Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
In a message dated 11/17/2006 2:36:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the entire world refers to us as Americans -- and has for a couple hundred years -- I don't see why it is somehow our failing. We are not at fault for having this name, but we commit cultural arrogance when we think we are the only Americans. “The name of our country is América.” [Simón Bolívar] Bill Fairchild To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a desert [the sack of Carthage], they call it peace. [Agricola; quoting British chieftain Calgalus' comment on the Roman Empire] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
In a message dated 11/17/2006 2:37:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And the African Americans I know call themselves BLACK, COLORED or PERSONS OF COLOR. I have known at least three African Americans who were white. They were whites born in Africa who moved to the USA. And person of color has always insulted my intelligence, as, according to optics, black is without any color and white is all colors. The Orwellian wresting of word meanings never ends. Bill Fairchild (an English-American, mostly) To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a desert [the sack of Carthage], they call it peace. [Agricola; quoting British chieftain Calgalus' comment on the Roman Empire] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Dave Kopischke [ snip ] This thread reminds me of a discussion I had with my wife during an automotive purchase outing. She was looking at the Lexus. I like them too. ... Lexus ... multiples ... Lexipodes ??? Or Lexii ??? I was dealing with a z/Os upgrade at the time and couldn't deal with the stress, so I got a Pontiac. Which as we all know is American Indian for an American Indian. I'm sure you meant to write Native American instead of American Indian, right? :-) -jc- -- Political Correctness: A quasi-religious doctrine which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On 16 Nov 2006 21:07:29 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shane) wrote: As others have said, history and common usage have won this one. Who knows, given the accuracy of the maps of the time, maybe they calculated The Antipodes Islands to be truly antipodal to Britain. Didn't miss by much really. I saw a map showing what parts of the U.S. have land at their antipodes. There are only a few isolated square miles that do. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On 16 Nov 2006 14:29:13 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote: Don't blame the dictionary. Blame the degradation of common discourse. However, language has been degrading forever. Every word in every language has degraded from something before. Syntax has degraded. And every generation is worse than the generation before as we have been in our long process upward. The values I have currently decided were what I should have had in my youth are the *right* ones, that God intended for us to have for all time. That includes my values towards programming languages, mainframes, coding standards, and testing standards. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
--snip-- I'm sure you meant to write Native American instead of American Indian, right? :-) ---unsnip--- The Native Americans that I know, mostly Ottawa and Oglala Sioux, are offended by Native American. They will tell you to your face that they are INDIANS. And the African Americans I know call themselves BLACK, COLORED or PERSONS OF COLOR. And by the way, they're all AMERICANS. Caps for clarity, not shouting. :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:48:13 -0700, Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, language has been degrading forever. I would contend that language has been *evolving* forever. New features appear from time to time. Those that are useful are retained. Old features that lose their usefulness fall from use and are eventually fortgotten. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman --snip-- I'm sure you meant to write Native American instead of American Indian, right? :-) ---unsnip--- The Native Americans that I know, mostly Ottawa and Oglala Sioux, are offended by Native American. They will tell you to your face that they are INDIANS. To be anthropologically correct we should refer to them as Aboriginies or Aboriginals, and if qualification is needed add [North] American (to distinguish from, e.g., Australian). And the African Americans I know call themselves BLACK, COLORED or PERSONS OF COLOR. And by the way, they're all AMERICANS. Indeed, as are all of us who claim U. S. citizenship. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes) snip And the African Americans I know call themselves BLACK, COLORED or PERSONS OF COLOR. And by the way, they're all AMERICANS. Indeed, as are all of us who claim U. S. citizenship. -jc- alert type=pedant And I have been old that the non-U.S. residents / citizens get a bit upset that we claim the entire continent for ourselves. After all, Canadians are AMERICANS, as are Mexicans, Peruvians, Brazilians, and all the rest (no offense meant to people whose country I did not mention). /alert -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
I'm sure you meant to write Native American instead of American Indian, right? Native American may be PC, but a few years ago on vacation in Arizona, we took a tour with a company owned and run by Indians, and our guide clearly told us that they prefer to be called Indians. Of course, we had an interesting guide. He looked totally indian, mahogany skin, prominent nose, braded hair, etc, but he grew up in California and talked like a Valley Boy, fer sure! -- Bruce A. Black Senior Software Developer for FDR Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300 personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] sales info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tech support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.innovationdp.fdr.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
They are welcome to be as upset as they like, but considering that the entire world refers to us as Americans -- and has for a couple hundred years -- I don't see why it is somehow our failing. It is a legitimate shortening of the name United States of America, just as Mexico is a a legitimate shortening of the *actual* name of the country, which is Estados Unidos Mexicanos. Similarly, Brazil is really Republica Federativa de Brasil and Venzuela is Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela. Jon alert type=pedant And I have been old that the non-U.S. residents / citizens get a bit upset that we claim the entire continent for ourselves. After all, Canadians are AMERICANS, as are Mexicans, Peruvians, Brazilians, and all the rest (no offense meant to people whose country I did not mention). /alert -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Pedantry (was RE: Shane's antipodes)
On 17 Nov 2006 10:22:25 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: alert type=pedant And I have been old that the non-U.S. residents / citizens get a bit upset that we claim the entire continent for ourselves. After all, Canadians are AMERICANS, as are Mexicans, Peruvians, Brazilians, and all the rest (no offense meant to people whose country I did not mention). /alert When I lived in Mexico in the early 1960s people complained that US people call ourselves Americans - we should be called North Americans - which I though was odd. The United States of Mexico is just as much a part of North America as the U.S. is - not to mention Canada. The trouble is, the U.S., and to a lesser extent, the U.K. are countries without traditional names. Although Macedonia has some similar conflict.I wonder if people from, say Israel or Saudi Arabia object to someone being described as Asian looking... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:59:16 +, john gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Australians (and Tasmanians) cannot reasonably be deprived of exclusive rights to the platypus/platypodes pair; but I am not prepared to surrender the [antipus]/antipodes pair to them too. Like octopus/octopodes, it should be shared with the rest of us. Antipus, however appropriately, is a genus of pterosaur. I understand your concern, but it bothers me far less than the trendy abuse of left and right for west and east. Imagine the confusion of a riverboat captain steaming up the Mississippi: left/right bank; port/starboard beam; left/right whatever. ` More seriously, we do need a set of FAQ archive references, not least in order to make circumstantially adequate answers to such questions as How can SYS1.LINKLIB be expanded? and What are the job and jobstep maxima for DD statements? available. and system symbols in batch JCL and daylight saving time/ETR/CVTLSO/ ... and IEFUSI Wiki, anyone? -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
Some clarifications, in no particular order: The term 'antipus' may well now denote a pterosaur; it is, however, the Greek and English singular of 'antipodes', as 'platypus' is the [Greek and English] singular of 'platypodes'. The Merriam-Webster dictionaries have, I suppose, legitimate uses in schoolrooms, but their editorial bent is resolutely populist and anti-intellectual. They, for example, list 'octopi', which is bog Latin, instead of 'octopodes' as a legitimate plural of 'octopus'. Why? Because some subliterate Americans use/say it. (For those who fancy such constructions there is of course no objection to using resolutely English plurals, here 'octopuses'; but to get a Latin plural wrong is inexcusable.) 'Antipodes' was used as a kind of kenning for 'Australia and New Zealand' in the UK (not the US)long before Noah Webster published his first dictionary, as the quotations in the OED entry for it make clear. Bruno Sugliani has reminded me privately that, as a matter of geometry and geology, most antipodes, fully 96% of them, are moot, in the sense that they have one or both of their termini (terminuses?) in an ocean. Cherbourg, France, and an archipelago just south of New Zealand are, however, legitimate, non-moot antipodes. To summarize, as is too often the case, Merriam-Webster got it wrong for the usual ideological reasons. The cult of usage can be used to sanction almost any usage, however barbaric. John Gilmore Ashland, MA 01721-1817 USA _ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo005002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo005001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
At the risk of being off-topic: The Merriam-Webster dictionaries have, I suppose, legitimate uses in schoolrooms, but their editorial bent is resolutely populist and anti-intellectual. They, for example, list 'octopi', which is bog Latin, instead of 'octopodes' as a legitimate plural of 'octopus'. Why? Because some subliterate Americans use/say it. (For those who fancy such constructions there is of course no objection to using resolutely English plurals, here 'octopuses'; but to get a Latin plural wrong is inexcusable.) You just don't get it! Books of style and proper usage enforce language. Dictionaries do NOT. Rather, they report on common usage. There is nothing wrong with their inexcusable behavior. They are doing their job (reporting). A dictionary should NEVER be used as an authority for enforcing standards. When I was a kid, I heard: Ain't ain't in the dictionary! It is now, because it's common usage. Don't blame the dictionary. Blame the degradation of common discourse. When in doubt. PANIC!! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:49:21 +1000, Shane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Walt, pulling John into line, wrote: I know that, among other things, 'antipodes' is Britspeak for 'Australia and New Zealand', and thus legitimately plural; but I prefer the definition that makes antipodes come only in opposed pairs (of points on the surface of the earth connected by a straight line through its center). From the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition the usage of antipodes to mean Australia and New Zealand has an implied reference to the western hemisphere. Thus there is a pair, but one of them implicit rather than explicit. Thanks Walt. Alas, another opportunity to joust with John evaporates ... :o) Shane ... This thread reminds me of a discussion I had with my wife during an automotive purchase outing. She was looking at the Lexus. I like them too. So if we were both to acquire one, how would you describe it ??? As we all know, Lexus is latin for really nice American-made Japanese car, so would multiples be referred to as Lexipodes ??? Or Lexii ??? I was dealing with a z/Os upgrade at the time and couldn't deal with the stress, so I got a Pontiac. Which as we all know is American Indian for an American Indian. It's time for this subliterate American's next dose of medication. The joust is on whether Shane wants to play or not ! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 17:47 +, john gilmore wrote: The term 'antipus' may well now denote a pterosaur; it is, however, the Greek and English singular of 'antipodes' John, John, John ... Surely you (of all people) are not trying to suggest Australia (or any where else that constitutes a where) is a singularity ???. For everything other than that entity known in mathematics as a point, surely antipodes applies. As for the Poms usurping the generic term the Antipodes to refer to the other end of the world where they attempted to dump their unwanted convicts, well ... As others have said, history and common usage have won this one. Who knows, given the accuracy of the maps of the time, maybe they calculated The Antipodes Islands to be truly antipodal to Britain. Didn't miss by much really. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Shane's antipodes
Shane writes: Whoa, better stop - ain't Friday yet, even here in the Antipodes. I know that, among other things, 'antipodes' is Britspeak for 'Australia and New Zealand', and thus legitimately plural; but I prefer the definition that makes antipodes come only in opposed pairs (of points on the surface of the earth connected by a straight line through its center). Australians (and Tasmanians) cannot reasonably be deprived of exclusive rights to the platypus/platypodes pair; but I am not prepared to surrender the [antipus]/antipodes pair to them too. Like octopus/octopodes, it should be shared with the rest of us. More seriously, we do need a set of FAQ archive references, not least in order to make circumstantially adequate answers to such questions as How can SYS1.LINKLIB be expanded? and What are the job and jobstep maxima for DD statements? available. John Gilmore Ashland, MA 01721-1817 USA _ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
On 11/15/2006 9:59 AM, john gilmore wrote: Shane writes: Whoa, better stop - ain't Friday yet, even here in the Antipodes. I know that, among other things, 'antipodes' is Britspeak for 'Australia and New Zealand', and thus legitimately plural; but I prefer the definition that makes antipodes come only in opposed pairs (of points on the surface of the earth connected by a straight line through its center). From the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition the usage of antipodes to mean Australia and New Zealand has an implied reference to the western hemisphere. Thus there is a pair, but one of them implicit rather than explicit. See http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-searchva=antipodes Walt -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Shane's antipodes
Walt, pulling John into line, wrote: I know that, among other things, 'antipodes' is Britspeak for 'Australia and New Zealand', and thus legitimately plural; but I prefer the definition that makes antipodes come only in opposed pairs (of points on the surface of the earth connected by a straight line through its center). From the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition the usage of antipodes to mean Australia and New Zealand has an implied reference to the western hemisphere. Thus there is a pair, but one of them implicit rather than explicit. Thanks Walt. Alas, another opportunity to joust with John evaporates ... :o) Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
