Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Developement of the problematic engine. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/volkswagen-diesel-emissions/ -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/24/china-executes-2-people-o_n_368657. html In a message dated 9/22/2015 12:46:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, mike.a.sch...@gmail.com writes: Somebody (the plant manager) gets some serious jail time for knowingly shipping contaminated peanuts that ended up killing 9 people (although -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Somebody (the plant manager) gets some serious jail time for knowingly shipping contaminated peanuts that ended up killing 9 people (although he wasn't charged with negligent homicide (yet)). http://www.stltoday.com/news/national/former-peanut-exec-gets-years-in-prison-for-outbreak-that/article_563f8e6c-1421-5ede-8ef4-d269fd1cbdd6.html On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:29:35 -0400, Tony Thigpen wrote: > >>Independent tester hired by third-party that wanted tougher standards. >> > I see: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#Defeat_device_scandal > > The EPA was alerted to the issue by the International Council on Clean > Transportation > (ICCT), reporting the results of research done for them by the Center for > Alternative > Fuels, Engines and Emissions (CAFEE), at the West Virginia University. > In 2014, CAFEE > published a report about such research done for ICCT. > > (Others?) > >>They wanted to use VW as an example of what can be done with clean >>diesel so as to force new rules on other car manufacturers. >> >>Big surprise. :-) >> > What legal protection should there be for employees threatened with job loss > for refusing to further illegal acts of their employers, or for disclosing > such > acts, possibly violating trade secret agreements? Are existing protections > effective and sufficient? > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
> (Others?) Yes. Independent tester was CAFEE. Third-party who hired them was ICCT. Tony Thigpen Paul Gilmartin wrote on 09/22/2015 11:15 AM: On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:29:35 -0400, Tony Thigpen wrote: Independent tester hired by third-party that wanted tougher standards. I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#Defeat_device_scandal The EPA was alerted to the issue by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), reporting the results of research done for them by the Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions (CAFEE), at the West Virginia University. In 2014, CAFEE published a report about such research done for ICCT. (Others?) They wanted to use VW as an example of what can be done with clean diesel so as to force new rules on other car manufacturers. Big surprise. :-) What legal protection should there be for employees threatened with job loss for refusing to further illegal acts of their employers, or for disclosing such acts, possibly violating trade secret agreements? Are existing protections effective and sufficient? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Manning / Assange / Snowden found out the effectiveness of whistleblower protection laws from the U.S. On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:29:35 -0400, Tony Thigpen wrote: > >>Independent tester hired by third-party that wanted tougher standards. >> > I see: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#Defeat_device_scandal > > The EPA was alerted to the issue by the International Council on Clean > Transportation > (ICCT), reporting the results of research done for them by the Center for > Alternative > Fuels, Engines and Emissions (CAFEE), at the West Virginia University. > In 2014, CAFEE > published a report about such research done for ICCT. > > (Others?) > >>They wanted to use VW as an example of what can be done with clean >>diesel so as to force new rules on other car manufacturers. >> >>Big surprise. :-) >> > What legal protection should there be for employees threatened with job loss > for refusing to further illegal acts of their employers, or for disclosing > such > acts, possibly violating trade secret agreements? Are existing protections > effective and sufficient? > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:29:35 -0400, Tony Thigpen wrote: >Independent tester hired by third-party that wanted tougher standards. > I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#Defeat_device_scandal The EPA was alerted to the issue by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), reporting the results of research done for them by the Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions (CAFEE), at the West Virginia University. In 2014, CAFEE published a report about such research done for ICCT. (Others?) >They wanted to use VW as an example of what can be done with clean >diesel so as to force new rules on other car manufacturers. > >Big surprise. :-) > What legal protection should there be for employees threatened with job loss for refusing to further illegal acts of their employers, or for disclosing such acts, possibly violating trade secret agreements? Are existing protections effective and sufficient? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
W dniu 2015-09-22 o 16:22, Bob Shannon pisze: Like Charles said, there two sides, I'm keep wondering why it was done I'm a former TDI owner (not the generation in question). Loved the car. Loved the engine. So, after investing a billion or so dollars in a new engine design VW finds it can either pass the emissions tests or achieve high (target) fuel mileage but not both. What do you do? This was a really cleaver solution, but I wonder how they got caught. VM has screwed the pooch as they are now back to the original problem without solution. Well, my company car is VW TDI. It's the worst car I used for years! Software problems with "turbo" resulted with many, many visits in Service Station (half year old car). It took two months and hunderd pages of "tech help" printed to solve the issue. Another problem: DPF (pollution filter) causes sometimes *big cloud* of white smoke! I submitted it as a failure, but after car was exmined I was informed "it works as it should". (There are also other, minor issues) To be a little bit on topic: I'm told VW is one of JES3 customers minority. ;-) -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2015 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.840.228 złotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Independent tester hired by third-party that wanted tougher standards. They wanted to use VW as an example of what can be done with clean diesel so as to force new rules on other car manufacturers. Big surprise. :-) Tony Thigpen Bob Shannon wrote on 09/22/2015 10:22 AM: Like Charles said, there two sides, I'm keep wondering why it was done I'm a former TDI owner (not the generation in question). Loved the car. Loved the engine. So, after investing a billion or so dollars in a new engine design VW finds it can either pass the emissions tests or achieve high (target) fuel mileage but not both. What do you do? This was a really cleaver solution, but I wonder how they got caught. VM has screwed the pooch as they are now back to the original problem without solution. Bob Shannon Rocket Software Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ■ 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA 02451 ■ +1 800.966.3270 ■ +1 781.577.4321 Unsubscribe From Commercial Email – unsubscr...@rocketsoftware.com Manage Your Subscription Preferences - http://info.rocketsoftware.com/GlobalSubscriptionManagementEmailFooter_SubscriptionCenter.html Privacy Policy - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/company/legal/privacy-policy This communication and any attachments may contain confidential information of Rocket Software, Inc. All unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Rocket Software immediately and destroy all copies of this communication. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
> Like Charles said, there two sides, I'm keep wondering why it was done I'm a former TDI owner (not the generation in question). Loved the car. Loved the engine. So, after investing a billion or so dollars in a new engine design VW finds it can either pass the emissions tests or achieve high (target) fuel mileage but not both. What do you do? This was a really cleaver solution, but I wonder how they got caught. VM has screwed the pooch as they are now back to the original problem without solution. Bob Shannon Rocket Software Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ■ 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA 02451 ■ +1 800.966.3270 ■ +1 781.577.4321 Unsubscribe From Commercial Email – unsubscr...@rocketsoftware.com Manage Your Subscription Preferences - http://info.rocketsoftware.com/GlobalSubscriptionManagementEmailFooter_SubscriptionCenter.html Privacy Policy - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/company/legal/privacy-policy This communication and any attachments may contain confidential information of Rocket Software, Inc. All unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Rocket Software immediately and destroy all copies of this communication. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
John, Like Charles said, there two sides,I'm keep wondering why it was done. Was it a hack or a statement of some sort. There's usually a reason for a action.. Scott On Tuesday, September 22, 2015, Tony Thigpen wrote: > Personally, it makes me want to go out and buy several of their cars. (I > believe that the EPA needs to be reigned in.) > > And for all those who say "but it's cheating", think about your driving > habits. Many of you will drive 80mph down a 70mph interstate knowing the > odds that a cop will stop you is low. You factor in the chances of getting > caught and decide that it's worth the risk. Someone at Volkswagen did a > similar risk assessment. (Personally, I think it was a young programmer who > had a little bit of hacker in him.) > > Tony Thigpen > > Charles Mills wrote on 09/22/2015 09:06 AM: > >> Volkswagen has now had a chance to tell the other side of the story -- and >> there does not seem to be one. I find this story utterly incredible. That >> a >> Worldcom or an Enron or a Madoff would "improve" the books -- I find that >> sadly typical of human nature. But that a publicly-traded, global company >> would apparently order a team of programmers to design and write software >> intended to deceive regulators and despoil the environment -- I find that >> utterly incredible. Volkwagen's stock is down 40% if I understand the news >> reports correctly. I wonder if they can -- I wonder if they should -- >> survive this. >> >> Charles >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Charles Mills >> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 1:05 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control >> Systems >> >> I agree that the story as presented in the initial reports is pretty >> damning. I would like to hear "the other side of the story." I think there >> is at least some possibility that the intent of the programming was not >> malicious and that either it has the unintended side effect that the EPA >> has >> alleged, or possibly that the EPA misinterpreted it altogether. >> Overzealous >> regulation and prosecution is not unprecedented nor unheard-of. >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Personally, it makes me want to go out and buy several of their cars. (I believe that the EPA needs to be reigned in.) And for all those who say "but it's cheating", think about your driving habits. Many of you will drive 80mph down a 70mph interstate knowing the odds that a cop will stop you is low. You factor in the chances of getting caught and decide that it's worth the risk. Someone at Volkswagen did a similar risk assessment. (Personally, I think it was a young programmer who had a little bit of hacker in him.) Tony Thigpen Charles Mills wrote on 09/22/2015 09:06 AM: Volkswagen has now had a chance to tell the other side of the story -- and there does not seem to be one. I find this story utterly incredible. That a Worldcom or an Enron or a Madoff would "improve" the books -- I find that sadly typical of human nature. But that a publicly-traded, global company would apparently order a team of programmers to design and write software intended to deceive regulators and despoil the environment -- I find that utterly incredible. Volkwagen's stock is down 40% if I understand the news reports correctly. I wonder if they can -- I wonder if they should -- survive this. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 1:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems I agree that the story as presented in the initial reports is pretty damning. I would like to hear "the other side of the story." I think there is at least some possibility that the intent of the programming was not malicious and that either it has the unintended side effect that the EPA has alleged, or possibly that the EPA misinterpreted it altogether. Overzealous regulation and prosecution is not unprecedented nor unheard-of. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Volkswagen has now had a chance to tell the other side of the story -- and there does not seem to be one. I find this story utterly incredible. That a Worldcom or an Enron or a Madoff would "improve" the books -- I find that sadly typical of human nature. But that a publicly-traded, global company would apparently order a team of programmers to design and write software intended to deceive regulators and despoil the environment -- I find that utterly incredible. Volkwagen's stock is down 40% if I understand the news reports correctly. I wonder if they can -- I wonder if they should -- survive this. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 1:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems I agree that the story as presented in the initial reports is pretty damning. I would like to hear "the other side of the story." I think there is at least some possibility that the intent of the programming was not malicious and that either it has the unintended side effect that the EPA has alleged, or possibly that the EPA misinterpreted it altogether. Overzealous regulation and prosecution is not unprecedented nor unheard-of. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Scott, I agree that ethics is a large part of it. I will suggest that it is reasonable to anticipate that an attorney may well argue that the programmers in fact became co-conspirators by virtue of the fact that they cannot reasonably argue that they did not know that the code was intended to perpetuate a crime. Whether that argument is made in this case or in some future case, I strongly believe that at some point it will be made, and that it is more likely to occur sooner than later. I suggest that it would be better for the programming profession to take proactive steps to come up with ethical guidelines for members of our profession, rather than leaving it to government to do it, which as we all know, would not be in our best interests. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems This is a question of ethics and ones moral compass. Regards, Scott On Friday, September 18, 2015, Richard Pinion wrote: > I understand the point you are making, that an employee is told to do > something that they know is illegal or immoral, and they do it anyway. > Having worked for a non-profit health insurance company many, many > years ago, I was often asked if we intentionally programmed the system > to automatically reject a claim on first submission, regardless of > whether the claim met all criteria for processing. I was never asked > to do that, nor was I aware of any such code within their claims > processing system. Yet, the public perspective was that the company > did that. > > Not sure how that story fits into the discussion at hand, but it is > late in the day, and I'm looking for ways to fill my time until > "Miller" time. > > --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: > > From: "John P. Baker" > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution > Control Systems > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:54:45 -0400 > > Richard, > > I think that there is a big difference here in that the programming > staff at Volkswagen, if the initial reports are accurate, could not > reasonably not have known that what they were coding was in furtherance of a > crime. > > John P. Baker > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > ] On Behalf Of Richard Pinion > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:30 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution > Control Systems > > As an employee of a company who deals with HIPPA controlled/protected > data, I feel very uncomfortable knowing that I can be charged either > with a civil or criminal violation in the event that HIPPA data, under > my control, is accidentally lost or stolen. And I am not talking > about an intentional leak of protected patient information. What > really floored me this year, when I took the yearly HIPPA > certification online class, was HIPPA is administered under the Office of > Civil Rights. > > Regardless of my personal political theology, it makes me > uncomfortable that if I offend a person or persons, the friendly > neighborhood OCR representative could be asked to "look at" my > activities as relating to HIPPA compliance. I'm sure an unbiased and > diligent OCR employee might uncover some violation(s) if they > investigated long and hard enough. > > --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: > > From: "John P. Baker" > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control > Systems > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:34 -0400 > > > http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intention > ally-v > iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 > > In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had > their programming staff intentionally program the computers > controlling the pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi > and Volkswagen diesel vehicles to activate the full pollution control > systems ONLY when the vehicle was undergoing official emissions > testing. At all other times, the pollution control systems were > inactive and the vehicles were putting out emissions as high as 40 times the > legal limit. > > The company is facing $18 billion in fines. > > It is unclear whether the Volkswagen executives who directed the > scheme will face criminal charges. > > It is also unclear
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
This is a question of ethics and ones moral compass. Regards, Scott On Friday, September 18, 2015, Richard Pinion wrote: > I understand the point you are making, that an employee is told > to do something that they know is illegal or immoral, and they > do it anyway. Having worked for a non-profit health insurance > company many, many years ago, I was often asked if we intentionally > programmed the system to automatically reject a claim on first > submission, regardless of whether the claim met all criteria for > processing. I was never asked to do that, nor was I aware of > any such code within their claims processing system. Yet, the > public perspective was that the company did that. > > Not sure how that story fits into the discussion at hand, but > it is late in the day, and I'm looking for ways to fill my time > until "Miller" time. > > > > --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: > > From: "John P. Baker" > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control > Systems > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:54:45 -0400 > > Richard, > > I think that there is a big difference here in that the programming staff > at Volkswagen, if the initial reports are accurate, could not reasonably > not have known that what they were coding was in furtherance of a crime. > > John P. Baker > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > ] On Behalf Of Richard Pinion > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:30 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control > Systems > > As an employee of a company who deals with HIPPA controlled/protected > data, I feel very uncomfortable knowing that I can be charged either with a > civil or criminal violation in the event that HIPPA data, under my control, > is accidentally lost or stolen. And I am not talking about an intentional > leak of protected patient information. What really floored me this year, > when I took the yearly HIPPA certification online class, was HIPPA is > administered under the Office of Civil Rights. > > Regardless of my personal political theology, it makes me uncomfortable > that if I offend a person or persons, the friendly neighborhood OCR > representative could be asked to "look at" my activities as relating to > HIPPA compliance. I'm sure an unbiased and diligent OCR employee might > uncover some violation(s) if they > investigated long and hard enough. > > --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: > > From: "John P. Baker" > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control > Systems > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:34 -0400 > > > http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-v > iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 > > In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had their > programming staff intentionally program the computers controlling the > pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi and Volkswagen diesel > vehicles to activate the full pollution control systems ONLY when the > vehicle was undergoing official emissions testing. At all other times, the > pollution control systems were inactive and the vehicles were putting out > emissions as high as 40 times the legal limit. > > The company is facing $18 billion in fines. > > It is unclear whether the Volkswagen executives who directed the scheme > will face criminal charges. > > It is also unclear whether the programming staff who wrote the code will > face criminal charges. > > Even though this is not a mainframe issue, it is an issue that directly > affects us and our industry. Hackers are already a significant black eye. > This is much worse. It makes legitimate programmers look suspect. > > It raises the uncomfortable question of whether or not we can or should be > held criminally liable if we are directed to code a program or a change to > a program that we know would have the effect of violating the law and we > then knowingly proceed to code that program or a change to a program. > > It has been suggested in the past that programmers should be licensed > and/or bonded. > > I am not particularly fond of either idea. However, I would like to hear > what others think. > > John P. Baker > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email > to lists
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
I understand the point you are making, that an employee is told to do something that they know is illegal or immoral, and they do it anyway. Having worked for a non-profit health insurance company many, many years ago, I was often asked if we intentionally programmed the system to automatically reject a claim on first submission, regardless of whether the claim met all criteria for processing. I was never asked to do that, nor was I aware of any such code within their claims processing system. Yet, the public perspective was that the company did that. Not sure how that story fits into the discussion at hand, but it is late in the day, and I'm looking for ways to fill my time until "Miller" time. --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: From: "John P. Baker" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:54:45 -0400 Richard, I think that there is a big difference here in that the programming staff at Volkswagen, if the initial reports are accurate, could not reasonably not have known that what they were coding was in furtherance of a crime. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Pinion Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems As an employee of a company who deals with HIPPA controlled/protected data, I feel very uncomfortable knowing that I can be charged either with a civil or criminal violation in the event that HIPPA data, under my control, is accidentally lost or stolen. And I am not talking about an intentional leak of protected patient information. What really floored me this year, when I took the yearly HIPPA certification online class, was HIPPA is administered under the Office of Civil Rights. Regardless of my personal political theology, it makes me uncomfortable that if I offend a person or persons, the friendly neighborhood OCR representative could be asked to "look at" my activities as relating to HIPPA compliance. I'm sure an unbiased and diligent OCR employee might uncover some violation(s) if they investigated long and hard enough. --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: From: "John P. Baker" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:34 -0400 http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-v iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had their programming staff intentionally program the computers controlling the pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi and Volkswagen diesel vehicles to activate the full pollution control systems ONLY when the vehicle was undergoing official emissions testing. At all other times, the pollution control systems were inactive and the vehicles were putting out emissions as high as 40 times the legal limit. The company is facing $18 billion in fines. It is unclear whether the Volkswagen executives who directed the scheme will face criminal charges. It is also unclear whether the programming staff who wrote the code will face criminal charges. Even though this is not a mainframe issue, it is an issue that directly affects us and our industry. Hackers are already a significant black eye. This is much worse. It makes legitimate programmers look suspect. It raises the uncomfortable question of whether or not we can or should be held criminally liable if we are directed to code a program or a change to a program that we know would have the effect of violating the law and we then knowingly proceed to code that program or a change to a program. It has been suggested in the past that programmers should be licensed and/or bonded. I am not particularly fond of either idea. However, I would like to hear what others think. John P. Baker -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
Richard, I think that there is a big difference here in that the programming staff at Volkswagen, if the initial reports are accurate, could not reasonably not have known that what they were coding was in furtherance of a crime. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Pinion Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems As an employee of a company who deals with HIPPA controlled/protected data, I feel very uncomfortable knowing that I can be charged either with a civil or criminal violation in the event that HIPPA data, under my control, is accidentally lost or stolen. And I am not talking about an intentional leak of protected patient information. What really floored me this year, when I took the yearly HIPPA certification online class, was HIPPA is administered under the Office of Civil Rights. Regardless of my personal political theology, it makes me uncomfortable that if I offend a person or persons, the friendly neighborhood OCR representative could be asked to "look at" my activities as relating to HIPPA compliance. I'm sure an unbiased and diligent OCR employee might uncover some violation(s) if they investigated long and hard enough. --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: From: "John P. Baker" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:34 -0400 http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-v iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had their programming staff intentionally program the computers controlling the pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi and Volkswagen diesel vehicles to activate the full pollution control systems ONLY when the vehicle was undergoing official emissions testing. At all other times, the pollution control systems were inactive and the vehicles were putting out emissions as high as 40 times the legal limit. The company is facing $18 billion in fines. It is unclear whether the Volkswagen executives who directed the scheme will face criminal charges. It is also unclear whether the programming staff who wrote the code will face criminal charges. Even though this is not a mainframe issue, it is an issue that directly affects us and our industry. Hackers are already a significant black eye. This is much worse. It makes legitimate programmers look suspect. It raises the uncomfortable question of whether or not we can or should be held criminally liable if we are directed to code a program or a change to a program that we know would have the effect of violating the law and we then knowingly proceed to code that program or a change to a program. It has been suggested in the past that programmers should be licensed and/or bonded. I am not particularly fond of either idea. However, I would like to hear what others think. John P. Baker -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
As an employee of a company who deals with HIPPA controlled/protected data, I feel very uncomfortable knowing that I can be charged either with a civil or criminal violation in the event that HIPPA data, under my control, is accidentally lost or stolen. And I am not talking about an intentional leak of protected patient information. What really floored me this year, when I took the yearly HIPPA certification online class, was HIPPA is administered under the Office of Civil Rights. Regardless of my personal political theology, it makes me uncomfortable that if I offend a person or persons, the friendly neighborhood OCR representative could be asked to "look at" my activities as relating to HIPPA compliance. I'm sure an unbiased and diligent OCR employee might uncover some violation(s) if they investigated long and hard enough. --- jba...@ngssallc.com wrote: From: "John P. Baker" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:34 -0400 http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-v iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had their programming staff intentionally program the computers controlling the pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi and Volkswagen diesel vehicles to activate the full pollution control systems ONLY when the vehicle was undergoing official emissions testing. At all other times, the pollution control systems were inactive and the vehicles were putting out emissions as high as 40 times the legal limit. The company is facing $18 billion in fines. It is unclear whether the Volkswagen executives who directed the scheme will face criminal charges. It is also unclear whether the programming staff who wrote the code will face criminal charges. Even though this is not a mainframe issue, it is an issue that directly affects us and our industry. Hackers are already a significant black eye. This is much worse. It makes legitimate programmers look suspect. It raises the uncomfortable question of whether or not we can or should be held criminally liable if we are directed to code a program or a change to a program that we know would have the effect of violating the law and we then knowingly proceed to code that program or a change to a program. It has been suggested in the past that programmers should be licensed and/or bonded. I am not particularly fond of either idea. However, I would like to hear what others think. John P. Baker -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems
I agree that the story as presented in the initial reports is pretty damning. I would like to hear "the other side of the story." I think there is at least some possibility that the intent of the programming was not malicious and that either it has the unintended side effect that the EPA has alleged, or possibly that the EPA misinterpreted it altogether. Overzealous regulation and prosecution is not unprecedented nor unheard-of. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John P. Baker Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 12:57 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-v iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had their programming staff intentionally program the computers controlling the pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi and Volkswagen diesel vehicles to activate the full pollution control systems ONLY when the vehicle was undergoing official emissions testing. At all other times, the pollution control systems were inactive and the vehicles were putting out emissions as high as 40 times the legal limit. ... It is also unclear whether the programming staff who wrote the code will face criminal charges. ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN