Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
--- LinuxLingam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 22:05, Raj Shekhar wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:30, LinuxLingam wrote: let's have a digital publishing+imaging mailing list on linux-delhi. we discuss digital typography, design, I vote for this with both my hands er... in that case, how did you type the message, well never mind the graphic details LL Good Question? Well, I also vote with both hands and my left leg and type the mail with my right toenails!!! Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online. Go to http://yahoo.shaadi.com ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
I believe there's a TeX mailing list for TUGIndia, but that probably won't want to stray into non-TeX discussions, right? Shuvam I have been on the Tex india mailing list, and it is totally different from this mailing list we are proposing. that mailing list is 100% focussed on tex, people usually ask questions on command sequences for how to typeset some stuff, or how where to get some stylesheets, and that's about it, almost. shuvam, your idea is quite good for the scope of the mailing list. it seems like a publishing, design, presentation, office app productivity, mailing list, especially for the non-TeXies :-) LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
Raju == Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Shuvam == Shuvam Misra [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: let's have a digital publishing+imaging mailing list on linux-delhi. we discuss digital typography, design, page composition+scribus, illustration+sodipodi+sketch+svg, gimp+cinepaint+gimp-print, imagemagick, teX+kile+lyx+more, littlecms, ghostscript, quanta, pfaedit, and all the tools and techniques in the opensource and mukt community. There are already one general list for TeX and friends at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and another specialised list for TeX programmers at [EMAIL PROTECTED] we do discuss various aspects of digital typography, design etc and graphic generating/rendering applications of the kind you've enlisted above in relation to TeX, but not any WYSIWYG typesetting systems. Shuvam I believe there's a TeX mailing list for TUGIndia, but Shuvam that probably won't want to stray into non-TeX Shuvam discussions, right? I agree. Raju ...though on the whole I'd think that TUG-India or a similar Raju platform may be a more appropriate place for hosting a Raju typesetting mailing list than ILUGD. You could talk to C V Raju Radhakrishnan, who's a very open person as well as being Raju well-versed (and interested) in publishing technology -- Raju after all, it's his bread and butter :) Thanks for the great compliments, Raju. I would invite the original poster to visit http://sarovar.org, start a project which obviously will allow him to create mailing lists there and announce at appropriate fora for people to join his efforts. I am only happy to support and join such an effort. Raju CC'ing CVR. Many thanks for letting me know about people and developments in an area which is dear to my heart. Best regards Radhakrishnan ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 09:39, Shuvam Misra wrote: http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Graphic_Design/Typography/?tc=1 and http://www.microsoft.com/typography/users.htm Will any Microsoft information repository on any generic (i.e. not Microsoft proprietary) subject be any use? unfotunately, the M$ repository is quite good, quite helpful, quite informative, and gets you up to speed on many issues. however, their repository is not the be all and end all of fonts. will pull out my bookmarks and post them here in a day or two. incidentally, what a coincidence that this discussion blossomed on linux-delhi. a few hours ago i saw on google that adobe has released a whole new suite for design. i checked out their site, then went through other references on licensing etc on their site, and lo and behold, they have quite a strict policy on the use of fonts. in brief: to use a font, you need to own its license. that's obvious. but to send it to any pre-press unit, they must also have its license. you just can't give it to them to output your work for you. and a long time ago, adobe's licensing did allow you to do this, as well as (i believe) allow you to keep installations on upto five computers, and a flexible policy on if you have it on a network printer's hard disk. fonts are quite a deadly issue in the computing world. very controversial. you see, a font design exists for 400 years or even more, so no one can claim copyright on it. but by creating digitized versions, copyright laws apply to these digital creations. adobe, linotype, bitstream, have pretty much cleaned up the font repository of the western world, for mainstream fonts, in digital incarnations. this is quite an issue that will raise its head quite soon over the next few years. stay tuned. :-| LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
http://designing.aiga.org/ for those of you who want to appreciate the subtle nuances of design and typography at a glance. enjoy! :-) LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 09:43, Shuvam Misra wrote: dpi is *not* ppi. ppi is *not* lpi. lpi is *not* dpi. Okay, please explain. By popular demand, if a population of two is large enough for you. :) I would have used dpi and ppi totally interchangeably. Shuvam let's have a digital publishing+imaging mailing list on linux-delhi. we discuss digital typography, design, page composition+scribus, illustration+sodipodi+sketch+svg, gimp+cinepaint+gimp-print, imagemagick, teX+kile+lyx+more, littlecms, ghostscript, quanta, pfaedit, and all the tools and techniques in the opensource and mukt community. then we can take this up. and not bore our penguin-OS-only friends. :-) LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:30, LinuxLingam wrote: let's have a digital publishing+imaging mailing list on linux-delhi. we discuss digital typography, design, I vote for this with both my hands -- / \__ (@\___Raj Shekhar / O My home : http://geocities.com/lunatech3007/ / (_/My blog : http://lunatech.journalspace.com/ /_/ U ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
let's have a digital publishing+imaging mailing list on linux-delhi. we discuss digital typography, design, I vote for this with both my hands I would like such a list, of course (it's part of our daily office work, dammit! :)) but I'd also like to extend the scope to include so-called office productivity tools, including how to sort out problems and do a good job with presentation creation tools, spreadsheets, etc. And yes, we should include (though not focus on) compatibilty with MS Office toolsets. I'd _love_ to wipe out my Windows partition from my laptop, but no alternative presentation software on Linux makes presentations totally compatible with (even older) versions of MS PPT. Hope this compatibility concern is not too Real Worldy for most of you. :) Shuvam ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
Shuvam == Shuvam Misra [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: let's have a digital publishing+imaging mailing list on linux-delhi. we discuss digital typography, design, page composition+scribus, illustration+sodipodi+sketch+svg, gimp+cinepaint+gimp-print, imagemagick, teX+kile+lyx+more, littlecms, ghostscript, quanta, pfaedit, and all the tools and techniques in the opensource and mukt community. Shuvam I believe there's a TeX mailing list for TUGIndia, but Shuvam that probably won't want to stray into non-TeX Shuvam discussions, right? ...though on the whole I'd think that TUG-India or a similar platform may be a more appropriate place for hosting a typesetting mailing list than ILUGD. You could talk to C V Radhakrishnan, who's a very open person as well as being well-versed (and interested) in publishing technology -- after all, it's his bread and butter :) OTOH, if enough ILUGD members are interested in the long term in electronic publishing I'd be glad to create a list on the Linux-Delhi server. CC'ing CVR. -- Raju -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F All your domain are belong to us. It is the mind that moves ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
Dear Sandip, Another question. The art of document layout and document styles in publications seems to be diffrent profession altogether. Is there any resource which can be looked at to find out more about this field? Huge field, many hundreds of years old. I had the fortune to learn some bits from a person who was an editor of a magazine and personally passionate about typography and typesetting; he used to sit with the printing press chaps when his magazine was composed on old Linotype and Monotype machines. I find typography and typesetting lovely subjects. :) Knuth (author of TeX) apparently had three PhD students doing work in hyphenation algorithms alone. This is how complex the field is. I've not been able to verify this story. :) In general, page composition done by today's computer-literate crowd is of very poor quality. Someone once said that modern WYSIWYG layout tools help you not to follow rules of good typesetting, but to break them. Even among TeX users, I find a lot of blind following of defaults. For instance, people just use Computer Modern, totally unaware of gems like Imprint, Garamond, or Baskerville. This leads to typesetting and font selection which does not reflect the material's content. Of course, in the Windows world, the Times New Roman and the Arial and the default styles are so depressing that the less said, the better. If you can find any online resources, please let me know. regards, Shuvam ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 08:51, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: Another question. The art of document layout and document styles in publications seems to be diffrent profession altogether. Is there any resource which can be looked at to find out more about this field? - Sandip very good question indeed, sandip. the art of document layout, *incorrectly* called desktop publishing, is a specialised profession altogether. the art is called 'typography'. typography, and its application, page-composition, cannot really be taught. it can only be caught. disciples of typography through the ages have worked with existing masters, observing and learning on-the-job. the new age of misinformation has led to a new class of people, who pay thousands of rupees to learn a software package like pagemaker or quark or indesign, and are then misled into thinking they have acquired the art of typography when in reality they have reached at best, the level of 'typesetting', that too through software packages that impose their own severe limitations and introduce several new anamolies. in the opensource world, a programming language, called TeX, created by donald knuth, to tackle the 'typesetting' of mathematics, stumbled into the domain of typography. TeX gives you far more professional tools for typesetting, and allows for ways of achieving several advanced techniques of typesetting. however, it just cannot teach, or codify, typography. which is a pure art. photoshop does not teach or codify photography. ditto for gimp. at best they recreate a photographer's dark room. you could start with some basic googling on 'typography and page-design' or 'typography and page composition' with a few extra keywords, 'introduction' 'learning' 'technique' beginner, etc etc. hint: the best way to self-learn typography, is to study the classification, birth, design, history, of fonts. where does 'times' or 'helvetica' come from? (i do know of someone on this list who has quite recently conducted a short course on an introduction to digital typography of about 30 classes, of one hour each.) HTH :-) LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 09:44, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: LinuxLingam wrote: so in answer to your question, you need to know how to create a pdf for pre-press. assuming your work is in black-andwhite lineart, a text-only, the pdf for print could safely be used for pdf for pre-press, unless you have some halftone images, etc. But we already have an export for pre-press quality PDF option. That must be good enough? pdf also conforms to the pipo and gigo rules of data (perfect in, perfect out, and garbage in garbage out). if your original image is a 72ppi index-color mode gif or something, it can't be press-ready, even if you create a pdf for prepress. images for prepress have some strict requirements: survival rules are as follows (don't ask me details on why, that is too fundamental to explain over email): 300ppi images. black and white lineart, (two-bit): 1200 to 3600dpi. color mode: rgb, cmyk, in the appropriate color depth. black and white photos (grayscale) the tonal values of the image should be mapped to the tonal values of the output, all this done in photoshop or gimp. then embed these images in your file, and then output to pdf, you are okay. issues of transparancy need to be tackled individually, depending on the complexity of transparancy. ditto for gradients, meshes, and other sophisticated techniques. One problemt hat I have seen with people who are using Acrobat for creating pre-press PDFs, is that the format of the embedded image in the document matters a lot. From my experiments I have seen that an uncompressed TIFF works best. Any tips that you have regarding this? while india is sleeping, the world has moved away from tiff to pdf for embedded images as well. i find this quite exciting. but again, you need to understand how to create these special types of pdfs. then, there is also eps, custom-tuned to the job at hand. tiff works okay too, but there's a newer version, called tiff2, as also jpeg2000. most software have begun to support the native fileformat of photoshop, illustrator. svg is gradually becoming popular for vector images in prepress too. :-) LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
very good question indeed, sandip. the art of document layout, *incorrectly* called desktop publishing, is a specialised profession altogether. the art is called 'typography'. We usually use the word typography to refer to the art and science of font design, and typesetting to refer to the art and science of page composition and layout. In other words, when you begin creating compositions larger than a single letter, it goes beyond the boundary of typography. It's possible that others use typography the way you did... don't know. you could start with some basic googling on 'typography and page-design' or 'typography and page composition' with a few extra keywords, 'introduction' 'learning' 'technique' beginner, etc etc. Check http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117318tocid=0query=typographyct= as an easy starting point. Shuvam ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 18:16, Shuvam Misra wrote: Check http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117318tocid=0query=typographyct= as an easy starting point. It requires registeration and is available for 72 hrs only. I would suggest the goodle directory http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Graphic_Design/Typography/?tc=1 and http://www.microsoft.com/typography/users.htm -- / \__ (@\___Raj Shekhar / O My home : http://geocities.com/lunatech3007/ / (_/My blog : http://lunatech.journalspace.com/ /_/ U ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
I agree. But then that's not really a fault of the port 80 service; it's a limitation of the browser, which feels users will be more than happy to get a legible page, and aesthetics be hanged. Maybe someday, Mozilla will come out with a better typesetting engine. :) Shuvam the html structure is designed with no understanding of typography and typesetting. the browser merely parses, using the fonts and the font rendering engine in the accompanying OS. remove your 'essential' set of fonts from your OS and you'll see. ironically, TeX, which is 25 years old, does a great job of typesetting. would have been much better if web pages were designed 10 years ago, as *.tex files and a browser parsed it on the localhost. this *.tex file only needed a few extensions for linking, and MIMEs. that's it. plus a few more new-stuff technology support. the other option could have been *.ps file as a web page, highly condensed, compressed, and with extensions for linking, and other web technologies. but sadly, *.html took off, and no matter what happens in the future, the world is straddled with the billions of html pages out there with the ugliness of typography. nothing can undo that. LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Graphic_Design/Typography/?tc=1 and http://www.microsoft.com/typography/users.htm Will any Microsoft information repository on any generic (i.e. not Microsoft proprietary) subject be any use? I'd almost expect their typography section to be filled with how after years of original research, Microsoft developed and gifted to humankind the (taran taran taraaa) Times New Roman font. :) And so on... Haven't checked, just asking. Shuvam ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Re: Openoffice 1.1 RCs and other publishing questions
dpi is *not* ppi. ppi is *not* lpi. lpi is *not* dpi. Okay, please explain. By popular demand, if a population of two is large enough for you. :) I would have used dpi and ppi totally interchangeably. Shuvam ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
