RE: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
sheldon kirshner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The line is Schmidt, Geyer, Leuchnik (sp?), Lewis (although Lewis' link with Geyer is also direct and personal). Shel I guess I have to call into question the comment that Steve Lewis' link with Geyer is "direct." Lewis arrived in Chicago a full 2 years after Carl retired (the shop was closed by March 1970 and Carl -age 89- had only showed up 1-2 days a week for several months before that). There is no record nor recollection by anyone associated with the shop that Lewis ever worked in the shop, or in any way worked with Carl. He did visit with Carl at his home in 1972, but that in no way implies a direct (master/apprentice??) link. Many individuals worked in the shop doing repairs and cleanup (primarily to free up Carl to build horns), none of whom, other than Paul Navarro and possibly George Strucel (in the early '50s) and Carl's son Robert (in the mid '30s), actually worked on the new instruments under Carl's direction. Jerry Leichnuik was a master brass worker in his own right when he joined the shop but did not work on the new instruments (which he was perfectly qualified to do), only doing repair work. Remember, this was not a horn factory turning out several instruments a week, this was a one-man shop and Carl was slowing down; he could still build horns, but all the other grunt work (which, by the way, paid the bills) could be done by others. Peter ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Dick, Thanks for the linked info. Relative thereto, Geyer told me (in the late 50s) that he tried to get East German valves whenever he could. (Smuggled in I would assume--perhaps Hans or someone else would have a comment on this) When he couldn't get them he did have a source for what he considered very good American valves. Perhaps he got valves elsewhere, as well. Shel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dick Martz Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:01 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History Hi, Guys Here's what I have to offer about C.F. Schmidt: http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/schmidt/cfschmidt.html My first horn was a Schmidt-like object with no label so I've aiways been fond of them. I had to trade it in for an 8-D when I moved to the Philadelphia area: http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/schmidt/ Dick Martz -- http://www.rjmartz.com/horns Horn Collection -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Geyer did work for Wunderlich and there was a definite connection with > Schmidt, expecially for parts, in that shop. If Paul Navarro is on the list, I > think he knows the history well as he apprenticed with Geyer as did others > including Lowell Greer and Ron Pinc. > > KB > > In a message dated 2/1/2008 2:53:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Shel writes: > > It's always been my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that Geyer > worked for Schmidt and learned the business from him. The line is = > Schmidt, > Geyer, Leuchnik (sp?), Lewis (although Lewis' link with Geyer is also = > direct > and personal). > > > > > > > > **Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003 0002 > 5 > 48) > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rjmartz.lists%40att.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History slightly off topic
Steve Mumford said: "There was a non-ferrous mill in Elkhart in the old days." It must have been a fairly big operation as there were several makers of the old soda-acid fire extinguishers (the kind you had to hold upside down and a foaming liquid came out of) in Elkhart. I think somewhere in the barn I have one (minus the chemicals) that is actually branded Elkhart and has a large elk hart on it. Dana Twiss Litchfield, Maine ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Hi, Guys Here's what I have to offer about C.F. Schmidt: http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/schmidt/cfschmidt.html My first horn was a Schmidt-like object with no label so I've aiways been fond of them. I had to trade it in for an 8-D when I moved to the Philadelphia area: http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/schmidt/ Dick Martz -- http://www.rjmartz.com/horns Horn Collection -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Geyer did work for Wunderlich and there was a definite connection with > Schmidt, expecially for parts, in that shop. If Paul Navarro is on the > list, I > think he knows the history well as he apprenticed with Geyer as did others > including Lowell Greer and Ron Pinc. > > KB > > In a message dated 2/1/2008 2:53:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Shel writes: > > It's always been my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that Geyer > worked for Schmidt and learned the business from him. The line is = > Schmidt, > Geyer, Leuchnik (sp?), Lewis (although Lewis' link with Geyer is also = > direct > and personal). > > > > > > > > **Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp0030002 > 5 > 48) > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rjmartz.lists%40att.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Geyer did work for Wunderlich and there was a definite connection with Schmidt, expecially for parts, in that shop. If Paul Navarro is on the list, I think he knows the history well as he apprenticed with Geyer as did others including Lowell Greer and Ron Pinc. KB In a message dated 2/1/2008 2:53:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Shel writes: It's always been my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that Geyer worked for Schmidt and learned the business from him. The line is = Schmidt, Geyer, Leuchnik (sp?), Lewis (although Lewis' link with Geyer is also = direct and personal). **Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300025 48) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Geyer didn't train with Schmidt, although he did build Schmidt model horns. He trained in Markneukirchen, which was and still is a mecca for instrument building of all kinds. There was a non-ferrous mill in Elkhart in the old days and Conn was able to get some custom alloys. I don't know specifically about the 8Ds, but you can easily notice that the alloy they used on the Elkhart horns was much different than what Conn uses today. They had a wonderful gold brass that they used for cornet and trumpet bells and on the old 6D (Schmidt) model. That alloy was chosen by listening to bells made from many different alloys and that particular gold brass won out. Remember the old 88H trombones with the red brass bells? Same deal. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
I don't know specifically in the case of Kruspe or Schmidt, but Geyer did not use a mandrel to make leadpipes. He had a flat pattern he traced onto a sheet of brass which he then cut out and rolled into a tapered tube. After filing the edges a bit to clean them up the seam was brazed and, voila, a leadpipe. As you can imagine, there's a certain amount of randomness involved in such a process. The original pattern was basically a straight taper but the filing and brazing could result in some slight in and out, here and there, from time to time, more or less. I have scratched my head over many Kruspe and Schmidt pipes, marveling at some apparently random deviations. Could be from the same method, I'd say more likely with Schmidt, maybe with Kruspe too. Conn, of course, used a steel mandrel and the leadpipes were drawn down to the mandrel, yielding hopefully the same results each time. I did hear a story from someone who was called in to consult. Conn had gotten some complaints that the horns weren't playing as well. He asked for the drawings and the mandrels, and when he compared them, he found the mandrels had worn smaller from use over time. Pobody's nerfect! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
So, what exactly was Conn's "boo-boo"? Just the use of German Silver, or the whole megillah? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 2:20 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History Dave, no need for puzzles here. The whole thing is a clear as the view from Mt. Washington, assuming it's not snowing. Conn copied the Kruspe Horner Model and experimented with the tapers with the assistance of professionals at the time. Wrap and general dimensions got copied verbatim. Valves were already being produced by them and they used their "American" size tubing for the cylindrical portions to give it a .468 bore. Kruspe bores were metric, and a few thousandths difference is no big deal. The input from the players was that the Schmidt (6D) pipe played better than the Kruspe copy pipe, so they went with that. The two pipes are not so different to really change much, as I mentioned before, as they are both long, F horn tapers. As to sound, I think they used what was known then in America as "German Silver." As we all know, this alloy contains no silver at all and is copper/nickel/zinc in composition. The trade name these days is "nickel silver." That's what they thought the Kruspe was so that's what they ordered from Anaconda or whomever at the time. Walter's research, which you have so accurately detailed, showed that the pre-war Kruspe was a nickel-bronze. Bob Fitzmorris, who worked for Anacaonda and helped Walter immensely through the years, told Walter that in Germany, alloys had different names than here, and they still do. What we call "red brass" or Alloy 230, they call "Goldmessing" which translates as "gold brass." Now, how many horn players here call "yellow or cartridge brass," or Alloy 260, "gold brass" which in Germany is know as "messing." So, in Germany in the 1930's, I'm sure there were various copper-nickel alloys with various names. To complicate it, there was no international numbering standard as there is today. To make a long story short, the closest alloy that Anaconda makes now to the Kruspe assay is nickel bronze. No zinc, as in nickel "German" silver, but with a small tin content and a touch of lead. I have no idea what this is called in Germany, but the German maker(s) who will make a NS horn today use the the nickel silver alloy 752, same as Conn, Holton, Yamaha, etc. Computer analysis and well trained human ears can tell a difference in the sounds of nickel silver and nickel bronze bell flares. Walter was after the "Kruspe" sound and so were other players at the time, including myself. I use to sit in the Philly orchestra looking at Mason's, Nolan's and Glenn's Kruspes and wondering why they had a different patina than the Conn in my lap. Walter figured it out some years later. There are over 400 copper alloys available used for just about every commercial use imaginable. More info at _www.copper.org_ (http://www.copper.org) for interested parties. My teacher, Prof. I.M. Gestopftmitscheist, in analyzing some other alloys for his new model horn, a brilliantly designed copy of the Amborg copy of the Olds copy of the Conn 6D, except he is using a leadpipe copied from a Maxtone. So far, testing has revealed that a lightly annealed, cryogenically treated, slightly corroded but recently cleaned with CLR Stained Steel bell flare has the most killing power at 500 yards whilst retaining the warmth of sound characteristic of a fine tuned Getzen two valved alto bugle so popular in the days before DCI allowed 3 valves. As you know, the Getzen was bright nickel plated, which has been so widely adopted of late by fine makers in the far east who sell primarily on e-Bay. But, alas, the professor still cannot answer my perennial question: "What if Dennis Brain had had a triple horn?" KB Kendall, I'm a little puzzled by your comparison of the Conn 8D and the Kruspe (by which I assume you mean the Horner model). If Conn copied the 8D pipe from the Schmidt, not the Kruspe, then were they trying to copy the Kruspe or the Schmidt? Even with a Schmidt-model pipe on it, would the 8D have sounded "closer" to the Kruspe if they had used a bronze rather nickel-silver? Also, I'm kind of wondering if Conn even had access to the same alloy as Kruspe? Could they have copied the Kruspe exactly, down to the alloy? I recall a conversation I had with Walt Lawson a couple years ago about their assay of Kruspe bell metal. The first attempt yielded a strange assay, which included, among the usual elements you'd expect,?lead, about 3 percent tin, and so
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Dave, no need for puzzles here. The whole thing is a clear as the view from Mt. Washington, assuming it's not snowing. Conn copied the Kruspe Horner Model and experimented with the tapers with the assistance of professionals at the time. Wrap and general dimensions got copied verbatim. Valves were already being produced by them and they used their "American" size tubing for the cylindrical portions to give it a .468 bore. Kruspe bores were metric, and a few thousandths difference is no big deal. The input from the players was that the Schmidt (6D) pipe played better than the Kruspe copy pipe, so they went with that. The two pipes are not so different to really change much, as I mentioned before, as they are both long, F horn tapers. As to sound, I think they used what was known then in America as "German Silver." As we all know, this alloy contains no silver at all and is copper/nickel/zinc in composition. The trade name these days is "nickel silver." That's what they thought the Kruspe was so that's what they ordered from Anaconda or whomever at the time. Walter's research, which you have so accurately detailed, showed that the pre-war Kruspe was a nickel-bronze. Bob Fitzmorris, who worked for Anacaonda and helped Walter immensely through the years, told Walter that in Germany, alloys had different names than here, and they still do. What we call "red brass" or Alloy 230, they call "Goldmessing" which translates as "gold brass." Now, how many horn players here call "yellow or cartridge brass," or Alloy 260, "gold brass" which in Germany is know as "messing." So, in Germany in the 1930's, I'm sure there were various copper-nickel alloys with various names. To complicate it, there was no international numbering standard as there is today. To make a long story short, the closest alloy that Anaconda makes now to the Kruspe assay is nickel bronze. No zinc, as in nickel "German" silver, but with a small tin content and a touch of lead. I have no idea what this is called in Germany, but the German maker(s) who will make a NS horn today use the the nickel silver alloy 752, same as Conn, Holton, Yamaha, etc. Computer analysis and well trained human ears can tell a difference in the sounds of nickel silver and nickel bronze bell flares. Walter was after the "Kruspe" sound and so were other players at the time, including myself. I use to sit in the Philly orchestra looking at Mason's, Nolan's and Glenn's Kruspes and wondering why they had a different patina than the Conn in my lap. Walter figured it out some years later. There are over 400 copper alloys available used for just about every commercial use imaginable. More info at _www.copper.org_ (http://www.copper.org) for interested parties. My teacher, Prof. I.M. Gestopftmitscheist, in analyzing some other alloys for his new model horn, a brilliantly designed copy of the Amborg copy of the Olds copy of the Conn 6D, except he is using a leadpipe copied from a Maxtone. So far, testing has revealed that a lightly annealed, cryogenically treated, slightly corroded but recently cleaned with CLR Stained Steel bell flare has the most killing power at 500 yards whilst retaining the warmth of sound characteristic of a fine tuned Getzen two valved alto bugle so popular in the days before DCI allowed 3 valves. As you know, the Getzen was bright nickel plated, which has been so widely adopted of late by fine makers in the far east who sell primarily on e-Bay. But, alas, the professor still cannot answer my perennial question: "What if Dennis Brain had had a triple horn?" KB Kendall, I'm a little puzzled by your comparison of the Conn 8D and the Kruspe (by which I assume you mean the Horner model). If Conn copied the 8D pipe from the Schmidt, not the Kruspe, then were they trying to copy the Kruspe or the Schmidt? Even with a Schmidt-model pipe on it, would the 8D have sounded "closer" to the Kruspe if they had used a bronze rather nickel-silver? Also, I'm kind of wondering if Conn even had access to the same alloy as Kruspe? Could they have copied the Kruspe exactly, down to the alloy? I recall a conversation I had with Walt Lawson a couple years ago about their assay of Kruspe bell metal. The first attempt yielded a strange assay, which included, among the usual elements you'd expect,?lead, about 3 percent tin, and some iron. It was only after they realized where and how on the bell they'd gotten the sample that they understood what was going on: They had used an iron file to remove a sample from the ferrule end of the bell, which included shavings from the bell, the solder, and metal from the file itself! A better sample yielded a more typical assay of a bronze. Walt told me that lead them to explore the properties of bronzes, and to find a standard alloy that closely matched the properties they were
[Hornlist] RE: C.F. Schmidt
Kendall, from what I understand, only 1 Kruspe flare was assayed, and given the very nature of handmade instruments of that vintage, there was probably a great deal of variance between the alloys available to Kruspe at the time, thus I don't believe that there is a 'standard' Kruspe alloy. Having worked on hundreds of these older Kruspes and 8d's, I would not agree that it was the difference in alloys used in the mouthpipe that accounts for the difference in sound. (Was the Kruspe mouthpipe assayed as well? Or just the flare?) Kruspe instruments had seamed tubing throughout their entire length, and if one takes measurements they'll find that it is nowhere near concentric. (Conn horns of that vintage hold their diameter throughout the bends far better than did the Kruspes). The earlier Kruspes also did not have as well fit valves as did the 8D's that followed. Basically, Kruspes were made to the best standard possibilities at that time, which would not fare as well in modern times. Now tubing is extruded or drawn, not handhammered around a mandrel - causing it to keep it's internal dimensions with far more accuracy. So, perhaps it was these inaccuracies in the building process which gave them their fabulous sound (and horrendous scale). These are just a few of the MANY differences between the Horner model and the 8D. I could fill pages with other differences between them. Lastly - Conn didn't really make a 'boo-boo' - they ended up making a horn that was the touchstone in American hornplaying for about 2 decades, and to this day (though, the current product is not like the earlier model), they sell more horns than just about anyone! My final point would be that one can do all the designing he wants on a computer, perhaps they can even build what they claim to be a 'perfect' horn, but as a Kruspe, Geyer, or Schmidt can show you - they can't give you that golden sound associated with many of the older horns. Horn design is both a Science AND an Art. Believe your ears, not a computer printout! Sincerely Ken Pope <> "Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow" http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns & Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 "Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow" http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns & Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard V. West Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:39 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History Thanks Kendall, and Steve Mumford, too, for the corrected information on Schmidt and the American horn makers. It's always good to get things straight, especially given the lack of documentation and the "urban legends" that have grown up around horn making (perhaps "fabrication" would be good word to use here) and makers. Richard in Seattle It's always been my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that Geyer worked for Schmidt and learned the business from him. The line is Schmidt, Geyer, Leuchnik (sp?), Lewis (although Lewis' link with Geyer is also direct and personal). Shel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
>From what I know, Horner worked exclusively with Kruspe. Maybe they knew Schmidt? Hard to say. There was a predecessor model, the "Fritz" that Kruspe made, and the Horner model is similar to that. I think all the German makers of the time got patents for double horn designs and built there own models. These included Alexander, Knopf, Kruspe and Schmidt. All were widely copied later on and still are used by makers today. Kruspe had several patents, including the Wendler, Milano, and Gumbert models. Alex had a patent for the 103, etc. Maybe Hans knows more? KB In a message dated 1/31/2008 1:01:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kendall, To help me understand this, did the Horner Model Kruspe develop parallel with the Schmidt, or did Horner "borrow" a little of the Schmidt design when he went to Kruspe? On 1/30/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Actually, the 8D leadpipe is copied from the Schmidt, as are many others > including Geyer, Reynolds, King, Olds, Holton, generic Allied, etc. It's > a > long, gradual F horn taper. It's probably a better pipe than the Kruspe > pipes in > regard to intonation but both have upper register problems. It's the > alloy > where Conn really made a boo-boo. They used plain old nickel-silver and > not > the nickel-bronze type alloy that Kruspe used. That helps explain the > difference in sound between silver Kruspe's and the Conn 8D. Close, but > not quite > a cigar. > > As Howard mentioned, Schmidt's were fine instruments and used by many top > players including John Barrows, Jim Buffington, Forrest Standley, Dick > Mackey, > and Dale Clevenger. The Conn 4D and 6D tapers were copied from the > Schmidt > and wrapped up different. > > KB > > > In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:01:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > The Conn 8D was modeled after the Horner model Kruspe. The Schmidt > features a piston F/Bb change valve, rather than a rotary valve. Many > people, especially with smaller hands, have found this awkward. Several > Schmidt owners have had a metal lever extension made to replace the > piston button in order to minimize the stretch. > > Conn, however, at one time did make a Schmidt copy double horn. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Kruspe pipes are long F horn tapers as well. The main difference is that the Kruspe pipes I've seen had more "bumps" or "bubbles," (wider or narrower spots in the taper) than the Schmidt or 8D pipe.. Why, I don't know but in general those can have an effect on both sound and response. If in the right place, they can fix problems, in the wrong place, they can cause problems. Or both! KB In a message dated 1/31/2008 1:01:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mr. Betts, May I pick your brain? What are the differences in taper between the Kruspe pipe and the Schmidt pipe and what do they do to the playing feel/sound? Just curious! Aleks Ozolins **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Kendall, I'm a little puzzled by your comparison of the Conn 8D and the Kruspe (by which I assume you mean the Horner model). If Conn copied the 8D pipe from the Schmidt, not the Kruspe, then were they trying to copy the Kruspe or the Schmidt? Even with a Schmidt-model pipe on it, would the 8D have sounded "closer" to the Kruspe if they had used a bronze rather nickel-silver? Also, I'm kind of wondering if Conn even had access to the same alloy as Kruspe? Could they have copied the Kruspe exactly, down to the alloy? I recall a conversation I had with Walt Lawson a couple years ago about their assay of Kruspe bell metal. The first attempt yielded a strange assay, which included, among the usual elements you'd expect,?lead, about 3 percent tin, and some iron. It was only after they realized where and how on the bell they'd gotten the sample that they understood what was going on: They had used an iron file to remove a sample from the ferrule end of the bell, which included shavings from the bell, the solder, and metal from the file itself! A better sample yielded a more typical assay of a bronze. Walt told me that lead them to explore the properties of bronzes, and to find a standard alloy that closely matched the properties they were looking for. The point is that when Walt wanted a bronze, he couldn't just duplicate the assay - he had to acquire a standard alloy because that's all that was available. So if only standard alloys are generally available these days, I'm wondering if this wou ld have been the case back when Conn was making the original 8D? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 1:50 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History Actually, the 8D leadpipe is copied from the Schmidt, as are many others including Geyer, Reynolds, King, Olds, Holton, generic Allied, etc. It's a long, gradual F horn taper. It's probably a better pipe than the Kruspe pipes in regard to intonation but both have upper register problems. It's the alloy where Conn really made a boo-boo. They used plain old nickel-silver and not the nickel-bronze type alloy that Kruspe used. That helps explain the difference in sound between silver Kruspe's and the Conn 8D. Close, but not quite a cigar. As Howard mentioned, Schmidt's were fine instruments and used by many top players including John Barrows, Jim Buffington, Forrest Standley, Dick Mackey, and Dale Clevenger. The Conn 4D and 6D tapers were copied from the Schmidt and wrapped up different. KB In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:01:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Conn 8D was modeled after the Horner model Kruspe. The Schmidt features a piston F/Bb change valve, rather than a rotary valve. Many people, especially with smaller hands, have found this awkward. Several Schmidt owners have had a metal lever extension made to replace the piston button in order to minimize the stretch. Conn, however, at one time did make a Schmidt copy double horn. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brassartsunlim%40aol.com More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Thanks Kendall, and Steve Mumford, too, for the corrected information on Schmidt and the American horn makers. It's always good to get things straight, especially given the lack of documentation and the "urban legends" that have grown up around horn making (perhaps "fabrication" would be good word to use here) and makers. Richard in Seattle KendallBetts wrote: Actually, the 8D leadpipe is copied from the Schmidt, as are many others including Geyer, Reynolds, King, Olds, Holton, generic Allied, etc. It's a long, gradual F horn taper. It's probably a better pipe than the Kruspe pipes in regard to intonation but both have upper register problems. It's the alloy where Conn really made a boo-boo. They used plain old nickel-silver and not the nickel-bronze type alloy that Kruspe used. That helps explain the difference in sound between silver Kruspe's and the Conn 8D. Close, but not quite a cigar. As Howard mentioned, Schmidt's were fine instruments and used by many top players including John Barrows, Jim Buffington, Forrest Standley, Dick Mackey, and Dale Clevenger. The Conn 4D and 6D tapers were copied from the Schmidt and wrapped up different. KB Steve Mumford wrote: Although it has been said, it isn't at all true. Many of the Conn Schmidt model horns said "made in Germany" on the valve lever support. That was true only of the rotary valve set which was made by Martin Peter in Germany, not the same valves used by Schmidt. The rest of the horn, including the piston valve, bell, crooks etc., etc. was good ole Elkhart construction. The Conn Schmidt model was known as the 6D. It was retired in '34 (?) and they started making the 6D we're more familiar with today, having the rotary thumb valve. By then, the rotary valves were made by Conn themselves. Buescher did a similar thing. They had a horn in the 20s that looked exactly like an Alexander 103. The valves were made in Germany, the rest of the parts were made in Elkhart. They were not the same valves used by Alex. York had a Schmidt model horn with German rotary valves, everything else made by York. There were later iterations that were completely made in Italy and branded York. King made everything in-house! Hard core all they way! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Kendall, To help me understand this, did the Horner Model Kruspe develop parallel with the Schmidt, or did Horner "borrow" a little of the Schmidt design when he went to Kruspe? On 1/30/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Actually, the 8D leadpipe is copied from the Schmidt, as are many others > including Geyer, Reynolds, King, Olds, Holton, generic Allied, etc. It's > a > long, gradual F horn taper. It's probably a better pipe than the Kruspe > pipes in > regard to intonation but both have upper register problems. It's the > alloy > where Conn really made a boo-boo. They used plain old nickel-silver and > not > the nickel-bronze type alloy that Kruspe used. That helps explain the > difference in sound between silver Kruspe's and the Conn 8D. Close, but > not quite > a cigar. > > As Howard mentioned, Schmidt's were fine instruments and used by many top > players including John Barrows, Jim Buffington, Forrest Standley, Dick > Mackey, > and Dale Clevenger. The Conn 4D and 6D tapers were copied from the > Schmidt > and wrapped up different. > > KB > > > In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:01:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > The Conn 8D was modeled after the Horner model Kruspe. The Schmidt > features a piston F/Bb change valve, rather than a rotary valve. Many > people, especially with smaller hands, have found this awkward. Several > Schmidt owners have had a metal lever extension made to replace the > piston button in order to minimize the stretch. > > Conn, however, at one time did make a Schmidt copy double horn. > > > > > > **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Mr. Betts, May I pick your brain? What are the differences in taper between the Kruspe pipe and the Schmidt pipe and what do they do to the playing feel/sound? Just curious! Aleks Ozolins On Jan 30, 2008, at 1:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, the 8D leadpipe is copied from the Schmidt, as are many others including Geyer, Reynolds, King, Olds, Holton, generic Allied, etc. It's a long, gradual F horn taper. It's probably a better pipe than the Kruspe pipes in regard to intonation but both have upper register problems. It's the alloy where Conn really made a boo-boo. They used plain old nickel- silver and not the nickel-bronze type alloy that Kruspe used. That helps explain the difference in sound between silver Kruspe's and the Conn 8D. Close, but not quite a cigar. As Howard mentioned, Schmidt's were fine instruments and used by many top players including John Barrows, Jim Buffington, Forrest Standley, Dick Mackey, and Dale Clevenger. The Conn 4D and 6D tapers were copied from the Schmidt and wrapped up different. KB In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:01:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Conn 8D was modeled after the Horner model Kruspe. The Schmidt features a piston F/Bb change valve, rather than a rotary valve. Many people, especially with smaller hands, have found this awkward. Several Schmidt owners have had a metal lever extension made to replace the piston button in order to minimize the stretch. Conn, however, at one time did make a Schmidt copy double horn. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/aleks%40aleksozolins.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Actually, the 8D leadpipe is copied from the Schmidt, as are many others including Geyer, Reynolds, King, Olds, Holton, generic Allied, etc. It's a long, gradual F horn taper. It's probably a better pipe than the Kruspe pipes in regard to intonation but both have upper register problems. It's the alloy where Conn really made a boo-boo. They used plain old nickel-silver and not the nickel-bronze type alloy that Kruspe used. That helps explain the difference in sound between silver Kruspe's and the Conn 8D. Close, but not quite a cigar. As Howard mentioned, Schmidt's were fine instruments and used by many top players including John Barrows, Jim Buffington, Forrest Standley, Dick Mackey, and Dale Clevenger. The Conn 4D and 6D tapers were copied from the Schmidt and wrapped up different. KB In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:01:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Conn 8D was modeled after the Horner model Kruspe. The Schmidt features a piston F/Bb change valve, rather than a rotary valve. Many people, especially with smaller hands, have found this awkward. Several Schmidt owners have had a metal lever extension made to replace the piston button in order to minimize the stretch. Conn, however, at one time did make a Schmidt copy double horn. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Did you notice that the older Schmidt had the same bore (tuning slide) as have the Viennese horns: 10.8 mms ? I tried one superb Schmidt in Japan 1995 & tried to fit the tuning slide from my Viennese Horn. It fits perfectly. Quite interesting regarding tone quality. Greetings Hans -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Sanner Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:28 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History "Schmidt made great horns. Unfortunately, they weren't designed to fit the human hand"--Samuel Ramsay. Although Sam built a little "platform" over the change valve that made his Schmidt as comfortable to play as any horn. If anybody knows what happened to Sam's Schmidt, please contact me. I know it wasn't among the horns sold after his death. The New Langwill Index, by William Waterhouse, gives quite a bit of information about Schmidt. I suspect the earlier Index of Musical Wind-Instrument Makers, by Lindesay G. Langwill has similar data. I don't have a copy handy to look it up for you. IMHO, the Weimar refers to the city where Liszt taught. "vor Berlin" means "earlier Berlin," i.e., his shop was in Berlin before he moved to Weimar. With one glaring exception, all the Schmidts I've ever played have been fantastic horns. Lawson FB115.125 pipes will generally clean up any intonation problems, as long as the valves are tight. HTH. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
The Conn 8D was modeled after the Horner model Kruspe. The Schmidt features a piston F/Bb change valve, rather than a rotary valve. Many people, especially with smaller hands, have found this awkward. Several Schmidt owners have had a metal lever extension made to replace the piston button in order to minimize the stretch. Conn, however, at one time did make a Schmidt copy double horn. Richard in Seattle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: was the conn 8d modeled after the Schmidt? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
was the conn 8d modeled after the Schmidt? In a message dated 1/29/2008 1:30:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Schmidt made great horns. Unfortunately, they weren't designed to fit the human hand"--Samuel Ramsay. Although Sam built a little "platform" over the change valve that made his Schmidt as comfortable to play as any horn. If anybody knows what happened to Sam's Schmidt, please contact me. I know it wasn't among the horns sold after his death. The New Langwill Index, by William Waterhouse, gives quite a bit of information about Schmidt. I suspect the earlier Index of Musical Wind-Instrument Makers, by Lindesay G. Langwill has similar data. I don't have a copy handy to look it up for you. IMHO, the Weimar refers to the city where Liszt taught. "vor Berlin" means "earlier Berlin," i.e., his shop was in Berlin before he moved to Weimar. With one glaring exception, all the Schmidts I've ever played have been fantastic horns. Lawson FB115.125 pipes will generally clean up any intonation problems, as long as the valves are tight. HTH. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/marksueron%40aol.com **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
"Schmidt made great horns. Unfortunately, they weren't designed to fit the human hand"--Samuel Ramsay. Although Sam built a little "platform" over the change valve that made his Schmidt as comfortable to play as any horn. If anybody knows what happened to Sam's Schmidt, please contact me. I know it wasn't among the horns sold after his death. The New Langwill Index, by William Waterhouse, gives quite a bit of information about Schmidt. I suspect the earlier Index of Musical Wind-Instrument Makers, by Lindesay G. Langwill has similar data. I don't have a copy handy to look it up for you. IMHO, the Weimar refers to the city where Liszt taught. "vor Berlin" means "earlier Berlin," i.e., his shop was in Berlin before he moved to Weimar. With one glaring exception, all the Schmidts I've ever played have been fantastic horns. Lawson FB115.125 pipes will generally clean up any intonation problems, as long as the valves are tight. HTH. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
