get real users before the project is well established. In restrospect, it was a damn good idea : having an empty user list gives your potential users a bad feeling. Once you have enough real 'users' (quite unlikely if your project is just in incubation without an installed base), then creating a separate list where you actually have daily posts is good. Consistency is one thing, being pragmatic is probably a better idea. So +1 to Greg opinion. my 2 cts... -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
James Carman wrote on Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 15:33:53 -0400: > If users are interested in the development goings-on, > then they can subscribe to the dev list. A standard argument against this: Having it in the same list makes it easier to pull users in to become developers. > Some folks, like us > "mentors", might not be interested in user issues, because we're > really not necessarily capable of answering the questions. I don't > want that junk in my inbox (or label/folder). Mentors should evaluate the healthiness of the community --- and that includes users support (whether by the developers or by the community) --- no? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
[PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
The dicussion of how proposals should be addressed might be a better issue for the Wiki page on proposals. It is off topic of this original proposal, and I vote that it be moved to a separate thread. We have agreed and noted to use a single mailing list for the purposes of this proposal. On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Greg Stein wrote: >> ...It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so I'm simply >> recommending that all podlings consider the impact of dividing your >> community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I believe it is >> rarely appropriate > > I think this sums it up best, totally agree with Greg here - including > making this a recommendation. > > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > ...It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so I'm simply > recommending that all podlings consider the impact of dividing your > community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I believe it is > rarely appropriate I think this sums it up best, totally agree with Greg here - including making this a recommendation. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > The formation of your community is a BIG DEAL. Not something to > casually sweep under the rug. > > Partitioning the community between users and devs makes it very > difficult to establish a large, viable, sustainable community. > > If projects arrive at the Incubator with an already-built user > community, then sure. Create separate lists. But small communities > should (IMO) stick to a single dev@ list until you can't handle the > traffic any more. If you started elsewhere with two lists, but your > list traffic is still "small", then I would recommend combining them > when arriving at the Incubator. > > It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so I'm simply > recommending that all podlings consider the impact of dividing your > community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I believe it is > rarely appropriate. > And I'm all about consistency. Most (if not all, I haven't checked) ASF projects have separate user/dev lists. That's just how we do things. It's really not that much trouble to have two different lists and just subscribe to both (if you're a developer). That way, development "stuff" (votes, board reports, etc.) doesn't bleed over onto the user lists. I've always subscribed to both lists for every project I'm on. If users are interested in the development goings-on, then they can subscribe to the dev list. Some folks, like us "mentors", might not be interested in user issues, because we're really not necessarily capable of answering the questions. I don't want that junk in my inbox (or label/folder). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
The formation of your community is a BIG DEAL. Not something to casually sweep under the rug. Partitioning the community between users and devs makes it very difficult to establish a large, viable, sustainable community. If projects arrive at the Incubator with an already-built user community, then sure. Create separate lists. But small communities should (IMO) stick to a single dev@ list until you can't handle the traffic any more. If you started elsewhere with two lists, but your list traffic is still "small", then I would recommend combining them when arriving at the Incubator. It is obviously a call for each podling to make, so I'm simply recommending that all podlings consider the impact of dividing your community when you ask for separate dev/user lists. I believe it is rarely appropriate. Cheers, -g On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 04:42, Robert Matthews wrote: > I'm with James on this one. Many good points have been made on this, > but we do have bigger things to worry about. > > > On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 08:06 -0400, James Carman wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:39 AM, dan haywood >> wrote: >> > >> > For the moment at least the dev community is more active (or at least more >> > vocal), so their mailing list should be the main focal point. As I said in >> > the other email, when we have more user traffic than dev traffic, then >> > we can vote to split them out. >> > >> >> Why are we even having this discussion? When did mailing lists become >> such a heavyweight operation that we have to discuss at length whether >> they should even exist? Just create the user/dev/commits/issues lists >> and be done with it. If nobody uses the user list, so be it. I think >> it's just more confusing to start moving traffic from one list to >> another. Keep things consistent. >> >> > And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that >> > it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having >> > with >> > actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) >> > >> >> The developers should be "listening" to the user list so that they can >> answer questions. They can't just hide in the dev list and not listen >> to the community. >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 08:11, sebb wrote: > On 8 September 2010 12:39, dan haywood wrote: > > > >> And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that >> it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with >> actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) > > In ASF projects I would expect that developers are subscribed to both > the dev and user lists anyway. Nope. I cannot possibly keep up with us...@subversion.a.o. Haven't been able to for *years*. There is an active user community that help each other out, including many of the devs. Just not me. For reference: * Subversion created its dev list in April 2000. * The user list was created in July 2003. 238 messages were posted that month. As you can see, we waited a very long time before sending users to their own list. Our dev list was very heavily trafficked by our users. It kept the larger community together until the point where they could safely work on their own. Cheers, -g - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 on the mailing lists issue. On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Pid wrote: > On 09/09/2010 07:15, Greg Stein wrote: >> Just to clarify: I'm assuming you're saying "+1 to the proposal", >> rather than to my comment. Correct? > > +1 indeed, to the proposal > > +1 actually, to the mailing list comment, too. > > The Incubator PMC might consider that establishing sufficient interest > which requires a user list is an indicator of a project approaching the > exit criteria, or at least, making substantial progress. > > > p > >> And to clarify for myself: I have no opinion on the proposal itself. I >> timed out after "Java" and the next few buzzwords. Thankfully, this >> proposal didn't say "framework" or I may have timed out after the >> first :-P ... my comments were focused on the community aspects around >> mailing list management, and successfully growing a lively and >> sustainable critical mass. >> >> Cheers, >> -g >> >> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 02:06, Pid wrote: >>> +1 (non-binding) >>> >>> Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. >>> >>> >>> p >>> >>> On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: +1 (Notbinding) On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks > wrote: >> ... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > Cheers, > -g > >>> >>> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide) http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving" - Albert Einstein "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less than your best." - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship "Stay hungry, stay foolish." - Steve Jobs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
I'm with James on this one. Many good points have been made on this, but we do have bigger things to worry about. On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 08:06 -0400, James Carman wrote: > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:39 AM, dan haywood > wrote: > > > > For the moment at least the dev community is more active (or at least more > > vocal), so their mailing list should be the main focal point. As I said in > > the other email, when we have more user traffic than dev traffic, then > > we can vote to split them out. > > > > Why are we even having this discussion? When did mailing lists become > such a heavyweight operation that we have to discuss at length whether > they should even exist? Just create the user/dev/commits/issues lists > and be done with it. If nobody uses the user list, so be it. I think > it's just more confusing to start moving traffic from one list to > another. Keep things consistent. > > > And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that > > it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with > > actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) > > > > The developers should be "listening" to the user list so that they can > answer questions. They can't just hide in the dev list and not listen > to the community. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On 09/09/2010 07:15, Greg Stein wrote: > Just to clarify: I'm assuming you're saying "+1 to the proposal", > rather than to my comment. Correct? +1 indeed, to the proposal +1 actually, to the mailing list comment, too. The Incubator PMC might consider that establishing sufficient interest which requires a user list is an indicator of a project approaching the exit criteria, or at least, making substantial progress. p > And to clarify for myself: I have no opinion on the proposal itself. I > timed out after "Java" and the next few buzzwords. Thankfully, this > proposal didn't say "framework" or I may have timed out after the > first :-P ... my comments were focused on the community aspects around > mailing list management, and successfully growing a lively and > sustainable critical mass. > > Cheers, > -g > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 02:06, Pid wrote: >> +1 (non-binding) >> >> Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. >> >> >> p >> >> On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: >>> +1 (Notbinding) >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: > ... > *Mailing Lists* > > kitty-dev > kitty-commits > kitty-user > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. Cheers, -g >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > 0x62590808.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
Just to clarify: I'm assuming you're saying "+1 to the proposal", rather than to my comment. Correct? And to clarify for myself: I have no opinion on the proposal itself. I timed out after "Java" and the next few buzzwords. Thankfully, this proposal didn't say "framework" or I may have timed out after the first :-P ... my comments were focused on the community aspects around mailing list management, and successfully growing a lively and sustainable critical mass. Cheers, -g On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 02:06, Pid wrote: > +1 (non-binding) > > Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. > > > p > > On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: >> +1 (Notbinding) >> >> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: ... >>> *Mailing Lists* kitty-dev kitty-commits kitty-user >>> >>> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the >>> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users >>> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the >>> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching >>> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -g >>> >> >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 (non-binding) Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. p On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: > +1 (Notbinding) > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >>> ... >> >>> *Mailing Lists* >>> >>> kitty-dev >>> kitty-commits >>> kitty-user >>> >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users >> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >> >> Cheers, >> -g >> > > > 0x62590808.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On Sep 8, 2010, at 1:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >> ... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > +1 for proposal: +1 for combined lists at this stage :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 (Notbinding) On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >>... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > Cheers, > -g > -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide) http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving" - Albert Einstein "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less than your best." - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship "Stay hungry, stay foolish." - Steve Jobs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 8 September 2010 12:39, dan haywood wrote: > And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that > it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with > actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) In ASF projects I would expect that developers are subscribed to both the dev and user lists anyway. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:39 AM, dan haywood wrote: > > For the moment at least the dev community is more active (or at least more > vocal), so their mailing list should be the main focal point. As I said in > the other email, when we have more user traffic than dev traffic, then > we can vote to split them out. > Why are we even having this discussion? When did mailing lists become such a heavyweight operation that we have to discuss at length whether they should even exist? Just create the user/dev/commits/issues lists and be done with it. If nobody uses the user list, so be it. I think it's just more confusing to start moving traffic from one list to another. Keep things consistent. > And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that > it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with > actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) > The developers should be "listening" to the user list so that they can answer questions. They can't just hide in the dev list and not listen to the community. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 8 September 2010 12:19, Robert Matthews wrote: > One point against this is that we have had a long-standing user list, ... > > ... People are used to > the user list already. We do, but it's going to change anyway when we make the apache mailing list available. > If we are going to combine the two then I > suggest we have a -user list now and let the developers grow out of > that. > I disagree; I think we should follow the precedents on other projects (Sling, OWB, MyFaces). For the moment at least the dev community is more active (or at least more vocal), so their mailing list should be the main focal point. As I said in the other email, when we have more user traffic than dev traffic, then we can vote to split them out. And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) Dan > > Rob > > On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 08:16 +0100, Dan Haywood wrote: > > Isis mentors: > > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, > > should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list > > for -dev and -user? > > Dan > > > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks >wrote: > > >>> ... > > >>> *Mailing Lists* > > >>> > > >>> kitty-dev > > >>> kitty-commits > > >>> kitty-user > > >>> > > >> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > > >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the > users > > >> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm > the > > >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > > >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple > > > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > > > > > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the > > > user- list IMO. > > > > > > Martijn > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > >
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 8 September 2010 12:16, James Carman wrote: > Isn't Isis a different bird though? It has been around for a long time and > is likely to actually have existing users > It has some, but not enough to be sustainable. Hence entry into the incubator to build both its user and developer communities. I think that for the foreseeable any new users we attract are likely to be early adopters, with a better than average chance of getting interested in contributing. One of the internal milestones for us ought to be when we get to the point that we vote it would be beneficial to split off a -user from -dev... that would be an indicator that we have enough "just users", and are moving into the early majority stage. There's another thing here too.. activity on the mailing list (even if its just the devs exchanging ideas) will give would-be users a sense that interesting things are happening. In contrast, a very quiet users list (which I think it would be) would be a turn-off. So my vote is just a dev mailnig list for now. > > On Sep 8, 2010 7:04 AM, "Benson Margulies" wrote: > > Well, we could neglect to tell anyone about the user list until we need > it. > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > > > >> Isis mentors: > >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, > should > >> we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for > -dev > >> and -user? > >> Dan > >> > >> > >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > >>> > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks >wrote: > > > ... > > *Mailing Lists* > > > > kitty-dev > > kitty-commits > > kitty-user > > > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the > users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm > the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > >>> This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple > >>> of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > >>> > >>> In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the > >>> user- list IMO. > >>> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> >
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
One point against this is that we have had a long-standing user list, and it is the developer list that is new and growing. People are use to the user list already. If we are going to combine the two then I suggest we have a -user list now and let the developers grow out of that. Rob On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 08:16 +0100, Dan Haywood wrote: > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, > should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list > for -dev and -user? > Dan > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sackswrote: > >>> ... > >>> *Mailing Lists* > >>> > >>> kitty-dev > >>> kitty-commits > >>> kitty-user > >>> > >> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > >> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple > > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > > > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the > > user- list IMO. > > > > Martijn > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Isn't Isis a different bird though? It has been around for a long time and is likely to actually have existing users On Sep 8, 2010 7:04 AM, "Benson Margulies" wrote: > Well, we could neglect to tell anyone about the user list until we need it. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > >> Isis mentors: >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should >> we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev >> and -user? >> Dan >> >> >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks>>> >wrote: > ... > *Mailing Lists* > > kitty-dev > kitty-commits > kitty-user > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >>> This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple >>> of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. >>> >>> In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the >>> user- list IMO. >>> >>> Martijn >>> >> >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Well, we could neglect to tell anyone about the user list until we need it. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should > we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev > and -user? > Dan > > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks>> >wrote: >>> ... *Mailing Lists* kitty-dev kitty-commits kitty-user Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the >>> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users >>> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the >>> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching >>> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >>> >> This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple >> of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. >> >> In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the >> user- list IMO. >> >> Martijn >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
My bad for possibly confusing things, then. Benson got it right when he raised that ticket in the first place. Dan On 8 September 2010 10:33, Gav... wrote: > The private, dev and commits list is all that has been asked for. > > See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-2971 > > so your fine. > > gav... > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: mwessend...@gmail.com [mailto:mwessend...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of > > Matthias Wessendorf > > Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2010 7:29 PM > > To: general@incubator.apache.org > > Cc: d...@haywood-associates.co.uk > > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > > > +1 especially since incubation is about establishing a developers > > community > > > > -M > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mark Struberg > > wrote: > > > +1 > > > > > > I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) > > > > > > I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do > > fine for now. > > > > > > LieGrue, > > > strub > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > > > > > >> From: Dan Haywood > > >> Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > >> To: general@incubator.apache.org > > >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM > > >> Isis mentors: > > >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being > > >> bootstrapped, > > >> should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined > > >> mailing list > > >> for -dev and -user? > > >> Dan > > >> > > >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > >> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein > > >> wrote: > > >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew > > Sackswrote: > > >> >>> ... > > >> >>> *Mailing Lists* > > >> >>> > > >> >>> kitty-dev > > >> >>> kitty-commits > > >> >>> kitty-user > > >> >>> > > >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, > > >> then splitting the > > >> >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You > > >> want to keep the users > > >> >> and developers on the same mailing list until one > > >> starts to overwhelm the > > >> >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you > > >> risk never reaching > > >> >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > >> > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done > > >> this with a couple > > >> > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > >> > > > >> > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have > > >> done without the > > >> > user- list IMO. > > >> > > > >> > Martijn > > >> > > >> > > >> > > - > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Matthias Wessendorf > > > > blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/ > > sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf > > twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
RE: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
The private, dev and commits list is all that has been asked for. See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-2971 so your fine. gav... > -Original Message- > From: mwessend...@gmail.com [mailto:mwessend...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of > Matthias Wessendorf > Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2010 7:29 PM > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Cc: d...@haywood-associates.co.uk > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > +1 especially since incubation is about establishing a developers > community > > -M > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mark Struberg > wrote: > > +1 > > > > I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) > > > > I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do > fine for now. > > > > LieGrue, > > strub > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > > > >> From: Dan Haywood > >> Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > >> To: general@incubator.apache.org > >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM > >> Isis mentors: > >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being > >> bootstrapped, > >> should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined > >> mailing list > >> for -dev and -user? > >> Dan > >> > >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > >> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein > >> wrote: > >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew > Sackswrote: > >> >>> ... > >> >>> *Mailing Lists* > >> >>> > >> >>> kitty-dev > >> >>> kitty-commits > >> >>> kitty-user > >> >>> > >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, > >> then splitting the > >> >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You > >> want to keep the users > >> >> and developers on the same mailing list until one > >> starts to overwhelm the > >> >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you > >> risk never reaching > >> >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > >> > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done > >> this with a couple > >> > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > >> > > >> > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have > >> done without the > >> > user- list IMO. > >> > > >> > Martijn > >> > >> > >> > - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > -- > Matthias Wessendorf > > blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/ > sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf > twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
+1 especially since incubation is about establishing a developers community -M On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: > +1 > > I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) > > I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do fine for > now. > > LieGrue, > strub > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > >> From: Dan Haywood >> Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] >> Kitty to Enter the Incubator) >> To: general@incubator.apache.org >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM >> Isis mentors: >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being >> bootstrapped, >> should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined >> mailing list >> for -dev and -user? >> Dan >> >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: >> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein >> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew >> >> Sackswrote: >> >>> ... >> >>> *Mailing Lists* >> >>> >> >>> kitty-dev >> >>> kitty-commits >> >>> kitty-user >> >>> >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, >> then splitting the >> >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You >> want to keep the users >> >> and developers on the same mailing list until one >> starts to overwhelm the >> >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you >> risk never reaching >> >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >> > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done >> this with a couple >> > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. >> > >> > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have >> done without the >> > user- list IMO. >> > >> > Martijn >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > -- Matthias Wessendorf blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/ sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
+1 I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do fine for now. LieGrue, strub --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > From: Dan Haywood > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] > Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being > bootstrapped, > should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined > mailing list > for -dev and -user? > Dan > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein > wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sackswrote: > >>> ... > >>> *Mailing Lists* > >>> > >>> kitty-dev > >>> kitty-commits > >>> kitty-user > >>> > >> Is there a large user community already? If not, > then splitting the > >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You > want to keep the users > >> and developers on the same mailing list until one > starts to overwhelm the > >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you > risk never reaching > >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done > this with a couple > > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > > > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have > done without the > > user- list IMO. > > > > Martijn > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should > we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev > and -user? ... Like Martijn and Greg I think that's a great idea. We ran Sling with just a dev list for > 18 months IIRC and it's been good. Same with Clerezza, also just a dev list, avoids fragmentation. Folks are sometimes shy about asking user questions on dev lists, I'd make it clear on the project website that that's welcome. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Isis mentors: Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev and -user? Dan On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sackswrote: ... *Mailing Lists* kitty-dev kitty-commits kitty-user Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the user- list IMO. Martijn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >>... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the user- list IMO. Martijn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >... > *Mailing Lists* > > kitty-dev > kitty-commits > kitty-user > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. Cheers, -g
