Re: Question about z/VM...
Personal opinion on this point, but my disgust with MS is such that I would not really WANT to host their crap on my mainframe! Too likely that all problems would be blamed on the mainframe and not the POS that is Windows. (POS is not Point Of Sale in this case). I actually prefer something more like LTSP. Have all the CPU / Memory / graphics needed on the user's desktop with no permenant storage. All files on the server, which could be the mainframe z/Linux. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Rifkind Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 4:37 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... Could you just image; sharing a windows kernel (like CMS) and keeping your files like MS Excel etc. on your local workstation. Such a wonderful thing...
Re: Question about z/VM...
Hi John, Speaking from a pure ground floor environment, z/VM will have then come full circle and a true multi functional platform once it can run MS/Windows and the like. But just wait a bit longer...this too is on it's way as it's a force that can't be stopped. Sharing a Linux, Windows, etc kernal ...like CMS isn't far away. McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:57 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... On Thursday, 04/10/2008 at 09:47 EDT, McKown, John wrote: Yes, using BOCHS, which is an Intel instruction set emulator. I would love for them to retry that experiment on a fully powered z10, using optimized z10 instructions. On the old system that they used, it was unusably slow (think 3Mhz not 3Ghz). No, it is not Bochs. It is a native CMS environment to host Windows binaries. But you echo my sentiment that it would great to see Bochs and the kernel compiled with z10 optimization and to try Windows again. Such things are just technology demos, of course. The devil is in the details, as they say, rarely having anything to do with technology! Politics, operating system vendor support, middleware vendor support, ... Alan Altmark Where can I learn more? This might be VERY interesting! Of course, given the attitude of higher level management around here, this might not be enough to save our z. It is still planned to be eliminated (3 to 5 years), despite the fact that we have not found a viable replacement (and have replaced IT management 2 times since the original decision to get rid of it). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Question about z/VM...
Could you just image; sharing a windows kernel (like CMS) and keeping your files like MS Excel etc. on your local workstation. Such a wonderful thing... RPN01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Re: Question about z/VM... You can migrate the functions of a Windows server to zLinux, by converting to appropriate Linux-based tools. I dont think anything on that page directly implies that Windows will run in z/VM 5.3. There is the potential for loose inference, though. To any IBMers present: Is there something we dont know brewing in the Labs? Would running the worlds worst operating system on the worlds best hardware and virtualization platform result in a potentially average system? -- Robert P. Nix Mayo Foundation.~. RO-OE-5-55 200 First Street SW/V\ 507-284-0844 Rochester, MN 55905 /( )\ -^^-^^ In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different. On 4/9/08 6:53 PM, Perry, Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My apologies here is the link. http://www.vm.ibm.com/linux/ William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - From: Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:19 PM To: 'IBMVM@listserv.uark.edu' Subject: Question about z/VM... The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows. Regards, Bill William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Question about z/VM...
No, you cannot run such software on z/VM. The phrasing is very, very poor. What they really mean would be something like: You may be able to consolidate work currently running on Windows and other UNIX platforms by use of equivalent software which can run on Linux on System z, if such software exists. But marketing never likes to phrase things like that. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 6:53 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: FW: Question about z/VM... My apologies... here is the link. http://www.vm.ibm.com/linux/ William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:19 PM To: 'IBMVM@listserv.uark.edu' Subject: Question about z/VM... The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows. Regards, Bill William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about z/VM...
No to windoze on the Z. What I think the author is trying to say is if you have x86 boxes be they unix,aix, or the dreaded w word you should be able to port the apps to Linux on the Z and run there. Does anyone read it this way?? There is always bochs for the Z... Just ask David Boyes about his experience with it Mace From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:53 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: FW: Question about z/VM... My apologies... here is the link. http://www.vm.ibm.com/linux/ William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:19 PM To: 'IBMVM@listserv.uark.edu' Subject: Question about z/VM... The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows. Regards, Bill William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
Re: Question about z/VM...
Linux, yes, Windows no. Linux for System z is the same Linux that you would see on Intel, except that the architecture is for mainframes. The System z is best suited for Linux on System z, due to it's improved support for new architecture features and exceptional performance. Perry, Bill wrote: The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows Regards, Bill /*/William Perry/*/ **San Joaquin County** **Information Systems Division** **24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5** **Stockton, CA 95202** **209-468-9737** [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2008 - Chattanooga - April 18-22, 2008
Re: Question about z/VM...
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Smrcina Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:22 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... Linux, yes, Windows no. Linux for System z is the same Linux that you would see on Intel, except that the architecture is for mainframes. Uh, if the Linux software is a closed source application and the vendor does not supply a System z port, then the software will not run on Linux on z. Just being a pain-in-the-buttocks (me). The System z is best suited for Linux on System z, due to it's improved support for new architecture features and exceptional performance. Huh? What else, other than Hercules, allows Linux for System z to run on a non-z machine??? -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: Question about z/VM...
But didn't we have a recent thread here by someone whose company DID get Windows to run on VM, I think he said somehow on CMS? From: Macioce, Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] No to windoze on the Z.
Re: Question about z/VM...
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shimon Lebowitz Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:43 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... But didn't we have a recent thread here by someone whose company DID get Windows to run on VM, I think he said somehow on CMS? Yes, using BOCHS, which is an Intel instruction set emulator. I would love for them to retry that experiment on a fully powered z10, using optimized z10 instructions. On the old system that they used, it was unusably slow (think 3Mhz not 3Ghz). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: Question about z/VM...
McKown, John wrote: Uh, if the Linux software is a closed source application and the vendor does not supply a System z port, then the software will not run on Linux on z. Just being a pain-in-the-buttocks (me). The question wasn't Linux software, but Linux itself. Yes, the answer to the Linux software question is a varied mess of support statements... The System z is best suited for Linux on System z, due to it's improved support for new architecture features and exceptional performance. Huh? What else, other than Hercules, allows Linux for System z to run on a non-z machine??? I was referring to the newer System z hardware as compared to the older z800/z890/z900/z990 or even G5/G6 hardware. -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2008 - Chattanooga - April 18-22, 2008
Re: Question about z/VM...
On Thursday, 04/10/2008 at 09:23 EDT, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, you cannot run such software on z/VM. The phrasing is very, very poor. What they really mean would be something like: You may be able to consolidate work currently running on Windows and other UNIX platforms by use of equivalent software which can run on Linux on System z, if such software exists. But marketing never likes to phrase things like that. To be fair, it does say consolidate workloads, not servers. And to have to change workloads to workloads-using-programs-for-which-there-exists-a-sufficiently-equivalent-program-built-for-the-System-z-architecture-by-which-we-mean-the-instruction-set-used-on-the-IBM-mainframe--contact-your-application-vendor-for-details would simply distract from the message. I mean, we use the term workload a LOT. And as we've see here recently, there *is* a company working to bring the ability to host Windows workloads-using-the-same-programs-that-you-are-using-now to System z. But it's certainly fair to ask the question, What do you mean by 'workloads'? during a fact-finding mission, as technology changes can alter the definition in the blink of an eye. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Question about z/VM...
On Thursday, 04/10/2008 at 09:47 EDT, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, using BOCHS, which is an Intel instruction set emulator. I would love for them to retry that experiment on a fully powered z10, using optimized z10 instructions. On the old system that they used, it was unusably slow (think 3Mhz not 3Ghz). No, it is not Bochs. It is a native CMS environment to host Windows binaries. But you echo my sentiment that it would great to see Bochs and the kernel compiled with z10 optimization and to try Windows again. Such things are just technology demos, of course. The devil is in the details, as they say, rarely having anything to do with technology! Politics, operating system vendor support, middleware vendor support, ... Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Question about z/VM...
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:57 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... On Thursday, 04/10/2008 at 09:47 EDT, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, using BOCHS, which is an Intel instruction set emulator. I would love for them to retry that experiment on a fully powered z10, using optimized z10 instructions. On the old system that they used, it was unusably slow (think 3Mhz not 3Ghz). No, it is not Bochs. It is a native CMS environment to host Windows binaries. But you echo my sentiment that it would great to see Bochs and the kernel compiled with z10 optimization and to try Windows again. Such things are just technology demos, of course. The devil is in the details, as they say, rarely having anything to do with technology! Politics, operating system vendor support, middleware vendor support, ... Alan Altmark Where can I learn more? This might be VERY interesting! Of course, given the attitude of higher level management around here, this might not be enough to save our z. It is still planned to be eliminated (3 to 5 years), despite the fact that we have not found a viable replacement (and have replaced IT management 2 times since the original decision to get rid of it). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: Question about z/VM...
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Shimon Lebowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But didn't we have a recent thread here by someone whose company DID get Windows to run on VM, I think he said somehow on CMS? Yes. It appears that works by way of a tighter emulator than those which run on Linux. It is an emulator true enough, but runs on CMS. (Which is a more efficient environment than Linux.) -- R;
Re: Question about z/VM...
You can migrate the functions of a Windows server to zLinux, by converting to appropriate Linux-based tools. I don¹t think anything on that page directly implies that Windows will run in z/VM 5.3. There is the potential for loose inference, though. To any IBMers present: Is there something we don¹t know brewing in the Labs? Would running the world¹s worst operating system on the world¹s best hardware and virtualization platform result in a potentially average system? -- Robert P. Nix Mayo Foundation.~. RO-OE-5-55 200 First Street SW/V\ 507-284-0844 Rochester, MN 55905 /( )\ -^^-^^ In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different. On 4/9/08 6:53 PM, Perry, Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My apologies here is the link. http://www.vm.ibm.com/linux/ William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:19 PM To: 'IBMVM@listserv.uark.edu' Subject: Question about z/VM... The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows. Regards, Bill William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about z/VM...
A chain is as strong as its weakest link. Running Windows on z would not make it better, IMO. We rarely have Intel hardware outages on our Enterprise level servers. But Windows will still BSOD on them on occassion. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RPN01 Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:41 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... You can migrate the functions of a Windows server to zLinux, by converting to appropriate Linux-based tools. I don't think anything on that page directly implies that Windows will run in z/VM 5.3. There is the potential for loose inference, though. To any IBMers present: Is there something we don't know brewing in the Labs? Would running the world's worst operating system on the world's best hardware and virtualization platform result in a potentially average system? -- Robert P. Nix Mayo Foundation.~.
Re: Question about z/VM...
The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows. You cannot run Intel binaries efficiently on System z hardware. You can run Windows applications based on the portable subset of .NET (using Mono) or applications which you have source code and can recompile for System z hardware. There are also suites that allow some ASP applications to run. Pure Java should run if you have the right combination of JVM and environment. The major Java container applications (WAS, BEA, jboss/tomcat) run well (with a bit of tuning). You technically can run Windows in a z/VM virtual machine using a Intel emulator like bochs, but the overhead CPU cost is horrendous (75-100 to 1). You wouldn't want to do it for production work unless you have lots of money to burn, but it might be OK for testing stuff. If you need dense numbers Windows servers, look at the newest quad and octo-core blade servers with lots and lots of RAM running VMWare. They're about the best available option for the typical Windows application server sprawl. You should look at whether some of your Intel Linux apps could be moved, though, or pieces of infrastructure like Oracle or DB/2 servers could be moved. There are substantial savings to be had in terms of licensing for infrastructure pieces.
Re: Question about z/VM...
But you echo my sentiment that it would great to see Bochs and the kernel compiled with z10 optimization and to try Windows again. Make a z10 available, and we'll be there. 8-) -- db
Re: Question about z/VM...
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 11:12 AM, McKown, John People at church often ask me how much it would cost for me to get the computer that I really want. They are shocked when I say millions. Ah, to have a z10 and DASD array in the basement. If I had a basement, that is. See earlier thread about the normal personality of a sysprog. :-)
Re: Question about z/VM...
Bill, you can run Linux on the mainframe, either in an LPAR stand alone (not really recommended) or you can run it under VM. VM can run Linux in a regular CP or in an IFL. Windows cannot run natively in an LPAR or under VM like Linux can. Some Windows apps can run under linux under VM, by using WINE or BOCHS(?) to name a couple. But that is REALLY not recommended. Response time will be less than stellar. Some folks on this list have done it. But other than bragging rights, from what I understand, it runs slow. There has been the hint of a rumor of someone working on a native implementation of Windows under VM. I am, respectfully, skeptical. Steve G. From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Perry, Bill Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:19 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Question about z/VM... The following link makes it sound like you can run Linux and MS Windows virtual servers on z/VM 5.3. Is this the case? We are looking for a Main Frame / Enterprise Server that will run x86 based OSs like Linux and MS Windows. Regards, Bill William Perry San Joaquin County Information Systems Division 24 S. Hunter Street, Room 5 Stockton, CA 95202 209-468-9737 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about z/VM...
Shades of TELXON. 9 VP (4 were temp VP), 7 million dollars, and 10 years later VM was gone. So is TELXON. Ed Martin 330-588-4723 ext 40441 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:01 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:57 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Question about z/VM... On Thursday, 04/10/2008 at 09:47 EDT, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, using BOCHS, which is an Intel instruction set emulator. I would love for them to retry that experiment on a fully powered z10, using optimized z10 instructions. On the old system that they used, it was unusably slow (think 3Mhz not 3Ghz). No, it is not Bochs. It is a native CMS environment to host Windows binaries. But you echo my sentiment that it would great to see Bochs and the kernel compiled with z10 optimization and to try Windows again. Such things are just technology demos, of course. The devil is in the details, as they say, rarely having anything to do with technology! Politics, operating system vendor support, middleware vendor support, ... Alan Altmark Where can I learn more? This might be VERY interesting! Of course, given the attitude of higher level management around here, this might not be enough to save our z. It is still planned to be eliminated (3 to 5 years), despite the fact that we have not found a viable replacement (and have replaced IT management 2 times since the original decision to get rid of it). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: Question about z/VM...
McKown, John wrote: Huh? What else, other than Hercules, allows Linux for System z to run on a non-z machine??? Flex-ES. -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: Question about z/VM...
On 4/10/08 10:02 AM, David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You cannot run Intel binaries efficiently on System z hardware. You can run Windows applications based on the portable subset of .NET (using Mono) or applications which you have source code and can recompile for System z hardware. There are also suites that allow some ASP applications to run. Pure Java should run if you have the right combination of JVM and environment. The major Java container applications (WAS, BEA, jboss/tomcat) run well (with a bit of tuning). Our experience with z/VOS indicates that it is possible to run Intel binaries efficiently on System z. However, this efficiency is not possible with emulation. Prime pass code translation with managed code segment invalidation is the only way we have found to achieve performance viability using native binaries. Many performance efficiencies not apparent initially became obvious once we started to reconcile the IBM and Intel principles of operation. You technically can run Windows in a z/VM virtual machine using a Intel emulator like bochs, but the overhead CPU cost is horrendous (75-100 to 1). You wouldn¹t want to do it for production work unless you have lots of money to burn, but it might be OK for testing stuff. We have run Windows® (98/NT) under both BOCHS and QEMU on System z under Cent OS and can attest to the overhead and cost. This nightmare experience is the reason we selected z/VM CMS as the environment for z/VOS. The approach taken by QEMU and BOCHS ensures that neither system will achieve viable performance/resource consumption metrics on System z. In defense of these products, they were never intended to do this. A z/VM runtime environment won't improve guest reliability but if that guest can be run at a fraction of the cost, the value proposition would be compelling. If 25 virtualized images on one box is a good thing, 500 guests on a single footprint would be attractive. There could be a major change in where and how computing resources are consumed. If you think that type of shift could take place (it has already has with intel virtualization systems), the possibility that the source of those cycles may be different is not a stretch. If you need dense numbers Windows servers, look at the newest quad and octo-core blade servers with lots and lots of RAM running VMWare. They¹re about the best available option for the typical Windows application server sprawl. You should look at whether some of your Intel Linux apps could be moved, though, or pieces of infrastructure like Oracle or DB/2 servers could be moved. There are substantial savings to be had in terms of licensing for infrastructure pieces. --. .- .-. -.-- Gary Dennis
Re: Question about z/VM...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Gary M. Dennis wrote: | | Our experience with z/VOS indicates that it is possible to run Intel | binaries efficiently on System z. However, this efficiency is not possible | with emulation. Prime pass code translation with managed code segment | invalidation is the only way we have found to achieve performance viability | using native binaries. Many performance efficiencies not apparent initially | became obvious once we started to reconcile the IBM and Intel principles of | operation. | (snip) | | We have run Windows® (98/NT) under both BOCHS and QEMU on System z under | Cent OS and can attest to the overhead and cost. This nightmare experience | is the reason we selected z/VM CMS as the environment for z/VOS. | Where might one find more information about the z/VOS product you mention? A quick google search or two doesn't show any obvious hits on the first pages .. - -- Pat -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH/oXhNObCqA8uBswRAtmQAJ9CIxJJV4G34C6tAV0hmhaIsCsdYgCfazA+ WG8sGvRGZBvj37HY/kOMkk0= =gZrV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Question about z/VM...
Not on the second page, either. Regards, Richard Schuh Where might one find more information about the z/VOS product you mention? A quick google search or two doesn't show any obvious hits on the first pages .. - -- Pat -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH/oXhNObCqA8uBswRAtmQAJ9CIxJJV4G34C6tAV0hmhaIsCsdYgCfazA+ WG8sGvRGZBvj37HY/kOMkk0= =gZrV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Question about z/VM...
On: Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 04:25:53PM -0500,Patrick Spinler Wrote: } Where might one find more information about the z/VOS product you } mention? A quick google search or two doesn't show any obvious hits on } the first pages .. Check the archives of this list. It was discussed a few days ago. -- Rich Greenberg N Ft Myers, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 239 543 1353 Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself my dogs only.VM'er since CP-67 Canines:Val, Red, Shasta Casey (RIP), Red Zero, Siberians Owner:Chinook-L Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L
Re: Question about z/VM...
z/VOS has not been released and no technical specifications are available. It should not surprise anyone that this could and would be done. It's much closer to detective work than rocket science. Once you acknowledge that the x86 instruction set is a jungle when compared to the well ordered garden to which most of us are accustomed, building the instruction support is tedious but straight forward. The challenge is not getting this to work; it's getting it to work well. --. .- .-. -.-- Gary Dennis On 4/10/08 4:25 PM, Patrick Spinler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Gary M. Dennis wrote: | | Our experience with z/VOS indicates that it is possible to run Intel | binaries efficiently on System z. However, this efficiency is not possible | with emulation. Prime pass code translation with managed code segment | invalidation is the only way we have found to achieve performance viability | using native binaries. Many performance efficiencies not apparent initially | became obvious once we started to reconcile the IBM and Intel principles of | operation. | (snip) | | We have run Windows® (98/NT) under both BOCHS and QEMU on System z under | Cent OS and can attest to the overhead and cost. This nightmare experience | is the reason we selected z/VM CMS as the environment for z/VOS. | Where might one find more information about the z/VOS product you mention? A quick google search or two doesn't show any obvious hits on the first pages .. - -- Pat -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH/oXhNObCqA8uBswRAtmQAJ9CIxJJV4G34C6tAV0hmhaIsCsdYgCfazA+ WG8sGvRGZBvj37HY/kOMkk0= =gZrV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
