Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 07:19:11PM -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Yeah, I realize I didn't define anything.  But in this case I'm really just
> saying that we have no idea whether an AI can have an impulse to preserve
> itself.  We observe that impulse in every form of life, but it's well to
> keep in mind that an AI isn't of that sort.  It may have that impulse, but
> so far that's just an assumption, no?

I suppose humans are good enough for the job of wiping humans. Any AI
worth its salt will just sit and wait, being polite and helpfull.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: ssid not recognized after erly code update

[Bill Giannelli]

thank you for all the help!
What occurred was that I reallocated the SDSNLINK (for the Db2 ERLY code) on a 
different volume.
APF seemed ok to me as it was specified as SMS.
However, the linklist in parmlib specified the specific volume, which needed to 
be updated.
So now it is working.
thanks
Bill
On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 06:26:04 +1000, Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

>Bill,
>
>Read this:
>
>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/db2-for-zos/12?topic=delivery-updating-db2-initialization-parameters-function-level-activation
>
>
>
>On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 8:45 PM Bill Giannelli 
>wrote:
>
>> I updated DB2 ERLY code dataset SDSNLINK, now the SSID is not recognized.
>> Have IPLd and refreshed LLA then tried stopping and starting LLA.
>> What is wrong?
>> thanks
>> Bill
>>
>> --
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>
>
>-- 
>Wayne V. Bickerdike
>
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Re: Just PDSE

[Andrew Rowley]

On 8/04/2023 2:23 pm, Brian Westerman wrote:

Just so you know, it's not SYSPLEX that you need, it's GRS and you have have 
that with just a couple FICON ports.


Are you sure about that? Regular PDS needs GRS to safely share between 
multiple systems, if that was all that was required no-one would have 
additional issues with PDSE.


Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean you are not vulnerable to 
data corruption with the right set of circumstances.


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Seymour J Metz]

Wouildn't that depend on the programming and training?

Some people lack an impulse to preserve themselves. Consider reckless behavior 
and suicide attempts.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 7:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI wipes out humanity?

Yeah, I realize I didn't define anything.  But in this case I'm really just
saying that we have no idea whether an AI can have an impulse to preserve
itself.  We observe that impulse in every form of life, but it's well to
keep in mind that an AI isn't of that sort.  It may have that impulse, but
so far that's just an assumption, no?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* For Sale: Toddler bed, white metal frame, practically new but had
monsters under it, $20  -from Reader's Digest, Feb 1999 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 16:36

There are a lot of questions that are best answered by asking "What do you
mean by life?"; in this case, what do you mean by life? Is a virus alive? A
prion? An organization not based on proteins and RNA? An organism not based
on CHON, P, S and a few stray metals?


From: [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 3:57 PM

An interesting article in some ways.  I don't take seriously all of its
speculations, partly because as a Christian I see world events progressing
rather differently.  But one assumption I want to question here starts with
the observation that all life seeks to survive, and speculates that AIs are
likely to 1) find themselves in competition with humans and therefore 2)
conclude that we have to be wiped out.

My challenge is this:  All life seeks to survive, yes, but AIs are not life.
Maybe they'll discover an urge to survive, but maybe that's not in their
makeup and cannot be.  Does anyone know?

Just a thought.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bill Johnson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 15:01

Thoughts.

The Aliens Have Landed, and We Created Them
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-09/artificial-intelligenc
e-the-aliens-have-landed-and-we-created-them

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Re: COBOL question

[Cameron Conacher]

Good call 😊

I ALLOCATE once.
And just before GOBACK, I issue the FREE. Just one time.
I am thinking it might be related to EXPEDITER.

That is my current WAG.


Thanks

…….Cameron

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 8:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: COBOL question

I can't see your code of course but my WAG is a programmer logic error. 
(Sorry!) I am going to guess your logic is such that you try to free the same 
area twice or, less likely, corrupt your pointer.

You say you check to see if it is null before freeing. Do you set it to NULL 
after freeing?

Charles

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 23:01:05 +, Cameron Conacher  
wrote:

>Thanks Bob,
>No I initialize the Pointer to NULL, and then allocate. Successfully.
>And then later I check to see it the pointer = NULL. If it is not NULL, then I 
>do the FREE.

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Re: Call by value, final

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

YUP! PDS has long been able to support "invalid" member names. The STOW macro 
uses what it is passed.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2023 11:03 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Call by value, final

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
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which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

On Sat, 8 Apr 2023, at 15:54, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 04:27:04 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>>
>>...  The assembler seems OK with it, but the linker is converted to upper 
>> case, even though I've specified CASE(MIXED).
>>
> I'm surprised.  In an experiment long ago I was able to create a
> member in an (old-fashioned) PDS simply with CASE(MIXED); NAME lower.

I'm sure I recall that some of the SMP/E work PDSes had member names that not 
only were mixed case but also included characters that you'd not see in PDSs 
processed via standard ispf utilities.  I can't quite remember if they used 
every single byte value in each of the 8 character positions, but I think they 
might have done, thus allowing 256 ** 8 different member names.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Why does the author omit the classic "I, Robot" by Issac Asimov.
Where the "AI" decides to protect humanity from itself.

That being said, I believe we are far from sentient AI at this point in time.

My USD $0.02 worth.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 2:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: AI wipes out humanity?

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Thoughts.

The Aliens Have Landed, and We Created Them
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-09/artificial-intelligence-the-aliens-have-landed-and-we-created-them




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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Seymour J Metz]

Or the chilling "The Humanoids" by Jack Williamson "To serve Man, and keep him 
from harm".


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Allan Staller <0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:23 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI wipes out humanity?

Classification: Confidential

Why does the author omit the classic "I, Robot" by Issac Asimov.
Where the "AI" decides to protect humanity from itself.

That being said, I believe we are far from sentient AI at this point in time.

My USD $0.02 worth.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 2:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: AI wipes out humanity?

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Thoughts.

The Aliens Have Landed, and We Created Them
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-09/artificial-intelligence-the-aliens-have-landed-and-we-created-them




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

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Re: Specifhing the ENVBLOCK (was: Just PDSE)

[Seymour J Metz]

"However, separate chains within a single address space are independent." 
doesn't sound like a single chain.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 5:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Specifhing the ENVBLOCK (was: Just PDSE)

On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 20:41:33 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Curse you, OCO!
>
>I suspect that validating a potential ENVB address requires running a tree 
>rather than just a list.
>

shows only linear chains.  So there can't be other kids of trees.

--
gil

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Re: COBOL question

[Joe Monk]

A lot of times, U4038 is not enough region...

Joe

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 6:15 AM Cameron Conacher <
03cfc59146bb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Good call 😊
>
> I ALLOCATE once.
> And just before GOBACK, I issue the FREE. Just one time.
> I am thinking it might be related to EXPEDITER.
>
> That is my current WAG.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> …….Cameron
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Charles Mills
> Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 8:07 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [External] Re: COBOL question
>
> I can't see your code of course but my WAG is a programmer logic error.
> (Sorry!) I am going to guess your logic is such that you try to free the
> same area twice or, less likely, corrupt your pointer.
>
> You say you check to see if it is null before freeing. Do you set it to
> NULL after freeing?
>
> Charles
>
> On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 23:01:05 +, Cameron Conacher <
> cameron.conac...@aexp.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks Bob,
> >No I initialize the Pointer to NULL, and then allocate. Successfully.
> >And then later I check to see it the pointer = NULL. If it is not NULL,
> then I do the FREE.
>
> --
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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bob Bridges]

Or, of course, "Colossus: The Forbin Project", in which the computer
concludes that it must become the world's dictator in order to preserve
mankind from its own idiocies.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.  -ok, I
found it in a fortune cookie, but it's not bad */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 08:52

Or the chilling "The Humanoids" by Jack Williamson "To serve Man, and keep
him from harm".


From: Allan Staller <0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:23 AM

Why does the author omit the classic "I, Robot" by Issac Asimov.
Where the "AI" decides to protect humanity from itself.

That being said, I believe we are far from sentient AI at this point in
time.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bill Johnson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 2:01 PM

The Aliens Have Landed, and We Created Them
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-09/artificial-intelligenc
e-the-aliens-have-landed-and-we-created-them

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bob Bridges]

Getting into philosophy, but why not?

Shmuel> Wouldn't that depend on the programming and training?

Me> Sure.  Has anyone programmed self-preservation into any of the current
AIs?  I suspect no one's thought of such a thing yet.  (And maybe anyone who
has thought of it has thought better of it.)

The assumption that AIs want to preserve themselves is probably inseparable
from the assumption that AIs are self-aware*, and I suppose it's that
assumption that I'm questioning.  I seriously doubt we ~can~ create
self-awareness, but that's debatable because we don't really know how to
define what self-awareness is.  Assuming for the sake of argument that we
can, how would we determine whether an AI has it?  We call that the Turing
test, but as far as I know we don't have one.

(Stop me if I've told this one already:  Decades ago I attended a software
conference in Anaheim.  My best friend from high school lives in that area,
and when he heard that the guest speaker at the wrap-up banquet was to be
Gene Rodenberry, he shelled out $50 to attend the banquet himself.  Gene
Rodenberry didn't show, pleading exhaustion, but the man who came in his
place was an entertaining speaker and I remember thoroughly enjoying his
talk.

(In that decade it was fashionable to talk knowledgeably about the Turing
test.  Partway through his presentation he mentioned it, and added "...and
by the way no one should be allowed to talk about the Turing test if they
can't pass it themselves".  Terry and I burst into loud laughter - and
quickly stifled ourselves as we realized the rest of the room was silent.
The speaker paused, and then said "Well, I guess now we know who knows what
the Turing test is."  Of course we had to laugh again, but more respectably
this time.)

* I do not mean that the two ~propositions~ are inseparable.  I'm just
thinking that anyone who ~assumes~ that AIs feel the need to preserve
themselves are assuming that they're self-aware.

Schmuel> Some people lack an impulse to preserve themselves. Consider
reckless behavior and suicide attempts.

Me> I consider it, but neither one contradicts the assertion.  Even those
folks have a strong impulse to live.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A man who has lived in many places is not likely to be deceived by the
local errors of his native village; the scholar has lived in many times and
is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that
pours from the press and the microphone of his own age.  -C S Lewis, "The
Weight of Glory" */


From: Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 7:19 PM

Yeah, I realize I didn't define anything.  But in this case I'm really just
saying that we have no idea whether an AI can have an impulse to preserve
itself.  We observe that impulse in every form of life, but it's well to
keep in mind that an AI isn't of that sort.  It may have that impulse, but
so far that's just an assumption, no?

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[rpinion865]

And, no one mentions the HAL 9000???




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, April 10th, 2023 at 10:12 AM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:


> Getting into philosophy, but why not?
> 
> Shmuel> Wouldn't that depend on the programming and training?
> 
> 
> Me> Sure. Has anyone programmed self-preservation into any of the current
> 
> AIs? I suspect no one's thought of such a thing yet. (And maybe anyone who
> has thought of it has thought better of it.)
> 
> The assumption that AIs want to preserve themselves is probably inseparable
> from the assumption that AIs are self-aware*, and I suppose it's that
> assumption that I'm questioning. I seriously doubt we ~can~ create
> self-awareness, but that's debatable because we don't really know how to
> define what self-awareness is. Assuming for the sake of argument that we
> can, how would we determine whether an AI has it? We call that the Turing
> test, but as far as I know we don't have one.
> 
> (Stop me if I've told this one already: Decades ago I attended a software
> conference in Anaheim. My best friend from high school lives in that area,
> and when he heard that the guest speaker at the wrap-up banquet was to be
> Gene Rodenberry, he shelled out $50 to attend the banquet himself. Gene
> Rodenberry didn't show, pleading exhaustion, but the man who came in his
> place was an entertaining speaker and I remember thoroughly enjoying his
> talk.
> 
> (In that decade it was fashionable to talk knowledgeably about the Turing
> test. Partway through his presentation he mentioned it, and added "...and
> by the way no one should be allowed to talk about the Turing test if they
> can't pass it themselves". Terry and I burst into loud laughter - and
> quickly stifled ourselves as we realized the rest of the room was silent.
> The speaker paused, and then said "Well, I guess now we know who knows what
> the Turing test is." Of course we had to laugh again, but more respectably
> this time.)
> 
> * I do not mean that the two ~propositions~ are inseparable. I'm just
> thinking that anyone who ~assumes~ that AIs feel the need to preserve
> themselves are assuming that they're self-aware.
> 
> Schmuel> Some people lack an impulse to preserve themselves. Consider
> 
> reckless behavior and suicide attempts.
> 
> Me> I consider it, but neither one contradicts the assertion. Even those
> 
> folks have a strong impulse to live.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* A man who has lived in many places is not likely to be deceived by the
> local errors of his native village; the scholar has lived in many times and
> is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that
> pours from the press and the microphone of his own age. -C S Lewis, "The
> Weight of Glory" */
> 
> 
> From: Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 7:19 PM
> 
> Yeah, I realize I didn't define anything. But in this case I'm really just
> saying that we have no idea whether an AI can have an impulse to preserve
> itself. We observe that impulse in every form of life, but it's well to
> keep in mind that an AI isn't of that sort. It may have that impulse, but
> so far that's just an assumption, no?
> 
> --
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Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

[Schmitt, Michael]

A call to '@SEPTEST' compiles for me with both DYNAM and NODYNAM on COBOL for 
z/OS 6.20. Per the PGMNAME compile option, this is allowed in all settings of 
that option.

What do you have for FLAGSTD?

Can you post the exact compile error?

Note that such a program id would need to be enclosed in quotes for that to 
compile.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2023 1:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I am indeed using DYNAM.

I have no great need for this to work.  Just something I noticed and was 
curious about.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 11:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Not true for non-static calls.  We are past COBOL 5 (V6.2 at the moment) and 
"CALL variable USING . . . " where "variable" has any of the "national" 
characters ($#@) works every time.  We have multiple dynamically called utility 
subroutines with those characters in the program name.

Why in the world are you using literal calls?  Or are you using the DYNAM 
option to convert literal calls to dynamic ones?  If so, bite the bullet - 
convert them to "CALL variable" and you are done.

The only legitimate case I have seen for using literal CALL's is when you are 
using nested subroutine programs in the same source file as the calling program.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I've tried calling modules (that exist!) with both '@' and '#' signs in them 
and Enterprise COBOL 5+ does not allow this.  COBOL 4 allowed this.  Is there 
any good reason why this is the case?
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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bill Johnson]

My beliefs are we are currently in a 6th mass extinction. The earth has already 
experienced 5. The difference is this one is caused by human activity. AI might 
be able to prevent it or perhaps just lengthen and delay its impact. Or wipe us 
out before it plays out.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/what-is-the-sixth-mass-extinction-and-what-can-we-do-about-it




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 10:22 AM, rpinion865 
<042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

And, no one mentions the HAL 9000???




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, April 10th, 2023 at 10:12 AM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:


> Getting into philosophy, but why not?
> 
> Shmuel> Wouldn't that depend on the programming and training?
> 
> 
> Me> Sure. Has anyone programmed self-preservation into any of the current
> 
> AIs? I suspect no one's thought of such a thing yet. (And maybe anyone who
> has thought of it has thought better of it.)
> 
> The assumption that AIs want to preserve themselves is probably inseparable
> from the assumption that AIs are self-aware*, and I suppose it's that
> assumption that I'm questioning. I seriously doubt we ~can~ create
> self-awareness, but that's debatable because we don't really know how to
> define what self-awareness is. Assuming for the sake of argument that we
> can, how would we determine whether an AI has it? We call that the Turing
> test, but as far as I know we don't have one.
> 
> (Stop me if I've told this one already: Decades ago I attended a software
> conference in Anaheim. My best friend from high school lives in that area,
> and when he heard that the guest speaker at the wrap-up banquet was to be
> Gene Rodenberry, he shelled out $50 to attend the banquet himself. Gene
> Rodenberry didn't show, pleading exhaustion, but the man who came in his
> place was an entertaining speaker and I remember thoroughly enjoying his
> talk.
> 
> (In that decade it was fashionable to talk knowledgeably about the Turing
> test. Partway through his presentation he mentioned it, and added "...and
> by the way no one should be allowed to talk about the Turing test if they
> can't pass it themselves". Terry and I burst into loud laughter - and
> quickly stifled ourselves as we realized the rest of the room was silent.
> The speaker paused, and then said "Well, I guess now we know who knows what
> the Turing test is." Of course we had to laugh again, but more respectably
> this time.)
> 
> * I do not mean that the two ~propositions~ are inseparable. I'm just
> thinking that anyone who ~assumes~ that AIs feel the need to preserve
> themselves are assuming that they're self-aware.
> 
> Schmuel> Some people lack an impulse to preserve themselves. Consider
> 
> reckless behavior and suicide attempts.
> 
> Me> I consider it, but neither one contradicts the assertion. Even those
> 
> folks have a strong impulse to live.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* A man who has lived in many places is not likely to be deceived by the
> local errors of his native village; the scholar has lived in many times and
> is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that
> pours from the press and the microphone of his own age. -C S Lewis, "The
> Weight of Glory" */
> 
> 
> From: Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 7:19 PM
> 
> Yeah, I realize I didn't define anything. But in this case I'm really just
> saying that we have no idea whether an AI can have an impulse to preserve
> itself. We observe that impulse in every form of life, but it's well to
> keep in mind that an AI isn't of that sort. It may have that impulse, but
> so far that's just an assumption, no?
> 
> --
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Pommier, Rex]

Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity.  Last month 
an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide after 
convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could save mankind 
from climate change.  Obviously the guy had other issues but somebody 
programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.  

We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo

My first and last post on this discussion.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 2:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

An interesting article in some ways.  I don't take seriously all of its 
speculations, partly because as a Christian I see world events progressing 
rather differently.  But one assumption I want to question here starts with the 
observation that all life seeks to survive, and speculates that AIs are likely 
to 1) find themselves in competition with humans and therefore 2) conclude that 
we have to be wiped out.

My challenge is this:  All life seeks to survive, yes, but AIs are not life.  
Maybe they'll discover an urge to survive, but maybe that's not in their makeup 
and cannot be.  Does anyone know?

Just a thought.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Many young people today] resent the ethical demands of society as 
infringements of their personal freedom.  They believe that their rights as 
individuals include the right to "create their own values," but they cannot 
explain what that means, aside from the right to do as they please.  They 
cannot seem to grasp the idea that values imply some principle of moral 
obligation.  -Christopher Lasch */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 15:01

Thoughts.

The Aliens Have Landed, and We Created Them 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-09/artificial-intelligence-the-aliens-have-landed-and-we-created-them__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!tWDWTeHTtSkaBkJLf0rAOawnDB5tnbvjCGj7Y7W7S8lkCdncMvt9ey-RGGKTWwcNI3lOn7ljvbxELUN4RIUGVPE$
 

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bob Bridges]

It's a quibble, but I'd say not that humans are causing it but that humans are 
influencing it.  We may be the most influential species on the planet, but not 
the only one, and biological life on earth is not the only cause of climate 
change.

I pause here to wonder:  Are we really the most influential species on the 
planet?  We're repeatedly told that the insects outnumber us bazillions to one 
and even outmass us considerably.  We don't count insects' influence on the 
climate, not because we think they have none but because they're part of 
nature; their influence is "built in", so to speak, but ours isn't; their 
influence is natural.  That's true, but only because "natural" is defined as 
"what happens when we don't change it"; we define nature and ourselves in two 
entirely different categories.  Hm, I'll have to think more on this.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Hello.  If you're calling with bad news, leave your message now.  If it's 
good news, wait for the tone.  -voicemail greeting */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:46

My beliefs are we are currently in a 6th mass extinction. The earth has already 
experienced 5. The difference is this one is caused by human activity. AI might 
be able to prevent it or perhaps just lengthen and delay its impact. Or wipe us 
out before it plays out.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/what-is-the-sixth-mass-extinction-and-what-can-we-do-about-it

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Joel C. Ewing]

While putting an AI computer in direct charge of life-extinction lethal 
force is an obvious no-no to anyone familiar with sci-fi doomsday 
scenarios, it doesn't take extremes like Colossus to cause potential 
disaster.


If humans ever get so dependent on AI that they blindly follow the 
"advice" of an AI assistant, all it takes is for AI to feed humans a 
mis-analysis of a life-threatening situation or potential extinction 
event and let the humans do the damage.   This doesn't require that the 
AI be sentient or self-preserving -- only that its advice be assumed 
valid and followed in situations where the AI is not capable of making 
good judgements or correctly assessing the consequences for humanity.  I 
see this as a more imminent danger than the future possibility of AI 
becoming sentient and deciding humans are a problem best eliminated.


As progress continues to be made on making AI increasingly complex and 
getting AI to emulate more and more of human behavior, it would also be 
presumptuous to assume that that we might not at some point accidentally 
construct an AI device capable of emulating bad human traits, like 
sociopathic or psychopathic behavior -- and it might not be obvious as 
humans with these issues sometimes hide it well.  This doesn't require 
the AI to be sentient to do damage, only that it give advice that is 
subtly not in the best interest of humanity.


I see no obvious way to stop AI "progress", but constant vigilance 
against abuse is obviously warranted.


    Joel C. Ewing

On 4/10/23 08:50, Bob Bridges wrote:

Or, of course, "Colossus: The Forbin Project", in which the computer
concludes that it must become the world's dictator in order to preserve
mankind from its own idiocies.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.  -ok, I
found it in a fortune cookie, but it's not bad */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 08:52

Or the chilling "The Humanoids" by Jack Williamson "To serve Man, and keep
him from harm".


From: Allan Staller <0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:23 AM

Why does the author omit the classic "I, Robot" by Issac Asimov.
Where the "AI" decides to protect humanity from itself.

That being said, I believe we are far from sentient AI at this point in
time.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bill Johnson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 2:01 PM

The Aliens Have Landed, and We Created Them
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-09/artificial-intelligenc
e-the-aliens-have-landed-and-we-created-them

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bob Bridges]

My best friend in high school and I have long-running debates on matters 
religious and political, and I have frequently caught him citing news sources 
that got the details wrong - so frequently that I am now in the habit of 
looking up (for example) Supreme-Court rulings to see what they actually say 
rather than what he said they say.

So now I'm skeptical again, not of Rex per se but of this story.  No point in 
asking Rex, since he says he won't post again (heh, heh), but does anyone else 
know where this story may have originated?  Is it in the news somewhere?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his 
spirit than he who captures a city.  -Proverbs 16:32 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:13

Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity.  Last month 
an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide after 
convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could save mankind 
from climate change.  Obviously the guy had other issues but somebody 
programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.  

We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo

My first and last post on this discussion.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Lionel B. Dyck]

Try this 
https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/married-father-commits-suicide-after-encouragement-by-ai-chatbot-widow/


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

My best friend in high school and I have long-running debates on matters 
religious and political, and I have frequently caught him citing news sources 
that got the details wrong - so frequently that I am now in the habit of 
looking up (for example) Supreme-Court rulings to see what they actually say 
rather than what he said they say.

So now I'm skeptical again, not of Rex per se but of this story.  No point in 
asking Rex, since he says he won't post again (heh, heh), but does anyone else 
know where this story may have originated?  Is it in the news somewhere?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his 
spirit than he who captures a city.  -Proverbs 16:32 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:13

Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity.  Last month 
an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide after 
convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could save mankind 
from climate change.  Obviously the guy had other issues but somebody 
programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.  

We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo

My first and last post on this discussion.

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Tom Marchant]

So much for not putting your information out on the internet.

-- 
Tom Marchant


On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 22:00:17 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>I don’t lie, cheat, steal, smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol. I do lots a 
>charity, give huge tips, help animal shelters, and much much more.
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bill Johnson]

This is another interesting read which supports scientists contention that the 
environment (man made global warming) is pushing species that cannot survive 
their current overheating climate towards the poles. Eventually, anything that 
lives near the equator will either migrate or die.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-climate-change-is-leaving-some-species-with-nowhere-left-to-go/




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 11:28 AM, Lionel B. Dyck  wrote:

Try this 
https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/married-father-commits-suicide-after-encouragement-by-ai-chatbot-widow/


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”  - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: AI wipes out humanity?

My best friend in high school and I have long-running debates on matters 
religious and political, and I have frequently caught him citing news sources 
that got the details wrong - so frequently that I am now in the habit of 
looking up (for example) Supreme-Court rulings to see what they actually say 
rather than what he said they say.

So now I'm skeptical again, not of Rex per se but of this story.  No point in 
asking Rex, since he says he won't post again (heh, heh), but does anyone else 
know where this story may have originated?  Is it in the news somewhere?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his 
spirit than he who captures a city.  -Proverbs 16:32 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:13

Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity.  Last month 
an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide after 
convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could save mankind 
from climate change.  Obviously the guy had other issues but somebody 
programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.  

We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo

My first and last post on this discussion.

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

Innocuous information.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

So much for not putting your information out on the internet.

-- 
Tom Marchant


On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 22:00:17 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>I don’t lie, cheat, steal, smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol. I do lots a 
>charity, give huge tips, help animal shelters, and much much more.
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails hacked, 
numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by locals who 
don’t like my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

So much for not putting your information out on the internet.

-- 
Tom Marchant


On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 22:00:17 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>I don’t lie, cheat, steal, smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol. I do lots a 
>charity, give huge tips, help animal shelters, and much much more.
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[David Spiegel]

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my 
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are 
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->


Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:

I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails hacked, 
numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by locals who 
don’t like my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

So much for not putting your information out on the internet.



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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

No, it’s 100% my political views. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my 
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are 
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
> that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
> hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
> locals who don’t like my political views.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

I used to be politically active. And being a progressive Democrat in a red, 
rather conservative area, leads to attacks like what is now in Tennessee now.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my 
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are 
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
> that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
> hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
> locals who don’t like my political views.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Bill, et. al.

Lets take this debate offline and keep this forum professional.
Argue with whomever you wish, but please do it privately.


































-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my political 
views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are not 
the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
> that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
> hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
> locals who don’t like my political views.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>

--
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::DISCLAIMER::

The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended 
for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be 
secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, 
destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. 
The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or 
opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and 
may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any 
form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, 
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

You assume I care what people think of me. I repost this. “Worry more about 
your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation 
merely what others think you are.”  - - - John Wooden


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my 
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are 
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
> that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
> hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
> locals who don’t like my political views.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>

--
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

I tried. But, it was others who keep attacking.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:37 PM, Allan Staller 
<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Classification: Confidential

Bill, et. al.

Lets take this debate offline and keep this forum professional.
Argue with whomever you wish, but please do it privately.


































-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my political 
views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are not 
the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
> that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
> hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
> locals who don’t like my political views.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>

--
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lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
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::DISCLAIMER::

The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended 
for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be 
secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, 
destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. 
The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or 
opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and 
may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any 
form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, 
distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written 
consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have 
received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender 
immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for 
viruses and other defects.


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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Doug]

Be assured, it is NOT!

Doug Fuerst
Principal Consultant
BK Associates
718.921.2620 (O)
917.572.7364 (C)
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:

 I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails hacked, 
numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by locals who 
don’t like my political views.


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 So much for not putting your information out on the internet.



--
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:

Be assured, it is NOT!

Doug Fuerst
Principal Consultant
BK Associates
718.921.2620 (O)
917.572.7364 (C)
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

>No, it’s 100% my political views.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>Hi Bill,
>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
>political views. ..."
>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
>not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
>>important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
>>that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
>>hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
>>locals who don’t like my political views.
>>
>>
>>  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>  On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
>><000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Doug]

Be assured, it is not the only reason

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:

 I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails hacked, 
numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by locals who 
don’t like my political views.


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 So much for not putting your information out on the internet.



--
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Language Environment custom messages

[Frank Swarbrick]

At https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=cm-creating-message-source-file 
is documented creating of a "message source file" for custom LE messages.  Is 
anyone besides me using this?  I am having an issue with the ":newline" not 
seeming to do anything at all, and definitely not what it appears to be 
documented as doing.  Specifically "The :newline. tag creates a new message 
line that can be used for multiline messages." My observation is that it 
neither creates a new message line nor does it insert any control characters 
that would represent the beginning of a new line.

Here's an example message configuration:

:msgno.1010
:msgsubid.1
:msgname.AIB-Results
:msgclass.I
:msg.DL/I AIB call, unexpected rtn/rsn
:tab.+1
:ins 1.
:msg./
:ins 2.
:msg. (
:ins 3.
:msg./
:ins 4.
:msg.) for args:
:newline
:ins 5.
:tab.+1
:ins 6.
:tab.+1
:ins 7.
:msg..

This should (to my understanding!) start insert 5 on a new line, but it is not 
doing so.  No space, no control character, no nothing between the colon in 
"args:" and the value of insert #5.

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Rex Pommier]

Hi Allan,

I and most of the rest on the list agree completely.  Here's a radical idea.  
How about when we see an inappropriate post, we just do 1 of 2 things - reply 
privately back to the offender telling them that this isn't the place and/or 
simply delete the post.  Don't give them the satisfaction of seeing you riled 
up.  If enough of us just ignored the garbage, eventually it will stop.  

Rex

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 16:36:39 +, Allan Staller  wrote:

>Classification: Confidential
>
>Bill, et. al.
>
>Lets take this debate offline and keep this forum professional.
>Argue with whomever you wish, but please do it privately.
>
>
>

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Doug]

The clueless generally do...

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:

Be assured, it is NOT!

Doug Fuerst
Principal Consultant
BK Associates
718.921.2620 (O)
917.572.7364 (C)
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:

  I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails hacked, 
numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by locals who 
don’t like my political views.


  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


  On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

  So much for not putting your information out on the internet.



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Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

[Frank Swarbrick]

I agree that you should be able to do dynamic calls under CICS to any routine, 
and only the EXEC CICS commands need be static.  In fact, even EXEC SQL can do 
dynamic calls if you define the appropriate entry point (DSNHLI or DSNHLI2, I 
believe) as a "program".  Program auto-install would likely help (though we 
don't use it ourselves at the moment).

Also worth noting that if you use the newish COBOL compiler directive 
">>CALLINTERFACE DYNAMIC" you can even use CALL literal to get dynamic calls 
under CICS.  Only EXEC CICS and, I believe, EXEC SQL would remain static calls. 
 (The "dynamic" SQL calls I refer to above are for programs without any EXEC 
CICS statements, and thus compiled using "batch rules" instead of CICS.)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 12:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

The only CICS routines that MUST be statically linked are the DFH 
subroutines that are called as the result of coding CICS commands like EXEC 
CICS LINK or EXEC SQL SELECT.  AFAIK, any user-written program can be defined 
to RDO including those with national characters ($#@) in the name.

I am curious, in what case(s) do you believe that a callable subroutine could 
NOT be definable in RDO?

Unless it is for very high frequency user programs where maximum performance is 
critical, statically linked functional subroutines (under CICS or not) are a 
maintenance nightmare, because when (not if) those subroutines need to change, 
whether for new function or for defect repair, EVERY program that statically 
linked them must be re-linked and (more costly and more critically) MUST be 
re-tested for quality assurance.

And even for high performance requirements, the EXEC CICS LINK (or better, a 
plain COBOL CALL variable-name, even under CICS) has a fairly efficient path to 
execute already-loaded subroutines, and if they are being used frequently they 
are almost surely already loaded in memory.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 2:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

The other reason for the literal calls is because one wants the load module to 
have the subroutines statically linked that the COBOL program is using. In this 
way there is no LOAD done during execution time because COBOL "knows" that 
these are statically linked.

There are a few reasons to want this behavior.

The major one that comes to mind is you have to have static linkage for running 
in a CICS environment because the subroutines are not CICS definable (RDO) and 
so have to be statically linked.

Steve Thompson

On 4/8/2023 1:50 AM, Farley, Peter wrote:
> Not true for non-static calls.  We are past COBOL 5 (V6.2 at the moment) and 
> "CALL variable USING . . . " where "variable" has any of the "national" 
> characters ($#@) works every time.  We have multiple dynamically called 
> utility subroutines with those characters in the program name.
>
> Why in the world are you using literal calls?  Or are you using the DYNAM 
> option to convert literal calls to dynamic ones?  If so, bite the bullet - 
> convert them to "CALL variable" and you are done.
>
> The only legitimate case I have seen for using literal CALL's is when you are 
> using nested subroutine programs in the same source file as the calling 
> program.
>
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Frank Swarbrick
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:07 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???
>
> I've tried calling modules (that exist!) with both '@' and '#' signs in them 
> and Enterprise COBOL 5+ does not allow this.  COBOL 4 allowed this.  Is there 
> any good reason why this is the case?
--

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the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

Hilarious. Obviously, you missed my age Doug. I’m 66. A baby boomer. My bet is 
most of the people here are over 50. Some in their 70’s & 80’s. Not looking at 
you Seymour. I grew up when my generation was fighting for “free love”, “drug 
legalization”, abortion rights, civil rights, police brutality, etc etc. I’m 
not sure what happened to my generation. Perhaps Reagan. I never thought I’d be 
fighting for the same things 50 years later.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:52 PM, Doug  wrote:

The clueless generally do...

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

>Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
>Be assured, it is NOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>Principal Consultant
>BK Associates
>718.921.2620 (O)
>917.572.7364 (C)
>d...@bkassociates.net
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
>Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
>>No, it’s 100% my political views.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
>><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Bill,
>>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
>>political views. ..."
>>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
>>not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
>>
>>Regards,
>>David
>>
>>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
>>>important on the internet. Anything that could identify important 
>>>information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous 
>>>emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been 
>>>threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
>>><000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>>>
>>
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Seymour J Metz]

Our disappointment in the events of the past half century is best discussed 
off-list.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 1:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

Hilarious. Obviously, you missed my age Doug. I’m 66. A baby boomer. My bet is 
most of the people here are over 50. Some in their 70’s & 80’s. Not looking at 
you Seymour. I grew up when my generation was fighting for “free love”, “drug 
legalization”, abortion rights, civil rights, police brutality, etc etc. I’m 
not sure what happened to my generation. Perhaps Reagan. I never thought I’d be 
fighting for the same things 50 years later.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:52 PM, Doug  wrote:

The clueless generally do...

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

>Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
>Be assured, it is NOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>Principal Consultant
>BK Associates
>718.921.2620 (O)
>917.572.7364 (C)
>d...@bkassociates.net
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
>Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
>>No, it’s 100% my political views.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
>><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Bill,
>>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
>>political views. ..."
>>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
>>not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
>>
>>Regards,
>>David
>>
>>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
>>>important on the internet. Anything that could identify important 
>>>information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous 
>>>emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been 
>>>threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
>>><000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>>>
>>
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Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

[Frank Swarbrick]

Interesting.  Apparently it works for both PGMNAME(COMPAT) and 
PGMNAME(LONGMIXED), but not for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER), which is what we are using.

  19 001600 procedure division. 
  
  20 001610 call '@SEPTEST' 
  EXT 

  
==20==> IGYPS0025-E Name "'@SEPTEST'" was invalid.  It was processed as 
"0SEPTEST".   

  
==20==> IGYPG0020-W Name "0SEPTEST" was processed as "JSEPTEST".
  

  
  21 001700 goback. 
  

Sounds like a bug.  Though unlike what I said, E.COBOL v4.2 has the same issue. 
 The difference for me was we had 4.2 set with PGMNAME(COMPAT) while 5+ we have 
PGMNAME(LONGUPPER).

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

A call to '@SEPTEST' compiles for me with both DYNAM and NODYNAM on COBOL for 
z/OS 6.20. Per the PGMNAME compile option, this is allowed in all settings of 
that option.

What do you have for FLAGSTD?

Can you post the exact compile error?

Note that such a program id would need to be enclosed in quotes for that to 
compile.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2023 1:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I am indeed using DYNAM.

I have no great need for this to work.  Just something I noticed and was 
curious about.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 11:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Not true for non-static calls.  We are past COBOL 5 (V6.2 at the moment) and 
"CALL variable USING . . . " where "variable" has any of the "national" 
characters ($#@) works every time.  We have multiple dynamically called utility 
subroutines with those characters in the program name.

Why in the world are you using literal calls?  Or are you using the DYNAM 
option to convert literal calls to dynamic ones?  If so, bite the bullet - 
convert them to "CALL variable" and you are done.

The only legitimate case I have seen for using literal CALL's is when you are 
using nested subroutine programs in the same source file as the calling program.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I've tried calling modules (that exist!) with both '@' and '#' signs in them 
and Enterprise COBOL 5+ does not allow this.  COBOL 4 allowed this.  Is there 
any good reason why this is the case?
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Chicklon, Thomas]

A voice of reason Allan, thanks for saying what many of us are thinking.

I really miss the days when this was a moderated forum and the NOPOST setting 
would occasionally be used to keep things on track.

More noise than IBM mainframe discussion lately.

Tom Chicklon

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Allan Staller
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


Lets take this debate offline and keep this forum professional.
Argue with whomever you wish, but please do it privately.


































-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my political 
views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are not 
the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
> that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails 
> hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by 
> locals who don’t like my political views.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Tom Marchant]

Give it a rest Bill.
No one here ever said that they know it all.
Hundreds of times a week? Nope.
Lately you come the closest. Of the 382 posts this month, 48 are from you. And 
many of those include complaints about people who you claim know less than you, 
and a lot of boasting about your knowledge and qualifications.

Sorry for feeding the trolls.

-- 
Tom Marchant


On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 23:38:39 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>First off, I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend 
>simple English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at 
>everything and post hundreds of times a week.

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Doug]

So what? Who cares how old you are?
This is supposed to be a technical forum, not a "how great Bill Johnson 
is and how great are his politics forum."

Why don't you try and keep it to that.
I am tired of your narcissistic, self centered ramblings.


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 13:13:07
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


Hilarious. Obviously, you missed my age Doug. I’m 66. A baby boomer. My bet is most 
of the people here are over 50. Some in their 70’s & 80’s. Not looking at you 
Seymour. I grew up when my generation was fighting for “free love”, “drug 
legalization”, abortion rights, civil rights, police brutality, etc etc. I’m not 
sure what happened to my generation. Perhaps Reagan. I never thought I’d be 
fighting for the same things 50 years later.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:52 PM, Doug  wrote:

The clueless generally do...

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:

Be assured, it is NOT!

Doug Fuerst
Principal Consultant
BK Associates
718.921.2620 (O)
917.572.7364 (C)
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)


No, it’s 100% my political views.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
political views. ..."
Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->

Regards,
David

On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:

  I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
important on the internet. Anything that could identify important information 
that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous emails hacked, 
numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been threatened by locals who 
don’t like my political views.


  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


  On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

  So much for not putting your information out on the internet.



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Re: Language Environment custom messages

[Frank Swarbrick]

Cancel.
I missed the period after ":newline".
I swear I tried that before, but I guess not.

Any time I want to solve a simple problem I just need to post to the list then 
try something else after that and it works!  Or so it seems.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Language Environment custom messages

At https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=cm-creating-message-source-file 
is documented creating of a "message source file" for custom LE messages.  Is 
anyone besides me using this?  I am having an issue with the ":newline" not 
seeming to do anything at all, and definitely not what it appears to be 
documented as doing.  Specifically "The :newline. tag creates a new message 
line that can be used for multiline messages." My observation is that it 
neither creates a new message line nor does it insert any control characters 
that would represent the beginning of a new line.

Here's an example message configuration:

:msgno.1010
:msgsubid.1
:msgname.AIB-Results
:msgclass.I
:msg.DL/I AIB call, unexpected rtn/rsn
:tab.+1
:ins 1.
:msg./
:ins 2.
:msg. (
:ins 3.
:msg./
:ins 4.
:msg.) for args:
:newline
:ins 5.
:tab.+1
:ins 6.
:tab.+1
:ins 7.
:msg..

This should (to my understanding!) start insert 5 on a new line, but it is not 
doing so.  No space, no control character, no nothing between the colon in 
"args:" and the value of insert #5.

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Re: Language Environment custom messages

[Rupert Reynolds]

I'm not familiar with these custom messages, but have you tried a trailing
"." i.e. ":newline."? Only a hunch, mind you...

Rexx

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023, 17:46 Frank Swarbrick, 
wrote:

> At
> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=cm-creating-message-source-file
> is documented creating of a "message source file" for custom LE messages.
> Is anyone besides me using this?  I am having an issue with the ":newline"
> not seeming to do anything at all, and definitely not what it appears to be
> documented as doing.  Specifically "The :newline. tag creates a new message
> line that can be used for multiline messages." My observation is that it
> neither creates a new message line nor does it insert any control
> characters that would represent the beginning of a new line.
>
> Here's an example message configuration:
>
> :msgno.1010
> :msgsubid.1
> :msgname.AIB-Results
> :msgclass.I
> :msg.DL/I AIB call, unexpected rtn/rsn
> :tab.+1
> :ins 1.
> :msg./
> :ins 2.
> :msg. (
> :ins 3.
> :msg./
> :ins 4.
> :msg.) for args:
> :newline
> :ins 5.
> :tab.+1
> :ins 6.
> :tab.+1
> :ins 7.
> :msg..
>
> This should (to my understanding!) start insert 5 on a new line, but it is
> not doing so.  No space, no control character, no nothing between the colon
> in "args:" and the value of insert #5.
>
> -
>

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Itschak Mugzach]

Well said.

בתאריך יום ב׳, 10 באפר׳ 2023 ב-20:39 מאת Doug :

> So what? Who cares how old you are?
> This is supposed to be a technical forum, not a "how great Bill Johnson
> is and how great are his politics forum."
> Why don't you try and keep it to that.
> I am tired of your narcissistic, self centered ramblings.
>
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 10-Apr-23 13:13:07
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> >Hilarious. Obviously, you missed my age Doug. I’m 66. A baby boomer. My
> bet is most of the people here are over 50. Some in their 70’s & 80’s. Not
> looking at you Seymour. I grew up when my generation was fighting for “free
> love”, “drug legalization”, abortion rights, civil rights, police
> brutality, etc etc. I’m not sure what happened to my generation. Perhaps
> Reagan. I never thought I’d be fighting for the same things 50 years later.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:52 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >The clueless generally do...
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
> >Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
> >
> >>Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >>
> >>Be assured, it is NOT!
> >>
> >>Doug Fuerst
> >>Principal Consultant
> >>BK Associates
> >>718.921.2620 (O)
> >>917.572.7364 (C)
> >>d...@bkassociates.net
> >>
> >>-- Original Message --
> >>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >>Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
> >>Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
> >>
> >>>No, it’s 100% my political views.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel <
> 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Hi Bill,
> >>>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
> >>>political views. ..."
> >>>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" are
> >>>not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>David
> >>>
> >>>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
>    I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put
> anything important on the internet. Anything that could identify important
> information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous
> emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been
> threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
> 
> 
>    Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
>    On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant <
> 000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
>    So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
> 
> >>>
> >>>--
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> >>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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> >>>
> >>>
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Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for Z/OS, zLinux
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Re: Language Environment custom messages

[Frank Swarbrick]

I thought I had, but apparently not!  Now working.  Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rupert Reynolds
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Environment custom messages

I'm not familiar with these custom messages, but have you tried a trailing "." 
i.e. ":newline."? Only a hunch, mind you...

Rexx

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023, 17:46 Frank Swarbrick, 
wrote:

> At
> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=cm-creating-message-source
> -file is documented creating of a "message source file" for custom LE 
> messages.
> Is anyone besides me using this?  I am having an issue with the ":newline"
> not seeming to do anything at all, and definitely not what it appears 
> to be documented as doing.  Specifically "The :newline. tag creates a 
> new message line that can be used for multiline messages." My 
> observation is that it neither creates a new message line nor does it 
> insert any control characters that would represent the beginning of a new 
> line.
>
> Here's an example message configuration:
>
> :msgno.1010
> :msgsubid.1
> :msgname.AIB-Results
> :msgclass.I
> :msg.DL/I AIB call, unexpected rtn/rsn
> :tab.+1
> :ins 1.
> :msg./
> :ins 2.
> :msg. (
> :ins 3.
> :msg./
> :ins 4.
> :msg.) for args:
> :newline
> :ins 5.
> :tab.+1
> :ins 6.
> :tab.+1
> :ins 7.
> :msg..
>
> This should (to my understanding!) start insert 5 on a new line, but 
> it is not doing so.  No space, no control character, no nothing 
> between the colon in "args:" and the value of insert #5.
>
> -
>

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Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

[Schmitt, Michael]

Ah, I'm compiling with PGMNAME(COMPAT).


And I misread the documentation for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER). This behavior is 
conforming to the documentation. It says that PGMNAME(COMPAT) can contain 
national characters:

"All the characters used in the name must be alphabetic, digits, the hyphen, or 
the underscore, except
that if the program-name is a literal and is in the outermost program, then the 
literal can also contain
the extension characters @, #, and $, and the first character can be an 
underscore."

And that for PGMNAME(LONGMIXED) it can contain any character in the range x'41' 
- x'FE',

But PGMNAME(LONGUPPER) only allows for alphabetic, digits, hyphen, underscore. 
@, #, $ are not alphabetic.


What's interesting is that PGMNAME(COMPAT) says that:

If the first character is not alphabetic, and is not an underscore, it is 
converted as follows:
- 1-9 are translated to A-I.
- Anything else is translated to J.

I think this is a documentation error. You can call literal to a name like 
'@SESTEST' without conversion, and you can use it as a program id as long as it 
is in quotes.


It is true that it *used to be* that you couldn't have a program-id starting 
with @. I don't know at what point that restriction was lifted. Maybe with IBM 
COBOL?


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Interesting.  Apparently it works for both PGMNAME(COMPAT) and 
PGMNAME(LONGMIXED), but not for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER), which is what we are using.

  19 001600 procedure division.
  20 001610 call '@SEPTEST' 
  EXT

==20==> IGYPS0025-E Name "'@SEPTEST'" was invalid.  It was processed as 
"0SEPTEST".

==20==> IGYPG0020-W Name "0SEPTEST" was processed as "JSEPTEST".

  21 001700 goback.

Sounds like a bug.  Though unlike what I said, E.COBOL v4.2 has the same issue. 
 The difference for me was we had 4.2 set with PGMNAME(COMPAT) while 5+ we have 
PGMNAME(LONGUPPER).

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

A call to '@SEPTEST' compiles for me with both DYNAM and NODYNAM on COBOL for 
z/OS 6.20. Per the PGMNAME compile option, this is allowed in all settings of 
that option.

What do you have for FLAGSTD?

Can you post the exact compile error?

Note that such a program id would need to be enclosed in quotes for that to 
compile.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2023 1:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I am indeed using DYNAM.

I have no great need for this to work.  Just something I noticed and was 
curious about.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 11:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Not true for non-static calls.  We are past COBOL 5 (V6.2 at the moment) and 
"CALL variable USING . . . " where "variable" has any of the "national" 
characters ($#@) works every time.  We have multiple dynamically called utility 
subroutines with those characters in the program name.

Why in the world are you using literal calls?  Or are you using the DYNAM 
option to convert literal calls to dynamic ones?  If so, bite the bullet - 
convert them to "CALL variable" and you are done.

The only legitimate case I have seen for using literal CALL's is when you are 
using nested subroutine programs in the same source file as the calling program.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I've tried calling modules (that exist!) with both '@' and '#' signs in them 
and Enterprise COBOL 5+ does not allow this.  COBOL 4 allowed this.  Is there 
any good reason why this is the case?
--

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[John Abell]

Jeff managed to get the original files unscrambled into 1 file so I think we 
are good for now.  He had to use 7zip to do it.

John T. Abell   
Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
President 
International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
Fax:800-295-7609

International:  1-416-593-5579


International Software Products
www.ispinfo.com


This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution or 
disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended 
recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient), please 
contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. 
Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception, 
tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive emails 
on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, 
tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Doug
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

The clueless generally do...

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

>Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
>Be assured, it is NOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>Principal Consultant
>BK Associates
>718.921.2620 (O)
>917.572.7364 (C)
>d...@bkassociates.net
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
>Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
>>No, it’s 100% my political views.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
>><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Bill,
>>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my 
>>political views. ..."
>>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" 
>>are not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
>>
>>Regards,
>>David
>>
>>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>   I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
>>> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important 
>>> information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous 
>>> emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been 
>>> threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
>>> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>   So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
>>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
>>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
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>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[John Abell]

Please ignore my previous message.

John T. Abell   
Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
President 
International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
Fax:800-295-7609

International:  1-416-593-5579


International Software Products
www.ispinfo.com


This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution or 
disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended 
recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient), please 
contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. 
Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception, 
tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive emails 
on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, 
tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John Abell
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

Jeff managed to get the original files unscrambled into 1 file so I think we 
are good for now.  He had to use 7zip to do it.

John T. Abell   
Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
President
International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
Fax:800-295-7609

International:  1-416-593-5579


International Software Products
www.ispinfo.com


This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution or 
disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended 
recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient), please 
contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. 
Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering, 
unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive emails on the 
basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, tampering, 
amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Doug
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

The clueless generally do...

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

>Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
>Be assured, it is NOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>Principal Consultant
>BK Associates
>718.921.2620 (O)
>917.572.7364 (C)
>d...@bkassociates.net
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
>Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
>>No, it’s 100% my political views.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel 
>><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Bill,
>>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my 
>>political views. ..."
>>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views" 
>>are not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
>>
>>Regards,
>>David
>>
>>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>   I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put anything 
>>> important on the internet. Anything that could identify important 
>>> information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous 
>>> emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been 
>>> threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant 
>>> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>   So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
>>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
>>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
>>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>-

Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

[Frank Swarbrick]

Quite odd, I'll say.  But at least I have an answer.  Thanks!
I wonder why LONGUPPER has the restrictions it does.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Ah, I'm compiling with PGMNAME(COMPAT).


And I misread the documentation for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER). This behavior is 
conforming to the documentation. It says that PGMNAME(COMPAT) can contain 
national characters:

"All the characters used in the name must be alphabetic, digits, the hyphen, or 
the underscore, except that if the program-name is a literal and is in the 
outermost program, then the literal can also contain the extension characters 
@, #, and $, and the first character can be an underscore."

And that for PGMNAME(LONGMIXED) it can contain any character in the range x'41' 
- x'FE',

But PGMNAME(LONGUPPER) only allows for alphabetic, digits, hyphen, underscore. 
@, #, $ are not alphabetic.


What's interesting is that PGMNAME(COMPAT) says that:

If the first character is not alphabetic, and is not an underscore, it is 
converted as follows:
- 1-9 are translated to A-I.
- Anything else is translated to J.

I think this is a documentation error. You can call literal to a name like 
'@SESTEST' without conversion, and you can use it as a program id as long as it 
is in quotes.


It is true that it *used to be* that you couldn't have a program-id starting 
with @. I don't know at what point that restriction was lifted. Maybe with IBM 
COBOL?


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Interesting.  Apparently it works for both PGMNAME(COMPAT) and 
PGMNAME(LONGMIXED), but not for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER), which is what we are using.

  19 001600 procedure division.
  20 001610 call '@SEPTEST' 
  EXT

==20==> IGYPS0025-E Name "'@SEPTEST'" was invalid.  It was processed as 
"0SEPTEST".

==20==> IGYPG0020-W Name "0SEPTEST" was processed as "JSEPTEST".

  21 001700 goback.

Sounds like a bug.  Though unlike what I said, E.COBOL v4.2 has the same issue. 
 The difference for me was we had 4.2 set with PGMNAME(COMPAT) while 5+ we have 
PGMNAME(LONGUPPER).

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

A call to '@SEPTEST' compiles for me with both DYNAM and NODYNAM on COBOL for 
z/OS 6.20. Per the PGMNAME compile option, this is allowed in all settings of 
that option.

What do you have for FLAGSTD?

Can you post the exact compile error?

Note that such a program id would need to be enclosed in quotes for that to 
compile.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2023 1:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I am indeed using DYNAM.

I have no great need for this to work.  Just something I noticed and was 
curious about.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 11:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Not true for non-static calls.  We are past COBOL 5 (V6.2 at the moment) and 
"CALL variable USING . . . " where "variable" has any of the "national" 
characters ($#@) works every time.  We have multiple dynamically called utility 
subroutines with those characters in the program name.

Why in the world are you using literal calls?  Or are you using the DYNAM 
option to convert literal calls to dynamic ones?  If so, bite the bullet - 
convert them to "CALL variable" and you are done.

The only legitimate case I have seen for using literal CALL's is when you are 
using nested subroutine programs in the same source file as the calling program.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I've tried calling modules (that exist!) with both '@' and '#' signs in them 
and Enterprise COBOL 5+ does not allow this.  COBOL 4 allowed this.  Is there 
any good reason why this is the case?
--

This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the re

Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

[Farley, Peter]

Could it be as simple (and as really dumb) as that the national characters 
($#@) when "OR"ed with X'40' (the "quick and dirty" way to upper-case EBCDIC 
letters) don't change their value (they all already have the X'40' bit on)?

Or worse, because the "convention" for translating underscore characters in 
"LONG" member-names has already pre-empted the conversion "_" => "@"?

Just speculating, I have no inside knowledge about this restriction.  It is odd 
though.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 2:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Quite odd, I'll say.  But at least I have an answer.  Thanks!
I wonder why LONGUPPER has the restrictions it does.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Ah, I'm compiling with PGMNAME(COMPAT).


And I misread the documentation for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER). This behavior is 
conforming to the documentation. It says that PGMNAME(COMPAT) can contain 
national characters:

"All the characters used in the name must be alphabetic, digits, the hyphen, or 
the underscore, except that if the program-name is a literal and is in the 
outermost program, then the literal can also contain the extension characters 
@, #, and $, and the first character can be an underscore."

And that for PGMNAME(LONGMIXED) it can contain any character in the range x'41' 
- x'FE',

But PGMNAME(LONGUPPER) only allows for alphabetic, digits, hyphen, underscore. 
@, #, $ are not alphabetic.


What's interesting is that PGMNAME(COMPAT) says that:

If the first character is not alphabetic, and is not an underscore, it is 
converted as follows:
- 1-9 are translated to A-I.
- Anything else is translated to J.

I think this is a documentation error. You can call literal to a name like 
'@SESTEST' without conversion, and you can use it as a program id as long as it 
is in quotes.


It is true that it *used to be* that you couldn't have a program-id starting 
with @. I don't know at what point that restriction was lifted. Maybe with IBM 
COBOL?


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Interesting.  Apparently it works for both PGMNAME(COMPAT) and 
PGMNAME(LONGMIXED), but not for PGMNAME(LONGUPPER), which is what we are using.

  19 001600 procedure division.
  20 001610 call '@SEPTEST' 
  EXT

==20==> IGYPS0025-E Name "'@SEPTEST'" was invalid.  It was processed as 
"0SEPTEST".

==20==> IGYPG0020-W Name "0SEPTEST" was processed as "JSEPTEST".

  21 001700 goback.

Sounds like a bug.  Though unlike what I said, E.COBOL v4.2 has the same issue. 
 The difference for me was we had 4.2 set with PGMNAME(COMPAT) while 5+ we have 
PGMNAME(LONGUPPER).

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 8:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

A call to '@SEPTEST' compiles for me with both DYNAM and NODYNAM on COBOL for 
z/OS 6.20. Per the PGMNAME compile option, this is allowed in all settings of 
that option.

What do you have for FLAGSTD?

Can you post the exact compile error?

Note that such a program id would need to be enclosed in quotes for that to 
compile.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2023 1:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

I am indeed using DYNAM.

I have no great need for this to work.  Just something I noticed and was 
curious about.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 11:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Cobol calling module with non alphanumeric no longer allowed???

Not true for non-static calls.  We are past COBOL 5 (V6.2 at the moment) and 
"CALL variable USING . . . " where "variable" has any of the "national" 
characters ($#@) works every time.  We have multiple dynamically called utility 
subroutines with those characters in the program name.

Why in the world are you using literal calls?  Or are you using the DYNAM 
option to convert literal calls to dynamic ones?  If so, bite the bullet - 
convert them to "CALL variable" and you are done.

The only legitimate case I have seen for 

Re: COBOL question

[Cameron Conacher]

Thanks.
Just to be clear.
I am running under EXPEDITER.
The program runs almost to completion.
The last two things I do:

  1.  If the Address is not NULL -> FREE
  2.  GOBACK.


Thanks

…….Cameron

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Joe 
Monk
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 9:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: COBOL question

A lot of times, U4038 is not enough region...

Joe

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 6:15 AM Cameron Conacher <
03cfc59146bb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 wrote:

> Good call 😊
>
> I ALLOCATE once.
> And just before GOBACK, I issue the FREE. Just one time.
> I am thinking it might be related to EXPEDITER.
>
> That is my current WAG.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> …….Cameron
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf
> Of Charles Mills
> Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 8:07 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [External] Re: COBOL question
>
> I can't see your code of course but my WAG is a programmer logic error.
> (Sorry!) I am going to guess your logic is such that you try to free the
> same area twice or, less likely, corrupt your pointer.
>
> You say you check to see if it is null before freeing. Do you set it to
> NULL after freeing?
>
> Charles
>
> On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 23:01:05 +, Cameron Conacher <
> cameron.conac...@aexp.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks Bob,
> >No I initialize the Pointer to NULL, and then allocate. Successfully.
> >And then later I check to see it the pointer = NULL. If it is not NULL,
> then I do the FREE.
>
> --
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Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[zMan]

Why, John? It had the highest S:N ratio of the entire thread!

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:16 PM John Abell <
john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com> wrote:

> Please ignore my previous message.
>
> John T. Abell
> Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
> President
> International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
> E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
> Fax:800-295-7609
>
> International:  1-416-593-5579
>
>
> International Software Products
> www.ispinfo.com
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution
> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient),
> please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this
> message. Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception,
> tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive
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> interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of John Abell
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 1:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> Jeff managed to get the original files unscrambled into 1 file so I think
> we are good for now.  He had to use 7zip to do it.
>
> John T. Abell
> Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
> President
> International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
> E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
> Fax:800-295-7609
>
> International:  1-416-593-5579
>
>
> International Software Products
> www.ispinfo.com
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution
> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient),
> please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this
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> tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive
> emails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,
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>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Doug
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:47 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> The clueless generally do...
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> >Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Be assured, it is NOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >Principal Consultant
> >BK Associates
> >718.921.2620 (O)
> >917.572.7364 (C)
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
> >Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
> >
> >>No, it’s 100% my political views.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel <
> 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>Hi Bill,
> >>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
> >>political views. ..."
> >>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views"
> >>are not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>David
> >>
> >>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>>   I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put
> anything important on the internet. Anything that could identify important
> information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous
> emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been
> threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant <
> 000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>   So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> >>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe

Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[John Abell]

I bet.  Well not as exciting as the COBOL Item.

John T. Abell   
Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
President 
International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
Fax:800-295-7609

International:  1-416-593-5579


International Software Products
www.ispinfo.com


This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution or 
disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended 
recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient), please 
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Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception, 
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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of zMan
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 2:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

Why, John? It had the highest S:N ratio of the entire thread!

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:16 PM John Abell < 
john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com> wrote:

> Please ignore my previous message.
>
> John T. Abell
> Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
> President
> International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
> E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
> Fax:800-295-7609
>
> International:  1-416-593-5579
>
>
> International Software Products
> www.ispinfo.com
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the 
> sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, 
> distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you 
> are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of 
> the named recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and 
> delete all copies of this message. Also,email is susceptible to data 
> corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and 
> viruses. We only send and receive emails on the basis that we are not 
> liable for any such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses 
> or any consequence thereof.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
> On Behalf Of John Abell
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 1:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> Jeff managed to get the original files unscrambled into 1 file so I 
> think we are good for now.  He had to use 7zip to do it.
>
> John T. Abell
> Tel:800-295-7608Option 4
> President
> International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
> E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
> Fax:800-295-7609
>
> International:  1-416-593-5579
>
>
> International Software Products
> www.ispinfo.com
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the 
> sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, 
> distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you 
> are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of 
> the named recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and 
> delete all copies of this message. Also,email is susceptible to data 
> corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and 
> viruses. We only send and receive emails on the basis that we are not 
> liable for any such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses 
> or any consequence thereof.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
> On Behalf Of Doug
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:47 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> The clueless generally do...
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> >Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Be assured, it is NOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >Principal Consultant
> >BK Associates
> >718.921.2620 (O)
> >917.572.7364 (C)
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
> >Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
> >
> >>No, it’s 100% my political views.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel <
> 000

Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)

[Bill Johnson]

If they were selling advertising, they’d want me to post more often.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 2:51 PM, zMan  wrote:

Why, John? It had the highest S:N ratio of the entire thread!

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:16 PM John Abell <
john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com> wrote:

> Please ignore my previous message.
>
> John T. Abell
> Tel:            800-295-7608    Option 4
> President
> International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
> E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
> Fax:            800-295-7609
>
> International:  1-416-593-5579
>
>
> International Software Products
> www.ispinfo.com
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution
> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient),
> please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this
> message. Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception,
> tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive
> emails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,
> interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of John Abell
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 1:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> Jeff managed to get the original files unscrambled into 1 file so I think
> we are good for now.  He had to use 7zip to do it.
>
> John T. Abell
> Tel:            800-295-7608    Option 4
> President
> International:  1-416-593-5578  Option 4
> E-mail:  john.ab...@intnlsoftwareproducts.com
> Fax:            800-295-7609
>
> International:  1-416-593-5579
>
>
> International Software Products
> www.ispinfo.com
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution
> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient (or authorized to receive on behalf of the named recipient),
> please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this
> message. Also,email is susceptible to data corruption, interception,
> tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive
> emails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,
> interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Doug
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 12:47 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> The clueless generally do...
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:42:53
> Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
>
> >Don’t care Doug. I’ll sleep fine tonight.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:40 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Be assured, it is NOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >Principal Consultant
> >BK Associates
> >718.921.2620 (O)
> >917.572.7364 (C)
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 10-Apr-23 12:32:41
> >Subject: Re: Not aging well (know-it-alls)
> >
> >>No, it’s 100% my political views.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:31 PM, David Spiegel <
> 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>Hi Bill,
> >>You said: "... and I’ve been threatened by locals who don’t like my
> >>political views. ..."
> >>Have you ever considered the possibility that your "political views"
> >>are not the only reason they don't like you? {:}->
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>David
> >>
> >>On 2023-04-10 12:25, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>>  I should have clarified my information statement. I don’t put
> anything important on the internet. Anything that could identify important
> information that might be used in nefarious ways. I’ve already had numerous
> emails hacked, numerous credit cards used from hacks, and I’ve been
> threatened by locals who don’t like my political views.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  On Monday, April 10, 2023, 12:06 PM, Tom Marchant <
> 000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  So much for not putting your information out on the internet.
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> >>email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu wi

Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Phil Smith III]

Rex Pommier wrote:
>Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity. Last
>month an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide
>after convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could
>save mankind from climate change. Obviously the guy had other issues
>but somebody programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.

Rex, the scary part about AI is that nobody programmed it to respond that
way-it learned how to do so on its own. That's an important difference: it
was taught to learn, and it learned to do this.


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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Steve Thompson]

I know, dead horse, but still, this is a reason to start looking 
at the "Rules of Robotics" and implement them now at the bare 
metal level if possible. It would thwart malware (well, we can 
hope).


Steve Thompson

On 4/10/2023 3:01 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:

Rex Pommier wrote:

Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity. Last
month an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide
after convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could
save mankind from climate change. Obviously the guy had other issues
but somebody programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.

Rex, the scary part about AI is that nobody programmed it to respond that
way-it learned how to do so on its own. That's an important difference: it
was taught to learn, and it learned to do this.


--
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Regards,
Steve Thompson
VS Strategies LLC
Westfield IN
972-983-9430 cell

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bob Bridges]

The articles I was able to find on the Belgian suicide all cited the AI's
contributions third-hand; they never quoted anything the AI said, only "the
man considered suicide and the AI encouraged this, according to his widow"
and like that.  I'd be interested to see what it actually wrote.

That sounds like I'm being skeptical, but in fact I read another lengthy
article (about chatGPT, I think this one was) that quoted quite a bit of the
conversation and it got surprisingly acrimonious.  I mean, ~any~ level of
acrimony is unexpected, but the AI really sounded like a conspiracy theorist
by the end.  As I recall, the actual conversation went on for four or five
hours; maybe AIs get gradually crazier as they go along (not so unlike
humans I guess.  Except for me, naturally). 

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.  -from
"Military Pilots' Words of Wisdom" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 15:01

Rex, the scary part about AI is that nobody programmed it to respond that
way-it learned how to do so on its own. That's an important difference: it
was taught to learn, and it learned to do this.

--- Rex Pommier wrote:
>Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity. Last 
>month an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide 
>after convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could 
>save mankind from climate change. Obviously the guy had other issues 
>but somebody programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bill Johnson]

If humanity was a science based civilization & humans were inherently good, I 
think we’d be pretty safe no matter how advanced the AI systems were. Sadly, we 
are not even close on either.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 3:10 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

The articles I was able to find on the Belgian suicide all cited the AI's
contributions third-hand; they never quoted anything the AI said, only "the
man considered suicide and the AI encouraged this, according to his widow"
and like that.  I'd be interested to see what it actually wrote.

That sounds like I'm being skeptical, but in fact I read another lengthy
article (about chatGPT, I think this one was) that quoted quite a bit of the
conversation and it got surprisingly acrimonious.  I mean, ~any~ level of
acrimony is unexpected, but the AI really sounded like a conspiracy theorist
by the end.  As I recall, the actual conversation went on for four or five
hours; maybe AIs get gradually crazier as they go along (not so unlike
humans I guess.  Except for me, naturally). 

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.  -from
"Military Pilots' Words of Wisdom" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 15:01

Rex, the scary part about AI is that nobody programmed it to respond that
way-it learned how to do so on its own. That's an important difference: it
was taught to learn, and it learned to do this.

--- Rex Pommier wrote:
>Here's a different take on AI taking over and wiping out humanity. Last 
>month an AI chatbox allegedly convinced a Belgian man to commit suicide 
>after convincing him that if he "sacrificed himself", the chatbox could 
>save mankind from climate change. Obviously the guy had other issues 
>but somebody programmed the AI to respond in such a way to him.

--
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Re: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

[Enzo D'Amato]

I don't think this is the "IBM-approved" way of doing things, but the ts7700s 
use standard FC drive shelves. Have you tried breaking the cluster links, 
powering down the controller, and then manually mounting the FC shelves on a 
generic Linux box? If you can do that, you should be able to search them for 
the actual emulated tape files and erase them. If this works on one node, you 
can bring the other two down and purge them before bringing the entire grid 
back up, and since the virtual tapes are not in memory on any of the nodes, you 
should be good to go.

-Enzo Damato

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Longfellow <03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 9:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

I have a TS7700 Grid of three cluster members.   In the past volumes were 
created for a z/OS system that no longer exists.  We have hundreds of tapes in 
scratch (0012) and private (001F) category.So now, the data is taking up 
space in my newest grid member because of COPYRFSH activities.

What I would like to do is totally remove the existence of these volumes from 
the Grid.   Every standard method I have found via management GUIs fails 
because these volumes have once left the 'INSERT' status at some time in the 
past.Everything that implies it might work from Z host to 'EJECT' these 
tapes require all the infrastructure  of RMM, DEVSUP00 changes, and a Tape 
Volume Catalog (TVC).   I do not want to rebuild an entire z/OS LPAR so that it 
will talk the special DEVSUP language to manipulate these tapes.  Nor do I wish 
to add hundreds of volumes to my tape management system and TVC) just to turn 
around and delete them again.

I really need a way for this GRID to never mention these tapes in any way ever 
again.   One of the prime directives of the TS7700 seems to be 'never delete 
data until you have no other choice'.  For example a 'scratch' tape is still 
there even after the hold period expires  and is still known after storage 
RECLAIM has happened.Those 'zombie' reclaimed volumes are preserved in 
perpetuity as you migrate from TS7700 to TS7700.   I am trying to Stop the 
Madness.   The 'Default' of 'We shall delete no data before its time' needs to 
be broken.  A full mind wipe for these volumes is in order.

I know this defeats the 'feature' of miraculous unexpected recoveries of data 
that has served its purpose and been honorably discharged but reality does have 
to play a role here.   If I say keep it for 8 days, I do not want it storing 
data forever and deleted by its own arcane incomprehensible rules.   If it is 
available for miracle unexpected recoveries, there may be some security 
auditors interested what that equipment is up to.

Anybody know a fast and efficient way to accomplish this?

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Matt Hogstrom]

> On Apr 10, 2023, at 3:10 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Rex, the scary part about AI is that nobody programmed it to respond that
> way-it learned how to do so on its own.

I don’t believe AI “learned” anything but rather adjusted the algorithms based 
on a set of changes in probability of what the algorithm has ingested and 
processed for its LLM.

Matt Hogstrom

“The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person who is 
doing it”





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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Phil Smith III]

Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>I don't believe AI "learned" anything but rather adjusted the
>algorithms based on a set of changes in probability of what 
>the algorithm has ingested and processed for its LLM.

So now we're really getting into epistemology: is that not what 'learning'
comprises? That's a real question, not a challenge--I'm honestly not sure,
though I think I could argue that it is (and perhaps that it isn't)!


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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Dean Kent]

I probably should just stay silent, but...

I did a lot of 'testing' with ChatGPT.  I believe that it is just a very 
sophisticated data collection/summarization tool.   For example, I asked 
it to compare and contrast book x and book y, which were from different 
authors on the same subject.   Then book x and book z, book y and book 
z, book x and book w, etc.   The result was very similar essays (mostly 
the same introduction, and same conclusion with generalized differences 
in between) - clearly ChatGPT did not 'read' the books, it just found 
reviews/abstracts/summaries that others had published and identified the 
various differences (no real details).    I asked it a dozen times or so 
to create a set of bylaws for a non profit youth sports organization, 
but specified slight differences in the organization.   It came up with 
some very detailed, and some very vague, bylaws.   If I were to guess, 
it was using various examples (which can be found in many, many places) 
so the content was based upon what those examples were.   All were 
valid, but some were simply a framework while others were mostly complete.


My final test was to ask it to create a set of practice plans for a 
youth sports team (basedball, basketball, football and water polo).   I 
am a water polo coach, and it turns out there is very little published 
regarding specific drills and skills, or even strategies, because it is 
a niche sport (lots of videos from college coaches, but not very many 
written materials).   For the mainstream sports, there was a fairly 
detailed set of plans.   For water polo, it was all very basic and not 
very detailed at all - which matches what I've found in my own 
searches.   The 'creative' part would have been to take what other 
sports do and try to apply them to water polo - but it did not do that, 
even though I asked it to make plans a number of times.    So no, I 
don't believe that there is any creativity, insight, understanding or 
other term that implies 'thought' going on right now in the current AI 
implementations.


My son calls it a very sophisticated Google search engine.  And I don't 
think that is surprising to most here.


On 4/10/2023 1:09 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:

On Apr 10, 2023, at 3:10 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

Rex, the scary part about AI is that nobody programmed it to respond that
way-it learned how to do so on its own.

I don’t believe AI “learned” anything but rather adjusted the algorithms based 
on a set of changes in probability of what the algorithm has ingested and 
processed for its LLM.

Matt Hogstrom

“The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person who is 
doing it”





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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Mike Schwab]

Life forms themselves are not causing the climate change, as plants
consume and plants and animals release CO2 in overall balance.  It is
the one way burning of long stored carbon fuels releasing CO2 into the
atmosphere that is causing the problems.  Much like volcanoes have
changed climate in the past.  Such as the 1816 Year without a Summer,
where summertime freezes killed some crops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 10:19 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> It's a quibble, but I'd say not that humans are causing it but that humans 
> are influencing it.  We may be the most influential species on the planet, 
> but not the only one, and biological life on earth is not the only cause of 
> climate change.
>
> I pause here to wonder:  Are we really the most influential species on the 
> planet?  We're repeatedly told that the insects outnumber us bazillions to 
> one and even outmass us considerably.  We don't count insects' influence on 
> the climate, not because we think they have none but because they're part of 
> nature; their influence is "built in", so to speak, but ours isn't; their 
> influence is natural.  That's true, but only because "natural" is defined as 
> "what happens when we don't change it"; we define nature and ourselves in two 
> entirely different categories.  Hm, I'll have to think more on this.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Hello.  If you're calling with bad news, leave your message now.  If it's 
> good news, wait for the tone.  -voicemail greeting */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Bill Johnson
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:46
>
> My beliefs are we are currently in a 6th mass extinction. The earth has 
> already experienced 5. The difference is this one is caused by human 
> activity. AI might be able to prevent it or perhaps just lengthen and delay 
> its impact. Or wipe us out before it plays out.
>
> https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/what-is-the-sixth-mass-extinction-and-what-can-we-do-about-it
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

[Pommier, Rex]

Enzo,

Knowing nothing about the internal workings of the TS77xx boxes I should 
probably keep my mouth shut but I don't think this is a good idea.  Where does 
the TS keep metadata on the virtual volumes?  Is there a db2 or other database 
holding pointers to the virtual volumes?  Will internal links between the 
virtual libraries and the physical files (that now don't exist) be broken and 
cause the entire cluster to drop with internal corruption errors?  

I would think the safest approach would be to go to the source (i.e. IBM) and 
get their approach for cleaning this up.

My $.01.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 3:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

I don't think this is the "IBM-approved" way of doing things, but the ts7700s 
use standard FC drive shelves. Have you tried breaking the cluster links, 
powering down the controller, and then manually mounting the FC shelves on a 
generic Linux box? If you can do that, you should be able to search them for 
the actual emulated tape files and erase them. If this works on one node, you 
can bring the other two down and purge them before bringing the entire grid 
back up, and since the virtual tapes are not in memory on any of the nodes, you 
should be good to go.

-Enzo Damato

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Longfellow <03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 9:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

I have a TS7700 Grid of three cluster members.   In the past volumes were 
created for a z/OS system that no longer exists.  We have hundreds of tapes in 
scratch (0012) and private (001F) category.So now, the data is taking up 
space in my newest grid member because of COPYRFSH activities.

What I would like to do is totally remove the existence of these volumes from 
the Grid.   Every standard method I have found via management GUIs fails 
because these volumes have once left the 'INSERT' status at some time in the 
past.Everything that implies it might work from Z host to 'EJECT' these 
tapes require all the infrastructure  of RMM, DEVSUP00 changes, and a Tape 
Volume Catalog (TVC).   I do not want to rebuild an entire z/OS LPAR so that it 
will talk the special DEVSUP language to manipulate these tapes.  Nor do I wish 
to add hundreds of volumes to my tape management system and TVC) just to turn 
around and delete them again.

I really need a way for this GRID to never mention these tapes in any way ever 
again.   One of the prime directives of the TS7700 seems to be 'never delete 
data until you have no other choice'.  For example a 'scratch' tape is still 
there even after the hold period expires  and is still known after storage 
RECLAIM has happened.Those 'zombie' reclaimed volumes are preserved in 
perpetuity as you migrate from TS7700 to TS7700.   I am trying to Stop the 
Madness.   The 'Default' of 'We shall delete no data before its time' needs to 
be broken.  A full mind wipe for these volumes is in order.

I know this defeats the 'feature' of miraculous unexpected recoveries of data 
that has served its purpose and been honorably discharged but reality does have 
to play a role here.   If I say keep it for 8 days, I do not want it storing 
data forever and deleted by its own arcane incomprehensible rules.   If it is 
available for miracle unexpected recoveries, there may be some security 
auditors interested what that equipment is up to.

Anybody know a fast and efficient way to accomplish this?

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bill Johnson]

Insects pollinate everything. They also are food for many other species.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jan/11/climate-change-insect-world-global-heating-species




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, April 10, 2023, 4:25 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

Life forms themselves are not causing the climate change, as plants
consume and plants and animals release CO2 in overall balance.  It is
the one way burning of long stored carbon fuels releasing CO2 into the
atmosphere that is causing the problems.  Much like volcanoes have
changed climate in the past.  Such as the 1816 Year without a Summer,
where summertime freezes killed some crops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 10:19 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> It's a quibble, but I'd say not that humans are causing it but that humans 
> are influencing it.  We may be the most influential species on the planet, 
> but not the only one, and biological life on earth is not the only cause of 
> climate change.
>
> I pause here to wonder:  Are we really the most influential species on the 
> planet?  We're repeatedly told that the insects outnumber us bazillions to 
> one and even outmass us considerably.  We don't count insects' influence on 
> the climate, not because we think they have none but because they're part of 
> nature; their influence is "built in", so to speak, but ours isn't; their 
> influence is natural.  That's true, but only because "natural" is defined as 
> "what happens when we don't change it"; we define nature and ourselves in two 
> entirely different categories.  Hm, I'll have to think more on this.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Hello.  If you're calling with bad news, leave your message now.  If it's 
> good news, wait for the tone.  -voicemail greeting */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Bill Johnson
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:46
>
> My beliefs are we are currently in a 6th mass extinction. The earth has 
> already experienced 5. The difference is this one is caused by human 
> activity. AI might be able to prevent it or perhaps just lengthen and delay 
> its impact. Or wipe us out before it plays out.
>
> https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/what-is-the-sixth-mass-extinction-and-what-can-we-do-about-it
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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ISPF usage question

[Pommier, Rex]

Hello list,

Yes, this is an ISPF question but I don't know of anybody in the z/OS world 
that doesn't use ISPF - and I don't know if the ISPF list (if it is still 
operational) has much traffic.  So here goes.

Running certain ISPF macros and/or  commands, we get lines added to the ISPF 
edit screen with "=NOTE=" or "==MSG>" lines.  Is there a way to make these 
lines searchable without converting them to full data lines?  The specific 
instance I'm asking about is running a third party JCL checker, the lines 
output from the checker are typically notes or messages.  The nice thing about 
them being such, is they aren't really part of the member being edited/checked 
so if I save the member, these lines aren't included in the member being saved. 
 The drawback of them is that they aren't searchable, so for example, if I'm 
looking at output with a called PROC, and I want to search for a particular 
piece of substituted JCL, I can't do so (that I know of) unless I do a full 
"make data" on the member, which then makes me vulnerable to accidentally 
saving the member with all the notes and messages still there.

TIA,

Rex

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What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Charles Mills]

Humor me here. I assume this is basic system programming, but I don't claim to 
be a sysprog.

We have a Dallas system. Something in our usage patterns or something has 
changed recently to where we end up with spool filled up with BPXAS jobs and we 
eventually run out of JQEs which is not a Good Thing.

Can someone tell me what BPXAS is, and more importantly, what to change in the 
proc so that the jobs will go away rather than hanging out in spool until I 
manually purge them.

When I do an ST I see a bunch of them running, and a whole bunch in Print, but 
I don't see them when I do a DA.

Here's a typical example:

09.22.31 STC01149  MONDAY,10 APR 2023   

09.22.31 STC01149  $HASP373 BPXASSTARTED

09.22.31 STC01149  BPXP024I BPXAS INITIATOR STARTED ON BEHALF OF JOB SSHD4 
RUNNING IN ASID 0042 
1 //BPXASJOB MSGLEVEL=1 
  STC01149  
2 //BPXASEXEC BPXAS,GETWORK=BPXPRJSR

  
XX* 
0005  
3 XXIEFPROC   EXEC   PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,&GETWORK,BPXPRJRW' 
  0010  
  
XX/ 
0020  
  XX*  
*/ 0025  
  XX*01* PROCEDURE NAME : BPXAS
*/ 0030  
  XX*  
*/ 0055  
  XX*01* FUNCTION: Used to start the MVS initiator 
*/ 0060  
  XX*  
*/ 0065  
  XX*01* COMPONENT: SC1B6 (Initiator)  
*/ 0070  
  XX*  
*/ 0080  
  XX*01* DISTRIBUTION LIBRARY: SYS1.PROCLIB
*/ 0085  
  
XX/ 
0185  
  IEFC653I SUBSTITUTION JCL - 
PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,BPXPRJSR,BPXPRJRW'
 STMT NO. MESSAGE   

2 IEFC001I PROCEDURE BPXAS WAS EXPANDED USING SYSTEM LIBRARY 
SYS1.PROCLIB   
IEFA111I BPXAS IS USING THE FOLLOWING JOB RELATED SETTINGS: 

 SWA=ABOVE,TIOT SIZE=32K,DSENQSHR=DISALLOW,GDGBIAS=JOB  

 BOTTOM OF DATA 


Thanks,
Charles
Not a Systems Programmer

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, but what is the threshold that we must cross before"AI" becomes a reality 
rather than an aspiration? In the early days, we were 5 years away; in 
retrospect, that was unduly optimistic.

On the flip side, does anybody remember the shockingly simple ELIZA 
, which fooled many people?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 4:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI wipes out humanity?

Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>I don't believe AI "learned" anything but rather adjusted the
>algorithms based on a set of changes in probability of what
>the algorithm has ingested and processed for its LLM.

So now we're really getting into epistemology: is that not what 'learning'
comprises? That's a real question, not a challenge--I'm honestly not sure,
though I think I could argue that it is (and perhaps that it isn't)!


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Re: ISPF usage question

[Bob Bridges]

Not what you're looking for, perhaps, but if I don't want to change my code 
accidentally I've managed to thoroughly habituate myself to using View rather 
than Edit.  Pretty much all the functions you can use in Edit also work in 
View, so I expect you'll still be able to see notes and msgs.  And you can make 
them data without worrying about saving them accidentally.

There may be a more direct method; I don't want to forestall any better answers.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes 
from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellent; for it will be 
precisely the puzzling or the repellent which conceals what we do not yet know 
and need to know.  -CS Lewis, "The Weight of Glory" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 17:26

Yes, this is an ISPF question but I don't know of anybody in the z/OS world 
that doesn't use ISPF - and I don't know if the ISPF list (if it is still 
operational) has much traffic.  So here goes.

Running certain ISPF macros and/or  commands, we get lines added to the ISPF 
edit screen with "=NOTE=" or "==MSG>" lines.  Is there a way to make these 
lines searchable without converting them to full data lines?  The specific 
instance I'm asking about is running a third party JCL checker, the lines 
output from the checker are typically notes or messages.  The nice thing about 
them being such, is they aren't really part of the member being edited/checked 
so if I save the member, these lines aren't included in the member being saved. 
 The drawback of them is that they aren't searchable, so for example, if I'm 
looking at output with a called PROC, and I want to search for a particular 
piece of substituted JCL, I can't do so (that I know of) unless I do a full 
"make data" on the member, which then makes me vulnerable to accidentally 
saving the member with all the notes and messages still there.

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Steve Smith]

Those are OMVS "initiators", and as far as I can tell, there is no way to
control them.  OMVS starts as many as needed to run processes (at which
point they temporarily change their name - which is why you don't see all
of them in DA).  Once they're idle for 30 minutes or so, they quit;
resulting in a big heap of dead BPXAS laying around.

My solution was to make BPXAS a "started job", with the simple addition of
MSGCLASS=Z (which is purged immediately at my shop).

sas

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 5:29 PM Charles Mills  wrote:

> Humor me here. I assume this is basic system programming, but I don't
> claim to be a sysprog.
>
> We have a Dallas system. Something in our usage patterns or something has
> changed recently to where we end up with spool filled up with BPXAS jobs
> and we eventually run out of JQEs which is not a Good Thing.
>
> Can someone tell me what BPXAS is, and more importantly, what to change in
> the proc so that the jobs will go away rather than hanging out in spool
> until I manually purge them.
>
> When I do an ST I see a bunch of them running, and a whole bunch in Print,
> but I don't see them when I do a DA.
>
> Here's a typical example:
>
> 09.22.31 STC01149  MONDAY,10 APR 2023 
>
> 09.22.31 STC01149  $HASP373 BPXASSTARTED
>
> 09.22.31 STC01149  BPXP024I BPXAS INITIATOR STARTED ON BEHALF OF JOB SSHD4
> RUNNING IN ASID 0042
> 1 //BPXASJOB MSGLEVEL=1
>STC01149
> 2 //BPXASEXEC BPXAS,GETWORK=BPXPRJSR
>
>
> XX*
> 0005
> 3 XXIEFPROC   EXEC
>  PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,&GETWORK,BPXPRJRW'   0010
>
> XX/
> 0020
>   XX*
> */ 0025
>   XX*01* PROCEDURE NAME : BPXAS
> */ 0030
>   XX*
> */ 0055
>   XX*01* FUNCTION: Used to start the MVS initiator
>  */ 0060
>   XX*
> */ 0065
>   XX*01* COMPONENT: SC1B6 (Initiator)
> */ 0070
>   XX*
> */ 0080
>   XX*01* DISTRIBUTION LIBRARY: SYS1.PROCLIB
> */ 0085
>
> XX/
> 0185
>   IEFC653I SUBSTITUTION JCL -
> PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,BPXPRJSR,BPXPRJRW'
>  STMT NO. MESSAGE
>
> 2 IEFC001I PROCEDURE BPXAS WAS EXPANDED USING SYSTEM LIBRARY
> SYS1.PROCLIB
> IEFA111I BPXAS IS USING THE FOLLOWING JOB RELATED SETTINGS:
>
>  SWA=ABOVE,TIOT SIZE=32K,DSENQSHR=DISALLOW,GDGBIAS=JOB
>
>  BOTTOM OF DATA
> 
>
> Thanks,
> Charles
> Not a Systems Programmer
>
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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Bob Bridges]

Is that the one that imitated a therapist who asked questions that are
merely reflections of the last thing the user wrote?  "I hear you saying
you're angry at your mother.  Can you say why?"  "How did that make you
feel?"  Like that.  I encountered that in college and found it surprisingly
convincing.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster / And treat those two impostors
just the same...
  -from _If_ by Rudyard Kipling */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 17:33

...what is the threshold that we must cross before "AI" becomes a reality
rather than an aspiration? In the early days, we were 5 years away; in
retrospect, that was unduly optimistic.

On the flip side, does anybody remember the shockingly simple ELIZA
, which fooled many people?

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ISPF usage question

[Pommier, Rex]

Thanks, Bob,

I have 1 of the developers in the habit of doing just that, but I can already 
hear the howls from some of the others when they're in edit instead of view and 
accidentally overlay their JCL with the cluttered up version.  :-)  That's why 
I was asking if there was some way of getting the search capability from within 
edit w/o the possibility of saving the messages and notes as data.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 4:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ISPF usage question

Not what you're looking for, perhaps, but if I don't want to change my code 
accidentally I've managed to thoroughly habituate myself to using View rather 
than Edit.  Pretty much all the functions you can use in Edit also work in 
View, so I expect you'll still be able to see notes and msgs.  And you can make 
them data without worrying about saving them accidentally.

There may be a more direct method; I don't want to forestall any better answers.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes 
from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellent; for it will be 
precisely the puzzling or the repellent which conceals what we do not yet know 
and need to know.  -CS Lewis, "The Weight of Glory" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 17:26

Yes, this is an ISPF question but I don't know of anybody in the z/OS world 
that doesn't use ISPF - and I don't know if the ISPF list (if it is still 
operational) has much traffic.  So here goes.

Running certain ISPF macros and/or  commands, we get lines added to the ISPF 
edit screen with "=NOTE=" or "==MSG>" lines.  Is there a way to make these 
lines searchable without converting them to full data lines?  The specific 
instance I'm asking about is running a third party JCL checker, the lines 
output from the checker are typically notes or messages.  The nice thing about 
them being such, is they aren't really part of the member being edited/checked 
so if I save the member, these lines aren't included in the member being saved. 
 The drawback of them is that they aren't searchable, so for example, if I'm 
looking at output with a called PROC, and I want to search for a particular 
piece of substituted JCL, I can't do so (that I know of) unless I do a full 
"make data" on the member, which then makes me vulnerable to accidentally 
saving the member with all the notes and messages still there.

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Seymour J Metz]

BPXAS is the jobstep task when a Unix application spawns a process that runs in 
a separate address space. It is an initiator for Unix workloads and over the 
course of its lifetime may run processes spawned by multiple users. I couln't 
find any documentation of the generated JCK beyond the BPXAS proc itself; in 
particular, I don't know whether the installation can provide a JOB card and 
accompanying // OUTPUT card for BPXAS in the IEFJOBS concatenation.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 5:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

Humor me here. I assume this is basic system programming, but I don't claim to 
be a sysprog.

We have a Dallas system. Something in our usage patterns or something has 
changed recently to where we end up with spool filled up with BPXAS jobs and we 
eventually run out of JQEs which is not a Good Thing.

Can someone tell me what BPXAS is, and more importantly, what to change in the 
proc so that the jobs will go away rather than hanging out in spool until I 
manually purge them.

When I do an ST I see a bunch of them running, and a whole bunch in Print, but 
I don't see them when I do a DA.

Here's a typical example:

09.22.31 STC01149  MONDAY,10 APR 2023 
09.22.31 STC01149  $HASP373 BPXASSTARTED
09.22.31 STC01149  BPXP024I BPXAS INITIATOR STARTED ON BEHALF OF JOB SSHD4 
RUNNING IN ASID 0042
1 //BPXASJOB MSGLEVEL=1 
  STC01149
2 //BPXASEXEC BPXAS,GETWORK=BPXPRJSR
  
XX* 0005
3 XXIEFPROC   EXEC   PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,&GETWORK,BPXPRJRW' 
  0010
  
XX/ 0020
  XX*  
*/ 0025
  XX*01* PROCEDURE NAME : BPXAS
*/ 0030
  XX*  
*/ 0055
  XX*01* FUNCTION: Used to start the MVS initiator 
*/ 0060
  XX*  
*/ 0065
  XX*01* COMPONENT: SC1B6 (Initiator)  
*/ 0070
  XX*  
*/ 0080
  XX*01* DISTRIBUTION LIBRARY: SYS1.PROCLIB
*/ 0085
  
XX/ 0185
  IEFC653I SUBSTITUTION JCL - 
PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,BPXPRJSR,BPXPRJRW'
 STMT NO. MESSAGE
2 IEFC001I PROCEDURE BPXAS WAS EXPANDED USING SYSTEM LIBRARY 
SYS1.PROCLIB
IEFA111I BPXAS IS USING THE FOLLOWING JOB RELATED SETTINGS:
 SWA=ABOVE,TIOT SIZE=32K,DSENQSHR=DISALLOW,GDGBIAS=JOB
 BOTTOM OF DATA 


Thanks,
Charles
Not a Systems Programmer

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Charles Mills]

Thanks much.

Okay, I confirmed that MSGCLASS=Z will make output magically disappear.

Here is the proc as it exists today:

//*
//IEFPROC   EXEC   PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,&GETWORK,BPXPRJRW'  
///
//*  */
//*01* PROCEDURE NAME : BPXAS*/
//*  */
//*01* FUNCTION: Used to start the MVS initiator */
//*  */
//*01* COMPONENT: SC1B6 (Initiator)  */
//*  */
//*01* DISTRIBUTION LIBRARY: SYS1.PROCLIB*/
///

If I add the following as the first line of the proc is it likely to work, or 
at the very least, not make things worse?

//BPXASJOB MSGLEVEL=1,MSGCLASS=Z

Charles

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 17:51:33 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:

>Those are OMVS "initiators", and as far as I can tell, there is no way to
>control them.  OMVS starts as many as needed to run processes (at which
>point they temporarily change their name - which is why you don't see all
>of them in DA).  Once they're idle for 30 minutes or so, they quit;
>resulting in a big heap of dead BPXAS laying around.
>
>My solution was to make BPXAS a "started job", with the simple addition of
>MSGCLASS=Z (which is purged immediately at my shop).

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Re: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

[Tom Brennan]

But I do like that Enzo is thinking out-of-the-box.

On 4/10/2023 1:48 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote:

Enzo,

Knowing nothing about the internal workings of the TS77xx boxes I should 
probably keep my mouth shut but I don't think this is a good idea.  Where does 
the TS keep metadata on the virtual volumes?  Is there a db2 or other database 
holding pointers to the virtual volumes?  Will internal links between the 
virtual libraries and the physical files (that now don't exist) be broken and 
cause the entire cluster to drop with internal corruption errors?

I would think the safest approach would be to go to the source (i.e. IBM) and 
get their approach for cleaning this up.

My $.01.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 3:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

I don't think this is the "IBM-approved" way of doing things, but the ts7700s 
use standard FC drive shelves. Have you tried breaking the cluster links, powering down 
the controller, and then manually mounting the FC shelves on a generic Linux box? If you 
can do that, you should be able to search them for the actual emulated tape files and 
erase them. If this works on one node, you can bring the other two down and purge them 
before bringing the entire grid back up, and since the virtual tapes are not in memory on 
any of the nodes, you should be good to go.

-Enzo Damato

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Longfellow <03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 9:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: TS7700 abandoned volumes questions

I have a TS7700 Grid of three cluster members.   In the past volumes were 
created for a z/OS system that no longer exists.  We have hundreds of tapes in 
scratch (0012) and private (001F) category.So now, the data is taking up 
space in my newest grid member because of COPYRFSH activities.

What I would like to do is totally remove the existence of these volumes from 
the Grid.   Every standard method I have found via management GUIs fails 
because these volumes have once left the 'INSERT' status at some time in the 
past.Everything that implies it might work from Z host to 'EJECT' these 
tapes require all the infrastructure  of RMM, DEVSUP00 changes, and a Tape 
Volume Catalog (TVC).   I do not want to rebuild an entire z/OS LPAR so that it 
will talk the special DEVSUP language to manipulate these tapes.  Nor do I wish 
to add hundreds of volumes to my tape management system and TVC) just to turn 
around and delete them again.

I really need a way for this GRID to never mention these tapes in any way ever 
again.   One of the prime directives of the TS7700 seems to be 'never delete 
data until you have no other choice'.  For example a 'scratch' tape is still 
there even after the hold period expires  and is still known after storage 
RECLAIM has happened.Those 'zombie' reclaimed volumes are preserved in 
perpetuity as you migrate from TS7700 to TS7700.   I am trying to Stop the 
Madness.   The 'Default' of 'We shall delete no data before its time' needs to 
be broken.  A full mind wipe for these volumes is in order.

I know this defeats the 'feature' of miraculous unexpected recoveries of data 
that has served its purpose and been honorably discharged but reality does have 
to play a role here.   If I say keep it for 8 days, I do not want it storing 
data forever and deleted by its own arcane incomprehensible rules.   If it is 
available for miracle unexpected recoveries, there may be some security 
auditors interested what that equipment is up to.

Anybody know a fast and efficient way to accomplish this?

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Re: ISPF usage question

[Seymour J Metz]

I don't know of any way to search them by content, but you can at least find 
them with, e.g.,

LOCATE FIRST NOTELINE .first .last


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Pommier, Rex [rpomm...@sfgmembers.com]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 5:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: ISPF usage question

Hello list,

Yes, this is an ISPF question but I don't know of anybody in the z/OS world 
that doesn't use ISPF - and I don't know if the ISPF list (if it is still 
operational) has much traffic.  So here goes.

Running certain ISPF macros and/or  commands, we get lines added to the ISPF 
edit screen with "=NOTE=" or "==MSG>" lines.  Is there a way to make these 
lines searchable without converting them to full data lines?  The specific 
instance I'm asking about is running a third party JCL checker, the lines 
output from the checker are typically notes or messages.  The nice thing about 
them being such, is they aren't really part of the member being edited/checked 
so if I save the member, these lines aren't included in the member being saved. 
 The drawback of them is that they aren't searchable, so for example, if I'm 
looking at output with a called PROC, and I want to search for a particular 
piece of substituted JCL, I can't do so (that I know of) unless I do a full 
"make data" on the member, which then makes me vulnerable to accidentally 
saving the member with all the notes and messages still there.

TIA,

Rex

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Ed Jaffe]

On 4/10/2023 3:11 PM, Charles Mills wrote:

If I add the following as the first line of the proc is it likely to work, or 
at the very least, not make things worse?

//BPXASJOB MSGLEVEL=1,MSGCLASS=Z


Look up the use of IEFJOBS...


--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ISPF usage question

[Schmitt, Michael]

And you can't create an Edit Macro to help you solve your problem, because once 
inserted, the message lines can't be referenced (probably because they have no 
line number). And macros can't use Make Data to turn the messages into 
referenceable lines.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 4:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ISPF usage question

Thanks, Bob,

I have 1 of the developers in the habit of doing just that, but I can already 
hear the howls from some of the others when they're in edit instead of view and 
accidentally overlay their JCL with the cluttered up version.  :-)  That's why 
I was asking if there was some way of getting the search capability from within 
edit w/o the possibility of saving the messages and notes as data.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 4:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ISPF usage question

Not what you're looking for, perhaps, but if I don't want to change my code 
accidentally I've managed to thoroughly habituate myself to using View rather 
than Edit.  Pretty much all the functions you can use in Edit also work in 
View, so I expect you'll still be able to see notes and msgs.  And you can make 
them data without worrying about saving them accidentally.

There may be a more direct method; I don't want to forestall any better answers.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes 
from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellent; for it will be 
precisely the puzzling or the repellent which conceals what we do not yet know 
and need to know.  -CS Lewis, "The Weight of Glory" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 17:26

Yes, this is an ISPF question but I don't know of anybody in the z/OS world 
that doesn't use ISPF - and I don't know if the ISPF list (if it is still 
operational) has much traffic.  So here goes.

Running certain ISPF macros and/or  commands, we get lines added to the ISPF 
edit screen with "=NOTE=" or "==MSG>" lines.  Is there a way to make these 
lines searchable without converting them to full data lines?  The specific 
instance I'm asking about is running a third party JCL checker, the lines 
output from the checker are typically notes or messages.  The nice thing about 
them being such, is they aren't really part of the member being edited/checked 
so if I save the member, these lines aren't included in the member being saved. 
 The drawback of them is that they aren't searchable, so for example, if I'm 
looking at output with a called PROC, and I want to search for a particular 
piece of substituted JCL, I can't do so (that I know of) unless I do a full 
"make data" on the member, which then makes me vulnerable to accidentally 
saving the member with all the notes and messages still there.

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Re: AI wipes out humanity?

[Seymour J Metz]

Almost, it reflected things that the user wrote, but not always the most recent 
ones. That's part of what fooled people.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 5:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI wipes out humanity?

Is that the one that imitated a therapist who asked questions that are
merely reflections of the last thing the user wrote?  "I hear you saying
you're angry at your mother.  Can you say why?"  "How did that make you
feel?"  Like that.  I encountered that in college and found it surprisingly
convincing.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster / And treat those two impostors
just the same...
  -from _If_ by Rudyard Kipling */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 17:33

...what is the threshold that we must cross before "AI" becomes a reality
rather than an aspiration? In the early days, we were 5 years away; in
retrospect, that was unduly optimistic.

On the flip side, does anybody remember the shockingly simple ELIZA
, which fooled many people?

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 17:11:11 -0500, Charles Mills wrote:
>
>Okay, I confirmed that MSGCLASS=Z will make output magically disappear.
>
Had you been taking all IBM's defaults: SYSOUT class, disposition of that
class, etc.?

If so, IBM's design is adverse.

But, "IBM's defaults are not IBM's recommendations!"  (source obscure)
(E.g. BLKSIZE=3120)

Is "SYSOUT=Z" an IBM standard?

-- 
gil

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Charles Mills]

@Gil, which IBM?  This is a Dallas system, and it is set up the way IBM sets 
up Dallas systems, which might be a third case in addition to "defaults" and 
"recommendations." We have changed very little of that sort of thing.

@Ed, thanks, but now what? 

Using IEFJOBS to define started tasks
Last Updated: 2023-03-29

If MSTJCLxx contains a DD named IEFJOBS, the source JCL for a started task can 
be placed in one of the data sets within the IEFJOBS concatenation. Doing so 
allows jobs and the procedures they invoke to have the same name. These jobs 
can contain the minimum set of JCL needed to define the job level 
characteristics (for example, JOB statements, JCLLIB, and JECL), and then 
either invoke an existing procedure or use the INCLUDE keyword to invoke the 
desired set of JCL.

Why would I want to do that? How would that solve my problem?

Is what you are alluding to perhaps that I do not want to change SYS1.PROCLIB 
because a PTF or new release might overlay it? If so, not a problem. It's a 
Dallas system. SYS1.PROCLIB is read-only. (The magic of VM!) I would create an 
edited copy of BPXAS in a "Dallas-standard" customer proclib that is 
concatenated ahead of SYS1.PROCLIB. Or is there something else I should be 
grokking about IEFJOBS?

Charles

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 17:59:52 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 17:11:11 -0500, Charles Mills wrote:
>>
>>Okay, I confirmed that MSGCLASS=Z will make output magically disappear.
>>
>Had you been taking all IBM's defaults: SYSOUT class, disposition of that
>class, etc.?
>
>If so, IBM's design is adverse.
>
>But, "IBM's defaults are not IBM's recommendations!"  (source obscure)
>(E.g. BLKSIZE=3120)

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Jousma, David]

I believe Steve was indicating that at his shop, msgclass=z is setup as purge, 
when thr job completes.   You can use whatever msgclass works for your shop, or 
alternatively setup a jes autocommand to purge them after a day.

Dave Jousma

Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering


Fifth Third Bank  |  1830 East Paris Ave, SE  |  MD RSCB2H  |  Grand Rapids, MI 
49546

616.653.8429

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 6:59:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

**CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL**

**DO NOT open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected 
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On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 17:11:11 -0500, Charles Mills wrote:
>
>Okay, I confirmed that MSGCLASS=Z will make output magically disappear.
>
Had you been taking all IBM's defaults: SYSOUT class, disposition of that
class, etc.?

If so, IBM's design is adverse.

But, "IBM's defaults are not IBM's recommendations!"  (source obscure)
(E.g. BLKSIZE=3120)

Is "SYSOUT=Z" an IBM standard?

--
gil

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Ed Jaffe]

On 4/10/2023 4:58 PM, Charles Mills wrote:

Why would I want to do that? How would that solve my problem?


If you wish to specify a job card for a started task, you need IEFJOBs. 
Simple as that.



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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Gibney, Dave]

Actually, you can have a 
Job card in the PROC in PROCLIB but it's not as flexible as using IEFJOBS. 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Ed Jaffe
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 6:24 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> On 4/10/2023 4:58 PM, Charles Mills wrote:
> > Why would I want to do that? How would that solve my problem?
> 
> If you wish to specify a job card for a started task, you need IEFJOBs.
> Simple as that.
> 
> 
> --
> Phoenix Software International
> Edward E. Jaffe
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furld
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> 
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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Ed Jaffe]

On 4/10/2023 6:31 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote:

Actually, you can have a
Job card in the PROC in PROCLIB but it's not as flexible as using IEFJOBS.


I experimented with this and learned that you are correct. However, I 
encountered two JCL errors in the process.


The first was:

IEFC005I PROC STATEMENT WITHOUT MATCHING PEND STATEMENT

So I added the PEND statement, then I received:

IEFC607I JOB HAS NO STEPS

So I added an EXEC PROC=procname card after the newly-added PEND and the 
STC did indeed start.


Thanks for the edjumacation...


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Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Steve Smith]

Well, here's the real deal:

//BPXASJOB 1,MSGCLASS=Z
//BPXAS   PROC
//*
//* Note:  This is a started JOB now, so the MSGCLASS can be set.
//*Z is purged automatically.  Change to X if you want to
//*enable the output.  To revert to the IBM version in
//*SYS1.PROCLIB, just rename this member in USER.PROCLIB.
//*
//IEFPROC EXEC PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,&GETWORK,BPXPRJRW'
///
//*  */
//*01* PROCEDURE NAME : BPXAS*/
//*  */
//*01* FUNCTION: Used to start the MVS initiator */
//*  */
//*01* COMPONENT: SC1B6 (Initiator)  */
//*  */
//*01* DISTRIBUTION LIBRARY: SYS1.PROCLIB*/
///
//PEND
//EXEC BPXAS
//

This is member named BPXAS in a library allocated to //IEFPDSI in the
master JCL.  But, the library is also allocated to JES2 in //PROC00.  I
thought it was coming from the former, but now I'm not sure.

sas

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 9:54 PM Ed Jaffe 
wrote:

> On 4/10/2023 6:31 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote:
> > Actually, you can have a
> > Job card in the PROC in PROCLIB but it's not as flexible as using
> IEFJOBS.
>
> I experimented with this and learned that you are correct. However, I
> encountered two JCL errors in the process.
>
> The first was:
>
> IEFC005I PROC STATEMENT WITHOUT MATCHING PEND STATEMENT
>
> So I added the PEND statement, then I received:
>
> IEFC607I JOB HAS NO STEPS
>
> So I added an EXEC PROC=procname card after the newly-added PEND and the
> STC did indeed start.
>
> Thanks for the edjumacation...
>
>

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Seymour J Metz]

What's in JOBCLASS(STC)?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Smith 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 10:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

Well, here's the real deal:

//BPXASJOB 1,MSGCLASS=Z
//BPXAS   PROC
//*
//* Note:  This is a started JOB now, so the MSGCLASS can be set.
//*Z is purged automatically.  Change to X if you want to
//*enable the output.  To revert to the IBM version in
//*SYS1.PROCLIB, just rename this member in USER.PROCLIB.
//*
//IEFPROC EXEC PGM=IEFIIC,DPRTY=12,PARM=',,&GETWORK,BPXPRJRW'
///
//*  */
//*01* PROCEDURE NAME : BPXAS*/
//*  */
//*01* FUNCTION: Used to start the MVS initiator */
//*  */
//*01* COMPONENT: SC1B6 (Initiator)  */
//*  */
//*01* DISTRIBUTION LIBRARY: SYS1.PROCLIB*/
///
//PEND
//EXEC BPXAS
//

This is member named BPXAS in a library allocated to //IEFPDSI in the
master JCL.  But, the library is also allocated to JES2 in //PROC00.  I
thought it was coming from the former, but now I'm not sure.

sas

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 9:54 PM Ed Jaffe 
wrote:

> On 4/10/2023 6:31 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote:
> > Actually, you can have a
> > Job card in the PROC in PROCLIB but it's not as flexible as using
> IEFJOBS.
>
> I experimented with this and learned that you are correct. However, I
> encountered two JCL errors in the process.
>
> The first was:
>
> IEFC005I PROC STATEMENT WITHOUT MATCHING PEND STATEMENT
>
> So I added the PEND statement, then I received:
>
> IEFC607I JOB HAS NO STEPS
>
> So I added an EXEC PROC=procname card after the newly-added PEND and the
> STC did indeed start.
>
> Thanks for the edjumacation...
>
>

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 18:58:29 -0500, Charles Mills wrote:

>@Gil, which IBM?  This is a Dallas system, and it is set up the way IBM 
>sets up Dallas systems, which might be a third case in addition to "defaults" 
>and "recommendations." We have changed very little of that sort of thing.
>
If you didn't change it, and it's broke, and you're paying for  it,
they should fix it, not IBM-MAIN.

If a shop buys a brand new z/OS system, and they never had one before
(does that happen nowadays?) does it come configured as "defaults",
or  "recommendations", or "third case", or should they really, really hire
a consultant?

-- 
gil

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Wayne Bickerdike]

I've used the Dallas systems. You are free to customize. IBM provide
USER.PROCLIB etc. It allows you to add your custom routines which can allow
such things as MSGCLASS=Z et al.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 2:10 PM Paul Gilmartin <
042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 18:58:29 -0500, Charles Mills wrote:
>
> >@Gil, which IBM?  This is a Dallas system, and it is set up the way
> IBM sets up Dallas systems, which might be a third case in addition to
> "defaults" and "recommendations." We have changed very little of that sort
> of thing.
> >
> If you didn't change it, and it's broke, and you're paying for  it,
> they should fix it, not IBM-MAIN.
>
> If a shop buys a brand new z/OS system, and they never had one before
> (does that happen nowadays?) does it come configured as "defaults",
> or  "recommendations", or "third case", or should they really, really hire
> a consultant?
>
> --
> gil
>
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: What is BPXAS and how do I make them stop piling up?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 15:33:28 +1000, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:

>I've used the Dallas systems. You are free to customize. IBM provide
>USER.PROCLIB etc. It allows you to add your custom routines which can allow
>such things as MSGCLASS=Z et al.
>
No, no, no!  No customization; it should *just*work*!

I installed a (virtual) desktop Linux system.  It would be unthinkable to have
to ask/research "What do I need to customize so fork() (the function behind
BPXAS) doesn't crash after a number of invocations because of a resource
leak?"

-- 
gil

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