Re: a question about evim
>> those backup files would be silently evaluated AFTER the "real" >> files and basically inflict the previous config on them. > >Wow! That's some really poor script writing! I can only imagine a >loop like this: > > for i in /etc/sysconfig/networking/ifcfg.* I can't remember the details in the ifcfg case but in the modprobe case it involved mention of a directory with the "include" directive in modprobe.conf - all files in the specified directory are apparently processed... :-/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
NH & OSS.
I was perusing the wiki entry on the HB1197 meeting (http://wiki.gnhlug.org/twiki2/bin/view/Www/HouseBill1197), and noticed something: "Many of state's applications are mainframe based, most likely no similar packages." I'm not agreeing, I'm not disagreeing. But here's an interesting data point: About a year ago, I sent $100 to the dep't of state, asking for two months' worth of newly incorparated company filings. A couple of months go by, I get nothing. A couple more, I try calling. I even visit. Nobody says anything. Finally, I get my wife to call -- she actually speaks with the person involved: apparently, they switched databases from "mainframe" to "something else" (my guess: SQL Server on XP), and hadn't been able to run reports since then. "Would you like your money back?" I *STILL* haven't received said lists. Which makes me wonder if: a) The vendors are even kinda-sorta competent, and b) if there may not be mainframe-side stuff that OSS could offload onto Linux boxen at huge savings... IF the OSS vendor could actually -- successfully -- replicate the mainframe application's functionality. Stuff for you database/etc., gurus out there to consider. -Ken ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: NH & OSS.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 08:14:25AM -0500, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote: > "Many of state's applications are mainframe based, most likely no similar > packages." > > Which makes me wonder if: > a) The vendors are even kinda-sorta competent, and > b) if there may not be mainframe-side stuff that OSS could offload onto > Linux boxen at huge savings... IF the OSS vendor could actually -- > successfully -- replicate the mainframe application's functionality. In the meeting, this was discussed: the above note was not "There is no way that it could be replaced with open source", but rather, "There is most likely no complete solution to the problem already available". The former is almost certainly untrue (barring patents/proprietary interactions which can not be duplicated without consent of the vendor), but the latter is almost certainly true: I highly doubt that there are many people out there who have built high-capacity Health and Human Services transaction storage mechanisms, or what have you. The problems that a state needs to solve are oftentimes niche problems with no information on the solution required available to the "public at large" that is open source hackers. However, I am sure that given a list of requirements, most solutions could be duplicated in the open source world, especially if there was an incentive of cash to throw at it. So, the next step for evaluating that is the next step that the HB will be taking: Get the IT people in there to explain 1. What htey have and 2. What they need. -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Carn1v0re?
"Michael ODonnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > When Cryptography is outlawed then bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir Pelcgb. V ybir Rznpf. Z-k ebg13-zbqr, naq fhqqrayl V pna ernq lbhe r-znvy :) -- Frrln, Cnhy ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Memory lane Re: Process control and such
http://www.pdpplanet.com/They have a Tops-10 and a Tops-20 you can get an account on and login to.There are emulators out there too. And SCO released PDP-11 version 5,6,7 unix for non commercial use w/ source awhile ago. With source! I'm sure there are Vaxen logins available out there too.-- The Penguins are psychotic - Marty
Re: NH & OSS.
One thing I've noticed.. Government employees HATE change and will fight it tooth and nail. Example: Goffstown, NH (where I grew up and was very involved) upgraded the registration process for cars to computer. Before they would use typewriters. The staff was fully trained and given "quick guides" along with manuals. For over a -YEAR- people would come in. The same trained people would get "confused", pull out the full manual, and take FOREVER to find the answer. For a while they would even just go back and do it with the typewriter. They did this to protest against the new computer system, because they didn't like it. Eventually they hired a new person due to another leaving, the new person used the computers and ran circles around the others. Because they started looking bad, they finally "got it" and did it correctly. Ken D'Ambrosio wrote: I was perusing the wiki entry on the HB1197 meeting (http://wiki.gnhlug.org/twiki2/bin/view/Www/HouseBill1197), and noticed something: "Many of state's applications are mainframe based, most likely no similar packages." I'm not agreeing, I'm not disagreeing. But here's an interesting data point: About a year ago, I sent $100 to the dep't of state, asking for two months' worth of newly incorparated company filings. A couple of months go by, I get nothing. A couple more, I try calling. I even visit. Nobody says anything. Finally, I get my wife to call -- she actually speaks with the person involved: apparently, they switched databases from "mainframe" to "something else" (my guess: SQL Server on XP), and hadn't been able to run reports since then. "Would you like your money back?" I *STILL* haven't received said lists. Which makes me wonder if: a) The vendors are even kinda-sorta competent, and b) if there may not be mainframe-side stuff that OSS could offload onto Linux boxen at huge savings... IF the OSS vendor could actually -- successfully -- replicate the mainframe application's functionality. Stuff for you database/etc., gurus out there to consider. -Ken ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Verizon (FiOS) (Off Topic?) I have it!
"Steven W. Orr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I am running with RCN and I really can't complain in the slightest. You're the first person I've heard say *that* about RCN. > I get 11Mb/s plus they don't block me from anything. The catch > is that the won't block outgoing port 25 and incoming port 80 unless you > pay them an extra $20/month for "static address" service. So, *if* you pay them more, you get less freedom? That statement seems backwards. Why would they charge you to block ports? If I'm paying a higher rate for a static IP, I would expect better service and more freedom. Are you sure it's not the other way around. If *don't* pay them for a static IP, then they *will* block various ports? -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux NIS client to Solaris NIS server on another subnet
On 1/25/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Yes. Broadcasts on the 54 subnet won't reach the 48 subnet. > > That's a different statement than "the 54 subnet won't transmit broadcasts". > (sorry, I'm being pedantic :) Hey, quit cutting in on my territory! ;-) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
Jason Stephenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Yes, but I also have auto-save disabled. I've not used auto-save in > emacs in over 12 years! I have it enabled by default, but will disable it for certain buffers where it doesn't make sense, like an sql buffer that is a postgress command line :) > As someone suggested earlier, I use revision control (cvs in my case) > for all of my important files. That was me :) revision control doesn't save you if the power to you system goes away mid-edit thought... And auto-save buffer will help in that case. Auto-save buffers are also cleaned up every time you actually do save the file, so there's seldom a mess to clean up manually. > On a side note, I use vim when I "have to" or when it is more > convenient than emacs, like when logging in remotely to a server or > when making a quick configuration file change. I will occasionally use whatever 'vi' points to on a system for things like this. However, by and large, emacs is everywhere, and loading up emacs -nw in an ssh session on a remote system isn't to painful... -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: NH & OSS.
On Thursday 26 January 2006 08:27 am, Christopher Schmidt wrote: > The problems that a state needs to solve are oftentimes niche problems > with no information on the solution required available to the "public at > large" that is open source hackers. However, I am sure that given a list > of requirements, most solutions could be duplicated in the open source > world, especially if there was an incentive of cash to throw at it. > > So, the next step for evaluating that is the next step that the HB will > be taking: Get the IT people in there to explain 1. What htey have and > 2. What they need. Isn't this basically the purpose of the Government Open Code Collaborative? (http://www.gocc.gov/) This is the collaborative started by MA, RI, and a bunch of other states to essentially create a repository of solutions software for government, just to fill this void. Perhaps NH should be influenced to join the collaborative if they are having problems of this nature? There may not be a need for this stuff by anything but governments, which of course forces governments to outsource it or pay for the development. But there's no need for every government to essentially develop the same things independently and infinitely be confined to inventing rounder wheels. -N ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
On 1/26/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I will occasionally use whatever 'vi' points to on a system for thingslike this. However, by and large, emacs is everywhere, and loading upemacs -nw in an ssh session on a remote system isn't to painful... I remember when emacs was banned on systems because of its RAM use. Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping.What version of emacs do you prefer? GNU or X? -- A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster
Re: NH & OSS.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 08:41:55AM -0500, Travis Roy wrote: > One thing I've noticed.. > > Government employees HATE change and will fight it tooth and nail. s/Government employees/People/ Especially as it relates to technology. -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: NH & OSS.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 08:41:55AM -0500, Travis Roy wrote: > One thing I've noticed.. > > Government employees HATE change and will fight it tooth and nail. Trav, I think you made the right observation but maybe missed the set of people it applies to. Everyone hates change unless they see a clear benefit for themselves (or their families ) with the new way of doing it. Did the DMV(RMV) folks in Goffstown see any benefit from making the change? Did they get paid more? Did they get to work fewer hours? Probably not. And while their may have been some benefits to using computers, like it being easier to correct mistakes on a form on the screen as opposed to having to re-do a paper form on a typewriter, they may have actually lost benefits from using the computers. Speculative Scenario: For example at the end of the month accounting cycle, some of the folks may have gotten overtime to do the extra reports by tabulating information manually. If the computer now does that in a few minutes then the overtimers actually lost pay by going to the new system. Understanding what really motivates people is the key to getting changes thru an organization. People in jobs where better or more productive work is not rewarded have little incentive to do more than the minimum needed to keep the job. Some people are internally motivated to do the best they can, and others aren't. This may explain parts of the public education system. :-) > Example: > > Goffstown, NH (where I grew up and was very involved) upgraded the > registration process for cars to computer. Before they would use > typewriters. > > The staff was fully trained and given "quick guides" along with manuals. > > For over a -YEAR- people would come in. The same trained people would > get "confused", pull out the full manual, and take FOREVER to find the > answer. For a while they would even just go back and do it with the > typewriter. > > They did this to protest against the new computer system, because they > didn't like it. Eventually they hired a new person due to another > leaving, the new person used the computers and ran circles around the > others. Because they started looking bad, they finally "got it" and did > it correctly. > -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail "The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." - Brandeis To think contrary to one's era is heroism. But to speak against it is madness. -- Eugene Ionesco ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
On 1/26/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, by and large, emacs is everywhere, and loading up > emacs -nw in an ssh session on a remote system isn't to painful... FWIW/FYI: For quick edits, I find "jmacs" (The "joe" editor in Emacs emulation mode) is very fast and pretty featureful. It's available (although maybe not installed by default) on most Linux systems. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: NH & OSS.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 09:08:23AM -0500, Jeff Kinz wrote: > Probably not. And while their may have been some benefits to ^ there arrrghh-- fingers in motion before min 5 liters of coffee applied. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail "The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." - Brandeis To think contrary to one's era is heroism. But to speak against it is madness. -- Eugene Ionesco ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: a question about evim
Bill McGonigle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > So, I happily go over to Google, looks for emacs and svn, and I happen > upon this thread: > >http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2003-02/0315.shtml > > Almost three years ago - fess up Paul, you're an emacs/svn expert by > now, aren't you? Heh :) > Some of us could probably use some pointers. Well, I'd first start playing around with svn. The O'Reilly book is available at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ and the svn-users list is a great resource as well. If you're already familiar with emacs, then using psvn.el should be fairly straight forward. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: a question about evim
Bill Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Yes, the fact that backup files were being acted upon > > instead of ignored might be counted as a bug, but leaving > > junk lying around like that is still just basically rude. > > I'll have to disagree. I find it to be friendly. Perhaps > less so in the days of no subdirectories and a very limited number of > directory entries in the root of a DOS floppy, or if you know of some > standard file suffix that ends in tilde. To each his own. To leave around a backup file or two is common courtesy *if* there's a really good reason. To leave around multiple backup files for everything in that directory for no real reason is rude and messy. If there's a good reason, better to rename the file to something like: 'ifcfg-eth0.old-config-before-network-renumbering' Of course, that assumes your OS is capable of long file names. In the days of dos, this wasn't possible. In a case like that, it would be courteous IMO to leave behind a README explaining things. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Process control and such
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:38:07 -0500 Bruce Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's OK, when you get as old as I am, you forget what it was like to > be that young! > > Anyone remember RT-11, IBM DOS-26.2, the Illiac-IV, or even CDC's NOS? > How about an IBM-1410? [Yes, Bruce means THAT DOS. When a 1311 was a "big" disk.] Nah, I don't remember. -Bill Don't remember the IBM-1401 either, nor the Illiac I. Drum memory, now, and mercury-acoustic-delay-line L1 cache, THAT stuff was neat... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
[And NOW posted from somewhere the list knows; sorry for duplicates.] >> I will occasionally use whatever 'vi' points to on a system for things >> like this. However, by and large, emacs is everywhere, and loading up >> emacs -nw in an ssh session on a remote system isn't to painful... > > I remember when emacs was banned on systems because of its RAM use. > Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping. > > What version of emacs do you prefer? GNU or X? While we're on this topic, one the files that comes with EMACS [sic] that I love more than just about anything is /usr/share/emacs/21.4/etc/JOKES -- therein is all sorts of fun, but the funnest part of that file can be found in the following link. Enjoy: http://www.geocities.com/kensanata/ed.html ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux NIS client to Solaris NIS server on another subnet
On 1/25/06, Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 1/25/06, Paul Lussier < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I remember in the pre-Solaris 8 days we would always have a nis slaveon each subnet for clients to bind to which got the maps pushed tothem by from the master. This might be the work around we used. Build a slave that binds to itself and gets updates from the masterpushed to it using cron and ypxfer.I think I might be doing this too. Seems a shame to have a Sun box as a NIS slave (among other things) and a Linux client on a gigabit network all by themselves. As soon as I created a NIS slave on the subnet, the Linux NIS client worked.-- A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster
Re: Verizon (FiOS) (Off Topic?) I have it!
On Thursday, Jan 26th 2006 at 08:47 -0500, quoth Paul Lussier: =>"Steven W. Orr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: => =>> I am running with RCN and I really can't complain in the slightest. => =>You're the first person I've heard say *that* about RCN. => =>> I get 11Mb/s plus they don't block me from anything. The catch =>> is that the won't block outgoing port 25 and incoming port 80 unless you =>> pay them an extra $20/month for "static address" service. => =>So, *if* you pay them more, you get less freedom? That statement =>seems backwards. Why would they charge you to block ports? If I'm =>paying a higher rate for a static IP, I would expect better service =>and more freedom. => =>Are you sure it's not the other way around. If *don't* pay them for a =>static IP, then they *will* block various ports? Sorry, I misspoughk. I pay an extra $20/m for the priv of allowing incoming 80 and outgoing 25. -- Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like a banana. Stranger things have .0. happened but none stranger than this. Does your driver's license say Organ ..0 Donor?Black holes are where God divided by zero. Listen to me! We are all- 000 individuals! What if this weren't a hypothetical question? steveo at syslang.net ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > What version of emacs do you prefer? GNU or X? These days, Gnu, but only because I started using a lot of elisp packages which weren't correctly ported to XEmacs. I also found myself running emacs in screen sessions a lot, and it seemed rather silly to type xemacs -nw :) -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Process control and such
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:45:34 -0500
Bill KE1G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ben> Someone at last night's meeting (I already forget who it was) was
'Twas me. I knew I asked *someone* about it. :)
Ben> reporting an issue where they start some program from one window,
Ben> program opens a new window, then they close the first window, and the
Ben> program (new window) dies too. I've forgotten the details, too.
Ben> (Geez, only 28 and I'm already going senile.)
Right. It's bothered me more than once. One way to state the problem --
let's say you've discovered that you repeatedly have to do something.
You want to be able to launch it quickly and conveniently.
(My real use case was editing a frequently-used file, but to keep the
example simple I'll use xclock.)
The first thing you do might be to invent a shortcut which can be used
in a terminal window:
$ toc() { /usr/bin/X11/xclock & }
Now you can just type a command "toc". And your command runs, and you
can go on to do other things in the terminal window.
BUT.
What happens to the running command later on ... "depends".
IF you type "exit" in your terminal window the command keeps on running.
(Which is presumably what you want.) BUT if you close the terminal
window with the window-manager "X" button... both the terminal window
and the child command go away. The same kind of thing gets in your way
if you try to hook certain commands associated with terminal windows
to shortcuts in a window manager. Confusing, and a little bit subtle.
I've bumped into it several times in different contexts but I've never
been able to track it down. (This has been one of those Unix-y
head-scratching problems, "it must be documented *somewhere*, but
*which* F M do I R?")
Bill Freeman KE1G wrote:
KE1G> Well, I wasn't there for the discussion, but, yes, process
KE1G> groups are probably involved.
KE1G>
KE1G> Usually you don't have to think about this kind of stuff
KE1G> because you start such a program "in the background" by giving the
KE1G> shell an ampersand at the end of the list. The shell then puts the
KE1G> list (I'm pretty sure that it works for a whole list, rather than only
KE1G> for a pipe or a single process) in its own process group. Then, when
KE1G> the closing window sends the shell's process group a HUP, the
KE1G> background process don't receive it, and continue to run.
Bingo!
KE1G> If, instead of just backgrounding commands from the shell,
KE1G> you're writing some code that backgrounds itself or creates children
KE1G> that are intended to be persistant, then you do need to worry about
KE1G> process groups yourself. Check out the setpgrp(2) man page.
Ah HA. The good ol' setpgrp(2) F M. Of course! :)
Thanks, Bill!
(Seriously, it explains what's been going on, and for a couple of
years this has been an opaque puzzle to me. Now it makes sense. And
I'll probably even be able to solve the problem, as soon as I find
out how setpgrp() can be controlled from Python. I see that there
are Google hits for that. (It doesn't seem to be in )
-Bill (Sconce) N1BFK
__
Here's the man page's explanation, in case anyone else is interested.
(There may not be a setpgrp(2) man page on all Linux systems -- there
is none on mine.) ">>"s mark where the light dawned.
setpgid sets the process group ID of the process specified by pid
to pgid. If pid is zero, the process ID of the current process is
used. If pgid is zero, the process ID of the process specified by
pid is used. If setpgid is used to move a process from one process
group to another (as is done by some shells when creating pipelines),
both process groups must be part of the same session. In this case,
the pgid specifies an existing process group to be joined and the
session ID of that group must match the session ID of the joining
process.
Similarly, getpgrp() is equivalent to getpgid(0). Each process
group is a member of a session and each process is a member of
the session of which its process group is a member.
>> Process groups are used for distribution of signals, <<
and by
terminals to arbitrate requests for their input: Processes that
have the same process group as the terminal are foreground and
may read, while others will block with a signal if they attempt
to read. These calls are thus used by programs such as csh(1)
to create process groups in implementing job control. The
TIOCGPGRP and TIOCSPGRP calls described in termios(3) are used
to get/set the process group of the control terminal.
>> If a session has a controlling terminal, CLOCAL is not set and
>> a hangup occurs, then the session leader is sent a SIGHUP. If
>> the session leader exits, the SIGHUP signal will be sent to
>> each process in the foreground process group of the controlling
>> terminal.
If the exit of the process causes a proces
Re: Emacs
On Thursday, Jan 26th 2006 at 10:54 -0500, quoth Paul Lussier: =>Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: => =>> What version of emacs do you prefer? GNU or X? => =>These days, Gnu, but only because I started using a lot of elisp =>packages which weren't correctly ported to XEmacs. I also found =>myself running emacs in screen sessions a lot, and it seemed rather =>silly to type xemacs -nw :) Does anyone remember the good old days of running Unipress Emacs on the old aaa (Ann Arbor Ambassador)? That's where I first cut my teeth. I used to be able to make that emacs sit up and beg. Eventually, RMS's stuff became known to me and I learned about atoms instead of the really hardcore string manipulation that Unipress mocklisp went with. Also, I found a fun emacs timeline that was crafted by jwz. http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html Current .emacs equiv is about 52K before loads. -- Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like a banana. Stranger things have .0. happened but none stranger than this. Does your driver's license say Organ ..0 Donor?Black holes are where God divided by zero. Listen to me! We are all- 000 individuals! What if this weren't a hypothetical question? steveo at syslang.net ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
"Steven W. Orr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Current .emacs equiv is about 52K before loads. Wow, my .emacs itself is only 9.6K, but it has a lot of (load "myfoo") statements where "myfoo" is a .el file I wrote for a specific package. Most of those files are setq statements or the like. Added to the initial 9.6K, I'm upto about 41.8K. I don't know how high it would be if I included all the stuff the myfoo files include as well. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
DLSLUG Monthly Meeting - February 2nd
*** Dartmouth-Lake Sunapee Linux Users Group http://www.dlslug.org/ *** The next regular monthly meeting of the DLSLUG will be held: Thursday, February 2nd, 7-9PM at: Dartmouth College, Carson Hall Room 060 All are welcome, free of charge. Agenda 7:00 Sign-in, networking 7:15 Introductory remarks 7:20 OsiriX - Medical Imaging Software Presenters: Alex Hewitt and Bill Sconce Alex Hewitt and Bill Sconce will present OsiriX, an open source image processing software package for Mac OS X dedicated to DICOM images produced by medical equipment (MRI, CT, PET, PET-CT). Osirix is both a DICOM PACS workstation for medical imaging and image processing software for medical research (radiology and nuclear imaging), functional imaging, 3D imaging, confocal microscopy and molecular imaging. OsiriX has been specifically designed for navigation and visualization of multimodality and multidimensional images: 2D Viewer, 3D Viewer (all modern rendering modes:), 4D Viewer (3D series with temporal dimension, for example: Cardiac-CT), 5D Viewer (3D series with temporal and functional dimensions, for example: Cardiac-PET-CT), and data fusion. Alex and Bill have provided installation and support of Osirix, and even written a very little bit of code, to provide this Free Software package's capabilities to a small and growing number of medical practices in New Hampshire. Osirix is distributed under the General Public License. 8:30 Roundtable Exchange - where the attendees can make announcements or ask a linux question. Please see the website for links to directions. If any area companies are interested in sponsoring refreshments, please let me know. Please RSVP so we can give a refreshment sponsor a headcount. - MAILING LISTS There are two primary mailman lists set up for DLSLUG, an Announce list and a Discuss list. Please sign up for the Announce list (moderated, low-volume) to stay apprised of the group's activities and the Discuss list (unmoderated) for group discussion. Links to the mailing lists are on the webpage. Please pass this announcement along to anyone else who may be interested. - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-announce mailing list gnhlug-announce@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-announce ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Man, they'll try anything to hack your system...
On 1/25/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Oy.I almost never look at my apache logs. I probably should, but Idon't. Tonight I was perusing them and noticing the activity in the access.log and was amazed at the things these people try: I enjoy poking at any sort of logs for something connected to the net now adays. The sheer amount of SSH attempts per day boggles the mind. A week or so ago I setup a new box on a VMWare instance, and just forwarded port 22. *wham* Blions of login attempts from all over the world.. Thomas
Re: Verizon (FiOS) (Off Topic?) I have it!
"Steven W. Orr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Sorry, I misspoughk. I pay an extra $20/m for the priv of allowing > incoming 80 and outgoing 25. Okay, now that's more like it. Everyone I know on RCN is most assuredly not paying extra for anything :) And they all complain they can't use port 25 outgoing unless directly to an RCN smtp server. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
Good afternoon, all, As many of you know, I have two cohosted rackmount machines (2U each and possibly an external drive cage), one in Pennsylvania, and one at my office in Hanover. For different reasons, I'm hoping to get those to a new cohosting facility within driving distance of Lebanon/Hanover (I'm really tired of driving 9.5 hours for maintenance :-). In a perfect world, that would be less than an hour away, but I'd be open to Manchester or Burlington. Boston's a little far. I'm paying about $100/month already. I do need access to 64 IP addresses because of the virtual machines on the systems, and a non-trivial amount of bandwidth. Can anyone offer thumbs up/thumbs down to any local cohosting sites (price, techical strength, ease of physical access, availability of IP's, and available bandwidth)? - Valley.net (recently sold to sover.net; do they cohost at all? Montshire museum would be perfect! :-) - sover.net (do they cohost in brattleboro only?) - G4 - Segnet? - Others? Also, at the post GNHLUG meeting dinner, someone mentioned that there might be a cohost site in Manchester that offered half-racks (24U) for around $300? Does that ring a bell? If that turned out to be a reasonable approach, does anyone else have rackmount systems and interest in splitting part of a rack with me? Sincere thanks in advance for any leads. *smile* Cheers, - Bill --- "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." -- Abraham Lincoln (Courtesy of Eric S. Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) -- William Stearns ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Mason, Buildkernel, freedups, p0f, rsync-backup, ssh-keyinstall, dns-check, more at: http://www.stearns.org -- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 04:26:07PM -0500, William Stearns wrote: > Good afternoon, all, > As many of you know, I have two cohosted rackmount machines (2U > each and possibly an external drive cage), one in Pennsylvania, and one at > my office in Hanover. For different reasons, I'm hoping to get those to a > new cohosting facility within driving distance of Lebanon/Hanover (I'm > really tired of driving 9.5 hours for maintenance :-). In a perfect > world, that would be less than an hour away, but I'd be open to Manchester > or Burlington. Boston's a little far. > I'm paying about $100/month already. I do need access to 64 IP > addresses because of the virtual machines on the systems, and a > non-trivial amount of bandwidth. > Can anyone offer thumbs up/thumbs down to any local cohosting > sites (price, techical strength, ease of physical access, availability of > IP's, and available bandwidth)? > > - G4 We had a full rack from them at my previous employer: They always treated us well. They only ever had network issues when Verizon upstream completely blew up due to a 12 hour transformer downtime in downtown Manch. (Our hardware, on the other hand, failed daily. Hooray for crappy setups tossed together on a budget.) > Also, at the post GNHLUG meeting dinner, someone mentioned that > there might be a cohost site in Manchester that offered half-racks (24U) > for around $300? Does that ring a bell? The half-racks I heard being discussed were from Ben, by Colospace. Travis may be able to comment on that more in general. I mentioned 4U spaces available from Boston Data Centers for $100 just as a datapoint -- I don't know anything about them, but that's what they offered me. (Again, just a ddatapoint.) > If that turned out to be a reasonable approach, does anyone else > have rackmount systems and interest in splitting part of a rack with me? I don't personally have any needs at the moment, but it might be an interesting experiment to do this with GNHLUG: I know that we've had a lot of stuff offered to us from various places (like the hosting of this mailing list) but it might be nice to have a "GNHLUG" server, that could be used for other projects as well. (Of course, all things require money and time, but at least this way it could be more centralized.) I'd be willing to throw in a few bucks a month to support such a thing, especially if it would allow for running projects off it that might otherwise not be associated with GNHLUG: The PySig wiki, for example, which is currently hosted by me, could move to a centralized gnhlug location... Just an idea. Might even be able to get some hardware donated by a local mom and pop of some kind ... (Am I still allowed to participate in GNHLUG now that I live in Cambridge? ;)) -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
On Jan 26, 2006, at 16:49, Christopher Schmidt wrote: I know that we've had a lot of stuff offered to us from various places (like the hosting of this mailing list) but it might be nice to have a "GNHLUG" server, that could be used for other projects as well. FYI, that's in progress. Ben's donated a server and has threatened to set it up. MV has donated a rack space for it. Feel free to harass Ben about it on the -org list. Bruce and I got our barbs in at SNHU. :) -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
On 1/26/06, Christopher Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The half-racks I heard being discussed were from Ben, by Colospace. Yes. Sort of. M. Stearns had asked about colo. I mentioned Colospace, who have a facility in Manchester, NH. Somebody tossed out the figure of between $200 and $300 per month for "half a rack" there. That started me thinking: If a bunch of us LUG nuts each chipped in for a U or four of space, that could get the cost down to tens per month. This page: http://www.colospace.com/services/colocation.html indicates "half a rack" is 20 U. Assume $300/mo, and that's $15/U/month. Of course, I dunno how any of this would interact with Colospace AUP/TOS. And given that some (M. Stearns in particular) has mentioned "above basic" bandwidth usage, I'm sure the price will go up. But it's a starting point. Who else here might be interested in this? > I don't personally have any needs at the moment, but it might be an > interesting experiment to do this with GNHLUG ... Actually, this is already in the cards. I have a 1U server that is intended to be for GNHLUG's usage. In fact, I'm supposed to be coordinating this effort myself. Various things (including health, work, holidays, and good old fashioned procrastination) have contributed to me being grossly negligent about keeping the ball rolling. I hope to get into this further this weekend. (Right now, I'm busy at work upgrading our installation of Symantec Anti-Virus Corporation Edition for Windows. What fun.) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Verizon (FiOS) (Off Topic?)
Well Verizon showed up unexpectedly at my door today 9 days early to ask if they could get an early start on the install. I said sure. They were here for about 3 hours. Anyway, the size of the box just to hold the excess fiber here in the house is impressive! Size is about 12x17x7. Most of this box is empty space. There is also second unit 10x8x4, which is the converter from fiber to copper. Last unit is a 3x10x2.5, this is the battery backup unit. I do not see why they cannot combine these units together. At least the second two units, the installer also has to splice wires between these last two units. Last requirement is to have an outlet near for power. He will be back on 2/3 with the router and light things up. Sean ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Verizon (FiOS) (Off Topic?)
On 1/26/06, Sean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anyway, the size of the box just to hold the excess fiber here in the > house is impressive! Size is about 12x17x7. > Most of this box is empty space. Yeah, the major purpose of those things is to maintain the minimum bend radius. It is very easy to crack a fibre line if you bend it too sharply, and they are expensive, and hard to fix. > I do not see why they cannot combine these units together. I'm sure it's possible. But there are reasons not to, too. The commodity approach makes purchasing more flexible. A modular design simplifies logistics and lends itself to multi-use components. When it comes to battery packs, weight and shelf life also factor in. In fact, the battery pack is likely to be a standard part for them. Telcos run *everything* off 48V battery systems. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
Ben Scott wrote: >indicates "half a rack" is 20 U. Assume $300/mo, and that's >$15/U/month. Of course, I dunno how any of this would interact with >Colospace AUP/TOS. And given that some (M. Stearns in particular) has >mentioned "above basic" bandwidth usage, I'm sure the price will go >up. But it's a starting point. > > Who else here might be interested in this? > *waves hand wildly* $15/mo/U -- sign me up for one. That'd do a nice job of letting me get redundant mail/DNS, and is a heck of a lot cheaper than "other" places. AND would allow me to tweak my Debian how I see fit, instead of having to go with their pre-installed stuff. Of course, as an aggregate, we'd have to figure out how to cover those who might drop out -- perhaps someone trustworthy could hold the purse strings, and we could pay, say, $16/mo/U, and have a slush fund. Regardless, if critical mass can be met, I'm in. -Ken ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
I forgot to mention: In case this isn't obvious: This would be a "bring your own hardware" situation. And we're talking industry-standard 19" racks -- the "pizza box" form factor. So that old Packard Bell you've been using as a foot rest won't do. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
Tom Buskey wrote: What version of emacs do you prefer? GNU or X? I started with GNU Emacs, and I currently use GNU Emacs. I tried X Emacs for a while, but found it a bit odd in places. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
Ken D'Ambrosio writes: > Ben Scott wrote: > > >indicates "half a rack" is 20 U. Assume $300/mo, and that's > >$15/U/month. Of course, I dunno how any of this would interact with > >Colospace AUP/TOS. And given that some (M. Stearns in particular) has > >mentioned "above basic" bandwidth usage, I'm sure the price will go > >up. But it's a starting point. > > > > Who else here might be interested in this? > > > *waves hand wildly* $15/mo/U -- sign me up for one. That'd do a nice > job of letting me get redundant mail/DNS, and is a heck of a lot cheaper > than "other" places. AND would allow me to tweak my Debian how I see > fit, instead of having to go with their pre-installed stuff. > > Of course, as an aggregate, we'd have to figure out how to cover those > who might drop out -- perhaps someone trustworthy could hold the purse > strings, and we could pay, say, $16/mo/U, and have a slush fund. > > Regardless, if critical mass can be met, I'm in. I considered colospace about 2-3 years ago. At the time they quoted me 1U for $100/mo _plus_ 256kbps bandwidth for $200/mo. DOH! Suffice it to say they dropped off my list very quickly because of high bandwidth charges. They may have changed prices since then. $300/mo/20U probably doesn't include bandwidth, at least I'd be surprised if it did. Don't forget that at least 1 of those U's would need to be used for a GE Switch. Their locations webpage says they have a generator but doesn't mention site-wide UPS. You never know if it's not mentioned... Another 2-3U for a UPS may be needed, not to mention the one-time cost. I might be in for 1U if they've dropped their bandwidth prices since I last looked. -- Dave ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: [DLSLUG-Announce] DLSLUG Monthly Meeting - February 2nd
A very interesting and "specialized" meeting! Does anyone have contacts in the Med School to find out if there'd be interest from there? Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com On Jan 26, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Bill McGonigle wrote: *** Dartmouth-Lake Sunapee Linux Users Group http://www.dlslug.org/ *** The next regular monthly meeting of the DLSLUG will be held: Thursday, February 2nd, 7-9PM at: Dartmouth College, Carson Hall Room 060 All are welcome, free of charge. Agenda 7:00 Sign-in, networking 7:15 Introductory remarks 7:20 OsiriX - Medical Imaging Software Presenters: Alex Hewitt and Bill Sconce Alex Hewitt and Bill Sconce will present OsiriX, an open source image processing software package for Mac OS X dedicated to DICOM images produced by medical equipment (MRI, CT, PET, PET-CT). Osirix is both a DICOM PACS workstation for medical imaging and image processing software for medical research (radiology and nuclear imaging), functional imaging, 3D imaging, confocal microscopy and molecular imaging. OsiriX has been specifically designed for navigation and visualization of multimodality and multidimensional images: 2D Viewer, 3D Viewer (all modern rendering modes:), 4D Viewer (3D series with temporal dimension, for example: Cardiac-CT), 5D Viewer (3D series with temporal and functional dimensions, for example: Cardiac-PET-CT), and data fusion. Alex and Bill have provided installation and support of Osirix, and even written a very little bit of code, to provide this Free Software package's capabilities to a small and growing number of medical practices in New Hampshire. Osirix is distributed under the General Public License. 8:30 Roundtable Exchange - where the attendees can make announcements or ask a linux question. Please see the website for links to directions. If any area companies are interested in sponsoring refreshments, please let me know. Please RSVP so we can give a refreshment sponsor a headcount. - MAILING LISTS There are two primary mailman lists set up for DLSLUG, an Announce list and a Discuss list. Please sign up for the Announce list (moderated, low-volume) to stay apprised of the group's activities and the Discuss list (unmoderated) for group discussion. Links to the mailing lists are on the webpage. Please pass this announcement along to anyone else who may be interested. - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ DLSLUG-Announce mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dlslug.org/mailman/listinfo/dlslug-announce ___ gnhlug-announce mailing list gnhlug-announce@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-announce ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
On Jan 26, 2006, at 20:49, Dave Johnson wrote: $300/mo/20U probably doesn't include bandwidth, at least I'd be surprised if it did. Don't forget that at least 1 of those U's would need to be used for a GE Switch. It's worth repeating this number is based on rumor, speculation _and_ hearsay. Still, I could live with $40/U/mo if it included some reasonable amount of transfer. Maybe Bill Stearns' traffic will bump us into the next bulk category and the rest of our transfer will get lost in the noise. We'd probably want to fund a terminal server/remote power unit to share for decent non-driving management. I have a Zyplex with lots of serial ports but it only speaks telnet, so there would be need for a pokey ssh box in front of it, which might not be worth another U. Would we need a switch? That's a U. I think KVM is probably overkill. -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Emacs
On Thursday 26 January 2006 09:16, Tom Buskey wrote: > On 1/26/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I will occasionally use whatever 'vi' points to on a system for things > > like this. However, by and large, emacs is everywhere, and loading up > > emacs -nw in an ssh session on a remote system isn't to painful... > > I remember when emacs was banned on systems because of its RAM use. Eight > Megabytes And Constantly Swapping. > > What version of emacs do you prefer? GNU or X? GNU, just because X doesn't seem right to me. There are some things I've tried in X, but worked differently or not at all. And since I run GNU in command-line shells *very* often, I don't see the point in using X. -Fred ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
On Thu, January 26, 2006 11:54 pm, Bill McGonigle wrote: > We'd probably want to fund a terminal server/remote power unit to share > for decent non-driving management. I have a Zyplex with lots of serial > ports but it only speaks telnet, so there would be need for a pokey ssh > box in front of it, which might not be worth another U. Somewhere, I've got a power strip that allows remote access. Not sure what protocols it speaks. I think it's an APC, so that probably says something to someone. I'd be glad to contribute it for this project; I imagine poking around with the docs could get it up and running fairly quickly. [I, too, have an older-than-death Ethernet-to-RS-232 gizmo. Since it actually has an AUI port, in addition to the 10-Base-T port, I imagine it only supports telnet.] -Ken ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Cohosting around Lebanon - suggestions?
On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 01:05:22AM -0500, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote: > On Thu, January 26, 2006 11:54 pm, Bill McGonigle wrote: > > > We'd probably want to fund a terminal server/remote power unit to share > > for decent non-driving management. I have a Zyplex with lots of serial > > ports but it only speaks telnet, so there would be need for a pokey ssh > > box in front of it, which might not be worth another U. > > Somewhere, I've got a power strip that allows remote access. Not sure > what protocols it speaks. I think it's an APC, so that probably says > something to someone. I'd be glad to contribute it for this project; I > imagine poking around with the docs could get it up and running fairly > quickly. [I, too, have an older-than-death Ethernet-to-RS-232 gizmo. > Since it actually has an AUI port, in addition to the 10-Base-T port, I > imagine it only supports telnet.] Presumably this is an "APC Masterswitch." I actually wrote a perl script to talk to one of those things at Wedu. They're typically pretty simple: You telnet in, you can get a status of plugs, you can turn them off or on or cycle. We used it to do our heartbeat STONITH (Shoot the Other Node In the Head) step. Worked pretty well when we wanted to kill a machine and din't want to drive to the colo (even though it was only a mile away). It does only support telnet, and only 8 char passwords at that. (At least, ours does.) Note that this was determined by trial and error, and was not documented anywhere obvious. -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The rest of the world and geeks
On Wednesday 25 January 2006 10:11, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote: ... > > Pragmatically, I somewhat agree, but have to disagree in principle. One > of the most enlightening experiences I've ever had was jury duty: 13 of us > (including an alternate) sat through days of the most mind-numbing > testimony regarding real estate that I've ever heard -- or ever want to > hear. And yet these non-geek folks with whom I sat remembered the arcana, > the judge's instructions, and the testimony at least as well -- if not > better -- than I did. I have to say, it affirmed my belief in the jury > system, and put lie to the joke about being judged by people not smart > enough to get out of jury duty. I'm not sure your experience is representative of the usual fare in juries. On a past lawsuit my lawyer and I were engaged in, he made it quite clear that he was concerned about the quality of the jurors we might get. And many innocent persons in this country were convicted wrongly by juries, and some even received the death sentence. I hope I am never in the case where my life and limb has to depend on the outcome of what a jury thinks. Not a chance I would want to take. > However, the average Joe -- when not on jury duty, at least -- may have no > *desire* to go and learn all about the stuff you mentioned above. To say > that it is beyond them, however, I have to take issue with. I think you read more into that than I had intended. My point was more that they *should not have to* learn all of that. Technology *should be* easy to use, not require a PhD in arcana. Ideally, sending encrypted email should be no more complicated than hitting the "send" button. > Since said > "average person" has an IQ of 100 (by definition), I think it is improper > to state that it is beyond them -- any more than real estate transactions > are beyond me; while I know next to nothing about them, it's through > ignorance, not ability. And, yes, my eyes *did* glaze over in court. > There is a tremendous amount of knowledge in this world these days, and no one can be expected to know it all. Real Estate bores me as well, but if I *had to* learn it, I could. I just don't have the time, of course, nor the desire. Though, as a homeowner, by all rights I *should* know more than I do. But there are other non-geek areas of knowledge that I am warming up to -- not because I want to, but because I *have* to. I shouldn't have to, though. Nor should the "average Joe" need a PhD in cryptography just to secure his email, either. Now, having said that, I will also say this. I used to be a bit more "egalitarian" about the abilities of the "common" man, but hard -- and sometimes bitter -- experiences have taught me otherwise. We are simply not "equal" in intellect nor ability nor insight nor creativity. We all have various strengths and weaknesses in many different areas. Intelligence is more like a vector in a high-dimensioned space than a singular scalar number. As a hole, it makes for an interesting mix of possibilities with our fellow humans; an endless stream of variety. But even with that, to pretend or assume we are all unit vectors is a false assumption. -Fred ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Carn1v0re?
On Tuesday 24 January 2006 22:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The worst mistake is underestimating your opponent. How much > would the upgrade to that $5mm software package cost to get > the number/vowel substitution dictionary added on? > > Ok, I know, we need to define "cost", whether it's cost to > develop, cost to purchase in the commercial sector, or cost to > purchase as a black-budget government agency - simplistically, > just increase one order of magnitude for each, right? But > hey, this is anti-terrorist so cost is no object, just hire > Halliburton and they'll take care of it! Hey, it cost *far more* to "fight" te1101ism than it does to create it. In fact, perhaps it is the terrorist's very aim to bankrupt the US trying to "fight" the paper tiger. We don't get bent out of shape over the 41,000 death per annum on our highways. But blow up a couple of building and everyone goes frantic for years to come. The cost to do 911 and the handful of lives it took vs. the billions more to respond to that and the many more lives lost as a result. If I didn't know any better, I'd say the terrorists must be laughing their fool heads off at us. As far as the software is concerned, there are always legions of unsavory contractors willing to pull the wool over the paranoid eyes of our elected officials. As long as it has cool graphics, 3-letter acronyms, and smokes the CPU, that's all that matters. Well, at least until the merde hits the fan... -Fred ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
