Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Lester, Bob]

Hi All,

 I do it backwards to that.  I have Win10 home, VMware Workstation, and run 
my Linux VMs - CentOS 6 & 7 on it.   It seems pretty snappy and no issues - at 
least for what I use it for.

 My environment:  Satellite P75-A7100, Intel I7 - 4700MQ, 4-cores, 8 
logical.  24GB RAM.  SSD for C:, Spinning disk for the rest.

Thanks!
BobL

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 4:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor 
billing by 15 percent (our else) [ EXTERNAL ]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Frank Swarbrick < frank.swarbr...@outlook.com> 
wrote:

> What kind of performance do you get running W10 on a Linux VM?  I 
> tried running W10 under a VM on Mac OS and the performance was 
> dreadful.  I ended up buying a new laptop with W10 on it.
>
>
​I don't have W10. I actually have Win 8 Pro running on my Linux box. The 
performance is fantastic. Of course, I'm running on:

Brand: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1276 v3 @ 3.60GHz Hz Advertised: 3.6000 GHz Hz 
Actual: 3.7997 GHz Hz Advertised Raw: (36, 0) Hz Actual Raw: 
(3799731000, 0)
Arch: X86_64
Bits: 64

​


--
Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[John McKown]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Frank Swarbrick <
frank.swarbr...@outlook.com> wrote:

> What kind of performance do you get running W10 on a Linux VM?  I tried
> running W10 under a VM on Mac OS and the performance was dreadful.  I ended
> up buying a new laptop with W10 on it.
>
>
​I don't have W10. I actually have Win 8 Pro running on my Linux box. The
performance is fantastic. Of course, I'm running on:

Brand: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1276 v3 @ 3.60GHz
Hz Advertised: 3.6000 GHz
Hz Actual: 3.7997 GHz
Hz Advertised Raw: (36, 0)
Hz Actual Raw: (3799731000, 0)
Arch: X86_64
Bits: 64

​


-- 
Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Frank Swarbrick]

What kind of performance do you get running W10 on a Linux VM?  I tried running 
W10 under a VM on Mac OS and the performance was dreadful.  I ended up buying a 
new laptop with W10 on it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
John McKown 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 2:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor 
billing by 15 percent (our else)

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
> at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover.
> Be careful what you wish for."
>
> Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
> updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
> system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc. etc.
>
> No thanks.
>

At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
_required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
"We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts
of his "legacy" remains.



>
> Bobbie Jo Justice
> Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
>
>
--
Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Bill Wilkie]

I never saw that one, I'll give it a Try.


Thanks

Bill





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Barkow, Eileen 
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 12:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

To turn off windows 10 updates:

ctl-alt-delete->task manager->services->wuauserv->right click->stop

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 12:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 26 Jun 2017 08:45:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov (Barkow, Eileen) wrote:

>I thought that the Windows 10 Update problems were due to something in the way 
>that Windows 10 had been mis-installed or upgraded from  Windows 7 on my 
>refurbished computer.
>It would just update and update and then claim that the updates could not be 
>completed for some reason.
>After researching all the error msgs and performing the supposed fixes which 
>did not work,
> I finally figured out how to turn the updates off in the systems settings and 
> have not had any problems since then.

How did you do that?

Clark Morris
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Bill Wilkie
>Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:51 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you 
>must install the updates.
>
>
>I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
>CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
>some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
>printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
>the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
>day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
>I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
>crashes.
>
>
>For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
>connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
>I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
>found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
>number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
>and spent a fortune.
>
>
>The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
>makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
>biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
>Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
>finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a 
>USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, 
>I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. 
>I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came 
>up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making 
>from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>Clark Morris 
>Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
>idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>
>>Guys,
>>
>>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>>2.2 .
>>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>>basically all alone with other developers.
>>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>
>Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
>to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
>have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>
>Clark Morris
>>
>>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>>get pulled in ..
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "As I  am reading 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Barkow, Eileen]

To turn off windows 10 updates:

ctl-alt-delete->task manager->services->wuauserv->right click->stop

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 12:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 26 Jun 2017 08:45:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov (Barkow, Eileen) wrote:

>I thought that the Windows 10 Update problems were due to something in the way 
>that Windows 10 had been mis-installed or upgraded from  Windows 7 on my 
>refurbished computer.
>It would just update and update and then claim that the updates could not be 
>completed for some reason.
>After researching all the error msgs and performing the supposed fixes which 
>did not work,
> I finally figured out how to turn the updates off in the systems settings and 
> have not had any problems since then.

How did you do that?

Clark Morris
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Bill Wilkie
>Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:51 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you 
>must install the updates.
>
>
>I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
>CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
>some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
>printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
>the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
>day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
>I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
>crashes.
>
>
>For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
>connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
>I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
>found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
>number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
>and spent a fortune.
>
>
>The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
>makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
>biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
>Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
>finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a 
>USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, 
>I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. 
>I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came 
>up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making 
>from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>Clark Morris 
>Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
>idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>
>>Guys,
>>
>>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>>2.2 .
>>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>>basically all alone with other developers.
>>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>
>Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
>to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
>have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>
>Clark Morris
>>
>>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>>get pulled in ..
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>>> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>>> recover.
>>> > Be careful what you wish for."
>>> >
>>> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>>> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
>>> > system, 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Bill Wilkie]

To set a metered connection in Windows 10 and stop the automatic updates:


Select Start Windows logo Start button > Settings Gear-shaped Settings icon > 
Network & Internet > Wi-Fi Expanding curves Wi-Fi icon > Manage known networks.
2
Select the Wi-Fi network > Properties > turn on Set as metered connection.

No more automatic updates. Although My wife had to turn it back on to print 
some stuff, then turned it off again.

As far as thinking it was your new computer, When mine crashed, I went out and 
bout a new HP and It died with I/O errors after a windows 10 updates. I had it 
only for 6 months. Did some searching and found out some new machines that were 
turned for the first time experienced disk failures after Windows 10 updates.

Bill



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Barkow, Eileen 
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

There was an option somewhere  to turn the updates off altogether - I don't 
remember right now but will check it when I get home and will let you know 
tomorrow.
These updates were driving me crazy - I was even trying to blame the problem on 
Walmart since I bought the discounted refurbished laptop from them
(though at a bargain price of $300 for an 8gb HP)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 12:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 26 Jun 2017 08:45:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov (Barkow, Eileen) wrote:

>I thought that the Windows 10 Update problems were due to something in the way 
>that Windows 10 had been mis-installed or upgraded from  Windows 7 on my 
>refurbished computer.
>It would just update and update and then claim that the updates could not be 
>completed for some reason.
>After researching all the error msgs and performing the supposed fixes which 
>did not work,
> I finally figured out how to turn the updates off in the systems settings and 
> have not had any problems since then.

How did you do that?

Clark Morris
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Bill Wilkie
>Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:51 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you 
>must install the updates.
>
>
>I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
>CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
>some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
>printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
>the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
>day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
>I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
>crashes.
>
>
>For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
>connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
>I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
>found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
>number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
>and spent a fortune.
>
>
>The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
>makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
>biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
>Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
>finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a 
>USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, 
>I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. 
>I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came 
>up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making 
>from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>Clark Morris 
>Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Barkow, Eileen]

There was an option somewhere  to turn the updates off altogether - I don't 
remember right now but will check it when I get home and will let you know 
tomorrow.
These updates were driving me crazy - I was even trying to blame the problem on 
Walmart since I bought the discounted refurbished laptop from them 
(though at a bargain price of $300 for an 8gb HP)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 12:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 26 Jun 2017 08:45:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov (Barkow, Eileen) wrote:

>I thought that the Windows 10 Update problems were due to something in the way 
>that Windows 10 had been mis-installed or upgraded from  Windows 7 on my 
>refurbished computer.
>It would just update and update and then claim that the updates could not be 
>completed for some reason.
>After researching all the error msgs and performing the supposed fixes which 
>did not work,
> I finally figured out how to turn the updates off in the systems settings and 
> have not had any problems since then.

How did you do that?

Clark Morris
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Bill Wilkie
>Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:51 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you 
>must install the updates.
>
>
>I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
>CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
>some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
>printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
>the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
>day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
>I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
>crashes.
>
>
>For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
>connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
>I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
>found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
>number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
>and spent a fortune.
>
>
>The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
>makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
>biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
>Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
>finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a 
>USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, 
>I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. 
>I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came 
>up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making 
>from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>Clark Morris 
>Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
>idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>
>>Guys,
>>
>>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>>2.2 .
>>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>>basically all alone with other developers.
>>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>
>Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
>to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
>have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>
>Clark Morris
>>
>>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>>get pulled in ..
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>>> > at least 10 times and spent 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 26 Jun 2017 08:45:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov (Barkow, Eileen) wrote:

>I thought that the Windows 10 Update problems were due to something in the way 
>that Windows 10 had been mis-installed or upgraded from  Windows 7 on my 
>refurbished computer.
>It would just update and update and then claim that the updates could not be 
>completed for some reason.
>After researching all the error msgs and performing the supposed fixes which 
>did not work,
> I finally figured out how to turn the updates off in the systems settings and 
> have not had any problems since then.

How did you do that?

Clark Morris
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Bill Wilkie
>Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:51 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you 
>must install the updates.
>
>
>I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
>CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
>some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
>printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
>the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
>day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
>I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
>crashes.
>
>
>For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
>connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
>I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
>found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
>number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
>and spent a fortune.
>
>
>The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
>makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
>biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
>Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
>finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a 
>USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, 
>I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. 
>I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came 
>up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making 
>from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>Clark Morris 
>Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
>programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
>[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
>idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>
>>Guys,
>>
>>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>>2.2 .
>>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>>basically all alone with other developers.
>>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>
>Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
>to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
>have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>
>Clark Morris
>>
>>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>>get pulled in ..
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>>> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>>> recover.
>>> > Be careful what you wish for."
>>> >
>>> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>>> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
>>> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc.
>>> etc.
>>> >
>>> > No thanks.
>>> >
>>>
>>> ?At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
>>> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
>>> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
>>> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
>>> "We are going 100.0% 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Barkow, Eileen]

I thought that the Windows 10 Update problems were due to something in the way 
that Windows 10 had been mis-installed or upgraded from  Windows 7 on my 
refurbished computer.
It would just update and update and then claim that the updates could not be 
completed for some reason.
After researching all the error msgs and performing the supposed fixes which 
did not work,
 I finally figured out how to turn the updates off in the systems settings and 
have not had any problems since then.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bill Wilkie
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you must 
install the updates.


I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
day when I need to enable it again.


I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
crashes.


For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
and spent a fortune.


The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
biggest RIP OFF of the century.


Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a USB 
port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, I was 
only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. I used 
my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came up.  I 
asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making from 
Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.


Bill




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Clark Morris 
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:

>Guys,
>
>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>2.2 .
>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>basically all alone with other developers.
>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.

Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
have the choice of Shutdown without update?

Clark Morris
>
>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>get pulled in ..
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>> recover.
>> > Be careful what you wish for."
>> >
>> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
>> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc.
>> etc.
>> >
>> > No thanks.
>> >
>>
>> ?At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
>> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
>> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
>> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
>> "We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
>> it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
>> immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
>> Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Mike Schwab]

I got a really cheap eee 10 inch laptop from woot.com.  Would not
connect to wifi.  Did a search on the message and it was a bad wifi
driver.  Downloaded another Linux distribution and installed.

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 6:51 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
> The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you 
> must install the updates.
>
>
> I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
> CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
> some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
> printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to 
> remove the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry 
> about the day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
> I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
> crashes.
>
>
> For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
> connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. 
> When I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. 
> I found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
> number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
> and spent a fortune.
>
>
> The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
> makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is 
> the biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
> Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
> finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a 
> USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, 
> I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. 
> I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it 
> came up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be 
> making from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.
>
>
> Bill
>
> 
>
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Clark Morris 
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
> programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
> [Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
> idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>
>>Guys,
>>
>>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>>2.2 .
>>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>>basically all alone with other developers.
>>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>
> Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
> to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
> have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>
> Clark Morris
>>
>>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>>get pulled in ..
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>>> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>>> recover.
>>> > Be careful what you wish for."
>>> >
>>> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>>> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
>>> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc.
>>> etc.
>>> >
>>> > No thanks.
>>> >
>>>
>>> ?At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
>>> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
>>> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
>>> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
>>> "We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
>>> it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
>>> immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
>>> Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts
>>> of his "legacy" remains.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Bobbie Jo Justice
>>> > Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
>>> >
>>> >
>>> --
>>> Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.
>>>
>>> Maranatha! <><
>>> John McKown
>>>
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu 

Assume versus understand was Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 25 Jun 2017 08:39:25 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:

>I firmly believe criteria thinking is important in Windows,unix,Linux and
>of course the "Z system"  world.
>Many of the same theories and practices apply. Everyday I run into people
>who have a tough time with system installs , system problems because
>instead of understanding how something works they assume.

Because there is so much to know and understand on any platform, I
have gotten myself in trouble with assumptions.  I also have been able
to solve problems by digging as deeply as needed.I have the
background to understand many things although I realize that my
knowledge is limited and I can get myself in trouble.  I rely on the
now retired school psychologist down the road for help with some of my
hardware and communications problems.  Experience and the right mind
set helps.  For those who are just using the computer as a tool to get
something done, they can be in the same boat as grasping the simple
things to us as we would be in grasping the simple things in their
fields of competence and knowledge.

Clark Morris 
>
>On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
>
>> The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you
>> must install the updates.
>>
>>
>> I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED
>> CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes
>> with some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she
>> tried printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had
>> to remove the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I
>> worry about the day when I need to enable it again.
>>
>>
>> I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause
>> crashes.
>>
>>
>> For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't
>> connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working.
>> When I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI
>> driver. I found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I
>> pity the number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy
>> or Staples and spent a fortune.
>>
>>
>> The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and
>> Microsoft makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and
>> IMHO it is the biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>>
>>
>> Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and
>> finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a
>> USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a
>> restart, I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a
>> stomach ache. I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB
>> devices and it came up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much
>> they must be making from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said
>> a fortune.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Clark Morris 
>> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems
>> programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>>
>> [Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
>> idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>>
>> >Guys,
>> >
>> >I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>> >2.2 .
>> >But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>> >basically all alone with other developers.
>> >My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>>
>> Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
>> to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
>> have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>>
>> Clark Morris
>> >
>> >I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so
>> I
>> >get pulled in ..
>> >
>> >Scott
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown > >
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>> >> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> >> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my
>> laptop
>> >> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>> >> recover.
>> >> > Be careful what you wish for."
>> >> >
>> >> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>> >> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire
>> operating
>> >> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[scott Ford]

I firmly believe criteria thinking is important in Windows,unix,Linux and
of course the "Z system"  world.
Many of the same theories and practices apply. Everyday I run into people
who have a tough time with system installs , system problems because
instead of understanding how something works they assume.

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:

> The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you
> must install the updates.
>
>
> I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED
> CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes
> with some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she
> tried printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had
> to remove the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I
> worry about the day when I need to enable it again.
>
>
> I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause
> crashes.
>
>
> For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't
> connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working.
> When I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI
> driver. I found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I
> pity the number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy
> or Staples and spent a fortune.
>
>
> The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and
> Microsoft makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and
> IMHO it is the biggest RIP OFF of the century.
>
>
> Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and
> finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a
> USB port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a
> restart, I was only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a
> stomach ache. I used my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB
> devices and it came up.  I asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much
> they must be making from Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said
> a fortune.
>
>
> Bill
>
> 
>
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Clark Morris 
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems
> programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
> [Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
> idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:
>
> >Guys,
> >
> >I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
> >2.2 .
> >But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
> >basically all alone with other developers.
> >My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.
>
> Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
> to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
> have the choice of Shutdown without update?
>
> Clark Morris
> >
> >I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so
> I
> >get pulled in ..
> >
> >Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown  >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
> >> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
> >> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my
> laptop
> >> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
> >> recover.
> >> > Be careful what you wish for."
> >> >
> >> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
> >> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire
> operating
> >> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again,
> etc.
> >> etc.
> >> >
> >> > No thanks.
> >> >
> >>
> >> ?At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux
> -
> >> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
> >> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
> >> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of
> the
> >> "We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to
> run
> >> it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
> >> immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
> >> Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but
> parts
> >> of his "legacy" remains.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Bobbie Jo Justice
> >> > Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
> >> >
> >> >
> >> --
> >> Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.
> >>
> >> Maranatha! <><
> >> John McKown
> >>
> >> 

Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Bill Wilkie]

I hear that. I was shutting down due to a really bad T-Storm and had tom wait 
for updates to complete. SCARY!


Bill



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Clark Morris 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 7:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was 
Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 23 Jun 2017 06:14:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
pacemainl...@gmail.com (Mark Pace) wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.

As I understand it the continuous update is to be done by applying
updates at times determined by the installation.  While there is the
problem of function enhancement and change being inter-mixed with
corrective code including integrity APARs, the disruption time is
chosen by the installation.

I have Windows 10 Home on the three computers at home and this version
will reboot my computer to apply fixes outside of normal working
hours.  The normal working hours can not be set to effectively be the
full 24 hours in a day.  Thus I have had unattended uploads trashed
and my wife and I have both been lucky that we have not lost any data
due to this careless implementation of update.  Further the
irresponsible people at Microsoft have decided to make it impossible
to shutdown without update.  This of course could be disastrous in a
power outage or imminent loss situation.  Of course it would be nice
to be able to apply updates the way the Tandem systems do without
bringing down the system.

Unfortunately connection to the Internet on any platform means that
integrity APARs or their equivalent must be applied as soon as
feasible.  My disagreement with Microsoft is forced update under all
circumstances.  I can accept the annoyance of constant reminders to
update.

Clark Morris
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>> at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Edward Gould 
>> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:12 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts
>> contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>>
>> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris 
>> wrote:
>> >> __SNIP--
>> 
>> >
>> > If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
>> > understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
>> > any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
>> > assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
>> > always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
>> > assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
>> > initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
>> > just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.
>> >
>> > As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
>> > hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
>> > if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
>> > that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
>> > I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
>> > for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
>> > to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
>> > grunt work is a good thing.
>> >
>> > Clark Morris
>>
>> Clark,
>>
>> The instructor just said systems programmers. I will agree with you on the
>> exits and assembler though.
>> Having said that I just cannot see a non assembler person going through
>> system dumps. The needed CB structure and to decode machine language and
>> understand what each instruction is attempting to do is just impossible (to
>> me)to expect of an average COBOL programmer. Also having said that as long
>> as IBM is as cryptic  as some of their messages can be *AND* trying to
>> understand in context what the return code is sort of indicating would be
>> daunting to and programmer type, IMO. AT least they got rid of “call your
>> local system programmer” explanations in the M
>> As long as I semi brought up SERVPAC, IBM needlessly (IMO) complicated the
>> install process. In my opinion CBIPO and CBPDO were pretty much as good as
>> it is going to get. IBM should have kept the level of the base better up to
>> date, was the only issue I had. It would have cut down on 

Re: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Bill Wilkie]

The choices you get are UPDATE AND RESTART or UPDATE AND SHUTDOWN. But you must 
install the updates.


I learned later after having numerous crashes that you can set the METERED 
CONNECTION and it will  stop the automatic updates. But even that comes with 
some quirks. For example, I set it on my wife's machine but when she tried 
printing it said she may exceed her time so it wouldn't print. I had to remove 
the metered connection, do the print and turn it on again. I worry about the 
day when I need to enable it again.


I am not against the automatic updates. I am against the ones that cause 
crashes.


For example, they clobbered my WIFI driver after one update and I couldn't 
connect. I had to hardwire to the Comcast box to be able to keep working. When 
I had time, I did some searches and found they clobbered my WIFI driver. I 
found where to download the new driver and it worked again. But I pity the 
number of people who didn't know how to fix it and ran to Best Buy or Staples 
and spent a fortune.


The worst part is when they tell people they need a new machine and Microsoft 
makes yet more money. And nobody is saying a word about it, and IMHO it is the 
biggest RIP OFF of the century.


Another one was It didn't come up after the updates. I researched that and 
finally found that it was because you couldn't have anything plugged into a USB 
port, so even the wireless mouse stopped it from coming up. On a restart, I was 
only seeing those circular dots, the ones that give you a stomach ache. I used 
my wife's machine to Look It up and removed the USB devices and it came up.  I 
asked the guys at Best Buys and Staples how much they must be making from 
Windows 10 updates killing machines and they said a fortune.


Bill




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Clark Morris 
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 8:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:

>Guys,
>
>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>2.2 .
>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>basically all alone with other developers.
>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.

Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
have the choice of Shutdown without update?

Clark Morris
>
>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>get pulled in ..
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>> recover.
>> > Be careful what you wish for."
>> >
>> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
>> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc.
>> etc.
>> >
>> > No thanks.
>> >
>>
>> ?At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
>> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
>> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
>> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
>> "We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
>> it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
>> immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
>> Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts
>> of his "legacy" remains.
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Bobbie Jo Justice
>> > Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.
>>
>> Maranatha! <><
>> John McKown
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the 

Windows 10 Pro automatic update: was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 24 Jun 2017 12:43:13 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
idfli...@gmail.com (scott Ford) wrote:

>Guys,
>
>I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
>2.2 .
>But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
>basically all alone with other developers.
>My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.

Does Windows 10 Pro have the forced automatic update?  Is the ability
to say that normal working hours are 00:01 to 24:00?  Do you always
have the choice of Shutdown without update?

Clark Morris
>
>I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
>get pulled in ..
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
>> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
>> recover.
>> > Be careful what you wish for."
>> >
>> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
>> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
>> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc.
>> etc.
>> >
>> > No thanks.
>> >
>>
>> ?At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
>> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
>> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
>> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
>> "We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
>> it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
>> immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
>> Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts
>> of his "legacy" remains.
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Bobbie Jo Justice
>> > Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.
>>
>> Maranatha! <><
>> John McKown
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[scott Ford]

Guys,

I am a bit different. We run z/PDT on OpenSuse Leap 42.2 x64..running z/OS
2.2 .
But we us Windows and Linux for our LDAP with are STC agents on z/OS. I am
basically all alone with other developers.
My laptop runs Windows 10 Pro with a Tn3270 client and use ssh.

I am seeing a lot of customers who lack knowledge in a lot of areas ...so I
get pulled in ..

Scott



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:19 PM John McKown 
wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
> 0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
> > updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
> > at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to
> recover.
> > Be careful what you wish for."
> >
> > Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
> > updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
> > system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc.
> etc.
> >
> > No thanks.
> >
>
> ​At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
> Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
> _required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
> Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
> "We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
> it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
> immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
> Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts
> of his "legacy" remains.
>
>
>
> >
> > Bobbie Jo Justice
> > Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
> >
> >
> --
> Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
-- 
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Jesse 1 Robinson]

SPE is very much alive and well, especially since the change to two-year cycle 
for z/OS release. The big difference is that SPEs are effectively part of the 
normal maintenance stream. You can avoid installing one for a while, but 
eventually it gets preREQed by some other fix(es) that you may need. Whether 
you really want the SPE or not.

With continuous maintenance, you install PTFs but are not obligated to activate 
new function until you're ready. And then it can be piecemeal in individual 
environments. At least that's the promise. 
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Field, Alan
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 2:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

Sounds like a variant of the SPE (Small Program Enhancement) of a few decades 
ago :),m and Selectable Units. 

Alan Field
Systems Engineer Principal
Blue Cross Blue Shield of MN

651.662.3546

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jesse 1 Robinson
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 4:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer 
was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

CAUTION:  This email originated outside of the organization.
DO NOT CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe.

__
After our So Cal z User Group meeting last week, I feel that 'continuous 
update' has been misunderstood. We had a presentation on DB2 
latest-greatest-and-beyond. I'm not a DB2 guy, but having lived in the 
copter-wash of DB2 version upgrades several times in the last few years, I see 
hope in the new paradigm. 

DB2 will not dump changes on us unexpectedly. On the contrary, it's version 
upgrades that enforce wholesale changes in huge chunks that hit us all at once. 
A troublesome version change has to be dealt with even if it's irrelevant to 
the installation. Continuous update allows a shop to pick and choose feature 
and function and schedule the timing independent of other changes. If it works 
as intended, continuous update will be a huge step forward.  

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 23 Jun 2017 06:14:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main 
pacemainl...@gmail.com (Mark Pace) wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.

As I understand it the continuous update is to be done by applying updates at 
times determined by the installation.  While there is the problem of function 
enhancement and change being inter-mixed with corrective code including 
integrity APARs, the disruption time is chosen by the installation.

I have Windows 10 Home on the three computers at home and this version will 
reboot my computer to apply fixes outside of normal working hours.  The normal 
working hours can not be set to effectively be the full 24 hours in a day.  
Thus I have had unattended uploads trashed and my wife and I have both been 
lucky that we have not lost any data due to this careless implementation of 
update.  Further the irresponsible people at Microsoft have decided to make it 
impossible to shutdown without update.  This of course could be disastrous in a 
power outage or imminent loss situation.  Of course it would be nice to be able 
to apply updates the way the Tandem systems do without bringing down the 
system.  

Unfortunately connection to the Internet on any platform means that integrity 
APARs or their equivalent must be applied as soon as feasible.  My disagreement 
with Microsoft is forced update under all circumstances.  I can accept the 
annoyance of constant reminders to update.

Clark Morris
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic 
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my 
>> laptop at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to 
>> recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> 

Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Field, Alan]

Sounds like a variant of the SPE (Small Program Enhancement) of a few decades 
ago :),m and Selectable Units. 

Alan Field
Systems Engineer Principal
Blue Cross Blue Shield of MN

651.662.3546

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jesse 1 Robinson
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 4:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer 
was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

CAUTION:  This email originated outside of the organization.
DO NOT CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe.

__
After our So Cal z User Group meeting last week, I feel that 'continuous 
update' has been misunderstood. We had a presentation on DB2 
latest-greatest-and-beyond. I'm not a DB2 guy, but having lived in the 
copter-wash of DB2 version upgrades several times in the last few years, I see 
hope in the new paradigm. 

DB2 will not dump changes on us unexpectedly. On the contrary, it's version 
upgrades that enforce wholesale changes in huge chunks that hit us all at once. 
A troublesome version change has to be dealt with even if it's irrelevant to 
the installation. Continuous update allows a shop to pick and choose feature 
and function and schedule the timing independent of other changes. If it works 
as intended, continuous update will be a huge step forward.  

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 23 Jun 2017 06:14:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main 
pacemainl...@gmail.com (Mark Pace) wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.

As I understand it the continuous update is to be done by applying updates at 
times determined by the installation.  While there is the problem of function 
enhancement and change being inter-mixed with corrective code including 
integrity APARs, the disruption time is chosen by the installation.

I have Windows 10 Home on the three computers at home and this version will 
reboot my computer to apply fixes outside of normal working hours.  The normal 
working hours can not be set to effectively be the full 24 hours in a day.  
Thus I have had unattended uploads trashed and my wife and I have both been 
lucky that we have not lost any data due to this careless implementation of 
update.  Further the irresponsible people at Microsoft have decided to make it 
impossible to shutdown without update.  This of course could be disastrous in a 
power outage or imminent loss situation.  Of course it would be nice to be able 
to apply updates the way the Tandem systems do without bringing down the 
system.  

Unfortunately connection to the Internet on any platform means that integrity 
APARs or their equivalent must be applied as soon as feasible.  My disagreement 
with Microsoft is forced update under all circumstances.  I can accept the 
annoyance of constant reminders to update.

Clark Morris
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic 
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my 
>> laptop at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to 
>> recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on 
>> behalf of Edward Gould 
>> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:12 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts 
>> contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>>
>> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris 
>> > 
>> wrote:
>> >> __SNIP--
>> 
>> >
>> > If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people 
>> > who understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile 
>> > goal for any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the 
>> > need for assembler coded exits, this is more doable but 
>> > customization will always be with us.  While there can be plenty of 
>> > obscurity in assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB 
>> > members and JES initialization decks that control how the systems 
>> > operate?  These are just weird programming interfaces 

Re: Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Jesse 1 Robinson]

After our So Cal z User Group meeting last week, I feel that 'continuous 
update' has been misunderstood. We had a presentation on DB2 
latest-greatest-and-beyond. I'm not a DB2 guy, but having lived in the 
copter-wash of DB2 version upgrades several times in the last few years, I see 
hope in the new paradigm. 

DB2 will not dump changes on us unexpectedly. On the contrary, it's version 
upgrades that enforce wholesale changes in huge chunks that hit us all at once. 
A troublesome version change has to be dealt with even if it's irrelevant to 
the installation. Continuous update allows a shop to pick and choose feature 
and function and schedule the timing independent of other changes. If it works 
as intended, continuous update will be a huge step forward.  

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Clark Morris
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems 
programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Default] On 23 Jun 2017 06:14:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main 
pacemainl...@gmail.com (Mark Pace) wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.

As I understand it the continuous update is to be done by applying updates at 
times determined by the installation.  While there is the problem of function 
enhancement and change being inter-mixed with corrective code including 
integrity APARs, the disruption time is chosen by the installation.

I have Windows 10 Home on the three computers at home and this version will 
reboot my computer to apply fixes outside of normal working hours.  The normal 
working hours can not be set to effectively be the full 24 hours in a day.  
Thus I have had unattended uploads trashed and my wife and I have both been 
lucky that we have not lost any data due to this careless implementation of 
update.  Further the irresponsible people at Microsoft have decided to make it 
impossible to shutdown without update.  This of course could be disastrous in a 
power outage or imminent loss situation.  Of course it would be nice to be able 
to apply updates the way the Tandem systems do without bringing down the 
system.  

Unfortunately connection to the Internet on any platform means that integrity 
APARs or their equivalent must be applied as soon as feasible.  My disagreement 
with Microsoft is forced update under all circumstances.  I can accept the 
annoyance of constant reminders to update.

Clark Morris
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic 
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my 
>> laptop at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to 
>> recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on 
>> behalf of Edward Gould 
>> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:12 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts 
>> contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>>
>> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris 
>> > 
>> wrote:
>> >> __SNIP--
>> 
>> >
>> > If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people 
>> > who understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile 
>> > goal for any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the 
>> > need for assembler coded exits, this is more doable but 
>> > customization will always be with us.  While there can be plenty of 
>> > obscurity in assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB 
>> > members and JES initialization decks that control how the systems 
>> > operate?  These are just weird programming interfaces that can be every 
>> > bit as cryptic.
>> >
>> > As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I 
>> > would hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot 
>> > easier (and if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 
>> > available) and that less custom code is required because of all the 
>> > new concerns that I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has 
>> > become more complex for all of the operating systems so anything 
>> > that can be eliminated is to the good.  There is enough to do so 
>> > that automation of some of the grunt work is a good thing.
>> >
>> > Clark Morris
>>
>> Clark,
>>
>> The instructor just said systems programmers. I will agree with you 
>> on the exits and assembler though.
>> 

Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[John McKown]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Bobbie Justice <
0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> "As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
> at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover.
> Be careful what you wish for."
>
> Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic
> updates, system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating
> system, reload various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc. etc.
>
> No thanks.
>

​At home, I have Windows 7 Professional which I run in a VM under Linux -
Fedora 25. The _only_ time that I use this is to log on to work. It is
_required_ because work eliminated our VPN in favor of using "Microsoft
Terminal Server Gateway". This decision was made during the height of the
"We are going 100.0% Microsoft! If it's not MS, we will refuse to run
it!" to the sounds of cheering by the Windows support staff.This was
immediately after our business-oriented CIO retired and the Windows
Infrastructure manager was promoted to CIO. That person is gone, but parts
of his "legacy" remains.



>
> Bobbie Jo Justice
> Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
>
>
-- 
Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Bobbie Justice]

"As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic updates. 
Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop at least 10 
times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover. Be careful what 
you wish for."

Ditto on windows anything. I've had quite enough of windows automatic updates, 
system restore, reboot, safe mode, reload the entire operating system, reload 
various drivers, reload various apps, reboot again, etc. etc. 

No thanks.   

Bobbie Jo Justice 
Senior z/OS Systems Engineer 

--
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Windows 10 auto update was Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 23 Jun 2017 06:14:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
pacemainl...@gmail.com (Mark Pace) wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.

As I understand it the continuous update is to be done by applying
updates at times determined by the installation.  While there is the
problem of function enhancement and change being inter-mixed with
corrective code including integrity APARs, the disruption time is
chosen by the installation.

I have Windows 10 Home on the three computers at home and this version
will reboot my computer to apply fixes outside of normal working
hours.  The normal working hours can not be set to effectively be the
full 24 hours in a day.  Thus I have had unattended uploads trashed
and my wife and I have both been lucky that we have not lost any data
due to this careless implementation of update.  Further the
irresponsible people at Microsoft have decided to make it impossible
to shutdown without update.  This of course could be disastrous in a
power outage or imminent loss situation.  Of course it would be nice
to be able to apply updates the way the Tandem systems do without
bringing down the system.  

Unfortunately connection to the Internet on any platform means that
integrity APARs or their equivalent must be applied as soon as
feasible.  My disagreement with Microsoft is forced update under all
circumstances.  I can accept the annoyance of constant reminders to
update.

Clark Morris
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>> at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Edward Gould 
>> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:12 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts
>> contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>>
>> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris 
>> wrote:
>> >> __SNIP--
>> 
>> >
>> > If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
>> > understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
>> > any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
>> > assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
>> > always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
>> > assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
>> > initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
>> > just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.
>> >
>> > As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
>> > hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
>> > if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
>> > that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
>> > I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
>> > for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
>> > to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
>> > grunt work is a good thing.
>> >
>> > Clark Morris
>>
>> Clark,
>>
>> The instructor just said systems programmers. I will agree with you on the
>> exits and assembler though.
>> Having said that I just cannot see a non assembler person going through
>> system dumps. The needed CB structure and to decode machine language and
>> understand what each instruction is attempting to do is just impossible (to
>> me)to expect of an average COBOL programmer. Also having said that as long
>> as IBM is as cryptic  as some of their messages can be *AND* trying to
>> understand in context what the return code is sort of indicating would be
>> daunting to and programmer type, IMO. AT least they got rid of “call your
>> local system programmer” explanations in the M
>> As long as I semi brought up SERVPAC, IBM needlessly (IMO) complicated the
>> install process. In my opinion CBIPO and CBPDO were pretty much as good as
>> it is going to get. IBM should have kept the level of the base better up to
>> date, was the only issue I had. It would have cut down on the Apply’s.
>> Yes there are pluses for sevrpac but you stilll need to know a bit about
>> SMPE. Given that SMPE is the standard for installation of maintenance I
>> really don’t see SERVPAC being all that helpful. I know when I tried a
>> couple of SERVPACs they were ugly and could be screwed up easily. The
>> German support was less than typical IBM support.
>> I got the feeling that (at least according to IBM) that customers
>> complained about the cost of system 

Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Nims,Alva John (Al)]

Gee, I think that has been floating around for as long as, "Mainframes Are 
Dead!"

Al Nims
Systems Admin/Programmer 3
UFIT
University of Florida
(352) 273-1298

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jesse 1 Robinson
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor 
billing by 15 percent (our else)

Some time ago an idea floated through my field of vision that IBM would 
eliminate even software distribution by supplying the entire OS on a chip. I 
must have missed the GA announcement...

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 8:32 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts 
contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:15:21 -0400, Mark Pace wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic 
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my 
>> laptop at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to 
>> recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>> 
I've had remarkably little difficulty, none that I recall, with updates to 
Linux systems, Intel and ARM.  I do these electively, not automatically, but I 
don't age them; I risk being an early adopter.

But my personal Linux systems can't be considered enterprise-critical.

-- gil


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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Jesse 1 Robinson]

Some time ago an idea floated through my field of vision that IBM would 
eliminate even software distribution by supplying the entire OS on a chip. I 
must have missed the GA announcement...

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 8:32 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts 
contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:15:21 -0400, Mark Pace wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic 
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my 
>> laptop at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to 
>> recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>> 
I've had remarkably little difficulty, none that I recall, with updates to 
Linux systems, Intel and ARM.  I do these electively, not automatically, but I 
don't age them; I risk being an early adopter.

But my personal Linux systems can't be considered enterprise-critical.

-- gil


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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:15:21 -0400, Mark Pace wrote:

>I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.
>
>On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie wrote:
>
>> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
>> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
>> at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover.
>> Be careful what you wish for.
>> 
I've had remarkably little difficulty, none that I recall, with updates to
Linux systems, Intel and ARM.  I do these electively, not automatically,
but I don't age them; I risk being an early adopter.

But my personal Linux systems can't be considered enterprise-critical.

-- gil

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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Mark Pace]

I am afraid this new "Continuous Update" may lead to the same thing.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Bill Wilkie  wrote:

> As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic
> updates. Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop
> at least 10 times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover.
> Be careful what you wish for.
>
>
> Bill
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Edward Gould 
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:12 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts
> contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)
>
> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris 
> wrote:
> >> __SNIP--
> 
> >
> > If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
> > understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
> > any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
> > assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
> > always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
> > assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
> > initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
> > just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.
> >
> > As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
> > hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
> > if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
> > that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
> > I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
> > for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
> > to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
> > grunt work is a good thing.
> >
> > Clark Morris
>
> Clark,
>
> The instructor just said systems programmers. I will agree with you on the
> exits and assembler though.
> Having said that I just cannot see a non assembler person going through
> system dumps. The needed CB structure and to decode machine language and
> understand what each instruction is attempting to do is just impossible (to
> me)to expect of an average COBOL programmer. Also having said that as long
> as IBM is as cryptic  as some of their messages can be *AND* trying to
> understand in context what the return code is sort of indicating would be
> daunting to and programmer type, IMO. AT least they got rid of “call your
> local system programmer” explanations in the M
> As long as I semi brought up SERVPAC, IBM needlessly (IMO) complicated the
> install process. In my opinion CBIPO and CBPDO were pretty much as good as
> it is going to get. IBM should have kept the level of the base better up to
> date, was the only issue I had. It would have cut down on the Apply’s.
> Yes there are pluses for sevrpac but you stilll need to know a bit about
> SMPE. Given that SMPE is the standard for installation of maintenance I
> really don’t see SERVPAC being all that helpful. I know when I tried a
> couple of SERVPACs they were ugly and could be screwed up easily. The
> German support was less than typical IBM support.
> I got the feeling that (at least according to IBM) that customers
> complained about the cost of system programmers.
> Ed
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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-- 
The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent
Mainline’s positions or opinions

Mark D Pace
Senior Systems Engineer
Mainline Information Systems

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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Bill Wilkie]

As I  am reading this, all I can think of is Windows 10 and Automatic updates. 
Since accidentally going to Windows 10, I have crashed my laptop at least 10 
times and spent many days and a lot of money trying to recover. Be careful what 
you wish for.


Bill



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Edward Gould 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:12 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor 
billing by 15 percent (our else)

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris  wrote:
>> __SNIP--
>
> If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
> understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
> any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
> assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
> always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
> assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
> initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
> just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.
>
> As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
> hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
> if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
> that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
> I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
> for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
> to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
> grunt work is a good thing.
>
> Clark Morris

Clark,

The instructor just said systems programmers. I will agree with you on the 
exits and assembler though.
Having said that I just cannot see a non assembler person going through system 
dumps. The needed CB structure and to decode machine language and understand 
what each instruction is attempting to do is just impossible (to me)to expect 
of an average COBOL programmer. Also having said that as long as IBM is as 
cryptic  as some of their messages can be *AND* trying to understand in context 
what the return code is sort of indicating would be daunting to and programmer 
type, IMO. AT least they got rid of “call your local system programmer” 
explanations in the M
As long as I semi brought up SERVPAC, IBM needlessly (IMO) complicated the 
install process. In my opinion CBIPO and CBPDO were pretty much as good as it 
is going to get. IBM should have kept the level of the base better up to date, 
was the only issue I had. It would have cut down on the Apply’s.
Yes there are pluses for sevrpac but you stilll need to know a bit about SMPE. 
Given that SMPE is the standard for installation of maintenance I really don’t 
see SERVPAC being all that helpful. I know when I tried a couple of SERVPACs 
they were ugly and could be screwed up easily. The German support was less than 
typical IBM support.
I got the feeling that (at least according to IBM) that customers complained 
about the cost of system programmers.
Ed
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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Edward Gould]

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Clark Morris  wrote:
>> __SNIP--
> 
> If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
> understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
> any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
> assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
> always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
> assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
> initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
> just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.
> 
> As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
> hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
> if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
> that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
> I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
> for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
> to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
> grunt work is a good thing.
> 
> Clark Morris  

Clark,

The instructor just said systems programmers. I will agree with you on the 
exits and assembler though.
Having said that I just cannot see a non assembler person going through system 
dumps. The needed CB structure and to decode machine language and understand 
what each instruction is attempting to do is just impossible (to me)to expect 
of an average COBOL programmer. Also having said that as long as IBM is as 
cryptic  as some of their messages can be *AND* trying to understand in context 
what the return code is sort of indicating would be daunting to and programmer 
type, IMO. AT least they got rid of “call your local system programmer” 
explanations in the M
As long as I semi brought up SERVPAC, IBM needlessly (IMO) complicated the 
install process. In my opinion CBIPO and CBPDO were pretty much as good as it 
is going to get. IBM should have kept the level of the base better up to date, 
was the only issue I had. It would have cut down on the Apply’s.
Yes there are pluses for sevrpac but you stilll need to know a bit about SMPE. 
Given that SMPE is the standard for installation of maintenance I really don’t 
see SERVPAC being all that helpful. I know when I tried a couple of SERVPACs 
they were ugly and could be screwed up easily. The German support was less than 
typical IBM support.
I got the feeling that (at least according to IBM) that customers complained 
about the cost of system programmers.
Ed
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Re: Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca (Clark Morris) writes:
> If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
> understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
> any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
> assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
> always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
> assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
> initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
> just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.
>
> As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
> hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
> if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
> that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
> I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
> for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
> to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
> grunt work is a good thing.

23Jun1969 unbundling announcement started to charge for (application)
software, SE services, etc ... however IBM managed to make the
case that kernel software should still be free
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#unbundle

in the 1st part of 70s, they launch the (failed) Future System effort,
completely different from 360/370 and was going to complete 360/370 ...
supposedly major motivation was to significantly increase the
complexity of processor/controller interface as countermeasure
to clone controllers.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

however, the lack of IBM 370 offerings during the FS period is credited
with giving clone processors a market foothold. the rise of clone
processors then initiates the transition to charging for kernel software
... and my resource manager is selected as guinea pig ... I get to spend
a lot of time with lawyers and business people on charging for kernel
software
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare

eventually transition to charging for all kernel software happens
in the early 80s  starting the OCO-wars ... transition
to "object code only" ... some of this shows up in the VMSHARE
archives
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/

part of the motivation was source code availability contributed to
customers making source code motifications ... which contributes to
customers needing their own system programmers and also slows down
keeping up with the latest system releases (cutting into budget that
could be spent with IBM).

this period in the first part of the 80s also saw many customers buying
4300s (in some cases ordering hundreds at a time) for placing out in
departmental areas (sort of leading wave of distributed computing
tsunami).  Initially MVS was locked out of this market. The mid-range
disks were all FBA that could be deployed out in non-datacenter
environments. Eventually 3375 CKD emulation on 3370 FBA came out ... but
that didn't significantly help. Turns out these large deparmental
deployments were looking at large tens of systems per staff member
... while MVS systems were frequently measured in tens of staff members
per MVS system (if MVS was going to play in that market, it had to
significantly lower skill requirements)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#dasd

trivia: some old 4300 email from the period
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#43xx

other trivia: TYMSHARE started offering is CMS-based online computer
conferencing free to SHARE as VmSHARE in AUG1976.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Eliminating the systems programmer was Re: IBM cuts contractor billing by 15 percent (our else)

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 22 Jun 2017 15:13:36 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
edgould1...@comcast.net (Edward Gould) wrote:

>> On Jun 22, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Tom Conley  wrote:
>> 
>> On 6/22/2017 3:42 PM, Edward Gould wrote:
>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/20/ibm_contractor_crackdown/ 
>>> 
>>> IBM's contractor crackdown continues: Survivors refusing pay cut have hours 
>>> reduced
>>> Managers told to hit budgets, even if customers bleed
>> 
>> IBM continues to devalue the systems programmer.
>
>——SNIP———
>
>I think it was around 1995 when an IBM instructor (in a SERVPAC Class no less) 
>stated that IBM’s goal was to get rid of them (sysprogs).
>I challenged him about that statement. He looked men straight in the eye and 
>said that was INDEED IBM’s goal.

If the goal was to eliminate the need for highly technical people who
understand the platform and the tradeoffs, that is a futile goal for
any operating system.  If the goal is to eliminate the need for
assembler coded exits, this is more doable but customization will
always be with us.  While there can be plenty of obscurity in
assembler, how well documented are the SYS1.PARMLIB members and JES
initialization decks that control how the systems operate?  These are
just weird programming interfaces that can be every bit as cryptic.

As someone who did his last systems programming in the 1990s, I would
hope that systems maintenance and upgrade has become a lot easier (and
if IBM made the Knowledge Center and Shopz 24/365.24 available) and
that less custom code is required because of all the new concerns that
I didn't have to deal with.  The environment has become more complex
for all of the operating systems so anything that can be eliminated is
to the good.  There is enough to do so that automation of some of the
grunt work is a good thing.

Clark Morris  
>
>Ed
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