Re: [HOT] paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa
Which road attribute are you attempting to record? Surface type Width Number of lanes Type of vehicle Access control (toll, etc.) Type of user (farmer, commuter) Type of destination (farm, village, city, woodlot) Owner (state, logging company, village) Seasonality (all weather, 4wd, dry season) Steepness Straightness Other It seems that some of the confusion stems from trying to choose one term to encompass all possible attributes combinations. You might need to apply more than one attribute per road (the list above). Or define common attribute sets to cover typical situations (primary, secondary, etc. Or interstate, regional, local, personal). The difficulty with the latter is getting a common understanding of the attribute set for each umbrella term. Every feature should be tagged as Validated=yes/no. A good data dictionary will clearly distinguish between a Feature Type and that feature's attributes. It is difficult to ad hoc a DD once the project is underway. Good luck! . . . . . Cheers . . . . . Spring Harrison, Canada Samsung Tab 4 On Jul 16, 2015 7:31 AM, Thomas Gertin tger...@gmail.com wrote: Some great input is being provided. Primary / secondary / tertiary highways are not encountered very often in a typical HOT project by the average mapper. Therefore even though they are very important to classify and may be mentioned in the training material, they should not be emphasized. Classifying these highway types is better suited for a ‘meta’ task where a mapper would look at a larger zoomed out area and gain better context for classifying these highway types by analyzing the sizes of the urban areas that are connected by them. In addition, on the ground validation would always be great to have as well. I agree that more validation is greatly needed on HOT projects in general. I think the greatest challenge is how to accomplish this objective; there are simply not enough people doing it. Maybe we can incentivize validation with badges. I think if HOT wants to endorse regional tagging schemes for HOT projects, then West Africa or Africa in general would be a good place to start. Thanks, Tom G On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:32 AM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Validation can mean many things, in a HOT context to me it means going in and correcting the glaring errors. Highway classification or missclassification is subjective as has been stated so I would not include putting the correct tags on Primary / secondary / tertiary as part of the primary role of the validator. I would say changing highway=pedestrian to highway=path in a rural area of West Africa would be part of validation. I work with three others who do validation, there aren't many of us who do it if you look through the projects there are very few that are validated completely and setting the bar to high means fewer people will do it. Personally I think we need more validation whether that should be two passes, one a less experienced validator and one a more careful validation is one open to debate. On one project I did a quick and dirty validation that picked up 80% of the errors and it was suggested that I should have done a more complete validation. It's a judgement call, my feeling was the quality and reliability of the mapping was better after a quick and dirty validation which was not to my normal validation standard than without it. In my opinion OSM mapping with no resource constraints often is done to a high quality standard, in HOT mapping we don't have enough trained and experienced mappers and validators to map to the standard we would like to have the maps mapped to in the time that the clients would like the map. So what can we simplify? Cheerio John On 16 July 2015 at 09:13, Robert Banick rban...@gmail.com wrote: That makes sense. Would you suggest putting road classification into the validation stage then? Or have a classification stage in between? On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:03 AM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: The suggestion is not that Primary / secondary / tertiary should not be mapped, often when the HOT mappers start the major highways are tagged Primary / secondary / tertiary the suggestion is to simplify guidance to new or inexperienced mappers. 76% of HOT Nepal mappers mapped for an hour or two and that was it. I don't think we can afford to give them four hours training in how to classify a road, there would be no time left for mapping. For these sort of highways then map something and let someone else upgrade the tag to Primary / secondary / tertiary is my suggestion. Cheerio John On 16 July 2015 at 08:55, Robert Banick rban...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, Speaking as a humanitarian GISer who's used HOT road layers quite a bit in a few crises, the road classifications really help. Primary / secondary / tertiary are useful, albeit vey incomplete, measures of the importance of roads that we can use to eyeball
Re: [HOT] Database, OSM HOT (Was: Request for information about common set of tags for HOT)
At 22-05-2015 06:39 Friday, Andreas Goss wrote: I see that the open, flexible nature of the tag approach has its merits I suppose. The enduring mystery for me is how is this information used in a query? But maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here, perhaps this concept is only used for labeling features, and querying to select the data subset is not a common task. Hello Andreas, Yes, probably. But where did this key/value come from? In my look at the 366,017 records of a few days ago, I do not recall seeing any tags like this. Are they in fact emergency helipads by another name? Are they related to aeroway = helipad or leisure = common? What are the criteria for selecting them? There appear to be thousands. Oops, now I see that they are not even in Nepal. Does each project have its own set of terminology? Are we certain that some emergency landing sites were not given different tags by different mappers as this flexibility seems to be viewed as beneficial. To me this just demonstrates the chaotic nature of the tagging scheme, little consistency or documentation. However, if it appears to work then it works. Thanks Andreas, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring You mean like this? http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/9wZ __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88â ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot /x-flowed ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice
At 22-05-2015 01:06 Friday, cascafico wrote: Springfield Harrison wrote As a 30+ year helicopter pilot, I did have some concern with the very skimpy helipad instructions. In high-altitude, rugged terrain there is much more to locating helipads than finding a 30 m flat square of ground. Is there any technical oversight by experienced pilots on this task? I assume that there are no current maps for this area, just the OSM edits? I did find some ASM 1950s mapping. Is there nothing newer than that? Hello cascafico, That does sound like an interesting approach. Not sure how well the NIR data would identify suitable landing surfaces but it might be a good start. Some sense of the topography is important, the OSM imagery is not really very good for that. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison One of the first exercises during remote sensing lessons is closely related to your concerns: identify potential landing spots using digital terrain model and near infra-red imagery. It's pretty simple. I wonder why some GIS people didn't automate that, say conditional 10° slope, slope direction, elevation11.000 ft and scrub free land ...maybe no NIR data available? JOSM crowd should be aware of the 30 m DEM TMS available since 20150506 [1] before mapping potential landings... it's very useful, even without vegetation data. [1] http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/30-m-DEM-TMS-rendering-for-Nepal-td5843573.html - -- cascafico.altervista.org twitter.com/cascafico -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/newbie-needs-advice-tp5843387p5845528.html Sent from the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap (HOT) mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Database, OSM HOT (Was: Request for information about common set of tags for HOT)
Hello Blake, Thanks for those references. I understand the first one although it does certainly appear daunting. The problem I see is that the long list of attributes/keys/values that are specified for inclusion in the shapefile can go out of date very often as crowd-mappers or new projects invent new key/value tags. Having to manually inspect the other_tags field looks like a bottleneck that could lead to unintended query results, most likely overlooking items that have new keys. This is a long list to keep up to date and there are quite a few of them in your example: attributes=name,type,aeroway,amenity,admin_level,barrier,boundary,building,craft,geological,historic,land_area,landuse,leisure,man_made,military,natural,office,place,shop,sport,tourism Anyway, I understand what you're driving at but the process seems to be overly complex and not given to reliable automation. Has anyone created a GUI for this? Your example for hand wiring all these INI files looks tedious and easy to screw up. I can see that a query builder tool that presented all the keys and their values in pick lists along with the relevant operators would boost the reliability and ease the workload in creating these queries. Thanks for bearing with me again, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 22-05-2015 06:55 Friday, Blake Girardot wrote: Hi Springfield, Here is how I get useful thematic layers out OSM: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot/How_To_Convert_osm_.pbf_files_to_Esri_Shapefiles And here is an example files generated through what I would guess is a similar process every 30 mins: http://nepal.piensa.co/ Actually, I see they use a slightly different process with the same basic method, and the same software for the conversion/extraction: https://github.com/GFDRR/osm-extract (feedback on my thematic layers is always welcome, we want to create the most useful layers we can. Examples can be found in the wiki entry for Vanuatu typhoon response) cheers, Blake On 5/22/2015 8:26 AM, Springfield Harrison wrote: Hello John, Thanks for your patient explanation, I'm beginning to see that OSM is a very different flavour of GIS. At the outset, my assumption was that it was entirely emergency oriented. I was puzzled by the references to hairdressers and gymnasiums but I guess they result from a different process. I do think that some emergency related features such as potential helipads, powerline crossings, towers, cable cars, landslides, glacial lakes, emergency shelters and such like might be better left to those with experience with those types of features. They wouldn't necessarily need to be experienced with OSM, just familiar with identifying those features. I'm surprised that there is no process for identifying and directing the more highly qualified mappers. I had intended to help with the helipad project but quickly became discouraged with the less than adequate imagery and the weirdness of leisure = common. Merely verifying the leisure = common sites would probably overlook lots of other qualified sites. And how many sites with this tag are actually sports fields as per the original intention? Then, mapping existing helipads marked with H in a circle, might be redundant as such official sites would probably be already mapped by a national agency. I would recommend that potential helipads be tagged as aeroway = helipads_potential, verified = no. Proper assessment of helipads requires an oblique, 3-D view. I attempted to introduce Google Earth into the process but licensing fears put the kibosh on that. I found this surprising because Google Earth does have several other products and does make a lot of noise about community and not for profit mapping without any references to licensing. They appear to actively promote user generated files being placed into the public domain. I have spent some time attempting to talk to them about this but the best I could do was an e-mail. Will advise. Thanks again for your time on this, I'm sure you have larger fish to fry, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Idle thought time drones
Hello Steve, I did check this out, it looks like Linix only for now. Will check further, looks to have great potential. The point cloud technique is quite amazing. The Swiss system can produce very good results, even without ground control points. Thanks again, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 20-05-2015 19:40 Wednesday, Stephen Mather wrote: OpenDroneMap can do point clouds too, and it's free. But, to be completely fair, it has some much needed optimizations that need to be added to make it run faster for larger datasets. Those optimizations are coming soon... . Cheers, Best, Steve On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Jon, That would be good, there is some very good software available that employees point cloud technology for high accuracy 3-D mapping that ranges from $4-$10,000. As always, good planning and matching the product to the job requirements is important. Difficult to do on short notice after the fan blades are soiled. Drones are getting more prolific and cheaper, that's true. Battery life is still a problem and regulations are beginning to proliferate.                 Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 14-05-2015 02:13 Thursday, kusala nine wrote: i was in san francisco at FOSS4G in March and there was a LOT of talk about opendronemap and the tools developed under open source to create good quality georeferenced imagery. thecost of drones has plummeted in the last couple of years and is now available in large quantitities to mainstream users. It strikes me this could make a big difference even in the search and rescue phases with quick turnaround of imagery on the ground straight to TMS servers. The issue will be locating suitable quantities, processing and creating the right targeted jobs to use it effectively - I think the technology is pretty much there. jon ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Database, OSM HOT (Was: Request for information about common set of tags for HOT)
Hello althio, Thanks for your remarks, sorry for the slow reply. Thanks for pointing out the difference between OSM and H OSM team. Wasn't really aware of that. I see that the open, flexible nature of the tag approach has its merits I suppose. The enduring mystery for me is how is this information used in a query? But maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here, perhaps this concept is only used for labeling features, and querying to select the data subset is not a common task. I only suggest changes in the anticipation that they would spawn improvement. If that is not achievable then change for its own sake is not useful. Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 20-05-2015 08:32 Wednesday, althio wrote: Springfield, Sorry for the partial answer and I don't mean to be harsh because I know things around here are not easy to find and understand. We all need pointers and FAQ or homepages and portals... My point is... I do think that you are somehow confused between OpenStreetMap and HOT: *** OSM aka OpenStreetMap, the project, its database, its goals, its community - [http://www.openstreetmap.org/welcome] OpenStreetMap, the free and editable map of the world - [http://www.openstreetmap.org/about] OpenStreetMap is built by a community of mappers that contribute and maintain data about roads, trails, cafés, railway stations, and much more (note: also video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and volleyball...) (note2: also boundaries, hospitals, schools), all over the world. see also OSM Foundation, the entity to support the project - http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page *** HOT aka Humanitarian OSM Team is using a subset of OSM database and building on it, its own goals (some overlap with OSM), its own community (some overlap with OSM) - [http://hotosm.org/] The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team [HOT] applies the principles of open source and open data sharing for humanitarian response and economic development. - [http://hotosm.org/about] - [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team] *** Back to OSM and tag soup database. This is a rather hard and technical topic, and not really related to HOT and this list. You will not find the answer here, nor the most interested or skilled people. HOT uses and contributes to the database, HOT does not control it. A few more words anyway? (I am not a lawyer and I am not a database expert). OSM database is open, free, public, iterative and rather rich. OSM database is not fixed, not complete, not comprehensive, not homogeneous (spatially at least). The philosophy and structure have their own advantages and disadvantages compared to existing datasets. Please appreciate the uniqueness, value and potential of OSM database before you try to make it a clone of something existing. All the best, - althio On 19 May 2015 at 21:38, Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Stefan Blake, I concur with the comments about the tag soup mess. As I have mentioned before, I am new to this OSM environment but have some years experience with GPS and GIS mapping and database design. To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design looked like a glorified scratchpad. I just downloaded and inspected 366,017 OSM database records. There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values. I extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388 records of those. It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard to see with this system. Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a confusing intermingling of features and attributes. Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be impossible to definitively extract a meaningful subset of any of the 366,000 records. Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be described in many different ways that are not consistent. Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of tagging somehow creates a usable end product. It may well be that I am not aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging. However, if it works, it is good. However I do believe that it will work better with a more robust database. Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have never seen such a jumble of terminology. Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design. I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field, since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s. I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative but concerned
Re: [HOT] Database, OSM HOT (Was: Request for information about common set of tags for HOT)
to find and understand. We all need pointers and FAQ or homepages and portals... My point is... I do think that you are somehow confused between OpenStreetMap and HOT: *** OSM aka OpenStreetMap, the project, its database, its goals, its community   - [http ://www.openstreetmap.org/welcome] OpenStreetMap, the free and editable map of the world   - [http ://www.openstreetmap.org/about] OpenStreetMap is built by a community of mappers that contribute and maintain data about roads, trails, cafés, railway stations, and much more (note: also video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and volleyball...) (note2: also boundaries, hospitals, schools), all over the world. see also OSM Foundation, the entity to support the project   - http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page *** HOT aka Humanitarian OSM Team is using a subset of OSM database and building on it, its own goals (some overlap with OSM), its own community (some overlap with OSM)   - [http ://hotosm.org/] The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team [HOT] applies the principles of open source and open data sharing for humanitarian response and economic development.   - [http ://hotosm.org/about]   - [ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team] *** Back to OSM and tag soup database. This is a rather hard and technical topic, and not really related to HOT and this list. You will not find the answer here, nor the most interested or skilled people. HOT uses and contributes to the database, HOT does not control it. A few more words anyway? (I am not a lawyer and I am not a database expert). OSM database is open, free, public, iterative and rather rich. OSM database is not fixed, not complete, not comprehensive, not homogeneous (spatially at least). The philosophy and structure have their own advantages and disadvantages compared to existing datasets. Please appreciate the uniqueness, value and potential of OSM database before you try to make it a clone of something existing. All the best,  - althio On 19 May 2015 at 21:38, Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Stefan Blake, I concur with the comments about the tag soup mess. As I have mentioned before, I am new to this OSM environment but have some years experience with GPS and GIS mapping and database design. To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design looked like a glorified scratchpad. I just downloaded and inspected 366,017 OSM database records. There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values. I extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388 records of those. It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard to see with this system. Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a confusing intermingling of features and attributes. Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be impossible to definitively extract a meaningful subset of any of the 366,000 records. Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be described in many different ways that are not consistent. Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of tagging somehow creates a usable end product. It may well be that I am not aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging. However, if it works, it is good. However I do believe that it will work better with a more robust database. Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have never seen such a jumble of terminology. Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design. I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field, since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s. I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative but concerned that the geographical and database underpinnings may be less than ideal. My observation from creating a few software applications, is that the lesser trained are the users, the much greater investment there needs to be in the user interface and training. GIS and GPS data collection is not particularly intuitive. My approach in projects of this kind is always to start at the far end with the users - what information are they wanting for whatever it is that they do? Then I look at the reporting requirements and finally design the data collection process to feed into that. In the case of this emergency relief operation, I'm hard-pressed to see the value in mapping video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and volleyball. To be fair, many
Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice
Hello Kretzer, Sorry for the slow reply here. Thanks for your comments. However, a database of spatial information is a GIS. To me, this implies some degree of rigour in both the data and geographical elements. But, if it succeeds in spite of these deficiencies then that is good. I'm not sure how effective the crowd can be in identifying potential helipads, it may be more efficient for the experts just to have at it from the beginning. Not knowing what they're looking for, the crowd may well steer the experts away from qualified sites. To avoid this pitfall, the experts pretty well have to scan the whole tile anyway. Thanks again, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 06-05-2015 03:00 Wednesday, Kretzer wrote: Hi Spring, OpenStreetMap is definitely not a military style organisation ... I think it's not even a GIS-project in the stricter sense (rather a open database of spatial information). But I also think it IS a success. Like Wikipedia it is often chaotic, it is very often inconsistent and yet I am often in awe how much such a huge, unorganised crowd of volunteers can achieve - in both cases you get a wealth of information that you won't find from any commercial source. And that information can grow and improve organically, even if it naturally includes a lot of trial and error. It is just a very differnt system. I guess it helps to keep that in mind to inform your expectations. I like Michaels explanation that the crowd can do a lot to prepare the information (like *potential* landing sites, to prepare the groud for the experts). Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. Mai 2015 um 07:41 Uhr Von: Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com An: Denis Carriere carriere.de...@gmail.com, HOT@openstreetmap.org hot@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice Hello Master Cpl. Carriere, OK, glad to hear that. From the list of problems and concerns brought forward on the twitter session earlier, it definitely sounded like accuracy and consistency of the OSM editing might be suspect. Dragging their photos around to force the alignment of different features gives me the willies. What if the next volunteer drags it off in another direction? For me, this is a whole new loose approach to GIS which I have always thought of as highly disciplined and structured. However, if your hardcopy printouts are useful to the field crews, that is good. As a new person looking on from the edges and trying a few edits, the process does look a bit sketchy, but if it works, it works. As a 30+ year helicopter pilot, I did have some concern with the very skimpy helipad instructions. In high-altitude, rugged terrain there is much more to locating helipads than finding a 30 m flat square of ground. Is there any technical oversight by experienced pilots on this task? I assume that there are no current maps for this area, just the OSM edits? I did find some ASM 1950s mapping. Is there nothing newer than that? Thank you, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 05-05-2015 21:20 Tuesday, Denis Carriere wrote: I'm not sure if succesful GIS is a crowd activity. I've asked but heard nothing about the end use of all this activity. Is it serving the folks on the ground? OSM crowd activity is very successful, speaking from the Canadian Forces DART deployed on the ground. I've printed so far 300+ hardcopy maps all made with 100% OSM data for people deployed in remote locations. @OSM Community: Keep up the great work! It's really making a difference! ~~ Denis, MCpl Carriere Canadian Forces GIS Project Manager OP Renaissance Nepal 2015 Twitter: @DenisCarriere OSM: DenisCarriere Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Request for information about common set of tags for HOT (Was: OSM Nepal Reponse - Links to various infos)
Hi Stefan, That would be fine, will take a look. The GIS philosophy here seems to differ from that which I'm used to. Maybe I need to move up the learning curve. Cheers . . . . Spring Harrison At 19-05-2015 15:21 Tuesday, Stefan Keller wrote: Hi Spring, hi HOT team members This is not a critique of OSM tagging in general but about the inexistence of documentation and the lack of coordination/communication regarding tags used specifically in HOT. With this thread I want to address HOT team members and experienced HOT contributors. I hope that this time they take the time to respond and act. If you, Spring, want to help OSM I have a document for you from my Osmaxx project which you could review from a GIS perspective (it will be publicly available soon on github. In the meantime I'll send it to you directly). Cheers, Stefan 2015-05-19 21:38 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com: Hello Stefan Blake, I concur with the comments about the tag soup mess. As I have mentioned before, I am new to this OSM environment but have some years experience with GPS and GIS mapping and database design. To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design looked like a glorified scratchpad. I just downloaded and inspected 366,017 OSM database records. There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values. I extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388 records of those. It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard to see with this system. Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a confusing intermingling of features and attributes. Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be impossible to definitively extract a meaningful subset of any of the 366,000 records. Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be described in many different ways that are not consistent. Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of tagging somehow creates a usable end product. It may well be that I am not aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging. However, if it works, it is good. However I do believe that it will work better with a more robust database. Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have never seen such a jumble of terminology. Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design. I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field, since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s. I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative but concerned that the geographical and database underpinnings may be less than ideal. My observation from creating a few software applications, is that the lesser trained are the users, the much greater investment there needs to be in the user interface and training. GIS and GPS data collection is not particularly intuitive. My approach in projects of this kind is always to start at the far end with the users - what information are they wanting for whatever it is that they do? Then I look at the reporting requirements and finally design the data collection process to feed into that. In the case of this emergency relief operation, I'm hard-pressed to see the value in mapping video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and volleyball. To be fair, many of the other attributes could have value in providing relief services but in the record set that I downloaded, there seems to be little information related to the emergency relief effort. In over 366,000 records there are only 19 marked as aeroway = helipad. I'm not sure just how thorough you intend to be with the updating, streamlining and regularizing but I would be happy to help where possible. It would probably not be overly difficult to substitute a new feature/attribute catalogue into the OSM database. Translating the existing mass of keys and values to their new equivalent might be more challenging. Databases succeed because they conform to standard pattern sets. Again, sorry to be less than enthusiastic but perhaps things can be improved. Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 17-05-2015 08:29 Sunday, Stefan Keller wrote: Hi Blake Many thanks for your clarifications. 2015-05-15 22:13 GMT+02:00 Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com wrote/a écrit: ... We would welcome any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing HOT's tagging and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. I'd like to help and my proposal is 1. to collect and identify
Re: [HOT] Request for information about common set of tags for HOT (Was: OSM Nepal Reponse - Links to various infos)
Hello Stefan Blake, I concur with the comments about the tag soup mess. As I have mentioned before, I am new to this OSM environment but have some years experience with GPS and GIS mapping and database design. To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design looked like a glorified scratchpad. I just downloaded and inspected 366,017 OSM database records. There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values. I extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388 records of those. It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard to see with this system. Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a confusing intermingling of features and attributes. Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be impossible to definitively extract a meaningful subset of any of the 366,000 records. Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be described in many different ways that are not consistent. Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of tagging somehow creates a usable end product. It may well be that I am not aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging. However, if it works, it is good. However I do believe that it will work better with a more robust database. Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have never seen such a jumble of terminology. Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design. I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field, since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s. I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative but concerned that the geographical and database underpinnings may be less than ideal. My observation from creating a few software applications, is that the lesser trained are the users, the much greater investment there needs to be in the user interface and training. GIS and GPS data collection is not particularly intuitive. My approach in projects of this kind is always to start at the far end with the users - what information are they wanting for whatever it is that they do? Then I look at the reporting requirements and finally design the data collection process to feed into that. In the case of this emergency relief operation, I'm hard-pressed to see the value in mapping video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and volleyball. To be fair, many of the other attributes could have value in providing relief services but in the record set that I downloaded, there seems to be little information related to the emergency relief effort. In over 366,000 records there are only 19 marked as aeroway = helipad. I'm not sure just how thorough you intend to be with the updating, streamlining and regularizing but I would be happy to help where possible. It would probably not be overly difficult to substitute a new feature/attribute catalogue into the OSM database. Translating the existing mass of keys and values to their new equivalent might be more challenging. Databases succeed because they conform to standard pattern sets. Again, sorry to be less than enthusiastic but perhaps things can be improved. Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 17-05-2015 08:29 Sunday, Stefan Keller wrote: Hi Blake Many thanks for your clarifications. 2015-05-15 22:13 GMT+02:00 Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com wrote/a écrit: ... We would welcome any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing HOT's tagging and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. I'd like to help and my proposal is 1. to collect and identify most common tags specific to HOT 2. to mention and document them in Wiki page Humanitarian_OSM_Tags [1] So, to begin collecting the candidates, I only foumd these two: * damage:event=* * operator:type=private goveernment community The idp:camp_site=spontaneous_campp is already sub-specific to a disaster event. Any others tag or key candidates? Yours, S. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags 2015-05-15 22:13 GMT+02:00 Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com: Hi Stefan, HOT (and OSM) tagging has grown and evolved since we first started 5 or 6 years ago that is for sure. And given the somewhat intermittent participatory nature of OSM and the wiki things can for sure get out of sync. We would welcome any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing HOT's tagging and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. It is a big project for the
Re: [HOT] Idle thought time drones
Hello Jon, That would be good, there is some very good software available that employees point cloud technology for high accuracy 3-D mapping that ranges from $4-$10,000. As always, good planning and matching the product to the job requirements is important. Difficult to do on short notice after the fan blades are soiled. Drones are getting more prolific and cheaper, that's true. Battery life is still a problem and regulations are beginning to proliferate. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 14-05-2015 02:13 Thursday, kusala nine wrote: i was in san francisco at FOSS4G in March and there was a LOT of talk about opendronemap and the tools developed under open source to create good quality georeferenced imagery. thecost of drones has plummeted in the last couple of years and is now available in large quantitities to mainstream users. It strikes me this could make a big difference even in the search and rescue phases with quick turnaround of imagery on the ground straight to TMS servers. The issue will be locating suitable quantities, processing and creating the right targeted jobs to use it effectively - I think the technology is pretty much there. jon On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:57 AM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: HOT already has some experience of drones in Haiti using volunteers. If we can grab the images from them then I'm sure they can be processed in a similar way to the way they are being done in Haiti, we just need to work out what to do with the data. The sensors I strongly suspect just use a different part of the electromagnetic frequency, infra-red / UV for example. Crowdsourcing bit is more map the outline of the fields and give some of the programmers and GIS people something to play with. Initially if we can get 20% of the gains for 1% of the cost of a commercial system then I think its doable and we can build on that. If it works then there will be a lot of people very interested in mapping their bit of the world in OSM to get the benefits. I just float ideas sometimes. Cheerio John On 13 May 2015 at 19:22, Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com wrote: Good thoughts John, This is well underway with much hardware and software having been developed. As with everything, it has challenges. Googling should turn up tons of info on presion agriculture and crop health. The cameras, drones and image processing require fairly high technical knowledge, not likely a crowd activity. Drones have many other uses and may be useful for reckon/mapping in the Nepal disaster. They might be useful to augment helicopter reconnaissance and as a local eye in the sky for ground teams.  I have a back pack drone with an HD camera which can do local inspections for about 20 min. per battery. Very good for inaccessible areas. Drones will be our friends unless misuse brings an early demise. Cheers . . . . .  Spring Harrison Samsung Tab 4 On May 13, 2015 4:00 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: I created a grid as a separate data layer using JOSM and saved it to my computer. I pull it in when I need it. The grid interval is based on my preferred zoom level. Tom Taylor TomT5454 On 12/05/2015 7:45 AM, mii...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Dear everybody, I am looking for suggestions on how different people ensure that they have looked at the entire contents of a mapping square. e.g. How do you ensure you have looked at the whole square and found all buildings. At the moment I do a lot of panning and zooming and cover a square in a fairly random manner. I would like to have more structured method to ensure I have covered a square. Something like a transparent grid overlay for JOSM. I know that a task can be split and I have done that to a few squares but have also worked on larger squares. I am using JOSM and am able to figure out how to use all of the functions, sometimes I just don't know what function I am looking for. Thanks, Michael. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Idle thought time drones
Hi Jon, How did that work out in Haiti? Was it just for reconnaissance of damage or for georeferenced mapping? I would think that the data would be collected to suit a specific purpose. Reconnaissance, eye in the sky flying is relatively easy to do, good georeferenced imagery is a few steps up from that. Not sure how well crowd sourcing would work for that. Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 13-05-2015 17:57 Wednesday, john whelan wrote: HOT already has some experience of drones in Haiti using volunteers. If we can grab the images from them then I'm sure they can be processed in a similar way to the way they are being done in Haiti, we just need to work out what to do with the data. The sensors I strongly suspect just use a different part of the electromagnetic frequency, infra-red / UV for example. Crowdsourcing bit is more map the outline of the fields and give some of the programmers and GIS people something to play with. Initially if we can get 20% of the gains for 1% of the cost of a commercial system then I think its doable and we can build on that. If it works then there will be a lot of people very interested in mapping their bit of the world in OSM to get the benefits. I just float ideas sometimes. Cheerio John On 13 May 2015 at 19:22, Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com wrote: Good thoughts John, This is well underway with much hardware and software having been developed. As with everything, it has challenges. Googling should turn up tons of info on presion agriculture and crop health. The cameras, drones and image processing require fairly high technical knowledge, not likely a crowd activity. Drones have many other uses and may be useful for reckon/mapping in the Nepal disaster. They might be useful to augment helicopter reconnaissance and as a local eye in the sky for ground teams.  I have a back pack drone with an HD camera which can do local inspections for about 20 min. per battery. Very good for inaccessible areas. Drones will be our friends unless misuse brings an early demise. Cheers . . . . .  Spring Harrison Samsung Tab 4 On May 13, 2015 4:00 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: I created a grid as a separate data layer using JOSM and saved it to my computer. I pull it in when I need it. The grid interval is based on my preferred zoom level. Tom Taylor TomT5454 On 12/05/2015 7:45 AM, mii...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Dear everybody, I am looking for suggestions on how different people ensure that they have looked at the entire contents of a mapping square. e.g. How do you ensure you have looked at the whole square and found all buildings. At the moment I do a lot of panning and zooming and cover a square in a fairly random manner. I would like to have more structured method to ensure I have covered a square. Something like a transparent grid overlay for JOSM. I know that a task can be split and I have done that to a few squares but have also worked on larger squares. I am using JOSM and am able to figure out how to use all of the functions, sometimes I just don't know what function I am looking for. Thanks, Michael. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Hello Phil Michael, Thanks for the quick reply, my apologies for not seeing the KML file you attached. It opens fine in Manifold but only has text comments so querying for helipad is difficult. However, just did that and got 17 possible and probable helipads from the 1444 records. How many tiles does that represent do you think? I just noticed that you indicate around 1400 potential helipad sites. However, only 17 are flagged as such and 1401 have no information in them whatsoever. None of them have any key/value attributes, how were these records actually generated? Can I assume that they are either aeroway/helipad or leisure/common? It would be nice to know which is which. Have any been validated and how is that shown? Sorry for all the questions but the pedigree for this file seems a bit sketchy. Thanks for your comments. You may be right about QGIS, I'm not that familiar with it but I know that it happily opens many of my local shapefiles with no issues. Yes, JOSM was running under remote control but the transfer of data from turbo failed with cryptic error messages. My intent, actually suggested by someone else from OSM, is to inspect existing helipad candidates, and possibly find more, using the better reconnaissance capabilities inherent in Google Earth. I think it would be important to have the tile grid boundaries for that. Anyway, this may or may not be a good idea but I thought it showed promise. I will overlay your file on Google Earth tomorrow and let you know how things look. It may not be right away as I am well behind on other things now. Thanks again to all, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 10-05-2015 23:42 Sunday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: From: Springfield Harrison [mailto :stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015 3:43 PM To: Michael; 'HOT' Subject: Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello Michael, Thanks for your reply. So you are confirming that downloading OSM data through JSOM is a waste of time? I wish I had known this earlier. I was advised that it would download all of Nepal but that doesn't seem to be the case. JOSM is really just an editor for doing small area changes to OSM data - its not designed for country editing. QGIS however, can download any area in the world (subject to your bandwidth and hard disc size) I tried the open street map data link that you provided. It shows some promise but I haven't looked at the data yet. [Just looked at some of those shapefiles, they do load and display in QGIS. However, when I tried to change the symbology for the helipads, they all disappeared. WTF?] OK - thats likely a QGIS issue - nothing to do with OSM I also stumbled upon the HOT Export site. It is very convoluted but also shows promise once one figures out the myriad of options. Creating presets would be helped enormously if there were drop-down lists for the keys and their values. My last attempt here failed, probably due to bad capitalization or some such. It looks like a dog's breakfast. Now I see your reference to Overpass Turbo, hopefully not another blind alley. Simply downloading data in OSM is anything but streamlined. The key/value concept seems to complicate things considerably. What is the benefit of that system? I have fired up Overpass Turbo. Used the wizard to create and run a query but the export options only offers some less than useful choices. GPX and KML files are of limited use in a GIS and I don't recognize any of the other files. The geojson file was only recognized by QGIS but it would not display. Make sure JOSN is running (with remote control turned on) and then use the Overpass turbo export load data into an OSM editor: JOSM , Level0. Then in JOSN you can edit away as required Then I tried the KML and GPX files. I'm QGIS the KML file was listed but not accepted for viewing; the GPX layers were accepted but would not display. In JSON the KML file was not recognized and GPX file would not display. Most of this sounds like QGIS issues/familiarity not OSM issues. If I recall correctly, the option to send the query results directly to JSON failed also. This is a huge amount of trial and error with very little, almost nothing, to show for two late nights. I appreciate everyone's attempt to help, and have read many wiki pages but she's all uphill. My intention is very simple - · download a shapefile of the Nepal task tiles · download a shapefile of the potential and actual helipads [this might have been achieved with the Hot Export, the many attempts are all blurring together now] · possibly download a shapefile of other features The question here is what do you want to do with the data after you have it? We can suggest the best tools if we know what the whole job actually is. I have sent you a KML file of Leisure=common sites (around 1400 potential helipad sites) that you could use in Google Earth (as you previously mentioned that it would help you define better landing sites). I have also suggested
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Hello Phil, But it sounds as if you have heaps of experience with many GIS tools. Anyway, I will need to find out if there is any appetite for this new process to verify helipads. Not sure there is an official route for this or if I just send out more e-mails and see if anyone bites. Thanks Phil, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 11-05-2015 03:31 Monday, Phil Wyatt wrote: Hi Springfield, Alas, any import of edited data is beyond my current skill set. I am very much a beginner at HOT / OSM digitising. You will need to refer back to others in HOT for further advice before proceeding. More than happy to get the aeroway export for you. standby Cheers - Phil, On the road with his iPad On 11 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Phil, Right, thanks for the update. Introducing yet another data-entry method is certainly not ideal but the perspective view in GE is certainly a great help. I've edited 15 targets so far directly in GE and saved them as a different file. This file loads back into Manifold very well and, when done, I can synthesize a few extra fields of information about each helipad. Currently, I'm coding them 1, 2, 3 and adding altitude and comments. Code 1 is Good, 2 is probably OK, 3 is rejected as built-up, too small, off level, etc. I'm fairly confident with the coding so far, some ground truthng would be good. Progress is reasonably quick but there are over 1400. I now see that some of the OSM fields do not show up when the KML lands in Manifold but they are visible in GE itself. We should probably check the aeroway = helipad targets also. Really hard to assess these from purely an overhead view. I always in/zoom out, spin around and get a low level, oblique view before feeling confident. If there are tourist photos, that is also a great help. If there is any doubt about size or surface, I give it a 2. Maybe the re-integration can utilize the OSM-ID to separate the new material from the verified (relate the two tables). Perhaps some of this detail should be sorted out before I press on much further. Not sure how much time I can give this, but if it looks to be useful I will try to carry on. I've attached the edited file for your perusal. Thanks for your help, Done for now, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 11-05-2015 01:22 Monday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: Hi Springfield, I am not sure of the actual number of tiles. I did this as a minimalist example of what is possible. Given the file is now 6 hours old it's likely there have been many edits already by other mappers. The file was simply a QGIS filter of all those polygons with leisure=common as an attribute. The instructions in the task manager were to mark up any possible helicopter sites with such tags. http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1023 - also check the instructions Tab On review some of these areas may be edited to circles, get tags to include aeroway=helipad or other tags. That's up to the task managers or maybe the validators http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/344152513 You could certainly edit the kml file (or turn it in to another format in QGIS or maybe manifold) and then add another field to have clickable links to the actual way in OSM (as in the format above). All that is possible but just remember there may be many others using overpass turbo, task manager, checking tags, validating and adding more areas all the time. #1023 is now 92% complete Cheers - Phil From: Springfield Harrison [ mailto:stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015 5:39 PM To: Phil (The Geek) Wyatt; 'Michael'; 'HOT' Subject: RE: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello Phil Michael, Thanks for the quick reply, my apologies for not seeing the KML file you attached. It opens fine in Manifold but only has text comments so querying for helipad is difficult. However, just did that and got 17 possible and probable helipads from the 1444 records. How many tiles does that represent do you think? I just noticed that you indicate around 1400 potential helipad sites. However, only 17 are flagged as such and 1401 have no information in them whatsoever. None of them have any key/value attributes, how were these records actually generated? Can I assume that they are either aeroway/helipad or leisure/common? It would be nice to know which is which. Have any been validated and how is that shown? Sorry for all the questions but the pedigree for this file seems a bit sketchy. Thanks for your comments. You may be right about QGIS, I'm not that familiar with it but I know that it happily opens many of my local shapefiles with no issues. Yes, JOSM was running under remote control but the transfer of data from turbo failed with cryptic error messages. My intent, actually suggested by someone else from OSM, is to inspect existing helipad candidates, and possibly find more, using the better reconnaissance capabilities inherent in Google Earth. I think it would be important to have the tile grid
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Posting of your message titled RE: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. has been rejected by the list moderator. File too big, deleted, sorry for duplication to those who received it earlier . . . . Hi Phil, Right, thanks for the update. Introducing yet another data-entry method is certainly not ideal but the perspective view in GE is certainly a great help. I've edited 15 targets so far directly in GE and saved them as a different file. This file loads back into Manifold very well and, when done, I can synthesize a few extra fields of information about each helipad. Currently, I'm coding them 1, 2, 3 and adding altitude and comments. Code 1 is Good, 2 is probably OK, 3 is rejected as built-up, too small, off level, etc. I'm fairly confident with the coding so far, some ground truthing would be good. Progress is reasonably quick but there are over 1400. I now see that some of the OSM fields do not show up when the KML lands in Manifold but they are visible in GE itself. We should probably check the aeroway = helipad targets also. Really hard to assess these from purely an overhead view. I always in/zoom out, spin around and get a low level, oblique view before feeling confident. If there are tourist photos, that is also a great help. If there is any doubt about size or surface, I give it a 2. Maybe the re-integration can utilize the OSM-ID to separate the new material from the verified (relate the two tables). Perhaps some of this detail should be sorted out before I press on much further. Not sure how much time I can give this, but if it looks to be useful I will try to carry on. I've attached the edited file for your perusal. Thanks for your help, Done for now, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 11-05-2015 01:22 Monday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: Hi Springfield, I am not sure of the actual number of tiles. I did this as a minimalist example of what is possible. Given the file is now 6 hours old it's likely there have been many edits already by other mappers. The file was simply a QGIS filter of all those polygons with leisure=common as an attribute. The instructions in the task manager were to mark up any possible helicopter sites with such tags. http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1023 - also check the instructions Tab On review some of these areas may be edited to circles, get tags to include aeroway=helipad or other tags. That's up to the task managers or maybe the validators http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/344152513 You could certainly edit the kml file (or turn it in to another format in QGIS or maybe manifold) and then add another field to have clickable links to the actual way in OSM (as in the format above). All that is possible but just remember there may be many others using overpass turbo, task manager, checking tags, validating and adding more areas all the time. #1023 is now 92% complete Cheers - Phil From: Springfield Harrison [ mailto:stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015 5:39 PM To: Phil (The Geek) Wyatt; 'Michael'; 'HOT' Subject: RE: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello Phil Michael, Thanks for the quick reply, my apologies for not seeing the KML file you attached. It opens fine in Manifold but only has text comments so querying for helipad is difficult. However, just did that and got 17 possible and probable helipads from the 1444 records. How many tiles does that represent do you think? I just noticed that you indicate around 1400 potential helipad sites. However, only 17 are flagged as such and 1401 have no information in them whatsoever. None of them have any key/value attributes, how were these records actually generated? Can I assume that they are either aeroway/helipad or leisure/common? It would be nice to know which is which. Have any been validated and how is that shown? Sorry for all the questions but the pedigree for this file seems a bit sketchy. Thanks for your comments. You may be right about QGIS, I'm not that familiar with it but I know that it happily opens many of my local shapefiles with no issues. Yes, JOSM was running under remote control but the transfer of data from turbo failed with cryptic error messages. My intent, actually suggested by someone else from OSM, is to inspect existing helipad candidates, and possibly find more, using the better reconnaissance capabilities inherent in Google Earth. I think it would be important to have the tile grid boundaries for that. Anyway, this may or may not be a good idea but I thought it showed promise. I will overlay your file on Google Earth tomorrow and let you know how things look. It may not be right away as I am well behind on other things now. Thanks again to all, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 10-05-2015 23:42 Sunday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: From: Springfield Harrison [mailto :stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015 3:43 PM To: Michael; 'HOT' Subject: Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello Michael, Thanks for your reply. So you are confirming
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Hello Stefan, OK, thanks for those references. They fill in the background a bit. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 11-05-2015 14:31 Monday, Stefan Keller wrote: Hi Harrison Have a look at http://market.weogeo.com/datasets/osm-openstreetmap-planet.html and http://labs.geofabrik.de/nepal/ And if you can wait another two months then look for project Osmaxx... -S. 2015-05-11 9:38 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com: Hello Phil Michael, Thanks for the quick reply, my apologies for not seeing the KML file you attached. It opens fine in Manifold but only has text comments so querying for helipad is difficult. However, just did that and got 17 possible and probable helipads from the 1444 records. How many tiles does that represent do you think? I just noticed that you indicate around 1400 potential helipad sites. However, only 17 are flagged as such and 1401 have no information in them whatsoever. None of them have any key/value attributes, how were these records actually generated? Can I assume that they are either aeroway/helipad or leisure/common? It would be nice to know which is which. Have any been validated and how is that shown? Sorry for all the questions but the pedigree for this file seems a bit sketchy. Thanks for your comments. You may be right about QGIS, I'm not that familiar with it but I know that it happily opens many of my local shapefiles with no issues. Yes, JOSM was running under remote control but the transfer of data from turbo failed with cryptic error messages. My intent, actually suggested by someone else from OSM, is to inspect existing helipad candidates, and possibly find more, using the better reconnaissance capabilities inherent in Google Earth. I think it would be important to have the tile grid boundaries for that. Anyway, this may or may not be a good idea but I thought it showed promise. I will overlay your file on Google Earth tomorrow and let you know how things look. It may not be right away as I am well behind on other things now. Thanks again to all, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 10-05-2015 23:42 Sunday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: From: Springfield Harrison [mailto :stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015 3:43 PM To: Michael; 'HOT' Subject: Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello Michael, Thanks for your reply. So you are confirming that downloading OSM data through JSOM is a waste of time? I wish I had known this earlier. I was advised that it would download all of Nepal but that doesn't seem to be the case. JOSM is really just an editor for doing small area changes to OSM data - its not designed for country editing. QGIS however, can download any area in the world (subject to your bandwidth and hard disc size) I tried the open street map data link that you provided. It shows some promise but I haven't looked at the data yet. [Just looked at some of those shapefiles, they do load and display in QGIS. However, when I tried to change the symbology for the helipads, they all disappeared. WTF?] OK - thats likely a QGIS issue - nothing to do with OSM I also stumbled upon the HOT Export site. It is very convoluted but also shows promise once one figures out the myriad of options. Creating presets would be helped enormously if there were drop-down lists for the keys and their values. My last attempt here failed, probably due to bad capitalization or some such. It looks like a dog's breakfast. Now I see your reference to Overpass Turbo, hopefully not another blind alley. Simply downloading data in OSM is anything but streamlined. The key/value concept seems to complicate things considerably. What is the benefit of that system? I have fired up Overpass Turbo. Used the wizard to create and run a query but the export options only offers some less than useful choices. GPX and KML files are of limited use in a GIS and I don't recognize any of the other files. The geojson file was only recognized by QGIS but it would not display. Make sure JOSN is running (with remote control turned on) and then use the Overpass turbo export load data into an OSM editor: JOSM , Level0. Then in JOSN you can edit away as required Then I tried the KML and GPX files. I'm QGIS the KML file was listed but not accepted for viewing; the GPX layers were accepted but would not display. In JSON the KML file was not recognized and GPX file would not display. Most of this sounds like QGIS issues/familiarity not OSM issues. If I recall correctly, the option to send the query results directly to JSON failed also. This is a huge amount of trial and error with very little, almost nothing, to show for two late nights. I appreciate everyone's attempt to help, and have read many wiki pages but she's all uphill. My intention is very simple - · download a shapefile of the Nepal task tiles · download a shapefile of the potential
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Hello John, I'm not up on the intricacies of the OSM database but could probably figure it out fairly easily if there is any documentation to be had. Or even if not. I'm quite familiar with Manifold GIS, used to work with ArcView and have recently acquired QGIS. Over the years, I have done lots of data import, export and translation. If you can point me towards that helicopter landing pad data, I would be happy to have a look at it. I presume I would access the complete OSM database and then query to extract the helipad records. I also am puzzled about the use of Google Earth. I don't propose to misappropriate their imagery or flog the resulting lists for commercial gain or sue them if a particular helipad turns out to be less than ideal. To me, it is just an excellent background for assessing terrain. I wonder if it can be coerced into loading post earthquake imagery? Following on, how available is the file for the map of all the tiles used in the Tasking process? That would be very useful for working outside of OSM. I imagine all these files are online if I could just find the right address. Thanks very much, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 09-05-2015 19:26 Saturday, john o'l wrote: Alas, the simple options that appeared to allow QGIS to make direct OSM uploads seem to have disappeared with updates over the past few years and I lack the technical chops to code an appropriate tool.  QGIS seems to prefer creating shape (SHP) files, and I found that copying and pasting an attribute table will create a text file (I believe tab delimited) of the format: POLYGON((longitudespacelatitude,longitudespacelatitude,...etc)) then attributes/tags. First question is whether anyone has or knows of an easy conversion/upload tool to get this data into OSM? The closest I found still would have had me manipulating python or XML -- I am sure no sensible people really want me to go down that road. Getting to know QGIS has been a treat, by the way. It is great at extracting data from OSM and the imagery services associated with it. For folks having trouble with the free form nature of OSM, it allows sifting and structuring the data in a way that may be quite pleasing. I can't help but think Spring Harrison might enjoy extracting all the helicopter landing pads and leisure=common in earthquake hit areas and give them a thorough review, producing a shape or text file of his recommended choices. It seems data generated by osm users contained within Google's kmls would be available as long as it was extracted? Surely putting something in an envelope doesn't render it the property of the envelope manufacturer... Anyway, any help or non-coding recommendations would be appreciated! Cheers, John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I agree with the comments that I've formatted in bold below, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 09-05-2015 15:34 Saturday, Suzan Reed wrote: Validating: Validation button only shows up for user with x number of edits/tiles completed and/or passing a quick validation test. Survey: Survey to all new users would provide data for improvement of OSM marketing, use, and training. The sooner the better. Where do you comment? Don't know where else to make these suggestions as OSM seems to be quite scattered in training and feedback. One place to list all training: Would suggest someone take leadership to bring all training under one umbrella, i.e. a site where every training link is listed, with the goal to eventually have all training on one site. It seems to me a lot of highly talented and intelligent people are doing excellent work to provide background and training, but it's done ad hoc without any coordination. If it were coordinated, what a treasure it would be. I volunteer to work on a team with more experienced OSM members to 1) set up this page/site at OSM.org 2) gather all links to training in every language 3) organize them 4) promote them. Suzan Reed USA On May 9, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard wrote: Hi all, I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO. I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners: https://github.com/hotosm/osm- tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624). The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say) It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me directly for monitoring her tasks. We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers. Sincerely, Severin On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul paulok...@hotmail.com wrote: Dear openstreetmappers :) I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018. Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers. I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams. Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped. Paul ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Further bad news, trying to download OSM through JOSM yielded the following message: The OSM server 'api.openstreetmap.org' reported a bad request. The area you tried to download is too big or your request was too large. Either request a smaller area or use an export file provided by the OSM community. Does this process usually work? Is it not possible to simply get a shapefile of this information and avoid all the multiple file type rigmarole? Thanks Phil, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 09-05-2015 23:12 Saturday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/QGIS#QGIS2_OpenStreetMap_Vectors This is the quickest way to get OSM data into QGIS From: Springfield Harrison [ mailto:stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 10 May 2015 3:59 PM To: john o'l; HOT Subject: Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello John, I'm not up on the intricacies of the OSM database but could probably figure it out fairly easily if there is any documentation to be had. Or even if not. I'm quite familiar with Manifold GIS, used to work with ArcView and have recently acquired QGIS. Over the years, I have done lots of data import, export and translation. If you can point me towards that helicopter landing pad data, I would be happy to have a look at it. I presume I would access the complete OSM database and then query to extract the helipad records. I also am puzzled about the use of Google Earth. I don't propose to misappropriate their imagery or flog the resulting lists for commercial gain or sue them if a particular helipad turns out to be less than ideal. To me, it is just an excellent background for assessing terrain. I wonder if it can be coerced into loading post earthquake imagery? Following on, how available is the file for the map of all the tiles used in the Tasking process? That would be very useful for working outside of OSM. I imagine all these files are online if I could just find the right address. Thanks very much, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 09-05-2015 19:26 Saturday, john o'l wrote: Alas, the simple options that appeared to allow QGIS to make direct OSM uploads seem to have disappeared with updates over the past few years and I lack the technical chops to code an appropriate tool.  QGIS seems to prefer creating shape (SHP) files, and I found that copying and pasting an attribute table will create a text file (I believe tab delimited) of the format: POLYGON((longitudespacelatitude,longitudespacelatitude,...etc)) then attributes/tags. First question is whether anyone has or knows of an easy conversion/upload tool to get this data into OSM? The closest I found still would have had me manipulating python or XML -- I am sure no sensible people really want me to go down that road. Getting to know QGIS has been a treat, by the way. It is great at extracting data from OSM and the imagery services associated with it. For folks having trouble with the free form nature of OSM, it allows sifting and structuring the data in a way that may be quite pleasing. I can't help but think Spring Harrison might enjoy extracting all the helicopter landing pads and leisure=common in earthquake hit areas and give them a thorough review, producing a shape or text file of his recommended choices. It seems data generated by osm users contained within Google's kmls would be available as long as it was extracted? Surely putting something in an envelope doesn't render it the property of the envelope manufacturer... Anyway, any help or non-coding recommendations would be appreciated! Cheers, John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] landslides and imagery
Hello John, With reference to your moving boulder, just wondering if that could be in fact moving, i.e., not an image based coordinate shift as such. I'm just thinking that with aftershocks and general instability, many of these new features are still sorting themselves out and traveling downhill. Can DG or Bing make stereo pairs available? Likely a long shot, but thought I would ask. Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 09-05-2015 17:49 Saturday, john o'l wrote: I've been focusing on landslides and have located several score that appear recent. Of these, a few are pre-quake and appear relatively stable, some are pre-quake but appear reactivated and many appear to have been associated with the quake and/or aftershocks. I've mapped several dozen of these so far. In my next email, I'll cover why you won't find them in osm... yet. For this one, I'd like to stick to post quake imagery and some of its quirks. There is an inhabited hillside that had numerous landslides, some predate the quake, but most are presumably related. So far I've mapped about half of them, those that are largest or appear to threaten buildings and pathways. There is Digital Globe imagery available from May 3 and May 8. It looks like QGIS easily operates with more than one coordinate system at a time. The center of a large boulder in the May 3 imagery (Longitude, Latitude; WGS84 EPSG:3857 x,y) is at 85.85659,27.83609;9557511.789,3228324.329, in the May 8 imagery it is at 85.85669,27.83656;9557522.728,3228382.865. Mind you, this is not a complaint, rather it is a concrete example of the variability with this recent imagery.  A more extreme example is a slide that appeared to be partially blocking a stream in the May 3 imagery 85.90258,27.87818;9562631.312,3233623.303; -- it was completely obscured by a hillside in the May 8 imagery (probably taken from a more northerly or northwesterly vantage point.) Downslope (westward) from a likely reactivated slide located at 85.81987,27.90810;9553423.739,3237391.771  is a remote area that appears very hard hit. The May 8th imagery is mostly clouds, but the May 3rd imagery shows a blue rooftop at 85.80644,27.90818;9551929.301,3237402.414, it looks like there are several large boulders in the immediate area and there is not much left to tell there were more than 20 buildings nearby. While the boulders may have contributed, at the moment I think it is probable that the shaking itself was mostly responsible for the extreme level of destruction. One advantage of different acquisition angles is that some features may be discernible on slopes that don't ordinarily show up very well.  Question to the HOT folks -- is there a way to specify the date of DG imagery we access through the proxy server?, Some of the May 8 imagery is starting to come up over the May 3 imagery without me telling it to.  Best regards, John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] [info-hotosm] Reference Project #1030 Nepal Earthquake
Hello Steve, Thanks for that clarification, I think I get the distinctions. Are you saying that the image shift is not saved, it is only evident on the local computer? So other users would not see that change, is that correct? However, there is an image shift database which implies that the shifts are permanent and could be documented. Yes, I was aware of the off-nadir angle problem but didn't realize it was an issue here. As you know, the best part of the image is near the center, the off-nadir approach is like looking past the far edge of the photo! Necessary in this case, I suppose. Sorry to be a bit obtuse, but this image shifting practice is new to me. Thanks again, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 09-05-2015 11:03 Saturday, Steve Bower wrote: Spring, When I talk about moving the imagery that is only to align it with Bing imagery as I work in a very localized area, in order to confirm that the features are (roughly) correctly located, relative to Bing. It does not change the geo-referencing of the underlying data for other users - it is only revising it for my display. I expect that how you understood it, but in case that wasn't clear. I haven't personally digitized anything from the DG imagery. I have only used it to help with interpretation where the Bing imagery is poor (low res or cloudy). But others may be locating features from the DG imagery - hopefully only experienced mappers with careful reference to better geo-rectified imagery (hopefully being the aspect that gives us all concern, of course). I fully agree this is not best practice for digital mapping - it's best available within resource constraints for crisis response. By the way, you may already be very familiar with this, but the elevation aspect of ortho-rectification is described here (see image at top-right): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthophoto. Or see the first image in this page: http://www.kevinroper.org/portfolio/ . These explain why the more severe off-nadir angle causes greater location distortion, more difficult to correct for. On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Kevin Bullock kbull...@digitalglobe.com wrote: Does Digital Globe supply Bing images? Just curious, they are always referred to as different products. Yes, Microsoft licenses DigitalGlobe imagery for many parts of the world, youâll notice the attribution in the Bing Maps platform. In various threads, Iâve seen Bing imagery âversusâ DigitalGlobe imagery, and that is usually a contradiction. The proper way of characterizing it is: DigitalGlobe imagery through the Bing platform versus DigitalGlobe imagery being made available during this crisis. https://www.digitalglobe.com/partners/platform-partners/microsoft Cheers, Kevin This electronic communication and any attachments may contain confidential and proprietary information of DigitalGlobe, Inc. If you are not the intended recipient, or an agent or employee responsible for delivering this communication to the intended recipient, or if you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate or otherwise use the information. Please indicate to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and delete the copy you received. DigitalGlobe reserves the right to monitor any electronic communication sent or received by its employees, agents or representatives. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and..
Hello Phil, Thanks very much, was able to invoke that process and create the other files under the Vector/OSM options. I ended up with quite a few files/layers in the Browser and Layers Windows. But, for the life of me, I could not get any of them to display. None of them could be dragged into the map window. I read through the help files on QGIS and it said to drag the layer/files on the map view window to see them. That option appeared to be an invalid one according to symbology accompanying the cursor. This error message showed up but the process appeared to continue OK. Could not read file 'OSM.osm'. Error is: Missing attribute 'version' on OSM primitive with ID 3384278995. (at line 6, column 58). 306 bytes have been read Further investigation indicates that the point line and polygon layers have 0 features, something has cocked up. What is the trick to get these layers to display? I am new to QGIS, thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 09-05-2015 23:12 Saturday, Phil \(The Geek\) Wyatt wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/QGIS#QGIS2_OpenStreetMap_Vectors This is the quickest way to get OSM data into QGIS From: Springfield Harrison [ mailto:stellar...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 10 May 2015 3:59 PM To: john o'l; HOT Subject: Re: [HOT] QGIS and OSM and.. Hello John, I'm not up on the intricacies of the OSM database but could probably figure it out fairly easily if there is any documentation to be had. Or even if not. I'm quite familiar with Manifold GIS, used to work with ArcView and have recently acquired QGIS. Over the years, I have done lots of data import, export and translation. If you can point me towards that helicopter landing pad data, I would be happy to have a look at it. I presume I would access the complete OSM database and then query to extract the helipad records. I also am puzzled about the use of Google Earth. I don't propose to misappropriate their imagery or flog the resulting lists for commercial gain or sue them if a particular helipad turns out to be less than ideal. To me, it is just an excellent background for assessing terrain. I wonder if it can be coerced into loading post earthquake imagery? Following on, how available is the file for the map of all the tiles used in the Tasking process? That would be very useful for working outside of OSM. I imagine all these files are online if I could just find the right address. Thanks very much, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 09-05-2015 19:26 Saturday, john o'l wrote: Alas, the simple options that appeared to allow QGIS to make direct OSM uploads seem to have disappeared with updates over the past few years and I lack the technical chops to code an appropriate tool.  QGIS seems to prefer creating shape (SHP) files, and I found that copying and pasting an attribute table will create a text file (I believe tab delimited) of the format: POLYGON((longitudespacelatitude,longitudespacelatitude,...etc)) then attributes/tags. First question is whether anyone has or knows of an easy conversion/upload tool to get this data into OSM? The closest I found still would have had me manipulating python or XML -- I am sure no sensible people really want me to go down that road. Getting to know QGIS has been a treat, by the way. It is great at extracting data from OSM and the imagery services associated with it. For folks having trouble with the free form nature of OSM, it allows sifting and structuring the data in a way that may be quite pleasing. I can't help but think Spring Harrison might enjoy extracting all the helicopter landing pads and leisure=common in earthquake hit areas and give them a thorough review, producing a shape or text file of his recommended choices. It seems data generated by osm users contained within Google's kmls would be available as long as it was extracted? Surely putting something in an envelope doesn't render it the property of the envelope manufacturer... Anyway, any help or non-coding recommendations would be appreciated! Cheers, John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] [info-hotosm] Reference Project #1030 Nepal Earthquake
OK, thanks Kevin. So someone not paying attention to this level of detail might not actually know if they're using a Bing or DG image? However, the word is to use Bing as the positional standard. This sounds like a potential procedural problem. Then in JOSM, if the layer list says Bing, then it is Bing? Or do we use the copyright designation on the image itself? Which might contradict the designation in the layer list. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 09-05-2015 07:30 Saturday, Kevin Bullock wrote: Does Digital Globe supply Bing images? Just curious, they are always referred to as different products. Yes, Microsoft licenses DigitalGlobe imagery for many parts of the world, you'll notice the attribution in the Bing Maps platform. In various threads, I've seen Bing imagery versus DigitalGlobe imagery, and that is usually a contradiction. The proper way of characterizing it is: DigitalGlobe imagery through the Bing platform versus DigitalGlobe imagery being made available during this crisis. https://www.digitalglobe.com/partners/platform-partners/microsoft Cheers, Kevin This electronic communication and any attachments may contain confidential and proprietary information of DigitalGlobe, Inc. If you are not the intended recipient, or an agent or employee responsible for delivering this communication to the intended recipient, or if you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate or otherwise use the information. Please indicate to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and delete the copy you received. DigitalGlobe reserves the right to monitor any electronic communication sent or received by its employees, agents or representatives. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Missing Maps Training Video Suggestions
Thanks Robert, for a 10-year-old organization, some things still seem to be in the early stages (training?). I'm new here so maybe this isn't entirely accurate. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 07-05-2015 14:11 Thursday, Robert Banick wrote: Hi All, Excellent points and criticisms all around. The amount of feedback from new contributors during this response has been extremely welcome but also a bit humbling at times. Weâve got so much to do. A few quick responses to key points. 1. OSM is 10 years old but for much of that time was a âby nerds, for nerdsâ project. Only in the past few years have the tools for conventional GIS usage really come into their own. 2. HOT itself has been around for a long time, but only took off 5 years ago after the earthquake in Haiti. Since then itâs been a slow but steady journey towards professionalism. Weâve spent a lot of our energy working with local communities and building up critical technical infrastructure like the Tasking Manager which trust me,, did not appear out of nowhere. Clearly itâs time to invest in training materials. 3. HOTâs contributions are used and makes a difference. I used to work for the Red Cross and we used OSM data from HOT *all the time*. In many cases it was the *only* data for disaster affected areas. Simply put, it was irreplaceable. And if sometimes it was not 100% accurate, that was OK. 90% accurate is better than 0% available. 4. You all bring up such good points and criticisms. Right now a lot of people are working themselves to death just responding, so please donât take it personally if you donât get immediate responses to your suggestions. Please stick around until we have time to follow up and work with you to make things better. It may take a month but it will be so valuable. Cheers, Robert Sent from Mailbox On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: OSM and HOT are volunteer organizations. And we are force to adapt rapidly to the reality of responses like for Nepal. People with experience to develop such material either through a wiki page, github or other are welcomed. With the extent of this response, we organized various support groups to take care of Imagery, Validation, Imports, Routing, etc. We also have a HOT training group. People interested to contribute can write to activation @ hotosm.org. We will follow your contact to the training group. regard  Pierre De : Steve Bower sbo...@gmavt.net à: Suzan Reed su...@suzanreed.com Cc : HOT hot@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Jeudi 7 mai 2015 11h06 Objet : Re: [HOT] Missing Maps Training Video Suggestions A few thoughts on the training materials, from a 2-week OSM user and long-time GIS user: I have not yet found the single, systematically organized portal for access to all training materials events, This would be great to have, and other training references could point back to it. The closest I have found is the HOT Training working group, current sources and materials: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Working_groups/Training#Current_Sources_.26_Materials But, for example, that page does not point to How to get started contributing to a HOT task: https://gist.github.com/meetar/b9929dfec129d1d7f5f2 So yes, Suzan, I think organization and production of comprehensive training material is a great idea - thank you. I think getting the top-down organization right is key. It seems this would be guided by the HOT Training working group (is there a general OSM training working group?). Existing training materials on how to use OSM and the editors is fairly comprehensive, but somewhat scattered. Multiple sources overlap in the material they cover. An OSM/HOT training portal would help identify gaps and guide where new material (including new videos) is needed. Training on how to interpret features from imagery is minimal. This could really be expanded, with examples of special cases, especially for poor-quality imagery where interpretation is difficult. Interpretation issues seem to dominate a lot of quality concerns and newbie questions. I don't think it's reasonable to expect new mappers to be able to take quick start training and jump into contributing, at least for those who have not mapped before. For HOT response in particular, I think the expectation should be that mappers should expect to invest at least a day of on-line training before starting to contribute. Yes, that would turn away some mappers, but with the benefit of fewer quality issues. Yes, you can learn to trace buildings in far less time, but many mappers soon confront more complex tasks and a better training foundation would serve them well. (My opinion on this may evolve...) Cheers, Steve On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Suzan Reed su...@suzanreed.com wrote: Althio and all. I don't understand the shared document format, and don't find it an easy place to express these views, nor do I
Re: [HOT] [info-hotosm] Helipad Identification/Verification
Hello Paul, Thanks for your comment, a word to the wise I suppose. However, Google Earth is set up to record points and lines, save them to KML files and even publish them on a public website if I recall correctly. This would seem to invite the creation of data catalogs, at least for noncommercial purposes. Failing this approach, perhaps an enterprise contract could be developed under the aegis of OSM, the Red Cross or some such agency providing an emergency response? It seems to me that in a dire situation such as exists in Nepal, perhaps the lawyers could back off a bit and let the volunteers get cracking with the best available tools for the job at hand. I presume there is no commercial aspect to these projects and that it is indeed purely humanitarian. Or possibly a token contract fee or licensing charge could be established. The technology exists, what better application than a major disaster? I can assure you, based on my years of experience with both helicopters and Google Earth, Google Earth is a much more productive way to identify helipads then JOSM. No, I did not create any data points from my Google Earth experiment. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 09-05-2015 00:15 Saturday, Paul Norman wrote: On 5/8/2015 11:39 PM, Springfield Harrison wrote: ... The Google terms of service do not permit the use of Google imagery to generate a map database*, which prevents the use of Google Earth with default imagery. Did you add any helipads based on Google imagery? If so, can you please send me details off-list. * If you have an enterprise contract for Google Earth, you may have different terms, but consult your lawyer. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Missing Maps Training Video Suggestions
Hello althio, I did make quite a few additions to the shared document, that is a good method for consolidating ideas in one place. I am a bit nervous about the 1 min. concept. 1 min. is not very long, most topics are going to require a bit more than that. Surely, we can expect the volunteer's attention span to stretch to perhaps three or 5 min. If the videos are only 1 min. long, hundreds will be required to cover the whole realm. Cataloging them will be a major task and who will want to wade through scores of video listings to find a paltry 1 min. dissertation? Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 07-05-2015 14:18 Thursday, althio wrote: Springfield, Suzan, all, special mention to Lars, I do encourage you to share your suggestions and experience as newcomers in the shared document where it could be put to much better use than in the mailing list. You have the opportunity to get involved at a very veeery early stage of this videos project. Of course the document is pretty rough, this is collaborative and brainstorming. Seize the day. Make your mark. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mo82sCLLnP30SsgRO1VIpGxezWcQhAQ_HxEpCEPh89o/edit?usp=sharing Another disclaimer: this initiative of 1-minute videos is led by MissingMaps. I fully support it and try to foster it but I am not in charge. People in charge may not read or answer in this mailing list. If you want to give feedback and ideas on this: go and edit the shared document. Let me be blunt at this point: in the scope of this video project, when pointed to an external document, any comment left in the mailing list is 100 times less useful and 1000 times more likely to be forgotten. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mo82sCLLnP30SsgRO1VIpGxezWcQhAQ_HxEpCEPh89o/edit?usp=sharing As everything in open data and open source, don't be afraid of making some errors. Your input will be reviewed and modified by others, and everything will improve with time and contributions. The instructional materials that do exist also seem to be scattered among many sites and documents; I have given up trying to keep track. That statement applies to all fields of knowledge that I know of. - althio wall of links: active contributor in the Training Working Group train...@hotosm.org http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Working_groups/Training member of the LearnOSM team learn...@hotosm.org http://learnosm.org/en/beginner/ HOT is a partner of MSF-UK, British Red Cross and American Red Cross with MissingMaps http://www.missingmaps.org/ http://www.msf.org.uk/missing-maps-project http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Missing_Maps_Project Fresh from today: http://www.msf.org.uk/msf-scientific-day-catch-up Session 1: Keynote speech unchartered territory: mapping for humanitarian responses ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] [info-hotosm] Helipad Identification/Verification
This is a re-post from yesterday as it was too big and was rejected by the list moderator (image?). I've deleted the image. My apologies to those who did receive it already. Cheers . . . . Spring Harrison . . . . Hello Mappers, Thanks for your comments and observations in reply to mine of yesterday. Unfortunately, no time to deal with all of them separately right now. A forum format would be much more efficient for exploring discussions; this e-mail approach is quite fragmented. I'm sorry if I have missed anyone in this reply, the cast of characters seems to vary. Have been exploring the verification process for task 1026-236, helipad identification. Some observations follow: · one potential helipad identified, no actual helipads · it looks like there are likely quite a few more but hard to be sure using this imagery, although it is not bad quality · although listed in the layers pane as Bing Imagery, the caption at the bottom of the photo says Digital Globe, this is confusing · three forested polygons have been drawn but have very crude outlines and don't actually represent the forested areas very well at all; many other apparently similar forested areas are not mapped. These polygons lie mostly outside the boundaries of tile 236. During a natural disaster response, is there some purpose to roughly mapping random blocks of forest land? · On a second monitor, I viewed the same area (236) in Google Earth and immediately got a vastly better feel for the terrain and was able to quickly identify several good helipads with good certainty as to quality. My background includes helicopter piloting as well as GIS. · At least for locating helipads, I would highly favour using Google Earth, the perspective view and better image quality vastly increases productivity. · Markups could be done directly in Google Earth, saved as KML files and forwarded to OSM. Image attached below. · The only problem with this method is that the Task Area tile grid would need to be provided for navigation. I doubt if that would be difficult as a KML file. · In some cases, the age of the Google Earth imagery may be a slight drawback but since production is the chief imperative here, that shouldn't be a big issue. · Perhaps a customized Google Earth application using current disaster imagery could be fired up for the duration of this exercise? On-the-fly innovation is needed in emergencies. · As a test, you could send me a collection of helipads for inspection in Google Earth, it is very difficult to verify them in JOSM. In Google Earth, the reconnaissance process is quite fast and effective. · I noticed that there are countless Key Terms, many of them having obscure meanings at best. This would surely confuse most new users and lead to inaccurate tagging. The forest polygons are labeled as natural = wood in one case and land-use = forest in another although they appear to be much the same type of forest. No wonder data verification cannot be accomplished on input; it looks like every user invents their own terminology! E.g., leisure = common denotes a helipad? JOSM is certainly not for the faint of heart. · Most database/GIS projects use a data dictionary approach with a more limited but meaningful list of potential attributes. The existing data structure would make effective querying almost impossible, far too many overlapping options now. It would be interesting to see how these tags actually get used when there is so much near-duplication and ambiguity. I hope these observations are helpful. I think the use of Google Earth would improve the helipad selection process by orders of magnitude. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] [info-hotosm] Reference Project #1030 Nepal Earthquake
risk that some mappers will map directly from un-rectified imagery, and introduce problematic location errors. That needs to be minimized, e.g., through clear instructions and good validation. I think there's room for improvement on the instructions, e.g., it would be good to have a wiki page on mapping from un-rectified imagery in combination with rectified imagery, for crisis response. Thanks On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net wrote: Hello Springfield Harrison, As a 20 year GIS veteran I understand what you say. I do agree that in communication with first responders it is important to have them clearly understand that the accuracy of features can be off ~100m. But for them having maps that give a good indication is way better then having no maps at all. In the end, and that is what I hope for, it can save lives. I have a long running discussion with y'olde GIS community on how can a map created by amateurs be better then what we professionals do?. It is my opinion that it can be. I believe that the many are smarter than the few (quote by James Surowiecki). And the HOT tasks have all the ingredients to succeed: 1. There is diversity of opinion 2. People involved in the mapping process have opinions not influenced by those around them 3. People operate decentralized The only thing that might need more attention (and this is where geospatial experts can take their role) is that HOT and openstreetmap as a whole could use more mechanisms to turn all these little private judgements into collective quality. This process could involve analysing quantity and different representations of the same feature through time. In that way, you could see the mapping activity (in dense area's) as GPS. There are faults, influenced by methodology, opinion and conditions. And as a GPS professional, you know that it is _knowing the error_ that automagically creates accuracy. I would love the GIS/GPS community to think about how to know the error in community mapping. I love this new way of mapping. It creates new opportunities. It involves new ways of thinking. It is not influenced by what GIS people say GIS should be like. Kind regards, with respect, Milo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds 2015-05-07 10:21 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com : Hello Steve, Sorry to rain on the parade yet again but I find this matter of image alignment to be puzzling and concerning. One of the first things I learned when embarking upon GIS/GPS mapping was that accurate georeferencing of all layers, but especially the base layers (imagery in this case) was sacrosanct. If things are not in their correct point in space, what use is that to the end user? Especially in rugged terrain, with difficult access and rapidly changing stream flows, it is important to know where a trail or road really is. Why try to cross a raging torrent when you don't need to? Having untrained users realign the imagery willy-nilly is amazing to me. What faith can anyone have in the new tracings if the earth is literally moving every time a new user opens up the file? Accurate map datums and projections were created for a reason. How is it that, ...the DigitalGlobe 2015-05-03 (DG) images have had minimal georectification.. This is bizarre, this is not GIS, this is merely sketching. Why is such imagery being offered and accepted? I know that this is a major emergency but then all the more need for quality data. However, I am newly arrived, and it seems that most people are content with a world that can be up to 200 m out of whack. I'm not sure if I can contribute much under the circumstances other than this gloomy criticism. Sorry, will try not to dampen the enthusiasm further. Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 06-05-2015 11:59 Wednesday, Steve Bower wrote: Ross - If you haven't already, see the recent threads on data alignment to satellite imagery and imagery alignment, in the archives for May: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2015-May/thread.htmlà Note some links pointed out there by althio: à http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_Imageryà à http://learnosm.org/en/editing/correcting-imagery-offset/à Because the DigitalGlobe 2015-05-03 (DG) images have had minimal georectification (needed mainly for elevation distortion), they may be offset by 100m or more. On one tile (5.5km wide) I saw offsets relative to Bing of 125m to the west and, elsewhere, 85m to the east. The offsets may vary considerable even in nearby areas, especially in steep terrain.à You should align your work with Bing imagery. Thus to digitize from the DG imagery you should first adjust the DG imagery to the Bing imagery, and re-adjust it as you move from place to place. As you noted, adjusting in one area makes it worse in others, so you have to keep re-adjusting as you go. You should be able to compare the Bing and DG imagery to confirm where a feature visible on DG
Re: [HOT] Missing Maps Training Video Suggestions
Hello Suzan, I am very new here and puzzled by some of the processes in place. Not sure if I will even continue, there seems to be a fair bit of turmoil not related to the earthquake. I received one e-mail from someone who said this OSM initiative has only been going 10 years and was still a work in progress! 10 years, and only now someone is starting to put together some training materials? What has been going on? The instructional materials that do exist also seem to be scattered among many sites and documents; I have given up trying to keep track. I went through two introductory videos on the simple editor which was fine and then fired up JOSM which looks quite daunting, even for someone experienced with GIS. I'm still not clear why an emergency response project would need building footprints, especially when it is so labour intensive to create and then correct them. There seem to be some odd priorities, but then I certainly don't know the whole picture. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 07-05-2015 00:30 Thursday, Suzan Reed wrote: Training My major problem with the current training, it's long, boring, and slow. A Quick Start Guide would be perfect for someone like me. A video with this information would be great. I could not go through the training because it went too slow, so I missed some information, but found the process for someone like me who works in Photoshop pretty easy and intuitive, but I'm not a usual newbie. An orientation video for the area being mapped. I don't think many mappers know what buildings in remote areas of Nepal look like, or that villages are spread out over a big area, or that paths just end and do not connect in rural Nepal. A video with still and moving images I believe would be a big help. People could then see buildings are not square, built out of piles of rocks, and are often two stories tall with animals below and people above. Roofs are tin, or packed earth. If mappers could see this I think they would do a better job mapping. The video could also go over other details of the project. I'd be willing to help with this. Mentors I have connected with someone who is my mentor and checks my work. Think it would be great if every newbie could have a mentor, or a group of mentors to submit work to. Correcting other's work We all want to do a good job, but I don't think the training gives the most important information up front, i.e. make buildings the right size and square. I've just deleted and redrawn about 100 buildings that were not square nor did they fit on the image footprint. The mappers probably thought a rough polygon would let people know a building existed in that spot, but that's not what's needed. Same with paths that didn't conform to the image. How to do it right would be so helpful if included in the training up front. I don't think most people have the patience to go through slow training, or my DVD wouldn't have come with a Quick Start Guide! I'm a Newbie, and I recommend newbies be limited to drawing buildings and adding roads and paths. Experts should draw Residential Areas in rural areas and note forests and other features. I've corrected hundreds of buildings and paths. It's a waste of time and energy for the original mapper and the person correcting. We all want to do a good job or we wouldn't be spending hours mapping. Hope this helps. Cheers! Suzan On May 6, 2015, at 11:10 PM, Laura Camellini wrote: Hi all, as I suggested some days ago, I'd like to add these video training (while done) to a moodle course, And maybe be able to synch the moodle course training with the task manager permission to edit maps. Do you think this could help you with your tasks? Regards, LauraC 2015-05-07 3:16 GMT+02:00 Mhairi O'Hara mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org: Dear Hotties, Please see the e-mail from Pete Masters from the Missing Maps project: We are thinking about putting together some video training resources for HOT mapping for newbies. No concrete plans yet, just getting some thoughts together. There's a shared doc here, where we're collecting ideas for the individual modules. Please feel free to add your thoughts and, even better, to encourage newbies to identify where there are most needs for training materials... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mo82sCLLnP30SsgRO1VIpGxezWcQhAQ_HxEpCEPh89o/edit?usp=sharing Cheers, Pete -- Pete Masters Missing Maps Project Coordinator +44 7921 781 518 missingmaps.org @pedrito1414 @theMissingMaps facebook.com/MissingMapsProject -- Mhairi O'Hara Technical Project Manager Email: mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org Indonesian Mobile: +62 822 4701 1475 Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response Economic Development ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___
Re: [HOT] JOSM people validating / mapping in Nepal, please run JOSM's validator before finishing a tile
Hello Dave, This is amazing to see the vast number of invalid tags. This really calls into question the integrity of the database. Do you have much luck getting people to run the validator? I am baffled that the data validation does not take place right at the data entry stage. This is very common in database applications. All the critical fields have validation rules so that the operator can neither skip the critical fields nor enter data that is not applicable to that field. If JOSM, complex as it is, is lacking input data validation, that is a serious failing, in my opinion. For this type of mission, complete and accurate data is critical. You do not have the luxury of time hoping that people will bother with a post entry validation process. I see a discussion about how to label seasonal/intermittent streams but there is obviously no standardized tag for this. How can this be? Who will know that two separate queries will need to be run to discover all intermittent or seasonal streams? Data integrity is fundamental to any GIS/database project, but especially for one supporting a real-time emergency. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 06-05-2015 14:06 Wednesday, Dave Corley wrote: This is especially applicable for the second pass tasks that are going on right now but should be considered for anyone doing any Nepal tasks using JOSM. When you are mapping / validating a tile, please run the validator before you mark the tile as complete. I can promise you, you will find things to fix that will improve the data. Here's a OSMI link showing tagging issues only in the Nepal region http://url.ie/yzu8 There are a lot! There will be many other issues (unconnected ways, unclosed ways etc etc) that are quite quick and easy to fix so please take the extra few mins at the end of a tile to improve pre-existing data. Thanks, Dave aka DaCor ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] [info-hotosm] Reference Project #1030 Nepal Earthquake
Hello Steve, Sorry to rain on the parade yet again but I find this matter of image alignment to be puzzling and concerning. One of the first things I learned when embarking upon GIS/GPS mapping was that accurate georeferencing of all layers, but especially the base layers (imagery in this case) was sacrosanct. If things are not in their correct point in space, what use is that to the end user? Especially in rugged terrain, with difficult access and rapidly changing stream flows, it is important to know where a trail or road really is. Why try to cross a raging torrent when you don't need to? Having untrained users realign the imagery willy-nilly is amazing to me. What faith can anyone have in the new tracings if the earth is literally moving every time a new user opens up the file? Accurate map datums and projections were created for a reason. How is it that, ...the DigitalGlobe 2015-05-03 (DG) images have had minimal georectification.. This is bizarre, this is not GIS, this is merely sketching. Why is such imagery being offered and accepted? I know that this is a major emergency but then all the more need for quality data. However, I am newly arrived, and it seems that most people are content with a world that can be up to 200 m out of whack. I'm not sure if I can contribute much under the circumstances other than this gloomy criticism. Sorry, will try not to dampen the enthusiasm further. Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 06-05-2015 11:59 Wednesday, Steve Bower wrote: Ross - If you haven't already, see the recent threads on data alignment to satellite imagery and imagery alignment, in the archives for May: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2015-May/thread.html Note some links pointed out there by althio:  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_Imagery  http://learnosm.org/en/editing/correcting-imagery-offset/ Because the DigitalGlobe 2015-05-03 (DG) images have had minimal georectification (needed mainly for elevation distortion), they may be offset by 100m or more. On one tile (5.5km wide) I saw offsets relative to Bing of 125m to the west and, elsewhere, 85m to the east. The offsets may vary considerable even in nearby areas, especially in steep terrain. You should align your work with Bing imagery. Thus to digitize from the DG imagery you should first adjust the DG imagery to the Bing imagery, and re-adjust it as you move from place to place. As you noted, adjusting in one area makes it worse in others, so you have to keep re-adjusting as you go. You should be able to compare the Bing and DG imagery to confirm where a feature visible on DG is located on the Bing imagery (if Bing is clear enough). I try to adjust based on buildings, or road intersections/curves (keeping in mind that roads are sometimes relocated), or even less permanent features (rivers generally are not good, they move around to much). It's a time-consuming process, but needed to correctly locate features. It's not essential that everything be within a few meters of its true location, but features should be mapped correctly relative to one-another. The links above provide guidance on how to align imagery to correct locations. It's easy in JOSM with the Imagery Offset tool (on the toolbar). Steve On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Steve Bower sbo...@gmavt.net wrote: I don't think Chad's IDP guidance document (though very helpful) addresses the issue of spatial accuracy of the DG imagery, raised by Ross. I'm going to post that as a separate issue with more detail. On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 4:35 AM, Heather Leson heather.le...@hotosm.org wrote: HI Ross, sorry for my delayed response. It is best if you ask your questions on the main Hot@openstreetmap.org mailing list. Chad provided this guidance document on IDPs http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/Nepal.html#IDP%20Collection%20Guidance Hope this helps Heather On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Ross Taylor r...@byrdtechnology.com wrote: Hi, I am seeing many more IDP sites using DigitlaGlobe imagery vs Bing. I can toggle between the two image sets, but they are significantly nonaligned. I created a landuse=brownfield tagged area which aligns with Bing, but if I mark and tag the individual IDP sites showing up in DigitalGlobe imagery, the brownfield and idp are not going to be aligned. I want to help out as much as possible and would like the data to be correct. Please advise, thanks! Note: I tried to adjust alignment but it fixes one area and creates more offset in other areas. -Ross Sent from mobile ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice
Hello Jean-Guilhem, Sorry for the slow reply. OK, would be reviewing be through the verification process? I believe Pierre sent me instructions for that, I could look through them again. I did join the Skype group at Pierre's suggestion but he said no conversations were scheduled so I signed off. If I get notification of a scheduled conversation, I will sign on. I only turn on Skype when needed. But happy to join in. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 06-05-2015 02:24 Wednesday, Jean-Guilhem Cailton wrote: Hi Spring, As an experienced pilot, you are welcome to help review these potential sites. You've been added a couple of days ago to a Skype group on this subject. But you don't seem to be aware of it. Could you please check your Skype, and maybe restart it if you don't see anything? (You currently appear as connected but away - orange icon). Thanks, Jean-Guilhem Le 06/05/2015 07:41, Springfield Harrison a écrit : Hello Master Cpl. Carriere, OK, glad to hear that. From the list of problems and concerns brought forward on the twitter session earlier, it definitely sounded like accuracy and consistency of the OSM editing might be suspect. Dragging their photos around to force the alignment of different features gives me the willies. What if the next volunteer drags it off in another direction? For me, this is a whole new loose approach to GIS which I have always thought of as highly disciplined and structured. However, if your hardcopy printouts are useful to the field crews, that is good. As a new person looking on from the edges and trying a few edits, the process does look a bit sketchy, but if it works, it works. As a 30+ year helicopter pilot, I did have some concern with the very skimpy helipad instructions. In high-altitude, rugged terrain there is much more to locating helipads than finding a 30 m flat square of ground. Is there any technical oversight by experienced pilots on this task? I assume that there are no current maps for this area, just the OSM edits? I did find some ASM 1950s mapping. Is there nothing newer than that? Thank you, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 05-05-2015 21:20 Tuesday, Denis Carriere wrote: I'm not sure if succesful GIS is a crowd activity. I've asked but heard nothing about the end use of all this activity.à Is it serving the folks on the ground? OSM crowd activity is very successful, speaking from the Canadian Forces DART deployed on the ground. I've printed so far 300+ hardcopy maps all made with 100% OSM data for people deployed in remote locations. @OSM Community: Keep up the great work! It's really making a difference! ~~ Denis, MCpl Carriere Canadian Forces GIS Project Manager OP Renaissance Nepal 2015 Twitter:à @DenisCarriere OSM: DenisCarriere Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice
Hello Michael, Thanks for your feedback, sorry for the slow reply. I understand what you mean by preselection by the crowd but they may well miss a lot of potential sites which the experts will never get to evaluate. Or select a lot of duds which may bog down the verification process. The best way would be to get experts in at the beginning, are they in short supply? I think the preselection is being done on pre-earthquake maps which means that a lot of non-disaster territory is probably being covered unnecessarily. If my assumption is correct, are there earthquake damage map layers that can be used to guide the volunteers to the more critical areas? Being new, perhaps I do not have the whole picture. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring At 06-05-2015 01:33 Wednesday, Michael wrote: Hi Spring, 2015-05-06 7:41 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison stellar...@gmail.com :      As a 30+ year helicopter pilot, I did have some concern with the very skimpy helipad instructions. In high-altitude, rugged terrain there is much more to locating helipads than finding a 30 m flat square of ground. Is there any technical oversight by experienced pilots on this task? I fully agree that the potential sites can not directly be used. But for sure they will be reviewed as given in the task's description After completion, this info will be evaluated by experts..  To me the idea is to speed up the process by finding and marking candidate spots for the experts to evalutes. So save the experts' time by having the crowd to a pre-selection. Michael (user Ohr) ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice
Hello Master Cpl. Carriere, OK, glad to hear that. From the list of problems and concerns brought forward on the twitter session earlier, it definitely sounded like accuracy and consistency of the OSM editing might be suspect. Dragging their photos around to force the alignment of different features gives me the willies. What if the next volunteer drags it off in another direction? For me, this is a whole new loose approach to GIS which I have always thought of as highly disciplined and structured. However, if your hardcopy printouts are useful to the field crews, that is good. As a new person looking on from the edges and trying a few edits, the process does look a bit sketchy, but if it works, it works. As a 30+ year helicopter pilot, I did have some concern with the very skimpy helipad instructions. In high-altitude, rugged terrain there is much more to locating helipads than finding a 30 m flat square of ground. Is there any technical oversight by experienced pilots on this task? I assume that there are no current maps for this area, just the OSM edits? I did find some ASM 1950s mapping. Is there nothing newer than that? Thank you, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison At 05-05-2015 21:20 Tuesday, Denis Carriere wrote: I'm not sure if succesful GIS is a crowd activity. I've asked but heard nothing about the end use of all this activity. Is it serving the folks on the ground? OSM crowd activity is very successful, speaking from the Canadian Forces DART deployed on the ground. I've printed so far 300+ hardcopy maps all made with 100% OSM data for people deployed in remote locations. @OSM Community: Keep up the great work! It's really making a difference! ~~ Denis, MCpl Carriere Canadian Forces GIS Project Manager OP Renaissance Nepal 2015 Twitter: @DenisCarriere OSM: DenisCarriere Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] newbie needs advice
I couldn't find a thing on the IRC, I thought it was something to do with the Intl Red Cross, silly me. Information sources are hugely fragmented. I don't get a sense of leadership, just random action. I'm not sure if succesful GIS is a crowd activity. I've asked but heard nothing about the end use of all this activity. Is it serving the folks on the ground? Cheers . . . . . Spring Samsung Tab 4 On May 5, 2015 2:59 PM, Suzan Reed su...@suzanreed.com wrote: Dear Blake, It would be great if you could answer this on the list as I have many of the same questions. MingyurPema On May 5, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Blake Girardot wrote: I am going to answer some of this via irc. Cheers, Blake On 5/5/2015 5:34 PM, Katja Ulbert wrote: Hi all, I am a newbie coming up with a few questions, It would be great if someone with more knowledge could take the time to answer them. They don´t have to be answered here and now or via mailinglist, I am also on IRC #hot as katjaulbert. I am mapping in task #1018. 1) Paths: I have come across some that are obviously connected but there are small areas where I cant´t follow their course. Same with paths that lead into forests, where they disappear and reappear on the other side. Should I connect them? I don´t think it´s useful to have tiny bits of paths in the map or paths that lead into nowhere. 2) I need advice to distinguish dried waterways from paths. Waterways seem to be much broader and uneven and often accompanied from paths. 3) Tags: I cant´t find some tags that are advised in the task instruction, for example bridge=supension. Are there any presets I forgot to load? 4) Imagery: I use Bing and Mapbox, are there any more sources? Also, is there a way to digitally zoom Mapbox imagery? Sometimes it´s easier to spot things with Mapbox, especially paths, but it stops displaying at some point. Thanks for taking time! Regards Katja|| ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Nepal data validation: overpass script to identify the recent mappers?
Wouldn't it be easier to just create a tool that draws a box/rectangle? That is a common GIS drawing activity. I'm new to this (but not to GIS/GPS mapping) but does this project really need building footprints in every case? Points might suffice initially in the interests of simplicity/expediency; building footprints could be added later for specific cases. The initial point could have attributes as to size, type of building, etc. Cheers . . . . Spring Harrison At 05-05-2015 13:04 Tuesday, kusala nine wrote: I have a python script which will analyse all buildings in a bounding box and output those with a large skew - where the diagonals don't match (within a tolerance). It uses overpass API and will also output changeset/user info. I'll post a link to it tomorrow once I've finished user options. Might be useful to identify tiles where buildings aren't square. Needs overpass and pygeo to get data and work out distances. jon. On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:05 AM, kusala nine kusa...@googlemail.com wrote: I put the latest extract back into a database last night and extracted just the buildings and the number of sides in them - the list below shows total number of buildings and the number of sides in the polygon.. Of the 190k buildings in the current Nepal extract the vast majority have four sides - There are 58 triangular buildings though! and quite a lot with more sides. I am analysing the 4-sided buildings now and measuring the difference in metres between the diagonals - this is probably the best method of determing the skew. If you want a shapefile of the triangular buildings let me know and I can dropbox it. I'll try and get this working in python/overpass wrapper so it can be run as a validation process... jon. total  | #sides  160852 |  4  10940 |  6   6259 |  5   5075 |  8   2404 |  7   1240 | 10   875 |  9   718 | 12   496 | 11   231 | 14   208 | 13   179 | 16   128 | 15    82 | 18    72 | 19    58 |  3 On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:23 PM, kusala nine kusa...@googlemail.com wrote: hi - will do. back to the day job tomorrow but will keep on it. geometrically it's easy to figure out if something's got right angles - it's just the extract from the database. I'll see what I can do and report back. jon. On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Mhairi O'Hara mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org wrote: This is great. We are really looking at somehow incorporating a tiered user system (beginner/intermediate/advanced) into the Tasking Manager, so that we can hopefully do the following: Mapper status: Provide various levels of mapper status (beginner/intermediate/advanced), so that only advanced can validate tiles and perhaps a buddy system can be introduced to guide beginners. Chat room: Provide a channel where users (beginners) can speak to other users (experienced) live to get help on how to do mapping. Something similar to MapCraft (http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/ ) Beginner guidance: Once new mappers are identified, perhaps experienced users can give them view access to watch them map live. This would be the quickest way to teach and learn during an activation, as it would be specific to the project they are working on and enable them to become familiar with identifying features in the satellite imagery. Again, duly noted! Please keep me in the loop if you make any head way on the python wrapper Kusala. Kind regards, Mhairi On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Working better :) Thanks   Pierre De : Julian Haag o...@juhaag.de à: hot@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Lundi 4 mai 2015 9h05 Objet : Re: [HOT] Nepal data validation: overpass script to identify the recent mappers? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1  Hi, there is a . athe the ent of the URL. This is the correct one: http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountry.php?c=Nepal ngt Am 04.05.2015 um 14:54 schrieb Pierre Béland: Thanks Pascal Neis for this again. This includes a RSS feed. No user listed yet on my screen.   Pierre - *De :* amrit karmacharya amrit...@gmail.com *à :* Kusala9 kusa...@googlemail.com *Cc :* hot@openstreetmap.org hot@openstreetmap.org *Envoyé le :* Lundi 4 mai 2015 8h41 *Objet :* Re: [HOT] Nepal data validation: overpass script to identify the recent mappers? This page shows Newest Active OpenStreetMap Contributors for Nepal http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountry.php?c=Nepal. On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Kusala9 kusa...@googlemail.com mailto:kusa...@googlemail.com wrote:     I'm new to overpass but there s a nice python wrapper which will make user counts and geometry calculations easier. I can look at this tonight and will report back. Jon     58683-23001#47     On 4 May 2015, at 02:45, Severin Menard severin.men...@gmail.com mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com wrote:
Re: [HOT] data alignment to satellite imagery
Hello Michael, et al., I have just joined moments ago, background in GIS, GPS mapping, helicopter pilot. I note your comments about misaligned GPS data. Just wondering about the map projections and datum in use in the disaster area. Most recreational GPS receivers are set to WGS 84 which may not line up very well with what is probably a very localized datum for Nepal. I understand from media reports that the earthquake actually caused terrain shifts of up to 3 m which might account for some of the discrepancies seen. I may not be on the right track here but will help further if possible. Thanks, Cheers . . . . . . . . Springfield Harrison, Canada At 03-05-2015 23:56 Sunday, Michael Krämer wrote: Hi, for me the gold standard for image alignment in OSM are gpx traces with high quality. If no traces are available - which likely applies to most of Nepal - Bing is the standard to use. In either case adjust any other imagery to match the alignment of the standard. But now the limitation: Some of the imagery currently in use with HOT shows some difference compared to Bing. But this is not a simple shift. To my limited understanding this comes from the correction applied to the image. Especially in mountains this is difficult - which likely is especially true for the Himalayas. But keep the distances in mind: With high resolution images a shift of let's say 10 m is pretty visible - but should not really matter too much in real live. In any case: Try to align any of your work with Bing. Leave any misaligned data for now. Michael (user Ohr) ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Nepal: Hospital import gone wrong?
Hello Kratzer, Just signed on moments ago, background in GIS, GPS mapping, helicopter pilot. Just curious if there is any metadata attached to the GPS field information as to the map projection and datum in use? Is there any documentation for GPS field workers to refer to? Or is this information just manually placed on the map by eye? Bad data could be worse than none at all. Perhaps I could help with documentation for GPS fieldworkers if there is none in place. Lots of challenges I'm sure, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison, Canada At 04-05-2015 00:03 Monday, Kretzer wrote: Maybe at some point a wrong coordinate system was used for conversion? Like from the .shp to .kll. (that's usually the reason why my GIS imports end up in the wrong place ...) It would be great if these important data could be of use in the end. Gesendet mit der GMX iPhone App Am 04.05.15 um 07:51 schrieb Heather Leson Hello, my contacts advised that they are following up. A quick note that this is a WHO dataset, not OCHA. If any files or notes could reflect that great. If there is any update I will let you know. It might take some time due to timezones and approvals by different UN groups. Thank you again for your work and advocacy. Heather On May 4, 2015 8:15 AM, Heather Leson heatherle...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you. Inquiry sent. HeatherOn May 4, 2015 8:02 AM, Prabhas Pokharel prabhas.pokha...@gmail.com wrote: Heather,2. The dataset was the following https://data.hdx.rwlabs.org/dataset/nepal-health-facilities-cod 1. Megha went through and manually matched up health facilities in the Kathmandu Valley, because KLL has formerly surveyed and created a rigorousdataset in the valley. A majority of the conflicts in the valley weredeleted. Since the second dataset doesn't have names, match up was done bylocation. Please follow up with Megha on the rest. If we get a compatible license, the other route we could go through(instead of re-instanting the changeset) is to do a more rigorous import,after checking that the health facility locations seem legitimate (not inforests, near residences, etc.) and not in conflict with existingfacilities with HOT's help. cheers, Prabhas On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Heather Leson heatherle...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Pierre is sleeping. I would normally ask him and activation. I willask a contact via UN OCHA (offlist) and report back to activation What I need is:1. Confirmation that the changeset link includes the full dataset (thelink below )2. Exact source link for the dataset. I will ask for a license update. Does this sound ok? Heather The file isOn May 4, 2015 7:48 AM, Prabhas Pokharel prabhas.pokha...@gmail.com wrote:A very sad one, but nothing to do about it, unless the copyright holders let us upload the data to OSM without that non-commercial restriction. HOT, we must have contacts at UN OCHA, can we start a conversation toask if they are willing to do it? At the moment, we don't have thebandwidth here at KLL these days to have this conversation. But as I seeit, adding POIs and named places onto the map is pretty important to focuson, in parallel with all of the imagery-based work that we are doing. cheers, Prabhas On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Rafael Avila Coya ravilac...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Prabhas: I wonder if this data can be incorporated to a local or alternativedatabase that can be of use in this situation. About the field papers, I don't see any problem to use this data as aguide of finding those health facilities and correctly geolocate themwhile surveying on the ground. Using the GNS and other place nodes already in the database, it mightbe possible to add some of this nodes to OSM. It might. But in any case, the license is a restriction. A very sad one, but nothing to doabout it, unless the copyright holders let us upload the data to OSMwithout that non-commercial restriction. Cheers, Rafael. On 04/05/15 00:26, Prabhas Pokharel wrote: Thank you all; two main issues here: one that the dataset geolocations are problematic, and two that the license was incompatible. Apologies for incorrectly interpreting the license here in Nepal. As megha said, the reason we attempted this was because the maps that HOTOSM volunteers have helped create via tracing for us is amazingly detailed (in terms of residential areas, roads, pre-quake buildings), but hard to use because of the lack of POIs on the ground. This was an attempt to alleviate
Re: [HOT] Imagery alignment
Thanks Helen, very challenging. Are the underlying maps accurately georeferenced? If so, georeferencing the new imagery should not be too difficult but not likely possible online. Non of these shifts would be linear, especially in areas of such high relief. Are mappers just dragging the imagery around to fit by eye? Are there no GIS shops that could help with this? Not sure if I can help further . . . Cheers . . . . . Spring Harrison Samsung Tab 4 On May 4, 2015 12:38 AM, Helen Tait helen...@gmail.com wrote: This is in reply to a previous question today (sorry I have not worked out how to reply to specific post). Archival imagery (such as Bing) has usually been processed and georeferenced/orthorectified (although to variable degrees depending on the source) prior to publishing. The post earthquake imagery provided by DG will have had minimal such processing undertaken on it as this takes time and effort and obviously DG want to just get the imagery out there for people to use ASAP. Alignment of this imagery to existing map layers will not be a straightforward shift in one direction due to the effect of elevation/terrain and satellite capture angle. My advice for this type of imagery would be to continually adjust the imagery to available/reliable map information as necessary - in one area of the image you may only need to adjust by say 10m to get a decent alignment - other areas may require a 100m shift. For the archival (e.g. Bing) imagery there can still be some alignment issues - this imagery will may have had systematic corrections but no manual input using ground control points (which is required for really accurate orthorectification). ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
