Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 10/13/2007
   at 10:05 PM, Andrew McLaren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>(*Once I was solemnly informed by an IT manager that only two operating
>systems exit for IBM mainframes: MVS and VM!  What? No DPPX/370?? :-)

No ACP, no DOS, no IX/370, no MTS, no OS/VS1, no SVS, no TSS/370?
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Howard Brazee]

On 12 Oct 2007 07:07:18 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.) wrote:

>Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist on 
>mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk of starting new war I 
>can provide some examples:
>a) VSE. It is obsolete, insecure, in fact "moribound". Oftenly it is run 
>on very small machines, so this workload could be easily run on cheaper 
>platform. The problem is nobody migrated the application.
>b) IMS. Yeah, I know that many big companies still use it and are very 
>happy of it. Question is how many *new* applications are IMS-based, why 
>other platforms do not have IMS-like database. They have DB2 and other 
>relational databases, but not IMS.
>c) ISAM. It is dead now. Death sentence was known for 30+ years. Even 
>few years ago there still were shops using ISAM files.
>d) TPF. Similar status to VSE.

Mainframes that are designed around these facilities are not the only
mainframes.Some mainframes are around providing the fastest, most
efficient, and most secure database.

Just because the old paradigm has changed, doesn't mean every tool
that worked with the old way is inappropriate for the new way.

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Mike Bell]

Design counts - always has - always will.
ADABAS got rewritten to 64bit addressability bufferpools with what they call
ADABAS 2006.  I don't know how widely implemented it is.

The design target for ADABAS is closer to IMS than DB2 because it supports
multiple occurences for fields in the same record. That makes converting an
existing ADABAS design to DB2 either run poorly or require a redesign. The
other feature I remember was the automatic field level compression.  Because
they don't make computers, it uses more CPU than DB2 compression. DB2
compression uses the Z/Arch compression instructions.

The boundries of a database tell you how far you can push a design.  DB2 can
support a partitioned table with 4096 extended format datasets of 64G each.
Don't know anything else with that kind of limits.  Lets ignore the maximum
number of open datasets limit for Z/os for now. You could very easily end up
with a DB2 subsystem that could only support 1-2 tables plus indexes. The
other side is that you could implement a design that added a partition every
month and have to redesign the system 341 years from now.

BTW - I live over on DB2 Listserv but lurk both here and on IMS - in case it
isn't obvious.

Mike



On 10/16/07, Joel C. Ewing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From the perspective of a heavy DB2 shop, the difference between a
> properly designed and tuned DB2 application and the same DB2 application
> that is not well designed or tuned can easily be 2 to 3 orders of
> magnitude difference in CPU and response time.  To have confidence that
> any comparison between DB2 and ADABAS was valid would obviously require
> knowing whether reasonable effort in design and tuning was employed in
> both the DB2 and ADABAS implementations of whatever benchmarks were used.
>
> DB2 scales upward to heavy loads very well as long as you are willing to
> be generous in the amount a memory you throw at it; and in general more
> memory means less CPU and lower response time.  I don't know enough
> about ADABAS to know whether it behaves similarly under heavy load.
>
> Itschak Mugzach wrote:
> > I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS
> is
> > much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
> >
> > Itschak
> ...
>
> --
> Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, AR[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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-- 
Mike

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Joel C. Ewing]

From the perspective of a heavy DB2 shop, the difference between a 
properly designed and tuned DB2 application and the same DB2 application 
that is not well designed or tuned can easily be 2 to 3 orders of 
magnitude difference in CPU and response time.  To have confidence that 
any comparison between DB2 and ADABAS was valid would obviously require 
knowing whether reasonable effort in design and tuning was employed in 
both the DB2 and ADABAS implementations of whatever benchmarks were used.


DB2 scales upward to heavy loads very well as long as you are willing to 
be generous in the amount a memory you throw at it; and in general more 
memory means less CPU and lower response time.  I don't know enough 
about ADABAS to know whether it behaves similarly under heavy load.


Itschak Mugzach wrote:

I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true? 


Itschak

...

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Itschak Mugzach]

 Andrew, 

Compared to what others have done to this topic, you are in a good root 

Itschak 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew McLaren
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 2:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

Pardon the topic drift, but ...

I'd tended to assume VSE was more common in Europe, Middle East, or here in
Australia.  When I've mentioned VSE to Americans, sometimes they don't even
know it exists (okay, granted: these were very poorly informed folks*! but
anyways ..)

It sounds, from the responses here, as though VSE is actually present and
active in the US.

Are there any rough metrics on the prevalence of VSE in the US?

Just curious

Apologies again for drifting the topic.

Cheers,
Andrew

(*Once I was solemnly informed by an IT manager that only two operating
systems exit for IBM mainframes: MVS and VM!  What? No DPPX/370?? :-)

-Original Message-

> VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV!

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Andrew McLaren]

Pardon the topic drift, but ...

I'd tended to assume VSE was more common in Europe, Middle East, or here in
Australia.  When I've mentioned VSE to Americans, sometimes they don't even
know it exists (okay, granted: these were very poorly informed folks*! but
anyways ..)

It sounds, from the responses here, as though VSE is actually present and
active in the US.

Are there any rough metrics on the prevalence of VSE in the US?

Just curious

Apologies again for drifting the topic.

Cheers,
Andrew

(*Once I was solemnly informed by an IT manager that only two operating
systems exit for IBM mainframes: MVS and VM!  What? No DPPX/370?? :-)

-Original Message-

> VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV!

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Tom Harper]

Radoslaw,

You are mistaken. IBM has had double-digit new license growth in IMS for
several years now. 

Tom Harper
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. 

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:

There are possibly no new IMS customers in even in 
mainframe world.
-- 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Rich Smrcina]

Is the customer base growing?  Maybe, maybe not, only IBM knows.  But I 
certainly wouldn't use that classify it as a dead operating system.  IBM 
is still putting a fair amount of investment into it, 64-bit real 
support, VSE Connectors, new device capabilities.  Hardly the mark of a 
dead operating system.


R.S. wrote:
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV! And if you think that 
TPF is  dead, just check how many airlines use it every day. Ask Kees 
for his learned  opinion! 
Is the customer base growing ? How many new customers arrived last year, 
last 5 years ?




--
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Phone: 414-491-6001
Ans Service:  360-715-2467
rich.smrcina at vmassist.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina

Catch the WAVV!  http://www.wavv.org
WAVV 2008 - Chattanooga - April 18-22, 2008

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Itschak Mugzach]

Well, IMS is nor dead for sure. But think you are a Chinese bank with some
hundreds of account. Now try to access it with DB2 or Anabas with a
reasonable response time. 
I have seen few TPF systems in my life. Like old soldiers, they don't die,
they are outsourced. This is because in the systems TPF running, there is an
advantage to size. 

Itschak  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of A L Hughes
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

Radoslaw
 
You have been reading too many ill-informed Anton comments
 
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV! And if you think that TPF is
dead, just check how many airlines use it every day. Ask Kees for his
learned opinion! 
 
IMS - as others have commented, almost every time you use an ATM, you use
IMS. New applications? Who cares! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. IMS will
still be around after we've all abandoned MS Vista
 
Aled
 
 



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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[R.S.]

A L Hughes wrote:

Radoslaw
 
You have been reading too many ill-informed Anton comments

Well... no comments.

VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV! And if you think that TPF is  
dead, just check how many airlines use it every day. Ask Kees for his learned  
opinion! 
Is the customer base growing ? How many new customers arrived last year, 
last 5 years ?


IMS - as others have commented, almost every time you use an ATM, you use  
IMS. 
Never. Here, in Poland, even rarely mainframe. No bank in Poland uses 
IMS (although one installation exists in some factory). Very few banks 
use mainframes. Hint: even if VISA use IMS, my authorization in Poland 
usually is not routed to VISA system.


New applications? Who cares! 
That's the point. The dino is still alive, but there are no new dinos. I 
care. I see a problem here.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

Agreed. That why I don't apply PTFs, nor migrate to newer releases 
But seriously: I really agree.


IMS will still be around after we've all abandoned MS Vista
Please, no. Don't tell me that our choice IMS or Vista. I'd prefer 
modern systems and apps: z/OS, DB2, MQ, AIX, Solaris, Oracle. And 
possibly VISTA or whatever on terminal (yes, terminal, XP is my 
microcode ).


I really don't want to blame IMS or any other thing. I just wanted to 
show how conservative mainframe environment could be. No one criticised 
my point about ISAM, because that's obviously dead technology. IMS is 
not dead, however it becames more and more unpopular. IBM provides a lot 
of courses in DB2 area, and AFAIK nothing in IMS. No new implementations 
of IMS (IMS-like) databases on other platforms. WHY ??? Is it impossible 
or just not wanted ? There are possibly no new IMS customers in even in 
mainframe world.
Of course big IMS databases will be maintained "forever". But it proves 
nothing. I also heard about very ancient MVS installations in Japan, 
still running Unisys mainframes, GCOS installations, BS2000, or polish 
ODRA (ICL 1900 clones). Are Unisys mainframes alive ? No, IMHO.
Many (majority?) VSE workloads can be run on medium-sized Intel server. 
However someone did not decide to migrate or assessed cost of migrations 
as higher than mianframe costs. I believe, in many cases it is lack of 
decision rather than real assessment.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Ray Mullins]

Which includes the removal of the 255 task limit, amongst other things...

-- 
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Roseville, CA, USA 
http://www.catherdersoftware.com/
http://www.mrmullins.big-bear-city.ca.us/ 
http://www.the-bus-stops-here.org/ 

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French is essentially German with messed-up pronunciation and spelling.
--Robert B Wilson
English is essentially French converted to 7-bit ASCII.  ---Christophe
Pierret [for Alain LaBonté]




> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Edward Jaffe
> Sent: Friday, 12 October, 2007 10:17
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
> 
> A L Hughes wrote:
> > VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV!
> 
> Or the latest z/VSE announcement at
> http://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/8/897/ENUS207-228/ENUS207228.PDF
>

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Edward Jaffe]

A L Hughes wrote:

VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV!


Or the latest z/VSE announcement at 
http://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/8/897/ENUS207-228/ENUS207228.PDF


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Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[A L Hughes]

Radoslaw
 
You have been reading too many ill-informed Anton comments
 
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV! And if you think that TPF is  
dead, just check how many airlines use it every day. Ask Kees for his learned  
opinion! 
 
IMS - as others have commented, almost every time you use an ATM, you use  
IMS. New applications? Who cares! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. IMS will  
still be around after we've all abandoned MS Vista
 
Aled
 
 



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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Chris Taylor]

Suggest that you ask your question on Yahoo Message boards. I think your 
diatribe would be better directed there, from what I have read..

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:00 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
[...]
> The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still with us is probably because 
> they ultimately offer a different set of benefits to their users.

Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist on
mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk of starting new war I
can provide some examples:
a) VSE. It is obsolete, insecure, in fact "moribound". Oftenly it is run
on very small machines, so this workload could be easily run on cheaper
platform. The problem is nobody migrated the application.


DOCH!

I don't think your reasons would be shared by all VSE users. When IBM
fixed a few issues creating VSE/ESA, there were shops that migrated BACK
to VSE from MVS. That IBM is not "actively" upgrading VSE does not make
it obsolete. But those fixes surprised many MVS knowledgeable people
who, when migrating a VSE system to MVS, thought that they would
immediately gain "performance" because of I/O issues. By giving VSE "XA"
I/O (SSCH vs. SIO/SIOF), that old performance boost idea went away. VSE
also handles VSAM better than MVS in that sharing of files has better
support (well, until "MVS" got record level locking).

And then there is the situation where VSE is cheaper to run in terms of
software costs. Which is, in my opinion, the reason for the "reverse"
migrations from MVS to VSE when VSE/ESA became available (giving XA I/O,
increased real storage support, larger Virtual, etc.). Example: a former
customer of mine migrated from 2 4381s to 2 P/390s. What they did was
very specialized and was handled better using VSE than if they took it
off to PCs or *NIX.

Also, running on very small machines is an advantage. The equivalent MVS
system would take how much more in hardware resources? And the reason
for that is all the other stuff that MVS has that those VSE customers
don't see a need for. And that aforementioned customer paid for the two
P/390s just on the A/C savings alone (in the first 2 months!) by getting
rid of the 4381s and ALL their devices! And last I checked, they are
still running (10 years later).

Then there are a few US State entities that are running VSE. They can't
justify the cost to migrate, nor do they want/need to because their
"OLD" VSE system does exactly what they need it for.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

-- Opinions expressed are strictly mine --

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM]

"R.S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
> [...]
> > The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still with us is probably
because
> > they ultimately offer a different set of benefits to their users.
> 
> Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist
on 
> mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk of starting new war
I 
> can provide some examples:
> a) VSE. It is obsolete, insecure, in fact "moribound". Oftenly it is
run 
> on very small machines, so this workload could be easily run on
cheaper 
> platform. The problem is nobody migrated the application.
> b) IMS. Yeah, I know that many big companies still use it and are very

> happy of it. Question is how many *new* applications are IMS-based,
why 
> other platforms do not have IMS-like database. They have DB2 and other

> relational databases, but not IMS.
> c) ISAM. It is dead now. Death sentence was known for 30+ years. Even 
> few years ago there still were shops using ISAM files.
> d) TPF. Similar status to VSE.
> 
> -- 
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland

Radoslaw,

I don't agree with you on several of your points, also in former
discussions on this forum, in my opinion you stepped too easily over
things that had their roots in history and had them there for valid
reasons. This is true for your IMS vs. DB2 remarks.

I must fully contradict you on TPF. It never was, is and will be a
broadly used OS, because is is very specialized to process high volumes
of transactions. We run over 1000 transactions/second in peak periods
and we aren't even a large TPF site, large sites run many thousands
transactions per second. But it is definitely not dead at all: we have
started the project to migrate to z/TPF, the name alone already should
indicate its strategic future.

Kees.
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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Tom Harper]

Radoslaw,

Let me give a different view about IMS. If one takes a different
perspective and looks at the historical timeline, many companies
developed their core infrastructure applications during the 1970's, and
IMS was well-suited for it. These applications have proved enduring and
scalable, and there has been no economic reason to displace them.
Granted, there were applications placed there which should not have
been, and most of those have been re-hosted, but in general they are
there because they work, and they work economically, reliably, and well.

Once the core infrastructure applications were in place, other
applications, which were deferred and were complementary to the core
applications, such as ad hoc queries, etc., exploited new relational
data bases and platforms. Email, spreadsheets, and a host of other
applications fall into this same category.

And by the way, when new financial institutions start up, such as in
China and south-east Asia, what platform do they use? IMS, as it turns
out. IBM has had double-digit new license IMS growth in these areas for
some time now.

Tom Harper
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: 

Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist on

mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk of starting new war I

can provide some examples:
a) VSE. It is obsolete, insecure, in fact "moribound". Oftenly it is run

on very small machines, so this workload could be easily run on cheaper 
platform. The problem is nobody migrated the application.
b) IMS. Yeah, I know that many big companies still use it and are very 
happy of it. Question is how many *new* applications are IMS-based, why 
other platforms do not have IMS-like database. They have DB2 and other 
relational databases, but not IMS.
c) ISAM. It is dead now. Death sentence was known for 30+ years. Even 
few years ago there still were shops using ISAM files.
d) TPF. Similar status to VSE.

-- 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[R.S.]

Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
[...]

The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still with us is probably because
they ultimately offer a different set of benefits to their users.


Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist on 
mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk of starting new war I 
can provide some examples:
a) VSE. It is obsolete, insecure, in fact "moribound". Oftenly it is run 
on very small machines, so this workload could be easily run on cheaper 
platform. The problem is nobody migrated the application.
b) IMS. Yeah, I know that many big companies still use it and are very 
happy of it. Question is how many *new* applications are IMS-based, why 
other platforms do not have IMS-like database. They have DB2 and other 
relational databases, but not IMS.
c) ISAM. It is dead now. Death sentence was known for 30+ years. Even 
few years ago there still were shops using ISAM files.

d) TPF. Similar status to VSE.

--
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Lodz, Poland


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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 10/09/2007
   at 11:36 AM, Anton Britz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Tell me , what should I invest my money in ?

SCOX.
 
-- 
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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Mohammad Khan]

Anton
Could you include some links to these papers ?
Mohammad

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:26:51 -0500, Anton Britz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>b) Facts to support my views ?  I was pointing you to papers available on the
>Web. I can not write 50 pages in the middle of a "bar" because maybe you
>have seen some of these already... I did say, if you have never seen any of
>these papers to tell me so and then I know what information you need to be
>given. That is why I asked you the question..

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

Sure.. you can "wonder" like most people do in a bar but you must have
concluded that people make decisions about Database Software emotionally...

Eventually IBM plays the "fear" factor as can be seen in the politics of 
the day.

As in American politics...  Religious factor in Israel...

It works.. up to a point and then reality sinks in for some.

So rather ask your "Database expert" what does his bible say you should  be
doing and then you can finish your beer while he tries to be serious.

For all the "Wanna bee" consultants ? next time... ask more questions 
before you decide on what to say.


Herbie: You can not ignore me if I come up the Ireland Airport 
bathroom... I will be devastated.


Anton

Itschak Mugzach wrote:
Anton, 


I am not in a stage I have to select an Enterprise database. I just wondered
IF (Adabas is faster, as I was told) and WHY (IBM and others don't ask for
TPC tests for Mainframe DBs). 


Should I regret asking that?


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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Van Dalsen, Herbie]

Anton,

 

The original question was " ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster", I
know that the thread has been abused to propagate someone's so-called
expertise, it has also been abused to rant...

 a) My opening statement was referring to "what you hear on your
TV these 

days" and the Geneva conventions.  Never mind... 

 

Yet and foremost... the original point I was making is... It is not
necessary the DB that makes it faster/slower... It is most probably
good/poor DB design...

 

In any case, I am now officially joining the crowd that ignore your
emails, so please don't bother... the way you abuse threads to annoy
people just astounds me, so please practice what you preach and stick to
the issue in hand when answering threads. I mean the way that you
question people's integrity/knowledge/experience... you must be some
supreme being... I mean statements like "Where I come from, we..."
honestly... where would that be???

 

:-)

 

Herbie

 


Elavon Financial Services Limited
Registered in Ireland: Number 418442
Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, 
Co. Dublin, Ireland
Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins,  Terrance Dolan (USA),  Pamela 
Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson
Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the 
Financial Regulator

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[CICS Guy]

Jeez..
 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:50 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
 
Herbie,
 
Just think about what you type in the "Subject line" of your postings...  
 
If you change it, you start another discussion THREAD and then you will be 
ignored. Nobody will pay any attention to your point... Not sure if you get 
it...
 
Conclusion :  
 
All the other things you should not worry about "in a bar"... 
 
Just get yourself another Guinness and go watch the rugby.
 
 

_
Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!
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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Herbie,

Just think about what you type in the "Subject line" of your postings...  

If you change it, you start another discussion THREAD and then you will be 
ignored. Nobody will pay any attention to your point... Not sure if you get 
it...

Conclusion :  

All the other things you should not worry about "in a bar"... 

Just get yourself another Guinness and go watch the rugby.

Anton


On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:33:18 +0100, Van Dalsen, Herbie 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Anton,
>
> 
>
>Aren't you just a very diligent guy, my heart goes out to you,:-)
>honestly, you must be working at least bout 19?  hours a day to give
>your employer value for his money especially as you are spending at
>least ??? of them guarding our list for us... good job!!! That is to say
>if you aren't working for AU.EDU themselves as a guard dog to scrutinize
>everyone's motives, qualifications, and list etiquette. It amazes me
>that the owner of this list have not barred your user-id yet. I wonder
>if you would dare to show your face at a share, or do you fear the
>possibility that someone might take you aside and explain a few things
>to you in a clearer manner?
>
> 
>
>:-)
>
> 
>
>Herbie
>
>
>Elavon Financial Services Limited
>Registered in Ireland: Number 418442
>Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, 
Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland
>Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins,  Terrance Dolan (USA),  Pamela 
Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson
>Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the 
Financial Regulator
>
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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Van Dalsen, Herbie]

Anton,

 

Aren't you just a very diligent guy, my heart goes out to you,:-)
honestly, you must be working at least bout 19?  hours a day to give
your employer value for his money especially as you are spending at
least ??? of them guarding our list for us... good job!!! That is to say
if you aren't working for AU.EDU themselves as a guard dog to scrutinize
everyone's motives, qualifications, and list etiquette. It amazes me
that the owner of this list have not barred your user-id yet. I wonder
if you would dare to show your face at a share, or do you fear the
possibility that someone might take you aside and explain a few things
to you in a clearer manner?

 

:-)

 

Herbie


Elavon Financial Services Limited
Registered in Ireland: Number 418442
Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, 
Co. Dublin, Ireland
Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins,  Terrance Dolan (USA),  Pamela 
Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson
Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the 
Financial Regulator

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Mohammed,

I will explain what I meant in my posting :


a) My opening statement was refering to "what you hear on your TV these 
days" and the Geneva conventions.  Never mind...
b) Facts to support my views ?  I was pointing you to papers available on the 
Web. I can not write 50 pages in the middle of a "bar" because maybe you 
have seen some of these already... I did say, if you have never seen any of 
these papers to tell me so and then I know what information you need to be 
given. That is why I asked you the question.. Go back and look..
c) My reference to "cars and books available about cars" was trying to explain 
to you that all these comparisions about Databases etc. are available. People 
just do not read them and prefer to stick to their current opinions.

My apology for talking in hieroglyphics but in a bar, some people only need 
half 
a word to understand the full message.

Anton

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi Herbie,

Thanks for the posting but if you'all keep the "Subject line" the same , the 
discussions stay in the same thread.

Some of us only read certain threads in here...

You have a valid point but that was not the original question.

Anton

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Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Jon Brock]

It's funny you should mention the provided utilities.  IBM recently
(last year?  The year before?) unbundled at least some of their
utilities from the base DBMS.  You have to buy them separately now.  

Jon




Also, I believe that there are more DB2 and IMS utilities available than
there 
are for ADABAS. The original question did not mention maintaining the 
products only using the provided utilities.


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Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Chris Taylor]

Could you ask your expert if ADABAS exploits SMS? As far as I know, an 
ADABAS database is a set of pre-formatted datasets and needs to be 
extended using ADABAS utilities? Since IMS and DB2 are able to extend using 
SMS rules, that would be one positive aspect of maintainability.

Also, I believe that there are more DB2 and IMS utilities available than there 
are for ADABAS. The original question did not mention maintaining the 
products only using the provided utilities.

Chris Taylor

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Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Mohammad Khan]

I've started wondering who that expert was. There is a lot of passionate 
defense coming from Anton.

Mohammad


On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:08:28 -0400, John S. Giltner, Jr. 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>You seem to make a point to question other knowledge and ask them to
>explain what makes them an "expert".
>
>
>And just how do you know how much this "Adabas expert" knows about IMS
>and DB2?
>
>What makes him right?
>

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Mohammad Khan]

Anton

>Just to show that I do not have anything against any "Mohammed" out there :

I don't have anything against Antons either, though I do find the name 
Bhootnath a little spooky.

>
>Questions :
>
>a) How many "shops" that tried to convert , have you spoken too
>b) How many conversions have you done because it sounds like I challenged
>your "Db2 knowledge"... which was not part of the original question or
>statement.
>c) Do you think people convert to DB2 because it's faster, uses more of WLM
>etc.

Instead of telling the reasons of why you blame failed conversions on IBM / 
DB2 you have come up with irrelevant questions. Some facts to support your 
views would have been better. 

>
>Summary :
>
>There is various papers available "today" that will explain the findings of 
>these
>conversion efforts and none of it has anything to do with "how much of DB2 
do
>you really know".
>

So now you are bringing in some more opinions to support your opinion. Is it so 
difficult to come up with supporting facts ? BTW I've also come across papers 
that predicted the death of mainframes and I'm still working on one.


>Never mind... let me just say that in the USA, I have never seen so many
>books on "car ratings" and people still justify to their loved ones, buying 
>junk..
>total junk and they are 100% convinced, they are driving the best out there.
>

And what's the problem here ? Are they buying those junk cars with YOUR 
money ? I'd say all the power to them and let them enjoy their favorite car.

>You just keep on driving !! ( just do not vote please... we all need to hope 
>for
>a miracle )

I'm afraid you will have to translate this one (English is only a second 
language 
for me). What miracle are you hoping for ? Is my vote going to spoil it in some 
way ?

Mohammad

>
>Anton
>
>On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:56:59 -0500, Mohammad Khan
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>And what makes you believe it to be IBM's or DB2's fault ? Conversion crew's
>>lack of DB2 expertise might have been a reason.
>>

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Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?

[Van Dalsen, Herbie]

Itschak,

I started in the COBOL arena, I briefly programmed in Natural/ADABAS for
the SA Revenue back in the 80's and touched on DB2 when I managed 3 DB2
training systems for IBM SA back in 96-98. They were DB2 of course.

My thinking is this... Natural is very easy to program, but very
expensive to run in terms of CPU usage, at least it was back then,
compared to the pre-Natural code... When I look at DB2, you can have it
running very efficiently by doing proper systems analysis and by
preventing expensive SQL statements. In my experience it is the
incorrect use of SQL combined with the fear if more indexes(mainly
because it costs disk space), that would ultimately make any one of them
less efficient.

The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still with us is probably because
they ultimately offer a different set of benefits to their users.

Regards

Herbie

Elavon Financial Services Limited
Registered in Ireland: Number 418442
Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, 
Co. Dublin, Ireland
Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins,  Terrance Dolan (USA),  Pamela 
Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson
Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the 
Financial Regulator

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Itschak Mugzach]

Anton, 

I am not in a stage I have to select an Enterprise database. I just wondered
IF (Adabas is faster, as I was told) and WHY (IBM and others don't ask for
TPC tests for Mainframe DBs). 

Should I regret asking that? 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Anton Britz
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:46 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

Hi,

Phew... why did I not just stay out of this in the first place ?

Ok...as Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes, "All we need is a leader with
integrity, can listen and make reasonably conclusions"... so let me try and
do some of this :

You are suppose to first find out why people are asking you the question
but I am going to skip that part and just assume I am in a bar , after a
football game and somebody  just wants to show he knows something..

The Questions that was asked in this thread :

a) I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS
is much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2

Answer : Yes

b) The relative speed that is important is the one for *YOUR* workload.
Anything else is meaningless noise. Thoroughly research the *features*
important to you and go with the product that provides the best feature to
price ratio for you.

Answer : Yes.. from a Capacity point of view.. when you are thinking of 
upgrading your CPU.   This argument is not applicable to the original
question

c) IMS is a hierarchal database, and thus uses vastly different data
storage/retrieval paradigms when compared to ADABAS or DB2.

Answer : True but again, that is not what the original requestor wanted to
know.

d) "ADABAS  doesn't scale to
really large applications the way DB2 does and it doesn't let you keep the
database up while some portion of the database is having utilities run."

Not true.. I know of some sites that could not convert Adabas Databases to
DB2.  IBM kids told them to convert but after 6 months decided they need
other IBM kids to help them and kept the data in Adabas.

e) Moral Compass ?

Answer: I said enough about this posting

f) Did I stumble into a dark closet and find myself trapped in a job
interview?

Answer : No, you are in a bar and everybody thinks they are experts and
wants to be treated as such and you contributed to making this discussion a
bar environment. Get you self a beer from the barman... She is Blonde and
she would love to talk to people like you.

g) ADABAS fully supports a sysplex and can actually scale quite well ?

Answer: Kelly, your Mother should be proud of you but it depends who asks
the question and if they really know what a SYSPLEX is etc. etc. etc.

h) I wonder why TPC-C tests are only done for the distributed platforms
databases (or their DP versions). Within its members are IBM, Oracle (MF
version) Sybase(the same) and others. Maybe, because TPC heard (too early, I
must say) that the mainframe is dead? 

Answer: Because that is where the cooperates are spending money these days.
Not sure why you are still in the "Which Database should I run on my
Mainframe" stage.. Everybody wants to make the Mainframe data available to
the WEB at this point or they want to run applications on "cheap"
distributed Operating Systems ex. Like my DVR's at home.. it's all Motorola
DCH6416 boxes and if you go to the Motorola Web site, they allow you to
write Java 
applications for the DVR in you house.   IN YOUR HOUSE.

http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/

Summary: In any case, as I said in my opening statement ,you need to first
find out why you are being asked the question and I did not do that but very
few of us really know what Israel is up too these days. 

Enough said...  and this is my last posting, for those that had enough of
this serious talk in a bar.

Anton Britz


On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:50:30 -0400, Jon Brock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>. . . except that you haven't done anything to answer the original 
>question, from Itschak: " I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS 
>specialist that claimed that ADABAS is much faster and has low overhead 
>compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?"

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Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[John S. Giltner, Jr.]

You seem to make a point to question other knowledge and ask them to 
explain what makes them an "expert".



And just how do you know how much this "Adabas expert" knows about IMS 
and DB2?


What makes him right?

Anton Britz wrote:



Let's focus ?   The original question was " Who is faster, use the least 
resources and is easier to maintain ?"  and the answer :


There is no doubt that the "Adabas expert" was correct as specified in the 
FIRST posting.


Anton



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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Mohammed,

Just to show that I do not have anything against any "Mohammed" out there :

Questions :

a) How many "shops" that tried to convert , have you spoken too 
b) How many conversions have you done because it sounds like I challenged 
your "Db2 knowledge"... which was not part of the original question or 
statement.
c) Do you think people convert to DB2 because it's faster, uses more of WLM 
etc.

Summary :

There is various papers available "today" that will explain the findings of 
these 
conversion efforts and none of it has anything to do with "how much of DB2 do 
you really know".

Never mind... let me just say that in the USA, I have never seen so many 
books on "car ratings" and people still justify to their loved ones, buying 
junk.. 
total junk and they are 100% convinced, they are driving the best out there.

You just keep on driving !! ( just do not vote please... we all need to hope 
for 
a miracle )

Anton

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:56:59 -0500, Mohammad Khan 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>And what makes you believe it to be IBM's or DB2's fault ? Conversion crew's
>lack of DB2 expertise might have been a reason.
>
>Mohammad

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Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anton Britz
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 3:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

Hi,

Jon wants us all to "play nicely" and I would try and show respect to
the other innocent participants :


I figured it was only a threat. Oh well, eventually I will get my troll
rule to work.

Tchuss!

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Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

Jon wants us all to "play nicely" and I would try and show respect to the other 
innocent participants :

a) "GENTLEMAN"

In Idaho we don't talk about these things any more, only about those that can 
stretch their legs real wide in a Airport bathroom and live on a private Yacht 
Club.

b) WLM uses the DB2 requester's DP. This way your
>online
>requests are privileged in comparation with batch requests (If online
>service
>classes are superior to batch ones).

Answer : True... this has been a problem in Adabas in the 80's but since the 
80's, software has been written to solve this problem and the Software AG 
solution is much less overhead than the DB2 solution.

Conclusion :

Let's focus ?   The original question was " Who is faster, use the least 
resources and is easier to maintain ?"  and the answer :

There is no doubt that the "Adabas expert" was correct as specified in the 
FIRST posting.

Anton


On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:16:19 -0300, ITURIEL DO NASCIMENTO NETO 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Gentlemen,
>
>Let's try to focus.
>
>As a sysprog i don't know which one is faster or causes less overhead,
>but there is a point not commented out. For accounting purposes, DB2
>does not
>consume any amount of CPU when processing SQL commads. It repasses this
>CPU to the client address space.
>
>There is another point, WLM uses the DB2 requester's DP. This way your
>online
>requests are privileged in comparation with batch requests (If online
>service
>classes are superior to batch ones). As far as i know ADABAS process
>batch or
>online requests the same way.

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Mohammad Khan]

And what makes you believe it to be IBM's or DB2's fault ? Conversion crew's 
lack of DB2 expertise might have been a reason.

Mohammad


On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:45:41 -0500, Anton Britz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:


>
>d) "ADABAS  doesn't scale to
>really large applications the way DB2 does and it doesn't let you keep the
>database up while some portion of the database is having utilities run."
>
>Not true.. I know of some sites that could not convert Adabas Databases to
>DB2.  IBM kids told them to convert but after 6 months decided they need
>other IBM kids to help them and kept the data in Adabas.
> 

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Jon Brock]

Two excellent points.  The first design decision mentioned -- re
resource accounting -- is helpful in many ways but makes this particular
comparison fairly difficult.  

It is also worth noting -- and I think someone may have already
mentioned this -- that different DBMSes often perform well at different
tasks.  One DBMS may scream along at sequential processing but choke on
lots of random table accesses.  You're back to the old "how do you write
the benchmarks" question.

Jon



As a sysprog i don't know which one is faster or causes less overhead, 
but there is a point not commented out. For accounting purposes, DB2
does not 
consume any amount of CPU when processing SQL commads. It repasses this
CPU to the client address space.

There is another point, WLM uses the DB2 requester's DP. This way your
online
requests are privileged in comparation with batch requests (If online
service
classes are superior to batch ones). As far as i know ADABAS process
batch or
online requests the same way. 


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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Thompson, Steve]

Enough said...  and this is my last posting, for those that had enough
of this serious talk in a bar.

Anton Britz


One can only hope.

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RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[ITURIEL DO NASCIMENTO NETO]

Gentlemen,

Let's try to focus.

As a sysprog i don't know which one is faster or causes less overhead, 
but there is a point not commented out. For accounting purposes, DB2
does not 
consume any amount of CPU when processing SQL commads. It repasses this
CPU to the client address space.

There is another point, WLM uses the DB2 requester's DP. This way your
online
requests are privileged in comparation with batch requests (If online
service
classes are superior to batch ones). As far as i know ADABAS process
batch or
online requests the same way. 


Atenciosamente / Regards / Saludos

Ituriel do Nascimento Neto 
Banco Bradesco S/A 
4254/DPCD Alphaville 
Engenharia de Software - Sistemas Operacionais Mainframes 
 
Tel: 55 11 4197-2021 Fax: 55 11 4197-2814 


-Mensagem original-
De: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Em nome
de Jim McAlpine
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 10 de outubro de 2007 12:55
Para: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Assunto: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

On 10/10/07, Anton Britz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the last 30
years.
> Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2 courses in Dallas

> but then again, if you where subscribed to any of the Database email 
> lists, I would not have to introduce myself to you.


So, with all your experience in this field, do you have a better answer
than Allans "it depends" or are you just content to rubbish someone
else's attempt at replying to the OPs question.

Jim McAlpine

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

Phew... why did I not just stay out of this in the first place ?

Ok...as Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes, "All we need is a leader with 
integrity, can listen and make reasonably conclusions"... so let me try and do 
some of this :

You are suppose to first find out why people are asking you the question  but I 
am going to skip that part and just assume I am in a bar , after a football 
game and somebody  just wants to show he knows something..

The Questions that was asked in this thread :

a) I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2

Answer : Yes

b) The relative speed that is important is the one for *YOUR* workload.
Anything else is meaningless noise. Thoroughly research the *features*
important to you and go with the product that provides the best feature
to price ratio for you.

Answer : Yes.. from a Capacity point of view.. when you are thinking of 
upgrading your CPU.   This argument is not applicable to the original question

c) IMS is a hierarchal database, and thus uses vastly different data
storage/retrieval paradigms when compared to ADABAS or DB2.

Answer : True but again, that is not what the original requestor wanted to 
know.

d) "ADABAS  doesn't scale to
really large applications the way DB2 does and it doesn't let you keep the
database up while some portion of the database is having utilities run."

Not true.. I know of some sites that could not convert Adabas Databases to 
DB2.  IBM kids told them to convert but after 6 months decided they need 
other IBM kids to help them and kept the data in Adabas.

e) Moral Compass ?

Answer: I said enough about this posting

f) Did I stumble into a dark closet and find myself trapped in a job interview?

Answer : No, you are in a bar and everybody thinks they are experts and 
wants to be treated as such and you contributed to making this discussion a 
bar environment. Get you self a beer from the barman... She is Blonde and she 
would love to talk to people like you.

g) ADABAS fully supports a sysplex and can actually scale quite well ?

Answer: Kelly, your Mother should be proud of you but it depends who asks 
the question and if they really know what a SYSPLEX is etc. etc. etc.

h) I wonder why TPC-C tests are only done for the distributed platforms
databases (or their DP versions). Within its members are IBM, Oracle (MF
version) Sybase(the same) and others. Maybe, because TPC heard (too early, I
must say) that the mainframe is dead? 

Answer: Because that is where the cooperates are spending money these 
days. Not sure why you are still in the "Which Database should I run on my 
Mainframe" stage.. Everybody wants to make the Mainframe data available to 
the WEB at this point or they want to run applications on "cheap" distributed 
Operating Systems ex. Like my DVR's at home.. it's all Motorola DCH6416 boxes 
and if you go to the Motorola Web site, they allow you to write Java 
applications for the DVR in you house.   IN YOUR HOUSE.

http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/

Summary: In any case, as I said in my opening statement ,you need to first 
find out why you are being asked the question and I did not do that but very 
few of us really know what Israel is up too these days. 

Enough said...  and this is my last posting, for those that had enough of this 
serious talk in a bar.

Anton Britz


On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:50:30 -0400, Jon Brock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>. . . except that you haven't done anything to answer the original
>question, from Itschak: " I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist
>that claimed that ADABAS is
>much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?"

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Anton Britz

How did you get out of my killfile??

Well, since you're here (for now).

> Summary:
> 
> Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the 
> last 30 years.

Yet, in the quoted portions of your posts to the subject question that
I've seen, you've offered precisely NOTHING beyond what most here
consider to be disparaging remarks to those who did offer facts or
opinions.  Care to explain why?

> Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2 courses 
> in Dallas but then again, if you where subscribed to any of 
> the Database email lists, I would not have to introduce myself to you.
> 
> Note: These postings I had a "pot shot at" was people making 
> statements about things they knew nothing about zero.. zippo .

Again, from what I've seen in the quoted parts of your posts, you have
offered precisely NOTHING  to the subject question.  Why is that?  Are
you just "book smart but street dumb"?

> Maybe their wives/grandmothers would be impressed with their 
> statements but please, do not expect us to "clap" on an "IBM 
> Technical list"... 
> 
> You are insulting my intelligence, my experience and 
> everything I got paid for, for the last 30 years.

You are, of course, entirely free to leave whenever you wish.

Now, back into the killfile with you!

-jc-

*PLONK*

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Jim McAlpine]

On 10/10/07, Anton Britz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the last 30 years.
> Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2 courses in Dallas but
> then again, if you where subscribed to any of the Database email lists, I
> would
> not have to introduce myself to you.


So, with all your experience in this field, do you have a better answer than
Allans "it depends" or are you just content to rubbish someone else's
attempt at replying to the OPs question.

Jim McAlpine

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Jon Brock]

. . . except that you haven't done anything to answer the original
question, from Itschak: " I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist
that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?"

Radoslaw and Allan, among others, have actually attempted answers.  So
far, all you have done is say "Nuh,uh.  They don't know what they're
talking about."  

I have insulted nothing and no one.  All I have done is ask for a more
constructive answer than the above.

Jon




I do not subscribe to this list to "take a Pot Shot at any one" but as
they 
taught me in the "Dale Carnegie courses" many years a'go, you should
always 
state your point clearly otherwise some people might not "get it"..

The Point I was trying to make :

Would you subscribe to the "embryonic stem cells research" email list
and then 
propose to Oliver Smithies, Martin Evans and Mario Capecchi what to do ?

Summary:

Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the last 30 years.
Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2 courses in Dallas
but 
then again, if you where subscribed to any of the Database email lists,
I would 
not have to introduce myself to you.

Note: These postings I had a "pot shot at" was people making statements 
about things they knew nothing about zero.. zippo .
Maybe their wives/grandmothers would be impressed with their statements
but 
please, do not expect us to "clap" on an "IBM Technical list"... 

You are insulting my intelligence, my experience and everything I got
paid for, 
for the last 30 years.


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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

"Pot Shot at some one" ?

I do not subscribe to this list to "take a Pot Shot at any one" but as they 
taught me in the "Dale Carnegie courses" many years a'go, you should always 
state your point clearly otherwise some people might not "get it"..

The Point I was trying to make :

Would you subscribe to the "embryonic stem cells research" email list and then 
propose to Oliver Smithies, Martin Evans and Mario Capecchi what to do ?

Summary:

Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the last 30 years.
Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2 courses in Dallas but 
then again, if you where subscribed to any of the Database email lists, I would 
not have to introduce myself to you.

Note: These postings I had a "pot shot at" was people making statements 
about things they knew nothing about zero.. zippo .
Maybe their wives/grandmothers would be impressed with their statements but 
please, do not expect us to "clap" on an "IBM Technical list"... 

You are insulting my intelligence, my experience and everything I got paid for, 
for the last 30 years.

Anton


On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:12:36 -0400, Jon Brock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Did you have a different answer than Allan's "It depends," or were
>simply taking the opportunity once again to take a potshot at someone
>for no good reason?
>
>Jon
>

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Jon Brock]

Did you have a different answer than Allan's "It depends," or were
simply taking the opportunity once again to take a potshot at someone
for no good reason?

Jon

 


Summarized :

a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user

but you are talking about :

a) SQL 
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using

Summarized :

Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is
also 
experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an IBM
technical 
list"...

Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice
too..


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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Itschak Mugzach]

Boys, please relax. 

I wonder why TPC-C tests are only done for the distributed platforms
databases (or their DP versions). Within its members are IBM, Oracle (MF
version) Sybase(the same) and others. Maybe, because TPC heard (too early, I
must say) that the mainframe is dead? 

Itschak 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jones, Kelly (Indust, PTL)
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

Hello Mike,

Most of the restrictions in the classes you mentioned disappeared from
ADABAS years ago.  In our shop we yo-yo the ADABAS databases weekly - though
I know many shops that yo-yo the database only when an IPL is required.  We
run backups every day - this can be done on only those blocks that have
changed, only certain files, while in use ...
Production changes can be implemented on the fly - new fields, new indexes
... can be made while the file being modified is in use.

ADABAS fully supports a sysplex and can actually scale quite well.  I have
practically no DB2 or IMS experience so am not able to compare.

An optional optimizing compiler can be purchased for Natural.  I've seen the
code it generates (it's good) and benchmarked it against optimized COBOL -
Natural won every test, from highly computational, to highly i/o bound.  I
don't know what troubles you were having but things have changed a lot.

ADABAS does not support SQL but an interface can be purchased from Software
AG or a couple other vendors.

Best Regards

Kelly Jones
Penske Logistics


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mike Bell
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

I supported ADABAS for 2 years about 20 years ago.  What I remember was the
SVC that modified itself and still running with 24 bit addressability.
Don't get me wrong - I could write amazing programs in Natural in just a
couple of hours but the other restrictions were painfull.  Went on an
interview for a DB2 job and discovered they still had ADABAS - asked how
they managed it - basically they created a new ADABAS collection for every
application area that wanted it. You have to backup the entire database -
can't select one application and create a backup point.

Started working as IMS DBA with 1.1.5 - I think - been applications, system
DBA and sysprog. Never did past path but all combinations of HDAM, HIDAM,
SHISAM, etc It is very difficult to beat the performance of a properly
designed HDAM application unless the users require a half dozen secondary
indexes. Problem was the 2G/4G dataset limit - IBM didn't release
partitioned database until V9.  Yes, you could move segments to a separate
dataset (max of 10) but it created performance problems as often as solving
them. People did all kinds of unusual design work to support more than 4G of
data.  One place had a dozen PCB's that were selected by application based
on key range.

first supported DB2 as sysprog on 1.2. My mistake of being in the IMS group
and saying it isn't that hard - just another database -setup 1,2,3 write a
userid exit and let the applications groups go. SQL is different. It
requires a different type of design.  I think it is harder to build a  good
SQL design than IMS because you have so many choices and the SQL hides the
performance impact of those choices.The ability to use big bufferpools can
also hide bad design.  It can still meet response time goals but use more
resources than it should. The other part is that DB2 started with a 64G
limit and has expanded that multiple times.

ADABAS does use less memory and disk space than DB2 but it doesn't scale to
really large applications the way DB2 does and it doesn't let you keep the
database up while some portion of the database is having utilities run.

Mike


On 10/7/07, Itschak Mugzach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that 
> ADABAS is much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is
this true?
>
> Itschak
>
> --
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>



--
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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Jones, Kelly (Indust, PTL)]

Hello Mike,

Most of the restrictions in the classes you mentioned disappeared from
ADABAS years ago.  In our shop we yo-yo the ADABAS databases weekly -
though I know many shops that yo-yo the database only when an IPL is
required.  We run backups every day - this can be done on only those
blocks that have changed, only certain files, while in use ...
Production changes can be implemented on the fly - new fields, new
indexes ... can be made while the file being modified is in use.

ADABAS fully supports a sysplex and can actually scale quite well.  I
have practically no DB2 or IMS experience so am not able to compare.

An optional optimizing compiler can be purchased for Natural.  I've seen
the code it generates (it's good) and benchmarked it against optimized
COBOL - Natural won every test, from highly computational, to highly i/o
bound.  I don't know what troubles you were having but things have
changed a lot.

ADABAS does not support SQL but an interface can be purchased from
Software AG or a couple other vendors.

Best Regards

Kelly Jones
Penske Logistics


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Bell
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

I supported ADABAS for 2 years about 20 years ago.  What I remember was
the SVC that modified itself and still running with 24 bit
addressability.
Don't get me wrong - I could write amazing programs in Natural in just a
couple of hours but the other restrictions were painfull.  Went on an
interview for a DB2 job and discovered they still had ADABAS - asked how
they managed it - basically they created a new ADABAS collection for
every application area that wanted it. You have to backup the entire
database - can't select one application and create a backup point.

Started working as IMS DBA with 1.1.5 - I think - been applications,
system DBA and sysprog. Never did past path but all combinations of
HDAM, HIDAM, SHISAM, etc It is very difficult to beat the performance of
a properly designed HDAM application unless the users require a half
dozen secondary indexes. Problem was the 2G/4G dataset limit - IBM
didn't release partitioned database until V9.  Yes, you could move
segments to a separate dataset (max of 10) but it created performance
problems as often as solving them. People did all kinds of unusual
design work to support more than 4G of data.  One place had a dozen
PCB's that were selected by application based on key range.

first supported DB2 as sysprog on 1.2. My mistake of being in the IMS
group and saying it isn't that hard - just another database -setup 1,2,3
write a userid exit and let the applications groups go. SQL is
different. It requires a different type of design.  I think it is harder
to build a  good SQL design than IMS because you have so many choices
and the SQL hides the performance impact of those choices.The ability to
use big bufferpools can also hide bad design.  It can still meet
response time goals but use more resources than it should. The other
part is that DB2 started with a 64G limit and has expanded that multiple
times.

ADABAS does use less memory and disk space than DB2 but it doesn't scale
to really large applications the way DB2 does and it doesn't let you
keep the database up while some portion of the database is having
utilities run.

Mike


On 10/7/07, Itschak Mugzach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that 
> ADABAS is much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is
this true?
>
> Itschak
>
> --
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> email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO 
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>



--
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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

I am 100% convinced, the computer world in the USA is like another "Iraq 
story"...

Here we have another person that worked with Adabas 20 years a'go and he 
wants to compare Databases.

You can be succesful in the USA ... hang in there.. "stay the course".

Anton Britz


7 13:23:49 -0500, Mike Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I supported ADABAS for 2 years about 20 years ago.  What I remember was 
the

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

Come on "Cics guy"...

There is a lot of us reading most of this junk on IBM-MAIN and :

a) Asking a question
b) Making a statement on what you really know well 

is acceptably to most... 

but how big is your World if you make a signon called "Cics Guy" and then want 
to talk about morality ?

Oh, I get it.. you do not like me referring to the people you voted for.

Anton Britz  ( this is my real name )

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:30:05 -0400, CICS Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>Thank goodness our moral compass is still around...

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anthony Saul Babonas]

Did I stumble into a dark closet and find myself trapped in a job interview?


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of CICS Guy
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

Thank goodness our moral compass is still around...
 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Tuesday, October
09, 2007 12:37 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2
Who is faster?
 
Hi,
 
Summarized :
 
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user
 
but you are talking about :
 
a) SQL
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using
 
Summarized :
 
Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is also
experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an IBM
technical list"...
 
Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice too..
 
Anton
 

-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Tuesday, October
09, 2007 12:37 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2
Who is faster?
 
Hi,
 
Summarized :
 
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user
 
but you are talking about :
 
a) SQL
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using
 
Summarized :
 
Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is also
experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an IBM
technical list"...
 
Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice too..
 
Anton
 
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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[CICS Guy]

Thank goodness our moral compass is still around...
 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 12:37 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
 
Hi,
 
Summarized :
 
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user
 
but you are talking about :
 
a) SQL 
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using
 
Summarized :
 
Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is also 
experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an IBM technical 
list"...
 
Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice too..
 
Anton
 

-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 12:37 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
 
Hi,
 
Summarized :
 
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user
 
but you are talking about :
 
a) SQL 
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using
 
Summarized :
 
Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is also 
experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an IBM technical 
list"...
 
Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice too..
 
Anton
 
_
Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!
http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Mike Bell]

I supported ADABAS for 2 years about 20 years ago.  What I remember was the
SVC that modified itself and still running with 24 bit addressability.
Don't get me wrong - I could write amazing programs in Natural in just a
couple of hours but the other restrictions were painfull.  Went on an
interview for a DB2 job and discovered they still had ADABAS - asked how
they managed it - basically they created a new ADABAS collection for every
application area that wanted it. You have to backup the entire database -
can't select one application and create a backup point.

Started working as IMS DBA with 1.1.5 - I think - been applications, system
DBA and sysprog. Never did past path but all combinations of HDAM, HIDAM,
SHISAM, etc It is very difficult to beat the performance of a properly
designed HDAM application unless the users require a half dozen secondary
indexes. Problem was the 2G/4G dataset limit - IBM didn't release
partitioned database until V9.  Yes, you could move segments to a separate
dataset (max of 10) but it created performance problems as often as solving
them. People did all kinds of unusual design work to support more than 4G of
data.  One place had a dozen PCB's that were selected by application based
on key range.

first supported DB2 as sysprog on 1.2. My mistake of being in the IMS group
and saying it isn't that hard - just another database -setup 1,2,3 write a
userid exit and let the applications groups go. SQL is different. It
requires a different type of design.  I think it is harder to build a  good
SQL design than IMS because you have so many choices and the SQL hides the
performance impact of those choices.The ability to use big bufferpools can
also hide bad design.  It can still meet response time goals but use more
resources than it should. The other part is that DB2 started with a 64G
limit and has expanded that multiple times.

ADABAS does use less memory and disk space than DB2 but it doesn't scale to
really large applications the way DB2 does and it doesn't let you keep the
database up while some portion of the database is having utilities run.

Mike


On 10/7/07, Itschak Mugzach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
> much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
>
> Itschak
>
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-- 
Mike

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anton Britz
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

Hi,

Summarized :

a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user

but you are talking about :

a) SQL
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using

Summarized :

Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is
also experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an
IBM technical list"...

Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice
too..



PLUNK!

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Hi,

Summarized :

a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user

but you are talking about :

a) SQL 
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using

Summarized :

Are you working for the 'White house" maybe  because everybody there is also 
experts but the funny part ?  "your post your findings to an IBM technical 
list"...

Tell me , what should I invest my money in ? I need investment advice too..

Anton


On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:22:57 -0500, Staller, Allan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>
>Please can you explain to your audience how long have you been around
>and
>how long have you been workling with Adabas, IMS and DB2 ?
>
>
>I have been a MVS systems programmer for about 35 years. I have worked
>with IMS and DB2 for about 5 years. I have never worked with ADABAS.
>I have no aversion or affinity (currently) to any of the products above.
>None are in my current environment.
>

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Staller, Allan]

Please can you explain to your audience how long have you been around
and 
how long have you been workling with Adabas, IMS and DB2 ?


I have been a MVS systems programmer for about 35 years. I have worked
with IMS and DB2 for about 5 years. I have never worked with ADABAS.
I have no aversion or affinity (currently) to any of the products above.
None are in my current environment.

IMS is a hierarchal database, and thus uses vastly different data
storage/retrieval paradigms when compared to ADABAS or DB2. For single
record update/retrieval (e.g. a banking deposit, account inquiry) IMS
may be very much faster than ADABAS/DB2. For a report type application,
(e.g. show all accounts with activity yesterday) ADABAS/DB2 may very
well be faster that IMS. *IT DEPENDS*.

My reply intent is to say the only right answer is the one that works
for you. In other words caveat emptor. 

I did not mean to disparage the "expert" in your OP. I do not know if
the expert in the OP was a sales engineer, one of your co-workers, or a
"true expert" in ADABAS. Regardless s/he should be able to produce
supporting documentation to back up his/her claim. (e.g. Transactions
rates supported, resources consumed, )

As with most things in this business, *IT DEPENDS*. Anytime a blanket
statement such as X is faster (or better) than Y, objective evidence is
required before a decision is made on that basis alone. This does not
preclude the fact that X may be still be chosen over Y, but the decision
should be based on objective evidence (e.g. Benchmarks, publications by
"neutral" parties, etc.), not on unsupported claims of superiority.

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Anton Britz]

Allan,

Please can you explain to your audience how long have you been around and 
how long have you been workling with Adabas, IMS and DB2 ?

Please define also what type of work have you been doing with all these 
Database software packages, if you can still remember..

Why ?  In the USA there is lots of people that claim that they are "experts".. 
specially if they work in a cage for a big company.

Anton

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:11:23 -0500, Staller, Allan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>
>Subject: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
>I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS
>is
>much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
>
>
>As with most things in this business, it depends.
>
>The first question to ask is "What source are you citing to support your
>claim? Depending on the configuration and tuning options ADABAS may or
>may not be faster than DB2. DB2 may or may not have a smaller footprint
>than ADABAS.
>
>Because IMS uses an entirely different technique to access data, it
>*most likely* is somewhat faster than either IMS or DB2.
>
>In order to obtain this speed, the flexibility of using SQL is
>sacrificed.
>(Actually it is the other way around IMS preceded DB2/ADABAS by several
>years.
>
>The relative speed that is important is the one for *YOUR* workload.
>Anything else is meaningless noise. Thoroughly research the *features*
>important to you and go with the product that provides the best feature
>to price ratio for you.
>
>HTH,
>
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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Staller, Allan]

Subject: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS
is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true? 


As with most things in this business, it depends.

The first question to ask is "What source are you citing to support your
claim? Depending on the configuration and tuning options ADABAS may or
may not be faster than DB2. DB2 may or may not have a smaller footprint
than ADABAS.

Because IMS uses an entirely different technique to access data, it
*most likely* is somewhat faster than either IMS or DB2.

In order to obtain this speed, the flexibility of using SQL is
sacrificed.
(Actually it is the other way around IMS preceded DB2/ADABAS by several
years.

The relative speed that is important is the one for *YOUR* workload.
Anything else is meaningless noise. Thoroughly research the *features*
important to you and go with the product that provides the best feature
to price ratio for you.

HTH,

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Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[R.S.]

Itschak Mugzach wrote:

I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true? 


Apples and oranges. There is no reason to compare speed of IMS to DB2.
IMS is not relational database, so it works in quite different manner.
Adabas vs DB2 comparison? Well, it makes more sense.

In fact, IMS based applications tend to work faster, but AFAIK 
development is much easier on DB2. One can find specific examples, where 
DB2 is faster than IMS, or Adabas is faster than Oracle, but it is 
really hard to find "overall" benchmark.

BTW: Did I mention VSAM applications ?

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ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?

[Itschak Mugzach]

I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true? 

Itschak

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