Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Skye, thanks for quoting me and agreeing with everything I said...
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
You guys are not hurting my feelings or actually giving me any kind of emotion except your closed mindness. Its a fad, you all jump onboard. They are just a pair of regular shoes that have been used on horses forever. YadaYada Yada..
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>> it is not really cheaper Hum..let's see what my cost is. Here is my projected hoof costs for 2008, this is trimming every seven (7) weeks. With Scott my natural trimmer, I will have a total of eight (8) trims each for Huginn and Dixie. Each trim is $40.00. So 16 trims = $640.00. Now...if I were to return to shoeing Huginn my projected hoof costs for 2008: With farrier David, I would have three (3) trims for Huginn, eight (8) trims for Dixie and five (5) shoeing for Huginn. Trims are $27.00 and shoeing is $140.00. Plus a $15.00 barn call fee. My 2008 total = $1,117.00. More shoeing ...if I wear the shoes down to thin metal and I have been known to do this, so then it's shoeing every 4 -5 weeks. Now...is barefooting cheaper? Hum..maybe in the long run. But this was my first year and I had to buy so many Easy Boot setst that it was driving me CRAZY. I think I must have 4 compete sets; 00, 0 and 1's. And let me tell you those are NOT cheap. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:37:58 -0600, you wrote: >my natural barefoot TRIMMER..does trim my ponies different. scott does >not take any live sole off and he rolles the hoof edges, so that they >do not chip. That's what my farrier does to anything he trims. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
> >> again, i think we are confusing barefoot with "barefoot" > > as in pasture barefoot to trimming for "barefoot" as in wild horse? to me there is a difference. In pasture barefoot to trimming for wild horse barefoot. like my farrier says, how you gonna trim a horse in florida like a horse should be trimmed in a place where they walk on rocks all day. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>>For the record, I am slightly handicapped and my legs are very spastic. I need a very smooth horse. The trot and most canters don't work for me. I wish they did. I know this...and I do sincerly apprecite it. But, I also think that you need to keep your horse's welfare in mind. I'm sorry, I know this will upset you and hurt your feelings. But I can not support that fact that you want to change your horse's way of going.with shoes, so that your ride will be smoother. There are many smooth horses out there; smooth slow QH's with awesome ride "all -day -jogs", smooth fast gaited horses and horses who have awesome smooth dog/flat walks. In the long run...what you do to your horse's hooves will affect thier bodies. It''s just not fair to your horses to try to make them ...into something that they are not built to do. Conformation is the huge important part in gaiting! Gaits are in the horses conformation...not in the hooves or shoes. I know that you love your mares, but maybejust maybe you need to try to find a smoother...naturally gaited horse. (??) It's like me wanting to run cans and win the purse. No way could I do that with Huginn, he is to bulky, stocky and just can spin those cans that way money-making can horse must do. If I wanted to run cans to win I would need a small fast QH. Or me bringing home those senior Ice Ponies and wanting to do endurance on them. Yea...may work. But,,, most likely...NOT. Huginn's tolt is not set ...nor is it the best/smoothest. I would never consider shoeing/trimming him to get smoother gaits out of him. He is what he is. HIs body is not built for tolt and as a repsonsible horse owner I need to accept that. If not, than I would sell him and get a smoother horse. Again...please beleive me...my intention is not to hurt you or upset you Raven
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>> The other thing that bugs me - the idea that a barefoot trim and a pasture trim are two different things. A good, balanced trim is a good, balanced trim. Period. mic...i am not a trimmer nor do i trim my own ponies. but there is a difference between the two trims. in the past...my FARRIER would trim my ponies in the winter and take off a ton of sole/live tissue. and would not put a mustange roll on the hoof edges. my natural barefoot TRIMMER..does trim my ponies different. scott does not take any live sole off and he rolles the hoof edges, so that they do not chip. sorry i can't explain it better. raven
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
for me, going barefoot is a personal > choice... I think more horses can go barefoot then are at the > moment. I think it is easier done then one thinks is is going > to be, I totally agree...many of our horse we shoe, we feel could go barefoot...in our farrier business we have turned many many horse owners into having a barefoot horse. We only try it if the whole picture matches up, ie. horse, feet, owners, pasture, type of riding, health of the horse...and I am sure other factors as well (its late so I might be missing something) it is not really cheaper, Very true...for a lot of horse owners it is not really cheaper...we charge $40-$50 for a barefoot trim, and sometimes they might need to be done more regular depending on many factors. I think where people really need to start is when the foal is born... lots of exercise, lots of movement, start from the get go with foals, and yes better breeding and I think barefoot will be easier from the beginning... Totally agree. Thats why we have our babies in the most natural setting we can give them, 2000 acres of pasture with hills (4000 foot elevation up to 7000 foot elevation), with a lot of room, they must move to water, they run, play, have their own social network, have older mares to give them boundaries...they have GREAT FEET! They are full bodied, strong andf have a good sense of themselves. They get a visit each week, and love humans, but are very respectful, not pushy, curious and friendly, but yet independent... The stallion we imported has GREAT feet and bone... > > the barefoot trim is different then a typical pasture trim... and I > am not sure if people are aware of all of this, we are discussing this very subject on the barefoothorsecare list, there are many who are much better at explaining things then I am on that list... so, I welcome any of you to join it True.pasture trims are just for that , the pasture...they take much less time than a proper balanced trim...of course this varies widely from farrier to farrier and barefoot trimmer to barefoot trimmer. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Oh sheesh! Hope none of those people ever hear about Hunter, the Tennessee Trotting Horse, who does a mean stepping pace and has RW'd about twice in two years. Gotta love him, though, he'll go anywhere! Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>>> For the record, I am slightly handicapped and my legs are very spastic. I >>> need a very smooth horse. The trot and most canters don't work for me. I >>> wish they did. I haven't said anything to you on this subject, Pam, but that attitude rankles me. Your horse has feelings and isn't an ATV. If you want - or need - a smooth horse, then BUY one who's really, inherently smooth. OR take lessons and learn to ride the gaits your horse has - you might be surprised how much you can improve. (I'm speaking from personal experience. I didn't walk for a week after I broke my back, and I used a walker for weeks after that. I was a physical mess for almost two years...but lessons helped me get back riding, arguably better than ever before.) Don't try to force a horse to be something they aren't, just for your convenience. If you really love this horse, then accept what she is, and/or learn to live with the gaits that you can she can agree on - even if that means you never do anything but walk on her. I have as much of a horse addiction as anyone, but I know that I do not have a RIGHT to ride, and I certainly don't have a RIGHT to ride any horse at any gait. Riding is a privilege, and after my injury I learned to appreciate every day I can enjoy that privilege. Horses have rights too, and one of those is that they should be accepted for what they are. Besides, didn't you say that you just bought a Friesian mix? That horse isn't gaited, right? Wasn't that you who said that? Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1155 - Release Date: 11/27/2007 8:30 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:58:12 -0500, you wrote: >I know plenty of people whose horses mostly go barefoot, but who put shoes >on them for trail riding/show season Doesn't everybody do that? Even here, it's very, very unusual for any horse of any breed to need shoes when it's not being ridden, unless it has a specific medical problem. The other thing that bugs me - the idea that a barefoot trim and a pasture trim are two different things. A good, balanced trim is a good, balanced trim. Period. "Barefoot Nazis". I like that - very apt. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>> I like debbie too. Debbie is cool Debbie is very cool! >>I like her track system Huginn and Dixie LOVE the track that Debbie has in Huginn's Pasture (at Debbie's house). >> it has to be the pumpkin pie syndrome. Or way too much shopping! Let's remember what this season is all about, it ain;t shopping, it's Peace on Mother Earth. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>> again, i think we are confusing barefoot with "barefoot" as in pasture barefoot to trimming for "barefoot" as in wild horse? Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I haven't put shoes on any of my horses for 20+ years and they did just fine. It wasn't a barefoot trim it was just a good trim. For the record, I am slightly handicapped and my legs are very spastic. I need a very smooth horse. The trot and most canters don't work for me. I wish they did.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> Please believe me when I say...I have met "Barefooting Fanatics" and > Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you > shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. no way! people like that exist?? janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
>>> Please believe me when I say...I have met "Barefooting Fanatics" and Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. Barefoot fanatics won't ride with you...? That's past "fanatic" and into what I call the "Barefoot Nazis." Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Raven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Geez..you guys. I don't know why some of you are picking on Debbie. I > feel that way, so I wonder how she must be feeling. > i just feel like there is some confusion, some misunderstanding... i personally am confused. I feel like she is talking about one thing and people are disagreeing talking about another thing. I like debbie too. Debbie is cool, and I like her track system altho I would never put down gravel for my horses to walk across on purpose since I have a sorta fear and loathing of gravel since it gave jas a lethal stone bruise one time. but I get it that you should try and toughen their feet :) maybe everyone should just chill until we get over our thanksgiving sugar withdrawals. Everyone on the gaited list is maddern the dickens at me for saying the running walk is nearly extinct in the waliking horse breed and heck even Lee Z said that many times and Liz says it all the time but I say it and everyone acts like 1. they never heard it before and 2. I must be from a part of the country where walking horses are mutated or something because gee, ALL their foxtrotters just runningwalk everywhere they go! all of them! and when i said you should love your poor ol stepping pacing walker like Jas for what he is they came swarming out like fireants and one person said she's personally cured many many horses of the stepping pace. ! amazing. it has to be the pumpkin pie syndrome. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Geez..you guys. I don't know why some of you are picking on Debbie. I feel that way, so I wonder how she must be feeling. I have know Debbier ...for many, many years...seems like forever. And the whole time I have known Debbie...she has been a barefooter. Sure, off and on over they years, she has mentioned barefooting to me, but NOT ONCE...did she shove it down my throat or tell me that I was a bad horse owner for shoeing my horses. In fact...Debbie has always supported my decision to shoe my horses, knowing that I was making the best decision that I could make...for MY HORSES. During this past year...as I was transitioning Huginn from shoes to barefooting, she supported me and gave me a ton of help. Sure...I don't do it the way she does it..but she still supports me. And I know that if I decide to show Huginn, she would give me "the look" ...but she would support my decision. Please believe me when I say...I have met "Barefooting Fanatics" and Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. Geez...guys...let's be nice to each other. Please. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
again, i think we are confusing barefoot with "barefoot"... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 05:14:28PM -0600, Debbie K. wrote: > I know that going barefoot is a huge commitment and not everyone has > the ability to do it... for me, going barefoot is a personal > choice... i happen to know two people who go barefoot (except when in places that require shoes, such as restaurants) pretty much all the time, by choice. i gather it does require quite the commitment, at least to begin with, but after awhile it is not esp. uncomfortable. i was just wondering if any of the barefoot-horse advocates here had made such choices for themselves. (neither of my barefoot-people friends keeps horses.) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I AM DONE FOR NOW... I feel picked on with every dam word I say, I AM DONE... if you want to KNOW about barefooting, fine, write me privately, if you want to pick apart every dam word I say, then think twice about emailing me, cause I will not reply... sorry to you who have been polite and want to know, but dam it, I am tired of looking at every email and feeling like I am being targeted for riding barefoot and talking about it... I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I know that going barefoot is a huge commitment and not everyone has the ability to do it... Why is it a huge commitment? If the horses are suitable for barefoot, they can do it. If it's THAT hard to transition to, maybe it's not being done correctly, or maybe the circumstances aren't right for that horse to go without shoes. I know plenty of people whose horses mostly go barefoot, but who put shoes on them for trail riding/show season, or for some other specific, finite reason. I know people who pull their horse's shoes for the winter and put the shoes back when they need them. That's basically the attitude we had when we pulled our horse's shoes 17-18 years ago - we knew we weren't going to be riding hard for a while, so we pulled them, bought EZ boots, and found we never needed them again. It was easy. I never really heard this attitude about barefoot being a "huge commitment" until the nouveau Barefoot Nazis hit the scene about 8-10 years ago. Up until then, barefoot was an easy choice for some of us, one that didn't have to be all or nothing. I DO believe barefoot is better, when it works, and I do believe that more horses could be barefoot than are. But when I hear people talk about how hard it is to transition to barefoot...well, let's just say that I suspect they are setting me to so they can sell me something. Sheesh, why did it suddenly become difficult when a few people started selling books and clinics on the subject? Barefoot CAN be easy, and it should be. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
For the Record, I personally am trying Not to judge, I did state that putting shoes on a horse to make it gait, when it is perfectly sound on the trails ridden means to me that the horse is not naturally gaited... I was reminded that it might also not be trimmed correctly, which I should have added... I know that going barefoot is a huge commitment and not everyone has the ability to do it... for me, going barefoot is a personal choice... I think more horses can go barefoot then are at the moment. I think it is easier done then one thinks is is going to be, it is not really cheaper, I feel I represent the barefoot world in pretty normal, to extreme trail riders on many terrains... and if I can go barefoot in this area on the trails I ride on, then I think many more people can go barefoot then are... I don't mean to come across judgemental at all.. if I am, I am sorry I try to stay calm, cool and collected now when discussing it... I think where people really need to start is when the foal is born... lots of exercise, lots of movement, start from the get go with foals, and yes better breeding and I think barefoot will be easier from the beginning... the barefoot trim is different then a typical pasture trim... and I am not sure if people are aware of all of this, we are discussing this very subject on the barefoothorsecare list, there are many who are much better at explaining things then I am on that list... so, I welcome any of you to join it -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
> I'll send you one if you like, I have some left (can't say they really > made any difference whatsoever at the dentist, I was still shaking > like a bloody leaf ; ( ) you should have asked for laughing gas. I had that one time and I kept telling them it had no affect on me, then they started drilling a little kid in the next room and he started screaming and I started laughing and couldnt stop, I was holding my belly and weeping it was so funny. sorta embarrassing later actually... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:35:56 -0600, you wrote: >i think i need a valium too. I'll send you one if you like, I have some left (can't say they really made any difference whatsoever at the dentist, I was still shaking like a bloody leaf ; ( ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I get SOO fed up with barefoot evangelists in other countries > telling me that all my riding horses would be fine without shoes if > only I would persevere with them and so on, when I have spent > literally years attempting to convert several different horses, and > had no luck whatsoever, at least with front feet. > > I think the valium's worn off, BTW. > > Mic > i agree! same here the opposite way! I get sick of hearing my horses should have special trims, shoes to gait, boots etc. My horses are trimmed to natural angles and barefooted and walk in sand 24/7. they dont need no shoes! it gets ridiculous when people in other areas try to tell people things sometimes. I have had people tell me our coastal bermuda hay is inferior.?? maybe it is where they are. But here its the best there is! I could feed alfalfa but it cost four times as much and i would have to ship it in from far away. And feed, oh lord dont go there. My horses do so well on purina strategy, and people say oh thats terrible, you should use blah blah, and I am thinking hmm, and pay shipping for fifty pound sacks of feed to be air mailed to me from hundreds of miles away?? people are nutty sometimes. I have had people tell me i shouldnt feed my horses at all. ?? every week this summer people with nicer pastures than mine were arrested for starving their horses, mine stand ankle deep in sand all day, umn, what are they supposed to live on?? air?? i think i need a valium too. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > We shoe QH with such small feet, and flat, I wonder what has happened > to that breed where you have this enormous horse on tiny little feet. > i know exactly what happened--- western pleasure showing. and when you pull the shoes they are lame as ducks. often irrecoverably so. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:37:27 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >And it would be good for the barefoot movement if the >promoters had a little more compassion and a little less judgment for >those of us who do need to put shoes on for protection. YES! I think people also forget that the climate the horse lives in also makes a big difference. For instance in the UK where it's often wet, followed by very dry, all year round, so the feet dry out then get soaked every five minutes, combined with mud/hard ground etc etc, many horses just cannot cope with barefoot, no matter how willing the owner. And that's the view of the Farrier's Registration Council and people like laminitis expert vet Robert Eustace, not just my personal view. I get SOO fed up with barefoot evangelists in other countries telling me that all my riding horses would be fine without shoes if only I would persevere with them and so on, when I have spent literally years attempting to convert several different horses, and had no luck whatsoever, at least with front feet. I think the valium's worn off, BTW. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
--- "Debbie K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > No, if they need protection I put on boa's, very rarely does > this happen.. > > > > Thats wonderful for you. However some people need the protection > > because of their home pastureyou can not wear boas 24-7. > > > > Skye, this is beginning to sound like an arguement... I have no > intention of being part of an arguement with you.. Not trying to make one...just got went a little too quick on that email and came across a little short , sorry. I now believe that your comment is the Exception rather > then the rule... > > and if I had that problem, I would be composting every pile of poop, every wasted morsal of food, every leaf, every blade of grass, every weed I found to give my horses a safe place to walk and stand... kind of the opposite of what I did with all my gravel... Its just that some owners do not have that as a choice in their life, or because their horse has flat soles or bad breeding where breeding for feet did not matter...I could keep going. And some people do not want to make the transition and see their horse hobbling around in pain...yes Dr. Strausser has made quite an impression in the barefoot world. I am glad, and happy that more people are coming around to barefoot, we promote it as Farriers actually. But not everyone can do it for many reasons. And it would be good for the barefoot movement if the promoters had a little more compassion and a little less judgment for those of us who do need to put shoes on for protection. I believe it was Karen who brought up that some breeds do better barefoot and other breeds do not...of course there are always exceptions to that. We find that Arabs and Icelandic are usually a good bet, better feet... We have yet to shoe a TB with Good feet...and we shoe quite a few of them here, and some with what a TB person would call Exceptional breeding (Daughters of Kentucky Derby winners, and retired past winners that are here in their retirement homes) None of them would be a candidate, their soles are flat, walls are thin and shelly, they chip, crack, split...but boy can they gallop! At a race track they might get shod 4-5 times per week...insane I know, but that is the industry, and the industry of breeding many horses that eventually become trail or dressage horses. We shoe QH with such small feet, and flat, I wonder what has happened to that breed where you have this enormous horse on tiny little feet. Since its our business and we would rather see a barefoot horse..we really try, and we have learned that not every horse in every situation can do it..the horses that people keep are not wild and are not living in a wild situation and a lot of the ones we see probably could not make it with the feet that they have been breed with. Another human error. Lets hope Icelandics do not come to the same place Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
