Re: CICS vs IMS

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <1329350690.69346.yahoomail...@web122113.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, on
02/15/2012
   at 04:04 PM, Frank Swarbrick  said:

>We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a
>while about the differences between how CICS works and how IMS TM
>works.

CICS was designed to run multiple transactions concurrently in a
single region; IMS was designed to run each transaction in a separate
region. The consequence is that IMS protects transactions against each
other but has higher overhead.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[John Weber]

Thank you all for the valuable information.  John

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS

That's not just a suggestion.  It's a requirement.  If you compile a CICS COBOL 
program with DYNAM the compile and link (bind) may succeed, but the program 
will not execute properly under CICS.  (Not sure I've actually ever tried it, 
but I can't imagine any other result based on the documentation.) Frank




>
> From: "McKown, John" 
>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:56 PM
>Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>My suggestion is: Don't use DYNAM for compiling CICS COBOL programs. Change 
>your coding standards from:
>
>CALL 'PGM1'.
>
>to
>MOVE 'PGM1' TO CALLED-PROGRAM.
>CALL CALLED-PROGRAM.
>
>With CALLED-PROGRAM being PIC X(8).
>
>--
>John McKown
>Systems Engineer IV
>IT
>
>Administrative Services Group
>
>HealthMarkets(r)
>
>9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
>(817) 255-3225 phone *
>john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com
>
>Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
>proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
>contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the 
>original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products 
>underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, 
>Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life 
>Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance 
>Company.SM
>
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
>> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Weber
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:48 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
>> 
>> I'm glad the DYNAM/NODYNAM has been brought up.  I have a question 
>> about a CICS application.  It contains sub modules using CALL.
>> 
>> PGM1 (CALL 'PGM2') --> PGM2 (CALL 'PGM3') --> PGM3
>> 
>> Each module is translated/pre-processed and then compiled with DYNAM.
>> 
>> If PGM3 is compiled/linked, then PGM1 and PGM2 must be re-linked.  
>> Can this be avoided?
>> 
>> Thank you...
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
>> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:01 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
>> 
>> With the current CICS and COBOL, you must compile your COBOL with 
>> NODYNAM, as I'm sure you know. "static" CALLs in CICS are still "not 
>> supported". However, with LE, it is now supported to do dynamic CALLs 
>> in COBOL. The dynamically CALLed subroutine still needs to be defined 
>> to CICS. The CICS Language Environment run-time does a CICS LOAD of 
>> the program, then the usual BALR/BASR to actually invoke the 
>> subroutine. The problem that I have with it is that this is not the 
>> equivalent of EXEC CICS LINK. CICS does not "know"
>> that you've transferred control to a different program. And so any 
>> CICS messages, such as abends, in the CALL'd program have the name of 
>> the last program that was invoked via the EXEC CICS LINK type 
>> interface, instead of the real program name.
>> 
>> --
>> John McKown
>> Systems Engineer IV
>> IT
>> 
>> Administrative Services Group
>> 
>> HealthMarkets(r)
>> 
>> 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
>> (817) 255-3225 phone *
>> john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com
>> 
>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential 
>> or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, 
>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of 
>> the original message.
>> HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and 
>> issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The 
>> Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life 
>> Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health 
>> Insurance Company.SM
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] 
>> > On Behalf

Re: CICS vs IMS

[Frank Swarbrick]

Thanks for the information!

It may be worth noting that the issue you bring up can happen as easily with 
CICS.  Or really any situation where more than one person can read/update the 
same record.

Frank




>
> From: Mike Schwab 
>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:28 PM
>Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>
>> 1) How does BMS compare to MFS.  Power, flexibility, ease of use.
>Pretty similar.  One run to create a binary map, one run to create the 
>copybook.
>
>> 2) Does IMS TM have an API for "miscellaneous functions" other than just 
>> sending and receiving data?  Like, does it have (or need) things that 
>> transient data queues, temp storage queues, etc.
>If you have a save area, the call to your program includes the area.
>Yes, you can write to a que file for larger data storage.
>
>> 3) Does IMS TM support VSAM, or just IMS DB and DB2?
>I think you have to create a fake IMS DB definition that reads a
>native VSAM file.
>
>> 4) All CICS transactions run inside a single address space (assuming only 
>> once CICS region, of course).  I believe this to not be the case for IMS TM, 
>> but to be honest I don't really understand how IMS TM works in this regard.  
>> Is there a "control" region that dispatches "transactions" to run each in 
>> their own "message processing region"?
>>
>> 4a) Is the IMS TM (DCCTL?) control region the same region as the IMS DB 
>> (DBCTL) region, assuming you have a DB/DC configuration?
>>
>> Frank
>You can define a region to contain just databases, or just
>transactions, or both.  In addition, you can have Batch message
>programs that can process a file and update your live database while
>online transactions continue.
>
>One problem I have run into is multiple online updates to one or more
>related records.  We solved this by putting a timestamp in the record.
>When you did an inquiry with a potential to update, you put the
>timestamp in MDT hidden fields on the screen.  Then when you went to
>update, if the time stamp does not match, reject the updated because
>database had been updated.  Without the timestamp, you could open 2
>TN3270 session on one PC, browse to the same record(s) in both
>session, then change the text on both screens.  When you press enter
>on the first screen, those changes were applied, then the enter on the
>other screen would change the records (resulting in overlaid text and
>bad keys), after the time stamp it was rejected and the screen was
>refreshed with the new database records.
>-- 
>Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
>Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Bernd Oppolzer]

I'm not really an expert on this topic. We're an IMS shop, but all the 
IMS topics
are hidden behind a site specific application framework, so that most of 
IMS is
not visible to the applications. In my earlier life, I worked at a 
company, which used

CICS on VSE. So my impression is:

- CICS is faster, easier to handle, all transactions in one address 
space, has lots
of features like transient data queues and temp store queues that are 
maybe missing

in IMS, but

- CICS programs need to be reentrant, no static storage allowed - 
because different
transactions used in the same address space share the same copy of the 
load module.
This may be no problem any more with modern LE compilers and WSA 
(writable static
and RENT option, although for example with PL/1 IBM recommends not to 
use it. We
don't use it and tell our developers to make the modules "naturally" 
reentrant - although

IMS doesn't require it)

- IMS doesn't require the modules to be reentrant, because every 
transaction has it's

own region.

- even VSAM files for examples are opened by CICS (once per address space)
and are used not by normal file operations (OPEN FILE(x) in PL/1, for 
example),
but through EXEC CICS commands. This is different for IMS, AFAIK - 
normal file

operations there.

- as a consequence: one misbehaving module in CICS can crash the whole
CICS address space (at least I think so). With IMS, individual regions 
can be recovered

and restarted.

But I may be wrong on some details.

Kind regards

Bernd



Am 16.02.2012 19:56, schrieb Ian Steyn:

Frank,

IMS DC does the same thing as CICS, but completely different.

An IMS control region with its message region function basically like CICSPlex 
with AOR's and TOR's.

Transactions in IMS can be tied to specific message regions and you can have 
several message regions tied to a control region.  Transactions can be balanced 
across the message regions, and on misbehaving message region will not affect 
any of the other message regions in the same control region.

IMS was designed from the start to process transaction this way whereas CICS 
was build to handle all transaction in one region. The TOR, AOR concept was 
added on to CICS afterwards.

IMS is a beast to administer and is, in my opinion, less flexible than CICS.
CICS is very easy to maintain.  IE: "CEDA DEFINE PROG(XXX_" compared to running 
gens etc. but one bad behaving transaction can bring everything to a halt in CICS.

Ian
http://www.cicsworld.com

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Mike Schwab]

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:

> 1) How does BMS compare to MFS.  Power, flexibility, ease of use.
Pretty similar.  One run to create a binary map, one run to create the copybook.

> 2) Does IMS TM have an API for "miscellaneous functions" other than just 
> sending and receiving data?  Like, does it have (or need) things that 
> transient data queues, temp storage queues, etc.
If you have a save area, the call to your program includes the area.
Yes, you can write to a que file for larger data storage.

> 3) Does IMS TM support VSAM, or just IMS DB and DB2?
I think you have to create a fake IMS DB definition that reads a
native VSAM file.

> 4) All CICS transactions run inside a single address space (assuming only 
> once CICS region, of course).  I believe this to not be the case for IMS TM, 
> but to be honest I don't really understand how IMS TM works in this regard.  
> Is there a "control" region that dispatches "transactions" to run each in 
> their own "message processing region"?
>
> 4a) Is the IMS TM (DCCTL?) control region the same region as the IMS DB 
> (DBCTL) region, assuming you have a DB/DC configuration?
>
> Frank
You can define a region to contain just databases, or just
transactions, or both.  In addition, you can have Batch message
programs that can process a file and update your live database while
online transactions continue.

One problem I have run into is multiple online updates to one or more
related records.  We solved this by putting a timestamp in the record.
 When you did an inquiry with a potential to update, you put the
timestamp in MDT hidden fields on the screen.  Then when you went to
update, if the time stamp does not match, reject the updated because
database had been updated.  Without the timestamp, you could open 2
TN3270 session on one PC, browse to the same record(s) in both
session, then change the text on both screens.  When you press enter
on the first screen, those changes were applied, then the enter on the
other screen would change the records (resulting in overlaid text and
bad keys), after the time stamp it was rejected and the screen was
refreshed with the new database records.
-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
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send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: CICS vs IMS

[Frank Swarbrick]

That's not just a suggestion.  It's a requirement.  If you compile a CICS COBOL 
program with DYNAM the compile and link (bind) may succeed, but the program 
will not execute properly under CICS.  (Not sure I've actually ever tried it, 
but I can't imagine any other result based on the documentation.)
Frank




>
> From: "McKown, John" 
>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:56 PM
>Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>My suggestion is: Don't use DYNAM for compiling CICS COBOL programs. Change 
>your coding standards from:
>
>CALL 'PGM1'.
>
>to 
>MOVE 'PGM1' TO CALLED-PROGRAM.
>CALL CALLED-PROGRAM.
>
>With CALLED-PROGRAM being PIC X(8).
>
>--
>John McKown 
>Systems Engineer IV
>IT
>
>Administrative Services Group
>
>HealthMarkets(r)
>
>9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
>(817) 255-3225 phone * 
>john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com
>
>Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
>proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
>the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
>HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
>insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
>Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
>MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
>
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Weber
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:48 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
>> 
>> I'm glad the DYNAM/NODYNAM has been brought up.  I have a 
>> question about a CICS application.  It contains sub modules 
>> using CALL.
>> 
>> PGM1 (CALL 'PGM2') --> PGM2 (CALL 'PGM3') --> PGM3
>> 
>> Each module is translated/pre-processed and then compiled with DYNAM.
>> 
>> If PGM3 is compiled/linked, then PGM1 and PGM2 must be 
>> re-linked.  Can this be avoided?
>> 
>> Thank you...
>> 
>> John 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:01 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
>> 
>> With the current CICS and COBOL, you must compile your COBOL 
>> with NODYNAM, as I'm sure you know. "static" CALLs in CICS 
>> are still "not supported". However, with LE, it is now 
>> supported to do dynamic CALLs in COBOL. The dynamically 
>> CALLed subroutine still needs to be defined to CICS. The CICS 
>> Language Environment run-time does a CICS LOAD of the 
>> program, then the usual BALR/BASR to actually invoke the 
>> subroutine. The problem that I have with it is that this is 
>> not the equivalent of EXEC CICS LINK. CICS does not "know" 
>> that you've transferred control to a different program. And 
>> so any CICS messages, such as abends, in the CALL'd program 
>> have the name of the last program that was invoked via the 
>> EXEC CICS LINK type interface, instead of the real program name.
>> 
>> --
>> John McKown
>> Systems Engineer IV
>> IT
>> 
>> Administrative Services Group
>> 
>> HealthMarkets(r)
>> 
>> 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
>> (817) 255-3225 phone *
>> john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com
>> 
>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain 
>> confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the 
>> intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail 
>> and destroy all copies of the original message. 
>> HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten 
>> and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, 
>> Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West 
>> National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA 
>> Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
>> > [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Fred Hoffman
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:35 PM
>> > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>> > Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
>> > 
>> >  
>> > They both have their +s and -s, The logging for I

Re: CICS vs IMS

[McKown, John]

My suggestion is: Don't use DYNAM for compiling CICS COBOL programs. Change 
your coding standards from:

 CALL 'PGM1'.

to 
 MOVE 'PGM1' TO CALLED-PROGRAM.
 CALL CALLED-PROGRAM.

With CALLED-PROGRAM being PIC X(8).

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * 
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Weber
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:48 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
> I'm glad the DYNAM/NODYNAM has been brought up.  I have a 
> question about a CICS application.  It contains sub modules 
> using CALL.
> 
> PGM1 (CALL 'PGM2') --> PGM2 (CALL 'PGM3') --> PGM3
> 
> Each module is translated/pre-processed and then compiled with DYNAM.
> 
> If PGM3 is compiled/linked, then PGM1 and PGM2 must be 
> re-linked.  Can this be avoided?
> 
> Thank you...
> 
> John 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:01 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
> With the current CICS and COBOL, you must compile your COBOL 
> with NODYNAM, as I'm sure you know. "static" CALLs in CICS 
> are still "not supported". However, with LE, it is now 
> supported to do dynamic CALLs in COBOL. The dynamically 
> CALLed subroutine still needs to be defined to CICS. The CICS 
> Language Environment run-time does a CICS LOAD of the 
> program, then the usual BALR/BASR to actually invoke the 
> subroutine. The problem that I have with it is that this is 
> not the equivalent of EXEC CICS LINK. CICS does not "know" 
> that you've transferred control to a different program. And 
> so any CICS messages, such as abends, in the CALL'd program 
> have the name of the last program that was invoked via the 
> EXEC CICS LINK type interface, instead of the real program name.
> 
> --
> John McKown
> Systems Engineer IV
> IT
> 
> Administrative Services Group
> 
> HealthMarkets(r)
> 
> 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
> (817) 255-3225 phone *
> john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com
> 
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain 
> confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the 
> intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail 
> and destroy all copies of the original message. 
> HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten 
> and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, 
> Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West 
> National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA 
> Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
> 
>  
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> > [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Fred Hoffman
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:35 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> > Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> > 
> >  
> > They both have their +s and -s, The logging for IMS is very good.  
> > Easy to use in recovery.  I thought that CICS was quicker 
> and also had 
> > a pretty good log system.  Some of it depends upon the 
> application you 
> > are using.  I'm a CICS bigot but, I'm also an IMS DBA.
> >  
> > It's you pick and how experienced your staff is.  BTW, 
> calls in cics 
> > are frowned upon, the last time I checked.
> >  
> > HTH,
> > Fred
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Roberts, John J
> > Sent: Wed 2/15/2012 6:30 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> > Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >>We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been
> > curious for a while about the differences between how CICS 
> works >>and 
> > how IMS TM works.  I could

Re: CICS vs IMS

[Sambataro, Anthony (NIH/NBS) [E]]

Can probably get a good answer from the IMS listserv that BMC Supports:

im...@imslistserv.bmc.com

-Original Message-
From: Frank Swarbrick [mailto:frank.swarbr...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS

I do think I need to be more specific, since the answers so far aren't quite 
what I was looking for (though interesting).  Probably because I am on the 
applications side, rather than the systems side, I have different concerns than 
most here.  Anyway, here are some specific questions...

1) How does BMS compare to MFS.  Power, flexibility, ease of use.
2) Does IMS TM have an API for "miscellaneous functions" other than just 
sending and receiving data?  Like, does it have (or need) things that transient 
data queues, temp storage queues, etc.
3) Does IMS TM support VSAM, or just IMS DB and DB2?
4) All CICS transactions run inside a single address space (assuming only once 
CICS region, of course).  I believe this to not be the case for IMS TM, but to 
be honest I don't really understand how IMS TM works in this regard.  Is there 
a "control" region that dispatches "transactions" to run each in their own 
"message processing region"?

4a) Is the IMS TM (DCCTL?) control region the same region as the IMS DB (DBCTL) 
region, assuming you have a DB/DC configuration?

Frank




>
> From: Itschak Mugzach 
>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:02 AM
>Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>Frank,
>
>From IMS/DC point of view, It works almost the same. CICS has DBCTL that
>perform as a limited DBRC as well as IMS/DC has the DLI & DBRC address
>spaces. Same commands, traces etc. Is this what your question refer to ?
>
>ITschak
>
>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:04 AM, Frank Swarbrick
>wrote:
>
>> We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while
>> about the differences between how CICS works and how IMS TM works.  I
>> couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Frank
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>
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>
>

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Ian Steyn]

Frank,

IMS DC does the same thing as CICS, but completely different.

An IMS control region with its message region function basically like CICSPlex 
with AOR's and TOR's.

Transactions in IMS can be tied to specific message regions and you can have 
several message regions tied to a control region.  Transactions can be balanced 
across the message regions, and on misbehaving message region will not affect 
any of the other message regions in the same control region.

IMS was designed from the start to process transaction this way whereas CICS 
was build to handle all transaction in one region. The TOR, AOR concept was 
added on to CICS afterwards.

IMS is a beast to administer and is, in my opinion, less flexible than CICS.
CICS is very easy to maintain.  IE: "CEDA DEFINE PROG(XXX_" compared to running 
gens etc. but one bad behaving transaction can bring everything to a halt in 
CICS.

Ian
http://www.cicsworld.com

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Frank Swarbrick]

I do think I need to be more specific, since the answers so far aren't quite 
what I was looking for (though interesting).  Probably because I am on the 
applications side, rather than the systems side, I have different concerns than 
most here.  Anyway, here are some specific questions...

1) How does BMS compare to MFS.  Power, flexibility, ease of use.
2) Does IMS TM have an API for "miscellaneous functions" other than just 
sending and receiving data?  Like, does it have (or need) things that transient 
data queues, temp storage queues, etc.
3) Does IMS TM support VSAM, or just IMS DB and DB2?
4) All CICS transactions run inside a single address space (assuming only once 
CICS region, of course).  I believe this to not be the case for IMS TM, but to 
be honest I don't really understand how IMS TM works in this regard.  Is there 
a "control" region that dispatches "transactions" to run each in their own 
"message processing region"?

4a) Is the IMS TM (DCCTL?) control region the same region as the IMS DB (DBCTL) 
region, assuming you have a DB/DC configuration?

Frank




>
> From: Itschak Mugzach 
>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:02 AM
>Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>Frank,
>
>From IMS/DC point of view, It works almost the same. CICS has DBCTL that
>perform as a limited DBRC as well as IMS/DC has the DLI & DBRC address
>spaces. Same commands, traces etc. Is this what your question refer to ?
>
>ITschak
>
>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:04 AM, Frank Swarbrick
>wrote:
>
>> We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while
>> about the differences between how CICS works and how IMS TM works.  I
>> couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Frank
>>
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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Farley, Peter x23353]

The whole point of DYNAM is that you do NOT have to recompile calling programs 
when a subroutine is recompiled UNLESS the interface changes (E.G. if the 
arguments change format or order of position or new values are required, etc.).

The reason that CICS requires NODYNAM is that the CALL's that result from "EXEC 
CICS" statements have to be statically invoked and thus linked into the load 
module.  Using "CALL variable-name" invokes dynamic calls regardless of the 
DYNAM/NODYNAM setting, even if the value of "variable name" is never changed.

HTH

Peter

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On
> Behalf Of John Weber
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:48 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
> I'm glad the DYNAM/NODYNAM has been brought up.  I have a question about a
> CICS application.  It contains sub modules using CALL.
> 
> PGM1 (CALL 'PGM2') --> PGM2 (CALL 'PGM3') --> PGM3
> 
> Each module is translated/pre-processed and then compiled with DYNAM.
> 
> If PGM3 is compiled/linked, then PGM1 and PGM2 must be re-linked.  Can
> this be avoided?
> 
> Thank you...
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Re: CICS vs IMS

[John Weber]

I'm glad the DYNAM/NODYNAM has been brought up.  I have a question about a CICS 
application.  It contains sub modules using CALL.

PGM1 (CALL 'PGM2') --> PGM2 (CALL 'PGM3') --> PGM3

Each module is translated/pre-processed and then compiled with DYNAM.

If PGM3 is compiled/linked, then PGM1 and PGM2 must be re-linked.  Can this be 
avoided?

Thank you...

John 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
McKown, John
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS

With the current CICS and COBOL, you must compile your COBOL with NODYNAM, as 
I'm sure you know. "static" CALLs in CICS are still "not supported". However, 
with LE, it is now supported to do dynamic CALLs in COBOL. The dynamically 
CALLed subroutine still needs to be defined to CICS. The CICS Language 
Environment run-time does a CICS LOAD of the program, then the usual BALR/BASR 
to actually invoke the subroutine. The problem that I have with it is that this 
is not the equivalent of EXEC CICS LINK. CICS does not "know" that you've 
transferred control to a different program. And so any CICS messages, such as 
abends, in the CALL'd program have the name of the last program that was 
invoked via the EXEC CICS LINK type interface, instead of the real program name.

--
John McKown
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone *
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> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Fred Hoffman
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>  
> They both have their +s and -s, The logging for IMS is very good.  
> Easy to use in recovery.  I thought that CICS was quicker and also had 
> a pretty good log system.  Some of it depends upon the application you 
> are using.  I'm a CICS bigot but, I'm also an IMS DBA.
>  
> It's you pick and how experienced your staff is.  BTW, calls in cics 
> are frowned upon, the last time I checked.
>  
> HTH,
> Fred
> 
> ________
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Roberts, John J
> Sent: Wed 2/15/2012 6:30 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
> 
> 
> >>We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been
> curious for a while about the differences between how CICS works >>and 
> how IMS TM works.  I couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a 
> link to a good reference?
> 
> Try Google for "IMS DC".  The IMS Transaction Manager used to be 
> called IMS/DC (for Data Communication).
> 
> It has been a long time since I touched it, but my recollection is 
> that it was a cleaner implementation within the Operating System.  It 
> used CALL level API's (no EXEC IMS
> precompiler) and exploited all the OS capabilities for multitasking 
> and multiprocessing.  CICS on the other hand tried to isolate apps 
> from the OS, becoming its own mini-OS within a single OS address 
> space.  This was an advantage for CICS back in the 70's.  But I 
> suspect the table has turned under z/OS.
> 
> --
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Itschak Mugzach]

Frank,

>From IMS/DC point of view, It works almost the same. CICS has DBCTL that
perform as a limited DBRC as well as IMS/DC has the DLI & DBRC address
spaces. Same commands, traces etc. Is this what your question refer to ?

ITschak

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:04 AM, Frank Swarbrick
wrote:

> We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while
> about the differences between how CICS works and how IMS TM works.  I
> couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
>
> --
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Re: CICS vs IMS

[McKown, John]

With the current CICS and COBOL, you must compile your COBOL with NODYNAM, as 
I'm sure you know. "static" CALLs in CICS are still "not supported". However, 
with LE, it is now supported to do dynamic CALLs in COBOL. The dynamically 
CALLed subroutine still needs to be defined to CICS. The CICS Language 
Environment run-time does a CICS LOAD of the program, then the usual BALR/BASR 
to actually invoke the subroutine. The problem that I have with it is that this 
is not the equivalent of EXEC CICS LINK. CICS does not "know" that you've 
transferred control to a different program. And so any CICS messages, such as 
abends, in the CALL'd program have the name of the last program that was 
invoked via the EXEC CICS LINK type interface, instead of the real program name.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * 
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Fred Hoffman
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
>  
> They both have their +s and -s, The logging for IMS is very 
> good.  Easy to use in recovery.  I thought that CICS was 
> quicker and also had a pretty good log system.  Some of it 
> depends upon the application you are using.  I'm a CICS bigot 
> but, I'm also an IMS DBA.  
>  
> It's you pick and how experienced your staff is.  BTW, calls 
> in cics are frowned upon, the last time I checked.
>  
> HTH,
> Fred
> 
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Roberts, John J
> Sent: Wed 2/15/2012 6:30 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS
> 
> 
> 
> >>We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been 
> curious for a while about the differences between how CICS 
> works >>and how IMS TM works.  I couldn't find anything on 
> the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?
> 
> Try Google for "IMS DC".  The IMS Transaction Manager used to 
> be called IMS/DC (for Data Communication).
> 
> It has been a long time since I touched it, but my 
> recollection is that it was a cleaner implementation within 
> the Operating System.  It used CALL level API's (no EXEC IMS 
> precompiler) and exploited all the OS capabilities for 
> multitasking and multiprocessing.  CICS on the other hand 
> tried to isolate apps from the OS, becoming its own mini-OS 
> within a single OS address space.  This was an advantage for 
> CICS back in the 70's.  But I suspect the table has turned under z/OS.
> 
> --
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> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Ken Brick]

On 16/02/2012 11:04 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote:

We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while about 
the differences between how CICS works and how IMS TM works.  I couldn't find 
anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?

Thanks,
Frank

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Frank,

Disclaimers.
1. I've never been involved with IMS/DC in application design or 
programming but have worked with DC as a sysprog.

2. It;s over 10 years since I was involved.

The 3 IMS/DC sites I worked at did 7*24 dispatching, among other things, 
with a lot of docket printing which seemed to work well within IMS/DC.


The other points, probably to be poorly  explained, is that DC has 
different types of regions eg. message regions and other regions for 
different types of processing. This allowed for micro management of DC 
without the overhead that equivalent micro management of CICS would 
cause. This I think also assisted in recovery when things went turtle up.


Ken

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Fred Hoffman]

 
They both have their +s and -s, The logging for IMS is very good.  Easy to use 
in recovery.  I thought that CICS was quicker and also had a pretty good log 
system.  Some of it depends upon the application you are using.  I'm a CICS 
bigot but, I'm also an IMS DBA.  
 
It's you pick and how experienced your staff is.  BTW, calls in cics are 
frowned upon, the last time I checked.
 
HTH,
Fred



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Roberts, John J
Sent: Wed 2/15/2012 6:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: CICS vs IMS



>>We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while 
>>about the differences between how CICS works >>and how IMS TM works.  I 
>>couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?

Try Google for "IMS DC".  The IMS Transaction Manager used to be called IMS/DC 
(for Data Communication).

It has been a long time since I touched it, but my recollection is that it was 
a cleaner implementation within the Operating System.  It used CALL level API's 
(no EXEC IMS precompiler) and exploited all the OS capabilities for 
multitasking and multiprocessing.  CICS on the other hand tried to isolate apps 
from the OS, becoming its own mini-OS within a single OS address space.  This 
was an advantage for CICS back in the 70's.  But I suspect the table has turned 
under z/OS.

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Roberts, John J]

>>We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while 
>>about the differences between how CICS works >>and how IMS TM works.  I 
>>couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?

Try Google for "IMS DC".  The IMS Transaction Manager used to be called IMS/DC 
(for Data Communication).

It has been a long time since I touched it, but my recollection is that it was 
a cleaner implementation within the Operating System.  It used CALL level API's 
(no EXEC IMS precompiler) and exploited all the OS capabilities for 
multitasking and multiprocessing.  CICS on the other hand tried to isolate apps 
from the OS, becoming its own mini-OS within a single OS address space.  This 
was an advantage for CICS back in the 70's.  But I suspect the table has turned 
under z/OS.

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Re: CICS vs IMS

[Mike Schwab]

I have programmed with both systems.  IMS TM seems to be a bit cleaner
to me.  CICS seems to be more susecptible to other program's errors.

Both feature 3270 screen handling, storing information between screen
actions, updating databases, sending updated screens.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:
> We are a CICS shop with IMS DB (DBCTL), but I've been curious for a while 
> about the differences between how CICS works and how IMS TM works.  I 
> couldn't find anything on the web.  Anyone have a link to a good reference?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
>

-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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