Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On Tue, 2007-03-06 at 09:49 +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: snip Sucks that the first question to everyone must be which version and distro you're using Which version has always been a critical field for bug reports. Even if you expect everyone to compile from the latest source, they're still not going to do it every day. -- and it's usually the people who've installed Ion from a distribution, that are using old unsupported development snapshots. (Actually, maybe I should just stop supporting anyone who has not installed Ion from the official tarball. Let the distros support their own lusers.) My understanding is that a Debian maintainer must at the absolute *minimum* provide first-line support to Debian users. I'm also considering extending the license (LGPL) with a Distributor timely response clause, something like the following (D). It could make Ion non-free, but I don't care about these idealists' definitions of freeness. snip Please don't do this. We'd have to come up with some funny new name, possibly involving the word ice. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Make three consecutive correct guesses and you will be considered an expert. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007-03-06, Matthieu Moy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first reference (the Debian bugreport) seems to have been updated in between. The bug is now serious, and I think this means the package will be removed from testing (and therefore the future stable) after some time unless someone closes the bug (2 weeks IIRC). Yes, my flame and extortion campaign has beared fruit :). Maybe. The bug has been downgraded from serious to important. Also judging from the discussion there, it is starting to seem that Debian is not going to do anything, after all. The license change therefore seems highly likely again. If they want to distribute ancient releases, I'll take the new ones away from them. -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-07 08:21 -, John Robson wrote: I don't like xinerama therefore: ... I am not going to waste my breath supporting it. Recent research, BTW, suggests that the manufacturing of a computer with a monitor, takes five times as much energy as the manufacturing of a car. And it is well-known that the manufacturing of a car takes much more energy (but not with quite as high a factor as the above) than a car uses in its lifetime -- which also isn't a small number. So, there, you techno-toy fetists chasing after the latest cool gizmo and upgrading your hardware every few months: your lifestyle may not last long. I don't want to support month old releases therefore: ... Distributors should not provide them to people as ion3 (without further version specifiers) without a very noticeabled mention that they are unsupported, ancient, and not representative of the project's present state. I don't want to to subscribe to a mailing list... ... because it's such a hassle to subscribe for just a single question. I use slrn/NNTP/Gmane for most of my lists, BTW, and have disabled receiving the emails. I'd prefer not having to subscribe either, or the subscription (and disabling of receiving mail) being queried in response to a posting when not subscribed. (gmane, in fact, does already try to verify that you really are there and not just a rooted spam bot, before it lets you post... but the lists don't know that.) It would also be great to be able to subscribe to just the single thread that you start -- automatically. The less users, the better. Users are a problem... - They are also the point of software - without them software is useless. One user is enough. I don't need the zillion kids for whom Ion is the latest shiny gadget to be dumped when the next one comes along. Don't get me worng I still think ion is a great WM, but you seem to have a very odd mental block with regard to people. People suck. -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:35:52 -, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007-03-06, Alexander Wirt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe you shouldn't publish any software then? The problem is that the mistake has already been made, and all you can do now, is minimise the damage. Tuomo, I am consistently astounded by your attitude towards users of ion. You have actually written a well thought out, very useful, piece of software. The kind of people who are going to be using ion are those who work in an alternative (we know WIMP is crap, but it is the standard) fashion. My guess is that this bunch of people are also the most likely to want to have alternative setups and otherwise customise the tool they use to get real work done. However your comments appear to suggest that everyone should work exactly like you: I don't like xinerama therefore: - noone could possibly justify the use of a pair of monitors (or heaven forbid even more) I don't want to support month old releases therefore: - everyone should be constantly updating to the latest snapshot. And in fact compiling that from source - because as far as I can tell you haven't been bothered to make an interim 'stable' ion3 for people to settle on. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a 'stable' version since I started using ion3. How can debian et al. include ion3 at all if you never release a stable version? I don't want to to subscribe to a mailing list... - no mailing lists subscriptions ?? wtf? how are you going to get the email - would you prefer to use a newsgroup or a bulletin board / forum? Mailing lists need subscription so you can see what's being talked about. The less users, the better. Users are a problem... - They are also the point of software - without them software is useless. For someone who seems to have a reasonable grasp of what makes a decent WM, and what user interfaces should be like (which of course depends primarily on the user) you present an incredibly arrogant face to the world - something which you may or may not realise. Don't get me worng I still think ion is a great WM, but you seem to have a very odd mental block with regard to people. John PS - still using 3ds-20051029 - xinerama support is important to me - and this has never really failed me (although I have got an interesting bug at the moment, the scratchpad is far smaller than it used to be on my work machine...)
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
it's starting to seem you might be one of them, actually. that's getting ridiculous and/or annoying rapidly (accelatering at about 9.81 m/s^2: you are in free fall). lucky thing, ion3 is more sensible and consistent than your arguments and your general view of the state of affairs, which sound like some of your neurotransmitters are off-balance right now. I've had enough of this megalomaniac nonsense. so I'll stay away from this list from now on until I have a ion3 related question (which then hopefully will not cause pseudo-progressive comments from some kind of sociologist on crack). no offense meant (not really), Hey, you seem to suck!! - but no offense meant, really!! ;) joerg I get the impression Tuomo tries to ged rid of ion's users - pardon, lusers in most cases. And he does it in his, let's say very outspoken, way. But readers of this list/newsgroup should by now be used to it, shouldn't they ? By the way, there are other window managers out there... (I myself cheated on ion for the first time in 1.5 years this morning - with a fresh compile of wmii) Renee.
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:46:49 +0100 Renee Klawitter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it's starting to seem you might be one of them, actually. that's getting ridiculous and/or annoying rapidly (accelatering at about 9.81 m/s^2: you are in free fall). lucky thing, ion3 is more sensible and consistent than your arguments and your general view of the state of affairs, which sound like some of your neurotransmitters are off-balance right now. I've had enough of this megalomaniac nonsense. so I'll stay away from this list from now on until I have a ion3 related question (which then hopefully will not cause pseudo-progressive comments from some kind of sociologist on crack). no offense meant (not really), Hey, you seem to suck!! - but no offense meant, really!! ;) joerg I get the impression Tuomo tries to ged rid of ion's users - pardon, lusers in most cases. And he does it in his, let's say very outspoken, way. But readers of this list/newsgroup should by now be used to it, shouldn't they ? By the way, there are other window managers out there... (I myself cheated on ion for the first time in 1.5 years this morning - with a fresh compile of wmii) Renee. As if wmii people were any better ... *cough cough*
Re: tuomov sucks [Was: Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free]
On 2007-03-07, Joerg van den Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but please don't blame the climate change on Xinerama. you are twisting and bending your arguments in a remarkable, if not admirable way. If you would bother to revisit the original discussion and the FAQ entry, the fact that multihead is most of the time unecological penis enlargement, with no real justifiable (to me) need behind it, was essential to it. There are other things to consider besides the comfort of having the biggest screen (penis) in the block (or even the environment). Too bad most people don't seem see further than that, and engage in mindless consumerism. lucky thing, ion3 is more sensible and consistent than your arguments and your general view of the state of affairs, Ion3 is a patched up mess. which sound like some of your neurotransmitters are off-balance right now. Must be the lack of coffee... (which then hopefully will not cause pseudo-progressive comments from some kind of sociologist on crack). ... or maybe crack. no offense meant (not really), -- Tuomo, -- Offense meant, always.
Re: tuomov sucks [Was: Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free]
On 2007-03-07, Giles Constant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um.. I use two heads (although I keep one of them switched off when i'm not using it). One head is my laptop screen, the other is the monitor from my old desktop machine. That's a relatively reasonable setup, since there can be proper need for a portable computer, but the screen on such a device is a bit smallish for any real work (assuming a real laptop and not a 17 dragtop). But let's not get into this Xinerama discussion again. I can not be bothered supporting it, and if someone wants it, he'll just have to write a module that generates a suitable setup... possibly fixing Ion itself as well. (But might I remind, that Xinerama is not the only option for multihead on X.) -- Tuomo
Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
I'm sick of distributions providing ancient development snapshots, that their lusers think is the latest, and come crying to me about. Since Debian appears to refuse [1,2] to remove the ancient Ion3 development snapshot that they have (20061223, the last release with totally broken Xinerama support) from the new static (so called stable) distribution, I will be refusing to deal with the average Debian luser, just like I can't be bothered to deal with the average Gentoo luser. Sucks though that already filtering out these lusers from the complaining masses is a lot of work. Sucks that the first question to everyone must be which version and distro you're using -- and it's usually the people who've installed Ion from a distribution, that are using old unsupported development snapshots. (Actually, maybe I should just stop supporting anyone who has not installed Ion from the official tarball. Let the distros support their own lusers.) I'm also considering extending the license (LGPL) with a Distributor timely response clause, something like the following (D). It could make Ion non-free, but I don't care about these idealists' definitions of freeness. D. Anyone distributing Ion3 in aggregate with other works, must within twenty-eight (28) days from the release of a new version of Ion3, either (A) upgrade the aggregate to include the new version, and cause the new version be installed when a user tries to install an unspecified version of Ion3, or upgrade Ion3 (from the aggregate); or (B) remove Ion3 from the aggregate, and notify users of the removal, when they try to upgrade the aggregate or Ion3 (from the aggregate) and have installed an old version of Ion3. (It is, however, not necessary to remove Ion3 from the user's computer; merely notify of its out-datedness.) The requirements above on responses to user actions do not apply, if the user is not network-connected, or chooses not to use network installation, and is using physical distribution media. This clause does not bind any rebranded derivative works, that can not be confused with Ion3: that is, any derivative work whose name can not be confused with Ion3, and which in in no way points to the original work or its authors for support, may be distributed under the LGPL or GPL without this clause. (Perhaps this should be combined with a clause that forbids distributors from applying unsupported/unapproved patches... like Xft... Too bad that due to the nature of Gentoo ebuilds, it probably doesn't work against them.) Too bad that Ion3 is going into a freeze too soon, so that the benefit of the clause would be minimal, as it doesn't work retroactively. But if that wasn't the case, I'd certainly add it. I'm sick of sloppy distributors and mega-frozen distributions, and the lusers who think they're using the latest version because of them. [1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=413469 [2] http://www.inittab.de/blog/debian/20070305_giving-away-ion-packages.html -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
As everyone knows, real Ion users compile from source ;-) If you need a distro to manage Ion installation, maybe you should consider some other WM...? BTW thanks for a great window manager. Now I'm ruined forever; all the other WMs have so much eye candy I feel like I'm going to go into insulin shock whenever I try them. Mike Tuomo Valkonen wrote: I'm sick of distributions providing ancient development snapshots, that their lusers think is the latest, and come crying to me about. Since Debian appears to refuse [1,2] to remove the ancient Ion3 development snapshot that they have (20061223, the last release with totally broken Xinerama support) from the new static (so called stable) distribution, I will be refusing to deal with the average Debian luser, just like I can't be bothered to deal with the average Gentoo luser. Sucks though that already filtering out these lusers from the complaining masses is a lot of work. Sucks that the first question to everyone must be which version and distro you're using -- and it's usually the people who've installed Ion from a distribution, that are using old unsupported development snapshots. (Actually, maybe I should just stop supporting anyone who has not installed Ion from the official tarball. Let the distros support their own lusers.) I'm also considering extending the license (LGPL) with a Distributor timely response clause, something like the following (D). It could make Ion non-free, but I don't care about these idealists' definitions of freeness. D. Anyone distributing Ion3 in aggregate with other works, must within twenty-eight (28) days from the release of a new version of Ion3, either (A) upgrade the aggregate to include the new version, and cause the new version be installed when a user tries to install an unspecified version of Ion3, or upgrade Ion3 (from the aggregate); or (B) remove Ion3 from the aggregate, and notify users of the removal, when they try to upgrade the aggregate or Ion3 (from the aggregate) and have installed an old version of Ion3. (It is, however, not necessary to remove Ion3 from the user's computer; merely notify of its out-datedness.) The requirements above on responses to user actions do not apply, if the user is not network-connected, or chooses not to use network installation, and is using physical distribution media. This clause does not bind any rebranded derivative works, that can not be confused with Ion3: that is, any derivative work whose name can not be confused with Ion3, and which in in no way points to the original work or its authors for support, may be distributed under the LGPL or GPL without this clause. (Perhaps this should be combined with a clause that forbids distributors from applying unsupported/unapproved patches... like Xft... Too bad that due to the nature of Gentoo ebuilds, it probably doesn't work against them.) Too bad that Ion3 is going into a freeze too soon, so that the benefit of the clause would be minimal, as it doesn't work retroactively. But if that wasn't the case, I'd certainly add it. I'm sick of sloppy distributors and mega-frozen distributions, and the lusers who think they're using the latest version because of them. [1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=413469 [2] http://www.inittab.de/blog/debian/20070305_giving-away-ion-packages.html
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
Hi, I have been using ion for 2 years, thanks for the great work :) I must admit I recently switched to dwm, which is a really light wm. I still use riot, waiting for any new improvements! Lobzang On Tue, 2007-03-06 at 02:02 -0800, Michael Vanier wrote: As everyone knows, real Ion users compile from source ;-) If you need a distro to manage Ion installation, maybe you should consider some other WM...? BTW thanks for a great window manager. Now I'm ruined forever; all the other WMs have so much eye candy I feel like I'm going to go into insulin shock whenever I try them. Mike Tuomo Valkonen wrote: I'm sick of distributions providing ancient development snapshots, that their lusers think is the latest, and come crying to me about. Since Debian appears to refuse [1,2] to remove the ancient Ion3 development snapshot that they have (20061223, the last release with totally broken Xinerama support) from the new static (so called stable) distribution, I will be refusing to deal with the average Debian luser, just like I can't be bothered to deal with the average Gentoo luser. Sucks though that already filtering out these lusers from the complaining masses is a lot of work. Sucks that the first question to everyone must be which version and distro you're using -- and it's usually the people who've installed Ion from a distribution, that are using old unsupported development snapshots. (Actually, maybe I should just stop supporting anyone who has not installed Ion from the official tarball. Let the distros support their own lusers.) I'm also considering extending the license (LGPL) with a Distributor timely response clause, something like the following (D). It could make Ion non-free, but I don't care about these idealists' definitions of freeness. D. Anyone distributing Ion3 in aggregate with other works, must within twenty-eight (28) days from the release of a new version of Ion3, either (A) upgrade the aggregate to include the new version, and cause the new version be installed when a user tries to install an unspecified version of Ion3, or upgrade Ion3 (from the aggregate); or (B) remove Ion3 from the aggregate, and notify users of the removal, when they try to upgrade the aggregate or Ion3 (from the aggregate) and have installed an old version of Ion3. (It is, however, not necessary to remove Ion3 from the user's computer; merely notify of its out-datedness.) The requirements above on responses to user actions do not apply, if the user is not network-connected, or chooses not to use network installation, and is using physical distribution media. This clause does not bind any rebranded derivative works, that can not be confused with Ion3: that is, any derivative work whose name can not be confused with Ion3, and which in in no way points to the original work or its authors for support, may be distributed under the LGPL or GPL without this clause. (Perhaps this should be combined with a clause that forbids distributors from applying unsupported/unapproved patches... like Xft... Too bad that due to the nature of Gentoo ebuilds, it probably doesn't work against them.) Too bad that Ion3 is going into a freeze too soon, so that the benefit of the clause would be minimal, as it doesn't work retroactively. But if that wasn't the case, I'd certainly add it. I'm sick of sloppy distributors and mega-frozen distributions, and the lusers who think they're using the latest version because of them. [1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=413469 [2] http://www.inittab.de/blog/debian/20070305_giving-away-ion-packages.html
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that real users compile everything from source -- just Ion. I myself use both Debian unstable and Ubuntu. I only compile things from scratch if they are programs that I really care about and that aren't current enough in the distros. Mike Peter Schuller wrote: As everyone knows, real Ion users compile from source ;-) If you need a distro to manage Ion installation, maybe you should consider some other WM...? I will totally agree on the debian is always 3 years out of date issue (TRUST me, I feel the pain daily), but I have to disagree strongly with the above statement. It doesn't matter how competent you are, you do NOT want to maintain thousands of programs manually unless you have nothing better to do in your life than managing said programs. If I want a newer version, assuming I'm not stuck on Debian, it's easier to just update the port/pkgsrc package and compile from that, than to keep compiling maunally from source with all the deinstall/upgrade hell it entails. BTW thanks for a great window manager. Now I'm ruined forever; all the other WMs have so much eye candy I feel like I'm going to go into insulin shock whenever I try them. Yep. I am totally hooked.
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
As everyone knows, real Ion users compile from source ;-) If you need a distro to manage Ion installation, maybe you should consider some other WM...? I will totally agree on the debian is always 3 years out of date issue (TRUST me, I feel the pain daily), but I have to disagree strongly with the above statement. It doesn't matter how competent you are, you do NOT want to maintain thousands of programs manually unless you have nothing better to do in your life than managing said programs. If I want a newer version, assuming I'm not stuck on Debian, it's easier to just update the port/pkgsrc package and compile from that, than to keep compiling maunally from source with all the deinstall/upgrade hell it entails. BTW thanks for a great window manager. Now I'm ruined forever; all the other WMs have so much eye candy I feel like I'm going to go into insulin shock whenever I try them. Yep. I am totally hooked. -- / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller [EMAIL PROTECTED]' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.scode.org pgpTK3PkbKGlk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 02:02:35AM -0800, Michael Vanier wrote: As everyone knows, real Ion users compile from source ;-) If you need a distro to manage Ion installation, maybe you should consider some other WM...? and then, maybe not. I don't think this attitude is helpful. what's the sense of this? AFAICS `ion3' is a very useful WM, i.e. a tool (repeat together: A TOOL). as far as I understand the ion home page the whole point was to create a better user (repeat: USER) interface. not for everyone, certainly, but for a non-negligible fraction of the people who need a WM (i.e. those who are sitting in front of some unix box). arguing against distros and/or package management systems seems bizarre to me. BTW thanks for a great window manager. Now I'm ruined forever; all the other WMs have so much eye candy I feel like I'm going to go into insulin shock whenever I try them. Mike Tuomo Valkonen wrote: I'm sick of distributions providing ancient development snapshots, that their lusers think is the latest, and come crying to me about. Since Debian appears to refuse [1,2] to remove the ancient Ion3 development snapshot that they have (20061223, the last release with totally broken Xinerama support) from the new static (so called stable) distribution, I will be refusing to deal with the average Debian luser, just like I can't be bothered to deal with the average Gentoo luser. Sucks though that already filtering out these lusers from the complaining masses is a lot of work. Sucks that the first question to everyone must be which version and distro you're using -- and it's usually the people who've installed Ion from a distribution, that are using old unsupported development snapshots. (Actually, maybe I should just stop supporting anyone who has not installed Ion from the official tarball. Let the distros support their own lusers.) maybe neither wise to interfere nor of relevance to you but anyway: sure, you are not overreacting a bit? having strong opinions I like and getting angry at stupidity (or what one thinks is stupidity -- not necessary the same thing) I understand (happens to me, too), but a 'take no prisoners' approach is too much for me. whatever and whoever might have got on your nerves: a 12 weeks old version is ancient? if that version is broken, that's bad and it should not be in the distro (and maybe no longer at the homepage for download?) but than I would argue that it might have been better in the first place to do the usual thing and to clearly identify/discriminate a stable version (which should go in the distros and development snapshots (which everyone might download from the home page and compile/test). as far as I can see, `ion3' is simply flagged as development at the home page. so what is a poor guy wanting to include `ion3' in a distro to do? what would have prevented to identify some intermediate version as sufficiently stable for average use? sure, it's not your responsibility to do this and it's not your problem if the debian/gentoo people have somehow managed to include the wrong `ion3' version, but sweeping the shotgun in a 360 deg. circle in this way?? I'm also considering extending the license (LGPL) with a Distributor timely response clause, something like the following (D). It could make Ion non-free, but I don't care about these idealists' definitions of freeness. D. Anyone distributing Ion3 in aggregate with other works, must within twenty-eight (28) days from the release of a new version of Ion3, either (A) upgrade the aggregate to include the new version, and cause the new version be installed when a user tries to install an unspecified version of Ion3, or upgrade Ion3 (from the aggregate); or (B) remove Ion3 from the aggregate, and notify users of the removal, when they try to upgrade the aggregate or Ion3 (from the aggregate) and have installed an old version of Ion3. (It is, however, not necessary to remove Ion3 from the user's computer; merely notify of its out-datedness.) The requirements above on responses to user actions do not apply, if the user is not network-connected, or chooses not to use network installation, and is using physical distribution media. This clause does not bind any rebranded derivative works, that can not be confused with Ion3: that is, any derivative work whose name can not be confused with Ion3, and which in in no way points to the original work or its authors for support, may be distributed under the LGPL or GPL without this clause. or maybe forbid the use of `ion3' altogether? come on. tell you what: I'm writing this while running ion3ds-20060524 which happens to lie around at the macports site because some nice guy added it to that package management system. suits me fine. if I'm not content, sure I can download the official tarball and see whether I get it installed.
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
Hi, Today Joerg van den Hoff wrote: I don't think this attitude is helpful. what's the sense of this? [..] sure, you are not overreacting a bit? [..] the moment. you want to force the guys to upgrade their system every few weeks or remove `ion3' altogether? mmh. could serve as a strategy to ensure that ion users know each other personally in a few years. a happy not-even-having-compiled-it-himself-prehistoric-version-of-ion3-user Even I you don't care about it I wanted to say I fully agree with Joerg. I'm sorry I have asked stupid outdated newbie questions when you once broke the API and my ion didn't work as before. It certainly pissed you off but that is why others have answered with a short RTFM and its reference... Ion is *really* cool and I cannot think about using another window manager for the next few years. I've been using debian for ten years now and even if I don't always like the way it works, it still serves me way better than any other distro. But you probably agree with that as well. I know users are a pain in the ass to developpers but my point is: debian maintainers are volunteers and spend their time where they can afford to and where they like it. By acting like that, I think the ion3 package will soon disappear from debian. And I don't think anyone else will volunteer soon given the way it ended... You make it look like you anyway want ion3 out of debian but I think this is a loss. Whatever you decide, it won't change anything to me, but still... it would suck. Arnaud -- It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures. -- Epigrams in Programming, by Alan J. Perlis of Yale University.
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Joerg van den Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as far as I can see, `ion3' is simply flagged as development at the home page. so what is a poor guy wanting to include `ion3' in a distro to do? People should not include unstable/development software in stable distros. I'm not that annoyed with 20061223 being available now, but with the new stable Debian still providing it when people ask for ion3, two years from now, as seems likely to be the case. So from two years from now, you still have to deal with lusers complaining about it. Debian/unstable does tend to normally have the latest release quite quickly, except now, that they've freezen it too, and you already get complaints from people using the latest -- in Debian. Gentoo, OTOH, only sporadically update their ebuilds, and they don't seem to have a proper maintainer either.. They seem to take the package directly from the home page, however, so I can just remove the old ones... And although occasionally you get some Gentoo user using some very old locked version (well, not recently anymore, actually), most often the user complaining of an old development snapshot, is a Debian or Ubuntu user. or maybe forbid the use of `ion3' altogether? come on. tell you what: I'm writing this while running ion3ds-20060524 which happens to lie around at the macports site because some nice guy added it to that package management system. suits me fine. if I'm not content, sure I can download the official tarball and see whether I get it installed. fact is: I have work to do and the trade off between having the latestgreatest and simply use what's there is easy for me at the moment. you want to force the guys to upgrade their system every few weeks or remove `ion3' altogether? mmh. could serve as a strategy to ensure that ion users know each other personally in a few years. You use whatever version you want and works for you, but if you don't use the latest, stop complaining about any bugs and other glitches. Distros, however, should provide the latest or deal themselves with the lusers ignorant of the fact that they're not using the latest and should thus keep their mouths shut. At the very least they should warn with das big red blinkenletters that what they're using is old, to stay away from the upstream, and provide the support themselves. Nobody forces any user to upgrade something that works for them: the distro could easily ask if you want to upgrade to an incompatible version instead of doing it automagically. And I wish they did that, instead of breaking the system, like Debian often does. But if you don't use the latest, be aware that you get no support, and are on your own. I don't provide development snapshots with the intent of having to support them years from now, which seems to be Debian's idea of the matter. -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Arnaud Legrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know users are a pain in the ass to developpers but my point is: debian maintainers are volunteers and spend their time where they can afford to and where they like it. As if I wasn't a volunteer too. I spent my time where I want, and that doesn't include supporting lusers using the ancient releases that Debian provides. -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Arnaud Legrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I'm saying is, imho, you'd better ignore lusers rather than shutting everything One thing that I don't like is people just silently ignoring you if you contact them personally, and have a question. In this age of spam, you don't know where the message ended up. So I rather let people know that I will be ignoring them. -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
Today Tuomo Valkonen wrote: One thing that I don't like is people just silently ignoring you if you contact them personally, and have a question. In this age of spam, you don't know where the message ended up. So I rather let people know that I will be ignoring them. I don't like it either and that is not exactly what I suggested. I was talking about emails sent on the mailing list. Even if you're the one who created the ion-general mailing list, those mails are not sent to you personnaly. As far as I'm concerned, when I get a private email on a software I'm involved on, my answer is always Please, use the user mailing list. One can then easily check whether the mail was received on the mailing list or not... Then others who may have more time to answer to newbie question can do it for me, which gives me more time to answer real questions. Arnaud -- A program without a loop and a structured variable isn't worth writing. -- Epigrams in Programming, by Alan J. Perlis of Yale University.
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Arnaud Legrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I'm concerned, when I get a private email on a software I'm involved on, my answer is always Please, use the user mailing list. It's still extra work to do that redirection, and one thing I also don't like is having to subscribe on a mailing list... but since mailing list software/providers suck, it's the only weapon against spam. -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since Debian appears to refuse [1,2] to remove the ancient Ion3 development snapshot Your first reference (the Debian bugreport) seems to have been updated in between. The bug is now serious, and I think this means the package will be removed from testing (and therefore the future stable) after some time unless someone closes the bug (2 weeks IIRC). That seems to be a good solution: people using unstable can use a reasonably recent snapshot, and this eliminates the worst-case senario of someone complaining about broken Xinarema in 200612xx in 2010. -- Matthieu
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Matthieu Moy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first reference (the Debian bugreport) seems to have been updated in between. The bug is now serious, and I think this means the package will be removed from testing (and therefore the future stable) after some time unless someone closes the bug (2 weeks IIRC). Yes, my flame and extortion campaign has beared fruit :). Maybe. That seems to be a good solution: people using unstable can use a reasonably recent snapshot, and this eliminates the worst-case senario of someone complaining about broken Xinarema in 200612xx in 2010. And there's always backports.org... the use of which is, however, too poorly documented; and when I asked around, nobody seemed to know to automate updates from there (for only the packages specifically installed from there). -- Tuomo
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 09:49:55AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: development snapshots. (Actually, maybe I should just stop supporting anyone who has not installed Ion from the official tarball. Let the distros support their own lusers.) This is imho the best of the options. A smalled canned reply like: Sorry, I only have time and inclination to support my latest development snapshot. If you can recreate the bug on latest ion3, please report back. Else report to bugs.debian.org. Users who want to stick with distro-supplied stuff, knowing full well it is ancient, will know what to do. Users who want their problems fixed will know what to do. Thanks pgp3V5v8UCRwO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
Tuomo Valkonen schrieb am Dienstag, den 06. März 2007: On 2007-03-06 20:58 +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote: And updates will only happen to packages installed from there. Well, yes, the hard way (reminiscent of udev): manual configuration for every package, instead of the tools remembering it. No. Just don't use pinning but apt-get -t sarge-backports install package. From thereon everything will happen automatically. Just read the whole documentation. But you managed to lose the debian maintainer with your attitude and several debian users. Congratulations. The less users, the better. Users a problem: they make demands, requests, and complaints. I just want to finish this shit and forget about it. Maybe you shouldn't publish any software then? Alex
Re: Debian sucks // Ion may become (DFSG-) non-free
On 2007-03-06, Alexander Wirt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just don't use pinning but apt-get -t sarge-backports install package. From thereon everything will happen automatically. Just read the whole documentation. The whole documentation? That single page? It says nothing of future 'apt-get upgrade's upgrading package from backports. And when I tried to find out ages ago, nobody knew how to achieve that... And I'm on 'testing', for now, so trying it out is a bit difficult. Maybe you shouldn't publish any software then? The problem is that the mistake has already been made, and all you can do now, is minimise the damage. -- Tuomo
