[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
Well, Django doesn't really extend App Engine with more functionality, because you probably could do everything you could do in Django in webapp and vice versa. > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? Well, if you ask me that would be support from the Django community (at least for Django related problems), a lot of reusable apps that will be easily portable to App Engine (in many cases you only have to port the model definitions, the rest should work), and independence of the App Engine environment. And you can make use of many of the shortcuts that are provided by Django to avoid repititive work. I think the App Engine devs chose to support Django because it is a great and very popular framework, and providing it will attract a lot of people that have experience with Django. In principle, however, every WSGI-compliant framework could be ported to appengine. If I'm informed correctly, Guido van Rossum used Django for his Rietveld project. If you want to get as much Django-Appengine integration as possible, try the app-engine-patch: http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/ It even makes a lot of Django's generic views available in App Engine. Best Regards, Jesaja Everling On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Bobby wrote: > > Group, i'm starting work on an AppEngine site and i was going to use > Django (i haven't used it before), i went through the Django docs and > i saw lots of useful features but many exist already on the AppEngine, > such as database models and forms (through > google.appengine.ext.db.djangoforms) - plus the concept of urls and > views seems to be easily reproduced in AppEngine without much code. > > In addition to this i'm seeing that the Django admin site has been > replaced by the AppEngine data viewer which isn't as powerful or > customizable right now, so i'm not seeing alot of reasons to use the > Django framework (other than wanting to). > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? (i can > see at least two disadvantages in having an additional layer and added > configuration/maintenance). Was Django made compatible with the > AppEngine (through the Appengine Helper for Django) mostly for > allowing users to port their existing Django apps over or does it > actually extend AppEngine with added functionality? > > I'm probably missing something, right? Let me know, thanks. > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
Ah, good point about being able to make use of existing Django apps. Thanks. Bobby On Dec 15, 2:46 pm, "Jesaja Everling" wrote: > Well, Django doesn't really extend App Engine with more functionality, > because you probably could do everything you could do in Django in > webapp and vice versa. > > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? > > Well, if you ask me that would be support from the Django community > (at least for Django related problems), a lot of reusable apps that > will be easily portable to App Engine (in many cases you only have to > port the model definitions, the rest should work), and independence of > the App Engine environment. And you can make use of many of the > shortcuts that are provided by Django to avoid repititive work. > I think the App Engine devs chose to support Django because it is a > great and very popular framework, and providing it will attract a lot > of people that have experience with Django. In principle, however, > every WSGI-compliant framework could be ported to appengine. > If I'm informed correctly, Guido van Rossum used Django for his > Rietveld project. > > If you want to get as much Django-Appengine integration as possible, > try the app-engine-patch:http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/ > > It even makes a lot of Django's generic views available in App Engine. > > Best Regards, > > Jesaja Everling > > > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Bobby wrote: > > > Group, i'm starting work on an AppEngine site and i was going to use > > Django (i haven't used it before), i went through the Django docs and > > i saw lots of useful features but many exist already on the AppEngine, > > such as database models and forms (through > > google.appengine.ext.db.djangoforms) - plus the concept of urls and > > views seems to be easily reproduced in AppEngine without much code. > > > In addition to this i'm seeing that the Django admin site has been > > replaced by the AppEngine data viewer which isn't as powerful or > > customizable right now, so i'm not seeing alot of reasons to use the > > Django framework (other than wanting to). > > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? (i can > > see at least two disadvantages in having an additional layer and added > > configuration/maintenance). Was Django made compatible with the > > AppEngine (through the Appengine Helper for Django) mostly for > > allowing users to port their existing Django apps over or does it > > actually extend AppEngine with added functionality? > > > I'm probably missing something, right? Let me know, thanks.- Hide quoted > > text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
One note on portability, for example for retrieving all objects in the datastore, sorted, in Django one could do: Poll.objects.all().order_by(...) Whereas in AppEngine it complains that order_by isn't defined, and i have to use the AppEngine's version: Poll.objects.all().order(...) Also, when calling the following shortcut: get_object_or_404(MyDbModel, pk=my_id) It complains that pk is an unexpected argument. This is using the AppEngine helper (not the patch you linked to). I thought the AppEngine helper would make sure that the Django model methods would delegate to the AppEngine's version transparently but some seem to be missing - why is this? Bobby On Dec 15, 3:31 pm, Bobby wrote: > Ah, good point about being able to make use of existing Django apps. > Thanks. > > Bobby > > On Dec 15, 2:46 pm, "Jesaja Everling" wrote: > > > > > Well, Django doesn't really extend App Engine with more functionality, > > because you probably could do everything you could do in Django in > > webapp and vice versa. > > > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? > > > Well, if you ask me that would be support from the Django community > > (at least for Django related problems), a lot of reusable apps that > > will be easily portable to App Engine (in many cases you only have to > > port the model definitions, the rest should work), and independence of > > the App Engine environment. And you can make use of many of the > > shortcuts that are provided by Django to avoid repititive work. > > I think the App Engine devs chose to support Django because it is a > > great and very popular framework, and providing it will attract a lot > > of people that have experience with Django. In principle, however, > > every WSGI-compliant framework could be ported to appengine. > > If I'm informed correctly, Guido van Rossum used Django for his > > Rietveld project. > > > If you want to get as much Django-Appengine integration as possible, > > try the app-engine-patch:http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/ > > > It even makes a lot of Django's generic views available in App Engine. > > > Best Regards, > > > Jesaja Everling > > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Bobby wrote: > > > > Group, i'm starting work on an AppEngine site and i was going to use > > > Django (i haven't used it before), i went through the Django docs and > > > i saw lots of useful features but many exist already on the AppEngine, > > > such as database models and forms (through > > > google.appengine.ext.db.djangoforms) - plus the concept of urls and > > > views seems to be easily reproduced in AppEngine without much code. > > > > In addition to this i'm seeing that the Django admin site has been > > > replaced by the AppEngine data viewer which isn't as powerful or > > > customizable right now, so i'm not seeing alot of reasons to use the > > > Django framework (other than wanting to). > > > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? (i can > > > see at least two disadvantages in having an additional layer and added > > > configuration/maintenance). Was Django made compatible with the > > > AppEngine (through the Appengine Helper for Django) mostly for > > > allowing users to port their existing Django apps over or does it > > > actually extend AppEngine with added functionality? > > > > I'm probably missing something, right? Let me know, thanks.- Hide quoted > > > text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
The problem with built-in djangoforms and templates is that they are from Django 0.96. Django 1.0 has a lot of new useful functionality, it really worth the trouble installing it with your app. Another advantage of Django is that it allows to implement custom user authentication, this is especially easy with app-engine-patch. This was actually the reason I migrated my project from webapp to Django. Other than that, webapp is a very lightweight yet flexible framework. If it works for your project, by all means - use it! -- www.muspy.com On Dec 15, 6:58 pm, Bobby wrote: > Group, i'm starting work on an AppEngine site and i was going to use > Django (i haven't used it before), i went through the Django docs and > i saw lots of useful features but many exist already on the AppEngine, > such as database models and forms (through > google.appengine.ext.db.djangoforms) - plus the concept of urls and > views seems to be easily reproduced in AppEngine without much code. > > In addition to this i'm seeing that the Django admin site has been > replaced by the AppEngine data viewer which isn't as powerful or > customizable right now, so i'm not seeing alot of reasons to use the > Django framework (other than wanting to). > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? (i can > see at least two disadvantages in having an additional layer and added > configuration/maintenance). Was Django made compatible with the > AppEngine (through the Appengine Helper for Django) mostly for > allowing users to port their existing Django apps over or does it > actually extend AppEngine with added functionality? > > I'm probably missing something, right? Let me know, thanks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
> This is using the AppEngine helper (not the patch you linked to). I > thought the AppEngine helper would make sure that the Django model > methods would delegate to the AppEngine's version transparently but > some seem to be missing - why is this? > app-engine-patch does not try to replace appengine models. You end up with the same data access code as with the plain vanilla appengine. >From their homepage: Conceptual difference [with appengine-helper]: We don't try to emulate Django's Model because that's impossible, anyway. -- www.muspy.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
I like the Appengine Patch's approach the best so far, i think it's quite good. I'll stick with Django in hopes that eventually most of the missing Django features and apps will be ported over (either by the Django AppEngine-Helper or the AppEngine-Patch). Right now i've got nothing to lose. Bobby On Dec 15, 5:49 pm, Alexander Kojevnikov wrote: > > This is using the AppEngine helper (not the patch you linked to). I > > thought the AppEngine helper would make sure that the Django model > > methods would delegate to the AppEngine's version transparently but > > some seem to be missing - why is this? > > app-engine-patch does not try to replace appengine models. You end up > with the same data access code as with the plain vanilla appengine. > From their homepage: > > Conceptual difference [with appengine-helper]: We don't try to > emulate Django's Model because that's impossible, anyway. > > --www.muspy.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
Personally: I haven't used Python in a few years, and I've never used Django, though it looks good. Most of my recent web work has been LAMPish (including large structured OO projects in PHP 5). I've found the learning curve with GAE to be pretty immense but presumably worthwhile. I'm very impressed with what Google has done so far. Now considering the facts that a) lots of the "good bits" from Django are either included in GAE (templates) or don't work with GAE (some of the admin stuff), b) the version of Django that works out of the box is old (.96), and c) the workarounds for getting new Django to run seem like I'll be chasing my tail a lot since I'm not even sure how it's supposed to work in the first place... I decided to build my first projects using just webapp - no Django. This way I can familiarize myself with Django's template language and all the gotchas inherent in GAE itself. And hopefully by the time I'm ready to jump into Django, they'll have a newer version installed by default. This is MY current reasoning after dwelling on this for a few weeks given MY situation, which seems similar to the OP's. Your mileage may vary. This is an interesting discussion, though, and it would be helpful if anybody else with more experience would like to weigh in. These decisions may live with us for a long time :) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
Hi, On Dec 19, 3:13 am, boson wrote: > Now considering the facts that a) lots of the "good bits" from Django > are either included in GAE (templates) or don't work with GAE (some of > the admin stuff), b) the version of Django that works out of the box > is old (.96), and c) the workarounds for getting new Django to run > seem like I'll be chasing my tail a lot since I'm not even sure how > it's supposed to work in the first place... I decided to build my > first projects using just webapp - no Django. There's nothing magic about the workarounds. In app-engine-patch there's a sample project which gets you started immediately with the latest stable release. Everything that's need is placed in a folder called "common" and in order to upgrade you simply overwrite the old files with the new ones in the latest sample project. Done. > This way I can familiarize myself with Django's template language and > all the gotchas inherent in GAE itself. And hopefully by the time I'm > ready to jump into Django, they'll have a newer version installed by > default. I don't think that this is a good approach. While webapp does have a few features from Django the conceptual model is different. I've seen a lot of webapp-based projects that are totally unstructured. In contrast, with Django you can separate everything into self-contained apps and reuse code more easily. Moreover, webapp doesn't have sessions, pluggable auth support, nicely integrated i18n support, and so on. You still miss a lot of professional features. You can of course work around that, but this will be *your personal* solution. It won't be an official API. In Django those features have standard interfaces and all apps use those interfaces, so you can simply take some Django app, port the models, and plug it into your website. Webapp is no match for Django unless all you want to do is a simple just-for-fun application. Bye, Waldemar Kornewad --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
On Dec 19, 4:26 am, Waldemar Kornewald wrote: > There's nothing magic about the workarounds. In app-engine-patch > there's a sample project which gets you started immediately with the > latest stable release. Everything that's need is placed in a folder > called "common" and in order to upgrade you simply overwrite the old > files with the new ones in the latest sample project. Done. Like I said, it's been hard enough getting up and going with just GAE. Every additional piece is more configurations, more documentation, more forums, more possible bugs, more possible constraints, etc. It looks like the app-engine-patch developers (you?) did a good job bringing newer Django to GAE, and that is respectable. All I am saying is that I'm not ready to deal with it. If I had ANY previous Django experience, that would be another story. > Webapp is no match for Django unless all you want to do is a simple > just-for-fun application. Well this gets into a philosophical debate... Some great desktop and console applications are written in assembly language, and that does not reflect poorly on C or C++. Not every large scale web app requires i18n, sessions, pluggable auth, etc. Don't take my thoughts as criticism of app-engine-patch or Django -- we all must learn and use the tools that are appropriate for the job at hand. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
What about internationalization?. I didn't find anything in webapp (and there is in django). That was one of the most important reasons I'd go with django... On Dec 19, 5:00 pm, boson wrote: > On Dec 19, 4:26 am, Waldemar Kornewald wrote: > > > There's nothing magic about the workarounds. In app-engine-patch > > there's a sample project which gets you started immediately with the > > latest stable release. Everything that's need is placed in a folder > > called "common" and in order to upgrade you simply overwrite the old > > files with the new ones in the latest sample project. Done. > > Like I said, it's been hard enough getting up and going with just > GAE. Every additional piece is more configurations, more > documentation, more forums, more possible bugs, more possible > constraints, etc. It looks like the app-engine-patch developers > (you?) did a good job bringing newer Django to GAE, and that is > respectable. All I am saying is that I'm not ready to deal with it. > If I had ANY previous Django experience, that would be another story. > > > Webapp is no match for Django unless all you want to do is a simple > > just-for-fun application. > > Well this gets into a philosophical debate... Some great desktop and > console applications are written in assembly language, and that does > not reflect poorly on C or C++. Not every large scale web app > requires i18n, sessions, pluggable auth, etc. Don't take my thoughts > as criticism of app-engine-patch or Django -- we all must learn and > use the tools that are appropriate for the job at hand. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
> Like I said, it's been hard enough getting up and going with just > GAE. Every additional piece is more configurations, more > documentation, more forums, more possible bugs, more possible > constraints, etc. It looks like the app-engine-patch developers > (you?) did a good job bringing newer Django to GAE, and that is > respectable. All I am saying is that I'm not ready to deal with it. > If I had ANY previous Django experience, that would be another story. > You should really give it a try. I never programmed Python or Django before appengine and it didn't take much time to familiarise myself with all this new stuff. The flexibility Django gives you (compared to webapp) really worth a few hours spend setting it up and learning basics. -- www.muspy.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
Another +1 compliment for the Patch. It is a wonderful gift to the community. Waldemar Kornewald deserves big Kudos. Thanks - it rocks! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
On Dec 15, 4:58 am, Bobby wrote: > In addition to this i'm seeing that the Django admin site has been > replaced by the AppEngine data viewer which isn't as powerful or > customizable right now, so i'm not seeing alot of reasons to use the > Django framework (other than wanting to). > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? (i can > see at least two disadvantages in having an additional layer and added > configuration/maintenance). Well, that's exactly what I think of using Django in appengine. You don't get one of its most useful features (admin), and you have a bloated layer on top of App Engine. In my case, I use a lightweight and easier option called "webpy". It is very similar to webapp, the built-in GAE framework, but more polished, simple and complete (actually, it was the inspiration behind webapp). Check it out: http://webpy.org Luis --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
The MVC, self-contained, DRY approach offered by Django is what really sells it for me at this point (even with the reduced feature set on the AppEngine). I saw this great video from DjangoCon that really outlines this strength of Django: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-S0tqpPga4&feature=channel_page This promotes really good app design. There's alot of docs to go through to get Django running on the AppEngine (in particular if you're getting started with both), but once you have a couple of apps running then it's a breeze, i recommend it. Bobby On Dec 20, 10:36 am, luismgz wrote: > On Dec 15, 4:58 am, Bobby wrote: > > > In addition to this i'm seeing that the Django admin site has been > > replaced by the AppEngine data viewer which isn't as powerful or > > customizable right now, so i'm not seeing alot of reasons to use the > > Django framework (other than wanting to). > > > What are the main advantages of using Django on the AppEngine? (i can > > see at least two disadvantages in having an additional layer and added > > configuration/maintenance). > > Well, that's exactly what I think of using Django in appengine. > You don't get one of its most useful features (admin), and you have a > bloated layer on top of App Engine. > > In my case, I use a lightweight and easier option called "webpy". > It is very similar to webapp, the built-in GAE framework, but more > polished, simple and complete (actually, it was the inspiration behind > webapp). > Check it out:http://webpy.org > > Luis --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Django+Appengine vs Appengine
Hi, On 20 Dez., 23:15, Bobby wrote: > The MVC, self-contained, DRY approach offered by Django is what really > sells it for me at this point (even with the reduced feature set on > the AppEngine). I saw this great video from DjangoCon that really > outlines this strength of > Django:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-S0tqpPga4&feature=channel_page > > This promotes really good app design. There's alot of docs to go > through to get Django running on the AppEngine (in particular if > you're getting started with both), but once you have a couple of apps > running then it's a breeze, i recommend it. Exactly! Everyone should watch that video to get the basic principles of good code design right. This applies to every framework, but not all of them make it easy. Also, with app-engine-patch we try to take this a few steps further (in our next release): http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/wiki/SelfContainedApps Finally, the question is not *if* we'll have the admin interface, but *when*. The same goes for most other Django features. Make sure you *really* don't need them. Of course, if we get more help from the App Engine community we can get the rest of Django ported much faster. Even just a little one-time contribution would be *very* helpful. Bye, Waldemar Kornewald --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
