Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 06:30:08PM -0500, John McKown wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Edward M Martin wrote: I would suggest to you all, IBM LAWYERS are now watch everyone involved with this Hercules conversation. I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. #3 is very right. Just look at how IBM is stomping SCO into the ground. This is regarding the front door policy. I'm absolutely certain there are a few entities in this world, both within and without IBM, that are legally testing z10 emulation via OSes not yet GA. They know who they are, and the rest of us don't, since NDAs must be involved which would not be extended without some degree of effort to establish trust beforehand. I'd love to be among them but I'd have to learn so much first just to be considered. Ditto for zVOS. -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave Craig - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.' --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: 29 July 2009 02:26 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 On Jul 28, 2009, at 6:32 PM, John McKown wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. And how would you get IBM to license z/VM 6.1 to you when they know that you don't have a z10? IBM is not under any obligation to license their software to anybody. Now, if IBM ever said NO simply because we don't like you, that might be a very interesting lawsuit. I'm not denying that the original poster may not have a legal way to do it. I am specifically objecting to Edward Martin's Point 1. There's a perfectly legal way to run z/VM under Hercules. Not that you'd necessarily want to. But I did run 64-bit z/VM 4.4 on my H70, and I might be the only person who can say that. I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere that after the PSI debacle IBM amended the license terms to specifically prohibit the use of zVM under Emulation of any kind thus closing this loophole. Adam Dave
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
Hello Adam, I can say that I was told, in no uncertain terms, from IBM that it is illegal to run VM/ESA and up under Hercules. That was a while back, and things may have changed but I have never seen anything to the contrary. Hey, IBM what is your stand on Hercules? Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:26 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 On Jul 28, 2009, at 6:32 PM, John McKown wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. And how would you get IBM to license z/VM 6.1 to you when they know that you don't have a z10? IBM is not under any obligation to license their software to anybody. Now, if IBM ever said NO simply because we don't like you, that might be a very interesting lawsuit. I'm not denying that the original poster may not have a legal way to do it. I am specifically objecting to Edward Martin's Point 1. There's a perfectly legal way to run z/VM under Hercules. Not that you'd necessarily want to. But I did run 64-bit z/VM 4.4 on my H70, and I might be the only person who can say that. Adam
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Jul 29, 2009, at 8:48 AM, Edward M Martin wrote: Hello Adam, I can say that I was told, in no uncertain terms, from IBM that it is illegal to run VM/ESA and up under Hercules. That was a while back, and things may have changed but I have never seen anything to the contrary. Hey, IBM what is your stand on Hercules? Your answer was probably complicated by the fact that when you asked the question, IBM very likely assumed an implied on commodity hardware. So I think we need to ask a followup question: ...on Hercules, when running in a z/Linux image, underneath an instance of z/VM on the processor or processors to which that version z/VM is licensed. Certainly no one ever told me what I was doing on my H70 was illegal. A lot of people asked me questions that implied that they thought I was an idiot or at least insane--which, you know, from a performance standpoint, well, yeah, guilty as charged--but no one said that I shouldn't run my copy of z/VM at about 1/100th speed if that was what I really wanted to do. Adam
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Jul 29, 2009, at 1:50 AM, Dave Wade wrote: I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere that after the PSI debacle IBM amended the license terms to specifically prohibit the use of zVM under Emulation of any kind thus closing this loophole. Even if it's on the same processor? That would surprise me. After all, you are already allowed to nest your z/VM instances as deep as you like (if this were to change, it would break pretty much everyone's upgrade process, wouldn't it?). Whether or not some of the intervening layers are Linux doesn't seem like it should matter, but strange are the ways of licenses. Adam
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
Hello Adam, I was part of the developers group. I thought it was neat that you could. But there were some major problems running Hercules-VM/ESA-VSE/ESA. I did learn lots. But IBM was extremely hostile. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:59 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 On Jul 29, 2009, at 8:48 AM, Edward M Martin wrote: Hello Adam, I can say that I was told, in no uncertain terms, from IBM that it is illegal to run VM/ESA and up under Hercules. That was a while back, and things may have changed but I have never seen anything to the contrary. Hey, IBM what is your stand on Hercules? Your answer was probably complicated by the fact that when you asked the question, IBM very likely assumed an implied on commodity hardware. So I think we need to ask a followup question: ...on Hercules, when running in a z/Linux image, underneath an instance of z/VM on the processor or processors to which that version z/VM is licensed. Certainly no one ever told me what I was doing on my H70 was illegal. A lot of people asked me questions that implied that they thought I was an idiot or at least insane--which, you know, from a performance standpoint, well, yeah, guilty as charged--but no one said that I shouldn't run my copy of z/VM at about 1/100th speed if that was what I really wanted to do. Adam
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:03:59 +1000, Graeme Moss ib...@mossaustralia.com wrote: The company I work for is very tight with money (eg they don't pay me wh at I would like to receive) and the section I work for (Software Factory) onl y gets hand-me-down mainframes. I can see the situation arising where our clients who are on a z10 will want z/VM 6.1 but the Software Factory onl y has a z9 to run on. Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux o n a z9 ? 2/ Do you think IBM would allow it since it is not production? Graeme Graeme: IBM will NOT license z/VM V6 on a z9 (production or otherwise). While Hercules running on Linux on System z may allow it to work, doing this wo uld be a violation of the license. I don't think you want to put your employe r into this position. Until we ship the new function that was in the Statements of Direction in the z/VM V6.1 preview, there is only a minor functional difference you ne ed to worry about between z/VM V5.4 and z/VM V6.1 (see the preview). You cou ld run z/VM V5.4 on your z9 and z/VM V6.1 on your z10 and doing any regressi on testing on a small z/VM V6.1 image on the z10. Now when we deliver this n ew function, if you want/need to use it, you will need to roll the developme nt machine to a z10. Jim
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
Thank-you Jim you have given me a definite answer. Now I know it pointless talking to the procurement team about going down this path. - Original Message - From: Jim Elliott, IBM jelli...@gdlvm7.vnet.ibm.com To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:38 AM Subject: Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:03:59 +1000, Graeme Moss ib...@mossaustralia.com wrote: The company I work for is very tight with money (eg they don't pay me wh at I would like to receive) and the section I work for (Software Factory) onl y gets hand-me-down mainframes. I can see the situation arising where our clients who are on a z10 will want z/VM 6.1 but the Software Factory onl y has a z9 to run on. Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux o n a z9 ? 2/ Do you think IBM would allow it since it is not production? Graeme Graeme: IBM will NOT license z/VM V6 on a z9 (production or otherwise). While Hercules running on Linux on System z may allow it to work, doing this wo uld be a violation of the license. I don't think you want to put your employe r into this position. Until we ship the new function that was in the Statements of Direction in the z/VM V6.1 preview, there is only a minor functional difference you ne ed to worry about between z/VM V5.4 and z/VM V6.1 (see the preview). You cou ld run z/VM V5.4 on your z9 and z/VM V6.1 on your z10 and doing any regressi on testing on a small z/VM V6.1 image on the z10. Now when we deliver this n ew function, if you want/need to use it, you will need to roll the developme nt machine to a z10. Jim
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On 7/28/2009 at 5:03 PM, Graeme Moss ib...@mossaustralia.com wrote: -snip- Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux on a z9 ? Most likely it would work. 2/ Do you think IBM would allow it since it is not production? Absolutely not. If someone from IBM finds out, I suspect you'll be hearing from the lawyers. Mark Post
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Graeme Moss Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:04 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 The company I work for is very tight with money (eg they don't pay me what I would like to receive) and the section I work for (Software Factory) only gets hand-me-down mainframes. I can see the situation arising where our clients who are on a z10 will want z/VM 6.1 but the Software Factory only has a z9 to run on. Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux on a z9 ? If Hercules implements the z10 instructions, then I would guess it might run. 2/ Do you think IBM would allow it since it is not production? You'd need to ask IBM about that. My personal opinion would be that they would NOT allow it. Graeme I don't know your situation well enough, but if your clients require z/VM 6.1 support, then your company needs to run z/VM 6.1. Which means a z10. Basically, tell your marketting department that someone is making a mistake by not having a z10 because that will decrease your sales to leading edge clients. And they are usually the larger clients. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:11 PM, Mark Postmp...@novell.com wrote: On 7/28/2009 at 5:03 PM, Graeme Moss ib...@mossaustralia.com wrote: -snip- Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux on a z9 ? Most likely it would work. Re-reading the original question, it appears that OP is talking about z9 + z/VM 5.1 | Linux s390x | Hercules | z/VM 6.1 | Linux If that's really the suggested configuration, then I need a very urgent drink and Graeme needs a great deal of patience ;-) Assuming Hercules would run on s390x (would not be surprised to find some big endian worms in the can) and it would be made to simulate the relevant bits of the z10, then my guess is there will be 2 orders of magnitude lost in the game. And why would one want to? Most relevant things in z/VM 6.1 will be retrofitted to z/VM 5.1 anyway (and the rest would depend on aspects that might even require another z/VM in between :-) Rob
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
Hello Everyone, I would suggest to you all, IBM LAWYERS are now watch everyone involved with this Hercules conversation. I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Honestly, I have been there and done that. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Graeme Moss Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:04 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 The company I work for is very tight with money (eg they don't pay me what I would like to receive) and the section I work for (Software Factory) only gets hand-me-down mainframes. I can see the situation arising where our clients who are on a z10 will want z/VM 6.1 but the Software Factory only has a z9 to run on. Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux on a z9 ? 2/ Do you think IBM would allow it since it is not production? Graeme
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. Adam
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
But I think that's the real problem here, you can not license z/VM 6.1 on a z9 processor, so in effect you would be running unlicensed software (z/VM 6.1) on an unsupported system (z9-Linux-Hercules-z/VM 6.1). And, as Rob has pointed out, performance would in all likelihood be perfectly horrible. Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. Adam -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
I don't think IBM would see you a new license for z/VM 6.1 on a z9, but if you have an existing z/VM version 5 license with Subscription and Support, you're entitled to version upgrades at no extra charge. Read the fine print in your license agreement. You shouldn't expect support for z/VM 6.1 on a z9, but you might be entitled to run it there. Just don't expect it to run well. Dennis That's one small step for (a) man, one giant leap for mankind. -- Neil Armstrong, 20 July 1969, Sea of Tranquility -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Jones Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 14:44 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: [IBMVM] z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 But I think that's the real problem here, you can not license z/VM 6.1 on a z9 processor, so in effect you would be running unlicensed software (z/VM 6.1) on an unsupported system (z9-Linux-Hercules-z/VM 6.1). And, as Rob has pointed out, performance would in all likelihood be perfectly horrible. Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. Adam -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
We are licensed to run z/VM 5.x on our z9. I do not believe there is a restriction that it must be the host system in a lpar thus running lpar - vm - linux - hercules - vm is quite legal. I am trying to asertain should I bother going to our procurment people to ask them to talk to IBM about licensing z/VM 6.1 for the z9. We need the licence to be able to place an order so that z/VM 6.1 can be downloaded. Any production use of z/VM 6.1 would be on a z10. I would like to get this sorted as it would probably reduce the pressure on me to configure a new system with all the third party software to supply to clients. Our marketing team would like to sell clients more z10. Also it would be a bit of fun to do and I could justify the diversion into the land of Linux. Graeme - Original Message - From: Edward M Martin emar...@aultman.com To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:25 AM Subject: Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 Hello Everyone, I would suggest to you all, IBM LAWYERS are now watch everyone involved with this Hercules conversation. I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Honestly, I have been there and done that. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Graeme Moss Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:04 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 The company I work for is very tight with money (eg they don't pay me what I would like to receive) and the section I work for (Software Factory) only gets hand-me-down mainframes. I can see the situation arising where our clients who are on a z10 will want z/VM 6.1 but the Software Factory only has a z9 to run on. Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux on a z9 ? 2/ Do you think IBM would allow it since it is not production? Graeme
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Rob van der Heij Sent: 28 July 2009 22:26 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9 On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:11 PM, Mark Postmp...@novell.com wrote: On 7/28/2009 at 5:03 PM, Graeme Moss ib...@mossaustralia.com wrote: -snip- Questions 1/ Do you think z/VM 6.1 could be installed under Hercules under Linux on a z9 ? Most likely it would work. Re-reading the original question, it appears that OP is talking about z9 + z/VM 5.1 | Linux s390x | Hercules | z/VM 6.1 | Linux If that's really the suggested configuration, then I need a very urgent drink and Graeme needs a great deal of patience ;-) Assuming Hercules would run on s390x (would not be surprised to find some big endian worms in the can) and it would be made to simulate the relevant bits of the z10, then my guess is there will be 2 orders of magnitude lost in the game. Whilst I think the performance hits kill this stone dead, I wouldn't expect any Endian bugs. Much initial work was done on older MAC's which are I believe BIG endian. I have a Sun Ultra 60 SPARC workstation, also big endian and run Hercules on that with no issues. There again I have only run the OS's that are legal in my domain on this, and rely on the generosity of list members for access to zVM Systems so the latest and greatest may not work... Doesnt IBM offer some zVM access to developer partners? And why would one want to? Most relevant things in z/VM 6.1 will be retrofitted to z/VM 5.1 anyway (and the rest would depend on aspects that might even require another z/VM in between :-) Rob Dave G4UGM
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On 7/28/2009 at 6:03 PM, Graeme Moss ib...@mossaustralia.com wrote: We are licensed to run z/VM 5.x on our z9. I do not believe there is a restriction that it must be the host system in a lpar thus running lpar - vm - linux - hercules - vm is quite legal. I am trying to asertain should I bother going to our procurment people to ask them to talk to IBM about licensing z/VM 6.1 for the z9. I would not make the assumption that it is legal, I would have your purchasing department check with IBM. The Terms and Condition that accompany any software need to be examined very carefully before doing something like this. Mark Post
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Edward M Martin wrote: Hello Everyone, I would suggest to you all, IBM LAWYERS are now watch everyone involved with this Hercules conversation. I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. #3 is very right. Just look at how IBM is stomping SCO into the ground. Ed Martin -- Trying to write with a pencil that is dull is pointless. Maranatha! John McKown
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. And how would you get IBM to license z/VM 6.1 to you when they know that you don't have a z10? IBM is not under any obligation to license their software to anybody. Now, if IBM ever said NO simply because we don't like you, that might be a very interesting lawsuit. Adam -- Trying to write with a pencil that is dull is pointless. Maranatha! John McKown
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
We are licensed to run z/VM 5.x on our z9. I do not believe there is a restriction that it must be the host system in a lpar thus running lpar - vm - linux - hercules - vm is quite legal. I am trying to asertain should I bother going to our procurment people to ask them to talk to IBM about licensing z/VM 6.1 for the z9. I would not make the assumption that it is legal, I would have your = purchasing department check with IBM. The Terms and Condition that = accompany any software need to be examined very carefully before doing = something like this. Neither would I make the assumption z/VM 6.1 will run on a z9 Best Regards, Les Geer IBM z/VM and Linux Development
Re: z/VM 6.1 and Hercules on Z9
On Jul 28, 2009, at 6:32 PM, John McKown wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Edward M Martin wrote: I can say that, 1) it is illegal to run z/VM (pick a version) under Hercules, 2) they do not like it, and 3) they do not have any sense of humor. Perfectly fine to run it under Hercules on the processor z/VM is licensed to. And how would you get IBM to license z/VM 6.1 to you when they know that you don't have a z10? IBM is not under any obligation to license their software to anybody. Now, if IBM ever said NO simply because we don't like you, that might be a very interesting lawsuit. I'm not denying that the original poster may not have a legal way to do it. I am specifically objecting to Edward Martin's Point 1. There's a perfectly legal way to run z/VM under Hercules. Not that you'd necessarily want to. But I did run 64-bit z/VM 4.4 on my H70, and I might be the only person who can say that. Adam
