Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Are you bank robber? Yes of course, what other explanation could there be? Perhaps you also concur with that old chestnut if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. As to all the rest none of it actually answers any of my points in any concrete way. Abuse is a very wide term and what may be seen as abuse by one person may be seen as completely legitimate by another. The question was not which exact organisation decides such things, but rather whose particular political orientation will be asserting itself in such decisions, and how will they be implemented in practice. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012 00:10 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C49FF@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/25/2012 at 12:21 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: One really has to ask however what exactly In an anarchic fashion that opened us up to all sorts of network abuse. actually means It means not pulling the plug on abusers. or what the proposed solution would actually look like. ARPAnet and NSFnet, with a much larger set of nodes. Of course it's easily to refer to something like a planned transition that included the same type of oversight... without giving any hint of what it really means. But it's difficult to force people to pay attention to the hints, and it's easy for them to pretend that they weren't there. What is and who decides what is abuse, then? I would have been happy for it to continue to be NSF, but InterNIC was the obvious candidate. I see basically two possibilities, Look farther. Is that then what you are actually hoping for? Are you bank robber? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Yes, well, I'm sure Wrong! and Lol! and are you a troll (not to mention look farther and are you (a) bankrobber) are valid forms of argument in some forums such as YouTube comments and Facebook pages but there is no reasonable response to such things. I would have hoped for better here, but there you are. As far as iPhone monopoly is concerned, I am unaware of any capability for normal users to install alternatives to the Apple software. That was what was being discussed here, after all. And for a (short) while the iPhone was almost as much a smartphone monopoly as Windows still is (see below) as desktop software for PCs. The real point is what would have happened if Apple had been the Number 1 all these years. Quite strange though you would with remarkable inconsistency claim that They (iPhones) may be the most popular. That doesn't make them a monopoly. Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems. Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on desktop software. Let's see: A monopoly (from Greek monos (alone or single) + polein (to sell)) exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity (i.e. in this case PC operating systems). Windows is just the most popular as well. And as to That's what M$ wants you to believe (people who use M$ always appear to be displaying obvious prejudices which rarely makes for cogent argument). According to Wikipedia: As a result of the five-year agreement between Apple and Microsoft in 1997, it (IE) was the default browser on Mac OS and Mac OS X from 1998 until it was replaced by Apple's own Safari web browser in 2003. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Tom Marchant Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012 01:08 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:12:14 +, David Stokes wrote: Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. I remember struggling to get TCP/IP to work on OS/2 for our P/390. So much for OS/2. I bought my first IBM-comapatible computer early in 1995. It came with Windows 3.1 installed and I bought OS/2 Warp 3 with it. Installed OS/2 and quickly connected via dial-up. At about the same time, I got my first computer at work, also with OS/2 Warp 3, which I installed and connected via ethernet with no problem. I was connecting with bulletin boards and using the Compuserve network back then (remember me?) I was doing the same in the early 1980's, with my second computer. And in 1973 I was occasionally using the Merit network to connect to work, so that I could work from home. W95 was the first OS that made using the Internet more or less practical (well, for normal people). Wrong. Linux was almost uninstallable for non-specialists until sometime in the 2000s (and maybe still is) LOL! And re IE and Mac, well IE was the standard browser for many years, I seem to recall. That's what M$ wants you to believe. And what M$ tried to force upon you. Also we know what a lover Apple is of open systems. What does that have to do with this discussion? Are you a troll? Of course back then they were competing with MS. Back when? 1977? 1980? Nope. After getting their successful iPhone monopoly the gloves came off. iPhone monopoly? If you mean that you can only get an iPhone from Apple, that's about as useful as saying that Ford has an F-150 monopoly. If you mean that Apple has monopolized the smart phone market, you have it wrong. They may be the most popular. That doesn't make them a monopoly. Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems. Apple does not have a monopoly on smart phones. To the extent that they might have for a while, it was because they designed and marketed an innovative product. One that many people want. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
On 07/25/2012 06:07 PM, Tom Marchant wrote: On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:12:14 +, David Stokes wrote: Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. I remember struggling to get TCP/IP to work on OS/2 for our P/390. So much for OS/2. I bought my first IBM-comapatible computer early in 1995. It came with Windows 3.1 installed and I bought OS/2 Warp 3 with it. Installed OS/2 and quickly connected via dial-up. At about the same time, I got my first computer at work, also with OS/2 Warp 3, which I installed and connected via ethernet with no problem. I was connecting with bulletin boards and using the Compuserve network back then (remember me?) I was doing the same in the early 1980's, with my second computer. And in 1973 I was occasionally using the Merit network to connect to work, so that I could work from home. W95 was the first OS that made using the Internet more or less practical (well, for normal people). Wrong. Linux was almost uninstallable for non-specialists until sometime in the 2000s (and maybe still is) LOL! And re IE and Mac, well IE was the standard browser for many years, I seem to recall. That's what M$ wants you to believe. And what M$ tried to force upon you. Also we know what a lover Apple is of open systems. What does that have to do with this discussion? Are you a troll? Of course back then they were competing with MS. Back when? 1977? 1980? Nope. After getting their successful iPhone monopoly the gloves came off. iPhone monopoly? If you mean that you can only get an iPhone from Apple, that's about as useful as saying that Ford has an F-150 monopoly. If you mean that Apple has monopolized the smart phone market, you have it wrong. They may be the most popular. That doesn't make them a monopoly. Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems. Apple does not have a monopoly on smart phones. To the extent that they might have for a while, it was because they designed and marketed an innovative product. One that many people want. I also had relatively good experiences with OS/2, Warp 3, and Warp 4 at work and at home, and these were the first systems I was able to use at home with the Internet; but admittedly the weak part of OS/2 was that with a smaller market share than Windows, hardware driver support for vendor hardware was spotty. If you were lucky, it worked out of the box; or sometimes if you had alternative working systems you could locate and get driver updates or circumventions to make it work. But the odds were higher than with MS Windows that you might have hardware it couldn't tolerate. If those problems prevented you from getting on the Internet to find solutions you were S.O.L. -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Just what does begin extract The question was not which exact organisation decides such things, but rather whose particular political orientation will be asserting itself in such decisions, and how will they be implemented in practice. /end extract mean operationally? In another context Paul Krugman recently reminded us that conspiracy theories are dispensable, likely to be misleading, in the many situations in which stupidity provides an adequate explanation of what is going on. Whatever else the Internet may be, its evolution reflects a congeries of diverse, finally irreconcilable ideologies and business interests; and no simple dietrologia is likely to be very helpful in explaining it. These things said, Mr Stokes HAS been the target of too much ad hominem criticism. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Gilmore Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:45 AM In another context Paul Krugman recently reminded us that conspiracy theories are dispensable, likely to be misleading, in the many situations in which stupidity provides an adequate explanation of what is going on. The conspirators count on the masses' accepting the conspiracy theories and on the intelligentsia's applying Occam's Razor universally, thus making their (the conspirators) influence undetectable. Perhaps Occam was the most devious conspirator ever. Whatever else the Internet may be, its evolution reflects a congeries of diverse, finally irreconcilable ideologies and business interests; and no simple dietrologia is likely to be very helpful in explaining it. Exactly as do national and international politics. There is never any single over-reaching reason for anything. Ultimately, self-interest directs the actions of all seven billion of us, including the desire to hide our self-interest. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA t: +1.617.614.4503 * e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: www.rocketsoftware.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 13:38:14 +, Bill Fairchild wrote: Perhaps Occam was the most devious conspirator ever. Hmmm - personally Hanlon's razor has always had (more) appeal. Shane ... (fortunately my tussles with the site seemed to have spared me most of this thread) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
I also grow weary of complaints about my notionally 'exotic' vocabulary. This term once had a precise meaning. (Signage annoucing efforts at 'exotic plant control' in Hawaii's state and national parks preserve it.) Its subliterate use has converted it into a vague synonym for strange or non-standard. In fact I see no reason to censor my vocabulary, using a small proper subset of it notionally appropriate to conversations with an impaired child here. That would patronize readers of my posts to no good end. (Those who do not wish to read these posts need not do so.) John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA On 7/26/12, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de wrote: Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Damn it, if only I'd known. To the rest I've no real idea what you are talking about (not because of the exotic vocabulary). I think you've gone off at rather a tangent from the points I was making and I tend anyway to simply turn off when I hear the words conspiracy theory. However in a subtle and unexpected sort of way you are just maybe confirming what I was in fact saying. The Internet involves a vast range of different interests and agendas. That's why I suggested one should explain clearly what one means when referring to issues such as alleged abuse. That was pretty much it really, other than the rather pointless discussions about how it would all have been better with or without... BTW, thanks guys for the surprising number of more positive of-list communications. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von John Gilmore Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012 14:45 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Just what does begin extract The question was not which exact organisation decides such things, but rather whose particular political orientation will be asserting itself in such decisions, and how will they be implemented in practice. /end extract mean operationally? In another context Paul Krugman recently reminded us that conspiracy theories are dispensable, likely to be misleading, in the many situations in which stupidity provides an adequate explanation of what is going on. Whatever else the Internet may be, its evolution reflects a congeries of diverse, finally irreconcilable ideologies and business interests; and no simple dietrologia is likely to be very helpful in explaining it. These things said, Mr Stokes HAS been the target of too much ad hominem criticism. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Well, way to ignore everything actually of relevance. Good job there! I doubt anyone really cares as much as you do about how you express yourself, but I've been wrong before. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von John Gilmore Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012 19:58 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? I also grow weary of complaints about my notionally 'exotic' vocabulary. This term once had a precise meaning. (Signage annoucing efforts at 'exotic plant control' in Hawaii's state and national parks preserve it.) Its subliterate use has converted it into a vague synonym for strange or non-standard. In fact I see no reason to censor my vocabulary, using a small proper subset of it notionally appropriate to conversations with an impaired child here. That would patronize readers of my posts to no good end. (Those who do not wish to read these posts need not do so.) John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA On 7/26/12, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de wrote: Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Damn it, if only I'd known. To the rest I've no real idea what you are talking about (not because of the exotic vocabulary). I think you've gone off at rather a tangent from the points I was making and I tend anyway to simply turn off when I hear the words conspiracy theory. However in a subtle and unexpected sort of way you are just maybe confirming what I was in fact saying. The Internet involves a vast range of different interests and agendas. That's why I suggested one should explain clearly what one means when referring to issues such as alleged abuse. That was pretty much it really, other than the rather pointless discussions about how it would all have been better with or without... BTW, thanks guys for the surprising number of more positive of-list communications. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von John Gilmore Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012 14:45 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Just what does begin extract The question was not which exact organisation decides such things, but rather whose particular political orientation will be asserting itself in such decisions, and how will they be implemented in practice. /end extract mean operationally? In another context Paul Krugman recently reminded us that conspiracy theories are dispensable, likely to be misleading, in the many situations in which stupidity provides an adequate explanation of what is going on. Whatever else the Internet may be, its evolution reflects a congeries of diverse, finally irreconcilable ideologies and business interests; and no simple dietrologia is likely to be very helpful in explaining it. These things said, Mr Stokes HAS been the target of too much ad hominem criticism. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Mr. Gilmore, Please do continue to demonstrate precise language with correct usage, if for no other reason than to show the rest of us how it should be done. You set a high standard, sir. Please forgive us for not being quite able to live up to it. Tom Vacation Notice: 8/10 - 8/26/2012 Tom Puddicombe Mainframe Performance Capacity Planning CSC 31 Brookdale Rd, Meriden, CT 06450 ITIS | (860) 428-3252 | tpudd...@csc.com | www.csc.com This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. From: John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu Date: 07/26/2012 01:58 PM Subject:Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu I also grow weary of complaints about my notionally 'exotic' vocabulary. This term once had a precise meaning. (Signage annoucing efforts at 'exotic plant control' in Hawaii's state and national parks preserve it.) Its subliterate use has converted it into a vague synonym for strange or non-standard. In fact I see no reason to censor my vocabulary, using a small proper subset of it notionally appropriate to conversations with an impaired child here. That would patronize readers of my posts to no good end. (Those who do not wish to read these posts need not do so.) John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA On 7/26/12, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de wrote: Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Damn it, if only I'd known. To the rest I've no real idea what you are talking about (not because of the exotic vocabulary). I think you've gone off at rather a tangent from the points I was making and I tend anyway to simply turn off when I hear the words conspiracy theory. However in a subtle and unexpected sort of way you are just maybe confirming what I was in fact saying. The Internet involves a vast range of different interests and agendas. That's why I suggested one should explain clearly what one means when referring to issues such as alleged abuse. That was pretty much it really, other than the rather pointless discussions about how it would all have been better with or without... BTW, thanks guys for the surprising number of more positive of-list communications. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von John Gilmore Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012 14:45 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Just as I had begun to feel some sympathy for David Stokes, he managed to dissipate it at a stroke. Just what does begin extract The question was not which exact organisation decides such things, but rather whose particular political orientation will be asserting itself in such decisions, and how will they be implemented in practice. /end extract mean operationally? In another context Paul Krugman recently reminded us that conspiracy theories are dispensable, likely to be misleading, in the many situations in which stupidity provides an adequate explanation of what is going on. Whatever else the Internet may be, its evolution reflects a congeries of diverse, finally irreconcilable ideologies and business interests; and no simple dietrologia is likely to be very helpful in explaining it. These things said, Mr Stokes HAS been the target of too much ad hominem criticism. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C4CA6@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/26/2012 at 09:47 AM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: Yes, well, I'm sure Wrong! and Lol! and are you a troll (not to mention look farther and are you (a) bankrobber) Sigh! Humor is such a subjective thing. Google for sarcasm. You asked an off the wall question (Is that then what you are actually hoping for?) and I responded in kind. If you don't like leading questions then don't ask them. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In CAE1XxDGmMk8nKK=xkjinenh0qjhxaytmb_wvxi2w4vus+an...@mail.gmail.com, on 07/26/2012 at 01:58 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said: I also grow weary of complaints about my notionally 'exotic' vocabulary. This term once had a precise meaning. (Signage annoucing efforts at 'exotic plant control' in Hawaii's state and national parks preserve it.) Its subliterate use has converted it into a vague synonym for strange or non-standard. Strange as it may seem, I actually agree with you one that. We (TINW) don't need Fun With Dick and Jane. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
sto...@interchip.de (David Stokes) writes: No, that wasn't me. Not that I really dispute such facts, just the assumption that anyone could have done much better at the time (and also provided an OS that normal people could use fairly easily). -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Anne Lynn Wheeler Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juli 2012 23:10 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? sto...@interchip.de (David Stokes) writes: The virus vulnerability (and number of spambots and DOS attack bots) on the Internet is much more a function of the Operating Systems of the user nodes connected to the Internet than of the Internet itself. Much of the current problem stems from early MS Windows design philosophy, which didn't take the Internet seriously and implicitly assumed networking and data sharing would would only involve local networking where all parties had benign intent; so, MS made it easy for machines to share active content that could access and alter content on remote machines or even initiate remote programs on other machines, and put the integrity management burden on end users without providing any tools to make management possible. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#84 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#87 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#89 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? early days of desktop computing was stand-alone machines ... with some number of applications (like games) evolving that effectively took over whole machine. later small business (safe) local-area-networks also evolved for desktop machines. in both these environments, desktop machines didn't have any countermeasures for attacks or compromises. for the small business, safe, local-area-networks ... convention developed where automatic scripting (typically basic) was added to application-specific (mostly business) data files ... these files would be exchanged on the small business, safe, LAN environment ... where applications would automatically execute the embedded scripts included in the data files. at the 1996 MSDC conference at Moscone ... all the banners were proclaiming support for the internet ... however he subtheme in all the sessions were protecting your investment ... basically paradigm of automatic execution of embedded scripts in application data files would continue ... and there would be simple retargeting of the small, safe LAN support to the internet (with no additional countermeasures for attacks or compromises) I've periodically used the analogy of going out the airlock in open space w/o a spacesuit. Before he disappeared, Jim Gray had con'ed me into interviewing for position of chief security architect in Redmond. The interview went on over a period of serveral weeks but we were never able to come to agreement ... i even used the above description describing the situation (lack of countermeasures) during the interview process. a few past posts mentioning 1996 MSDC at Moscone: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#26 realtors (and GM, too!) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#63 who pioneered the WEB http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#66 What is the protocal for GMT offset in SMTP (e-mail) header http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#37 (slightly OT - Linux) Did IBM bet on the wrong OS? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010j.html#36 Favourite computer history books? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#9 The IETF is probably the single element in the global equation of technology competition than has resulted in the INTERNET http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#40 The Great Cyberheist http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011c.html#50 IBM and the Computer Revolution http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#58 IBM and the Computer Revolution http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#15 Identifying Latest zOS Fixes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#57 Are Tablets a Passing Fad? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#59 The lost art of real programming http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#141 With cloud computing back to old problems as DDos attacks http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#81 The PC industry is heading for collapse http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#93 Where are all the old tech workers? and few past posts using empty space w/o spacesuit http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#77 ZeuS attacks mobiles in bank SMS bypass scam http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010q.html#19 E-commerce and Internet Security: Why Walls
Re: AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C4765@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/24/2012 at 12:19 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: Yeah, right. Much better to restrict it to government and corporations who never abuse things. That's your proposal, not mine, TYVM. What would have been better would have been a planned transition that included the same type of oversight that ARPA and NSF had with regard to network abuse. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In 500ec8bf.5020...@acm.org, on 07/24/2012 at 11:09 AM, Joel C. Ewing jcew...@acm.org said: That certainly would have been nice, but I'm not convinced anyone at the time understood the potential scope of those problems, They understood enough to warn against it, whether or not they understood how bad it would be. much less would have been seriously motivated to have come up with a technical solution It's not a technical problem, it's a managerial and political problem. The virus vulnerability (and number of spambots and DOS attack bots) on the Internet is much more a function of the Operating Systems of the user nodes connected to the Internet than of the Internet itself. It's the predictable result of not cutting off providers that tolerate abuse and compromised systems. But does anyone think MS would have had any inclination to harden their Windows designs and reduce virus vulnerability if they were not forced to do it by problems made evident by connecting Windows systems to the Internet? Are you agreeing with me? Because forcing providers to drop compromised clients would have forced M$ to clean up its act. Even motivated by that pressure What pressure? They had no economic incentive to fix the problems. In hindsight we can now see things that should have been done better, but I doubt if much of that would have been obvious without our experience with the current Internet. It was obvious at the time, although nobody publicly predicted just how bad it would get. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In cae1xxdher2jjpx0cyzr+ku8g-6afdj7n4q13ww7g+jbe-hx...@mail.gmail.com, on 07/24/2012 at 04:09 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said: The scientific community made early and significant use of the DARPA predecessor of today's Internet, and almost none of the problems that afflict us today emerged during that period. There was no money to be made by chicanery, and little of it therefore occurred. The reason that there was no money to be made was that ARPA and later NSF would cut you off at the knees if you tried. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
That's your proposal, not mine, TYVM You're welcome. My proposal being quite ironically intended, of course. One really has to ask however what exactly In an anarchic fashion that opened us up to all sorts of network abuse. actually means or what the proposed solution would actually look like. Of course it's easily to refer to something like a planned transition that included the same type of oversight... without giving any hint of what it really means. What is and who decides what is abuse, then? And who is going to be in charge of not allowing it? And what exactly would this look like? I see basically two possibilities, not allowing unauthorized people onto the Net at all (now who might they be?) or expanding the technology to enable authorities to control and censor anything they didn't like and only allow access to government/corporate authorized services. Well of course, there have been and still are plenty of attempts to do exactly that. All of them come down to restricting normal people's access with extended government and/or corporate control. Which would of course lead to exactly the second part of my proposal. Is that then what you are actually hoping for? . And whether that would really mean maybe without the epidemics of, e.g., spam, virus attacks, DOS attacks. is highly dubious. All attempts to create security in computer systems seem to be doomed as clever people find ways around them. The Internet is more like a living organism that wants to live and expand than a traditional piece of technology. As far as counterfactuals go though, I'm actually pretty sure that with planned transition and oversight we wouldn't have an Internet at all, just some more pipes for advertising, entertainment and (mis)information. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juli 2012 23:30 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C4765@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/24/2012 at 12:19 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: Yeah, right. Much better to restrict it to government and corporations who never abuse things. That's your proposal, not mine, TYVM. What would have been better would have been a planned transition that included the same type of oversight that ARPA and NSF had with regard to network abuse. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
No. Starting ten years lat(t)er is your concept, not mine Well no, not mine. I wasn't responding to you here. I like your fantasy view of how things might have been, though. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juli 2012 23:51 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C4863@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/24/2012 at 08:00 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: In other words, if everything had happened ten years later we would now be around the same point we were 10 years ago. No. Starting ten years latter is your concept, not mine. No one could have foreseen the problems the Internet would bring until there was an Internet. The Internet started with the ARPAnet-MILNET split. Not only could people forsee the problems of uncontrolled commercialization, they *did* forsee those problems and their warnings were ignored. Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 4:51 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? snip Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. What, no mention of CP/M-86? I don't think that MP/M ever had a x86 version. I do remember running Pick on my XT clone. Now that was a weird beastie. And you totally ignored things like the Amiga. I loved what I saw of that software. I wish now that my boss at the time hadn't convinced me to go with an XT clone. Also IBM Instruments(?) had a Motorola 68000 based system. And the joys of the ATT 3B series of machines cannot be overstated. VBG Man, I loved that era of many different choices. Now, it is basically Wintel. Windows is so entrenched that, IMO, it will only be shaken loose by a major change in paradim. Perhaps a super tablet, which are dominated today by Android and iOS. I don't know about the new Windows 8 tablets. If they run like Windows PCs, people are not going to like them. They'll be overpriced, under performing (bloat), and the software will cost too much. The Andoid SDK is totally cost free. So anybody with a PC can develop Android code. I cannot imagine MS giving away their SDK. Unless they are clever and begin with a zero cost SDK, then start increasing the price if Windows on tablets become a majority. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com (McKown, John) writes: What, no mention of CP/M-86? I don't think that MP/M ever had a x86 version. I do remember running Pick on my XT clone. Now that was a weird beastie. And you totally ignored things like the Amiga. I loved what I saw of that software. I wish now that my boss at the time hadn't convinced me to go with an XT clone. before windows there was ms-dos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS before ms-dos there was seattle computer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Computer_Products/a before seattle computer there was cp/m http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M/a and before cp/m, kildall worked on cp/67 (cms) at npg (gone 404, but lives on at the wayback machine) http://web.archive.org/web/20071011100440/http://www.khet.net/gmc/docs/museum/en_cpmName.html/a cp67 not just npg ... but also various other places ... also gone 404 but lives on at the wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20090117083033/http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/list-archive/0409/8362.shtml as undergraduate in the 60s, I was doing lots of operating system stuff and even got requests from vendor to do certain things. I didn't learn about those guys until a long time later ... but in retrospect, some of the change requests were of the nature that they may have originated from such organizations. -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
I can certainly see some value in remotely shutting down PCs, assuming one can be absolutely certain that it is a legitimate operation. Of course, whoever has this power probably won't stop there. And then again how will one get back on the Net? I see a host of other problems with such attempts. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Anne Lynn Wheeler Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. Juli 2012 15:54 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? sto...@interchip.de (David Stokes) writes: is highly dubious. All attempts to create security in computer systems seem to be doomed as clever people find ways around them. The Internet is more like a living organism that wants to live and expand than a traditional piece of technology. As far as counterfactuals go though, I'm actually pretty sure that with planned transition and oversight we wouldn't have an Internet at all, just some more pipes for advertising, entertainment and (mis)information. in the 90s, the major (internet) exploit was from buffer overflow vulnerabilities related to C-language programming convention for handling strings. The vm/370 tcp/ip product implementation was done in vs/pascal (earlier in thread, I mentioned having done rfc1044 support for the product, getting possibly 500 times improvement in the bytes moved per instruction executed) ... and had none of the buffer overflow vulnerabilities found in c-language implementations. Multics operating system was implementated in PLI and old security vulnerability assessment found no buffer overflow vulnerabilities found in C-language implementations. lots of past posts mentioning buffer overflow vulnerability http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#overflow IBM research did a study/paper/presentation Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics Security Evaluation (one of the references was no buffer overflow vulnerabilities) http://www.acsac.org/2002/papers/classic-multics.pdf security evaluation paper http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/history/karg74.pdf About a decade ago, the exploits had shifted to approx. 1/3rd buffer overflow vulnerability (related to c-language features), 1/3rd automatic scripting vulnerability (previously mentioned from 1996 Moscone MSDC), and 1/3rd various forms of social engineering (enticing individuals to executing malware applications which would install exploit code into their machines). Earlier in the thread, I also mentioned in the 90s, there was EU FINREAD standard that was countermeasure for malware compromised internet-connected PCs (but various unfortunate circumstances resulted in abandoning the effort). Part of the issue is that there is a fundamental different security paradigm for desktop machines that operate stand-alone and/or on small, safe networks and require no security countermeasures (especially those with heritage of applications, like games, that have convention of taking over the machine) ... and internet appliances ... nearly diamtetrically opposing security requirements (my early reference to going out into open space w/o spacesuit). old post of some work I did on CVE database (2623 reported vulnerability descriptions) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#43 I was trying to categorize CVE vulnerabilityexploit reports. I talked to the CVE people about suggestion for requiring more structure in the reports ... but at the time, their response was they were lucky to even get the unstructured descriptions. earlier posts in this thread: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#84 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#87 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#89 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#93 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#94 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
John, I agree, there seems to be no sense of responsibility. Scott ford www.identityforge.com On Jul 24, 2012, at 4:09 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote: The scientific community made early and significant use of the DARPA predecessor of today's Internet, and almost none of the problems that afflict us today emerged during that period. There was no money to be made by chicanery, and little of it therefore occurred. Things are now very different. The availability of millions of new Internet dupes has spawned whole new classes of crime and greatly facilitated others that are much older than it is. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com (McKown, John) writes: What, no mention of CP/M-86? I don't think that MP/M ever had a x86 version. I do remember running Pick on my XT clone. Now that was a weird beastie. And you totally ignored things like the Amiga. I loved what I saw of that software. I wish now that my boss at the time hadn't convinced me to go with an XT clone. re: http:/www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#98 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? other folklore trivia from silicon valley ... long ago and far away at some silicon valley watering hole gathering of current former people working on vm370 ... talking to some vm370 sysprog that had worked at another vendor ... described how he had done the mp/m implementation. for another article drifing back to the original post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Obama Was Right: The Government Invented the Internet; Don't believe the outrageous conservative claim that every tech innovation came from private enterprise. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/07/who_invented_the_internet_the_outrageous_conservative_claim_that_every_tech_innovation_came_from_private_enterprise_.html above also references: Brief History of the Internet http://www.internetsociety.org/internet/internet-51/history-internet/brief-history-internet History of the Internet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet a similar discussion played out in a.f.c. in the late 90s ... part of the posts in that discussion archived here http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm as an aside ... during the 90s, the RFC (internet standards) editor (Jon Postel) ... use to let me do part of the updates for the periodic STD1 other posts in this thread: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#84 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#87 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#89 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#93 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#94 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#97 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. Quite funny you'd say that. Now I was also around in those times. I remember struggling to get TCP/IP to work on OS/2 for our P/390. So much for OS/2. I was connecting with bulletin boards and using the Compuserve network back then (remember me?) W95 was the first OS that made using the Internet more or less practical (well, for normal people). Linux was almost uninstallable for non-specialists until sometime in the 2000s (and maybe still is) and would probably never have existed in its present form without the Internet as we know it (ie, without all that oversight). And re IE and Mac, well IE was the standard browser for many years, I seem to recall. Also we know what a lover Apple is of open systems. Of course back then they were competing with MS. After getting their successful iPhone monopoly the gloves came off. Great world it would be if you could only access the Internet from your PC via Apple authorized applications. Of course it's just so easy to claim all this stuff and assert eg that security issues were obvious at the time (amongst the computer elite, one supposes). I remember when you could get into supervisor state with the SPIE macro, and the ages it took IBM to integrate RACF fully with the rest of the OS. Experience comes slowly and mostly after the issues have become very obvious, I would tend to say. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Im Auftrag von Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juli 2012 23:51 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C4863@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/24/2012 at 08:00 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: In other words, if everything had happened ten years later we would now be around the same point we were 10 years ago. No. Starting ten years latter is your concept, not mine. No one could have foreseen the problems the Internet would bring until there was an Internet. The Internet started with the ARPAnet-MILNET split. Not only could people forsee the problems of uncontrolled commercialization, they *did* forsee those problems and their warnings were ignored. Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
l...@garlic.com (Anne Lynn Wheeler) writes: cp67 not just npg ... but also various other places ... also gone 404 but lives on at the wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20090117083033/http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/list-archive/0409/8362.shtml re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#98 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? majority of the internal network was vm370 ... since MVS/JES2 nodes had to be relegated to mostly boundary nodes ... JES2 was unable to define the complete network and had unpleasant characteristic of discarding traffic if the origin /or destination node wasn't in its local table. Also JES2 had periodic characteristic of crashing MVS ... when it received traffic that originated at JES2 at didn't release level (in fact, there was large library of VNET NJI drivers to talk to JES2 that specifically reformate traffic originating at other JES2 nodes to try and prevent MVS systems from crashing). also mentioned in this recent post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? this old post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#18 Unbelievable references: On p. 13 of The REXX Language by M.F. Cowlishaw, there's a reference to how the development was done. IBM has an internal network, known as VNET, that links over 1600 mainframe computers in 45 countries. That book is dated 1985. ... but 1600 count would have been when book was written before actual publication date. this old post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#26 DEC eNet: was Vnet : Unbelievable. has this statistic BITNET435 ARPAnet 1155 CSnet 104 (excluding ARPAnet overlap) VNET 1650 EasyNet 4200 UUCP 6000 USENET 1150 (excluding UUCP nodes) ... snip ... also from sometime in 1985 (up from 1000 nodes in 1983). But there are also references by end of 1985 there was 2000 nodes on the internal network ... referenced in this old email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006t.html#email850625 However, the arpanet/internet was rapidly increasing and sometime either late '85 or early '86 passed the internal network in number of network nodes. post containing the 25Jun85 email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006t.html#50 The Future of CPUs: What's After Multi-Core? references 435 BITNET nodes on 18Jan1985, 1155 arpanet nodes 22Jan1985 and by 1988 there were 2691 nodes (BITNET/NETNORTH/EARN). Big boost for arpanet/internet growth was switch-over to internetworking protocol on 1jan1983 (and off the IMP-based arpanet ... approx. only 100 IMPs and 255 hosts on 1jan1983). The other factor in internet exceeding size of internal network ... was the communication group trying to preserve its dumb terminal oriented paradigm ... with the internal network being restricted to mainframe hosts ... while the internet nodes were starting to include a growing number of workstation and PC nodes. there were numerous efforts by communication group to protect their dumb terminal paradigm and install base ... also discussed http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:12:14 +, David Stokes wrote: Otoh, without Windows, who really would have been using the Internet Pretty much everybody who is now. Without windows they'd be running, e.g., OS/2, MacOS, Linux. I remember struggling to get TCP/IP to work on OS/2 for our P/390. So much for OS/2. I bought my first IBM-comapatible computer early in 1995. It came with Windows 3.1 installed and I bought OS/2 Warp 3 with it. Installed OS/2 and quickly connected via dial-up. At about the same time, I got my first computer at work, also with OS/2 Warp 3, which I installed and connected via ethernet with no problem. I was connecting with bulletin boards and using the Compuserve network back then (remember me?) I was doing the same in the early 1980's, with my second computer. And in 1973 I was occasionally using the Merit network to connect to work, so that I could work from home. W95 was the first OS that made using the Internet more or less practical (well, for normal people). Wrong. Linux was almost uninstallable for non-specialists until sometime in the 2000s (and maybe still is) LOL! And re IE and Mac, well IE was the standard browser for many years, I seem to recall. That's what M$ wants you to believe. And what M$ tried to force upon you. Also we know what a lover Apple is of open systems. What does that have to do with this discussion? Are you a troll? Of course back then they were competing with MS. Back when? 1977? 1980? Nope. After getting their successful iPhone monopoly the gloves came off. iPhone monopoly? If you mean that you can only get an iPhone from Apple, that's about as useful as saying that Ford has an F-150 monopoly. If you mean that Apple has monopolized the smart phone market, you have it wrong. They may be the most popular. That doesn't make them a monopoly. Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems. Apple does not have a monopoly on smart phones. To the extent that they might have for a while, it was because they designed and marketed an innovative product. One that many people want. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C4A24@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/25/2012 at 12:25 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: No. Starting ten years lat(t)er is your concept, not mine Well no, not mine. I wasn't responding to you here. Well, you were responding to Joel C. Ewing who in turn was responding to me, but I don't see anything in his text remotely close to your In other words, if everything had happened ten years later we would now be around the same point we were 10 years ago. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In E36DC330434FBA4ABA45590D5370A88B076C49FF@INTERCHIP-SBS.interchip.local, on 07/25/2012 at 12:21 PM, David Stokes sto...@interchip.de said: One really has to ask however what exactly In an anarchic fashion that opened us up to all sorts of network abuse. actually means It means not pulling the plug on abusers. or what the proposed solution would actually look like. ARPAnet and NSFnet, with a much larger set of nodes. Of course it's easily to refer to something like a planned transition that included the same type of oversight... without giving any hint of what it really means. But it's difficult to force people to pay attention to the hints, and it's easy for them to pretend that they weren't there. What is and who decides what is abuse, then? I would have been happy for it to continue to be NSF, but InterNIC was the obvious candidate. I see basically two possibilities, Look farther. Is that then what you are actually hoping for? Are you bank robber? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
In a6b9336cdb62bb46b9f8708e686a7ea0115baa1...@nrhmms8p02.uicnrh.dom, on 07/25/2012 at 08:02 AM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com said: What, no mention of CP/M-86? It never had enough market share; DR-DOS would be more likely. And you totally ignored things like the Amiga. Did either Amiga or Atari have enough market share to count? I also ignored NeXT, which might have caught on. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
The Cookoo's Egg by Cliff Stoll Google it... PDF Damn good read. Jay Campbell IBM OS Support Section -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Anne Lynn Wheeler Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:48 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? sbire...@rocketsoftware.com (Steve Bireley) writes: About 10 years ago I was in a meeting with Vint Cerf and couple of others executive from Worldcom. One of our sales guys made a joke about Al Gore inventing the Internet. Instead of starting the meeting, Vint invited us to his office to show us pictures of him with Al Gore (and a bunch of other famous people), and gave us a short history lesson of the Internet and the large role Al Gore played in making the Internet available to the public instead of keeping it for the military and academia. Though Al's role was only legislative, I found it interesting that Vint Cerf gave him so much credit. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? as referenced upthread and old email, the NSFNET backbone funding was coming out of funding for the supercomputing efforts to promote better USA global computing competitiveness ... originally I was going to get $20m ... but then the NSF budget got cut and corporate politics prevented me from doing anything directly (and the communication group was spreading mis-information about how SNA would apply to NSFNET backbone). some other articles starting to appear ... like Obama Was Right: The Government Invented the Internet; Don't believe the outrageous conservative claim that every tech innovation came from private enterprise. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/07/who_invented_the_internet_the_outrageous_conservative_claim_that_every_tech_innovation_came_from_private_enterprise_.html and No credit for Uncle Sam in creating Net? Vint Cerf disagrees http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57479781-93/no-credit-for-uncle-sam-in-creating-net-vint-cerf-disagrees/ one of the comments in the article: You might have ended up with OSI. Many engineers considered this to be an overly complex design and it was not very much implemented. ... snip ... I would suggest that one of the contributing factors for internet breaking free for commercial use ... was federal government started to mandate OSI (GOSIP) and the elimination of internet/tcpip. at interop88, lots of booths were showing OSI products for federal gov. federal gov. contractor customers. misc. past posts mentioning interop88 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#88 the other issue was there were a lot of commercial interests contributing (unfunded) resources to the NSFNET backbone with motivation to enhance environment for the development of the next generation bandwith hungry applications ... also mentioned upthread http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? browsers and html had started to appear ... and companies were being formed to produce commercial versions. mentioned in original post, GML evolution to SGML then HTML, as well as first webserver (on slac's vm370 system) outside europe one of the early browsers was done at the supercomputer appication datacenter/univ (part of the NSF supercomputer effort NSFNET backbone). people left and formed a startup in silicon valley. for other trivia ... we are doing ha/cmp product along with cluster scaleup ... old post with reference to early jan1992 meeting in ellison's conference room http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 old cluster scaleup related email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#medusa possibly within hrs of the last email in above (end Jan1992), the scaleup is transferred we are told we can't work on anything with more than four processors. within a couple weeks it is announced as supercomputer ... press item from 17Feb1992 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#6000clusters1 we then decide to leave. now two of the other people in the early jan1992 meeting, also leave and join small client/server startup responsible for something called commerce server; we get called in to consult because they want to do payment transactions on their server; the startup had also invented technology called SSL, the result is now frequently called electronic commerce. The startup is also using a corporate name that was used at the supercomputer application datacenter/univ ... the univ objects. One of the major router vendors in silicon valley has an unused trademarked name that is donated for the startups new name. -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
shmuel+...@patriot.net (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.) writes: There's an error in that article and in the RSCS article; RSCS uses connection-oriented protocols, not connectionless protocols. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#84 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#87 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#89 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? another part of the issue was that RSCS had native vnet drivers and then NJI (hasp/jes2) drivers. During period that BITNET was growing in the mid-80s, they stopped shipping the native vnet drivers ... leaving only the NJI drivers ... although the native vnet drivers continued to be used on the internal network because they were much more efficient ... at least up until the change-over of the internal network to SNA in the late 80s. arpanet used IMPs for network nodes that did packet-based communication ... but the connected hosts did host-to-host end-to-end connection protocol. In the a.f.c. thread it was pointed out that even by 1975, it was recognized that it wasn't scaling. A comparison from the period was post-office analogy ... to get something from new york city to fairbanks alaska ... required that all the post offices between NYC and fairbanks and alaska to be up and operational simultaneously ... which wasn't a requirement for RSCS. RSCS traffic would eventually get from NYC to fairbanks ... even if there was only intermediate connectivity between the intermediate nodes (including if there was *never* full end-to-end connectivity). For lots of reasons, the internal network was larger than the arpanet/internet from just about the beginning until either late '85 or early '86 ... the internet growth and passing internal network primarily because of the switch-over to internetworking protocol on 1jan1983. At the time of the 1983 switch-over there were approximately 100 IMP nodes and possibly 255 hosts ... while the internal network was in the process of passing 1000 misc. past posts mentioning internal network http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet misc. past posts mentioning bitnet (/or earn) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet in the late 80s there was lot of mis-information from the communication group (not only about its applicability to the nsfnet backbone) involved in justification for converting internal network to sna http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006x.html#email870302 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#email870306 even though by that time, it would have been much more efficient and cost-effective to have converted rscs drivers to tcp/ip (in much the same way that was done for bitnet-II). the vm370 tcp/ip product was available ... even tho there was some performance issues (limited to about 44kbytes/sec using nearly whole 3090 processor) ... but I would be shortly be doing the changes to support rfc1044 ... and in some tuning tests at cray research got channel thruput between 4341 and cray using only modest amount of 4341 processor (possibly 500 times improvement in bytes moved per instruction executed) ... some past posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#1044 note ... later the vm370 tcp/ip product was ported to mvs by adding simulation for some of the vm370 functions. piece of recent post from a.f.c. about the requirement for doing NJI drivers in RSCS: Internally between mostly campus hasp systems, they were running some support that came from triangle university (TUCC in cols 68-71 source code). The implementation was intertwined with standard HASP support and not cleanly layered ... and node definitions were done by taking empty entries in the HASP psuedo-device table (255 entry table used for hasp for psuedo unit-record devices ... typical HASP installation might have 60-80 entries in use ... so the TUCC code could define up to 170-190 network nodes). The VNET code had to be cleanly layered with gateway-like functionality and support both native VNET drivers as well as gateway drivers that would talk to HASP/JES2. As the HASP/JES2 evolved, it became even more convoluted ... since the HASP/JES2 network support code was so intertwined with rest of its operations ... traffice between two different HASP/JES2 nodes at different releases could result in HASP/JES2 crash bringing down the whole operating system. Internally, the VNET gateway function had to be expanded so that there were large library of HASP/JES2 drivers ... with the specific driver started that corresponded to the HASP/JES2 level at the other end of the link. It became the responsibilty of the VNET HASP/JES2 drivers to convert traffic into a canonical form and then translate into the specific form required by the HASP
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
sto...@interchip.de (David Stokes) writes: The virus vulnerability (and number of spambots and DOS attack bots) on the Internet is much more a function of the Operating Systems of the user nodes connected to the Internet than of the Internet itself. Much of the current problem stems from early MS Windows design philosophy, which didn't take the Internet seriously and implicitly assumed networking and data sharing would would only involve local networking where all parties had benign intent; so, MS made it easy for machines to share active content that could access and alter content on remote machines or even initiate remote programs on other machines, and put the integrity management burden on end users without providing any tools to make management possible. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#84 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#87 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#89 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? early days of desktop computing was stand-alone machines ... with some number of applications (like games) evolving that effectively took over whole machine. later small business (safe) local-area-networks also evolved for desktop machines. in both these environments, desktop machines didn't have any countermeasures for attacks or compromises. for the small business, safe, local-area-networks ... convention developed where automatic scripting (typically basic) was added to application-specific (mostly business) data files ... these files would be exchanged on the small business, safe, LAN environment ... where applications would automatically execute the embedded scripts included in the data files. at the 1996 MSDC conference at Moscone ... all the banners were proclaiming support for the internet ... however he subtheme in all the sessions were protecting your investment ... basically paradigm of automatic execution of embedded scripts in application data files would continue ... and there would be simple retargeting of the small, safe LAN support to the internet (with no additional countermeasures for attacks or compromises) I've periodically used the analogy of going out the airlock in open space w/o a spacesuit. Before he disappeared, Jim Gray had con'ed me into interviewing for position of chief security architect in Redmond. The interview went on over a period of serveral weeks but we were never able to come to agreement ... i even used the above description describing the situation (lack of countermeasures) during the interview process. a few past posts mentioning 1996 MSDC at Moscone: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#26 realtors (and GM, too!) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#63 who pioneered the WEB http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#66 What is the protocal for GMT offset in SMTP (e-mail) header http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#37 (slightly OT - Linux) Did IBM bet on the wrong OS? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010j.html#36 Favourite computer history books? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#9 The IETF is probably the single element in the global equation of technology competition than has resulted in the INTERNET http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#40 The Great Cyberheist http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011c.html#50 IBM and the Computer Revolution http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#58 IBM and the Computer Revolution http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#15 Identifying Latest zOS Fixes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#57 Are Tablets a Passing Fad? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#59 The lost art of real programming http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#141 With cloud computing back to old problems as DDos attacks http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#81 The PC industry is heading for collapse http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#93 Where are all the old tech workers? and few past posts using empty space w/o spacesuit http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#77 ZeuS attacks mobiles in bank SMS bypass scam http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010q.html#19 E-commerce and Internet Security: Why Walls Don't Work http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#15 Identifying Latest zOS Fixes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#59 The lost art of real programming http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#141 With cloud computing back to old problems as DDos attacks http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#93 Where are all the old tech workers? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#47 You Don't Need a Cyber Attack to Take Down The North American Power Grid http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#18 Zeus/SpyEye 'Automatic Transfer' Module
Re: AW: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
IBM is a large corporation. Different factions have been captivated by marketing pressures since the beginning. The RD side has always been more forth coming. For a number of years IBM-Main was accessible via INFO-Access under hardware. It was a mirror of BAMA.UA.EDU and for me was great way to keep all the stuff tied together on a 3270/AT. Then one day it quit! No announcement or anything just DOA. We had SE's back then and I asked him what was the problem. Lots of gibberish about the Almaden server being overloaded and nobody knew listserv...yada, yada, yada. Anyway, lots of hops and bops. But we managed to keep it afloat as upgrades to switches, routers and servers made it easier protect and faster to distribute. There have been pretty good arguments about abandoning IBM-main for years. It still may happen, but for know we carry on as best we can. In a message dated 7/24/2012 7:19:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, sto...@interchip.de writes: Maybe IBM would host IBM-MAIN. (IBM tried their best not to join the Internet, after all). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
jwgli...@gmail.com (John Gilmore) writes: The scientific community made early and significant use of the DARPA predecessor of today's Internet, and almost none of the problems that afflict us today emerged during that period. There was no money to be made by chicanery, and little of it therefore occurred. Things are now very different. The availability of millions of new Internet dupes has spawned whole new classes of crime and greatly facilitated others that are much older than it is. note in the 95/96 time-frame industry presentations by online dialup consumer banking were explaining move to the internet ... in large part motivated by the large consumer support costs related to serial-port dialup modems (able to offload to ISPs). at the same time the commercial dialup banking/cash-management operations were saying that they would never move to the internet ... for a long list of vulnerabilities. late 90s, EU had FINREAD standard as countermeasure to a long list of vulnerabilities related to internet-connected desktops ... including compromised desktops. some number of vendors were pushing hardware (chip) tokens for authentication for many kinds of fraud. approx. start of the century, one of the plastic magstripe payment cards included chip in the card and provided free give-away of serial-port card readers. The enormous customer support costs associated with serial-port card readers resulted in rapidly spreading opinion in the industry that hardware tokens weren't practical in consumer market. As a result there was pullback/abandoning the consumer oriented chipcard-based programs in the industry ... including the EU FINREAD effort. We participated in after action review of the situation with some of the people in redmond ... identifying the problem was with serial-port devices ... not the chipcards. Apparently in few short years between online dial-up banking moving to internet and the give-away serial-port cardreaders, the institutional knowledge about the enormous serial-port cunsumer support costs evaporated (which also was major motivation for USB development). Along the way, the online dialup commercial banking/cash-management did move to the internet ... and the businesses have experienced all the exploits and vulnerabilities previously predicated. A number of times in the past decade, it has been recommended that businesses have a dedicated PC for online banking that is *NEVER* used for any other purpose (semi reverting to the days of online dialup banking) There has recently been a number of legal actions regarding liability for such exploits ... some number of recent posts in linkedin financial fraud on the subject: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#18 Zeus/SpyEye 'Automatic Transfer' Module Masks Online Banking Theft http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#32 Zeus/SpyEye 'Automatic Transfer' Module Masks Online Banking Theft http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#0 Federal appeal court raps bank over shoddy online security http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#8 Federal appeal court raps bank over shoddy online security http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#59 Bank Sues Customer Over ACH/Wire Fraud http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#72 Bank Sues Customer Over ACH/Wire Fraud http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#73 Is it time to consider a stand-alone PC for online banking? past posts in this thread: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#83 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#84 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#87 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#88 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#89 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#90 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#93 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB187239639064304577539063008406518.html WSJ mangles history to argue government didn't launch the Internet http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/ As We May Think - Vannevar Bush http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/3881/ co-worker from the IBM science center: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks In 1976, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to DARPA, where Henricks described his innovations to the principal scientist, Dr. Vinton P. Cerf. From that point on, Vint and other DARPA scientists adopted Hendricks -- connectionless approach. The result developed into the Internet as we know it today. ... snip ... note, GML was (also) invented at the IBM science center in 1969 and decade later morphs into ISO standard SGML ... and then after another decade morphs into HTML http://infomesh.net/html/history/early first webserver outside europe is on slac's vm370 service: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml virtual machines also invented at the IBM science center in the 60s past posts mentioning IBM science center http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech past posts mentioning IBM internal network http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet old email mentioning IBM internal network http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#vnet past posts mentioning (mainframe) bitnet/earn network (ibm-main mailing list originated on bitnet in the 80s) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet past posts mentioning arpanet/internet http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internet past posts mentioning GML/SGML http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml TCP/IP is the technology basis for the modern internet, NSFNET backbone was the operational basis for the modern internet, and CIX was the business basis for the modern internet; misc. old email about NSFNET backbone: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet past posts mentioning nsfnet backbone http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#nsfnet -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
you mean it wasn't Al Gore? Mitch -Original Message- From: Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com To: IBM-MAIN IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 12:47 pm Subject: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? ttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB187239639064304577539063008406518.html WSJ mangles history to argue government didn't launch the Internet ttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/ s We May Think - Vannevar Bush ttp://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/3881/ co-worker from the IBM science center: ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks In 1976, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to DARPA, here Henricks described his innovations to the principal scientist, r. Vinton P. Cerf. From that point on, Vint and other DARPA cientists adopted Hendricks -- connectionless approach. The result eveloped into the Internet as we know it today. ... snip ... note, GML was (also) invented at the IBM science center in 1969 and decade ater morphs into ISO standard SGML ... and then after another decade morphs nto TML ttp://infomesh.net/html/history/early first webserver outside europe is on slac's vm370 service: ttp://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml virtual machines also invented at the IBM science center in the 60s past posts mentioning IBM science center ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech ast posts mentioning IBM internal network ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet ld email mentioning IBM internal network ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#vnet ast posts mentioning (mainframe) bitnet/earn network (ibm-main mailing ist originated on bitnet in the 80s) ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet ast posts mentioning arpanet/internet ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internet ast posts mentioning GML/SGML ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml TCP/IP is the technology basis for the modern internet, NSFNET ackbone was the operational basis for the modern internet, and CIX as the business basis for the modern internet; misc. old email about SFNET backbone: ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet ast posts mentioning nsfnet backbone ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#nsfnet -- irtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- or IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, end email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
_http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18928858_ (http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18928858) In a message dated 7/23/2012 2:47:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, l...@garlic.com writes: WSJ mangles history to argue government didn't launch the Internet -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
About 10 years ago I was in a meeting with Vint Cerf and couple of others executive from Worldcom. One of our sales guys made a joke about Al Gore inventing the Internet. Instead of starting the meeting, Vint invited us to his office to show us pictures of him with Al Gore (and a bunch of other famous people), and gave us a short history lesson of the Internet and the large role Al Gore played in making the Internet available to the public instead of keeping it for the military and academia. Though Al's role was only legislative, I found it interesting that Vint Cerf gave him so much credit. Steve Bireley Managing Director Research and Development Rocket Software 70 Main St., Suite 51 • Warrenton, VA 20186 • USA Tel: +1.404.364.1731 • Mobile: +1.571.216.3530 Email: sbire...@rocketsoftware.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mitch Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:57 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? you mean it wasn't Al Gore? Mitch -Original Message- From: Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com To: IBM-MAIN IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 12:47 pm Subject: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? ttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB187239639064304577539063008406518.html WSJ mangles history to argue government didn't launch the Internet ttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/ s We May Think - Vannevar Bush ttp://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/3881/ co-worker from the IBM science center: ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks In 1976, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to DARPA, here Henricks described his innovations to the principal scientist, r. Vinton P. Cerf. From that point on, Vint and other DARPA cientists adopted Hendricks -- connectionless approach. The result eveloped into the Internet as we know it today. ... snip ... note, GML was (also) invented at the IBM science center in 1969 and decade ater morphs into ISO standard SGML ... and then after another decade morphs nto TML ttp://infomesh.net/html/history/early first webserver outside europe is on slac's vm370 service: ttp://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml virtual machines also invented at the IBM science center in the 60s past posts mentioning IBM science center ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech ast posts mentioning IBM internal network ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet ld email mentioning IBM internal network ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#vnet ast posts mentioning (mainframe) bitnet/earn network (ibm-main mailing ist originated on bitnet in the 80s) ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet ast posts mentioning arpanet/internet ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internet ast posts mentioning GML/SGML ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml TCP/IP is the technology basis for the modern internet, NSFNET ackbone was the operational basis for the modern internet, and CIX as the business basis for the modern internet; misc. old email about SFNET backbone: ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet ast posts mentioning nsfnet backbone ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#nsfnet -- irtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- or IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, end email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:57:16 -0400, Mitch wrote: you mean it wasn't Al Gore? No, he just eponymously supplied some of the algorithms. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet?
How many of the web sites you visit on a daily basis are something other than a university or a government research facility? How many of the people that you regularly communicate with on the Internet are not at one of those facilities, and for that matter, are you in the set of people not at those facilities? That's how much of the Internet would be missing (99.99% +) if legislation in 1992 had not opened up this government military/research network to commercial use. The government ARPA-net became the Internet we know today because Al Gore recognized its potential and pushed legislation, first in 1988 to help link universities and libraries, and additional legislation in 1992 which opened it to commercial traffic. Probably someone else would have eventually done so if he hadn't, but maybe not for another decade or more; or maybe enough of Congress would have been bought by a major TelCom for them to have been granted an exclusive monopoly on the Internet, totally changing its character. No one else in Congress was pushing for expanded information access at the time. That's why Vint Cerf gives Al Gore credit. Joel C. Ewing On 07/23/2012 04:11 PM, Steve Bireley wrote: About 10 years ago I was in a meeting with Vint Cerf and couple of others executive from Worldcom. One of our sales guys made a joke about Al Gore inventing the Internet. Instead of starting the meeting, Vint invited us to his office to show us pictures of him with Al Gore (and a bunch of other famous people), and gave us a short history lesson of the Internet and the large role Al Gore played in making the Internet available to the public instead of keeping it for the military and academia. Though Al's role was only legislative, I found it interesting that Vint Cerf gave him so much credit. Steve Bireley Managing Director Research and Development Rocket Software 70 Main St., Suite 51 • Warrenton, VA 20186 • USA Tel: +1.404.364.1731 • Mobile: +1.571.216.3530 Email: sbire...@rocketsoftware.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mitch Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:57 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? you mean it wasn't Al Gore? Mitch -Original Message- From: Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com To: IBM-MAIN IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 12:47 pm Subject: Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? ttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB187239639064304577539063008406518.html WSJ mangles history to argue government didn't launch the Internet ttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/ s We May Think - Vannevar Bush ttp://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/3881/ co-worker from the IBM science center: ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks In 1976, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to DARPA, here Henricks described his innovations to the principal scientist, r. Vinton P. Cerf. From that point on, Vint and other DARPA cientists adopted Hendricks -- connectionless approach. The result eveloped into the Internet as we know it today. ... snip ... note, GML was (also) invented at the IBM science center in 1969 and decade ater morphs into ISO standard SGML ... and then after another decade morphs nto TML ttp://infomesh.net/html/history/early first webserver outside europe is on slac's vm370 service: ttp://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml virtual machines also invented at the IBM science center in the 60s past posts mentioning IBM science center ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech ast posts mentioning IBM internal network ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet ld email mentioning IBM internal network ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#vnet ast posts mentioning (mainframe) bitnet/earn network (ibm-main mailing ist originated on bitnet in the 80s) ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet ast posts mentioning arpanet/internet ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internet ast posts mentioning GML/SGML ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml TCP/IP is the technology basis for the modern internet, NSFNET ackbone was the operational basis for the modern internet, and CIX as the business basis for the modern internet; misc. old email about SFNET backbone: ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet ast posts mentioning nsfnet backbone ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#nsfnet -- irtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- ... -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org
