Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>>> At the time the owner was me! ; ) Oh well, never have been that >>> bothered about being a cool kid. Being a "cool kid" is an encumbrance, and life is simply to short to worry about that sort of rubbish. It's MUCH more fun to find your own drummer to march to. ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
> Talking of hair/manes etc, the horse in the attached photo got 7.5 for > her mane. An average mark. Why? Because it's not on both sides of her > neck. Oh, dear. Well, back to legs... I'd like to see them really concentrate on getting straight legs, so that they don't interfere with one another, and move functionally correct. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:56:06 -0400, you wrote: >My first suspicion would be simply that her owner >wasn't greasing the pockets of the judges enough, or wasn't one of the "cool >kids".. or >maybe the owner wasn't shopping for horses from the judge's cronies. At the time the owner was me! ; ) Oh well, never have been that bothered about being a cool kid. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>>> Talking of hair/manes etc, the horse in the attached photo got 7.5 for her >>> mane. An >>> average mark. Why? Because it's not on both sides of her neck. Now, the way >>> most >>> people get the mane to go on both sides is to plait it over and fasten it >>> with a neck >>> cover until just before the show, which is of course SURE to be inherited >>> by any >>> foal... Yep, that's how genetics work - not. My first suspicion would be simply that her owner wasn't greasing the pockets of the judges enough, or wasn't one of the "cool kids".. or maybe the owner wasn't shopping for horses from the judge's cronies. It's very disturbing to me to see how tight the little community is. I've seen cases where the judges stay at the homes of owners of horses they are judging...when, surprise, surprise, the owners horses score VERY well. Duh. Yep, that's how genetics work - NOT! Some of the worst legs I've seen on an Icelandic were on a recently imported stallion who got about 7.5-8's on his leg scores. He was narrow-based with cow- and sickle-hocks, and he toed out in front. Yet, 7.5 and 8 are average and above scores. No way should we consider those legs "average" when we DO have plenty of good legs in the breed. No wonder we have bone spavin in the breed. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>>> Yes, that's something I've noticed too. The excuse given is that the >>> standard has >>> improved over the years so the judges need to mark more in the lower ranges >>> for >>> "average" horses to leave room for good horses. Excuse me??? And that is one of the many reasons that BLUP as used in this breed will never be valid. You cannot possibibly know how well you are moving towards a goal if the goal keeps shifting. That's not valid science, nor is it valid statistics. I read somewhere recently that the failing of every breed is when people try to "improve" the breed. I believe that. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>Can you point us to some video and pictures of a breeding eval? > You know me, I've crap at the video thing. There are a few pics from UK breeding shows on the IHSGB website (see http://www.ihsgb.co.uk/breeding_show_07_pics.htm )but they are mostly ridden ones. It's usually pretty hard to get decent photos of the running up part of the assessment from head on as that's where the judges stand and the public are not allowed to be right by them. Of course the ridden bit is done on a straight track, so again it's sideways on. People only seem to have videos of the ridden bit on YouTube. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:00:34 -0400, you wrote: >You never watch the Landsmott and World Championship videos...? And you've >never watched the Walter Feldman videos? Actually no, I don't bother watching the Landsmot or WC videos, I find them pretty boring just watching horses going round and round and round, and I'm not a big TV fan at the best of times. I watched the WF video when it first came out and not since. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] breeding
> make several comments on "not enough feathers".
That's so silly. Why don't they concentrate on getting good legs? or
horses that don't need protective boots lest they cut their own leg off if
they move ("Breed the Boots Out of the Breed").
Judy
http://iceryder.net
http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] breeding
I heard them make several comments on "not enough feathers". Oh shoot. I guess I blew it when I clipped Tosca's off. I confess I loved the gorgeous flaxen feathers on a Welsh cob filly I once owned. They were luxuriant and beautiful. I'm afraid the crossbred Tosca would fail the feather test. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>>> If we do not use a system it is like 'pinning the tail on the donkey'. >>> We have an excellent internationally recognised well documented system >>> of assessment and we should use it to help us make informed decisions. >>> Are the odds of pinning the tail in the correct place on the donkey >>> better or worse than winning the Euro lottery:-)" Who says it's excellent? The only people I've heard call it that are puffed up chest-beaters within the breed. And, actually, I think it's a lot worse to have a bad standard than no standard at all. Without the "breeding evaluations" maybe more people would look to knowledgeable horsemen outside this little closed-circle. >>> What type of system bases gait scored on manipulated gaits and expects >>> future generations to inherit them? Here's another example of something ludicrous I read just this week. Someone said her mare got a lower conformation score as she aged. Why? She's had a few babies and showed some of the unfortunate signs all of us who've been pregnant have discovered - the effects of gravity. But, for heaven's sakes, these are supposed to be BREEDING evaluations. It makes NO sense that a mare should be penalized for doing the very thing the evaluations are for. With that logic, I suppose men should move on to a new, younger trophy wife after each wife has a baby, since that implies that the DNA somehow gets corrupted if the outside of the "package" isn't quite so pristine any more. Sheesh. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>> I haven't studied the conformation goals; I would guess that they would >> be OK... but, like you say, not being recognized. I DID study them, in detail when I was starting to breed. They are so vague that they are meaningless. >> wasn't as good or something like that - and the judge told me she didn't >> have enough fetlock hair. Now, that's ridiculous Yep. Eveyone knows that old saying: no hair, no horse. (NOT!) I remember reading a comment about fetlock hair on some horse's evaluation once, so yours isn't the only time that ever happened. That shows how ludicrous the scores are. The legs are the basis of the horse's health and strength, along with his back. It had never even occurred to me that HAIR would even be included in the leg scores. "Feathers" should be counted about as strongly as mane and tail - about 0.001%. >> Absolutely. That's probably a good representation of the breeding >> evaluation process as it stands now. I think so. >>> It shows. It shows to those outside the breed, but there is the >>> inability to recognize it within the breed in my opinion. When I was talking to the herd manager about the Outer Banks horses, I had to grimace a few times. Some of the symptoms he gave for worrying that the Bankers may be starting to show some early evidence of "genetic collapse" are symptoms that are also common in this breed. The difference is that there are probably 120,000 or so Icelandics in the world. There are 120 Banker horses left in the world. That's very sad. It's also very embarrassing when people in this breed go around with their chests all puffed up in pride over these primitive practices. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>>>Really? Where are all those winging pictures coming from? > US breed shows, or at least the ones I've seen on this list anyway! ; ) You never watch the Landsmott and World Championship videos...? And you've never watched the Walter Feldman videos? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
>>Really? Where are all those winging pictures coming from? > > US breed shows, or at least the ones I've seen on this list anyway! > ; ) > > I've seen plenty of winging Icelandics, but not really bad ones being > assessed. Can you point us to some video and pictures of a breeding eval? Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:58:41 -0700, you wrote: I have never yet seen bad winging or cross tracking at a breeding show. > >Really? Where are all those winging pictures coming from? US breed shows, or at least the ones I've seen on this list anyway! ; ) I've seen plenty of winging Icelandics, but not really bad ones being assessed. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
> As a "for instance", it seems common for judges to note that a horse > is very close behind while standing or walking, but if the legs are > further apart when it trots, the mark given is raised. You're kidding?!?! >>>I have never yet seen bad winging or cross tracking at a breeding show. Really? Where are all those winging pictures coming from? Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:16:48 -0700, you wrote: >we are in the 21st century where we have the available technology to do >"replay" to see the winging, cross-tracking As a "for instance", it seems common for judges to note that a horse is very close behind while standing or walking, but if the legs are further apart when it trots, the mark given is raised. I have never yet seen bad winging or cross tracking at a breeding show. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
> In what way do you disagree with the FIZO goals for conformation? Or > do you? I personally think the goals are OK but all too often the > judges "don't see" bad faults on horses with great speed and action - > and often they also don't see fairly obvious conformation faults. I haven't studied the conformation goals; I would guess that they would be OK... but, like you say, not being recognized. Why are they not recognizing the conformation problems when the horse stands in front of them? (in other words, it shouldn't be expected to recognize all the conformation faults when the horse is speeding down the track; altho we are in the 21st century where we have the available technology to do "replay" to see the winging, cross-tracking, not to mention the yank, yank, yanking) It's like someone saying something, but doing the opposite. Point being that they don't know that they aren't walking the talk. That is a BIG problem! There is a connection missing between conformation and movement; a lack of understanding of biomechanics and physiology. It shows. It shows to those outside the breed, but there is the inability to recognize it within the breed in my opinion. > wasn't as good or something like that - and the judge told me she > didn't have enough fetlock hair. Now, that's ridiculous Absolutely. That's probably a good representation of the breeding evaluation process as it stands now. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:31:36 -0700, you wrote: >What type of system bases gait scored on manipulated gaits and expects >future generations to inherit them? Agreed. >It seems to me that the judges, trainers, and breeders don't know >conformation or gaits! In what way do you disagree with the FIZO goals for conformation? Or do you? I personally think the goals are OK but all too often the judges "don't see" bad faults on horses with great speed and action - and often they also don't see fairly obvious conformation faults. One of my most memorable moments was at a breeding assessment in the UK a few years ago when I had a mare of mine judged. Previously she had received 8.0 for her legs, this time she got 7.5. I asked why, what had changed? - expecting the comment to be the tendon definition wasn't as good or something like that - and the judge told me she didn't have enough fetlock hair. Now, that's ridiculous enough in itself. but this particular mare has got enough feather for 5 Icelandics! Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:23:18 -0700, you wrote: >Mic, I wasn't sure if Nick wrote the whole thing, or if he wrote the first >half and you responded in the last half. It just wasn't clear to me who was >saying what. Sorry, it is rather unclear - it's written by the UK breeding leader Tim in response to emails from Nick, saying FIZO only rewards competition horses, and they are by definition uncomfortable, and from me, saying competition horses are not necessarily uncomfortable, but FIZO rewards "highly trained" horses and training is not inherited. all the best Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
> Mic contends that little emphasis is placed on some of the more > serious conformation faults such as crooked legs, poor hooves, cow > hocks etc - if the horse has enough speed and high action, these can > increase the overall mark substantially so that conformation faults > are overshadowed. I agree with this. It seems that poor conformation is ignored or accepted. > If we do not use a system it is like 'pinning the tail on the donkey'. > We have an excellent internationally recognised well documented system > of assessment and we should use it to help us make informed decisions. > Are the odds of pinning the tail in the correct place on the donkey > better or worse than winning the Euro lottery:-)" The problem, for me, is that the current system stinks. It is not based in any way on good conformation or good natural gaits. What type of system bases gait scored on manipulated gaits and expects future generations to inherit them? It seems to me that the judges, trainers, and breeders don't know conformation or gaits! Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
> This comment was made by our current breeding leader. and I wondered > how people here would feel about it?: Mic, I wasn't sure if Nick wrote the whole thing, or if he wrote the first half and you responded in the last half. It just wasn't clear to me who was saying what. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
don't worry about it. in 25 years it will be just like walkers and rackers... people looking for a great sound naturally gaited horse will be looking for the old foundation non showhorse lines. history repeats itself. janice
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding
but what is a heritable trait is the willingness to learn and please the owner. (Otherwise known as good character and temperament.) Good training does maximise the potential of a horse but if the horse does not have natural talent then it will not get the perfect 10 for all its gaits no matter how 'fantastic' or long the training. I so agree with this, Mic. I was buying a Thoroughbred mare once to use as a dressage horse and I asked her breeder, an old race horse man, how her sire had performed at the track. He sort of barked back at me, I thought you weren't going to race this mare!" Well, I had no intention of taking her to the track, but I had found that horses that perform well in one venue because they have good minds, excellent conformation and a nice work ethic, also perform well in other venues. This mare later went to a big evaluation in California and was judged the horse with the best conformational potential as a dressage horse that was there that day. She immediately went into someone's broodmare band. I was a little disappointed, she was a lovely lovely mare. I would have liked to see how she did in more advanced dressage than I had ridden. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] breeding for gait
On May 13, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Janice McDonald wrote: > at the horse show my friend was asking a man who bereds gaited mules > if he had any gaited jacks. he said gaited jacks are a misnomer that > there is no such thing. he said when looking for gait to breed, you > look for a jack that "is on the pacey side" that the most gait a jack > gets is usually a stepping pace. He was interesting to talk to. He > had a wonderfully gaited mule at the show but it did not RW it > saddleracked, but it was nice and smooth looking... he said he breeds > a jack on the pacey side with a well gaited horse, doesnt matter which > smooth gait. > Janice In Peru they have very nice gaited jacks, and even have a competition for the burros in their National show (http://www.ancpcpp.org.pe/concursonacional/resultados.html). The mules that are made from these burros and a well gaited mare are often smoother, with a better timed gait, than any of the horses. <>
Re: [IceHorses] breeding for gait
> > Well, isn't a stepping pace a gait? He doesn't sound > too bright! he was from tennessee haha janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] breeding for gait
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > he said gaited jacks > are a misnomer that > there is no such thing. he said when looking for > gait to breed, you > look for a jack that "is on the pacey side" that the > most gait a jack > gets is usually a stepping pace. Well, isn't a stepping pace a gait? He doesn't sound too bright! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
On 8/28/07, Pam Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>sometimes on these lists I feel like I could > post "they are about to drop a hydrogen bomb on all your homes << > > So I guess I don't understand your postl What do you mean? > just ignore me i was having a frustrated witchy moment and going on and on about how sometimes when i try and make a point it gets bogged down in the minutia. and you are very correct. It is HYPP H/N not HYPP N/P Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
>>>sometimes on these lists I feel like I could post "they are about to drop a hydrogen bomb on all your homes << So I guess I don't understand your postl What do you mean?
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
>>> then several dozens posts "my granny grew lilies, they were yellow and red" My granny only grew orange lilies.Sorry, Janice. I couldn't resist! :) >>> or I could say "a huge paino is about to fall out of a two story building >>> on your head" and someone would post back "I dont know of any pianos on >>> second floors in this area but i do know of several wurlitzer organs, so she must not know what she is talking..." WHUMP shes hit in the head by a huge wurlitzer organ. Oh gosh, I'm just cracking up over that one! If I REALLY wanted to get Janice going now, I'd ask, "What's a paino?" But, I'm expecting to see her in person next month, though, so maybe I should step lightly before I get a paino/piano/Wurlitzer on MY head! Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
On 8/27/07, Pam Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> a HYPP attack<<< > > My daughters show horse is H/N not sure where you got N/P. Not sure > what N/P stands for.Unless they have changed it in the last 5 yrs. i got the letter wrong. sometimes on these lists I feel like I could post "they are about to drop a hydrogen bomb on all your homes and someone would post back "I didnt know they even have hydrogen bombs anymore, I know they have atomic bombs and nuclear bombs..." or I could say "a huge paino is about to fall out of a two story building on your head" and someone would post back "I dont know of any pianos on second floors in this area but i do know of several wurlitzer organs, so she must not know what she is talking..." WHUMP shes hit in the head by a huge wurlitzer organ. it gets very tiring for someone like me, who knows what I am talking about but often get little details wrong cause of older age and bad memory. Sometimes I even think its deliberate, to divert people from the POINT, the truth that may be uncomfortable for some. Like if you want to talk about gait, inevitably it goes into post after post about "trot is gait, canter is gait" I mean who gives a rats *(^*(^ we all know that, dont we?? Or you can post a pic of an icelandic horse being evaluated thats say for instance, ewe necked and paddling and point it out and people will post back "oh look at the beautiful lilys growing in the field behind him!" then several dozens posts "my granny grew lilies, they were yellow and red" then several posts "I had a red lily by my porch step but my dog stepped on it and it died" it just makes me in-freakin-sane. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
--- IceDog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I suppose it is people justifying breeding carriers<< And sickle cell anemia in humans could be eliminated in ONE generation if carriers would do the right thing and not have children. Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
Two of our four at home kids have seizure disorders. Seizures are not painful, but they can be frightening for the person who is experiencing one, and they could be painful if a fall results. It seems as if a horse experiencing this sort of attack might also experience fear and possible injury caused by a fall or thrashing about as the mare in the video did. He is a very lucky horse indeed to have been given the gift of a a useful life despite his diagnosis. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
> and i have heard people say even if you breed HYPP n/n to HYPP n/n you > can have it crop up. I suppose it is people justifying breeding carriers with it can crop up anyhow! I find it very hard to believe unless the genetic test isn't accurate. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses and Icelandic Sheepdogs email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.toltallyice.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
>>> a HYPP attack<<< My daughters show horse is H/N not sure where you got N/P. Not sure what N/P stands for.Unless they have changed it in the last 5 yrs. He (gelding) carries the gene but only a percentage of those horses that are H/N will be symptomatic. We have had him 8 yrs and have seen two attacks. One, where he had a heavy blanket on in the spring (so he would shed out) and it got unseasonably quickly warm out and the other when riding him up a huge hill and he wasn't conditioned. The one he just fell over. Laid there for 15 seconds and then got right back up. The other one his eyes started rolling back and I gave him his meds and corn syrup and he was fine. She showed him in 90 degree weather without problems. I had talked to a vet who had been researching it and she informed me that these attacks do not happen while they are being ridden. So we took the chance and bought him and he has been an outstanding show and trail horse. We do nothing different. Grass hay and oats is what he gets. The need to have lower levels of potassium in their diets. Alfalfa hay usually has more percentage of potassium then grass but not always. I believe the potassium somehow shoots into their bloodstream when they are having these attacks which makes the horse paralyzed. Don't quote me on that but it is something similar w potassium and their blood. He is 16 yrs old and yes maybe someday he will die of an attack but I don't think so. I often wonder how many attacks we have not seen but I keep my horses at my place and am around them lots. We have been lucky and I think it is terrible that yes, they still breed these horses that carry the gene. I don't think it is painful when they have them. Does anyone know?
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
On 8/27/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In a message dated 8/27/2007 1:16:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) . > > That was shocking what was happening to that mare? I have no knowledge of > this, please explain. Sylvia When the American Quarter Horse Association books were "open" a man drove by and saw the most magnificent stallion he had ever laid eyes on standing in a pasture, and he bought him. His name was "Impressive". He was HUGE, bulky, that bulldog quarterhorse look they love to show at halter. he started winning every show around and people started breeding mares to him like crazy. Now he's been dead for years and turns out he carried a lethal gene for a disease called HYPP that he passed to all his offspring and they passed to all their offspring. He was such a popular SHOW horse tho that all the darling ethical slime ball show people DELIBERATELY bred for HYPP and still do! cause one symptom of the disease is bulked up muscles so they look good at halter showing. Thats why if you see a AQHA horse for sale and it is "impressive" bred it has to say on the papers HYPP N/N (negative) or HYPP N/P (half positive, means they carry but dont have it) or the ones that are HYPP p/p meaning they actually have full blown HYPP. its disgusting to breed deliberately an animal that will most likely die a horrible suffering death and pass it on to offspring just so they can win ribbons. GAG janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
and i have heard people say even if you breed HYPP n/n to HYPP n/n you can have it crop up. Janice
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
Well, that's one I'd rather not have watched. I just had to wonder why they were filming instead of trying to get the foal safely out of the stall ... or perhaps they were trying. Pretty awful stuff. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
That was shocking what was happening to that mare? I have no knowledge of this, please explain. Sylvia http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/hypp/hypp_facts.html It's a genetic mutation that happened to affect the most bred QH Halter Horse sire of all time, Impressive. Since the condition is inherited, now it's pretty widespread in the breed. It took a while for the connection to Impressive to be made, and by then, it was rampant. It's amazing how man offspring a horse can sire (and grand-sire) in a period of 20-30 years. A lot of breeders "line-bred' to Impressive, so that upped the chances of it showing up. At least now, there is a genetic test for the condition. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
In a message dated 8/27/2007 1:16:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) . That was shocking what was happening to that mare? I have no knowledge of this, please explain. Sylvia ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
On 8/27/07, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > A little off-topic, but something to be considered in regard to breeding > genetics, a HYPP attack: > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=rE-kuYDrNEU oh i dont have to go look thank you, i have seen it in person. a terrible agonizing death, a AQHA halter champion, purchased two years before when his brother by the same parents died of HYPP episode. I wanted to throttle the owner when she arrived and the first words out of her mouth as he lay thrashing were "if you dont die I swear I will never skip your medicine again!" I hate them freaking AQHA halter types. they disgust me to the core. they make big lick sorers look like mother theresa. in regard to breeding... one interesting thing... I saw a mule breeder on tv and he said when you breed a donkey and a horse you can absolutely be guranteed it will have the mule ears and cow hocks from the donkey. he said they may not be AS extreme in some cases but he said he doubts theres ever been a mule born without the signature ears and hocks. So thats a case where you breed a + B of two entirely different species and get the same thing every time. weird huh. ears and hocks must be BEYOND dominant. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
A little off-topic, but something to be considered in regard to breeding genetics, a HYPP attack: http://youtube.com/watch?v=rE-kuYDrNEU Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
Now, there's an interesting genetic question. I always learned that when it comes to genetics, A + B always = A or B, not a mix of the two (ie if you breed a horse with a big head with one with a small head, you will get either a big or a small head, not a medium head) In the example of the head, well, the head isn't really just one entity, even though we see it that way. You have the size/shape of the skull, the length/shape of the jaw, the diameter of the muzzle, etc. - several bones and joints to combine and recombine in many combinations. Some breeds of horses typically have "typey" heads - QH usually have strong, square jawlines, where Arab fads have leaned more and more to the teacup muzzles. I've seen crosses where I could see elements of both parents...and honestly, I can't ever remember seeing an Arab cross that had a really tiny muzzle. Think of it like humans - my husband's family is tall all around - his mom was 5'11" and his dad 6'1", and his "little" brother is 6'5". Cary is 6'2". My family is mostly very short with only a couple of exceptions - my mom is 5'0" and my dad was 5'4". I'm 5'0". Cary and I have one daughter, who's right on the national average for women. She's 5'4", neither tall nor short. Even eye colors will "blend" somewhat in color. Often you see one blue-eyed parent with a brown-eyed spouse and they will produce a green or hazel-eyed child. Cary has light-brown/hazel eyes from such a marriage. I have my father's chin but my mother's jawline, so I didn't literally get my head from either one of them. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
Or could the A and C from the horses in front of you, actually carry some B in their genes but it doesn't show on them, but may show on their offspring? First of all, you have to be sure that A and C are controlled by single genes for that to work to begin with. Height in humans can be influenced by length of calf bones, length of thigh bones, vertebral size and spacing, the size of head... Does one single set of genes control all of those factors? I don't think so. Then you have the non-genetic influences: nutritional factors, neonatal influences, management practices Man, have you ever noticed the range of heights that one tall parent and one short parent can produce. Tall Cary and short me produced an average height child...but I think that was simply the luck of the draw for that particular child. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
> Now, there's an interesting genetic question. I always learned that > when it comes to genetics, A + B always = A or B, not a mix of the two > (ie if you breed a horse with a big head with one with a small head, > you will get either a big or a small head, not a medium head). Yet in > my sole Icelandic (short tail) cross Welsh (long tail), the lamb has a > medium length tail. Curious > > Mic > > > Mic (Michelle) Rushen > the short tail parent was actually medium tail but the tail was stunted by some environmental cause, hey, it could happen! :) janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Genetics
> Now, there's an interesting genetic question. I always learned that > when it comes to genetics, A + B always = A or B, not a mix of the two > (ie if you breed a horse with a big head with one with a small head, > you will get either a big or a small head, not a medium head). Yet in > my sole Icelandic (short tail) cross Welsh (long tail), the lamb has a > medium length tail. Curious Good topic! What about A + C will, or will not, equal B? For instance, if you have a horse with long ears, and bred to a horse with short ears, will you get medium sized ears? What about mules who have a resultant B factor in regard to ears? Or could the A and C from the horses in front of you, actually carry some B in their genes but it doesn't show on them, but may show on their offspring? I think it would be safe to say don't breed A + C in hopes to get B, but breed B + B to get B. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
> Oh, that reminds me, we're going to have a place on the website > where > Icelandic owners can have their own pages to upload pictures and > videos!! > > We could put them there, under your farm name. > That will be really nice. Let us know when its ready. > I can help you do something, video-wise. I think it would be much > better to > show a horse that gaits naturally, and without the tight nosebands, > in a > manner that's mainstream trail riding, than to expose potential > buyers to > the professional videos > > > Judy That would be cool.Sally rides Bylgia up at our pasture, and Funi here at our farm.both gait nicely...Bylgia she has had for 5 years and can ride her very well without much tack, Funi she is still getting to know, and is already thinking of ways to start changing his bit.and she has tried every saddle on him, to no avail, so we have ordered another saddle, we are hoping it will fit him. getting a new horse, means going through the tack thing all over again. Skyfaxa, well she will be moved to our farm in the beginning of September and will not be suitable for filming untill I would say a couple of months after that.she still looks 11 months pregnate! So does Dis for that matter! The other 2 are fineas the babies...I will edit a photo cd I have of our babies.we have some good shots of 2 of skyfaxa babies together, they are both silver dapple, one is a brown silver dapple, he looks like a leopard, there are so many distinct dapples, and the other one is a black silver dapple, very striking together. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
> colt is 3 months old and we lovingly refer to her as Skyfatsa... That's funny! > But it can be something I work on, and mabye send directly to you > Judy. Yes, that would be fine. I can edit them and upload them somewhere for you. Oh, that reminds me, we're going to have a place on the website where Icelandic owners can have their own pages to upload pictures and videos!! We could put them there, under your farm name. > since where we live no one really knows what a rack is, we > use the videos of Dan Slott and of one that was made in Iceland and > shown I think on Discovery channel years ago > Since I can not produce a video like the ones I have access to I have > not made videosand have not really focused on getting our horses > on film..people come over and they can feel it for themselves > when they ride. > making headway with the people who are looking for something > differentpeople who want to ride and have fun I can help you do something, video-wise. I think it would be much better to show a horse that gaits naturally, and without the tight nosebands, in a manner that's mainstream trail riding, than to expose potential buyers to the professional videos Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Well lets seeI bought Skyfaxa because her preferred gait out > in > > the pasture is tolt... > > Can you send some video? > > That's about the only way we can see if we're all talking about the > same > thing. > > > > We bought Bylgia because Sally loves to ride her > > She loves to tolt, she looks like a war pony going off to battle > when > > she does, it makes us smile. > > Again, would be great to see this in video. > > Just get short clips so that it's not a problem to upload (you can > send them > directly to me if you want and I'll edit and upload to a site). > > Thanks! > > > Judy Well they are out in the Ka'u pasture right now..raising babies. I will ask my friend if her camers has a video option, mabye we can get it..Skyfaxa is not moving at a very fast rate right now, her colt is 3 months old and we lovingly refer to her as Skyfatsa...she is pretty wide. Ha! As am I. But it can be something I work on, and mabye send directly to you Judy.since where we live no one really knows what a rack is, we use the videos of Dan Slott and of one that was made in Iceland and shown I think on Discovery channel years agowe give these out to prospective buyers to gain more interest, after they watch those we have them out to ride, starting off in a round pen, then if they are actually riders, take them out on the trails..when they feel the rack out on the trails, they are sold. Everytime. Since I can not produce a video like the ones I have access to I have not made videosand have not really focused on getting our horses on film..people come over and they can feel it for themselves when they ride. Infact, right now we have a shortage of riding horses to sell...there are 2 people who live here who probably will go over to the mainland to purchase other icelandics.1 friend will go to Robyns place, as he has taken clinics there before, and the other friend will go to S. California in September, and would like to go horse shopping then Marketing in an area that is so cowboy, quarterhorsey can be difficult.but we are making headway with the people whop are looking for something differentpeople who want to ride and have fun...we have Icelandics in every district now.its pretty exciting. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
> > That is what has been pushed here on this listand on page 239 of > Lees book. > > > Skye > hahha, wow Skye, you just arent gonna type out those words are you... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
--- Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dis, well we bought her because of different reasonswe > like how > fluid her movements areshe is built nicly, she shows tolt out > in the > field, but canter seems to be her favorite gait...she will canter a > lot then > go down into a tolt. > > > I'm not so sure about that - are you saying that the mare favors > canter over > one of the mid-range gaits? I don't think I've ever seen a horse > who > doesn't have a preferred trot-speed gait, be that a trot, pace, or > something > in the middle...? A playful foal maybe, but a mature Icelandic Well she seems to canter more than all the othersthen she goes down into tolt from canter > mare...? > > >>> Her action again is not high. > > Do you think action affects gaitedness...? > > > Karen Thomas, NC No I do not think it affects it, but for us we are wanting to breed ground covering trail horses, we do not want high action, though I think it looks pretty and flashy, its not what I am breeding for. BAldur fra Bakka who is here has high action, yet is one of the smoothest horses I have ever ridden, with a perfect 4 beat tolt Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/2/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > so to you a tolt is rack. > Janice-- That is what has been pushed here on this listand on page 239 of Lees book. Skye If I am mistaken, then please what is the correct American term for these horses? Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
--- Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Wanda > > > and stocky, shorter neck, but it still comes into the shoulder > nicly. > > She loves to tolt, she looks like a war pony going off to battle > when > > she does, it makes us smile. > > >If she came from Robyn's...I think I rode her. Yes, she's lovely. > > She didn't come from us - it might be Brynja you were thinking > about. > > Robyn No, lets see Bylgia came from Karin Segalshe actually bred her and used her in shows in S. California. She is unusual and just plain Fun! SHe is out in our big pasture in Ka'u with a silver dapple pinto filly at her sidewith about 15 other gaited horses, roaming free (well 2 miles by 3 miles of freedom :) ) I think we are going to breed her to Tjaldur fra Holum this coming winter Very excitedI know color does not matter, but I am hoping for a black and white pinto, and filly would be good too! Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
at the horse show they kept saying "lope your horse, lope." and after about ten classes my husband turns to me and says "why do they keep saying rope your horse and nobody does anything??" HAHAHAHA. but in AQHA showing, "lope" means a canter so slow it appears the horse is for all intents and purposes completely crippled, limping lame. just for some reason that came to mind. My Jaspar's "lope" is so elegant, majestic even. but ever now and then he will have a snit fit and do a little head snake at the canter. Maybe the saddle pinches just then or something. Since he is a horse no saddle on the planet fits. n-o-n-e none. but when he head snakes people will sometimes see it and go "ohhh! Mister jaspar is fired UP today!" and i will go yeah, for him he's just about berserk... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
Dis, well we bought her because of different reasonswe like how fluid her movements areshe is built nicly, she shows tolt out in the field, but canter seems to be her favorite gait...she will canter a lot then go down into a tolt. I'm not so sure about that - are you saying that the mare favors canter over one of the mid-range gaits? I don't think I've ever seen a horse who doesn't have a preferred trot-speed gait, be that a trot, pace, or something in the middle...? A playful foal maybe, but a mature Icelandic mare...? >>> Her action again is not high. Do you think action affects gaitedness...? Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
On 7/2/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: so to you a tolt is rack. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
i went to someones house once to see their new WGC bloodline walking horse. they said it had a cadillac glide ride running walk. When I got there I didnt know how to break it to her that the pronging display tail flag thing all horses do was not a runningwalk bless her heart. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
>>> If she came from Robyn's...I think I rode her. Yes, she's lovely. Thanks Wanda. Real words mean more to me than pedigrees rattled off. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
On 02/07/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > She didn't come from us - it might be Brynja you were thinking about. Brynja...yes of course. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>>a wonderful runningwalk > > > > is not what they, or I for that matter are breeding for. I > want > > > a > > > > good clear tolt/rack...in my Icelandics, now if they have > > > other > > > > easy gaits, I would be fine riding them, but it is not what I > am > > > > breeding for, > > > what is this tolt. define it? > Janice-- I believe there is a whole discussion on that very question.look in Lees book page 26, saddle rack and true rack.I do make up the definations, nor do I get into every split second detail of every step. I know that the horses I ride and own are naturally gaited, they can rack/tolt with ease, with no force, no heavy contacttooo much work. And 5 of them are from world champions and 1st prize stallions.we have oner mare on island that I sold who is much like Skyfaxa, her preferred gait is toltshe can tolt with her head almost touching the ground or up highits weird, she just gaits so nicly with ease. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
Hi Wanda > and stocky, shorter neck, but it still comes into the shoulder nicly. > She loves to tolt, she looks like a war pony going off to battle when > she does, it makes us smile. >If she came from Robyn's...I think I rode her. Yes, she's lovely. She didn't come from us - it might be Brynja you were thinking about. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
> > >>>a wonderful runningwalk > > > is not what they, or I for that matter are breeding for. I want > > a > > > good clear tolt/rack...in my Icelandics, now if they have > > other > > > easy gaits, I would be fine riding them, but it is not what I am > > > breeding for, what is this tolt. define it? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
On 02/07/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > We bought Bylgia because Sally loves to ride hershe has a totally > different build, she is from kolkousi/Akuyreri, so her build is thick > and stocky, shorter neck, but it still comes into the shoulder nicly. > She loves to tolt, she looks like a war pony going off to battle when > she does, it makes us smile. If she came from Robyn's...I think I rode her. Yes, she's lovely. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
> Well lets seeI bought Skyfaxa because her preferred gait out in > the pasture is tolt... Can you send some video? That's about the only way we can see if we're all talking about the same thing. > We bought Bylgia because Sally loves to ride her > She loves to tolt, she looks like a war pony going off to battle when > she does, it makes us smile. Again, would be great to see this in video. Just get short clips so that it's not a problem to upload (you can send them directly to me if you want and I'll edit and upload to a site). Thanks! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding for Tolt
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>a wonderful runningwalk > > is not what they, or I for that matter are breeding for. I want > a > > good clear tolt/rack...in my Icelandics, now if they have > other > > easy gaits, I would be fine riding them, but it is not what I am > > breeding for, > > > Skye, how do you define tolt, and what do you look for in your > breeding > horses? > > I'm not looking for a generic answer such as "I get a stallion that > tolts, > and breed it to a mare that tolts". I'm looking for more specifics > in > conformation, gait, etc. > > Thanks! > > > Judy Well lets seeI bought Skyfaxa because her preferred gait out in the pasture is tolt...she got a nice shoulder, he neck is not too long, nor is it too short, and it goes into her shoulders properly.she has straight legs.her action is not highshe covers ground wellshe has nice conformation overall. Dis, well we bought her because of different reasonswe like how fluid her movements areshe is built nicly, she shows tolt out in the field, but canter seems to be her favorite gait...she will canter a lot then go down into a tolt. Her action again is not high. We bought Bylgia because Sally loves to ride hershe has a totally different build, she is from kolkousi/Akuyreri, so her build is thick and stocky, shorter neck, but it still comes into the shoulder nicly. She loves to tolt, she looks like a war pony going off to battle when she does, it makes us smile. ALl 3 mares have different lines, and color. 2 are out of world champions, which I know you do not value much, the other is from stock that has a really different look which we like. We like a horse to be able to freely without our help, hold its head upI want them to be able to get themselves in a comfortable position to be able to do these gaits. I do not want to help them out with a certain bit, or holding their head up with my hands. I tell you if I could purchase another horse that was sired by Pruther fra Nedra Asi, I would. Everybody loves Skyfaxa and she looks just like her Sire. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
--- Anneliese Virro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > and stallion...and heaven knows, I'll NEVER recoup the cost of my > > barn, sheds, fences, etc! I've done it so far for the joy of the > foals, and > > for the love of the breed, and no way can I ever expect a penny > for the > > many, many hours I've invested. > > > > Hello, my name is Karen, and I'm an Icelandic Horse-aholic... > This is my > > passion, m addiction, but even I have my limits on how much money > I'll lose > > in the name of breeding horses...:) > > > Amen to that! > > However, I do feel that good foals should be priced to take the > cost for > mares, stallions and overhead into consideration. No one, not even > those of > us who can, will continue breeding if it involves continuous huge > losses of > money. That's just not being realistic. In the past, (with a few > exceptions) > I have charged $ 3000 for 8-month-old (that is normal weaning time > for me) - > 12-month-old colts and $ 4,000 for fillies of the same age. But > even then, I > don't break even most of the time. For me, the joy of watching > foals being > born and growing up (it's better than watching television) balances > a > reasonable loss. > > My other excuse is the sharing part. I know that happiness will > come to > those who buy Icelandics - most of the time. I have seen time and > again how > Icelandics have caused life style changes in families, pulling > families > closer together, going out into nature more and also perpetuating > and > spreading of Icelandics making people happy. > > Anneliese Thank you Anneliese, as I obviously could not say that as well as you just did. Talking about breeding Sally and I have decided to sell our Stallion Foss, with a lot of sadness,. One of the reasons is the cost of keeping a Stallion, the fences, management is a big onenot having a space where he can always be with other horses..he is most of the time, but not always... Our friends are buying him back, and they are bringing in 2 other Stallions for the breeding program here that will compliment what we havewe all have had long talks about it, picking out another Stallion that will be good for Icelandics here...So Foss will be living with the Boys club on a farm with no mares, and mares to visit for breeding, and we will have the mares to breed with the Stallions, and both farms will have much easier management issues. I will still get to see him and ride him anytime, but I will miss the nickers and calls in the middle of the night when he goes. He is such an amazing horse. Breeding and the decisions around breeding can be emotionally difficult and costly. S. Lee
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
and stallion...and heaven knows, I'll NEVER recoup the cost of my > barn, sheds, fences, etc! I've done it so far for the joy of the foals, and > for the love of the breed, and no way can I ever expect a penny for the > many, many hours I've invested. > > Hello, my name is Karen, and I'm an Icelandic Horse-aholic... This is my > passion, m addiction, but even I have my limits on how much money I'll lose > in the name of breeding horses...:) Amen to that! However, I do feel that good foals should be priced to take the cost for mares, stallions and overhead into consideration. No one, not even those of us who can, will continue breeding if it involves continuous huge losses of money. That's just not being realistic. In the past, (with a few exceptions) I have charged $ 3000 for 8-month-old (that is normal weaning time for me) - 12-month-old colts and $ 4,000 for fillies of the same age. But even then, I don't break even most of the time. For me, the joy of watching foals being born and growing up (it's better than watching television) balances a reasonable loss. My other excuse is the sharing part. I know that happiness will come to those who buy Icelandics - most of the time. I have seen time and again how Icelandics have caused life style changes in families, pulling families closer together, going out into nature more and also perpetuating and spreading of Icelandics making people happy. Anneliese
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
On >Behalf >Of Judy Ryder > >Should breeding horses be a business for profit? >... I sure wish I was in business, it would be nice to have a year where I just broke even. It's a good thing I love what I'm doing!! Janet Caliente, California BTW, I still have a very pretty almost two year old dun filly for sale if anyone is interested.
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
>>> I work full time and any extra cash I get goes into this obsession I have >>> :)... but it's a nice obsession. I know that feeling. Technically, my farm is a business, but I still work my day job to subsidize it. I'm justlucky that I'm in a field (and at a point in my life) where I can work part-time for a decent salary. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
So. I think it's silly to debate whether you can make money breeding because it's been proven for decades and decades that you can't - the market won't bear your costs and you might as well decide if you're going to do it that you're doing for your own satisfaction. That's pretty much as I see it - it's more of a matter of how much I love it and how much I am willing to subsidize the effort - real profit just isn't going to happen if I maintain my standards for vet care, nutrition, etc.. I think all that's up for debate (and even that's not literally so, since the "market" will eventually decide) is whether it's fair to expect the same "commodity prices" within this breed as we see in the other, over-bred breeds, or should we encourage breeders to keep up their standards, while maintaining prices where they don't lose a bundle on even the healthy foals (from uncomplicated pregnancies) they raise. Personally, I think we may be able to find a "sweet spot" in the middle. I've priced my weanlings at $2500 to-date, and honestly, I have about that in them just counting routine vet expenses - as thankfully at least Janice recognized as reasonable. I've been very lucky - I haven't lost a mare or foal, and the only unexpected complication and expense was Landi's plasma transfusion - at least there was a happy ending to that little scare. (I also that know I'll lose money on him should I ever decide to sell him, just because of that one expense...) And, I don't even try to pretend to try to recoup the initial costs of my mares and stallion...and heaven knows, I'll NEVER recoup the cost of my barn, sheds, fences, etc! I've done it so far for the joy of the foals, and for the love of the breed, and no way can I ever expect a penny for the many, many hours I've invested. Hello, my name is Karen, and I'm an Icelandic Horse-aholic... This is my passion, m addiction, but even I have my limits on how much money I'll lose in the name of breeding horses...:) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
On 05/04/07, Laree Shulman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> Should breeding horses be a business for profit? I work full time and any extra cash I get goes into this obsession I have :)... but it's a nice obsession. I'm not a breeder, but I sure could beif I won a lottery. I am in a 'no baby' slump right now. Anyone want to foster parent out a pregnant mare? I have found that I love having babies around Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
> >>> Should breeding horses be a business for profit? There is a reason for some of the old sayings - "Horse Business is the ultimate oxymoron" - "The way to make a small fortune in horses is to start with a large one", etc. Sometimes we just have to accept what is, is and not obsess about what's fair/right. The fact is that breeding of most animals is not a profitable business if done correctly. Yes, there are exceptions to that rule but overall it is done more for love of the breed and self satisfaction. I raised Dobermans for years and believe me - it wasn't profitable, nor did I expect it to be. I am still in touch with many of my buyers, some whose dogs have long been gone. There are animals, where if you get on board at the very beginning, you can make some good money but it's like the old pyramid schemes, the further you get down the pyramid the less likely you are to share the wealth - perfect current example is Alpacas. Their parent club marketing is strong and if you go to their website you could come away believeing that you will make a fortune while living the perfect small farm lifestyle but I know people that have invested a small fortune and are losing their farms - - it's an interesting study. We just have to understand that every time we put that mare to a stud that we stand to lose quite a bit of money - it's truly a gamble. If you ever want to read a fascinating book about the racing industry there is one about the Rise and Fall of Calumet Farms (that's the sub-title - can't remember the full title). In the racing hey days of the 70's people were paying millions, yes millions, for an unproven weanling or yearling. I can't imagine doing that for something as unsure as the future of a horse. Of course, that's one of the many reasons the bottom fell out of that industry for awhile. So. I think it's silly to debate whether you can make money breeding because it's been proven for decades and decades that you can't - the market won't bear your costs and you might as well decide if you're going to do it that you're doing for your own satisfaction. Laree
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Ryder Should breeding horses be a business for profit? ... If it is a business it should, but it often isn't. Phil Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
>>> Should breeding horses be a business for profit? Since, I've been breeding, I'll take that one... No, I don't really think so. It would be lovely if we could find a nice balance where the horses could become generally more affordable to more people, but without putting them into the throwaway commodity category that inevitably happens when an over-supply drives the prices low. There are some people (like me) who enjoy the babies and take the responsibility VERY seriously, who are willing to breed a few out of love of the breed. I'd like to get a little something back towards my expenses, but I never expect to depend on the sale of horses to put groceries on the table. So, I guess maybe I'm a sucker, but I don't expect to really make anything doing this...but, on the other hand I can't afford to lose a bundle on every horse I raise or sell - nor do I have any desire to. Somewhere last week, someone mentioned passing on an Icelandic to buy another-breed horse, trained, for $3500. Now, somehow Storme started talking about someone trying to make back a loss of $25,000 by selling a young colt for $15,000. (Sorry, I lost track if this was real or hypothetical...) Sorry, folks, there's a LOT of room between those two extremes. If someone loses $25,000 on a horse (or two) they might as well kiss that money goodbye. But, if buyers expect to find prime, trained riding age horses for $3500, they might as well expect all the sensible breeders to stop breeding and training - leaving the future of the breed to those who (mistakenly) think they can make a quick profit selling cheap horses. That has happened a lot with other breeds. And no, as much as I love this breed, I don't think ANY horse (stallion, mare, "show-quality" gelding...) is worth $25,000 - probably not even $15,000. Sure, some of mine are priceless, not for sale at any price, but for that kind of money, I could easily buy 2-3 young problem-free 2-4-year-olds, train them myself, or one or two just-started-by-gentle-means 4-6-year-old horses...and I would still have enough left over to take in several rescue/rehabs, pay their upkeep and medical expenses for several years. I love this breed and I can appreciate a good example of the breed. But there are too many horses who have special needs for me to pay $15,000 - or even $5000 for that matter - for a weanling. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Horses
On 4/4/07, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Should breeding horses be a business for profit? it should be to improve the breed and if you profit, fine. You probably would have to sell them, anyone would eventually, or else you would end up with too many and once the herd gets too large if you don't thin the herd it thins itself through illness, worms, injury etc. Its a very noble thing, to be a breeder who strives to improve a breed or breeds for a specific clear purpose. but if you think you will breed horses for profit, its like saying "my heart's in my dayjob, I just breed horses to make money". oh haha hahha. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding / Natural Gait
> At this point think I would prefer that my horses do a foxtrot or > running walk, something smooth, but not so hard on them, of course it > all depends on what seems natural for them, each one of mine seems to > have slightly different gaits on the ground and is built differently. Back to Stella with her natural gait: http://iceryder.net/gaitstella.html She's ridden bareback and in halter, on a loose rein, barefoot, so this is her natural gait. Can we *make* her tolt? Can we *train* her to tolt? Probably. Would it be OK with her? I mean, physically, mentally? Maybe. Maybe not. We'd have to see. What's so wrong with her natural gait that we'd have to make her do something else? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Gaited Horses
>> If it's someone who can force a horse to gait by using a specific > saddle, weights, forced frame, tight noseband, whip, and that's what > they're used to, then the horse qualifies, in their mind, as being > able to gait. > Sounds like too much work to me. But for the ones who do it, it salvages horses that they have an investment in (that probably should be removed from the breeding arena); and it is easier for them than learning a whole new paradigm of breeding, training, and riding naturally gaited horses. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Gaited Horses
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > The Dam of my Dis is Pernille, and I have been told by someone > that > > owned and had ridden her that Pernille gaited nicley, but also > have > > been told by others that she could not tolt one step. > > Isn't Dis from Musetta? Yes she is Judya little caffeine deficient this morning...oh my! My other mare Skyfaxa is out of Pernille > > > > She does Tolt, her father was Hrafn from Gardarbae (?) and I know > he gaits for sure. > > Not questioning Dis' ability, but are you using the word "tolt" > generically or specifically? > > I ask because a lot of times people will say a horse will tolt, but > they may > mean "gait" (a generic term). She has a tolt, Sally started her with, she only has 30 days in, but she gives a nice tolt/rack under saddle...Honestly I would sell her if she did not have a soft gait. I purchased an Icelandic gelding who did not gait, I sold him to buy a mare that has the most even 4 beat tolt you've ever heard or felt. The $5000 difference in price was well worth it to me. I value the soft gaits highly. We have also seen her fox trot while working in the round penit is so early in her training we will not know what her preferred gait is at least for awhile...as she is going to give birth to her second foal anytime now...after she weans off her foal we will bring her home for some training on the trails. I guess as a small breeder, I would not breed a Stallion that did > not gait, he would be gelded, as it is one of the qualities that I really like in this breed, and there are so many choices out there, why would you need to? > > I think it happens because of a few different reasons. > > One of the big reasons is that the gait may not be natural. The > competitions and evaluations do not lend themselves to rewarding > natural > gait. > > OK, in the case of a horse like Pernille, it depends on who is > saying she can gait or she can't gait. > > If it's someone who can force a horse to gait by using a specific saddle, weights, forced frame, tight noseband, whip, and that's what they're used to, then the horse qualifies, in their mind, as being able to gait. Sounds like too much work to me. > > A person who looks for and knows natural gait may be of the opinion > that she's not gaited. > > This is a problem that we have within this breed. Yes I would agree.I prefer to breed for natural gaits...Sallys mare even goes barefoot around here, and there are no horses that can do that in our area, except her. Since she has been barefoot, and with good trims her gaits have actually gotten better...more clean, softer and with all the speed Sally loves. Storme No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
Re: [IceHorses] Breeding Gaited Horses
> The Dam of my Dis is Pernille, and I have been told by someone that > owned and had ridden her that Pernille gaited nicley, but also have > been told by others that she could not tolt one step. Isn't Dis from Musetta? > She does Tolt, her father was Hrafn from Gardarbae (?) and I know he > gaits for sure. Not questioning Dis' ability, but are you using the word "tolt" generically or specifically? I ask because a lot of times people will say a horse will tolt, but they may mean "gait" (a generic term). > I guess as a small breeder, I would not breed a Stallion that did not > gait, he would be gelded, as it is one of the qualities that I really > like in this breed, and there are so many choices out there, why > would you need to? I think it happens because of a few different reasons. One of the big reasons is that the gait may not be natural. The competitions and evaluations do not lend themselves to rewarding natural gait. OK, in the case of a horse like Pernille, it depends on who is saying she can gait or she can't gait. If it's someone who can force a horse to gait by using a specific saddle, weights, forced frame, tight noseband, whip, and that's what they're used to, then the horse qualifies, in their mind, as being able to gait. A person who looks for and knows natural gait may be of the opinion that she's not gaited. This is a problem that we have within this breed. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
