RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
You brought some very valuable arguments. Yes, posture is very important, as one has to avoid any CRAMPING which results in terrible fatigue. But another thing: why all this complain about missing endurance ? If you play very, very demanding things (many hours opera, very long symphony), you are worn, no matter how you are prepared. You will be tired not only in the embouchure but as the whole person. That is normal. But one has to learn & experience how to master this fatigue so playing again is possible the next day or after the intermission. There are situations, when you think, "I will not make it through", but you do it, you will go through the difficulties, bruised a bit perhaps, but you make it. Complaining does not help. Thousand years of excess practise will not help. Go through. It might hurt, yes, off course, it does, but you have to watch the light at the end of the tunnel & go thee to the exit. That´s it. "What´s not killing you, makes you harder !" And remember, "there is no mom in the concert, where you can go & hide behind". Real life is that like. -But practise is good allways. Had a discussion with my young colleague, who took over my job as the leader of the section last summer. We both wondered about an extern colleague playing the 2nd act of Goetterdaemmerung. We never heard anybody warming up this crazy just by making a lot of noise, like a racing car engine, b-b-brr-brr etc. - ands how long. Johannes Dengler, my successor, has a special beautiful tone as has Christian Lampert, but he said also, "I do warm up as you did, just a few notes & two scales perhaps to check if the embouchure is in order. If not so good, well do a few things more." -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of WIlliam Botte Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:02 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance Nobody has commented on posture yet. Are you stiff and tense, laidback and casual, or carefully poised and attentive. Many times the hornists outward appearance reflects their inward attitude. Hans has addressed attitude. An incorrect atitude can have a detrimental affect on your posture, deminishing your endurance. --wabotte ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance a problem?
I agree with Bill but it's worth noting that there are exceptions to every rule. It's funny, but if you think about it, when a 100 people start playing the horn 4 hours a day and push through to play when they can play no more, probably only one of them will emerge to continue to play the horn at all, but that one will probably play the horn very well. As they often say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but what kills you is different for everyone, hence the need to take stock of your own training and the results it produces, and the need to adjust that training when necessary. Playing past the proverbial point when you can play no more is certainly a character builder, but not more than that for most people, and it can indeed be detrimental to young musicians in both physical and psychological ways. -S- > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > du] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:00 PM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance a problem? > > The athletic comparison is entirely appropriate. The > physiological development required for horn playing is best > accomplished through an intelligent, methodical approach. > Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence. If you > are successful, an analysis of your personal routine will > undoubtedly reveal elements of a methodical approach. If you > accept and understand the concept, chances are you can make > small changes that will reap big benefits. If your approach > to the physical aspects of playing are as sophisticated as a > ditch digger, you probably won't last very long, like a ditch > digger. You'll burn out at an early age. > > -Original Message- > From: simon locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:41:39 - > Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance a problem? > > Hello All > > I feel the problem with the athletic comparison is that as a > professional horn player, I have no choice of what is on the > programme. Sometimes, there is a whole string of days of very > heavy work. Whereas an athlete can concentrate on building up > to a peak as they know when they will be required to perform. > In my humble opinion horn playing is more than just having > the physical ability to continue playing, it is a creative > art form. I was taught from a very young age that if one > observed the basics, long notes, lip flexibilities, scales, > arpeggios etc. allied with real breath control, then > endurance need never be a problem. I like most of my peers > play regularly 8-10 hrs a day in ensembles and still do my > routine. I have never thought of not playing my practice in > order to save myself for a concert. Maybe, I am lucky to have > a good embouchure but personally I feel it is the consistent > hard work which allows me not to have to worry about stamina. > It could also be that I grew up when it was considered that > gruelling practice was the way to prosper both musically and > financially. Alan Civil once told me that you learn more > about yourself and your playing abilities when you feel you > cannot play another note and still go on. > > Kind Regards > > Simon Locke > > -- > > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. > It has removed 6 spam emails to date. > Paying users do not have this message in their emails. > Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays > computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance a problem?
The athletic comparison is entirely appropriate. The physiological development required for horn playing is best accomplished through an intelligent, methodical approach. Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence. If you are successful, an analysis of your personal routine will undoubtedly reveal elements of a methodical approach. If you accept and understand the concept, chances are you can make small changes that will reap big benefits. If your approach to the physical aspects of playing are as sophisticated as a ditch digger, you probably won't last very long, like a ditch digger. You'll burn out at an early age. -Original Message- From: simon locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:41:39 - Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance a problem? Hello All I feel the problem with the athletic comparison is that as a professional horn player, I have no choice of what is on the programme. Sometimes, there is a whole string of days of very heavy work. Whereas an athlete can concentrate on building up to a peak as they know when they will be required to perform. In my humble opinion horn playing is more than just having the physical ability to continue playing, it is a creative art form. I was taught from a very young age that if one observed the basics, long notes, lip flexibilities, scales, arpeggios etc. allied with real breath control, then endurance need never be a problem. I like most of my peers play regularly 8-10 hrs a day in ensembles and still do my routine. I have never thought of not playing my practice in order to save myself for a concert. Maybe, I am lucky to have a good embouchure but personally I feel it is the consistent hard work which allows me not to have to worry about stamina. It could also be that I grew up when it was considered that gruelling practice was the way to prosper both musically and financially. Alan Civil once told me that you learn more about yourself and your playing abilities when you feel you cannot play another note and still go on. Kind Regards Simon Locke -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 6 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
My rowing coach in college quickly built our team to world class with an interesting approach to workouts that can easily be applied to horn playing. His philosophy was that a good workout should last no longer than an hour. Any longer, and you're wasting time. His winter training regime typically included an eight mile run and daily alternation between weight training and ergometer training. Exercises were timed and recorded, so you knew ahead when you'd finish. Every runner carried a watch, and times were posted publicly, as were lifting weights and ergometer results. He developed this method when some of his rowers complained the East Germans were unbeatable because the government left them no responsibility except training. Of course, once he got the hour schedule established, he announced a doubling up by adding a second workout in the morning. Of course, this hour is devoted to personal playing development, but you'll be amazed at the stamina, power, and control you have available for rehearsals. I'm sure Hans would have some good ideas for material to choose, but the idea is to plan ahead what you plan to do. For instance, the Schumann Adagio and Allegro is a good closer. Gear the rest of the hour so you have enough gas to run it in style as the last few minutes. Keep a notebook of timings, and some way that allows you to equate different pieces so you can vary your workout but keep track of your physical improvements. I record mine on a sixty minute mini disk. As an engineer, I use Excel fo everything, so I construct workouts using a spreadsheet, stack the music I need, turn on the recorder and go. -Original Message- From: Martin Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List Sent: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:54:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance Hi Mark, Yes, that is what I suggest. An orchestra rehearsal is, in general, three hours long. Ideally, you want to build your endurance to a point where you can not only last the full three hours, but have some reserve to spare. There's nothing like having the confidence that comes with knowing that you have the stamina needed to maintain your playing at it's highest level for the entire rehearsal and then some. As Prof. Pizka pointed out in a recent post, if you are going to be playing some of the longer Wagner opera's such as Die Meistersinger, etc., or Strauss tone poems, and you can't play longer than two and a half hours, you will find yourself "in trouble" and struggling to make it. And believe me-- you don't want to find yourself in those circumstances. That's when the bad habits creep in-- like pulling too much with the left hand on the pinkie hook/flipper, pinching and choking. As draconian as it might sound, four hours plus per day is not impossible. Think of the analogy of the long distance runner. The endurance needed to run a marathon (and horn playing is very much an athletic pursuit!) is not gained overnight. One must follow a training plan, which gradually builds up the runner's time to a point where they can last for the whole race. Same goes for horn playing. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not something that you go out and do all of a sudden; you MUST approach the problem intelligently, pace yourself, and build up your endurance over time-- weeks, sometimes months. Barring any problems with the embouchure, it will come with time. In Philip Farkas' book, "The Art of Horn Playing" he discusses practising; if I remember correctly, he advocated at least three hours per day. Add rehearsals, band, chamber music, or whatever, and you can see that you need to have chops capable of lasting at least that long or longer. One other thing: if you think 30-35 hrs. per week is a bit much, rest assured that there are players out there who are already doing it. I quote from the first-rate book "Horn Technique" written by Gunther Schuller: "While on the subject of practising, I should like to utter a word of warning to those who propose to take the horn seriously and to make it a career. If you wish to achieve a position prominent enough to assure you the kind of livelihood you think you deserve, [following in italics] there must be some time in your student years during which you put in the six to twelve months of brutal hard work without which an enduring successful career is not possible. [end italics] This 'basic training' period is necessary not only in order to refine your playing to the highest professional level, but to build up the easily underestimated amount of resistance, both physical and mental, that the nervous tension of everyday professional playing demands. Any short cuts in this respect will sooner or later lead to trouble." (Horn Technique: Schuller, Gunther; Oxford University Press, 1976. pp.73) Sincerely, Martin Bender
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Hello Martin, hello Mark, Who of both of you has ever played a Wagnerian opera on first chair ? Comparing the first horn part of such a big task with third (?) or the other horn parts, an average first horn player (in a good orchestra - means a good player) would take it over "with one cheek of his ass" easily & comfortly, as we say. But, and there would be "but" manytimes, this tasks are to be differentiated. As exhausting the Straussian tone poems are, nothing is compareable with e.g. Flying Dutchman Ouverture, whereafter even the strongest players are worn. But the long lasting operas as Tristan or Goetterdaemmerung have very strong demanding parts while there are also many rests on other places. And these operas are divided between two players - not an assistant & the solo, but one playing act 1 & 3, the other playing act 2, but both playing the calls in the respective other acts. Tristan is divided after act 1 and the player join the stage group for act 2. Long operas do not mean permanent playing for 4 - 5 hours. There are many rests. But they are very demanding on other places and often accumulating the demand on strength. The most demanding is the request to be full alert for a long distance and to sit in a tight pit all the time except the two intermissions. The impact on the body is quite something. Also, the acoustical impact. I know this from my long exposure to these tasks, having played Meistersinger, Goetterdaemmerung, Siegfried WITHOUT an alternating other principal on many (well paid) occasions on other places than Munich. We play Walkuere (5 hours +) without another alternating player set. How to master these tasks ? Building up strength ? Like in sports ? No, perhaps partly. But one must use his or her intelligence, listen to the other voices in the orchestra, using one´s good taste, acting unselfish most of the time. Thinking, one´s part were the most important part of the orchestra - as most younger player think nowadays - is wrong absolutely. Listen which voice might be the prominent one in the chord, listen who has the melody, etc. Think about, that you act as accompaniment most of the time. Do not hold all ff & fff at full. Show it & reduce the dynamics except on very special spots, but even there. Do not BLOW through the horn as much as you can. Do not engage in a fortissimo competition. If your part is the leading voice, let it be felt, not just by loudness, but by the character of your voice. Convince the other players by the (emotional) intensity (!!! Colours of the sound !!!) of your expression. Intelligent playing means strength. But the embouchure must be built up properly in a years long process. Intelligent practising for 2 - 3 hours is much better than wasting 5 - 6 hours of your life without gaining anything by wrong & just mechanical practising. Do not practise things you can do perfectly, just to impress your neighbours. Practise things which need improvement. So you will build up strength & confindence into yourself. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Bender Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:54 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance Hi Mark, Yes, that is what I suggest. An orchestra rehearsal is, in general, three hours long. Ideally, you want to build your endurance to a point where you can not only last the full three hours, but have some reserve to spare. There's nothing like having the confidence that comes with knowing that you have the stamina needed to maintain your playing at it's highest level for the entire rehearsal and then some. As Prof. Pizka pointed out in a recent post, if you are going to be playing some of the longer Wagner opera's such as Die Meistersinger, etc., or Strauss tone poems, and you can't play longer than two and a half hours, you will find yourself "in trouble" and struggling to make it. And believe me-- you don't want to find yourself in those circumstances. That's when the bad habits creep in-- like pulling too much with the left hand on the pinkie hook/flipper, pinching and choking. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Hi Mark, Yes, that is what I suggest. An orchestra rehearsal is, in general, three hours long. Ideally, you want to build your endurance to a point where you can not only last the full three hours, but have some reserve to spare. There's nothing like having the confidence that comes with knowing that you have the stamina needed to maintain your playing at it's highest level for the entire rehearsal and then some. As Prof. Pizka pointed out in a recent post, if you are going to be playing some of the longer Wagner opera's such as Die Meistersinger, etc., or Strauss tone poems, and you can't play longer than two and a half hours, you will find yourself "in trouble" and struggling to make it. And believe me-- you don't want to find yourself in those circumstances. That's when the bad habits creep in-- like pulling too much with the left hand on the pinkie hook/flipper, pinching and choking. As draconian as it might sound, four hours plus per day is not impossible. Think of the analogy of the long distance runner. The endurance needed to run a marathon (and horn playing is very much an athletic pursuit!) is not gained overnight. One must follow a training plan, which gradually builds up the runner's time to a point where they can last for the whole race. Same goes for horn playing. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not something that you go out and do all of a sudden; you MUST approach the problem intelligently, pace yourself, and build up your endurance over time-- weeks, sometimes months. Barring any problems with the embouchure, it will come with time. In Philip Farkas' book, "The Art of Horn Playing" he discusses practising; if I remember correctly, he advocated at least three hours per day. Add rehearsals, band, chamber music, or whatever, and you can see that you need to have chops capable of lasting at least that long or longer. One other thing: if you think 30-35 hrs. per week is a bit much, rest assured that there are players out there who are already doing it. I quote from the first-rate book "Horn Technique" written by Gunther Schuller: "While on the subject of practising, I should like to utter a word of warning to those who propose to take the horn seriously and to make it a career. If you wish to achieve a position prominent enough to assure you the kind of livelihood you think you deserve, [following in italics] there must be some time in your student years during which you put in the six to twelve months of brutal hard work without which an enduring successful career is not possible. [end italics] This 'basic training' period is necessary not only in order to refine your playing to the highest professional level, but to build up the easily underestimated amount of resistance, both physical and mental, that the nervous tension of everyday professional playing demands. Any short cuts in this respect will sooner or later lead to trouble." (Horn Technique: Schuller, Gunther; Oxford University Press, 1976. pp.73) Sincerely, Martin Bender On 23-Mar-06, at 3:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you really recommending 30-35 hours per week or over 4 hours per day? That seems a bit much. In a message dated 3/23/06 2:53:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Tyler It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
hpiece changes to allow you to do things you don't, or can't, do naturally. Done with that understanding, the changes you select will be exactly the opposite. Plan on about a month for the new tone to develop. We have all fallen victim to playing a new mouthpiece and feeling an immediate improvement, often buying one for ourselves. Finding the perfect mouthpiece is easy-I've done it lots of times. Based on what I've just tried to explain you can see the reason for this, and why the honeymoon is so short. About the same month. -Original Message- From: Hans.Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'The Horn List' Sent: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:31:45 +0100 Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Endurance Endurance comes by the time, like in sports. In the case of horn playing, it is not muscle strength like in sports, but being resistant against the mouthpiece pressure against the lips - or better said, getting used. If you need too much muscle strength to get up to the higher notes, something is wrong with the embouchure. Practicing in the high register hours & hours - in a silly manner - will build up NOTHING. Get your high notes from practising in the LOW register & benefit double, for the highh & a consistency in the low register. The worst thing is it, to grip to the stars when not prepared (same in politics !). Why practising Mozart no.4 in the 2nd year, when the embouchure is not prepared to it. And, what is so taxiing in Mozart no.4 ? The first movement until the recapitulation ? You are joking ? Or the second page ? My dear young fellow, howq will you get through Meistersinger Ouverture or Flying Dutchman Ouverture with really fff and upper middle range & sudden pp, etc. No way, my dear, no way. Go back & practise some nice etudes & some nice 5 min. solo pieces & leave the Mozart no.4 first mov. For a while until your embouchure is grown stronger. As you are not prepared - perhaps fooling around too much while practising - Mozart is too early. Try meanwhile to prepare 2nd & 3rd mov. Instead & make it perfect. Itr seems, that a lot of the young fellows complaining about endurance, do abuse their unprepared or not enough prepared embouchure by forcing things & forcing again instead of climbing up smoothly & slowly. Hornplaying is not a thing of "buy & run", it is a longer process step by step. Be patient. Prepare easier things better. As soon as you can do them perfectly, go to the next step. But do not stick to a piece longer than a week, - well, besides your etudes work & chamber music & ensemble playing. For the Mozart instructions see my special page at www.pizka.de/Sitemap.htm And scroll to the instructions. Also, see the study plan from Vienna, experienced by Roland Berger & myself & many other successful players www.pizka.de/Vienna.htm ======== === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Bender Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:53 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance Hi Tyler, It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and more! Also, try not to play past the point of control; this will only lead to bad habits. Think "quality" as well as "quantity." Best regards, Martin Bender On 22-Mar-06, at 11:35 PM, Tyler Holt wrote: Dear List, I am hoping you more experienced players out there can give me some advice and perhaps some perspective. Two years ago I came back from a two year hiatus away from the horn, and it has been a very hard road to travel back to proficiency. I am currently in my second semester of university and am having a difficult time building any endurance (esp high range endurance). Specifically getting through the first movement of Mozart 4. For the last year I have been very consistent about practicing 3
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Steve, you gave a very wise advise, but do they believe ? No. They dont believe you & they dont believe me, even we both have a long time experience in our fields. These young folks ask questions often just to confirm their own believe. They believe you only "if you tout the same horn". It is incredible silly, what they do. If you give them an advice to change a habit, they respond as if you have insulted them severely. If you tell them that things have to be acquired step by step without leaving out a single step, it is hopeless, to expect they would accept your or my advice. If you tell them, that their fatigue might come from over exposing the still weak & improper prepared embouchure to much too demanding & premature tasks, they respond in a rude & selfish manner agains as if insulted, as they know things much better than we old asses. It has become a wide epidemic within the younger generation, to know everything much better than we, but they fail more often than we did. You can listen the results during auditions of all kind. But there are some gems left. These gems listen or read most carefully what we have to tell them from our own experience handling the same problems. They implement these thoughts & use them for their own improvement & advancement. And these young people are not shy. They say their opinion frankly & we apprecciate it. But they benefit from our experience without questioning our advice over & over out from their principles or from their bad behaviour. But even that cannot hinder you & me, to preach, to keep on preaching, because a few will listen & benefit. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:49 PM To: 'The Horn List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Endurance Tyler Holt wrote: -snip- > And things seem to be deteriorating instead of improving as of late. Tyler, taking a cue from athletics might be a good idea for you here. Most competitive athletes "cycle" their training. This doesn't have anything to do with bicycling :) but rather refers to the fact that one simply cannot improve linearly forever. If more practice always meant improvement, we'd all be world-class players (and every weight lifter would be hoisting tons instead of pounds). When things get worse instead of better, it's a classic sign of the need for a rest. It could be, as others have already suggested, an injury, but it may simply be too much practice for what your various body parts are able to manage at this point in time. I suggest you take a week (or at least a few days) completely off from playing. You will likely find you feel pretty horrible the first time you pick up the horn afterwards but your skill will, if you're not injured, returning quickly. If you want to build up your endurance, then follow some of the rules athletes follow - save a maximum effort for a performance, and keep your efforts to "working hard but not all out" when you practice. And whenever you feel like you're getting worse instead of better, take a few days rest and ramp back up again afterwards to, we hope, even greater heights. There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Consistent Winning" that talks about all these things; unfortunately, it's out of print but it's still available used and I recommend it very highly. I hope that is of some help to you. Steve "amateur power lifter and amateur horn player" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Are you really recommending 30-35 hours per week or over 4 hours per day? That seems a bit much. In a message dated 3/23/06 2:53:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Tyler It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Tyler Holt wrote: -snip- > And things seem to be deteriorating instead of improving > as of late. Tyler, taking a cue from athletics might be a good idea for you here. Most competitive athletes "cycle" their training. This doesn't have anything to do with bicycling :) but rather refers to the fact that one simply cannot improve linearly forever. If more practice always meant improvement, we'd all be world-class players (and every weight lifter would be hoisting tons instead of pounds). When things get worse instead of better, it's a classic sign of the need for a rest. It could be, as others have already suggested, an injury, but it may simply be too much practice for what your various body parts are able to manage at this point in time. I suggest you take a week (or at least a few days) completely off from playing. You will likely find you feel pretty horrible the first time you pick up the horn afterwards but your skill will, if you're not injured, returning quickly. If you want to build up your endurance, then follow some of the rules athletes follow - save a maximum effort for a performance, and keep your efforts to "working hard but not all out" when you practice. And whenever you feel like you're getting worse instead of better, take a few days rest and ramp back up again afterwards to, we hope, even greater heights. There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Consistent Winning" that talks about all these things; unfortunately, it's out of print but it's still available used and I recommend it very highly. I hope that is of some help to you. Steve "amateur power lifter and amateur horn player" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Endurance comes by the time, like in sports. In the case of horn playing, it is not muscle strength like in sports, but being resistant against the mouthpiece pressure against the lips - or better said, getting used. If you need too much muscle strength to get up to the higher notes, something is wrong with the embouchure. Practising in the high register hours & hours - in a silly manner - will build up NOTHING. Get your high notes from practising in the LOW register & benefit double, for the highh & a consistency in the low register. The worst thing is it, to grip to the stars when not prepared (same in politics !). Why practising Mozart no.4 in the 2nd year, when the embouchure is not prepared to it. And, what is so taxiing in Mozart no.4 ? The first movement until the recapitulation ? You are joking ? Or the second page ? My dear young fellow, howq will you get through Meistersinger Ouverture or Flying Dutchman Ouverture with really fff and upper middle range & sudden pp, etc. No way, my dear, no way. Go back & practise some nice etudes & some nice 5 min. solo pieces & leave the Mozart no.4 first mov. For a while until your embouchure is grown stronger. As you are not prepared - perhaps fooling around too much while practising - Mozart is too early. Try meanwhile to prepare 2nd & 3rd mov. Instead & make it perfect. Itr seems, that a lot of the young fellows complaining about endurance, do abuse their unprepared or not enough prepared embouchure by forcing things & forcing again instead of climbing up smoothly & slowly. Hornplaying is not a thing of "buy & run", it is a longer process step by step. Be patient. Prepare easier things better. As soon as you can do them perfectly, go to the next step. But do not stick to a piece longer than a week, - well, besides your etudes work & chamber music & ensemble playing. For the Mozart instructions see my special page at www.pizka.de/Sitemap.htm And scroll to the instructions. Also, see the study plan from Vienna, experienced by Roland Berger & myself & many other successful players www.pizka.de/Vienna.htm === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Bender Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:53 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance Hi Tyler, It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and more! Also, try not to play past the point of control; this will only lead to bad habits. Think "quality" as well as "quantity." Best regards, Martin Bender On 22-Mar-06, at 11:35 PM, Tyler Holt wrote: > Dear List, > > I am hoping you more experienced players out there can give me > some advice and perhaps some perspective. Two years ago I came back > from a two year hiatus away from the horn, and it has been a very hard > road to travel back to proficiency. I am currently in my second > semester of university and am having a difficult time building any > endurance (esp high range endurance). Specifically getting through > the first movement of Mozart 4. > For the last year I have been very consistent about practicing 3 > hrs/day. I warm up, break up my sessions throughout the day, etc. > >For the last few months I've been really working at the 1st > movement of the Mozart and feel it's near perfectexcept I can't > manage to make it through all the way. And things seem to be > deteriorating instead of improving as of late. > >Any thoughts on practicing/endurance/years required to build a > solid face would be appreciated. > >Thanks. > > Tyler Holt > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options a
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Hi Tyler, It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and more! Also, try not to play past the point of control; this will only lead to bad habits. Think "quality" as well as "quantity." Best regards, Martin Bender On 22-Mar-06, at 11:35 PM, Tyler Holt wrote: Dear List, I am hoping you more experienced players out there can give me some advice and perhaps some perspective. Two years ago I came back from a two year hiatus away from the horn, and it has been a very hard road to travel back to proficiency. I am currently in my second semester of university and am having a difficult time building any endurance (esp high range endurance). Specifically getting through the first movement of Mozart 4. For the last year I have been very consistent about practicing 3 hrs/day. I warm up, break up my sessions throughout the day, etc. For the last few months I've been really working at the 1st movement of the Mozart and feel it's near perfectexcept I can't manage to make it through all the way. And things seem to be deteriorating instead of improving as of late. Any thoughts on practicing/endurance/years required to build a solid face would be appreciated. Thanks. Tyler Holt ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
hello- I too have had a lot of trouble with endurance for all of the time that I've played Horn seriously, so I guess I should talk like an expert on this subject. But I have, however, recently (since this fall) been able to improve my endurance and high range significantly, and I do believe that if I continue to work on what I have I will continue to improve. I hope sharing what has helped me can help some of you too. My improvement has come from one thing: AIR. My teacher in high school was all concerned about embouchure. Everything was about embouchure, having the perfect set, placement, tight corners ..go read farkas . I think that all of this is very critical; but I have since learned that in the end, we play the horn with air, not with almost microscopic muscles around our mouth. Think about it, the horn is, what, around fifteen feet long or so? It has the largest bell and the smallest mouthpiece of all the brass (except tuba I guess) and is pointed backward. Certainly the diaphragm and all the anatomy involved with good breathing are stronger than little muscles. Humans, anatomically at least, are not designed to play the Horn. We do however, have a lot of lungs and diaphragm. Use that! I would venture to say that most people's endurance problems, given a basically proper embouchure, a good warmup, and decent practice habits, are due to bad air use. Start with a really deep breath -dont ever play a single note without taking a good full breath, your lungs wont get tired!- and then think of blowing each note all the way down the lead pipe, or imagine playing and Alphorn, where you have to blow all the way to the end of the horn. Just picturing this when I play helps me tremendously to use what is more efficient in the body. I also would venture to say that, in some ways, endurance is learned as much as it is built. There are many parallels between Horn playing and body building or athletic training; but the muscles involved are very different than those used in most aerobic or anaerobic exercise. I believe, at least for myself, that "building" endurance comes as much from learning air support, learning how to pace yourself (practice habits and warm-ups), and learning how to form and hold a proper, efficient embouchure, as it does from simple muscle development. Does this sound crazy??? Now that said, I myself have always had a hard time knowing how much to play everyday. (I am asking everyone here) Should one play until fatigue sets in every day, or every other day, or never??? When is one fatigued, when the high B-flat wont come out clear or when all you get is mush and leaking out the corners playing middle C? I have done a lot of work, under close supervision from my professor and peers, from Joe Singer's and Carmine Caruso's routines, and found them immensely beneficial. But, from previous experience, I worry about hurting myself with such work. I also find that if I do much of that "heavy-duty" stuff, I am shot for the rest of the day. Is 2-3 hours of rehearsals, practice, learning music and technique as useful as 20-30min of that kind of work ? I dunno. I hope something Ive said is helpful, but I may be completely wrong, I am no pro, just a freshman. Good luck, Dave M. Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Tyler Holt wrote:
For the last few months I've been really working at the 1st movement of
the Mozart and feel it's near perfectexcept I can't manage to make it
through all the way. And things seem to be deteriorating instead of
improving as of late.
RED ALERT! Very likely a damaged lip here, and more practice will make
it worse. You might have a bad habit or two, or you might just have had
an unfortunate chance event. Probably best to lay off a while. How
long to lay off, how to analyze, fix and prevent another attack? Don't
know. Been there, but that doesn't make me an expert. But I do know
what "things seem to be deteriorating" means.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
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Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Practice, practice, practice. Range comes from endurance. Endurance does not come from range. -- Alan [ -- "Chops Of Steel" -- ] Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~ I am currently in my second semester of university and am having a difficult time building any endurance (esp high range endurance). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/287 - Release Date: 3/21/2006 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Do not play everything, every repetition during the rehearsal, with full power, means: reduce the sound output during the rehearsal. Showing the energy once during the rehearsal, is enough. And even then, adjust the dynamic to the piece & the hall & the size of the orchestra. Remember: it is not important THAT YOU BE HEARD, it is important, that the piece sounds right the way, the composer wanted to hear it. They never intended to hear something crude. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 2:03 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance Dear list, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on exercises to improve endurance. I am nowhere near where Farkas says we should be in his book. A three hour rehearsal and then the concert? I cant even make it through the three hour rehearsal, let alone that and the concert. I am still a high school student, so this hasn't been a real problem for me so far, but I would very much like to avoid the problem now than overcome it in college. Thank you, Nicholas Hartman __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Again, endurance has been researched and tested to death in athletics. The best way is to simply play a lot without getting too close to your limits. Paraphrasing the weight lifting version, one might say the goal is to play as often as possible, as well as possible, while staying as fresh as possible. Since you can't yet play a lot in one stretch, the way to get there is to play lots of shorter stretches with a complete recovery between. Do this as either a long practice session with frequent breaks of a least a few minutes in length, or shorter sessions but several times per day. Either way, stay away from exhaustion and failure - if you know you fall apart after 30 minutes, then play for 20-25 minutes at a time. -S- > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > du] On Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:03 PM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance > > Dear list, > I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on > exercises to improve endurance. I am nowhere near where > Farkas says we should be in his book. A three hour rehearsal > and then the concert? I cant even make it through the three > hour rehearsal, let alone that and the concert. I am still a > high school student, so this hasn't been a real problem for > me so far, but I would very much like to avoid the problem > now than overcome it in college. > > Thank you, >Nicholas Hartman > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around http://mail.yahoo.com > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridaysc > omputer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
More air. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on exercises to improve endurance. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.14 - Release Date: 5/20/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
In which opera house ? == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 7:32 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Endurance Having played in Boston during the sixties, I heard lots of stories about Stagliano (mostly from denizens of the The Lobster Claw). I don't know about playing the long call standing on his head, but he is reputed to have played it many times under conditions most people find they are unable to stand on their feet. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] endurance (for young & old horn players)
Prof. Pizka I appreciate your advice as usual and have started to play much more on the F side and find it much less taxing for me. I continue to try and make as much music as I can within my limitations. As we grow older we need to modify our aspirations somewhat but we still can enjoy doing our part in this wonderful experience of music making. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: [Hornlist] endurance (for young & old horn players) There is also another way to improve or keep endurance or to master taxiing concerts or rehearsals. Use the F-side as often as possible to take advantage of the higher overtone output & thus saving a lot of energy & lip power. Believe me, it works. Playing everything on the Bb-side consumes a lot of energy just to enrich the sound because the lack of more than 50% of the overtones has to be compensated by more air support. You can save this 50% excess energy, so to stretch the endurance span. Prof.Hans Pizka, Pf.1136 D-85541 Kirchheim - Germany Fax: 49 89 903-9414 Phone: 903-9548 home: www.pizka.de email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paulnholt%40optonline.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Back when I was in high school, I once met an ex-wife of Stagliano's who at the time was married to the uncle of a friend of mine. Upon learning I was a horn player, she told me that Stagliano was always lousy drunk, but when he sat down with his horn he made the most amazing music no matter how much he had consumed... Fred [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having played in Boston during the sixties, I heard lots of stories about Stagliano (mostly from denizens of the The Lobster Claw). I don't know about playing the long call standing on his head, but he is reputed to have played it many times under conditions most people find they are unable to stand on their feet. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Ah shoot. Oh for the days of fixed width fonts by default. Ok, so the pattern is C D E (t)F (t)G (t)F E C D D E (t)F (t)G (t)F E D C D E (t)F (t)G (t)F E D C D E (t)F (t)G (t)F E D C D E (t)F (t)G (t)F E D C G C Remember, start this on "C" horn, sounding 2nd line G using 1-3 and continue up in chromatic intervals. Sean Steven Slaff wrote: Sean, Your exercise looks quite interesting and valuable, however i'm not really quite able to read your notation properly -- perhaps it's my email program, but many notes are listed in strange order, some are one on top of the other! Could you perhaps spell out the written notes? Does the first exersize go (as written) C D E F G E F C D? That is the way it almost appears. You can reply to me or to the entire hornlist -- I'm sure that many people will find it interesting if their browser couldn't properly display your first post. Regards, Steven Slaff - Original Message - From: Sean Kirkpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:11 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance Does anyone have any ideas about building endurance and keeping the lips from becoming stiff. I'm an older horn player that's having problems in these areas. Colder weather seems to increase the stiffness problem. The discussion on endurance brought mind an exercise that I learned from a friend many years ago while he was a student at the USC horn studio. He learned it from Jim Decker, who I believe learned if from James Staliagno (who is reported to have played the Long Call off stage while standing on his head - ever done THAT, Hans? :) Later when I studied with Decker, it became a cornerstone of my quest to change my embouchure, especially to recover my endurance. I promise you that if you follow the instructions, you will reap amazing benefits. This is a multipart exercise that Decker called "weight lifting" and I was told that it should be done near the end of whatever daily practice session that you do. The assumption is that you've done all of the other hard work, you're probably pretty tired, and now is the time to train for endurance. First of all, you're going to get tired if you do this right, and when you're tired, you'll use more pressure to get through the exercise. Not only will this added pressure NOT help you, it will in fact HURT you because you're likely to damage tired muscles. DO NOT DO THIS EXERCISE WITH PRESSURE. You're warned. Begin by sounding the written C as shown on the open F horn. Now play the chromatic scale down a 4th so that you're playing written G with 1-3. This is, for all intents and purposes, playing C horn. (Remember your Oscar Franz natural horn etuden?) You're ready to start the exercise. At mm=160 om the quarter (or whole note = 40), play the entire exercise on the open horn (1-3 valve C horn). Where indicated with "T", push the thumb valve down - the only valve that moves at all in this exercise is the thumb valve. All notes slurred from start to finish. Play each stave in one breath, resting at least 4 counts with the mouthpiece off the face before going on to the next stave. Once you've done all 5 staves, rest for at least 2 full bars at the indicated mm with the mouthpiece off the face. You've done 1 rep and you're ready to do the next on Db horn, valves 2-3. The pattern is the same. Continue on to D horn (1-2), Eb (1), E (2), and finally F horn, where you end up playing the pattern as written. Remember to rest between each stave and between each rep or you'll kill yourself. I want to emphasize that point - play only until you feel your embochure beginning to tighten up, and I assure you that if you're doing this right, you will feel it tighten. That's when you stop, do a warm-down, and put the horn away. If you don't do this, you'll just hurt yourself and defeat the purpose. Don't start this exercise as written, follow the instructions above (eg, C horn, 1-3), and you'll find that in a of weeks, you'll have endurance like you've never had before. TTT <> --<>-<> -- <> <> <>--<>- -- <><> --- -- --- -- --- -- T T T <> --<>-<> -- <> <> <>--<><>--- -- <> -
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Having played in Boston during the sixties, I heard lots of stories about Stagliano (mostly from denizens of the The Lobster Claw). I don't know about playing the long call standing on his head, but he is reputed to have played it many times under conditions most people find they are unable to stand on their feet. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
I know a harder example of playing LONG CALL: Standing on the middle finger of the right hand (no matter how you do it) & play it using the right foot to replace the bell hand. I did Long Call in Bb (a fourth higher) once in a Paris master class, at the beginning, 09:00, having slept just one hour that night due to a long party at Georges Barboteu´s house, together with Edmond Leloir & Daniel Bourgue. But there are a lot of myths around Jim Stagliano. Still I repeat: at age over 60, endurance upbuilding CANNOT work like for a 25 year old, special for those friends who began horn playing in their 50-ies. Muscles do not build up then, no matter how much you work on. It is to late. Tame the ambition & just keep what is there. Enjoy music better WITHOUT the stress climbing up to high c. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean Kirkpatrick Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Endurance The discussion on endurance brought mind an exercise that I learned from a friend many years ago while he was a student at the USC horn studio. He learned it from Jim Decker, who I believe learned if from James Staliagno (who is reported to have played the Long Call off stage while standing on his head - ever done THAT, Hans? :) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
