Re: [vote] Graduate Apache Harmony podling from the Incubator
Hi Folks, Sorry for the delay. [ +1] Graduate Apache Harmony from incubation, and let it petition the board for Top Level Project status -- dims -- Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers)
Re: [VOTE] Acceptance of Harmony-528 : AWT, Java2D and Swing
+1 On 6/5/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received the ACQs and the BCC for Harmony-528, so I can assert that the critical provenance paperwork is in order and in SVN. Please vote to accept or reject this codebase into the Apache Harmony class library : [ ] + 1 Accept [ ] -1 Reject (provide reason below) Lets let this run a minimum of 3 days unless a) someone states they need more time or b) we get all committer votes before then. Again, I think that getting this into SVN and letting people supply patches against SVN will be productive. Also, there's a lot of excitement around getting this in and a binary snapshot created... geir - Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ - Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Happy Birthday Harmony!
So where are the gifts? :) -- dims On 5/18/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Today is Harmony's 1st birthday :) geir - Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ - Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DRLVM contribution - try this out!
AWESOME On 5/3/06, Andrey Chernyshev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, I'm happy to announce the contribution of the DRL Virtual Machine on behalf of Intel. I have described in the bottom of this message how you can try it for yourself. The code is a result of efforts of Intel Middleware Products Division team. The archive with the contribution is uploaded to the following location: http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-438 The issue contains two zip archives: DRLVM_src_20060502_1806_Harmony.zip - The DRLVM source code contribution, containing the following components: VM (or VM core) GC JIT Bytecode verifier Kernel classes OS layer DRLVM_src_20060502_1806_Patches_for_Harmony.zip - A few patches that should be applied to Harmony class libraries in order to integrate them with DRLVM. We checked that the JRE combined from the DRLVM and the Harmony class libraries is capable of running Eclipse and Ant. It was tested with Harmony classes taken at 03/13 (plus some contributions existed to that date, such as HARMONY-39 and HARMONY-88) on Windows and Linux IA32. The building system included with the DRLVM is entirely written on Ant and is capable of producing a workable JRE combined from DRLVM and Harmony class libraries (we have intentionally included the compilation of class libraries code into the DRLVM building system to give an example how the native code for the complex multi-component project can be built with Ant). Both VM and Class Libraries can be built with MSVC or Intel C compiler on Windows and gcc or Intel C compiler on Linux IA32. Eclipse 3.1.1 compiler is used for compiling the Java code. DRLVM communicates with the Harmony class libraries through the set of kernel classes and VMI interface, as described in the Harmony Class Library Porting Documentation. We had to add the java.lang.SringBuffer into the kernel classes set for now since it is tighten to the java.lang.String in our implementation. The DRLVM is not yet a complete full-functional product, there is a plenty of things to do such as 1.5 support or missing some of JVMTI/JNI capabilities. Please refer to the README.txt and Developers Guide (located in the 'doc' directory) provided with the contribution. However, we hope that the existing VM implementation, in conjunction with the Harmony class libraries and Eclipse, at least should be able to provide the self-hosting environment where developers can edit, compile and run Java code using Eclipse, execute Ant (you can try to rebuild the DRLVM and Harmony class libraries by executing it's Ant building system on top of the previously built DRLVM image). IMPORTANT NOTE: the building system, by default, downloads all the necessary software and libraries such as Eclipse, APR, LogCXX or zlib directly from the Internet, BY RUNNING THE DRLVM BUILD YOU ARE ACCEPTING THE LICENSE TERMS for the software and libraries used for the DRLVM compilation and linking. Please refer to the README.txt provided with the contribution for more detailed information how to build DRLVM and which software/libraries are used for that. HOW TO TRY IT: To build the DRLVM, just extract the both zip archives into the same directory, set ANT_HOME and JAVA_HOME, run the build update and then build. See the README.txt for more details, including the software required (you'll need some JRE, C/C++ compiler, Ant and Svn tool to checkout classlibs). Note that the DRLVM may not work with the most recent version of Harmony class libraries since the latter is constantly changing (the last version of classes we were adopting the DRLVM for was taken at 03/13). Some work will still be needed to integrate it with the most recent version of the class libraries. You are welcome to try it and share your opinion! Thank you, Andrey Chernyshev Intel Middleware Products Division - Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ - Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how to build Harmony on Windows (with minimum of commercial soft)
Folks, Have u seen this site[1]? I was able to get VC++6.0 Processor pack from here[2] and open it using 7-zip[3]. Here's the ml.exe output. C:\DOWNLOAD\MASM32ml.exe Microsoft (R) Macro Assembler Version 6.15.8803 Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp 1981-2000. All rights reserved. usage: ML [ options ] filelist [ /link linkoptions] Run ML /help or ML /? for more info [1] http://users.easystreet.com/jkirwan/new/pctools.html [2] http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/downloads/tools/ppack/default.aspx [3] http://7-zip.org/ On 3/24/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo Simons wrote: Just make sure that there is no dependency within any of our codebase explicitly on this masm32 project and that under no conditions any sort of binaries or sources from these guys enters our code repository, and then I too guess using it for experimenting is okay. Yep But long term I'd rather see the need to pay for some software to be able to develop on windows (after all you need to pay for windows too) than to depend on some weird [EMAIL PROTECTED] tool. Hrm. I'm going to write to the guy and see what's up... geir -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: how to build Harmony on Windows (with minimum of commercial soft)
Patches are welcome :) Please feel free to send instructions to this list on how to build the pieces using which ever tools you wish to. If there are any patches, please open up new JIRA report and upload the svn diff against latest SVN. thanks, dims On 3/24/06, Fernando Cassia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I repeat my -perhaps naive- question: any reason for not making the win32 build of Harmany based on the OpenWatcom open source compiler?? www.openwatcom.org Fernando On 3/24/06, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Volunteers for mailing list moderation (was: [continuum] BUILD ERROR: Classlib/linux.ia32)
nope! sunstarsys.com is not me... -- dims On 3/20/06, Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone can be a moderator. Currently it is moderator at sunstarsys.com (I suspect dims) geirm at apache.org (geir) for both the commits and dev lists. These guys both do an amazing amount of mailing list moderation (which is a boring job) and if there's anyone willing to be added to this list I'm sure they wouldn't mind, just raise your hand :-) On Mon, Mar 20, 2006 at 06:36:01AM +, Tim Ellison wrote: Stepan Mishura wrote: May be it makes sense to send notifications to commits mailing list like for JIRA notifications? Sure, makes sense. We'd have to ask Geir to allow the posts through again ;-) -- Leo -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Tooting our Horn #1 : Tim Ellison Singing Harmony at EclipseCon
Nice! On 3/19/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim is giving at talk this week at EclipseCon : http://www.eclipsecon.org/2006/Sub.do?id=531 -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [VOTE] Accept HARMONY-57 : Contribution of unit test code for a number of components
+1 On 3/1/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: All paperwork has been received. I'll be getting that into SVN today, but lets get the voting kicked off... Please vote on acceptance of the donation of ontribution of unit test code for a number of components : [ ] +1 Accept [ ] -1 Don't accept (provide reason) Vote will run 3 days or until all committers have voted. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [VOTE] Accept HARMONY-127 : Eclipse plug-in for Harmony JRE support
+1 On 3/1/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All paperwork has been received. I'll be getting that into SVN today, but lest get the voting kicked off... Please vote on acceptance of the donation of the eclipse plug-in for Harmony JRE Support : [ ] +1 Accept [ ] -1 Don't accept (provide reason) -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [VOTE] Accept HARMONY-88 : Contribution of code and unit tests for jndi, logging, prefs and sql plus unit tests only for beans, crypto, math, regex and security
+1 On 3/1/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All paperwork has been received. I'll be getting that into SVN today, but lest get the voting kicked off... Please vote on acceptance of the donation of Contribution of code and unit tests for jndi, logging, prefs and sql plus unit tests only for beans, crypto, math, regex and security : [ ] +1 Accept [ ] -1 Don't accept (provide reason) Vote will run 3 days or until all committers have voted. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Using Cairo for Harmony graphic stuff?
Pluggable look and feel (http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/javax/swing/plaf/package-summary.html) -- dims On 2/14/06, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anton Avtamonov wrote: Yeah, thank you Tim. I also thought about SwingWT when saw Stefano's letter. Unfortunately such approach have serious problem with supporting PLAF concept, as I know :-(, but really very fast (thanks to swt :-)) what's PLAF? -- Anton Avtamonov, Intel Middleware Products Division On 2/13/06, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://swingwt.sourceforge.net/ (I merely mention it, not recommending it) Regards, Tim Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Anton Avtamonov wrote: On 2/13/06, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] The other thing to consider is to follow apple's advice and implement Swing using native widgets. I don't know what this entails in terms of complexity but I always found stupid that swing is barely scratching the surface of what my GPU accelerator could do for me. [snip] -- Stefano. Hi Stefano, Am I right you propose to implement Swing on native widgets? I mean using real native push buttons, etc. and get rid of 'standard' Swing approach to have lightweight platform-independent stuff? Sorry if I caught you wrong... I don't even know what I'm saying myself :-) All I know is that I want something fast that feels as solid as SWT on windows or swing/java2d on macosx. Unfortunately, I don't think I know enough how to figure out how to get there though, but I suspect you guys do ;-) -- Tim Ellison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Java technology centre, UK. -- Stefano. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Using Cairo for Harmony graphic stuff?
hehe :) good one for those uninitiated...that's with an 'i' like so (http://images.google.com/images?hl=enq=pilaf) -- dims On 2/14/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't it a rice dish? Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Anton Avtamonov wrote: Yeah, thank you Tim. I also thought about SwingWT when saw Stefano's letter. Unfortunately such approach have serious problem with supporting PLAF concept, as I know :-(, but really very fast (thanks to swt :-)) what's PLAF? -- Anton Avtamonov, Intel Middleware Products Division On 2/13/06, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://swingwt.sourceforge.net/ (I merely mention it, not recommending it) Regards, Tim Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Anton Avtamonov wrote: On 2/13/06, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] The other thing to consider is to follow apple's advice and implement Swing using native widgets. I don't know what this entails in terms of complexity but I always found stupid that swing is barely scratching the surface of what my GPU accelerator could do for me. [snip] -- Stefano. Hi Stefano, Am I right you propose to implement Swing on native widgets? I mean using real native push buttons, etc. and get rid of 'standard' Swing approach to have lightweight platform-independent stuff? Sorry if I caught you wrong... I don't even know what I'm saying myself :-) All I know is that I want something fast that feels as solid as SWT on windows or swing/java2d on macosx. Unfortunately, I don't think I know enough how to figure out how to get there though, but I suspect you guys do ;-) -- Tim Ellison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Java technology centre, UK. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: verifying signed jars
Folks, FYI, we are going take some code from BC in juice project. Check [1] for more info. thanks, dims [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/xml-juice-dev/200601.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/10/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heh. Everything we will do is legal :) The point is - would taking some source from BC be the smart thing to do - would it be complete, and what kind of maintenance burden would this be going forward? Would some kind of re-packaged artifact from the BC project itself be better? Do we need source? Could we have a step where we re-package BC code in a form more suited for our purposes? geir Mikhail Loenko wrote: We can if it is legal Thanks, Mikhail On 2/10/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I'll ask the obvious - can we borrow some of this from BC? Stepan Mishura wrote: We should have at least to verify BC provider: 1) Message digest algorithm: SHA-1 2) Signature algorithm: SHA1withDSA Other jars may require additional algorithms, for example, SHA1withRSA. We can verify BC provider first and use it for further jar verifications. Thanks, Stepan Mishura Intel Middleware Products Division On 2/10/06, George Harley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tim, In order to verify the signature of those signed provider jars I believe that you would also need trusted implementations of : * SHA-1 and MD5 digest algorithms * DSA and RSA signature algorithms Best regards, George IBM UK Tim Ellison wrote: Stepan Mishura wrote: snip Returning back to the 'missing post'. I agreed with suggestion but currently we don't have Harmony provider so we should define how we locate 'trusted provides' to be secure. We just need a trusted SHA1PRNG, right? then we can open signed providers' jars and get any others. Regards, Tim -- -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Tips for Harmony Development on Eclipse
Nice movie!!! learned a lot :) -- dims On 2/6/06, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it even has a movie -- see the bottom of the page (Tim ducks awaiting flame for creating huge flash download). Regards, Tim Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: Nice! Even has a picture! Tim Ellison wrote: Nathan, I've described how you can use set up Eclipse to develop individual Harmony classlib modules. This is how I work [1] so I don't have to download and recompile the entire class lib code for local changes. The Run As set up requires a Harmony JRE plug-in for Eclipse, which at present is not part of the Harmony project, but there is a workaround that Steven Gong described on this list [2]. Regards, Tim [1] http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/classlibrary/dev_eclipse.html [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200601.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Nathan Beyer wrote: Does anyone have any tips on setting up Eclipse projects and launchers to do some hacking on the Harmony Classlib? If there are some sites I should just be reading, please point the way. I skimmed the Wiki and did some searches, but couldn't find anything. I have most of the projects setup and compiling in Eclipse using the SVN code and the snapshot builds, but I'm unable to get the Run As and Debug As pieces going, so I can execute the tests and build some of my own. My problem seems to be around getting the JRE and the security policies setup appropriately. Thanks. -Nathan -- Tim Ellison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Java technology centre, UK. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [vote] Acceptance of HARMONY-39 : Contribution of beans, regex and math class library code
+1 from me. On 2/2/06, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: +1 from me... Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: I have received the ACQs and the BCC for Harmony-39, so I can assert that the critical provenance paperwork is in order (although not in SVN yet). Please vote to accept or reject this codebase into the Apache Harmony class library : [ ] + 1 Accept [ ] -1 Reject (provide reason below Lets let this run 3 days unless a) someone states they need more time or b) we get all committer votes before then. Sure, +1 -- Stefano. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [classlib] we can build our own site with classlib and J9
yeah right!!! :) Good job guys! -- dims On 1/23/06, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: This is cool. We can generate our own website using the IBM J9 VM and our classlib. I had to add SQLException (just a stub) because J9 thought this was important to have around (!). Give it a try. You need to build the classlib yourself until we can get an update to the snapshot site. Get J9 as stated in the classlib build instructions and then you can just : $ harmony/standard/site ant and it Just Works. hmmm, I wonder how far in gump we would go :-) -- Stefano. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Contribution of beans, math and regex libraries
Nice!!! Thanks a ton. -- dims On 1/23/06, Andrey Chernyshev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm happy to announce one more contribution to Harmony on behalf of Intel. The archive with the contribution is uploaded to the following location: http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-39 The contribution includes the following class library packages: 1) java.beans 2) java.math 3) java.util.regex Note that this contribution includes stubs for certain classes from the java.awt and java.applet packages as well to enable compilation of java.beans. The stub classes do not yet include the complete method signatures or their fully-functional implementations. Please be prepared to observe some unit test failures in the beans package because of that. The code is a result of efforts of Intel Middleware Product Division team. One should be able to compile and run this code with the Harmony Execution Environment available at http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/harmony, Harmony Class Libraries and Eclipse compiler. The code included with the contribution is pure Java, we tested it with the Harmony Execution Environment on Windows and Linux. The implementation is done according to the Java 5 API specification, though the Java 5 specific language features such as generics were not utilized. One should be able to run this code with a 1.4+ compatible JRE/VM. The build provided with the contribution doesn't include the documentation target yet until we work out the approach to handling the references to J2SE spec (we haven't yet removed the com.intel.drl.spec_ref tags from the code). We hope that the proposed regex package would allow developing the fully- functional build makefiles for Ant. The detailed documentation regarding the regex framework can be found under the 'doc' directory. The archive contains the README file that explains the things doable with this code. But, should any additional clarifications be required, I'll be happy to provide them. You are welcome to try it out! Thank you, Andrey Chernyshev Intel Middleware Products Division -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
IBM Development Package for Apache Harmony
Folks, I was trying to download the JVM from [1] as per instructions on our site [2]why is it asking me for all kinds of personal information? Is there a way to avoid this? thanks, dims [1] : http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/harmony/index.html [2] : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/downloads.html -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: IBM Development Package for Apache Harmony
Touché :) On 1/19/06, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, I was trying to download the JVM from [1] as per instructions on our site [2]why is it asking me for all kinds of personal information? The JVM is being made available under a license that (AIUI) means it cannot be redistributed from the Apache site. Developerworks has this policy of requesting info before a download, though most of it is optional and you can indicate that it is not to be used for any other purpose IIRC. Is there a way to avoid this? Contribute to JCHEVM ;-) Regards, Tim thanks, dims [1] : http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/harmony/index.html [2] : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/downloads.html -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ -- Tim Ellison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Java technology centre, UK. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [VOTE] Accept JIRA contribution HARMONY-16 (Intel's contrib of security code for classlib)
+1 from me. On 12/20/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Intel has offered an addition to the classlib effort in the form of security code to the project under the Apache License to Apache Harmony. It can be found here : http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-16 The paperwork (Bulk Contribution Checklist and supporting documentation) has been received and all documentation is in place. Therefore : [ ] +1 Accept the code into the project sandbox [ ] -1 Don't accept the code. Reason : This vote will close 72 hours from now. (+1 from me, of course...) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [Licensing/Community] Fresh start
Mark,
Personally, i'd like to see progress on the VM Interface ASAP, that
would go a long way to removing the mistrust. That would enable
harmony VM to use unmodified classpath stuff as-is for development
purposes and can act as a firewall till the licenses get sorted out.
See snippet from Leo's email:
Mark told me someone tried something like that a year or two ago
already. I forgot whom or what it was called, but I'd suggest trying
to learn about it and if it failed, why.
If i see some componentization such that i can drop in say
xalan/xerces and not use classpath's built-in stuff (this would end
users can mix and match stuff to make their distribution) that would
be even better. But VM Interface is priority #1.
Thanks,
dims
On 12/5/05, Mark Wielaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Davanum,
On Sun, 2005-12-04 at 13:50 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
Just remember, it has to go both ways :) Apache code in classpath and
classpath code in Harmony. We can't just push things so that it is a
one way street. So far what i have not heard is how/what can be done
to enable Classpath to use the tons of jakarta code and other Apache
code.
How about a plan of attack? Anthony, Dalibor and Mark can try hard to
lobby FSF's GPL v3 effort to be as compatible as possible with ASL
2.0? In the mean while, we can take up Stefano's offer of working on a
VM interface. If we get thru in one piece till GPL v3 gets out, then
we can investigate if Classpath can switch to use Xerces/Xalan etc
from Apache. In the parallel, let's see how LGPL bridge policy works
in the real world usage (once Apache-Legal formulates it and announces
it). At that point we can eval options on both sides and see how best
to go forward.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I have been reading a lot, but not
really found I way to make sense of where/why we aren't working more
together as a team :{ I changed the subject a little because I believe
this is not just some legal/licensing thing. It feels much more like a
community thing. Somehow we seem to mistrust each other. And I don't
really know how that happened. Ever since I became maintainer of GNU
Classpath I have worked hard to enlarge the community and work together
by cooperating with as many existing communities as possible. That was
also my intention when I joined the Harmony initiative. But instead of
having created a larger community we seem to have created communities
that are unsure of the goals of the other. While at the same time we do
seem to have the same goal, but we are not acting like we are.
I think we should split up the legal/community issues into the
following subprojects (I already tried to discuss this in private with
some people to get a better understanding, but maybe it is better to
throw this out into the group). Each of these points is not just a
licensing issue, but also a community issue since I feel that we can
only solve it if we understand why the different communities feel these
things are important. I have tried to explain it from my side a bit
below. Input on other viewpoints are very welcome.
- Understanding the acceptable dependencies of code distributed under
various licenses for the various groups. For GNU projects and most other
Free Software projects I know it is mostly anything goes as long as it
is upwards compatible with the GPL (with a preference on the FSF to have
a clear legal trail and possible copyright assignment). [Unfortunately
this doesn't include the ASL which is one of the main sticking points.
And why various people have asked the key contributors to make sure
their contributions are (also) available under GPL-compatible terms.
Geir has been talking to IBM about this.] The precise rules for the
ASF seem still under heavy discussion. Maybe this will be discussed more
at the ApacheCon next week.
- Starting from the understanding of the point above it would be good to
get a clear view of how the LGPL fits into that. It looks like many
Apache projects would like to build upon existing LGPL code bases, but
are not sure what the requirements are. I know we talked a lot about
this before, but I am not clear where we stand, or which uncertainties
still seem to exist. This is probably not possible to do before the
previous item is clearly understood. But if it is resolved and
acceptable to the apache community then we can certainly look into
making sure GNU Classpath code is also available under the LGPL, but see
next point.
- The FSF has been using exceptions for runtime libraries for
GCC, like the one for GNU Classpath, to the GPL. The intent was to have
a more easy to understand license for these kind of runtime libraries
which is similar in spirit to the LGPL, but with a couple of freedoms
removed (especially the relinking/shared library requirement for the end
user). But it seems this exception is even less well understood then the
LGPL even though people seem to have
Re: ASF has been shipping GPL exception stuff for years and still is ;)
Anthony, for example, there is work done already on XSLTC (http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/xsltc_usage.html) in Xalan. I'd like to be able to make *my* JRE distribution use this by default. To save space, i *don't* want to use the gnu xml stuff. why should i have to distribute that? see my point? thanks, dims On 12/5/05, Anthony Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 00:13 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote: But even then, there is no guarantee that people will want to do it because they can't make a closed fork if they want to for whatever reason. (Which ASL allows and if people wanted to do that, they would already be participating in one of the existing VM's in the classpath galaxy). This is true. My feeling about this, as it relates to the core class libraries, is that this is no place for proprietary innovation. Let people innovate around JIT, GC or other technology, but we're all better off collaborating on a first class J2SE-certifiable core class library collection. The proprietary Java vendors seem to agree on this point since, as far as I can tell, they all use the same class libraries as well. AG -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: ASF has been shipping GPL exception stuff for years and still is ;)
I agree with Geir. On 12/4/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 4, 2005, at 7:31 AM, Dalibor Topic wrote: On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 06:33:13PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 3, 2005, at 5:23 PM, David N. Welton wrote: Perhaps the difference is that with the bits and pieces of gcc that you get, you don't even realize that you have them, which is different from noting that you have several .jar files floating around in your download that aren't under the same terms as the rest of the code. I think a different way to say it, one that is clearer for my thinking, is that there is no dependence in the code, or on having to use GCC - a user can take the source and recompile with some other compiler to get working software. Sure, but the ASF has chosen to ship software using GPL+linking exception licensed code, and has beeing doing so for years, as I have shown, without any negative results. The ASF has a choice not to ship the binaries, or to ship them built with a different compiler, or to write their own compiler, but it chose not to, because obviously GPL+linking exception is good enough for what the ASF (and any $PROPRIETARY_SOFTWARE_VENDOR using gcc) does, or it would not be doing it. So, could the board please ratify the existing, and well-working practice of the ASF shipping code using GPL+linking exception licensed code as obviosly, trivially OK? That should not be too hard to get done quickly. Pragmatism over ideology, and all that. That's why we are here, right? Let me start by noting (hopefully unnecessarily at this point) that I'm very interested in solving the licensing issues. That said, I think that to be fair, we need to distinguish between using in the sense of what GCC is doing - a tool outside the scope of effort of the project enabling some behavior in a standard and non- intrusive way (just like we don't care about the license of the OS we run on), and using in the sense of developers of a project making a conscious decision to design and implement software with a dependency. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: ASF has been shipping GPL exception stuff for years and still is ;)
Yes, sublicensing. I believe the terms are not clear on how third parties can sublicense a composite of ASF-licensed works and GPL licensed works. IANAL and i don't understand it fully. But i was told that this is a problem and that problem is mitigated by the fact that Classpath is under GPL+Exception and a firewall can be set up by standard interfaces. That's why the VM Interface stuff is important. But even then, there is no guarantee that people will want to do it because they can't make a closed fork if they want to for whatever reason. (Which ASL allows and if people wanted to do that, they would already be participating in one of the existing VM's in the classpath galaxy). Yes, i do want to enable people to download and use Harmony+Classpath together but in my mind that cannot be the only choice. thanks, dims On 12/4/05, Dalibor Topic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 02:13:30PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 4, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Anthony Green wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-04 at 11:14 -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: That said, I think that to be fair, we need to distinguish between using in the sense of what GCC is doing - a tool outside the scope of effort of the project enabling some behavior in a standard and non- intrusive way (just like we don't care about the license of the OS we run on), and using in the sense of developers of a project making a conscious decision to design and implement software with a dependency. This is wrong thinking. You aren't simply using the libgcc routines, as you would OS resources. You are linking your application to the libgcc library and redistributing the resulting combined binary. This is precisely what the license talks about and enables. Ok - while it's not exactly the same, the fundamental point I was trying to make is sound, I think, in that in writing my program, I am not at all thinking hey, I'll use stuff from libgcc. I'm just writing a C program. After that, compiling and creating the executable is a second independent step - the receiver of the software has no burden to switch compilers wrt libgcc. He is talking about the binary, you're talking about the source. Reread what he said with that in mind, and it should become obvious that you are both right, since you are talking past him ;) But with respect to ASF's (legally fine, just aparently ruffling a few feathers among less C-aware members) usage of GPL+linked exception licensed code from gcc, Anthony is correct, there is no doubt about it. Check out the gcc changelogs, and you will find that he knows very well what he's talking about with respect to gcc. The license needs to allow this, or using it would be a non-starter. Whether or not you make a distinction between this kind of GPL +exception usage and libstdc++ or GNU Classpath usage hardly matters, since the licenses themselves don't make a distinction. That would only be true if there is a standard interface / component model for the classlibrary so that there can be competing implementations and users have the ability to switch from one implementation to another without significant burden in the event they wish to make changes, additions or enhancements, and have the freedom to choose what they do with their work. That's why I think that the our componentization efforts are so important. You seem to have narrowly missed what Anthony said, and went on a defensive tangent instead ;) You don't have to defend the usage of GPL+linking exception licensed code by the Apache Software Foundation, all of us non-Luddites here agree that the GPL+linking exception works as it should and the binaries shipped by the ASF are fine. This stuff is easy, and pretty obvious to anyone with a dissasembler, and/or insight about C compilers, so let's have the same rules that allow httpd to ship their binaries using/incorporating GPL+linking exception licensed code, ASF's flagship product, after all, be officially ratified, as they'd allow us to do the same. Is there something left that would speak against using GNU Classpath in Harmony, after we have established as a fact that the ASF is indeed happily distributing code using code under the same sort of licenses and has been doing so for years? If not, then let's do it. cheers, dalibor topic geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: The Unofficial Harmony, Licensing, the Universe and everything FAQ
Anthony, Am sure you are aware that Apache does not get contributors to assign copyrights to Apache when they contribute code. -- dims On 11/18/05, Anthony Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 14:50 -0800, Leo Simons wrote: As a special exception, for Classpath we have decided to make all the problems described at http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html go away. And then in proper lawyer terms. Heh. Very interesting, very pragmatic! Mark, do you think there's any chance of making this happen? IANAL, but my understanding is that there are two ways to make all the problems go away: a) Modify the Apache license to remove the additional restrictions, or b) Modify the GPL to remove the additional restrictions requirement. Only the copyright holders of the Apache licensed code can do (a), which doesn't seem to be what you're proposing. As for (b), this would effectively make GNU Classpath incompatible with GPL licensed code, because we still have Apache's additional restrictions to worry about. This is a non-starter for a GNU project. I like the creative thinking though. AG -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: The Unofficial Harmony, Licensing, the Universe and everything FAQ
that's the prerogative of the contributor... -- dims On 11/18/05, Anthony Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 00:36 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Anthony, Am sure you are aware that Apache does not get contributors to assign copyrights to Apache when they contribute code. So why not simply have the Harmony contribution paperwork ask contributors to dual license their code under both the Apache and GNU Classpath licenses? AG -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: The Unofficial Harmony, Licensing, the Universe and everything FAQ
Anthony, People who are willing to go the GPL route for their code have lots of avenues as u know... -- dims On 11/18/05, Anthony Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 00:48 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote: that's the prerogative of the contributor... No, I'm asking that the Harmony contribution process include a step asking the contributor to dual license their code (along with the reasoning). And then the contributor can make an informed decision at an appropriate time. AG -- dims On 11/18/05, Anthony Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 00:36 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Anthony, Am sure you are aware that Apache does not get contributors to assign copyrights to Apache when they contribute code. So why not simply have the Harmony contribution paperwork ask contributors to dual license their code under both the Apache and GNU Classpath licenses? AG -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Code contribution to harmony
AWESOME!! thanks guys. -- dims On 11/8/05, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Ellison wrote: I'll post the URL for the VM download (as soon as I know it) as a follow-up to this mail -- it could take a couple of days to organize. Hey, the DeveloperWorks download is available now: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/harmony Any questions just shout. Regards, Tim -- Tim Ellison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Java technology centre, UK. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Apache Harmony welcomes Archie Cobbs as our newest committer
welcome aboard! On 11/7/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Apache Harmony PPMC is proud to announce Archie Cobbs as our newest Apache Harmony committer, and look forward to seeing him continue his work on jcheVM (now in sandbox/contribs/jchevm), as well as other areas of his interest. Archie has shown a long-standing and broad-ranging interest in the project, and this will allow him to continue working on his initial contribution. We believe he is an excellent addition to the project and will help others in the community with his experience and knowledge. Congratulations, The Apache Harmony PPMC -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: MSVC support, was: Compilers and configuration tools
+1 to check them in :) -- dims On 10/25/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, From his posting below: it will ensure that the project sticks to writing portable code as far as possible. - As for the logistical problems, I believe they will be kept to a minimum if we develop keeping multiple compilers in mind from the beginning itself. Tanuj has several good points about multiple compiler support. As to the numerous viewpoints being expressed, I think we are probably in a bit of a wait and see mode as everyone weighs in and as we decide what direction to move in. However, my main purpose in this posting is that several people have expressed interest in using a standard build tool such as GNU make or Ant or the like. I have written up some small Makefiles for BootJVM that will do full and incremental compilations and produce the same exact results as the current /bin/sh build scripts. They were fairly simple. One advantage is that they could be adapted to handle multiple compilation environments when and if the need arose without the complexity of modifying the current scripts (the long-term price of short-term expediency). This would ease the project more into maintainable position before we all got used to using the current scripts. (Sorry I didn't think to put the effort into this in the first place, as I deemed getting the code base done first the more important item.) Would The List be interested in me replacing these simple shell scripts (namely, '*/*.sh', being 'build.sh' and 'clean.sh' and 'common.sh') with these simple but _much_ smarter Makefiles (which run GNU make)? I'd be glad to polish up these files and stick them out on SVN if folks are interested. I am pretty sure that Rodrigo Kumpera and Robin Garner would be happy if I did so... ;-) Dan Lydick [Original Message] From: Tanuj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/25/05 9:29:49 AM Subject: Re: MSVC support, was: Compilers and configuration tools The Boost project [http://www.boost.org] could probably serve as a knowledge source on how difficult it is to support multiple compilers for the same codebase. For example, this document http://www.boost.org/libs/config/config.htm describes the configuration options and build process they use to support the various compilers. Some points I'd like to make: - I believe multiple compiler support is desirous as we look to support multiple platforms. First of all, it will ensure that the project sticks to writing portable code as far as possible. Secondly, it will give users an option to optimize the compiled code in the best way possible for their platform. For example, while GCC is an excellent multiplatform compiler, at least on Windows it is certainly not the best optimizing compiler available. and people would appreciate it if the project provided them the option of using Intel or MSVC to produce a better optimized JVM. - As for the logistical problems, I believe they will be kept to a minimum if we develop keeping multiple compilers in mind from the beginning itself. Adding compiler support after the project has a sizeable existing codebase would be quite painful. As Boost shows, multi compiler support is doable with some effort. Anyone out there with real life experiences they care to contribute? - tanuj ...snip... -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Small problems building under cygwin
I believe Express versions are available for download - http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/visualc/default.aspx -- dims On 10/21/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be sure that we don't have a barrier to entry by having to go get commercial software to build the project - by this I mean a MSVC requirement. I'm happy if windows users can use MSVC if they want - i.e. if someone supports it - but it can't be the only option. geir On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:40 PM, Rodrigo Kumpera wrote: Dan, Suporting multiple SO and hardware configurations is going to be PITA, adding compiler to this mix might be overkill. It's true that many specialized compiler generate better code than gcc for their platform, f.e. ICC, but does that justify the extra effort? I mean, there are a LOT of stuff we'll need to support many compilers: libraries have diferent performance problems and bugs; compilers have diferent extensions, standards compliance, assembly sintax and bugs. Assembly, for one, is going to be a big issue if we start using native threads and need to use memory barriers, we will have the exact same x86 code in att and intel styles. It's doable, but will require a LOT of effort to be done. Anyway, I don't see much harm in requiring non-linux developers to have instaled the gcc toolchain and a bourne shell interpreter, that's a lot less than many complex projects require for the build enviroment. But even then, I'm biased on this subject, as I cannot survive a windows machine without cygwin and don't care much for anything else but linux. Have said that, I think having build.sh converted to a .bat script is not necessary, only maybe as a subset, that supports only win32/64 on MSVC. On 10/20/05, Apache Harmony Bootstrap JVM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rodrigo, Thanks for your help with these items. I think that it should be a simple matter to have 'config.sh' set a 'win32' path. In fact, there should probably be a map function for that include path so that each configuration can set that subdirectory name to whatever Sun declares it to be for that platform instead of depending on the OS platform name. The '__int64' issue is an interesting one! That's why we're trying out all these porting things. To me, the solution depends partly on a matter of build policy, namely, which compilers do we use? I think that there is a case to be made for supporting MSVC in addition to GCC since it has a large installed base, and a Windows version of the build scripts should be able to support both. I suggest that we could have the compiler as one of the configuration options in 'config.sh' for Windows and CygWin, also for the Windows .BAT file equivalent. What do you think? Dan Lydick -Original Message- From: Rodrigo Kumpera [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Oct 19, 2005 5:42 PM To: harmony-dev harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Small problems building under cygwin I've found a small issue while building under cygwin. I'm using j2sdk 1.4 and gcc 3.4.4 (cygwin). The problems are when building the jni stuff. First it included on gcc find patch j2sdk\include\cygwin, but it should be j2sdk\include\win32. Second is when building the included file jni_md.h breaks everything as it defines jlong as __int64 and not long long. Fixing both is pretty easy, either edit config/config_opts_always.gcc or rename the directory from win32 to cygwin. The second you can either edit jni_md.h and change __int64 to long long or include a define directive, or something like this, in config/config_opts_always.gcc. I'm not sure what would be the best way to fix this on build.sh, as the first issue is related to build enviroment and the second about incompatible compilers (__int64 works on MSVC and ICC but not gcc) []s Rodrigo Dan Lydick -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: [vote] Accept JIRA contribution HARMONY-5 : David Tanzer's proof-of-concept component model
Again we agree. +1 from me. Instead of being a roadblock, contribute patches -- dims On 9/30/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh gosh, it is way too early to reject things for such reasons. Instead of being a roadblock, contribute patches. That is the affirmative thing to do rather than starting out with the hammer. It is really hard to start a project in the fashion of harmony (w/o initial codebase) because so many initial decisions in any project must favor the least thing that could possibly work -- beyond this you take into concern other things. For instance, I'm quite interested in a VM that sucks less than IBM's for the AIX P5 platform, but I'm not going to -1 this won't work on AIX. I guarantee no code submitted will be perfect and some won't even be immediately portable especially in the early stages. PEEEAAASE take an affirmative view rather than a code by committee negative view. -Andy David Tanzer wrote: On Fri, 2005-09-30 at 02:58 -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Sep 30, 2005, at 2:51 AM, Mladen Turk wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: David Tanzer has offered his proof-of-concept component model to the project. It can be found here : http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-5 [ ] +1 Accept the code into the project [X] -1 Don't accept the code. Reason : The code itself is posix only. It's a proof of concept for the sandbox! This isn't a commitment to the idea or the implementation, but just getting it in so people can play Right, that's what my intention was, nothing more. If we continue this way, porting to the other platforms will become impossible. Even the simple posix itself is incompatible between various flavors. For example on AIX there is 'archive.a(dso.so)' and dlopen needs 'RTLD_NOW | RTLD_GLOBAL | RTDL_MEMBER' flags. Some platforms like HPUX use the shl_load, not to mention the Windows or Netware. The actual code itself exists, and is very much mature within Apache2, and module dependencies are implemented within apr-iconv project, so perhaps this would be a way to go. APR? I think that we'll leverage APR heavily. Whether or not the APR API is the one we use as the standard porting layer API remains to be seen. If not, I'm certain will used it for platform implementations of the porting layer... There are several places in the code where I've added comments about things that have to be changed if we really use this component model. Note that there are also serious concerns about performance in a runtime-configurable component model and Robin Garner suggested to aim for compile time configurability (See [1]). APR would definitely be a better choice than posix, but AFAICS the decision about what our portability layer will be has not been made yet. Also, what about coding style guide? That's a good question, and something I assume we'll converge around as we get moving. I totally agree with that. I discussed earlier with Weldon Washburn and Geir about using the Java Coding Conventions where possible (See [2] and follow-ups), but this still doesn't cover things like directory structure, some aspects of documentation policy, etc., and there was no decision yet. Regards, David. [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200509.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200508.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] geir Regards, Mladen. -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
Re: [vote] Accept JIRA contribution HARMONY-5 : David Tanzer's proof-of-concept component model
+1 On 9/29/05, Enrico Migliore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 David Tanzer has offered his proof-of-concept component model to the project. It can be found here : http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-5 [ ] +1 Accept the code into the project [ ] -1 Don't accept the code. Reason : -- Notes : 1) Yes, this is formal, but we want a clear audit trail into the project, and clear acceptance decisions 2) I normally would put a 3 day review period, but this code is small and I want to use this to test the process 3) Once we accept (I expect we will) ( and if David gets his Bulk Contrib Agreement and Software Grant in!) we'll put in sandbox and away we go... Thanks for the patience geir -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
Re: Code into SVN, not the WIKI (Re: [arch] VMCore / Component Model)
So let's do it then...Everyone interested should fill in their paperwork by end of the month. First week next month we can have a VOTE on the PPMC for each person based on their contributions so far. (Let each person state what they are bringing to the table as well if they haven't already). So by end of October we should have a roster of folks with commit privs who can then vote in the next set of committers (or as and when they want to). I really don't want to wait another 4 months and see that we are still in the same situation as we are in today. Thanks, dims On 9/20/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 20, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Geir, When folks have sent in their ACQ/ICLA, we should give them direct commit access (after maybe a VOTE on the ppmc list). I really don't like putting so many road blocks, what exactly are we waiting for? What roadblocks are you talking about? We certainly want a vote and not just make everyone who fills in paperwork a committer. I don't think we need a high bar to entry, but at least a patch, maybe? This is a good subject to discuss. *Any* bulk contribution - i.e. code created outside of the day to day flow of the project by committers should come into a JIRA so the contribution can be inspected and understood to be a clearly delineated contribution. We will be keeping a record of all such contributions. geir Assuming that all is well with the ACQ, this means that we can accept the code you have put in the WIKI into SVN for people to start playing with. You will have to add the code to a JIRA entry for the project, so you can definitively offer it under the Apache license. Thanks, dims -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
Re: [discussion] Committer Addition Process
Geir, Am looking for specific timelines and specific things an indiviual can do to make sure that they catch the eye of the PMC/PPMC for commit status. For a person looking from outside, there is no info on what they should do (other than what they are doing right now) to become a committer. +1 to make a policy doc in svn. But am really interested in getting the ball rolling on voting specific people, get them commit access AND more importantly getting out of their way and let them decide/work on harmony's future. thanks, dims On 9/20/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to shameless steal an idea from Andy Oliver. Amended with #4 : 1) Anyone with a contribution that would belong in SVN can be considered for commit status by the PMC (PPMC while in incubation). This contribution can be anything - new code, a patch to existing code, documentation, a change to the website, testing code or other resources, etc. (Hopefully this gets people interested in harvesting good docs from the WIKI, as that's worth commit status IMO) 2) If offered commit status by the PMC and accepted by the individual, we will get an ACQ from the individual along with an ICLA if not already on file with the ASF secretary. I'd ask that individuals wait to do an ACQ until offered, as the ACQ will be evolving over time as we learn, and I'd like to ask that a new committer have the current version on file as of the date of them being added as a commmitter. 3) The individual would be given free reign in the area to which they contributed, and trusted to engage with the relevant part of the community for other areas of our codebase/resourcebase. 4) A committer will lose commit status after 4 months of inactivity. In order to regain commit status, that person must begin participating by offering a patch, new code, etc :) On Sep 20, 2005, at 10:07 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Adding committers to a project is a problem every project faces, and there are quite a large number of ways to do it. I've been too worried about legal issues (and they pop up often) lately, and this is a good subject for us to resolve now. We must * have a visible process to ensure fairness * a low barrier to entry to get people helping * a rigid transparent process to ensure safety of the codebase in terms of IP provenance * a cultural standard through which people work on things that they have demonstrated competence to the rest of the community. For the last point, except for keeping people away from parts of the subversion repository to which they have had prior exposure they can't get resolved, we want to have one kind of committer. However, it's clear that we all have different levels of talent in different areas of technology. So a nice way to work - I think - is that committers are added for work in a specific area on a trust basis, and if they want to work in other areas, they engage with others already working there and get informal approval to commit at will. IOW, don't just go rummaging through code in which you have no experience, but work with those that are. This is something that I've heard work well in projects like Subversion, and we're trying it in Geronimo to recognize that the barrier to entry varies by person and technology they are interested in working on. So I'd like to keep it really simple : 1) Anyone with a contribution that would belong in SVN can be considered for commit status by the PMC (PPMC while in incubation). This contribution can be anything - new code, a patch to existing code, documentation, a change to the website, testing code or other resources, etc. (Hopefully this gets people interested in harvesting good docs from the WIKI, as that's worth commit status IMO) 2) If offered commit status by the PMC and accepted by the individual, we will get an ACQ from the individual along with an ICLA if not already on file with the ASF secretary. I'd ask that individuals wait to do an ACQ until offered, as the ACQ will be evolving over time as we learn, and I'd like to ask that a new committer have the current version on file as of the date of them being added as a commmitter. 3) The individual would be given free reign in the area to which they contributed, and trusted to engage with the relevant part of the community for other areas of our codebase/resourcebase. Comments? If people agree to this, I'd like to add this to our website as part of the project policy. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
Re: 4 Months and...
+1 from me On 9/19/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Four months and no code. Open up the repository and let the willing start committing. The discussion has gotten so verbose that there are already people publishing edited digests. Code will reduce the discussion :-) -Andy -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
Re: [arch] Modular JVM component diagram
Weldon,
from which wiki page is this field_access.txt url linked from? could
we not add the code that wiki page itself? (if you enclose with {{{
and }}} with the code in between it looks nice)
thanks,
dims
On 8/25/05, Weldon Washburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 8/18/05, Ricardo Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,
I updated the Modular Structure JVM Components
section of the architecture document with a
description for each one of the boxes in the UML
diagram, and a brief explanation of notation.
Next step would be to start describing the interface
groups.
Everyone,
I have started filling in the interfaces mentioned in the jpeg above.
I am putting classloader interface(s) into harmony wiki at
http://wiki.apache.org/harmony-data/attachments/HarmonyArchitecture/attachments/field_access.txt.
Comments?
Thank you,
Ricardo
http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/HarmonyArchitecture
--- Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ricardo,
Do you intend to put some words to your attachment?
snip
__
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Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
Re: a harmonious and inclusive community
Robert, yes, i believe Geir was referring to the VM Interface. that would be awesome! -- dims On 7/23/05, Robert Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 And there are often interface design discussions on the classpath mailinglist, please monitor that list (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/). Andrew Hughes really worked hard to document our current interfaces as now published with the latest GNU Classpath release at: http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/docs/vmintegration.html Please discuss what seems impractical in this design for adoption of GNU Classpath as core library set. Any chance of making them available under Mit/X license? ;) Does 'them' mean the VM interface? If yes, then I do not see a problem. IMHO we (=Classpath) should release the interface as MIT/X11 license or even place it in the public domain. Would that be a feasible option? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC4vrIG9cfwmwwEtoRAr8mAJ99pyIn5M01AmwOkjybw+yj2cY/cgCeNyoP oSlcWZKtesKgTl4rB0mEg5s= =Rs9w -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Davanum Srinivas -http://blogs.cocoondev.org/dims/
Re: Minutes of First Harmony Meeting
+1 to Robin. proceed as though the license issues will eventually be worked out -- dims On 7/5/05, Robin Garner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know where you get the idea that downloading JikesRVM or any component thereof 'contaminates' you. The e-mail you refer to talks about redistributing a work derived from a CPL-ed work as part of an Apache distribution. While MMTk is a component of JikesRVM, it is maintained by a distinct subgroup of the JikesRVM community. If Harmony were to use MMTk, I'm sure we could make it available under an appropriate license. In any case, the development model of MMTk is to be portable, as reflected in the Rotor and JNode ports, and to maintain a common code base for all platforms it supports. There would then be no issue of distributing a derived work. Can't you just work on the same basis as people are with Classpath - just proceed as though the license issues will eventually be worked out ? Regards, Robin On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 22:17 -0700, Weldon Washburn wrote: Unfortunately, I am not allowed to download JikesRVM at this time. Since I can't download Jikes, I did the next best thing -- a Google search. As far as I can tell, MMTK is part of JikesRVM and does not exist as a stand-alone entity. Is this correct? Also, the following mail archive says that Apache has issues with CPL code: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200503.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Does MMTK exist under any other license? I'd like to look at the MMTK/VM interface(s) but don't know how to do this without becoming contaminated. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks Weldon On 7/1/05, Daniel Feinberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't find the license to MMTK. Can you post a pointer? If you download JikesRVM you can see in the MMTK directory that it is licenced under CPL or the Common Public Licence. This is quoted from the licence file supplied with MMTK: MMTk is free, open source software, distributed and freely redistributable under the Common Public License (CPL). The CPL has been certified by the Open Source Initiative as an open source license. The CPL meets the Debian Free Software Guidelines. -- Daniel Feinberg http://www.cs.unm.edu/~danielf -- Davanum Srinivas -http://blogs.cocoondev.org/dims/
Re: Harmony site now up http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/
Can we please keep the bugzilla one? thanks, dims On 6/18/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 17, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Mark Wielaard wrote: On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 10:18 -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Would you mind submitting the harmony logo, and the incubator logo in JIRA so we can use them? http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY (It's down at the moment, but will be working soon...) We have bugzilla for Harmony now (thanks dims): http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Harmony We don't need both. geir Cheers, Mark -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas -http://blogs.cocoondev.org/dims/
Re: [arch] questions about adding detail to the wiki harmonyArchitecture page
Weldon, +1 for you to be the gatekeeper. Sure, please clean it up as you see fit. We should not lose the details that's all. thanks, dims On 5/27/05, Weldon Washburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dims, I would like to start filling out the modules and interfaces part of harmonyArchitecture wiki page. I looked at the wiki revision history and noticed that you were the last person to modify the page. Do you know if there is a protocol for modifying this document. Do people just make changes or is there a gatekeeper who must be notified. If there is no gatekeeper, I volunteer for this job. There are two sections on modules and interfaces. They overlap. Ultimately we need one section. Should I add my detail to my section and leave the resolution of overlap to another time? Thanks Weldon -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [gnu.org #239354] AutoReply concerning licensing question: Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Great to know that you agree with the answer and thanks for answering back to the public mailing list. thanks, dims On 5/26/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] via RT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The FAQ already lists several exceptions; I see no particular need to explicitly call out that they in fact work. In addition, it turns out that there's a few possible ways they could work from a legal perspective, and singling out one in particular seems somewhat limiting. On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 13:51 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] via RT wrote: Is this accurate? If not, can you please frame both the question and the answer in a FAQ style (easy-to-understand) and may be even put it up on the Licensing FAQ page? Q: A copyright holder of a specific GPL-covered program, wishes to modify some clauses of GPL itself, is it possible? A: Yes, A copyright holder can add on an Exception clause that states the intentions of how they wish the programs to be used/modified/distributed etc. In practice this works similar to dual-licensing. Thanks, dims -- -Dave Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Support my work: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=novalisp=FSF -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Bootstrapping community (Re: [arch] The Third Way : C/C++ and Java and lets go forward)
we are talking cross-purposes...i can't keep up with all the traffic. Are u sure, you haven't missed a nugget of information here and there? Am not saying that you should not pick Jam. Pick jam, but there are others who are willing to help and willing to write code and have contributions to bring in. *PLEASE* bring them in sooner than later. You know how bloody long it takes us to do the paperwork and get the infrastructure work done. Let's have the discussions on the mailing list. Document them say using java interfaces in SVN. Put up information on the wiki to back up the discussions. Let folks write some non-trivial code that is needed eventually but does not hinder your kernel work/discussions. For example, someone was going to write a javac wrapper for jdt. How do know which pieces of information on the mailing list you considered for taking a decision. and someone may use a totally different set of points made on the mailing list for taking the opposite decision. We need to document those in the design docs and/or wiki. Call me today and we can chat a bit more. thanks, dims On 5/23/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 23, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Geir, Am not sure u understood where i am coming from. (I feel that u saying that we are not going to get commit privs for folks interested till the design discussions are over AND that design decisions are going to be made on the mailing list ONLY?) Huh? I don't understand that. What I want to do is start getting people working and committing, but *also* getting some of the sophisticated design work done. I think that we can drive one from another and vice-versa. By having a little kernel-thingy (I won't call it core because after talking to Steve, it's clearly a matter of semantics) that's for our prototyping and learning, we can start working with the modularization, which as I understand it, is a current topic in VM research. Yes, I'm hoping the design decisions are made on the list, btw. :) I have trouble keeping up with the mailing list and so do others...am not saying that we have to check-in code from all the seed VM's into our repo. I want to keep the momentum going by getting committers on board, letting them share thoughts, documents and code if any (SVN repo?), may be use JIRA to document requirements etc. Right now no one knows who is going to be working and on what and how to contribute etc. Yes - that's the entire point of what I'm trying to do :) As stefano says - good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do notLet's build the community without waiting for the discussion to end on the mailing lists and let the committers/community decide on how best to move forward. We don't (mentors) have to pick the winner? do we? There's no winner. LIke I said, this isn't about blessing one thing as the solution. We aren't going to just take something from outside and say done. What I wanted is code to experiment with and adapt to what *we* design. We can add things from elsewhere as the design require (like modularize parts of JikesRVM, which I understand needs to be done...). Look at Jam. My understanding is that it sorta works, and it's very simple. It sounds like it's easy to refactor to a small, kernel- thingy that will be a basis of support for moving forward w/ the modularity. And then we can throw it out :) or not. Whatever we discover. I think we're going to learn a lot here. geir (And while I'm a mentor, I'm also a participant :) Thanks, dims On 5/23/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 23, 2005, at 9:54 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Geir, Am convinced that we can write a JVM in pure java with minimal C/C ++. Why? If it has C/C++, it's not pure Java. Period. This isn't about whether or not that it can be done in Java, or a way to get it into C/C++. Lets get over that misconception right now. I'm sure that major parts can be done in Java - it's been demonstrated by JikesRVM, and lots of experienced VM people point in that direction, even with a C/C++ core. I have no problem with that. How about we poll the VM candidates on who wants to help seed the project, ask them to do the paperwork, then we can get folks on board as committers and let them play in sandboxes (see below). Folks who do the work will then get to decide the future direction. We don't have to make the technical decision now before the committers are on board. What do you think? I don't see what we gain. We want to create *our design*, not make frankenVM. The point of starting with a small seed C/C++ kernel is to get the bootstrap and intrinsics support that *any* VM will need, pure C, pure Java, or mixed. Our discussions will point to where we have to refactor. On top of that, we build what we
People - Take #2
Folks, Please free to add yourself to the People page - http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/People. There is a new field where you can indicate your willingness to become a committer :) [We are still in the process of deciding the details of how/who/when/what of the bootstrapping process...but this is a way for you to tell us you are interested]. thanks, dims -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [Harmony Wiki] Update of People by RobGonzalez
Rob, Please move it...any experience is better than none :) -- dims On 5/24/05, Rob Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good point, though i feel a bit outgunned by the other guys in that list :) dalibor, mark wielaard, tom tromey...big guns in free java. i just hacked on kaffe for a while, did some debugging, build most of a verifier, hacked on it as part of one of those proposals to add generics to java sort of thing. -Rob On 5/24/05, Matt Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Apache Wiki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + || Rob Gonzalez || rob.gonzalez AT gmail.com || Kaffe, LSID || Kaffe?--Rob, shouldn't you be under Folks with prior VM Experience then? -Matt __ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [Harmony Wiki] Trivial Update of People by IanDarwin -- STOP
DONE :) On 5/24/05, Dan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please harmony-dev: Stop Stop Stop sending me these notices! Stop Stop -- Dan Cohen in Calgary -- On Tuesday 24 May 2005 15:26, Apache Wiki wrote: Dear Wiki user, You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on Harmony Wiki for change notification. The following page has been changed by IanDarwin: http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/People ... -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [arch] The Third Way : C/C++ and Java and lets go forward
not pouring cement and bending re-bar here. I'd be happy to abandon anything we start with once we figure out what is better, or if some other donation that more fits our intended design comes along. I'm 100% against looking around at parts, and cobbling something together. I'm 100% for having parts to play with our ideas, but setting out an architecture and roadmap that we design, we decide on, and then we instantiate via fresh code, donation or other. So that said, are you still so against it? geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: FAQ (was RE: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/)
Is there a link from the main page? -- dims On 5/23/05, Nick Lothian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Does anyone have any benchmarks on such designs? As a hard-core real-time and device driver guy, I am rather skeptical that this is anything else but a conflict in requirements, runtime performance in execution speed versus interpretability and/or compilability of the runtime module. But then again, I've only been working with Java at all for less than four years :-) The discussion has been rehashed a lot of times. I'd like to see it put to rest (perhaps we need a technical FAQ?). See the end of this email for a brief answer anyway...* Should we do a FAQ on the Wiki or start a website (since now Harmony officially is in the incubator)? (Either way I'll volunteer to get this going) Great - start in the wiki, and we can bring out to website when it's filled out. Easier to start on wiki. geir Here's a start: http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/TechnicalFAQ Nick IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or confidential information. If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its contents to any other party. This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do not necessarily reflect those of education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted with it for viruses or any other defects. education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or consequence caused directly or indirectly by this email. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [arch] The Third Way : C/C++ and Java and lets go forward
Geir, Am convinced that we can write a JVM in pure java with minimal C/C++. How about we poll the VM candidates on who wants to help seed the project, ask them to do the paperwork, then we can get folks on board as committers and let them play in sandboxes (see below). Folks who do the work will then get to decide the future direction. We don't have to make the technical decision now before the committers are on board. What do you think? Steve, As a mentor, i agree with you whole heartedly. How do we go about this process of designing the core for harmony? Could we say strip down say JamVM/JCVM to create a bootstrapper (OS dependent stuff ONLY) for a stripped down JikesRVM in our sandbox to illustrate the validity of writing the almost the whole JVM in java? [Nothing like working code to get juices flowing]. My problem is that i haven't done this (writing a JVM) before, so am itching to do something that will help me understand better the problems/challenges involved and help me on deciding what to look for in the other existing VM's that we can leverage/use. Thanks, dims On 5/23/05, Steve Blackburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets get moving. Comments? Respectfully, I think this would be a mistake. I think it would be a major error to start coding a VM core until there was more clarity about what we are doing and what the core would require. but rather my understanding that we'll need a small C/C++ kernel to host the modules, no matter how they are written, and this is a way to get that going... This is not the case Geir. When a VM is built in Java, the only need for C/C++ is for direct interaction with the OS (one modest file of C code with interfaces to the most basic OS functionality), and for bootstrapping (another OS-specific file of C code plus about a dozen of lines of assembler). That's it. The kernel of the VM can be entirely written in Java. Whether or not we chose to do that is another matter, but your comment above is technically incorrect, and therefore should not be the basis on which we start coding. This misconception highlights why it is that I think we need a seeding process to gain some collective understanding before we start cutting code for a new VM core. This requires some patience but I think will make the difference between us producing a) something that is free, runs OK, and is portable, from b) something that leverages the outstanding collective pool of ideas at the table (ovm, gcj, kaffe, joeq, jamvm, jc, orp, mudgevm, jikesrvm, etc etc) to deliver what I think could be the best performing, most exciting VM, free or non-free. I am very excited about all of the technology that this project is bringing out. I think JamVM looks outstanding, but I think it would be a serious error to take it as the core for Harmony. It was not *designed* with our goals in mind. We need to understand where the value in JamVM (and all other candidates) is, and then maximize our leverage on that in the Harmony VM, whether it be through an entire VM (unlikely), components (I hope so), designs (I am sure), or mechanisms (certainly). I understand that it is important that we seize the enthusiasm of the list and start working, but respectfully, I think that cutting code for a VM kernel right now would be a bad mistake, one that might be gratifying in the short term but that is likely to lay the wrong foundation for what I think may become the most exciting VM project yet. --Steve -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: JIRA and SVN
David, please feel free to ping Rob. It would be great! thanks, dims On 5/21/05, David Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20 May 2005 17:54:11 -0600, Tom Tromey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is too vague -- we don't know much about the unexpected. Plus, in most cases, the core part of the VM is simply not very important. There just isn't much code there -- JamVM is 20KLOC, anybody could comfortably rewrite this. Hmmm, well I used to work with the author of JamVM (Rob Lougher) and he's one of the brightest guys I know. I think you'll find that the low LOC figure is testament to his ability to write lean code rather than an indication of how easy it is to knock off a JVM on a wet Sunday afternoon. BTW has anyone asked Rob about donating JamVM to Harmony? As the (currently) sole owner he should have no problem with switching licenses. Cheers, Dave -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
People
Folks, Just to get to know each other and where everyone is coming from...i've added a page on Wiki: http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/People Please take a few mins to add/update the table. If you don't want your name in there, please feel free to remove it. i just added some names from the proposal and from some of the threads to make the template. thanks, dims -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: People
FYI, there is a link on top of the page, you can create an user id to edit the page. thanks, dims On 5/20/05, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, Just to get to know each other and where everyone is coming from...i've added a page on Wiki: http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/People Please take a few mins to add/update the table. If you don't want your name in there, please feel free to remove it. i just added some names from the proposal and from some of the threads to make the template. thanks, dims -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
JIRA and SVN
JIRA: http://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/BrowseProject.jspa?id=10740 SVN: http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/harmony/ thanks, dims -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Hi Danese, Since the VOTE on the proposal has closed with a positive result. I'd love to hear with your INTEL hat on :) -- dims On 5/18/05, Danese Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much as I admire James, I have to say that the responses from enterprise developers of which he presumably speaks were carefully choreographed by the organizers of JavaONE (who are of course Sun employees). Its the old story...you can't ask a question without influencing the answer. When Sun asks they often hear what they want to hear. When Tim O'Reilly asked the same question a month later at OSCON he got the opposite answer (of course). I spent 6 years at Sun asking the question every chance I got and probably because of who I am I heard clear support for a *compatible* open J2SE...which is what Harmony is trying to be (and why I'm a supporter) :-)... In my experience, James is a fair-minded guy and I believe that a strong, ethical and hard-working Harmony community is bound to impress him over time. Danese (still speaking on my own and neither on behalf of my former nor my current employer) On May 17, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Ahmed Saad wrote: The clear need that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to Gosling, who says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise development community regarding the idea of open-source Java. welcome to the matrix, guys ;) On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA Looks like Doc java is pretty upset... -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Fwd: [VOTE RESULT] Apache Harmony (was Re: [VOTE]: On PROPOSAL : Apache Harmony - J2SE 5 Project)
FYI -- Forwarded message -- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: May 18, 2005 8:44 AM Subject: [VOTE RESULT] Apache Harmony (was Re: [VOTE]: On PROPOSAL : Apache Harmony - J2SE 5 Project) To: general@incubator.apache.org Here are the results from the voting on Apache Harmony. The proposal passes. Note that I screwed up and started voting on the Proposal thread, and many followed suit. With the intention of recognizing the intent of the voters, all are included here. I hope I got everyone. +1 for Vote thread == Noel Bergman (binding) Alex Karasulu Davanum Srinivas (binding) Geir Magnusson (binding) Paul Hammant (binding)* * provided copyright and trademark issues appropriately considered +0 from Vote thread === Niclas Hedhman -1 from Vote thread === none +1 from Proposal thread === Danese Cooper Erik Hatcher (binding) Roy Fielding (binding) Cliff Schmidt (binding) Sam Ruby (binding) Bruce Snyder Ted Leung (binding) Graham Legett Clinton Begin Steven Noels (binding) Jim Jagielski (binding) We already have the mail list and wiki resources. I'll be getting the rest (svn, etc) done ASAP. geir On May 6, 2005, at 7:18 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: +1 --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Against using Java to implement Java (Was: Java)
Weldon, One way to handle this is to write something up on the wiki (http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/) and ask people to comment and then incorporate the comments back. So that we have a record of the discussion and the conclusions. Yes, we need to stick to harmony-dev for now. Thanks, dims On 5/18/05, Weldon Washburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17 May 2005 18:27:42 -0600, Tom Tromey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David == David Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Maybe a concrete example would help. Let's say you have a GC module David written in C. One of it's API calls is to allocate a new object. How David is your JIT module going to produce code to use that API? Via a C David function pointer? Yes. One way is to mandate link- or compile-time pluggability only. Then this can be done by name. Your JIT just references 'harmony_allocate_object' in its source and uses this pointer in the code it generates. The other way is to have the JIT call some central function to get a pointer to the allocator function (or functions, in libgcj it turned out to be useful to have several). This only needs to be done once, at startup. For folks interested in pluggability, I advise downloading a copy of ORP and reading through it. ORP already solved these problems in a fairly reasonable way. Thanks. I am more than willing to respond to questions about ORP. Since ORP was last posted to open source, I have done some additional thinking about interfaces as well as JVM and .NET design in general. I really look forward to discussing these ideas. It would be great if we can quickly get to the point where we can discuss interface details. For example, I would like to start a detailed discussion on JIT and GC interface header files. Should we start this on the general harmony-dev list? Weldon Tom -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Introduction, and a question
nice to see u here sundar :) On 5/17/05, Subramanian, Sundar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My original intention of having a snapshot was not so much as to have a quick restart but to be able to migrate apps a la distributed JVM efforts (http://djvm.anu.edu.au/) as Steve has mentioned in this thread earlier. As you say I guess persistence along with machine specific JIT code might be a hard problem to solve. Sun's efforts in this direction is a good partial solution. But taking care of the environmental parameters like open JDBC connections etc would also have to be implemented if any movement in this direction is to be expected. Regards ~sundar -Original Message- From: Nick Lothian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 10:36 AM To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: RE: Introduction, and a question El lun, 16-05-2005 a las 16:08 +0530, Subramanian, Sundar escribió: (...) I guess what Brad is asking is for a snapshot of the state of JVM. This would be really useful to migrate stuff from one environment to another preserving the underlying state. I have mixed feelings about having a save image __a la__ Smalltalk, if this is what you are meaning. While delivering an image looks tempting, state gets corrupt in unpredictable ways, and having ways to track changes becomes a nightmare. The Smalltalk community has worked hard in this (hard) problem, but I'm still not sure if it would make sense in the java world. Java is a system-oriented language, and the ability to save the whole VM state and recover from this saved image would bring additional constraints to the Virtual Machine implementation. For instance, machine specific JIT code should be invalidated upon save, negating a substantial part of the advantages of a saved image (faster startup). This said, if VM implementors out there find easy ways to meet these constraints w/o burdening runtime or memory requirements, it could be an area for experimenting. This looks like it would be related to the stuff Sun has done with class data sharing in the 1.5 JVMs: When the JRE is installed on 32-bit platforms using the Sun provided installer, the installer loads a set of classes from the system jar file into a private internal representation, and dumps that representation to a file, called a shared archive. Class data sharing is not supported in Microsoft Windows 95/98/ME. If the Sun JRE installer is not being used, this can be done manually, as explained below. During subsequent JVM invocations, the shared archive is memory-mapped in, saving the cost of loading those classes and allowing much of the JVM's metadata for these classes to be shared among multiple JVM processes. [1] This isn't quite the same as saving JIT'ed code, but it sounds like it is saving the pre-parsed and verified class files. Nick [1] http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/vm/class-data-sharing.html IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or confidential information. If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its contents to any other party. This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do not necessarily reflect those of education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted with it for viruses or any other defects. education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or consequence caused directly or indirectly by this email. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Developing Harmony
Added your thoughts to wiki - http://wiki.apache.org/harmony thanks, dims On 5/13/05, Steve Blackburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am going to stick my neck out and make a few concrete suggestions for how the Harmony VM might be developed. A few motivating goals: o Focus on modular, interchangeable components - exploit existing compilers, memory managers etc - promote configurability (different components for different contexts) - allow diversity in development approaches - encourage large-scale contributions (here's a compiler) o Bootstrap the project rapidly - capture momentum - seed the project with an existing VM-core (or cores) o Design a clean core (or cores) from scratch - do this concurrently with work on components in existing core/s - the core should be lightweight - multiple cores may make sense - the needs of different contexts may require this - competing approaches may be healthy A concrete option: 1. Use two VMs as seeds a) Jikes RVM is a possible candidate . Focus energy on cleaning it up and modularizing it. This is something we've already begun (see earlier post), but will take a lot of work. + Get a very good optimizing compiler + Get an efficient and modular memory management toolkit (MMTk) - Need to deal with licensing issues and gain the consent of the community (not insurmountable) - Need hard work to achieve modularity goal for whole VM b) Another very different VM (kaffe?) . amenable to modularization . amenable to other components (drop in MMTk?) 2. Leverage extensive experience to build new core/s . Start with a clean slate . Leverage all of our diverse experience (gcj, kaffe, ovm, joqe, jnode,...) . Work concurrently with above work on components in old core/s, miminize loss of momentum, try to really think it through carefully. . May be sensible to develop more than one core 3. Develop new components . Extract components from existing work, apply to new VM/s . Develop new components from scratch . Encourage porting of existing compilers etc into this framework Alternative options: o Start with just one seed o There are many different ways... the above is indicative, not exclusive OK. So I've stuck my neck out. The above is vague and very ambitious, but those rough thoughts come out of a lot of experience with VM design---not just mine but the experience of those who I've been discussing this with and working with. A component based VM is not trivial at all. I've not mentioned any of the vast complexity that lies within a real VM. However, my experience with porting MMTk across some very different VMs (Jikes RVM--Java, Rotor--C/C++, and now working on porting to jnode--Java) gives me hope! Cheers, --Steve -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Where is Geir Magnusson?
was alive kicking a few mins back :) talked to him on IRC and over the phone :) :) -- dims On 5/13/05, Mladen Turk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the Geir made a .gif picture and seems like everybody said 'go go Geir'. So Geir, what are your thoughts on the subject? Are you still alive or what? Regards, Mladen -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: class file reader
java source files? or .class files? On 5/13/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there existing ASL/BSD/PD liscened sources for reading Java class files? Thank you, -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Developing Harmony
Panagiotis, MMTk is being used in SableVM (i think!) -- dims On 5/13/05, Panagiotis Astithas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Blackburn wrote: I am going to stick my neck out and make a few concrete suggestions for how the Harmony VM might be developed. A few motivating goals: o Focus on modular, interchangeable components - exploit existing compilers, memory managers etc - promote configurability (different components for different contexts) - allow diversity in development approaches - encourage large-scale contributions (here's a compiler) o Bootstrap the project rapidly - capture momentum - seed the project with an existing VM-core (or cores) o Design a clean core (or cores) from scratch - do this concurrently with work on components in existing core/s - the core should be lightweight - multiple cores may make sense - the needs of different contexts may require this - competing approaches may be healthy A concrete option: 1. Use two VMs as seeds a) Jikes RVM is a possible candidate . Focus energy on cleaning it up and modularizing it. This is something we've already begun (see earlier post), but will take a lot of work. + Get a very good optimizing compiler + Get an efficient and modular memory management toolkit (MMTk) - Need to deal with licensing issues and gain the consent of the community (not insurmountable) - Need hard work to achieve modularity goal for whole VM Could we interpret this as a positive response to Davanum Srinivas's request for a JVM donation to the project? b) Another very different VM (kaffe?) . amenable to modularization . amenable to other components (drop in MMTk?) Of all the options presented so far, what I find most appealing is the combination of a VM in Java (like JikesRVM) and a WAT approach like gcj or jcvm. In a sense that Harmony could enable either usage scenario, more or less like gcj does now. Would you think that MMTk could be used in say jcvm? Archie, would that make sense? 2. Leverage extensive experience to build new core/s . Start with a clean slate . Leverage all of our diverse experience (gcj, kaffe, ovm, joqe, jnode,...) . Work concurrently with above work on components in old core/s, miminize loss of momentum, try to really think it through carefully. . May be sensible to develop more than one core 3. Develop new components . Extract components from existing work, apply to new VM/s . Develop new components from scratch . Encourage porting of existing compilers etc into this framework Alternative options: o Start with just one seed o There are many different ways... the above is indicative, not exclusive OK. So I've stuck my neck out. The above is vague and very ambitious, but those rough thoughts come out of a lot of experience with VM design---not just mine but the experience of those who I've been discussing this with and working with. A component based VM is not trivial at all. I've not mentioned any of the vast complexity that lies within a real VM. However, my experience with porting MMTk across some very different VMs (Jikes RVM--Java, Rotor--C/C++, and now working on porting to jnode--Java) gives me hope! Cheers, --Steve Cheers, Panagiotis -- Panagiotis Astithas EBS, Electronic Business Systems Ltd. 18 Evgenidou Street, 115 25, Athens GREECE Phone: +30 210 674 7631 Fax: +30 210 674 7601 http://www.ebs.gr -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Sending native code to the processor at runtime
Andy, check the wiki. there are some papers of interest. -- dims On 5/13/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has been a considerable time since I did programming at that level but can someone tell me how: If you are running code, generate some binary code, how do you schedule it to run on the processor (and preferably in an unbounded way). I believe IIRC you can copy it into the code segment. Can someone point me to a good reference or better yet some reasonably well written source which does this? Thank you very much. -andy -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Where is Geir Magnusson?
Mladen, I have tried to keep the wiki up-to-date on stuff happening on the mailing list and on IRC (get any IRC client and point to irc.freenode.net and select channel #harmony) I have no idea on what personally geir/sun are up-to and what geir's plans are about public-speaking etc. that is not relevant to what's happening here on harmony-dev. If you find the wiki out of date from the stuff on the mailing lists, please update the wiki or point me to the missing piece (like yesterday i added JCVM contrib to the wiki). If you ask specific questions about the project and what has already been discussed, i will be happy to help. thanks, dims On 5/13/05, Mladen Turk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Mladen, Can you please join the IRC? then we can summarize what we talked to the lsit. Perhaps I could if I would know how to join ;) Since I'm the ASF member from the times when the things like IRC did not exist at all, I see no purpose why. I can either speak in public or not at all. You can eventually find me on Skype: callto://mladenturk Regards, Mladen. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Where is Geir Magnusson?
Ok. understood. -- dims On 5/13/05, Jeremy Boynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Mladen, Can you please join the IRC? then we can summarize what we talked to the lsit. Please, please don't put all the traffic on IRC. There are many many people interested in Harmony who do not have the bandwidth to sit there and despite best intentions summaries don't get posted often enough. IMO using IRC too heavily too early has led to lingering community issues in Geronimo - please don't repeat that. -- Jeremy -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Wishlist
Archie, Cool! i missed that, sorry. Added to wiki (http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/) under Volunteers with Contributions. Thanks. -- dims On 5/12/05, Archie Cobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: - Wish one or more of the existing VM's consider donating to Apache. FWIW (probably not much :-) I've already offered to; see the end of http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers, -Archie __ Archie Cobbs *CTO, Awarix* http://www.awarix.com -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [
ignore him :) On 5/12/05, FaeLLe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can somebody comment on this guys claims, http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20050507#death_to_apache Ps. warning: lot of flaming of our idealogies take place there but i would still like to see him shut up. -- www.FaeLLe.com http://www.FaeLLe.com -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Two seeds (Re: Developing Harmony)
oops. operator error (https://svn.sable.mcgill.ca/wsvn/sable/?rev=1732sc=1) threw me off. SableVM does not use MMTk. But still -- dims On 5/13/05, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, This is great!!! I love the idea of using JikesRVM and one another JVM (hey SableVM already uses MMTk, Kaffe's license is too difficult - though not impossible - to change because TransVirtual is no more). thanks, dims On 5/13/05, Steve Blackburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am going to stick my neck out and make a few concrete suggestions for how the Harmony VM might be developed. A few motivating goals: o Focus on modular, interchangeable components - exploit existing compilers, memory managers etc - promote configurability (different components for different contexts) - allow diversity in development approaches - encourage large-scale contributions (here's a compiler) o Bootstrap the project rapidly - capture momentum - seed the project with an existing VM-core (or cores) o Design a clean core (or cores) from scratch - do this concurrently with work on components in existing core/s - the core should be lightweight - multiple cores may make sense - the needs of different contexts may require this - competing approaches may be healthy A concrete option: 1. Use two VMs as seeds a) Jikes RVM is a possible candidate . Focus energy on cleaning it up and modularizing it. This is something we've already begun (see earlier post), but will take a lot of work. + Get a very good optimizing compiler + Get an efficient and modular memory management toolkit (MMTk) - Need to deal with licensing issues and gain the consent of the community (not insurmountable) - Need hard work to achieve modularity goal for whole VM b) Another very different VM (kaffe?) . amenable to modularization . amenable to other components (drop in MMTk?) 2. Leverage extensive experience to build new core/s . Start with a clean slate . Leverage all of our diverse experience (gcj, kaffe, ovm, joqe, jnode,...) . Work concurrently with above work on components in old core/s, miminize loss of momentum, try to really think it through carefully. . May be sensible to develop more than one core 3. Develop new components . Extract components from existing work, apply to new VM/s . Develop new components from scratch . Encourage porting of existing compilers etc into this framework Alternative options: o Start with just one seed o There are many different ways... the above is indicative, not exclusive OK. So I've stuck my neck out. The above is vague and very ambitious, but those rough thoughts come out of a lot of experience with VM design---not just mine but the experience of those who I've been discussing this with and working with. A component based VM is not trivial at all. I've not mentioned any of the vast complexity that lies within a real VM. However, my experience with porting MMTk across some very different VMs (Jikes RVM--Java, Rotor--C/C++, and now working on porting to jnode--Java) gives me hope! Cheers, --Steve -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: JIT vs. WAT
Great Question. adding it to my legal list :) On 5/13/05, Rodrigo Kumpera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be great to be GCJ compatible. Leveraging they effort with the binary ABI is a smart move and will promote more harmony instead of fragmentation between the java ahead-of-time systems. But this raises a question, can Harmony use GCJ's binary ABI without been GPL? Rodrigo On 5/13/05, Panagiotis Astithas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob wrote: IMHO both JITs and pre-compiling have their place.. it depends on the application whether one is definitely better than the other. Ideally, the design of harmony would allow for people to pursue both approaches and the two could coexist peacefully. This is a recipe for a bloated system that never works. Also, most app programmers don't want to worry about the details of how their program is compiled. -- Bob And how would a componentized system with multiple configuration choices force them to? The Sun JVM has many GC algorithms to choose from, yet many people are unaware of it and use happily the default. Cheers, Panagiotis -- Panagiotis Astithas EBS, Electronic Business Systems Ltd. 18 Evgenidou Street, 115 25, Athens GREECE Phone: +30 210 674 7631 Fax: +30 210 674 7601 http://www.ebs.gr -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Greg, Noel, Any ETA on when we can get some information from you regarding this? We are all anxiously waiting. As mentioned we need legal review and feedback regarding GPL+Exception and we need to get the ball rolling on getting our concerns cleared with the FSF folks. Thanks, dims PS: *Please* don't make us wait for the next board to take office. On 5/11/05, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Board and Incubator PMC, Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that they are willing to work with us on it. Thanks, dims [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: VM page
yes, anyone can modify the wiki. please go ahead and create a login id for yourself and make changes. thanks, -- dims On 5/12/05, Juan Leyva Delgado [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've found this article (http://www.dwheeler.com/java-imp.html) about Java implementations that looks very interesting. It can be used to complete your table, it has a big collection of VM implementations. This link should be added to the wiki also. Can anybody write in the wiki? I'm interested in traslating documents Juan - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: Wiki: VM page Mostly from comments on #harmony irc channel and browsing their sites, I've started a page to summarize all the JVMs that are being mentioned. For completeness sake, I've included the major commercial J2SE's. http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/JVM_Feature_Comparison I'm sure that I'm not alone on the list in being more interested in the class library than JVM, and a page like this will help us keep up with all of the VM discussions which naturally need to happen first/early. Along with the summary, I'd like to go further and try to describe the major open players, so will try to keep updating as I understand the special nature of each VM etc. Anyone have a url for J9 by the way? A quick bit of googling didn't get me there. Also, is there a different VM to J9 in the IBM JDK? Hen -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Thanks a ton Greg...Now its time for FSF folks to chime in with a legal opinion. -- dims CC'ing [EMAIL PROTECTED] as per dalibor on #classpath On 5/12/05, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dims, The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no hidden gotchas to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc. This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm unclear on what that resolution could propose for change. Any resolution will not be deferred to the next board, but it will be discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can make it happen. Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software, you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more constraining that our Apache License). Cheers, -g -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/ On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 07:59:58AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Greg, Noel, Any ETA on when we can get some information from you regarding this? We are all anxiously waiting. As mentioned we need legal review and feedback regarding GPL+Exception and we need to get the ball rolling on getting our concerns cleared with the FSF folks. Thanks, dims PS: *Please* don't make us wait for the next board to take office. On 5/11/05, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Board and Incubator PMC, Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that they are willing to work with us on it. Thanks, dims [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Ben, There a few folks who think otherwise w.r.t to the Exception being non-viral. This email was to get an official response from FSF in that regard. Once we get past that problem, we have to get an ok for provining a single bundle. I think 2 downloads to get a working JVM (say on M$ platform) is to say it mildly...crazy. -- dims On 5/12/05, Ben Laurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Stein wrote: Dims, The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no hidden gotchas to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc. This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm unclear on what that resolution could propose for change. Any resolution will not be deferred to the next board, but it will be discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can make it happen. Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software, you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more constraining that our Apache License). Classpath already does have an exception which would permit bundling of unrelated s/w without the GPL spreading to it. As I understand it, this at least means that we can combine ALed code with Classpath (of course, I maintain that we can combine ALed code with _any_ GPLed code, but the FSF like to disagree), though I agree that our current policies would prevent us providing it as part of a bundle. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Dear Greg, Noel, If my following statements are not correct. Please correct me ASAP. Folks, For now the situation is as follows (till someone takes a step, from ASF side or FSF side): - No one can check-in classpath jars or sources into Apache's SVN repo. - Java code in ASF SVN repository can import from classpath jars. - Classpath jars can't be part of the download/install image of Harmony. I guess, it gives us a narrow sliver to continue working till someone takes a step forward. which could be in a number of creative ways on both sides. I believe i've listed some possibilities in previous emails. others are welcome to chime in with other ideas as well. thanks, dims On 5/12/05, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dims, The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no hidden gotchas to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc. This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm unclear on what that resolution could propose for change. Any resolution will not be deferred to the next board, but it will be discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can make it happen. Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software, you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more constraining that our Apache License). Cheers, -g -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/ On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 07:59:58AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Greg, Noel, Any ETA on when we can get some information from you regarding this? We are all anxiously waiting. As mentioned we need legal review and feedback regarding GPL+Exception and we need to get the ball rolling on getting our concerns cleared with the FSF folks. Thanks, dims PS: *Please* don't make us wait for the next board to take office. On 5/11/05, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Board and Incubator PMC, Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that they are willing to work with us on it. Thanks, dims [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Mladen, there's tons of work for just a JVM. so we will start with that. are u saying that for example Tomcat should not use *ANY* external jars? Yes, we can use APR to do the JVM. -- dims On 5/12/05, Mladen Turk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Dear Board and Incubator PMC, Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Will something like that make sense at all, even if the license is acceptable, and you guys figure out all the legal issues. GNU Classpath is a project of its own, so I wonder how Harmony as an ASF project can be a project after all if depending on another project maintained somewhere else? If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this qualify for a project after all? IMHO the ASF has much more transparent OS abstraction layer (APR) then either classpath or any other library has. Also developing that is less demanding task then JVM/JIT/GC etc... is thought. Regards, Mladen. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
dropping [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] See below: On 5/12/05, Mladen Turk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Mladen, there's tons of work for just a JVM. so we will start with that. are u saying that for example Tomcat should not use *ANY* external jars? You missed the point. JVM without class library is not J2SE. It is only JVM. Is the intention to build a JVM or J2SE compatible project? AFAICT, one of the goals is to pass the TCK's, so how can you do that if you don't have a full control over the major part of the package? Using the GNU Classpath or what ever *ANY* external library is just a feature, not a part of the product itself (at least not an J2SE compatible product). Mladen, that's why it was not mentioned in the initial proposal. Eventually its upto the people who are working on the project to make the decisions. Yes, we can use APR to do the JVM. Well, its up to the designers to decide what technology will be used. I just think that APR is a great thing for that kind of project. Yep. you are right. I said *can* and not *should*. Regards, Mladen. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Santiago, if we use classpath...we will need the 2 kinds of hooks into classpath (see http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/ for the links) thanks, dims On 5/12/05, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: El jue, 12-05-2005 a las 11:07 -0400, Davanum Srinivas escribió: - Java code in ASF SVN repository can import from classpath jars. AFAICT, this is irrelevant for Java code, as classpath public interface strives to be just java.* and javax.*, and thus, we would be importing the same classes that if we use IBM or Sun JRE, i.e. even if classpath was a pure GPL project we would not be doing any derivative work by using it at runtime (if deployed independently). I remember discussion on this issue WRT jdbc GPL/LGPL drivers in the past. Conclusion was that, as calling just javax.jdbc.* namespace would make it safe any non-redistributing use. (You could be meaning we will be using private classpath calls, but this does not look healthy for cross-compatibility with other JVM implementations) OTOH, writing or modifying the primitives that classpath uses to interface with the jvm is a tougher matter WRT licensing, etc. Regards -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU BodyID:1002229274.2.n.logpart (stored separately) -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Against using Java to implement Java (Was: Java)
Ravi, can you please add the link to the wiki as well. thanks, dims On 5/14/05, Ravi kiran Gorrepati [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Check the design of Jikes at, http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/391/alpern.pdf Though the memory subsytem section is a little outdated, that should not prevent you from understanding how it works. -- Ravi On Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:12 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 May 2005, at 12:17, theUser BL wrote: I hope you use C to write the VM for Harmony. Forgive me if I am repeating what others have already said - I'm a bit late to this. Bootstrapping the whole thing in Java is a very clever idea, but what about the management of the heap (GC etc)? Presumably that would have to be done in some layered system, with a very simplistic GC in the bootstrap VM, with layers of extra logic on top of it? Or am I missing something? If so, what sort of performance hit would this have? I agree that in many ways it is a Good Thing, but so was Sun's handle redirection stuff (where an object reference referred to a table, that referred to the object) but Microsoft's Bad Way of simply linking to the object ran much quicker. In fact, didn't Sun eventually switch to that way of working? I think there was something about it in Simon Ritter's talk on GC at last year's London Java Tech days. I know very little about all this (so please beat me only with a very small stick and in a loving manner) but would it be possible to start with an existing(?) JVM written in C/C++ and then start to migrate it part by part into Java? Taking the baby steps approach, couldn't we work out exactly where the log-jams are likely to be? And then get as much as we can in Java, so long as it doesn't have a significant impact on performance? Would taking the C/C++ -- Java approach mean that we could base our discussions upon the evidence of the code, and less upon subjective belief? More ground up and less BUFD? DG -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Wishlist
In a lighter vein... - Wish we could resolve the licensing discussions and move on. - Wish one or more of the existing VM's consider donating to Apache. - Wish some of the BigCo's help with code and worker bees. - Wish we get to our first Hello World! soon. - Wish we end hunger/poverty/war all over the world (*) thanks, dims (*) Hey this is a wishlist. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
yep. makes sense (dropping [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- dims On 5/12/05, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: El jue, 12-05-2005 a las 13:08 -0400, Davanum Srinivas escribió: if we use classpath...we will need the 2 kinds of hooks into classpath (see http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/ for the links) The I guess the statement should rather be: - code in ASF SVN repository can import from classpath jars. i.e. s/Java//, because the only hooks caring about license dissonance would be those from the VMs (which could be written in a number of languages) and classpath itself. The VMs could be written in a number of languages, including C# or java itself (IBM had such a beastie, IIRC). Which lends to a natural proposal: put the native code hooks in Classpath into a BSDish or PD license, and we have a nice interface for different groups (JVM writers, java library writers) to write to, meeting there from both directions if needed. WDYT? Regards (I subscribed today to harmony-dev and have not looked into the archives yet, which could make this idea completely redundant. Sorry if so.) -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU BodyID:1002374037.2.n.logpart (stored separately) -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: [gnu.org #239354] Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Awesome! thanks. -- dims On 5/12/05, Dave Turner via RT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are some questions to think about: What restrictions would Apache be willing to accept and still use Classpath as part of Apache? What restrictions would be totally unacceptable? We are working on the Classpath license, and would love to hear Apache's views. It may be that Apache's desires and ours here are incompatible -- this happens a lot, since Apache doesn't like copyleft and FSF does. But if there might be a middle position, which Classpath could take, which would be acceptable to everyone, it's worth looking into. Let's talk about this at the next meeting. -- -Dave Novalis Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Free Software Foundation -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: I hope the JVM implements most using Java itself
Steve, is there some writeup on the your approach to making JikesRVM modular and composable? thanks, dims On 5/11/05, Steve Blackburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Larry, I understand your sentiment. I am also a pragmatist. One of my major missions over the past year or so has been cleaning up Jikes RVM to make it more modular and composable. We've nearly got there with memory management, but still have a way to go with the other components. Why is this important? Because I want to make it easier for people to contribute to the project. Not just in terms of a few lines here or there, or a bell or a whistle, but I want people to be able to drop in alternative compilers, alternative GC algorithms etc. Unless the framework is right the impedance becomes too high and the rate of non-trivial contribution drops off to a trickle. Getting the framework right after the fact is an enormous task. The fundamental architecture of the VM is what makes or breaks it. The just get it out the door approach has its merits for some projects, but for something as complex as this, if you want the thing to last---which we do---give some thought to the architecture before you throw it over the fence. Choosing to build it in Java or C/C++ is a relatively unimportant issue for most projects, but for a JVM it will have a significant impact on the architecture. The goal posts are moving very fast, in terms of the spec, in terms of the competing technology, and in terms of the architectural targets. Thus the importance of ongoing non-trivial contributions is enormous with a project such as this. This is why I brought it up now (and that is why I prefaced my original comments the way I did). --Steve Larry Meadors wrote: Despite my earlier Mono comment, I could not possibly care less what is used to build the JVM. Use Ruby if it gets the job done. My vote would be to use whatever gets it done quickly and correctly. IMO, focusing on performance at this point is important, but not critical. First priority: Get it out the door, and make sure it is easy to build so everyone who want to tweak it can. Second priority: Work with the community to make it faster and more stable than anything anyone has ever seen. -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: mudGE JavaVM.
Tom, is the code available for browsing? thanks, dims On 5/11/05, Tom van Dijck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm new to the list after I received an email from Jason Hunter suggesting to subscribe, and I have not yet taken the time to read all previous threads so I'm sorry if I'm interrupting any discussions. Anyway, after reading the press release I got very interested in this project since for the last couple of months I've been writting a fully J2SE compatible JavaVM, although without a JIT currently, it does executes all bytecode compiled by the latest version of the sun compiler. I'm currently working on the debugger interface for integration with eclipse. Now, of course there are lost of other VM's out there so this one isn't anything special, but it does follow the harmony.jpg design a great deal, which is why I though sharing it might be of any use. It is written fully from ground up, doesn't use any other GPL'ed code anywhere, and runs on pretty much all platforms I've tested it on. (Playstation2, Xbox, PC, Gamecube) One detail though is that since I'm using it on game platforms and use it as a scripting engine, I have written a very small and custom runtime, which doesn't follow any of the J2SE standards. Well, uhm... I would be more then happy to share and learn, in case of interest that is. Tom van Dijck Research Development Playlogic Game Factory www.playlogicgames.com -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
