Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-11 Thread DSinc

Eli,
Pardon me for not responding sooner. You threw me a curve.
What you ask me about, I have never even thought of.
When I purchased, I chose to add a server to my LAN. Simple as that.

History:
My server came to me used with acceptable credentials, w/loaded OS, 
ready to 'play' with.
It came to me with a fully installed RAID5 array. It has essentially the 
very same RAID5 array now, except that today I have 2 hot spares in 
place.  I still consider this machine my local, in-home LAN server 
learning platform.


Yes, it does do what I consider important functions; chiefly, it runs my 
ESET Enterprise Server/RAS/RAC/Mirror needs.  Besides that, it is also 
my WINS server for my LAN.  Probably a separate topic!  It is NOT a 
domain controller (still under study).


It came to me with a functional RAID system which I had never 
owned/built.  I have learned much about the care and feeding of a 
commercial-grade (my belief) RAID system.. Thank you Collective!


But, yes, it is a SCSI U160 system.  Hence my Initial Pending 
Conversion.   I conjured that I might be able possibly convert from 
SCSI to SATA without a lot of cost/grief.  I am still looking at Bryan's 
shares and trying to comprehend the following discussion from yourself, 
Greg, Bryan, and Joshua.  All of which I read and try to follow.  Admit, 
much of which leaves me in the dust.  No harm, no foul. Thanks folks. My 
bad, not yours!


I could, perhaps, agree that I am playing with a piece of equipment I 
should never have come in contact with.  Fine.  Too late!  LOL!

Best,
Duncan


On 08/09/2010 23:39, Eli Allen wrote:

I don't understand why you want a raid controller.  Are you really
doing anything that is disk i/o bound?  or is it to keep from losing
data?  Would seem like almost any modern m/b with low end CPU would be
faster and you can just use the built in raid to do a mirrored raid.



On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:26 PM, DSincdx7...@bellsouth.net  wrote:

Bryan,
I will print and parse your suggestions.  Afraid I may be even more behind.
The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think this
is ServerWerz chipset/design).  Know this may be way past its' prime, but
this beast just will not die.
Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
Still learning.  I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.
  There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
Thanks,
Duncan





Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-11 Thread Eli Allen
My feeling is I hate servers (just talking about the hardware) unless
I really need one.  For most home use I don't really see why you'd
need one.

The main reason I dislike them is they are very loud.  But then there is:

RAID arrays that they come with really aren't so useful.  Are you
really disk IO limited or need a really large amount of storage
(greater then 2TB)?  Does downtime really matter?  A raid array with a
large number of drives will make the drives dies faster from all the
vibrations of that many drives (i.e. hot swaps add to this)  Why do
you care about hotswaps?  Sure a business may not be able to handle
being shut down but your home probably doesn't need to be up 24/7.
What is the chance of a HDD failing?  Not much.  So a mirrored raid
array of two 2TB drives should be good enough. If you're really
paranoid then get a third to keep in a static bag to plug in after a
HDD fails, not as a hot spare. There are off site backup services that
you can use over the internet if you really want to keep from losing
data.  If you're all Windows at your house the WHS (Windows Home
Server) may be worth taking a look at as its good at automatting
backups and sending it offsite.

Sure a real raid will be much faster and email alerts when a HDD
fails can be nice but you'll spend alot more money on it and is that
really your bottleneck?

I'm assuming you don't have lots of money to spend on this stuff.  If
its just about learning IT then the software is much more useful to
learn by doing and having (i.e. spending money on)  Either the linux
path which I'm guessing is cheaper or use the money saved from not
getting a pricy raid array to get a technet subscription which would
get you all the MS server software you could need:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/default.aspx

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:17 PM, DSinc dx7...@bellsouth.net wrote:
 Eli,
 Pardon me for not responding sooner. You threw me a curve.
 What you ask me about, I have never even thought of.
 When I purchased, I chose to add a server to my LAN. Simple as that.

 History:
 My server came to me used with acceptable credentials, w/loaded OS, ready to
 'play' with.
 It came to me with a fully installed RAID5 array. It has essentially the
 very same RAID5 array now, except that today I have 2 hot spares in place.
  I still consider this machine my local, in-home LAN server learning
 platform.

 Yes, it does do what I consider important functions; chiefly, it runs my
 ESET Enterprise Server/RAS/RAC/Mirror needs.  Besides that, it is also my
 WINS server for my LAN.  Probably a separate topic!  It is NOT a domain
 controller (still under study).

 It came to me with a functional RAID system which I had never owned/built.
  I have learned much about the care and feeding of a commercial-grade (my
 belief) RAID system.. Thank you Collective!

 But, yes, it is a SCSI U160 system.  Hence my Initial Pending Conversion.
   I conjured that I might be able possibly convert from SCSI to SATA without
 a lot of cost/grief.  I am still looking at Bryan's shares and trying to
 comprehend the following discussion from yourself, Greg, Bryan, and Joshua.
  All of which I read and try to follow.  Admit, much of which leaves me in
 the dust.  No harm, no foul. Thanks folks. My bad, not yours!

 I could, perhaps, agree that I am playing with a piece of equipment I
 should never have come in contact with.  Fine.  Too late!  LOL!
 Best,
 Duncan


 On 08/09/2010 23:39, Eli Allen wrote:

 I don't understand why you want a raid controller.  Are you really
 doing anything that is disk i/o bound?  or is it to keep from losing
 data?  Would seem like almost any modern m/b with low end CPU would be
 faster and you can just use the built in raid to do a mirrored raid.



 On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:26 PM, DSincdx7...@bellsouth.net  wrote:

 Bryan,
 I will print and parse your suggestions.  Afraid I may be even more
 behind.
 The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think
 this
 is ServerWerz chipset/design).  Know this may be way past its' prime, but
 this beast just will not die.
 Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
 Still learning.  I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.
  There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
 Thanks,
 Duncan





Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-10 Thread Greg Sevart
Keyword there is most. I've actually had pretty good results with Intel's
onboard Matrix RAID functionality, so long as you know its limitations,
namely:

1. No ability to set up e-mail alerts when a drive has failed
2. No ability to set reconstruction/rebuild priorities--it's always 100%,
which murders productivity during the process
3. No dedicated write cache for RAID5 and no BBU--but this one is fairly
obvious.

I have several real RAID cards at home (Areca, LSI) that I use for arrays
that have parity, but Matrix RAID does a nice job with basic mirroring or
striping, and I prefer it over software RAID. Interestingly, when you enable
write caching in an Intel Matrix RAID R5 array, which uses your system
memory and has no data protection via BBU, it actually performs fairly well,
reaching around 100MB/s sustained writes. Pitiful compared to the 1200MB/s
or more you can get on today's high-end controllers, but not bad for an
onboard solution. Obviously, you put your data at great risk using
write-back caching without a BBU, which makes it little more than an
interesting footnote.

On the other hand, I've seen other onboard RAID solutions (Silicon Image,
and especially nVidia) fail at RAID1 in the most fundamental way--everything
appears great, but it's not actually performing writes to one of the
members.

Greg

 -Original Message-
 From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware-
 boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Seitz
 Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:31 PM
 To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
 Subject: Re: [H] Pending conversion?
 
 Onboard 'raid' is like using 'mspaint' for professional photo editing.
Just
 because it's there doesn't mean you should use it.  Most onboard raid is
utter
 garbage and can end up doing more harm than good.  I would choose
 software raid over cheap onboard garbage any day.  In fact, software raid
 isn't a bad idea here Duncan, however you will need a 'server' OS like
 win2k3/2k8.
 
 On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 11:39:42PM -0400, Eli Allen wrote:
  I don't understand why you want a raid controller.  Are you really
  doing anything that is disk i/o bound?  or is it to keep from losing
  data?  Would seem like almost any modern m/b with low end CPU would
 be
  faster and you can just use the built in raid to do a mirrored raid.
 
 
 
  On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:26 PM, DSinc dx7...@bellsouth.net wrote:
   Bryan,
   I will print and parse your suggestions. ?Afraid I may be even more
 behind.
   The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b
   (think this is ServerWerz chipset/design). ?Know this may be way
   past its' prime, but this beast just will not die.
   Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
   Still learning. ?I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and,
think.
   ?There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
   Thanks,
   Duncan
  
 
 --
 
 Bryan G. Seitz




Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-10 Thread Eli Allen
Depends on the point of the raid controller.  I'm not saying its as
good as a real controller but if he only needs as much performance as
his old setup and wants the extra reliability then onboard mirrored
raid is good enough and sould be faster then what he has now.

Just because you can spend a much larger amount of money on something
doesn't mean you should.  You need to figure out what you're really
after.  File server in your home for media files with only a few
computers?  The slow WD green drives are plenty fast enough.  I use
two 1TB WD green drives using the raid built into the motherboard to
span them for my media center box and thats plenty fast enough.



On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Bryan Seitz se...@bsd-unix.net wrote:
 Onboard 'raid' is like using 'mspaint' for professional photo editing.  Just 
 because it's there
 doesn't mean you should use it.  Most onboard raid is utter garbage and can 
 end up doing more
 harm than good.  I would choose software raid over cheap onboard garbage any 
 day.  In fact, software
 raid isn't a bad idea here Duncan, however you will need a 'server' OS like 
 win2k3/2k8.

 On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 11:39:42PM -0400, Eli Allen wrote:
 I don't understand why you want a raid controller.  Are you really
 doing anything that is disk i/o bound?  or is it to keep from losing
 data?  Would seem like almost any modern m/b with low end CPU would be
 faster and you can just use the built in raid to do a mirrored raid.



 On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:26 PM, DSinc dx7...@bellsouth.net wrote:
  Bryan,
  I will print and parse your suggestions. ?Afraid I may be even more behind.
  The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think this
  is ServerWerz chipset/design). ?Know this may be way past its' prime, but
  this beast just will not die.
  Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
  Still learning. ?I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.
  ?There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
  Thanks,
  Duncan
 

 --

 Bryan G. Seitz



Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-10 Thread Joshua MacCraw

Testing...


Seems Thunderbird has taken to posting/responding here using my other 
account when I hit reply? Was wondering why it seemed like I was not 
involved in the conversation!


Now to figure out why the Delivered-To: is not the account I reply from...




[H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread DSinc
I have a very nice, perhaps, antique, W2K server.  It trucks on just 
fine ATM. Certainly I can not afford to replace it with current new 
hardware.  Yes, I can just retire/junk it!  Might lower my yearly KVM 
bill even.  I just do not see why ATM...


LOL! (Stop laughing Bryan!)  MS Updates have stoppedSO,

My server is now behind. NOMO MS security business. ...Understand EOL in 
all of its' interpretations. Please do not preach!


My Server's OS is EOL.  Fine. I do not believe my Server hdw is EOL by a 
long shot.  Well, unless the collective convinces me otherwise!  I am 
willing to listen; if focused upon my project at hand.


I would like to upgrade the base server hdw to WinXP.  I believe I know 
what I need to do with all the data on the on-board RAID-5.  The RAID-5 
is SCSI U160 SC80.  Yes, it can be fully retired.(tired of 
buying disks and paying TIM tickets when I goof, or, another goof 
happens. :)


I am thinking of :

a- yanking the Adaptec 3200S SCSI RAID card.  To be replaced w/some form 
of SATA RAID card.  My recent research tells me the WinXP might 
recognize this old card any longer?


SO, (Stop lalughing, Bryan!)

b. I will wash/retire all 5 of my SC80 18MB (10-15Krpm) hard drives. 
Suitable SATA replacement will be purchased..(I knew this day would 
come!)


Stop laughing, Bryan!!!

c. Yank the U160 SCSI Interface card off my RAID cage.  Replace it with 
whatever cabling necessary to re-connect the RAID cage to my pending NEW 
SATA Raid card (a).


d. Installing my current WinXP O/S.  Pray that IT may sorta do some 
Server duties...?


Do the wizards of the collective think this is a good plan?

Please do not preach Vista at me.
Please do not preach Win7 at me. That is a possibility only if I hit 
some lottery!

I have WinXP pro only.
I may consider Debian Linux(except I fear the learning curve ATM!)

Bryan! Stop laughing!! :)
Best,
Duncan


Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread Bryan Seitz
Comments inline:

On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 02:56:09PM -0400, DSinc wrote:
 I have a very nice, perhaps, antique, W2K server.  It trucks on just 
 fine ATM. Certainly I can not afford to replace it with current new 
 hardware.  Yes, I can just retire/junk it!  Might lower my yearly KVM 
 bill even.  I just do not see why ATM...
 
 My server is now behind. NOMO MS security business. ...Understand EOL in 
 all of its' interpretations. Please do not preach!
 
 My Server's OS is EOL.  Fine. I do not believe my Server hdw is EOL by a 
 long shot.  Well, unless the collective convinces me otherwise!  I am 
 willing to listen; if focused upon my project at hand.
 
 I would like to upgrade the base server hdw to WinXP.  I believe I know 
 what I need to do with all the data on the on-board RAID-5.  The RAID-5 
 is SCSI U160 SC80.  Yes, it can be fully retired.(tired of 
 buying disks and paying TIM tickets when I goof, or, another goof 
 happens. :)
 
 I am thinking of :
 
 a- yanking the Adaptec 3200S SCSI RAID card.  To be replaced w/some form 
 of SATA RAID card.  My recent research tells me the WinXP might 
 recognize this old card any longer?
 
 SO, (Stop lalughing, Bryan!)
 
 b. I will wash/retire all 5 of my SC80 18MB (10-15Krpm) hard drives. 
 Suitable SATA replacement will be purchased..(I knew this day would 
 come!)

Hmm... Sata raid isnt a bad choice as long as you get a decent controller.  
3Ware isn't a bad bet
for consumer applications.  The only issue is, what type of PCI slots do you 
have, certainly no PCI-E.
Any PCI-X ?  That being said, the cheapest PCI-X 3ware on newegg was only 4 
ports @ $309.

3Ware:
PCI-X:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116052

Areca:
PCI-X:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816131001 


Adaptec:
PCI-X:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816103009

On the lower end you have:

PCI:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115030


 d. Installing my current WinXP O/S.  Pray that IT may sorta do some 
 Server duties...?

Depends on what you need... for a simple file server, XP is probably fine.

 Please do not preach Vista at me.
Hell no.

 Please do not preach Win7 at me. That is a possibility only if I hit 
 some lottery!

Hell no for a server, I actually like it on a modern desktop though.

 I may consider Debian Linux(except I fear the learning curve ATM!)

It's higher than you probably want/need, unless you have someone local to teach.

-- 
 
Bryan G. Seitz


Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread Bryan Seitz
Yeah, conclusion: wait until it's time (when you can afford) to replace the box 
entirely :)

On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 04:46:15PM -0700, FORC5 wrote:
 cheaper/better to update the MB IMO
 fp
 
 At 12:17 PM 8/9/2010, Bryan Seitz Poked the stick with:
 Hmm... Sata raid isnt a bad choice as long as you get a decent controller.  
 3Ware isn't a bad bet
 for consumer applications.  The only issue is, what type of PCI slots do you 
 have, certainly no PCI-E.
 Any PCI-X ?  That being said, the cheapest PCI-X 3ware on newegg was only 4 
 ports @ $309.
 
 -- 
 Tallyho ! ]:8)
 Taglines below !
 --
 Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights.

-- 
 
Bryan G. Seitz


Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread DSinc

Bryan,
I will print and parse your suggestions.  Afraid I may be even more behind.
The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think 
this is ServerWerz chipset/design).  Know this may be way past its' 
prime, but this beast just will not die.

Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
Still learning.  I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think. 
 There are a few times when Technology can just suck!

Thanks,
Duncan


On 08/09/2010 15:17, Bryan Seitz wrote:

Comments inline:

On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 02:56:09PM -0400, DSinc wrote:

I have a very nice, perhaps, antique, W2K server.  It trucks on just
fine ATM. Certainly I can not afford to replace it with current new
hardware.  Yes, I can just retire/junk it!  Might lower my yearly KVM
bill even.  I just do not see why ATM...

My server is now behind. NOMO MS security business. ...Understand EOL in
all of its' interpretations. Please do not preach!

My Server's OS is EOL.  Fine. I do not believe my Server hdw is EOL by a
long shot.  Well, unless the collective convinces me otherwise!  I am
willing to listen; if focused upon my project at hand.

I would like to upgrade the base server hdw to WinXP.  I believe I know
what I need to do with all the data on the on-board RAID-5.  The RAID-5
is SCSI U160 SC80.  Yes, it can be fully retired.(tired of
buying disks and paying TIM tickets when I goof, or, another goof
happens. :)

I am thinking of :

a- yanking the Adaptec 3200S SCSI RAID card.  To be replaced w/some form
of SATA RAID card.  My recent research tells me the WinXP might
recognize this old card any longer?

SO, (Stop lalughing, Bryan!)

b. I will wash/retire all 5 of my SC80 18MB (10-15Krpm) hard drives.
Suitable SATA replacement will be purchased..(I knew this day would
come!)


Hmm... Sata raid isnt a bad choice as long as you get a decent controller.  
3Ware isn't a bad bet
for consumer applications.  The only issue is, what type of PCI slots do you 
have, certainly no PCI-E.
Any PCI-X ?  That being said, the cheapest PCI-X 3ware on newegg was only 4 
ports @ $309.

3Ware:
PCI-X:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116052

Areca:
PCI-X:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816131001


Adaptec:
PCI-X:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816103009

On the lower end you have:

PCI:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115030



d. Installing my current WinXP O/S.  Pray that IT may sorta do some
Server duties...?


Depends on what you need... for a simple file server, XP is probably fine.


Please do not preach Vista at me.

Hell no.


Please do not preach Win7 at me. That is a possibility only if I hit
some lottery!


Hell no for a server, I actually like it on a modern desktop though.


I may consider Debian Linux(except I fear the learning curve ATM!)


It's higher than you probably want/need, unless you have someone local to teach.



Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread FORC5
sometimes I think blown caps were a blessing in disguise forcing updating :-[

I know my bad
fp
At 07:26 PM 8/9/2010, DSinc Poked the stick with:
Bryan,
I will print and parse your suggestions.  Afraid I may be even more behind.
The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think this is 
ServerWerz chipset/design).  Know this may be way past its' prime, but this 
beast just will not die.
Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
Still learning.  I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.  
There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
Thanks,
Duncan

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Do health nuts die of nothing?



Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread DSinc

FORC5,
On this I can agree.  Probably why it takes me 10 minutes to dig through 
a support site for a m/b.

I still recall most of the detailed shares here about the capacitor issue.
Sadly, it continues to pop up in 'older' machines.   I still watch for 
puffed caps


Don't know whose caps were used in my Server m/b. I check them about 
every 6mo during PM.  Never seen a bad one. Even on the VR module. This 
old dog is really built well.  I am still impressed with it after 6 
years; and, I know it was in service years before I got it..

Best,
Duncan


On 08/09/2010 22:47, FORC5 wrote:

sometimes I think blown caps were a blessing in disguise forcing updating :-[

I know my bad
fp
At 07:26 PM 8/9/2010, DSinc Poked the stick with:

Bryan,
I will print and parse your suggestions.  Afraid I may be even more behind.
The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think this is 
ServerWerz chipset/design).  Know this may be way past its' prime, but this 
beast just will not die.
Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
Still learning.  I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.  There 
are a few times when Technology can just suck!
Thanks,
Duncan




Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread Eli Allen
I don't understand why you want a raid controller.  Are you really
doing anything that is disk i/o bound?  or is it to keep from losing
data?  Would seem like almost any modern m/b with low end CPU would be
faster and you can just use the built in raid to do a mirrored raid.



On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:26 PM, DSinc dx7...@bellsouth.net wrote:
 Bryan,
 I will print and parse your suggestions.  Afraid I may be even more behind.
 The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think this
 is ServerWerz chipset/design).  Know this may be way past its' prime, but
 this beast just will not die.
 Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
 Still learning.  I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.
  There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
 Thanks,
 Duncan



Re: [H] Pending conversion?

2010-08-09 Thread Bryan Seitz
Onboard 'raid' is like using 'mspaint' for professional photo editing.  Just 
because it's there
doesn't mean you should use it.  Most onboard raid is utter garbage and can end 
up doing more 
harm than good.  I would choose software raid over cheap onboard garbage any 
day.  In fact, software
raid isn't a bad idea here Duncan, however you will need a 'server' OS like 
win2k3/2k8.

On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 11:39:42PM -0400, Eli Allen wrote:
 I don't understand why you want a raid controller.  Are you really
 doing anything that is disk i/o bound?  or is it to keep from losing
 data?  Would seem like almost any modern m/b with low end CPU would be
 faster and you can just use the built in raid to do a mirrored raid.
 
 
 
 On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:26 PM, DSinc dx7...@bellsouth.net wrote:
  Bryan,
  I will print and parse your suggestions. ?Afraid I may be even more behind.
  The best I can offer are PCI-66 slots on an old Intel STL2 m/b (think this
  is ServerWerz chipset/design). ?Know this may be way past its' prime, but
  this beast just will not die.
  Yes, I may be trying to beat a horse that ain't quite dead yet.
  Still learning. ?I'll get back to you. Let me parse, absorb, and, think.
  ?There are a few times when Technology can just suck!
  Thanks,
  Duncan
 

-- 
 
Bryan G. Seitz