Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

this is a good descrption of crowmapping. 

We have to move from unstructured info and gradually give more signification to 
it. exchanging as we do this week helps progress. 

That's part of the motivation to participate to this humanitarian community and 
response.

cheers all. 
Pierre 

  De : Jonathan Webb 
 À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : Jeudi 30 avril 2015 11h58
 Objet : Re: [HOT] AARRRRGH!
   
  Thanks Nick,
 Glad I pitched in - I nearly deleted my post as an outsider...
 
 I have found and been pointed to (by you & others) a load of useful info - 
there is not necessarily a shortage of info, just that it's in disparate places 
& I think this is the key issue.  In constructing this reply, I have found much 
of what I need to know but each strand isn't quite complete in itself & you 
need to find enough strands.  Ideally all the info would be in one place, in a 
coherent house style but that probably isn't possible.  I could have a go at 
that but I'd need a bit more mapping experience under my belt first.
 
 Re your link - on the whole it is very helpful. First off, I would prefer the 
font to be a tad larger as there is a lot of text & I'm pushing 50 (I saw 
another older respondent as well so I'm not alone) & my eyes aren't what they 
were.
 
 What I haven't found is much about the value judgements in interpreting the 
imagery for disaster purposes. Less of an issue for those with formal 
GIS/remote sensing training probably.  I think I am quite good at interpreting 
aerial imagery, but my experience is English Landscape (character) and 
heritage. This is very helpful: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot/West_African_HOT_Mapping_Tips
 
 To me, it would seem important to know whether a track can take vehicles but I 
do not feel qualified to guess at this - some tips on interpreting rural tracks 
etc might be useful.  This could be a valuable use of a small amount of time 
for someone experienced in this, as it would enable newcomers like me to make a 
more useful contribution.
 
 In general terms, it would be helpful to have a concise "Executive Summary" 
about the aims of HOT - in terms of map quality & accuracy (in metres) and 
maybe some of the "woollier" aspects like whether it is OK to make an informed 
but subjective guess etc.  
 
 I've just seen this
 https://datameet.hackpad.com/Nepal-Earthquake-Mapping-YDjLauUK0Ek
 which addresses a number of the issues I think, in that it is a user-friendly, 
concise guide to resources.  Good work by the authors!
 
 It may be that there is just a lot to learn!  To some extent I thought "I can 
do GIS", I can do this, but in reality cartography is a discipline in its own 
right & it is somewhat presumptious to assume that a layman can do it just 
because they want to help (without any training):  It might be useful to make 
this point, in a friendly way to deter would-be mappers who come in & lock 
squares but don't achieve much.
 
 Hope I haven't waffled on too much - I've been exploring whilst I write this 
and consequently my position has changed a bit.  But newcomers still face the 
task of finding the information strands.
 Happy to help if I can
 Regards
 Jonathan
 
 
  -- 
  Jonathan Webb 
 Freelance GIS Specialist 
 07941 921905 
 http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
 http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis 
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Jonathan Webb]

Thanks Nick,
Glad I pitched in - I nearly deleted my post as an outsider...

I have found and been pointed to (by you & others) a load of useful info 
- there is not necessarily a shortage of info, just that it's in 
disparate places & I think this is the key issue.  In constructing this 
reply, I have found much of what I need to know but each strand isn't 
quite complete in itself & you need to find enough strands.  Ideally all 
the info would be in one place, in a coherent house style but that 
probably isn't possible.  I could have a go at that but I'd need a bit 
more mapping experience under my belt first.


Re your link - on the whole it is very helpful. First off, I would 
prefer the font to be a tad larger as there is a lot of text & I'm 
pushing 50 (I saw another older respondent as well so I'm not alone) & 
my eyes aren't what they were.


What I haven't found is much about the value judgements in interpreting 
the imagery for disaster purposes. Less of an issue for those with 
formal GIS/remote sensing training probably.  I think I am quite good at 
interpreting aerial imagery, but my experience is English Landscape 
(character) and heritage. This is very helpful: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot/West_African_HOT_Mapping_Tips


To me, it would seem important to know whether a track can take vehicles 
but I do not feel qualified to guess at this - some tips on interpreting 
rural tracks etc might be useful.  This could be a valuable use of a 
small amount of time for someone experienced in this, as it would enable 
newcomers like me to make a more useful contribution.


In general terms, it would be helpful to have a concise "Executive 
Summary" about the aims of HOT - in terms of map quality & accuracy (in 
metres) and maybe some of the "woollier" aspects like whether it is OK 
to make an informed but subjective guess etc.


I've just seen this
https://datameet.hackpad.com/Nepal-Earthquake-Mapping-YDjLauUK0Ek
which addresses a number of the issues I think, in that it is a 
user-friendly, concise guide to resources.  Good work by the authors!


It may be that there is just a lot to learn!  To some extent I thought 
"I can do GIS", I can do this, but in reality cartography is a 
discipline in its own right & it is somewhat presumptious to assume that 
a layman can do it just because they want to help (without any 
training):  It might be useful to make this point, in a friendly way to 
deter would-be mappers who come in & lock squares but don't achieve much.


Hope I haven't waffled on too much - I've been exploring whilst I write 
this and consequently my position has changed a bit. But newcomers still 
face the task of finding the information strands.

Happy to help if I can
Regards
Jonathan


--
Jonathan Webb
Freelance GIS Specialist
07941 921905
http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Andrew Patterson]

Hi

As a novice on HOT I would support Severin's suggestion for an "Experienced
Mapper" status for validation.  I have managed to complete about 36 Tasks
to date, and have decided to concentrate on the Malawi flooding Tasks,
although its High Priority status has been rather over taken by recent
events.  However, despite running for over 2 months only about 30% have
been completed.

Of my tasks completed three have been validated, with useful supportive
comments back from the validators (both of whom feature largely in the
ongoing correspondence - which rather says something about the numbers
available for validation).

I have had two other task areas validated - one of which must be been
someone hitting the completed button by mistake since only a couple of
buildings and tracks had been plotted - no comments in box.  The person who
validated the second task for which my comment box indicated some work that
still needed adding, added two buildings and then pressed the completed
button but again left no comment.  This task was their first recorded.

I do believe that the validation process needs to provide feedback - not
just on the technical quality - but also on things like the choice of
highway status made etc.


Andrew



-- 
Andrew Patterson

The information contained in this e-mail and any
files transmitted with it is confidential and intended for the addressee
only.
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Laura Camellini]

Sorry forma wrong forwarding, this proposal was for community consideration
Il 30/apr/2015 12:15, "Laura Camellini"  ha scritto:

> Hi all, sorry for not quoting, just telling you my proposal, i followed
> the events of these days with growing concerning and would like to help you
> in managing this situation with my few tech skills.
> Moodle badge's system connected with course completion was built to be
> shareable, the only thing that nerds to be zone is to connect the badge of
> a BASIC mapping course with the tasking manager editing permissions.
> Then alla the people that want to edit the tasking manager maps attributes
> need to have finished the cpurse with the basic notions to be able not to
> mess around with tiles.
>
> Just my two cents, i really nave few time to work on it bit if you get the
> basic course done i'll enable course completion and badgrs on moodle and
> try to synch it with task manager permissione (only with the help of a dev)
> during my sleeptime :)
>
> Best wishes,
> LauraC
> Il 29/apr/2015 14:45, "Jonathan Webb"  ha
> scritto:
>
>>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the job
>> and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly capable
>> of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>>
>> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance
>> and aims.
>>
>> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
>> trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
>> have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to learn)
>> people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
>> signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?
>>
>> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?
>> In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
>> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
>> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
>> even include it.
>>
>> Jonathan Webb
>>
>> *
>> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I 
>> actually
>> *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>  Jonathan Webb
>> Freelance GIS Specialist
>> 07941 921905
>> http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
>> http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
>>
>> ___
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>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

Thanks Arun
Excellent guide.
I suggest to faciliate reading from Selecting a HOT Mapping Task item 5.
to have when appropriate two colums to facilitate reading.
1. ID2. JOSM
For a specific function, you describe in each column what is specific to an 
editor.  
Pierre 

  De : Arun Ganesh 
 À : Suzan  
Cc : Peter Kohler ; Pierre Béland 
; "hot@openstreetmap.org"  
 Envoyé le : Mercredi 29 avril 2015 16h52
 Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!
   




On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 1:31 AM, Suzan  wrote:

I'm a fast learner and find the slow pace of the beginner's guide frustratingly 
slow. How about a quick start guide at a pace those of us with skills in 
drawing and seeing could learn from. I had no problem picking up the ID tool 
set intuitively, but missed key processes because the directions are so wordy 
and mind numbing, I'd skipped them. 


At the Bangalore mapathon, we put together a quick mapping guide for new 
editors and a validation guide for more experienced mappers. We would just give 
any volunteer interested the link to beginners pad that allowed them to start 
editing without much trouble.
-- 
Arun Ganesh (planemad)

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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Arun Ganesh]

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 1:31 AM, Suzan  wrote:

> I'm a fast learner and find the slow pace of the beginner's guide
> frustratingly slow. How about a quick start guide at a pace those of us
> with skills in drawing and seeing could learn from. I had no problem
> picking up the ID tool set intuitively, but missed key processes because
> the directions are so wordy and mind numbing, I'd skipped them.
>
>
At the Bangalore mapathon, we put together a quick mapping guide
 for new
editors and a validation guide
 for more
experienced mappers. We would just give any volunteer interested the link
to beginners pad that allowed them to start editing without much trouble.

-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Suzan]

I'm a fast learner and find the slow pace of the beginner's guide frustratingly 
slow. How about a quick start guide at a pace those of us with skills in 
drawing and seeing could learn from. I had no problem picking up the ID tool 
set intuitively, but missed key processes because the directions are so wordy 
and mind numbing, I'd skipped them. 


Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse errors.

 Original message From: Peter Kohler 
 Date:04/29/2015  10:00 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: Pierre Béland  Cc: 
hot@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH! 

Dear all,
What are people's thoughts on a set of introductory youtube videos?

Target could be new joins, content; setting up, what to start editing (e.g. 
white tiles), basics of image interpretation.

Probably  a series of must be basic, jargon free and brief.  Starting with 
introduction to humanitarian street map.

Can use missing map events in UK to start process of filming.

Thanks

Peter Kohler 
On 29 Apr 2015 17:34, "Pierre Béland"  wrote:
Kevin

I have a script that collects all the changesets for a BBOX. Below are the 
coordinates of the BBOX with partly Tibet and India.
min_lon=80.6828, min_lat=26.7027, max_lon=87.4739, max_lat=29.8856
regard 
 
Pierre 

De : Kevin Bullock 
À : 'Pierre Béland' ; Andrew Buck ; 
"hot@openstreetmap.org"  
Envoyé le : Mercredi 29 avril 2015 11h53
Objet : RE: [HOT] AAGH!

Pierre – those are incredible stats, would love to see an update when 
convenient. I’ve been following http://osm.townsendjennings.com/nepal/ but your 
information seems to differ. 
 


From: Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:57 AM
To: Andrew Buck; hot@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH!
 
I would add to this,


This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap responses over 
the last few years


- Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits
- Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits
- Ebola  million edits 16 milllions up to now?

- Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday night)
 
These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and 
motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and 
constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts.
 
At the same time, this is what's make our force.
 
What's can help the most in such HOT activations is some groups of experimented 
OSM contributors that take tasks like validation or routing. At the same time, 
the coordination is very important. Workflows and progress should be discussed.
 
Amazing also all the products that came out in the last few days proposed by 
various developpers. Too busy to list them now. Please add these in the wiki.
 
Cheer
 
 
Pierre 

 
De : Andrew Buck 
À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
Envoyé le : Mardi 28 avril 2015 8h18
Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the
information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has
completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in
validating and such.  Whether we want to restrict validating by them
as well is another possibility.  We need to be very careful though to
not discourage them because new users are the people that become
experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we
can get.

Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager,
especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing.
It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it,
but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can
help out.  Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot
checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for
those that know how.  We need to be thinking of these other, non task
manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't interfere
with the workers on the task managers, but also allow for more
efficient work by those who can handle the tools.

- -AndrewBuck



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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Peter Kohler]

Dear all,
What are people's thoughts on a set of introductory youtube videos?

Target could be new joins, content; setting up, what to start editing (e.g.
white tiles), basics of image interpretation.

Probably  a series of must be basic, jargon free and brief.  Starting with
introduction to humanitarian street map.

Can use missing map events in UK to start process of filming.

Thanks

Peter Kohler
 On 29 Apr 2015 17:34, "Pierre Béland"  wrote:

> Kevin
>
> I have a script that collects all the changesets for a BBOX. Below are the
> coordinates of the BBOX with partly Tibet and India.
> min_lon=80.6828, min_lat=26.7027, max_lon=87.4739, max_lat=29.8856
> regard
>
> Pierre
>
>   --
>  *De :* Kevin Bullock 
> *À :* 'Pierre Béland' ; Andrew Buck <
> andrew.r.b...@gmail.com>; "hot@openstreetmap.org" 
> *Envoyé le :* Mercredi 29 avril 2015 11h53
> *Objet :* RE: [HOT] AAGH!
>
>  Pierre – those are incredible stats, would love to see an update when
> convenient. I’ve been following http://osm.townsendjennings.com/nepal/
> but your information seems to differ.
>
>
>
>  *From:* Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:57 AM
> *To:* Andrew Buck; hot@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>
>  I would add to this,
>
>
>   This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap
> responses over the last few years
>
>
>   - Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits
>  - Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits
>  - Ebola  million edits 16 milllions up to now?
>
>   - Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday
> night)
>
>  These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and
> motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and
> constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts.
>
>  At the same time, this is what's make our force.
>
>  What's can help the most in such HOT activations is some groups of
> experimented OSM contributors that take tasks like validation or routing.
> At the same time, the coordination is very important. Workflows and
> progress should be discussed.
>
>  Amazing also all the products that came out in the last few days
> proposed by various developpers. Too busy to list them now. Please add
> these in the wiki.
>
>  Cheer
>
>
>   *Pierre *
>
>
>--
>  *De :* Andrew Buck 
> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
> *Envoyé le :* Mardi 28 avril 2015 8h18
> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the
> information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has
> completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in
> validating and such.  Whether we want to restrict validating by them
> as well is another possibility.  We need to be very careful though to
> not discourage them because new users are the people that become
> experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we
> can get.
>
> Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager,
> especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing.
> It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it,
> but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can
> help out.  Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot
> checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for
> those that know how.  We need to be thinking of these other, non task
> manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't interfere
> with the workers on the task managers, but also allow for more
> efficient work by those who can handle the tools.
>
> - -AndrewBuck
>
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

Kevin
I have a script that collects all the changesets for a BBOX. Below are the 
coordinates of the BBOX with partly Tibet and India.min_lon=80.6828, 
min_lat=26.7027, max_lon=87.4739, max_lat=29.8856
regard 
 
Pierre 

  De : Kevin Bullock 
 À : 'Pierre Béland' ; Andrew Buck 
; "hot@openstreetmap.org"  
 Envoyé le : Mercredi 29 avril 2015 11h53
 Objet : RE: [HOT] AAGH!
   
#yiv8126997952 #yiv8126997952 -- _filtered #yiv8126997952 
{font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8126997952 
{font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8126997952 
{font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8126997952 
{font-family:Garamond;panose-1:2 2 4 4 3 3 1 1 8 3;} _filtered #yiv8126997952 
{panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv8126997952 #yiv8126997952 
p.yiv8126997952MsoNormal, #yiv8126997952 li.yiv8126997952MsoNormal, 
#yiv8126997952 div.yiv8126997952MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8126997952 a:link, 
#yiv8126997952 span.yiv8126997952MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8126997952 a:visited, #yiv8126997952 
span.yiv8126997952MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8126997952 
p.yiv8126997952MsoAcetate, #yiv8126997952 li.yiv8126997952MsoAcetate, 
#yiv8126997952 div.yiv8126997952MsoAcetate 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8126997952 
span.yiv8126997952EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8126997952 
span.yiv8126997952BalloonTextChar {}#yiv8126997952 .yiv8126997952MsoChpDefault 
{font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8126997952 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 
1.0in;}#yiv8126997952 div.yiv8126997952WordSection1 {}#yiv8126997952 Pierre – 
those are incredible stats, would love to see an update when convenient. I’ve 
been followinghttp://osm.townsendjennings.com/nepal/ but your information seems 
to differ.    

From: Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:57 AM
To: Andrew Buck; hot@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH!    I would add to this, 

 This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap responses over 
the last few years 

 - Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits - Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits - Ebola  
million edits 16 milllions up to now?

 - Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday night)  
  These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and 
motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and 
constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts.    At the same 
time, this is what's make our force.    What's can help the most in such HOT 
activations is some groups of experimented OSM contributors that take tasks 
like validation or routing. At the same time, the coordination is very 
important. Workflows and progress should be discussed.    Amazing also all the 
products that came out in the last few days proposed by various developpers. 
Too busy to list them now. Please add these in the wiki.    Cheer     
Pierre

    De : Andrew Buck 
À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
Envoyé le : Mardi 28 avril 2015 8h18
Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH! 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the
information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has
completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in
validating and such.  Whether we want to restrict validating by them
as well is another possibility.  We need to be very careful though to
not discourage them because new users are the people that become
experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we
can get.

Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager,
especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing.
It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it,
but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can
help out.  Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot
checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for
those that know how.  We need to be thinking of these other, non task
manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't interfere
with the workers on the task managers, but also allow for more
efficient work by those who can handle the tools.

- -AndrewBuck 

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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Sam]

i switched to iD editor which shows the tile outlined so that's good for
now. but will check your info and feedback once i'm done with this tile.
thanks :)
ᐧ

On 29 April 2015 at 18:09, Nick Allen  wrote:

> Sam,
>
> I don't know how current it is but there is a section here
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager
>
> About potlatch and the tasking manager. If you feedback to me or the list
> about its usefulness I'll try to get it updated.
>
> Nick
>
> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>
> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
> On 29 Apr 2015 16:45, "Sam"  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Also a newbie but with many years experience in digital maps so trying to
>> learn on the fly but agree with Jon on disparate nature of info and am
>> happy to help with that. For now there is one thing I can't find and maybe
>> someone can help me - some info on using plotlatch with the task manager,
>> for example i can't figure out how to see if i'm still in my own tile
>> except for a visual check which is hard on busy tiles. is there a way to
>> check tile bounding box coordinates in the task manager??
>>
>> many thanks!!
>>
>> sam
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On 29 April 2015 at 17:16, Brad Neuhauser 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Filipe, those are good general references. There are Nepal-specific
>>> tracing and tagging tips on
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide,
>>> especially see the Common Features and Tagging sections.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Brad
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 8:27 AM, Filipe Santana Lopes <
>>> santana.gis.consult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hey Jonathan,

 Some more information you have on the wiki page of openstreetmap:

 How to tag highways (roads, paths, etc):
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

 How to tag waterways:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway

 How to tag buldings:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building

 Give only information in, of you are certain about.

 When you are saving the information, tell what you have done, and what
 is still missing mapping in that field.

 Best regards,
 Filipe Santana Lopes

 » Cell  +351 918426834
 » LinkedIn (pt.linkedin.com/pub/filipe-santana-lopes/11/627/283)
 » Student in Masters in Science and Geographic Information Systems (
 g2012...@isegi.unl.pt|www.isegi.unl.pt)
 » Member of International Association of Emergency Managers (
 www.iaem.com)


 2015-04-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Nick Allen :

> Jonathan,
>
> Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.
>
> Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  &
> could you give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to 
> make
> it useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
> site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.
>
> Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us
> are aware of the need and need feedback on the how.
>
> Nick
>
> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>
> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk
> )
> On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:
>
>>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the
>> job and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly
>> capable of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>>
>> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of
>> guidance and aims.
>>
>> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have
>> been trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and 
>> if
>> I have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to
>> learn) people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely
>> the signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be 
>> unmissable?
>>
>> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping
>> ?  In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
>> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
>> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether 
>> to
>> even include it.
>>
>> Jonathan Webb
>>
>> *
>> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I 
>> actually
>> *>* couldn't find one, pleas

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Nick Allen]

Sam,

I don't know how current it is but there is a section here

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager

About potlatch and the tasking manager. If you feedback to me or the list
about its usefulness I'll try to get it updated.

Nick

Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy

Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
On 29 Apr 2015 16:45, "Sam"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Also a newbie but with many years experience in digital maps so trying to
> learn on the fly but agree with Jon on disparate nature of info and am
> happy to help with that. For now there is one thing I can't find and maybe
> someone can help me - some info on using plotlatch with the task manager,
> for example i can't figure out how to see if i'm still in my own tile
> except for a visual check which is hard on busy tiles. is there a way to
> check tile bounding box coordinates in the task manager??
>
> many thanks!!
>
> sam
> ᐧ
>
> On 29 April 2015 at 17:16, Brad Neuhauser 
> wrote:
>
>> Filipe, those are good general references. There are Nepal-specific
>> tracing and tagging tips on
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide,
>> especially see the Common Features and Tagging sections.
>>
>> Cheers, Brad
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 8:27 AM, Filipe Santana Lopes <
>> santana.gis.consult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Jonathan,
>>>
>>> Some more information you have on the wiki page of openstreetmap:
>>>
>>> How to tag highways (roads, paths, etc):
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
>>>
>>> How to tag waterways:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
>>>
>>> How to tag buldings:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building
>>>
>>> Give only information in, of you are certain about.
>>>
>>> When you are saving the information, tell what you have done, and what
>>> is still missing mapping in that field.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Filipe Santana Lopes
>>>
>>> » Cell  +351 918426834
>>> » LinkedIn (pt.linkedin.com/pub/filipe-santana-lopes/11/627/283)
>>> » Student in Masters in Science and Geographic Information Systems (
>>> g2012...@isegi.unl.pt|www.isegi.unl.pt)
>>> » Member of International Association of Emergency Managers (
>>> www.iaem.com)
>>>
>>>
>>> 2015-04-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Nick Allen :
>>>
 Jonathan,

 Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.

 Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  &
 could you give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to make
 it useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
 site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.

 Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us
 are aware of the need and need feedback on the how.

 Nick

 Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy

 Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
 http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
 On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:

>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the
> job and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly
> capable of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>
> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of
> guidance and aims.
>
> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
> trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
> have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to 
> learn)
> people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
> signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?
>
> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping
> ?  In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
> even include it.
>
> Jonathan Webb
>
> *
> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I 
> actually
> *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*
>
>
>
>
> --
>  Jonathan Webb
> Freelance GIS Specialist
> 07941 921905
> http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
> http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listi

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Brad Neuhauser]

I just found that too, but I don't see the "link to .osm file" it mentions.
Is that from an older version of the Tasking Manager, or is it still
available somehow?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager#Adding_the_grid_square_to_Potlatch

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Nick Allen 
wrote:

> Sam,
>
> I don't know how current it is but there is a section here
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager
>
> About potlatch and the tasking manager. If you feedback to me or the list
> about its usefulness I'll try to get it updated.
>
> Nick
>
> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>
> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
> On 29 Apr 2015 16:45, "Sam"  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Also a newbie but with many years experience in digital maps so trying to
>> learn on the fly but agree with Jon on disparate nature of info and am
>> happy to help with that. For now there is one thing I can't find and maybe
>> someone can help me - some info on using plotlatch with the task manager,
>> for example i can't figure out how to see if i'm still in my own tile
>> except for a visual check which is hard on busy tiles. is there a way to
>> check tile bounding box coordinates in the task manager??
>>
>> many thanks!!
>>
>> sam
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On 29 April 2015 at 17:16, Brad Neuhauser 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Filipe, those are good general references. There are Nepal-specific
>>> tracing and tagging tips on
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide,
>>> especially see the Common Features and Tagging sections.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Brad
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 8:27 AM, Filipe Santana Lopes <
>>> santana.gis.consult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hey Jonathan,

 Some more information you have on the wiki page of openstreetmap:

 How to tag highways (roads, paths, etc):
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

 How to tag waterways:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway

 How to tag buldings:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building

 Give only information in, of you are certain about.

 When you are saving the information, tell what you have done, and what
 is still missing mapping in that field.

 Best regards,
 Filipe Santana Lopes

 » Cell  +351 918426834
 » LinkedIn (pt.linkedin.com/pub/filipe-santana-lopes/11/627/283)
 » Student in Masters in Science and Geographic Information Systems (
 g2012...@isegi.unl.pt|www.isegi.unl.pt)
 » Member of International Association of Emergency Managers (
 www.iaem.com)


 2015-04-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Nick Allen :

> Jonathan,
>
> Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.
>
> Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  &
> could you give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to 
> make
> it useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
> site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.
>
> Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us
> are aware of the need and need feedback on the how.
>
> Nick
>
> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>
> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk
> )
> On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:
>
>>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the
>> job and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly
>> capable of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>>
>> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of
>> guidance and aims.
>>
>> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have
>> been trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and 
>> if
>> I have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to
>> learn) people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely
>> the signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be 
>> unmissable?
>>
>> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping
>> ?  In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
>> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
>> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether 
>> to
>> even include it.
>>
>> Jonathan Webb
>>
>> *
>> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>> *>* disasters, it m

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Kevin Bullock]

Pierre – those are incredible stats, would love to see an update when 
convenient. I’ve been following http://osm.townsendjennings.com/nepal/ but your 
information seems to differ.

From: Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:57 AM
To: Andrew Buck; hot@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH!

I would add to this,


This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap responses over 
the last few years


- Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits
- Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits
- Ebola  million edits 16 milllions up to now?

- Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday night)

These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and 
motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and 
constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts.

At the same time, this is what's make our force.

What's can help the most in such HOT activations is some groups of experimented 
OSM contributors that take tasks like validation or routing. At the same time, 
the coordination is very important. Workflows and progress should be discussed.

Amazing also all the products that came out in the last few days proposed by 
various developpers. Too busy to list them now. Please add these in the wiki.

Cheer


Pierre



De : Andrew Buck mailto:andrew.r.b...@gmail.com>>
À : hot@openstreetmap.org<mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
Envoyé le : Mardi 28 avril 2015 8h18
Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the
information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has
completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in
validating and such.  Whether we want to restrict validating by them
as well is another possibility.  We need to be very careful though to
not discourage them because new users are the people that become
experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we
can get.

Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager,
especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing.
It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it,
but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can
help out.  Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot
checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for
those that know how.  We need to be thinking of these other, non task
manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't interfere
with the workers on the task managers, but also allow for more
efficient work by those who can handle the tools.

- -AndrewBuck
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Sam]

Hi,

Also a newbie but with many years experience in digital maps so trying to
learn on the fly but agree with Jon on disparate nature of info and am
happy to help with that. For now there is one thing I can't find and maybe
someone can help me - some info on using plotlatch with the task manager,
for example i can't figure out how to see if i'm still in my own tile
except for a visual check which is hard on busy tiles. is there a way to
check tile bounding box coordinates in the task manager??

many thanks!!

sam
ᐧ

On 29 April 2015 at 17:16, Brad Neuhauser  wrote:

> Filipe, those are good general references. There are Nepal-specific
> tracing and tagging tips on
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide, especially
> see the Common Features and Tagging sections.
>
> Cheers, Brad
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 8:27 AM, Filipe Santana Lopes <
> santana.gis.consult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Jonathan,
>>
>> Some more information you have on the wiki page of openstreetmap:
>>
>> How to tag highways (roads, paths, etc):
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
>>
>> How to tag waterways:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
>>
>> How to tag buldings:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building
>>
>> Give only information in, of you are certain about.
>>
>> When you are saving the information, tell what you have done, and what is
>> still missing mapping in that field.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Filipe Santana Lopes
>>
>> » Cell  +351 918426834
>> » LinkedIn (pt.linkedin.com/pub/filipe-santana-lopes/11/627/283)
>> » Student in Masters in Science and Geographic Information Systems (
>> g2012...@isegi.unl.pt|www.isegi.unl.pt)
>> » Member of International Association of Emergency Managers (www.iaem.com
>> )
>>
>>
>> 2015-04-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Nick Allen :
>>
>>> Jonathan,
>>>
>>> Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.
>>>
>>> Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  & could
>>> you give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to make it
>>> useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
>>> site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.
>>>
>>> Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us
>>> are aware of the need and need feedback on the how.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>>>
>>> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
>>> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
>>> On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:
>>>
  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the
 job and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly
 capable of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:

 As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance
 and aims.

 I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
 trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
 have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to learn)
 people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
 signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?

 Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?
 In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
 feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
 imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
 even include it.

 Jonathan Webb

 *
 >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
 *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I 
 actually
 *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*




 --
  Jonathan Webb
 Freelance GIS Specialist
 07941 921905
 http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
 http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis

 ___
 HOT mailing list
 HOT@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Brad Neuhauser]

Filipe, those are good general references. There are Nepal-specific tracing
and tagging tips on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide, especially
see the Common Features and Tagging sections.

Cheers, Brad

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 8:27 AM, Filipe Santana Lopes <
santana.gis.consult...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Jonathan,
>
> Some more information you have on the wiki page of openstreetmap:
>
> How to tag highways (roads, paths, etc):
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
>
> How to tag waterways:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
>
> How to tag buldings:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building
>
> Give only information in, of you are certain about.
>
> When you are saving the information, tell what you have done, and what is
> still missing mapping in that field.
>
> Best regards,
> Filipe Santana Lopes
>
> » Cell  +351 918426834
> » LinkedIn (pt.linkedin.com/pub/filipe-santana-lopes/11/627/283)
> » Student in Masters in Science and Geographic Information Systems (
> g2012...@isegi.unl.pt|www.isegi.unl.pt)
> » Member of International Association of Emergency Managers (www.iaem.com)
>
>
> 2015-04-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Nick Allen :
>
>> Jonathan,
>>
>> Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.
>>
>> Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  & could
>> you give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to make it
>> useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
>> site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.
>>
>> Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us are
>> aware of the need and need feedback on the how.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>>
>> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
>> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
>> On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:
>>
>>>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the job
>>> and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly capable
>>> of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>>>
>>> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance
>>> and aims.
>>>
>>> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
>>> trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
>>> have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to learn)
>>> people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
>>> signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?
>>>
>>> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?
>>> In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
>>> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
>>> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
>>> even include it.
>>>
>>> Jonathan Webb
>>>
>>> *
>>> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>>> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I 
>>> actually
>>> *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>  Jonathan Webb
>>> Freelance GIS Specialist
>>> 07941 921905
>>> http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
>>> http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
>>>
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Charlotte Wolter]

Jonathan,

Emergency mapping is by its nature a bit chaotic. We are working
to clarify the issues you raised and many others.
Please use the Tasking Master (http://tasks.hotosm.org) to find
areas that need mapping.
And don't worry if your work may not be dead accurate. Humanitarian
organizations assure us that the maps are valuable to them, and that's the
bottom line.

Best wishes,

Charlotte Wolter


At 05:40 AM 4/29/2015, you wrote:



I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the 
job and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am 
perfectly capable of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process 
is not clear:
As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of 
guidance and aims.
I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have 
been trying to find out what to do & how to do it. I am not stupid 
and if I have missed a link to instructions, then how many other 
(willing to learn) people have? As part of the strategy to maintain 
quality, surely the signposts to learning should be given great 
prominence & be unmissable?
Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping 
? In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out 
what a feature's properties are. Also, for example, how to interpret 
from poor imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles 
etc, or whether to even include it.


Jonathan Webb

*
> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
> couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO


--
Jonathan Webb
Freelance GIS Specialist
07941 921905
http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
___ HOT mailing list 
HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Filipe Santana Lopes]

Hey Jonathan,

Some more information you have on the wiki page of openstreetmap:

How to tag highways (roads, paths, etc):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

How to tag waterways:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway

How to tag buldings:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building

Give only information in, of you are certain about.

When you are saving the information, tell what you have done, and what is
still missing mapping in that field.

Best regards,
Filipe Santana Lopes

» Cell  +351 918426834
» LinkedIn (pt.linkedin.com/pub/filipe-santana-lopes/11/627/283)
» Student in Masters in Science and Geographic Information Systems (
g2012...@isegi.unl.pt|www.isegi.unl.pt)
» Member of International Association of Emergency Managers (www.iaem.com)


2015-04-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Nick Allen :

> Jonathan,
>
> Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.
>
> Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  & could
> you give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to make it
> useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
> site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.
>
> Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us are
> aware of the need and need feedback on the how.
>
> Nick
>
> Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
>
> Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
> http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
> On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:
>
>>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the job
>> and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly capable
>> of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>>
>> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance
>> and aims.
>>
>> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
>> trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
>> have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to learn)
>> people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
>> signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?
>>
>> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?
>> In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
>> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
>> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
>> even include it.
>>
>> Jonathan Webb
>>
>> *
>> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I 
>> actually
>> *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>  Jonathan Webb
>> Freelance GIS Specialist
>> 07941 921905
>> http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
>> http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
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HOT@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Josh Weiland]

Hi,

I am in a similar position (GIS professional, etc), though I started
playing with HOT a few months ago, so have some lead time to get ready.

I agree that getting all the tutorials in an obvious place is needed, it
took a long time to figure out what I needed to read.

But I found that more necessary for a particular project was to read all
the emails that had bounced back and forth (though they may be less useful
to those who are not as comfortable reading pages of English). If there
were a way to mark the relevant emails and have a link to them in the
instructions, I think that would be useful to someone like me.

Josh

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015, 8:45 AM Jonathan Webb  wrote:

>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the job
> and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly capable
> of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>
> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance
> and aims.
>
> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
> trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
> have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to learn)
> people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
> signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?
>
> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?  In
> an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
> even include it.
>
> Jonathan Webb
>
> *
> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
> *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*
>
>
>
>
> --
>  Jonathan Webb
> Freelance GIS Specialist
> 07941 921905
> http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
> http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
>  ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Nick Allen]

Jonathan,

Thank you for the feedback which is exactly what we need.

Have you looked at http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/  & could you
give some feedback on it - I am one of the people who try to make it
useful. Feedback can be given by clicking on the pencil symbol on the
site,  sending an email to me,  or in a number of other ways.

Also,  where and how would you expect links to resources - many of us are
aware of the need and need feedback on the how.

Nick

Volunteer 'Tallguy' for
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy

Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasu...@6thswanleyscouts.org.uk)
On 29 Apr 2015 13:45, "Jonathan Webb"  wrote:

>  I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the job
> and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly capable
> of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:
>
> As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance
> and aims.
>
> I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been
> trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I
> have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to learn)
> people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely the
> signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?
>
> Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?  In
> an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a
> feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor
> imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether to
> even include it.
>
> Jonathan Webb
>
> *
> >* As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
> *>* disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
> *>* couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO*
>
>
>
>
> --
>  Jonathan Webb
> Freelance GIS Specialist
> 07941 921905
> http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
> http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
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HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

[HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Jonathan Webb]

I am one of the newcomers. I am not a GIS scientist & learnt on the job 
and am relatively lightweight, however I know that I am perfectly 
capable of making a contribution but the (HOT)OSM process is not clear:


As is mentioned in several previous posts*, there is a lack of guidance 
and aims.


I have spent most of this morning not contributing because I have been 
trying to find out what to do & how to do it.  I am not stupid and if I 
have missed a link to instructions, then  how many other (willing to 
learn) people have?  As part of the strategy to maintain quality, surely 
the signposts to learning should be given great prominence & be unmissable?


Are the aims of disaster mapping different to those of other mapping ?  
In an non-emergency one can spend some time trying to work out what a 
feature's properties are.  Also, for example, how to interpret from poor 
imagery say a path or track is it suitable for vehicles etc, or whether 
to even include it.


Jonathan Webb

*

/  As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during

/>/  disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
/>/  couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) CLKAO/




--
Jonathan Webb
Freelance GIS Specialist
07941 921905
http://www.jwebbgis.co.uk
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jwebbgis
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Om G]

Ralph,

I believe that you offered the solution within your message.

Can we make it explicit that "New" volunteers are to ONLY work on the White 
Tiles ?

I believe most volunteers are capable of following this request, and do have 
the best intentions with their involvement.

It would be onerous to create a huge intake process and train people to a level 
of proficiency in the middle of a crisis.

But extra hands do make things easier.

So, without an achievement rank that is tied to access, we can ask that the 
White Tiles are the only ones new volunteers edit. I think it would also help 
to mention that the leadership will identify and promote individuals who 
demonstrate proficiency as the project continues.

Om
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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Stacey Maples]

Yes, this is EXACTLY what we need more of. For every feature type being 
requested for major activations, there should be THIS type of specific 
guidance. Thanks Chad. I've added it to my page: 
http://stanfordgeospatialcenter.github.io/Map4Nepal_Resources/ 





In F,L&T, 
Stace Maples 
Geospatial Manager 
Stanford Geospatial Center 
@mapninja 
staceymaples@G+ 

Skype: stacey.maples 

214.641.0920 

Find GeoData: https://earthworks.stanford.edu 

Get GeoHelp: https://gis.stanford.edu/ 




"I have a map of the United States... actual size. 
It says, "Scale: 1 mile = 1 mile." 
I spent last summer folding it." 
-Steven Wright- 
- Original Message -

From: "Chad Blevins"  
To: "Stace Maples"  
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:54:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH! 

Hi Stacy, 

The lack of guidance does lead to poor quality data. Do you have any feedback 
on this guide for identifying IDPs in Kathmandu ? I tried to keep is short 
enough so people would read it and informative enough so everyone knows why 
they are doing this. 

Thank you, 
Chad 

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Stacey Maples < stacemap...@stanford.edu > 
wrote: 



Joining this megathread with some feedback from trainings I'm running: 

1. Peole area eager to do things "the right way" the problem is that once 
you've completed the Mapgive style training and selected a specific job to work 
on, there is VERY LITTLE TO NO GUIDANCE on what is the "right way" to digitize 
buildings, Residential areas, roads and paths for specific tasks. 

2. Project Descriptions and Instructions should include the stakeholder's end 
use (what are the building footprints to be used for? Why is delineating 
residential areas important?, etc...), so people understand what the use of 
what they are creating is. I'm not even sure what the data is being used for as 
I am doing training, so my stock answer is "buildings are not for cadastral 
purposes, they don't need to be perfect. They are for counts, for population 
estimates and for prioritization and assessment." It would be helpful if 
someone with more knowledge of the end use could provide real insight into HOW 
the data is actually being operationalized. That kind of feedback can drive 
better data creation. 

3. Images of region and job specific examples of buildings, resid areas and 
roads/paths need to be part of the Description/Instructions. An excellent 
example of how effective this can be is this recent job: 
http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1010 

4. If you have a complaint about how something is being done, Don't spend 10 
minutes creating a rant email. Spend 30 creating a tutorial for how to do it 
right. People want to help, they want to know how to help, they want to know 
how to help in the best way possible. Help them help. 

I'm doing a training in 20 minutes (did one last night for 20+ Nepali students 
here at Stanford). When I'm done, I will work on screenshots and writing up 
examples of good work on Nepal Roads, Buildings and residential areas. If 
someone can send me links to examples in OSM, or provide clarification on 
stakeholder needs and uses of these layers to help guide me in that tutorial, 
that would be great. 




In F,L&T, 
Stace Maples 
Geospatial Manager 
Stanford Geospatial Center 
@mapninja 
staceymaples@G+ 

Skype: stacey.maples 

214.641.0920 

Find GeoData: https://earthworks.stanford.edu 

Get GeoHelp: https://gis.stanford.edu/ 




"I have a map of the United States... actual size. 
It says, "Scale: 1 mile = 1 mile." 
I spent last summer folding it." 
-Steven Wright- 

From: "Pierre Béland" < pierz...@yahoo.fr > 
To: "Andrew Buck" < andrew.r.b...@gmail.com >, hot@openstreetmap.org 
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 6:57:10 AM 
Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH! 

I would add to this, 

This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap responses over 
the last few years 

- Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits 
- Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits 
- Ebola million edits 16 milllions up to now? 
- Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday night) 

These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and 
motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and 
constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts. 

At the same time, this is what's make our force. 

What's can help the most in such HOT activations is some groups of experimented 
OSM contributors that take tasks like validation or routing. At the same time, 
the coordination is very important. Workflows and progress should be discussed. 

Amazing also all the products that came out in the last few days proposed by 
various developpers. Too busy to list them now. Please add these in the wiki. 

Cheer 


Pierre 


De : Andrew 

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Stacey Maples]

Joining this megathread with some feedback from trainings I'm running: 

1. Peole area eager to do things "the right way" the problem is that once 
you've completed the Mapgive style training and selected a specific job to work 
on, there is VERY LITTLE TO NO GUIDANCE on what is the "right way" to digitize 
buildings, Residential areas, roads and paths for specific tasks. 

2. Project Descriptions and Instructions should include the stakeholder's end 
use (what are the building footprints to be used for? Why is delineating 
residential areas important?, etc...), so people understand what the use of 
what they are creating is. I'm not even sure what the data is being used for as 
I am doing training, so my stock answer is "buildings are not for cadastral 
purposes, they don't need to be perfect. They are for counts, for population 
estimates and for prioritization and assessment." It would be helpful if 
someone with more knowledge of the end use could provide real insight into HOW 
the data is actually being operationalized. That kind of feedback can drive 
better data creation. 

3. Images of region and job specific examples of buildings, resid areas and 
roads/paths need to be part of the Description/Instructions. An excellent 
example of how effective this can be is this recent job: 
http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1010 

4. If you have a complaint about how something is being done, Don't spend 10 
minutes creating a rant email. Spend 30 creating a tutorial for how to do it 
right. People want to help, they want to know how to help, they want to know 
how to help in the best way possible. Help them help. 

I'm doing a training in 20 minutes (did one last night for 20+ Nepali students 
here at Stanford). When I'm done, I will work on screenshots and writing up 
examples of good work on Nepal Roads, Buildings and residential areas. If 
someone can send me links to examples in OSM, or provide clarification on 
stakeholder needs and uses of these layers to help guide me in that tutorial, 
that would be great. 




In F,L&T, 
Stace Maples 
Geospatial Manager 
Stanford Geospatial Center 
@mapninja 
staceymaples@G+ 

Skype: stacey.maples 

214.641.0920 

Find GeoData: https://earthworks.stanford.edu 

Get GeoHelp: https://gis.stanford.edu/ 




"I have a map of the United States... actual size. 
It says, "Scale: 1 mile = 1 mile." 
I spent last summer folding it." 
-Steven Wright- 
- Original Message -

From: "Pierre Béland"  
To: "Andrew Buck" , hot@openstreetmap.org 
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 6:57:10 AM 
Subject: Re: [HOT] AAGH! 

I would add to this, 

This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap responses over 
the last few years 

- Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits 
- Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits 
- Ebola million edits 16 milllions up to now? 
- Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday night) 

These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and 
motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and 
constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts. 

At the same time, this is what's make our force. 

What's can help the most in such HOT activations is some groups of experimented 
OSM contributors that take tasks like validation or routing. At the same time, 
the coordination is very important. Workflows and progress should be discussed. 

Amazing also all the products that came out in the last few days proposed by 
various developpers. Too busy to list them now. Please add these in the wiki. 

Cheer 


Pierre 


De : Andrew Buck  
À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
Envoyé le : Mardi 28 avril 2015 8h18 
Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH! 

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- 
Hash: SHA1 

I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the 
information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has 
completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in 
validating and such. Whether we want to restrict validating by them 
as well is another possibility. We need to be very careful though to 
not discourage them because new users are the people that become 
experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we 
can get. 

Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager, 
especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing. 
It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it, 
but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can 
help out. Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot 
checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for 
those that know how. We need to be thinking of these other, non task 
manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't i

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

I would add to this,
This is the ransom of the success we had with the OpenStreetMap responses over 
the last few years
- Haiti 2010 1.5 million edits- Haiyan 2013 4.5 million edits- Ebola  million 
edits 16 milllions up to now?
- Nepal 2015, 1.5 million edits in three days (my last count yesterday night)
These HOT activations are quite a labotary, both very frustrating and 
motivating. We grow rapidly, interconnect with more organizations and 
constantly have to revise our workflows, adapt to new contexts.
At the same time, this is what's make our force.
What's can help the most in such HOT activations is some groups of experimented 
OSM contributors that take tasks like validation or routing. At the same time, 
the coordination is very important. Workflows and progress should be discussed.
Amazing also all the products that came out in the last few days proposed by 
various developpers. Too busy to list them now. Please add these in the wiki.

Cheer

 
Pierre 

  De : Andrew Buck 
 À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : Mardi 28 avril 2015 8h18
 Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!
   
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the
information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has
completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in
validating and such.  Whether we want to restrict validating by them
as well is another possibility.  We need to be very careful though to
not discourage them because new users are the people that become
experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we
can get.

Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager,
especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing.
 It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it,
but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can
help out.  Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot
checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for
those that know how.  We need to be thinking of these other, non task
manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't interfere
with the workers on the task managers, but also allow for more
efficient work by those who can handle the tools.

- -AndrewBuck

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Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Andrew Buck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I think this is a good idea, a sort of 'tiered' priveledge system.
New users can only map new tiles, then after completing 5 tiles or so
they can move on to validating, etc.  We could also look at data such
as how many changesets the user has in total (maybe they are new to
the TM but have thousands of edits on OSM).  There is also how long
ago they registered on OSM, and so on.  We could easily develop some
kind of a 'experience score' based on these criteria, and then allow
that to unlock the more experienced TM functionality.

None of this though detracts from what myself and Pierre are saying
about better validation in general, not just in the TM but using other
tools as well.

- -AndrewBuck

On 04/28/2015 05:04 AM, Severin Menard wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create
> an "experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to
> have access to the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any
> other mapper to this status, because she/he knowsher/him and trust
> her/his skills. The rest of the mappers (supposedly beginners)
> could map only the non validated task (as they should supposedly
> do). Thoughts?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Severin
> 
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao 
> wrote:
> 
>> Fellow mappers,
>> 
>> Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is
>> a critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is
>> what makes OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating
>> newbies with better community support or technical improvement to
>> make tools more fool-proof, and figure out under what
>> circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain from
>> contributing.
>> 
>> Heather already started drafting training support.  When we
>> circulate the tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized
>> tutorial and a link to local community's group for newbies to
>> find help.  People also wanted to create screencast for specific
>> tasks.
>> 
>> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during 
>> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I
>> actually couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's
>> already one) for some common critics, so people won't be scared
>> away because they are to participate in a project others
>> criticize:
>> 
>> - Are the maps actually being used? - If this is used in critical
>> mission, what happens when it's wrong or incomplete? - What's the
>> point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?
>> 
>> Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our
>> community switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you
>> shouldn't do it" to "People's life are at stake because the maps
>> are in actual use, you shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do
>> need to tackle the issue seriously to make HOT even more
>> awesome.
>> 
>> Best, clkao
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at
>>> the HOT Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps.
>>> If it is of interest to any of you, please find me in DC or
>>> drop me a line...
>>> 
>>> Pete
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people
>>>> improving is great. I know many of us started during an
>>>> emergency.
>>>> 
>>>> For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I
>>>> know I was firm last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I
>>>> really think you are right that we need to improve new mapper
>>>> onboarding during emergencies. So, I started another email
>>>> chain about training help.
>>>> 
>>>> Step by step,
>>>> 
>>>> heather
>>>> 
>>>> Heather Leson heatherle...@gmail.com Twitter: HeatherLeson 
>>>> Blog: textontechs.com
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>> 
>>>>> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak.
>>>>> With a long Activation, we saw contributors that did
>>>>> improve rapidly and did a great job. They were in the top
>>>>> list of contributors.
>&

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Severin Menard]

Yes

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:15 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> On the wiki page it refers to *"JOSM Style 'HOT-OSM-Validation'"* does
> this refer to the HDM style?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 28 April 2015 at 06:44, Severin Menard 
> wrote:
>
>> NIck and I made this wikipage about it:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data
>>
>> I should actually update it a bit. In CAR for exemple, everytime a job
>> and task validation is done (the latter may not be finished, depending on
>> the motivation of mappers), I unpublish the job, download the whole area
>> and make a first quick check to identify areas where tasks were not
>> correctly done. If it took a long time to fix, I unvalidate these tasks and
>> republish the job.
>> Once everything is quite OK, I repeat the same process and
>> - clean everything with the validator
>> - add mssing objects
>> - improve the data consistency (especially the road network)
>> - improve the tag consistency (again, especially the road network,
>> according to the agreed scheme)
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Severin
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Pierre Béland 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Like we started yesterday, we need various ways to validate the data.
>>> Not only via the Task Manager. Yes, global validation are a good way to do
>>> it. We started to do for roads. If you think of other ways to validate,
>>> please do.
>>>
>>> I also asked previously for monitoring tools to better follow such huge
>>> activations. After this activation, we should make an evaluation and assure
>>> we develop appropriate tools to support such activations.
>>>
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>   --
>>>  *De :* Severin Menard 
>>> *À :* "hot@openstreetmap.org" 
>>> *Envoyé le :* Mardi 28 avril 2015 6h04
>>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create an
>>> "experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to have access
>>> to the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any other mapper to this
>>> status, because she/he knowsher/him and trust her/his skills. The rest of
>>> the mappers (supposedly beginners) could map only the non validated task
>>> (as they should supposedly do). Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Severin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fellow mappers,
>>>
>>> Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a
>>> critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes
>>> OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better
>>> community support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof,
>>> and figure out under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain
>>> from contributing.
>>>
>>> Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate
>>> the tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link
>>> to local community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to
>>> create screencast for specific tasks.
>>>
>>> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>>> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
>>> couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) for some
>>> common critics, so people won't be scared away because they are to
>>> participate in a project others criticize:
>>>
>>> - Are the maps actually being used?
>>> - If this is used in critical mission, what happens when it's wrong or
>>> incomplete?
>>> - What's the point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?
>>>
>>> Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community
>>> switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to
>>> "People's life are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you
>>> shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously
>>> to make HOT even more awesome.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> clkao
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters 
>>> wrote:
>

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Andrew Buck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I do agree with you in principle, and actually suggested using the
information on the task manager linke number of tiles a user has
completed to do things like flag new users tiles for extra caution in
validating and such.  Whether we want to restrict validating by them
as well is another possibility.  We need to be very careful though to
not discourage them because new users are the people that become
experienced users a short time later and we need all the volunteers we
can get.

Also, I do think we tend to focus too much on the task manager,
especially during activations; that is why I mentioned the josm thing.
 It is an excellent tool, and we should definitely continue using it,
but we should also look at other ways more experienced mappers can
help out.  Downloading large areas by an experienced mapper and 'spot
checking' them it a very good, and efficient, way of doing QA for
those that know how.  We need to be thinking of these other, non task
manager, workflows for more experienced mappers that don't interfere
with the workers on the task managers, but also allow for more
efficient work by those who can handle the tools.

- -AndrewBuck

On 04/28/2015 06:06 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
> I am in favour of the direction Severin is proposing regarding
> privileges. If we can stop new mappers from opening tiles that have
> been validated by an experienced person then the integrity of the
> work is maintained as is. I have mentioned in the past about the
> "losing" HOT Activations amongst the myriad of Missing Maps work on
> the Task Manager and feel this would be a good time to propose a
> separate Task Manager for HOT Activations so that those activations
> stand more chance of being completed rather than disappearing down
> the bottom of a long list. Please do not misunderstand meI am
> not belittling the Missing Maps projects or trying to pass them off
> as unimportant I go into London twice a month now to help
> groups of new mappers at Mapathons to join in on the Missing Maps
> Projects... I am saying that there is a difference between the
> URGENCY of people trapped under the rubble now and the URGENCY of
> an Aid Team going into an area next week. The accuracy of the
> initial input of work during a HOT Activation needs to be high
> because it is needed as soon as possible and not to wait until 
> someone has validated it to clean it up. The quality of the initial
> work going out helps the people in the field and speed up the
> process because experienced mappers are not tied up trying to get
> individual tiles up to standard and are able to do a lot more
> mapping work themselves and also work on more advanced tasks like
> identifying impromptu camps of needy people. I have to break off
> with validating for now to prepare for another Mapathon tonight to
> tutor more new mappers and help them on their way to becoming 
> prolific mappers. Thank you all for being so understanding and
> appreciating the dilemma I was seeing unfolding at an ever
> increasing rate. We all have the same goal and hope we can achieve
> them all Keep Smiling and Keep Mapping. Ralph
> 
> 
> 
> ___ HOT mailing list 
> HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> 

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___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[john whelan]

On the wiki page it refers to *"JOSM Style 'HOT-OSM-Validation'"* does this
refer to the HDM style?

Thanks John

On 28 April 2015 at 06:44, Severin Menard  wrote:

> NIck and I made this wikipage about it:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data
>
> I should actually update it a bit. In CAR for exemple, everytime a job and
> task validation is done (the latter may not be finished, depending on the
> motivation of mappers), I unpublish the job, download the whole area and
> make a first quick check to identify areas where tasks were not correctly
> done. If it took a long time to fix, I unvalidate these tasks and republish
> the job.
> Once everything is quite OK, I repeat the same process and
> - clean everything with the validator
> - add mssing objects
> - improve the data consistency (especially the road network)
> - improve the tag consistency (again, especially the road network,
> according to the agreed scheme)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Severin
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>
>> Like we started yesterday, we need various ways to validate the data. Not
>> only via the Task Manager. Yes, global validation are a good way to do it.
>> We started to do for roads. If you think of other ways to validate, please
>> do.
>>
>> I also asked previously for monitoring tools to better follow such huge
>> activations. After this activation, we should make an evaluation and assure
>> we develop appropriate tools to support such activations.
>>
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>   --
>>  *De :* Severin Menard 
>> *À :* "hot@openstreetmap.org" 
>> *Envoyé le :* Mardi 28 avril 2015 6h04
>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create an
>> "experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to have access
>> to the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any other mapper to this
>> status, because she/he knowsher/him and trust her/his skills. The rest of
>> the mappers (supposedly beginners) could map only the non validated task
>> (as they should supposedly do). Thoughts?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Severin
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Fellow mappers,
>>
>> Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a
>> critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes
>> OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better
>> community support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof,
>> and figure out under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain
>> from contributing.
>>
>> Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate the
>> tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link to
>> local community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to
>> create screencast for specific tasks.
>>
>> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
>> couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) for some
>> common critics, so people won't be scared away because they are to
>> participate in a project others criticize:
>>
>> - Are the maps actually being used?
>> - If this is used in critical mission, what happens when it's wrong or
>> incomplete?
>> - What's the point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?
>>
>> Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community
>> switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to
>> "People's life are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you
>> shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously
>> to make HOT even more awesome.
>>
>> Best,
>> clkao
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters 
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT
>> Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest
>> to any of you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great.
>> I know many of us started during an em

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[AYTOUN RALPH]

I am in favour of the direction Severin is proposing regarding privileges.
If we can stop new mappers from opening tiles that have been validated by
an experienced person then the integrity of the work is maintained as is.
I have mentioned in the past about the "losing" HOT Activations amongst the
myriad of Missing Maps work on the Task Manager and feel this would be a
good time to propose a separate Task Manager for HOT Activations so that
those activations stand more chance of being completed rather than
disappearing down the bottom of a long list.
Please do not misunderstand meI am not belittling the Missing Maps
projects or trying to pass them off as unimportant I go into London
twice a month now to help groups of new mappers at Mapathons to join in on
the Missing Maps Projects... I am saying that there is a difference between
the URGENCY of people trapped under the rubble now and the URGENCY of an
Aid Team going into an area next week.
The accuracy of the initial input of work during a HOT Activation needs to
be high because it is needed as soon as possible and not to wait until
someone has validated it to clean it up. The quality of the initial work
going out helps the people in the field and speed up the process because
experienced mappers are not tied up trying to get individual tiles up to
standard and are able to do a lot more mapping work themselves and also
work on more advanced tasks like identifying impromptu camps of needy
people.
I have to break off with validating for now to prepare for another Mapathon
tonight to tutor more new mappers and help them on their way to becoming
prolific mappers.
Thank you all for being so understanding and appreciating the dilemma I was
seeing unfolding at an ever increasing rate.
We all have the same goal and hope we can achieve them all
Keep Smiling and Keep Mapping.
Ralph
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Severin Menard]

NIck and I made this wikipage about it:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data

I should actually update it a bit. In CAR for exemple, everytime a job and
task validation is done (the latter may not be finished, depending on the
motivation of mappers), I unpublish the job, download the whole area and
make a first quick check to identify areas where tasks were not correctly
done. If it took a long time to fix, I unvalidate these tasks and republish
the job.
Once everything is quite OK, I repeat the same process and
- clean everything with the validator
- add mssing objects
- improve the data consistency (especially the road network)
- improve the tag consistency (again, especially the road network,
according to the agreed scheme)

Sincerely,

Severin

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:

> Like we started yesterday, we need various ways to validate the data. Not
> only via the Task Manager. Yes, global validation are a good way to do it.
> We started to do for roads. If you think of other ways to validate, please
> do.
>
> I also asked previously for monitoring tools to better follow such huge
> activations. After this activation, we should make an evaluation and assure
> we develop appropriate tools to support such activations.
>
>
> Pierre
>
>   --
>  *De :* Severin Menard 
> *À :* "hot@openstreetmap.org" 
> *Envoyé le :* Mardi 28 avril 2015 6h04
> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>
> Hi,
>
> We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create an
> "experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to have access
> to the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any other mapper to this
> status, because she/he knowsher/him and trust her/his skills. The rest of
> the mappers (supposedly beginners) could map only the non validated task
> (as they should supposedly do). Thoughts?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Severin
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao  wrote:
>
>
>
> Fellow mappers,
>
> Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a
> critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes
> OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better
> community support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof,
> and figure out under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain
> from contributing.
>
> Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate the
> tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link to
> local community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to
> create screencast for specific tasks.
>
> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
> couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) for some
> common critics, so people won't be scared away because they are to
> participate in a project others criticize:
>
> - Are the maps actually being used?
> - If this is used in critical mission, what happens when it's wrong or
> incomplete?
> - What's the point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?
>
> Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community
> switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to
> "People's life are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you
> shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously
> to make HOT even more awesome.
>
> Best,
> clkao
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters 
> wrote:
>
> This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT
> Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest
> to any of you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...
>
> Pete
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson 
> wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great. I
> know many of us started during an emergency.
>
> For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was firm
> last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are right
> that we need to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So, I
> started another email chain about training help.
>
> Step by step,
>
> heather
>
> Heather Leson
> heatherle...@gmail.com
> Twitter: HeatherLeson
> Blog: textontechs.com
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>
> Andrew
>
> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long
> Activa

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

Like we started yesterday, we need various ways to validate the data. Not only 
via the Task Manager. Yes, global validation are a good way to do it. We 
started to do for roads. If you think of other ways to validate, please do.
I also asked previously for monitoring tools to better follow such huge 
activations. After this activation, we should make an evaluation and assure we 
develop appropriate tools to support such activations.
  
Pierre 

  De : Severin Menard 
 À : "hot@openstreetmap.org"  
 Envoyé le : Mardi 28 avril 2015 6h04
 Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!
   
Hi,

We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create an 
"experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to have access to 
the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any other mapper to this status, 
because she/he knowsher/him and trust her/his skills. The rest of the mappers 
(supposedly beginners) could map only the non validated task (as they should 
supposedly do). Thoughts?

Sincerely,

Severin

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao  wrote:



Fellow mappers,
Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a critical 
issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes OSM and HOT 
great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better community 
support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof, and figure out 
under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain from contributing.
Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate the tasks 
to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link to local 
community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to create 
screencast for specific tasks.
As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during disasters, it 
might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually couldn't find one, 
please enlighten me if there's already one) for some common critics, so people 
won't be scared away because they are to participate in a project others 
criticize:
- Are the maps actually being used?- If this is used in critical mission, what 
happens when it's wrong or incomplete?- What's the point for tracing from 
pre-disaster imagery?
Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community switched 
from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to "People's life 
are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you shouldn't do it".  But in 
any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously to make HOT even more awesome.
Best,clkao

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters  wrote:

This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT Summit 
this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest to any of 
you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...
Pete
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson  wrote:

Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great. I know 
many of us started during an emergency. 

For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was firm last 
night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are right that we need 
to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So, I started another 
email chain about training help. 

Step by step, 

heather

Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter: HeatherLeson 
Blog: textontechs.com

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:

Andrew
This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long Activation, 
we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great job. They were in 
the top list of contributors.
This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well the new 
contributors. 

I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make to our 
monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and assure we have 
the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce quality mapping.
regard  
Pierre 

  De : Andrew Buck 
 À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
 Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!
   
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.

Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
other mappers.

- -AndrewBuck


On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
> If

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Severin Menard]

Hi,

We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create an
"experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to have access
to the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any other mapper to this
status, because she/he knowsher/him and trust her/his skills. The rest of
the mappers (supposedly beginners) could map only the non validated task
(as they should supposedly do). Thoughts?

Sincerely,

Severin

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao  wrote:

> Fellow mappers,
>
> Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a
> critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes
> OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better
> community support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof,
> and figure out under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain
> from contributing.
>
> Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate the
> tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link to
> local community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to
> create screencast for specific tasks.
>
> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
> couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) for some
> common critics, so people won't be scared away because they are to
> participate in a project others criticize:
>
> - Are the maps actually being used?
> - If this is used in critical mission, what happens when it's wrong or
> incomplete?
> - What's the point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?
>
> Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community
> switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to
> "People's life are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you
> shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously
> to make HOT even more awesome.
>
> Best,
> clkao
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters 
> wrote:
>
>> This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT
>> Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest
>> to any of you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great.
>>> I know many of us started during an emergency.
>>>
>>> For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was
>>> firm last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are
>>> right that we need to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So,
>>> I started another email chain about training help.
>>>
>>> Step by step,
>>>
>>> heather
>>>
>>> Heather Leson
>>> heatherle...@gmail.com
>>> Twitter: HeatherLeson
>>> Blog: textontechs.com
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long
>>>> Activation, we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great
>>>> job. They were in the top list of contributors.
>>>>
>>>> This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well
>>>> the new contributors.
>>>>
>>>> I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make
>>>> to our monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and
>>>> assure we have the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce
>>>> quality mapping.
>>>>
>>>> regard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pierre
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>  *De :* Andrew Buck 
>>>> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
>>>> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
>>>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>>>>
>>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>> I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
>>>> some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
>>>> load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
>>>> download' plugin.  You can then scan ov

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Chia-liang Kao]

Fellow mappers,

Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a
critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes
OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better
community support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof,
and figure out under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain
from contributing.

Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate the
tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link to
local community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to
create screencast for specific tasks.

As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during disasters,
it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually couldn't
find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) for some common
critics, so people won't be scared away because they are to participate in
a project others criticize:

- Are the maps actually being used?
- If this is used in critical mission, what happens when it's wrong or
incomplete?
- What's the point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?

Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community
switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to
"People's life are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you
shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously
to make HOT even more awesome.

Best,
clkao

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters 
wrote:

> This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT
> Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest
> to any of you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...
>
> Pete
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great.
>> I know many of us started during an emergency.
>>
>> For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was
>> firm last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are
>> right that we need to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So,
>> I started another email chain about training help.
>>
>> Step by step,
>>
>> heather
>>
>> Heather Leson
>> heatherle...@gmail.com
>> Twitter: HeatherLeson
>> Blog: textontechs.com
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long
>>> Activation, we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great
>>> job. They were in the top list of contributors.
>>>
>>> This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well the
>>> new contributors.
>>>
>>> I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make
>>> to our monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and
>>> assure we have the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce
>>> quality mapping.
>>>
>>> regard
>>>
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>   --
>>>  *De :* Andrew Buck 
>>> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
>>> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
>>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>>>
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
>>> some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
>>> load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
>>> download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
>>> the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
>>> doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.
>>>
>>> Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
>>> Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
>>> of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
>>> other mappers.
>>>
>>> - -AndrewBuck
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
>>> > If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out. We need to
>>> > change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it. These
>>> > Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives
>>> > are at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some
&

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pete Masters]

This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT
Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest
to any of you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...

Pete

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson 
wrote:

> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great. I
> know many of us started during an emergency.
>
> For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was firm
> last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are right
> that we need to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So, I
> started another email chain about training help.
>
> Step by step,
>
> heather
>
> Heather Leson
> heatherle...@gmail.com
> Twitter: HeatherLeson
> Blog: textontechs.com
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>
>> Andrew
>>
>> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long
>> Activation, we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great
>> job. They were in the top list of contributors.
>>
>> This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well the
>> new contributors.
>>
>> I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make to
>> our monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and assure
>> we have the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce quality
>> mapping.
>>
>> regard
>>
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>   --
>>  *De :* Andrew Buck 
>> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
>> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
>> some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
>> load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
>> download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
>> the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
>> doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.
>>
>> Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
>> Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
>> of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
>> other mappers.
>>
>> - -AndrewBuck
>>
>>
>> On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
>> > If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out. We need to
>> > change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it. These
>> > Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives
>> > are at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some
>> > with no completed tiles and others with only one or two completed
>> > tiles) messing around with validating tiles or unlocking already
>> > validated tiles and working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal
>> > #944 showing 5 validated tiles are actively locked. When I checked
>> > on the people that were doing this they were complete beginners. I
>> > have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
>> > beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected
>> > roads (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then
>> > validating this tile, then invalidating it again. While I am all in
>> > favour of getting new mappers up and going this should only be done
>> > on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
>> > extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for
>> > those people out in the field with injured and dead all around them
>> > and lives at stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles
>> > because we can no longer trust them to be correct or near to
>> > correct. We have already had complaints about poor quality work in
>> > the past and this type of activity is not going to get us any
>> > better credibility. We really need to rethink the "open to all"
>> > policy for HOT Activations. I am now looking at #944 which shows
>> > 63% Validated right now and there is two more Validated tiles that
>> > are actively locked. I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as
>> > being checked and cleared. I know that the majority of what we are
>> > producing will be of some assistance in the hills of Nepal but can
>> > also imagine the frustration of those people with some of the
>

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Heather Leson]

Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great. I
know many of us started during an emergency.

For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was firm
last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are right
that we need to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So, I
started another email chain about training help.

Step by step,

heather

Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland  wrote:

> Andrew
>
> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long
> Activation, we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great
> job. They were in the top list of contributors.
>
> This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well the
> new contributors.
>
> I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make to
> our monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and assure
> we have the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce quality
> mapping.
>
> regard
>
>
> Pierre
>
>   --
>  *De :* Andrew Buck 
> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAGH!
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
> some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
> load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
> download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
> the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
> doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.
>
> Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
> Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
> of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
> other mappers.
>
> - -AndrewBuck
>
>
> On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
> > If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out. We need to
> > change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it. These
> > Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives
> > are at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some
> > with no completed tiles and others with only one or two completed
> > tiles) messing around with validating tiles or unlocking already
> > validated tiles and working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal
> > #944 showing 5 validated tiles are actively locked. When I checked
> > on the people that were doing this they were complete beginners. I
> > have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
> > beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected
> > roads (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then
> > validating this tile, then invalidating it again. While I am all in
> > favour of getting new mappers up and going this should only be done
> > on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
> > extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for
> > those people out in the field with injured and dead all around them
> > and lives at stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles
> > because we can no longer trust them to be correct or near to
> > correct. We have already had complaints about poor quality work in
> > the past and this type of activity is not going to get us any
> > better credibility. We really need to rethink the "open to all"
> > policy for HOT Activations. I am now looking at #944 which shows
> > 63% Validated right now and there is two more Validated tiles that
> > are actively locked. I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as
> > being checked and cleared. I know that the majority of what we are
> > producing will be of some assistance in the hills of Nepal but can
> > also imagine the frustration of those people with some of the
> > nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating. OK. Rant
> > over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I have
> > identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to
> > open any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more
> > experience. Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this
> > crisis but felt that this needed to be said. Ralph (RAytoun)
> >
> >
> >
> > ___ HOT mailing list
> > HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> >
>
> -

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

Andrew
This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long Activation, 
we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great job. They were in 
the top list of contributors.
This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well the new 
contributors. 

I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make to our 
monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and assure we have 
the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce quality mapping.
regard  
Pierre 

  De : Andrew Buck 
 À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
 Objet : Re: [HOT] AAGH!
   
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.

Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
other mappers.

- -AndrewBuck


On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
> If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out. We need to
> change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it. These
> Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives
> are at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some
> with no completed tiles and others with only one or two completed
> tiles) messing around with validating tiles or unlocking already
> validated tiles and working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal
> #944 showing 5 validated tiles are actively locked. When I checked
> on the people that were doing this they were complete beginners. I
> have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these 
> beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected
> roads (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then
> validating this tile, then invalidating it again. While I am all in
> favour of getting new mappers up and going this should only be done
> on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is 
> extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for
> those people out in the field with injured and dead all around them
> and lives at stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles
> because we can no longer trust them to be correct or near to
> correct. We have already had complaints about poor quality work in
> the past and this type of activity is not going to get us any
> better credibility. We really need to rethink the "open to all"
> policy for HOT Activations. I am now looking at #944 which shows
> 63% Validated right now and there is two more Validated tiles that
> are actively locked. I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as
> being checked and cleared. I know that the majority of what we are
> producing will be of some assistance in the hills of Nepal but can
> also imagine the frustration of those people with some of the
> nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating. OK. Rant
> over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I have 
> identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to
> open any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more
> experience. Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this
> crisis but felt that this needed to be said. Ralph (RAytoun)
> 
> 
> 
> ___ HOT mailing list 
> HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> 

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___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


  ___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Andrew Buck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.

Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
other mappers.

- -AndrewBuck


On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
> If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out. We need to
> change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it. These
> Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives
> are at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some
> with no completed tiles and others with only one or two completed
> tiles) messing around with validating tiles or unlocking already
> validated tiles and working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal
> #944 showing 5 validated tiles are actively locked. When I checked
> on the people that were doing this they were complete beginners. I
> have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these 
> beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected
> roads (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then
> validating this tile, then invalidating it again. While I am all in
> favour of getting new mappers up and going this should only be done
> on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is 
> extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for
> those people out in the field with injured and dead all around them
> and lives at stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles
> because we can no longer trust them to be correct or near to
> correct. We have already had complaints about poor quality work in
> the past and this type of activity is not going to get us any
> better credibility. We really need to rethink the "open to all"
> policy for HOT Activations. I am now looking at #944 which shows
> 63% Validated right now and there is two more Validated tiles that
> are actively locked. I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as
> being checked and cleared. I know that the majority of what we are
> producing will be of some assistance in the hills of Nepal but can
> also imagine the frustration of those people with some of the
> nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating. OK. Rant
> over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I have 
> identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to
> open any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more
> experience. Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this
> crisis but felt that this needed to be said. Ralph (RAytoun)
> 
> 
> 
> ___ HOT mailing list 
> HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> 

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___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[AYTOUN RALPH]

OK. I will not say anything further on this open forum.

On 27 April 2015 at 16:50, Heather Leson  wrote:

> Thanks Ralph, Pierre, Nama and Pete.
>
> Ralph, I think that the process for learning is hard and that our
> activation processes do need work. This is why I am so excited that some
> people are meeting this week for the Activation Team and then for the HOT
> Summit. We will get there. I would only ask that you warmly welcome new
> people more. It is hard to learn and your note might have made them feel
> not welcome.
>
> Pierre, Absolutely, we all need to take care. I, too, and starting to feel
> the strain of crisis actions. I will share some more about this tomorrow as
> I promised myself that I would log off after work, have a meal, and go for
> a walk. Health matters.
>
> Pete, I am not sure this is the time to decide.
>
>
> Nama - I agree that maybe we need to have a validation work around.
> Perhaps someone can help on that? Many of you are so very experienced in
> this.
>
> All - HOT is an open community. All of us have different skills and
> skill-sets, we come from different cultures and are global. This is what
> makes us amazing, and it is also hard. For all the new mappers, please do
> read the guides and ask questions on the various channels. There are so
> many mappers here. It should always be a safe place to ask a question on
> the mailing list or IRC or mumble. This is part of the learning journey.
> Yes, we have some changes to make and we will do so, but we are very much
> guided by our Code of Conduct and our desire to grow and support people
> with maps.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Leson
> heatherle...@gmail.com
> Twitter: HeatherLeson
> Blog: textontechs.com
>
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>
>> Ralph,
>>
>>
>> Crisis management, redundance, and yes sometimes frustrating. But we have
>> to keep our positive energy after running non stop since saturday morning.
>> Crowdsourcing, we evolve from these experiences in context of crisis.
>>
>> We would surely need a validation process that let's focus on the less
>> experienced contributors.
>> I wonder if such information could be extracted from the Task manager -
>> Tasks completed by contributors less then xx months of experience ??
>>
>> Should we have a team of validators that work together and identify ways
>> to go on with validation and assure both quick response and quality?
>>
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>   --
>>  *De :* AYTOUN RALPH 
>> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
>> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 11h25
>> *Objet :* [HOT] AAGH!
>>
>> If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out.
>> We need to change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it.
>> These Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives are
>> at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some with no
>> completed tiles and others with only one or two completed tiles) messing
>> around with validating tiles or unlocking already validated tiles and
>> working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal #944 showing 5 validated
>> tiles are actively locked. When I checked on the people that were doing
>> this they were complete beginners.
>> I have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
>> beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected roads
>> (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then validating
>> this tile, then invalidating it again.
>> While I am all in favour of getting new mappers up and going this should
>> only be done on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
>> extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for those
>> people out in the field with injured and dead all around them and lives at
>> stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles because we can no
>> longer trust them to be correct or near to correct.
>> We have already had complaints about poor quality work in the past and
>> this type of activity is not going to get us any better credibility. We
>> really need to rethink the "open to all" policy for HOT Activations.
>> I am now looking at #944 which shows 63% Validated right now and there is
>> two more Validated tiles that are actively locked.
>> I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as being checked and cleared. I
>> know that the majority of what we are producing will be of some assistance
>> in the hills of Nepal but can als

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Heather Leson]

Thanks Ralph, Pierre, Nama and Pete.

Ralph, I think that the process for learning is hard and that our
activation processes do need work. This is why I am so excited that some
people are meeting this week for the Activation Team and then for the HOT
Summit. We will get there. I would only ask that you warmly welcome new
people more. It is hard to learn and your note might have made them feel
not welcome.

Pierre, Absolutely, we all need to take care. I, too, and starting to feel
the strain of crisis actions. I will share some more about this tomorrow as
I promised myself that I would log off after work, have a meal, and go for
a walk. Health matters.

Pete, I am not sure this is the time to decide.


Nama - I agree that maybe we need to have a validation work around. Perhaps
someone can help on that? Many of you are so very experienced in this.

All - HOT is an open community. All of us have different skills and
skill-sets, we come from different cultures and are global. This is what
makes us amazing, and it is also hard. For all the new mappers, please do
read the guides and ask questions on the various channels. There are so
many mappers here. It should always be a safe place to ask a question on
the mailing list or IRC or mumble. This is part of the learning journey.
Yes, we have some changes to make and we will do so, but we are very much
guided by our Code of Conduct and our desire to grow and support people
with maps.



Thank you

Heather

Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Pierre Béland  wrote:

> Ralph,
>
>
> Crisis management, redundance, and yes sometimes frustrating. But we have
> to keep our positive energy after running non stop since saturday morning.
> Crowdsourcing, we evolve from these experiences in context of crisis.
>
> We would surely need a validation process that let's focus on the less
> experienced contributors.
> I wonder if such information could be extracted from the Task manager -
> Tasks completed by contributors less then xx months of experience ??
>
> Should we have a team of validators that work together and identify ways
> to go on with validation and assure both quick response and quality?
>
>
> Pierre
>
>   --
>  *De :* AYTOUN RALPH 
> *À :* hot@openstreetmap.org
> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 11h25
> *Objet :* [HOT] AAGH!
>
> If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out.
> We need to change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it.
> These Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives are
> at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some with no
> completed tiles and others with only one or two completed tiles) messing
> around with validating tiles or unlocking already validated tiles and
> working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal #944 showing 5 validated
> tiles are actively locked. When I checked on the people that were doing
> this they were complete beginners.
> I have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
> beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected roads
> (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then validating
> this tile, then invalidating it again.
> While I am all in favour of getting new mappers up and going this should
> only be done on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
> extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for those
> people out in the field with injured and dead all around them and lives at
> stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles because we can no
> longer trust them to be correct or near to correct.
> We have already had complaints about poor quality work in the past and
> this type of activity is not going to get us any better credibility. We
> really need to rethink the "open to all" policy for HOT Activations.
> I am now looking at #944 which shows 63% Validated right now and there is
> two more Validated tiles that are actively locked.
> I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as being checked and cleared. I
> know that the majority of what we are producing will be of some assistance
> in the hills of Nepal but can also imagine the frustration of those people
> with some of the nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating.
> OK. Rant over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I
> have identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to open
> any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more experience.
> Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this crisis but felt that
> this needed to be said.
> Ralph (RAytoun)
>
> ___

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Nama Budhathoki]

Hi Aytoun,

You bring serious concern. I can understand your concern from our past
experience working with inexperienced mappers from some universities.

Please understand that we are so busy here in the field that we hardly have
time to look at the quality of the data. Hope others will through their
ideas on how to handle the situation.

It is good that more people are interested to help. But we need data that
is useful in rescue,relief and recovery work.

Nama

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 9:10 PM, AYTOUN RALPH 
wrote:

> If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out.
> We need to change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it.
> These Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives are
> at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some with no
> completed tiles and others with only one or two completed tiles) messing
> around with validating tiles or unlocking already validated tiles and
> working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal #944 showing 5 validated
> tiles are actively locked. When I checked on the people that were doing
> this they were complete beginners.
> I have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
> beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected roads
> (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then validating
> this tile, then invalidating it again.
> While I am all in favour of getting new mappers up and going this should
> only be done on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
> extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for those
> people out in the field with injured and dead all around them and lives at
> stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles because we can no
> longer trust them to be correct or near to correct.
> We have already had complaints about poor quality work in the past and
> this type of activity is not going to get us any better credibility. We
> really need to rethink the "open to all" policy for HOT Activations.
> I am now looking at #944 which shows 63% Validated right now and there is
> two more Validated tiles that are actively locked.
> I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as being checked and cleared. I
> know that the majority of what we are producing will be of some assistance
> in the hills of Nepal but can also imagine the frustration of those people
> with some of the nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating.
> OK. Rant over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I
> have identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to open
> any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more experience.
> Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this crisis but felt that
> this needed to be said.
> Ralph (RAytoun)
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>


-- 

Nama R. Budhathoki, Ph.D.
Executive Director, Kathmandu Living Labs *(www.kathmandulivinglabs.org
)*
Cell: 977-9803571739
Office: 977-6205000
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pierre Béland]

Ralph,

Crisis management, redundance, and yes sometimes frustrating. But we have to 
keep our positive energy after running non stop since saturday morning. 
Crowdsourcing, we evolve from these experiences in context of crisis.

We would surely need a validation process that let's focus on the less 
experienced contributors. 
I wonder if such information could be extracted from the Task manager - Tasks 
completed by contributors less then xx months of experience ??
Should we have a team of validators that work together and identify ways to go 
on with validation and assure both quick response and quality?
  
Pierre 

  De : AYTOUN RALPH 
 À : hot@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : Lundi 27 avril 2015 11h25
 Objet : [HOT] AARRRRGH!
   
If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out.We need to change what we 
are doing and who we are letting in to do it.These Activations in response to a 
disaster means that people's lives are at stake here. I am finding totally 
inexperienced mappers (some with no completed tiles and others with only one or 
two completed tiles) messing around with validating tiles or unlocking already 
validated tiles and working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal #944 showing 
5 validated tiles are actively locked. When I checked on the people that were 
doing this they were complete beginners.I have had one of the tiles I had 
completed opened by one of these beginners and started adding short little 
sections of disconnected roads (The instructions specifically ask us not to add 
these) then validating this tile, then invalidating it again.While I am all in 
favour of getting new mappers up and going this should only be done on the 
Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is extremely important that 
we get it right as quickly as possible for those people out in the field with 
injured and dead all around them and lives at stake for us to be rechecking 
already validated tiles because we can no longer trust them to be correct or 
near to correct.We have already had complaints about poor quality work in the 
past and this type of activity is not going to get us any better credibility. 
We really need to rethink the "open to all" policy for HOT Activations.I am now 
looking at #944 which shows 63% Validated right now and there is two more 
Validated tiles that are actively locked.I no longer trust the Green marked 
tiles as being checked and cleared. I know that the majority of what we are 
producing will be of some assistance in the hills of Nepal but can also imagine 
the frustration of those people with some of the nonsense I have managed to 
clean up while validating.OK. Rant over. I will be sending out messages to all 
the new mappers I have identified asking them to only work on the white tiles 
and not to open any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more 
experience.Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this crisis but felt 
that this needed to be said.Ralph (RAytoun)
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


  ___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[Pete Masters]

It's a fair point, Ralph.

I will ask on the Missing Maps platforms that people not contribute if this
is their first time mapping.

It might be good to put a note on the description and instructions on the
tasks: EXPERIENCED MAPPERS ONLY

Happy to do this if you guys think it's a good way to go...

Pete



On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:25 PM, AYTOUN RALPH 
wrote:

> If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out.
> We need to change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it.
> These Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives are
> at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some with no
> completed tiles and others with only one or two completed tiles) messing
> around with validating tiles or unlocking already validated tiles and
> working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal #944 showing 5 validated
> tiles are actively locked. When I checked on the people that were doing
> this they were complete beginners.
> I have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
> beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected roads
> (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then validating
> this tile, then invalidating it again.
> While I am all in favour of getting new mappers up and going this should
> only be done on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
> extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for those
> people out in the field with injured and dead all around them and lives at
> stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles because we can no
> longer trust them to be correct or near to correct.
> We have already had complaints about poor quality work in the past and
> this type of activity is not going to get us any better credibility. We
> really need to rethink the "open to all" policy for HOT Activations.
> I am now looking at #944 which shows 63% Validated right now and there is
> two more Validated tiles that are actively locked.
> I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as being checked and cleared. I
> know that the majority of what we are producing will be of some assistance
> in the hills of Nepal but can also imagine the frustration of those people
> with some of the nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating.
> OK. Rant over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I
> have identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to open
> any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more experience.
> Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this crisis but felt that
> this needed to be said.
> Ralph (RAytoun)
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>


-- 
*Pete Masters*
Missing Maps Project Coordinator
+44 7921 781 518

missingmaps.org 

*@pedrito1414* 
*@theMissingMaps* 
*facebook.com/MissingMapsProject*

___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

[HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

[AYTOUN RALPH]

If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out.
We need to change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it.
These Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives are
at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some with no
completed tiles and others with only one or two completed tiles) messing
around with validating tiles or unlocking already validated tiles and
working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal #944 showing 5 validated
tiles are actively locked. When I checked on the people that were doing
this they were complete beginners.
I have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected roads
(The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then validating
this tile, then invalidating it again.
While I am all in favour of getting new mappers up and going this should
only be done on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for those
people out in the field with injured and dead all around them and lives at
stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles because we can no
longer trust them to be correct or near to correct.
We have already had complaints about poor quality work in the past and this
type of activity is not going to get us any better credibility. We really
need to rethink the "open to all" policy for HOT Activations.
I am now looking at #944 which shows 63% Validated right now and there is
two more Validated tiles that are actively locked.
I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as being checked and cleared. I
know that the majority of what we are producing will be of some assistance
in the hills of Nepal but can also imagine the frustration of those people
with some of the nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating.
OK. Rant over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I have
identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to open any
of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more experience.
Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this crisis but felt that
this needed to be said.
Ralph (RAytoun)
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot