subject:"\[j\-nsp\] ACX5448 \& ACX710"

Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Mark Tinka

On 30/Jul/20 12:53, Luis Balbinot wrote:
> I work with telecom companies for years and DC is the standard for pretty
> much all of them. If you have a small shelter or container you can deploy
> an UPS DC system with a handful of batteries that will last for hours and
> will not take much space. Look inside a mobile node B station and you’ll
> only find DC power.
>
> All major IDCs will provide you -48VDC too.
>
> And to save a bit of money on power efficiency during the years.

We run cable landing stations across Africa, so yes, we do use DC for
those as well. Very familiar with the use-case.

We just find AC simpler and easier to work with at 3rd party data
centres as well as Metro commercial buildings, for routers, switches,
servers and such appliances. Dropping a UPS at those sites is far
simpler than deploying DC.

Mobile networks use DC heavily, this is well-known. Which is why I said,
this box was made for them.

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Mark Tinka

On 30/Jul/20 12:35, Baldur Norddahl wrote:

> To be fair there are more than two Juniper customers world wide that
> are using 48V DC. To my knowledge DC power is very common in the telco
> world.

DC is common, agreed. I just tend to avoid it.

During my Malaysia days, I found the company running kit on DC. When we
did the revamp of the network, we moved all of that to AC. Saved plenty
of space, simplified wiring and troubleshooting, and we were more native
with the data centres we housed in.

Same thing happened when I moved down to South Africa. Everything was on
DC, including the servers. Moved all that to AC, much to the delight of
our Facilities manager. Adding a UPS to support AC backup vs. adding
batteries and rectifiers, was good news.

More and more carrier-neutral data centres are now preferring AC. They
still do offer DC, but it's a whole thing that can cost extra depending
on where you are. I suppose it makes sense given that the cloud bags
need space, and they don't generally run their servers on DC.

There are some carrier-neutral DC's that don't offer any DC at all. All
they'll give you is footprint to deploy your own rectifier.

>
> What is special about ACX710 is probably the price point. They want a
> device for a certain market without loosing the ability to sell a
> higher priced device for another market.

I actually found out the reason why the ACX710 exists the way it does.
It's not what any of us think it is.

Suffice it to say, this box was built for mobile operators. 5G and what-not.

Mark.

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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Luis Balbinot

I work with telecom companies for years and DC is the standard for pretty
much all of them. If you have a small shelter or container you can deploy
an UPS DC system with a handful of batteries that will last for hours and
will not take much space. Look inside a mobile node B station and you’ll
only find DC power.

All major IDCs will provide you -48VDC too.

And to save a bit of money on power efficiency during the years.

Luis

On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 07:38 Baldur Norddahl  wrote:

>
>
> On 30.07.2020 10.29, Mark Tinka wrote:
> > The ACX710 was clearly built for one or two mobile network operators.
> > There is no doubt about that.
> >
> > Juniper have been making boxes that support both AC and DC for yonks.
> > Hardened and regular. What's so special about the ACX710? In 2020?
> >
>
> To be fair there are more than two Juniper customers world wide that are
> using 48V DC. To my knowledge DC power is very common in the telco world.
>
> What is special about ACX710 is probably the price point. They want a
> device for a certain market without loosing the ability to sell a higher
> priced device for another market.
>
> Regards,
>
> Baldur
>
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Baldur Norddahl





On 30.07.2020 10.29, Mark Tinka wrote:

The ACX710 was clearly built for one or two mobile network operators.
There is no doubt about that.

Juniper have been making boxes that support both AC and DC for yonks.
Hardened and regular. What's so special about the ACX710? In 2020?



To be fair there are more than two Juniper customers world wide that are 
using 48V DC. To my knowledge DC power is very common in the telco world.


What is special about ACX710 is probably the price point. They want a 
device for a certain market without loosing the ability to sell a higher 
priced device for another market.


Regards,

Baldur

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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Mark Tinka




On 30/Jul/20 10:19, Baldur Norddahl wrote:

> Not going to claim what is or is not a small issue for anyone here.
> Just saying that one rack unit external power supplies are plentiful
> and cheap. Like this one (just the first result on Google):
>
> https://www.simplypowersupply.com/Rack-Mount-Power-Supply/RCP-1000-48-Meanwell-48Vdc-1000W-Rack-Mount-Power-Supply.aspx
>
>
> We only have two datacentre locations and for those two location I
> would consider getting something like that. But I am probably going to
> go with the ACX5448 anyway because I could find a use for the extra
> 100G ports.
>
> The 20 locations are at the incumbents CO locations where 48 volt DC
> with battery and sometimes generator backup is what you get. You could
> get 230V AC at these locations but it would be without backup.
>
> In the future I might also get some locations in street cabinets,
> where I would put a standard DC UPS of the kind where you have a
> couple 12V batteries in series to make up the 48 volt, the equipment
> connected directly to the battery bank and a charger continuously
> charging the batteries. This is very cheap and extremely stable. The
> ACX710 device is environmentally hardened and clearly made for exactly
> that kind of deployment.

We considered all possible powering options before deciding that the
ACX710 is a show-stopper.

Rectifiers. UPS's. Solar. Solar + batteries. The works.

Over hundreds of sites dealing with thousands of devices, it's not going
to work. We'll spend too much time and money maintaining power, it
doesn't make sense.


>
> I see that ACX710 is not as much made for a specific customer as it is
> NOT made for a group of customers: the datacenter customers are
> supposed to buy the more expensive ACX5448. But said datacenter
> customers can spend one rack unit on an external DC powersupply and go
> with it anyway.

The ACX710 was clearly built for one or two mobile network operators.
There is no doubt about that.

Juniper have been making boxes that support both AC and DC for yonks.
Hardened and regular. What's so special about the ACX710? In 2020?

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Baldur Norddahl

On 29.07.2020 23.18, Mark Tinka wrote:

On 29/Jul/20 20:18, Baldur Norddahl wrote:

I am also going to get a few ACX5448 for our datacentre locations. I am
still considering getting some AC to DC powersupplies for the ACX710
because the cost saving is considerable. It is not like finding AC to DC
devices is hard - every laptop comes with one (yea I know too little
voltage).

If you are deploying 20, not a major issue.

If you're deploying several-hundred or several-thousands units, this is
not a small issue.

Not going to claim what is or is not a small issue for anyone here. Just
saying that one rack unit external power supplies are plentiful and
cheap. Like this one (just the first result on Google):

https://www.simplypowersupply.com/Rack-Mount-Power-Supply/RCP-1000-48-Meanwell-48Vdc-1000W-Rack-Mount-Power-Supply.aspx

We only have two datacentre locations and for those two location I would
consider getting something like that. But I am probably going to go with
the ACX5448 anyway because I could find a use for the extra 100G ports.

The 20 locations are at the incumbents CO locations where 48 volt DC
with battery and sometimes generator backup is what you get. You could
get 230V AC at these locations but it would be without backup.

In the future I might also get some locations in street cabinets, where
I would put a standard DC UPS of the kind where you have a couple 12V
batteries in series to make up the 48 volt, the equipment connected
directly to the battery bank and a charger continuously charging the
batteries. This is very cheap and extremely stable. The ACX710 device is
environmentally hardened and clearly made for exactly that kind of
deployment.

I see that ACX710 is not as much made for a specific customer as it is
NOT made for a group of customers: the datacenter customers are supposed
to buy the more expensive ACX5448. But said datacenter customers can
spend one rack unit on an external DC powersupply and go with it anyway.

Regards,

Baldur
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Mark Tinka

On 30/Jul/20 08:33, Daniel Verlouw wrote:

>
> which Nokia platform are you looking at? 7250 IXR is also
> Qumran/Jericho, Nokia is just hiding it everywhere they can...

All of Nokia's revised Metro-E platforms are Broadcom-based. It appears
to be the gentleman's handshake amongst all the equipment vendors that
Metro-E be cheap & cheerful, so they are all doing Broadcom.

We are looking at all of them:

  * IXR-e = Qumran UX
  * IXR-E = Qumran AX
  * IXR-s = Qumran MX
  * IXR-R4 = Qumran AX
  * IXR-R6 = Qumran MX
  * IXR-Xs = Jericho 2
  * IXR-X1 = Jericho 2

The Qumran units probably won't go anywhere with us. There is better
hope with the Jericho 2 unit, but even then, we are already seeing
fundamental issues on paper.

It's like I've been saying for some time now... if all the vendors are
going to be using the same chip for a platform in the same area of the
network, then the only differentiator is going to be what code customers
like to work with. Within the traditional vendors, I don't think that
matters much because their code is mature and well understood within the
networking community.

What you hear from the traditional vendors is that they "have the best
relationship with Brodacom vis-a-vis how they work with their SDK to
make the chip do what they want better than their competitors". If they
are all saying the same thing in that regard, not sure how true it is.

Ultimately, if you are going to end up with the same hardware issues
across all vendor platforms (unless some vendors decide to do clever but
costly things like recirculation, e.t.c.), what is the real value, then?

Mark.

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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Mark Tinka

On 30/Jul/20 00:53, mt wrote:
> Exactly!!!
>
> my SE confirmed that there the ACX710 will be shipped with only DC
> power supply.
>
> I really don't know what the Juniper engineering team are thinking,
> they are forgetting the basic things. They're focusing on a unique
> customer requirement, and for me this is a absurd.

They are clearly envying the model of the other vendor right down the
road in San Jose...

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-30 Thread Daniel Verlouw

Hi Mark,

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 4:24 PM Mark Tinka  wrote:
> I'm not sure I can be that patient, so I'm sniffing at Nokia's new
> Metro-E product line. The problem is so far, as with Juniper and Cisco,
> they've gone down the Broadcom route (some boxes shipping with Qumran,
> others with Jericho 2, and on-paper, they are already failing some of
> our forwarding requirements.

which Nokia platform are you looking at? 7250 IXR is also
Qumran/Jericho, Nokia is just hiding it everywhere they can...

  --Daniel.
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Shamen Snyder

Heads up on the ACX5448. There is a major LDP bug in the recommend code
19.3R2-S3.

LDP hellos are punted to the RE In queue rx-unknown-mc instead of
rxq-l3-nc-hi.

A major shift in multicast on our network dropped LDP neighbors.

The issue doesn’t happen in 20.2R1 if you find it’s stable (I haven’t). I
believe the PR is PR1503469 and should be going into 19.3R3.




On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:20 PM Baldur Norddahl  wrote:

> I am planning to deploy ACX710 with maybe 20 units (which for us is a huge
> number). We would have ordered DC in any case, so that is a non issue. We
> will have them at CO buildings were DC is what you get and maybe in the
> future in road side cabinets, where DC is the easy way to have some battery
> backup.
>
> I am also going to get a few ACX5448 for our datacentre locations. I am
> still considering getting some AC to DC powersupplies for the ACX710
> because the cost saving is considerable. It is not like finding AC to DC
> devices is hard - every laptop comes with one (yea I know too little
> voltage).
>
> Our purpose is to replace our MPLS core with new gear that has deep buffers
> and better support for traffic engineering etc. These will be P and PE
> routers mostly doing L2VPN. We will have a 100G ring topology of ACX710
> devices moving MPLS packets and terminating L2VPN.
>
> Seems to be a perfect fit to me. I am not interested in the older ACX
> devices which lacks buffers and is probably not much better than the gear
> we want to replace.
>
> Regards
>
> Baldur
>
>
> ons. 29. jul. 2020 16.25 skrev Mark Tinka :
>
> >
> >
> > On 29/Jul/20 15:49, Eric Van Tol wrote:
> > > We ran into this, too. We signed up to beta test at the beginning of
> > this year and nowhere, not even in discussions with our SE (who also
> wasn't
> > told by Juniper), was it mentioned it was a DC-only device. Imagine my
> > surprise when I received the box and it was DC only. Such a
> disappointment.
> >
> > The messaging we got from them earlier in the year about trying out
> > their new Metro-E box was that we would be happy with it, considering
> > that every Metro-E solution they've thrown at us since 2008 has fallen
> > flat, splat!
> >
> > Come game-time, even our own SE was blindsided by this DC-only support
> > on the ACX710. Proper show-stopper.
> >
> > At any rate, the story is that they should be pushing out some new
> > ACX7xxx boxes from next year, which should have AC support (to you
> > psych. majors: more for the general public, and not the custom-built
> > ACX710).
> >
> > I'm not sure I can be that patient, so I'm sniffing at Nokia's new
> > Metro-E product line. The problem is so far, as with Juniper and Cisco,
> > they've gone down the Broadcom route (some boxes shipping with Qumran,
> > others with Jericho 2, and on-paper, they are already failing some of
> > our forwarding requirements.
> >
> > It's not easy...
> >
> > Mark.
> >
> > ___
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> > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
> >
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Shamen Snyder

The Juniper Bolan architecture is suppose to have an AC variant.

 Hardened (-40C to 65C), compact (445m x 221mm x 250mm) form factor –
suitable for cabinets in pre-aggregation network layer
• 2 Routing Engine slots, 1:1 redundant control and forwarding/switching
plane
• 320Gb/s and 2.4 Tb/s RP Variants; Full FIB with 2.4Tb/s RP – 1.5M FIB
• Flexibility of 7 (DC versions) or 6 (AC versions) line card slots
• 8x1GE/10GE
• 8 x 10/25GE
• 2x40GE/100GE
• 4x40/100GE (C-Temp)

I haven’t been following it much, but may be worth poking your SE on.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:43 AM Mark Tinka  wrote:

> So an update on this thread...
>
> Juniper went ahead and made the ACX710 a DC-only box. So if you are an
> AC house, you're in deep doo-doo (which is us).
>
> DC, for large scale deployment in the Metro? Makes zero sense to me.
>
> Apparently, no way around this; which, to me, smells of the box being
> built for some larger operator (like mobile), who primarily have DC
> plants. And that's it - no other options for anyone else.
>
> Oh, these vendors...
>
> I haven't yet seen an ACX710 outside of a PDF, but deep scouring on the
> Internet led me to this:
>
>
>
> https://portal.nca.org.gh/search_type_approval_view_details.php?typeApproveDetailID=2244
>
> Some kind of type approval with National Communications Authority of Ghana.
>
> Mark.
>
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread mt


Exactly!!!

my SE confirmed that there the ACX710 will be shipped with only DC power 
supply.


I really don't know what the Juniper engineering team are thinking, they 
are forgetting the basic things. They're focusing on a unique customer 
requirement, and for me this is a absurd.


mt

Em 29/07/2020 18:18, Mark Tinka escreveu:


On 29/Jul/20 20:18, Baldur Norddahl wrote:

I am also going to get a few ACX5448 for our datacentre locations. I am
still considering getting some AC to DC powersupplies for the ACX710
because the cost saving is considerable. It is not like finding AC to DC
devices is hard - every laptop comes with one (yea I know too little
voltage).

If you are deploying 20, not a major issue.

If you're deploying several-hundred or several-thousands units, this is
not a small issue.

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Mark Tinka

On 29/Jul/20 20:18, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
> I am also going to get a few ACX5448 for our datacentre locations. I am
> still considering getting some AC to DC powersupplies for the ACX710
> because the cost saving is considerable. It is not like finding AC to DC
> devices is hard - every laptop comes with one (yea I know too little
> voltage).

If you are deploying 20, not a major issue.

If you're deploying several-hundred or several-thousands units, this is
not a small issue.

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Baldur Norddahl

I am planning to deploy ACX710 with maybe 20 units (which for us is a huge
number). We would have ordered DC in any case, so that is a non issue. We
will have them at CO buildings were DC is what you get and maybe in the
future in road side cabinets, where DC is the easy way to have some battery
backup.

I am also going to get a few ACX5448 for our datacentre locations. I am
still considering getting some AC to DC powersupplies for the ACX710
because the cost saving is considerable. It is not like finding AC to DC
devices is hard - every laptop comes with one (yea I know too little
voltage).

Our purpose is to replace our MPLS core with new gear that has deep buffers
and better support for traffic engineering etc. These will be P and PE
routers mostly doing L2VPN. We will have a 100G ring topology of ACX710
devices moving MPLS packets and terminating L2VPN.

Seems to be a perfect fit to me. I am not interested in the older ACX
devices which lacks buffers and is probably not much better than the gear
we want to replace.

Regards

Baldur

ons. 29. jul. 2020 16.25 skrev Mark Tinka :

>
>
> On 29/Jul/20 15:49, Eric Van Tol wrote:
> > We ran into this, too. We signed up to beta test at the beginning of
> this year and nowhere, not even in discussions with our SE (who also wasn't
> told by Juniper), was it mentioned it was a DC-only device. Imagine my
> surprise when I received the box and it was DC only. Such a disappointment.
>
> The messaging we got from them earlier in the year about trying out
> their new Metro-E box was that we would be happy with it, considering
> that every Metro-E solution they've thrown at us since 2008 has fallen
> flat, splat!
>
> Come game-time, even our own SE was blindsided by this DC-only support
> on the ACX710. Proper show-stopper.
>
> At any rate, the story is that they should be pushing out some new
> ACX7xxx boxes from next year, which should have AC support (to you
> psych. majors: more for the general public, and not the custom-built
> ACX710).
>
> I'm not sure I can be that patient, so I'm sniffing at Nokia's new
> Metro-E product line. The problem is so far, as with Juniper and Cisco,
> they've gone down the Broadcom route (some boxes shipping with Qumran,
> others with Jericho 2, and on-paper, they are already failing some of
> our forwarding requirements.
>
> It's not easy...
>
> Mark.
>
> ___
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> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Mark Tinka

On 29/Jul/20 15:49, Eric Van Tol wrote:
> We ran into this, too. We signed up to beta test at the beginning of this 
> year and nowhere, not even in discussions with our SE (who also wasn't told 
> by Juniper), was it mentioned it was a DC-only device. Imagine my surprise 
> when I received the box and it was DC only. Such a disappointment.

The messaging we got from them earlier in the year about trying out
their new Metro-E box was that we would be happy with it, considering
that every Metro-E solution they've thrown at us since 2008 has fallen
flat, splat!

Come game-time, even our own SE was blindsided by this DC-only support
on the ACX710. Proper show-stopper.

At any rate, the story is that they should be pushing out some new
ACX7xxx boxes from next year, which should have AC support (to you
psych. majors: more for the general public, and not the custom-built
ACX710).

I'm not sure I can be that patient, so I'm sniffing at Nokia's new
Metro-E product line. The problem is so far, as with Juniper and Cisco,
they've gone down the Broadcom route (some boxes shipping with Qumran,
others with Jericho 2, and on-paper, they are already failing some of
our forwarding requirements.

It's not easy...

Mark.

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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Eric Van Tol

We ran into this, too. We signed up to beta test at the beginning of this year 
and nowhere, not even in discussions with our SE (who also wasn't told by 
Juniper), was it mentioned it was a DC-only device. Imagine my surprise when I 
received the box and it was DC only. Such a disappointment.

-evt

On 7/29/20, 9:43 AM, "juniper-nsp on behalf of Mark Tinka" 
 wrote:

So an update on this thread...

Juniper went ahead and made the ACX710 a DC-only box. So if you are an
AC house, you're in deep doo-doo (which is us).

DC, for large scale deployment in the Metro? Makes zero sense to me.

Apparently, no way around this; which, to me, smells of the box being
built for some larger operator (like mobile), who primarily have DC
plants. And that's it - no other options for anyone else.

Oh, these vendors...

I haven't yet seen an ACX710 outside of a PDF, but deep scouring on the
Internet led me to this:



https://portal.nca.org.gh/search_type_approval_view_details.php?typeApproveDetailID=2244

Some kind of type approval with National Communications Authority of Ghana.

Mark.

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Re: [j-nsp] ACX5448 & ACX710 - Update!

2020-07-29 Thread Mark Tinka

So an update on this thread...

Juniper went ahead and made the ACX710 a DC-only box. So if you are an
AC house, you're in deep doo-doo (which is us).

DC, for large scale deployment in the Metro? Makes zero sense to me.

Apparently, no way around this; which, to me, smells of the box being
built for some larger operator (like mobile), who primarily have DC
plants. And that's it - no other options for anyone else.

Oh, these vendors...

I haven't yet seen an ACX710 outside of a PDF, but deep scouring on the
Internet led me to this:

   
https://portal.nca.org.gh/search_type_approval_view_details.php?typeApproveDetailID=2244

Some kind of type approval with National Communications Authority of Ghana.

Mark.

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