Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
I like Oliver's idea. That way, en-US can change its caps, commas, typos, formatted vs non-formatted typography on a daily basis to their heart's content without kicking the rest of the planet into the neolithic, l10n-wise. If I may point out the commercial angle on this - I charge $35 an hour for Gaelic proofreading. Perhaps it's a little cheaper for more common languages but even so, every time the developers kick 4000 (linguistically) pointless string changes at all other locales because the feeling is they're needed in en-US, that amounts to (gut estimate) 12 hours work, so multiply that by 115 locales, it's causing the rough equivalent of a $40.000 translation bill. Yes, we're translating pro bono publico but it's still a callous way of treating donated lifetime. Michael > > Lets invent a new language in the world named Liboish - LibreOffice > language - that in fact is often confused with en_US, but it is not the > same. > > I suggest to create a new entry in Pootle, named en-US so that we get a > translation from Liboish to English. Other languages translates directly > from Liboish and we are all happy not to redo our work. > > (Apologizes for the inapropriate sense of humour, but I saw this extra > work comming months ago. 99% of my 4.4 UI was rework) > > -- > Olivier Hallot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 30/11/2014 14:11, Mihovil Stanic wrote: > > 30.11.2014. u 9:10, Andras Timar je napisao/la: Program UI isn't a typography showcase. >>> Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office >>> suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it >>> didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a >>> better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, >>> I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement >>> typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core >>> applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was >>> only a matter of time. >> Fair enough, but please invent a process that makes these cosmetical >> changes transparent for translators. People don't want to retranslate >> or review 4000 strings just because you changed apostrophes in en-US. >> Not to mention that many languages are unmaintaned in Pootle, >> >> Thanks, >> Andras >> > > I agree with Andras, Yury and other, we don't need yet another cosmetic > change which serves no purpose and only requires hours and hours of work > to get BACK to where we are now. > > First we had those UI popup changes which changed access keys from ~ to > _. Some strings also changed but most didn't have any change except > that. That dragged on for 2 or 3 major releases. > > Then in 4.4 we got some more cosmetic changes which add : on end of > strings. Hundred of strings stayed same except for that, but hey, hours > and hours of work again. > > In 4.4 I also noticed quite few strings which only change was first > capital letter on some or all words in string. I'm wondering if english > has ANY rules regarding spelling or you can just put capital letter > anywhere you want. Anyway, that was cosmetic change also, since all of > my strings stayed same. > > And now we have biggest challenge of all in front of us, let's change > thousands of string in a way noone will notice, just those lazy people > who have nothing else to do except retranslate same old string and try > to write it same as it was. That's hardly possible since we don't have > TM for new strings, only old. > > Anyway, as Andras said, do what you want, but please fix all > translations your self or do it in a way it doesn't affect hundreds of > people. > > Mihovil > Lets invent a new language in the world named Liboish - LibreOffice language - that in fact is often confused with en_US, but it is not the same. I suggest to create a new entry in Pootle, named en-US so that we get a translation from Liboish to English. Other languages translates directly from Liboish and we are all happy not to redo our work. (Apologizes for the inapropriate sense of humour, but I saw this extra work comming months ago. 99% of my 4.4 UI was rework) -- Olivier Hallot Comunidade LibreOffice http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
Hi, 2014.11.30 16:23, Christian Lohmaier wrote: >>> I agree this will be annoying, because at the very least, the localizers >>> will have to re-approve a lot of their old translations when these >>> changes land. At least in the case of "don't" though, maybe this change >>> could be automated, if we ask Andras or Christian nicely? :) > Well, the only thing that can be done is to apply the old strings > despite the typographic changes, i.e. do a run that maps all > typographic quotes back to simple variants and then try to find an old > translation for that string and apply it. > In other words: Change the English string to typographic quotes, and > take the translations from the non-typographic variant. > > So translators wouldn't need to retranslate, but also wouldn't see > what strings did change. If this can be done, I'm sure it would make most localizers happier. Especially in cases like "don't", where the translation most likely doesn't even contain the glyph that has changed. As for quotes, these most likely exist in localized content as well, but I'd say it has been localizer's responsibility to use typographically correct ones from the very beginning. And for those of us don't care about "typographical nonsense", forcing them to resubmit hundreds of strings will hardly change that stance. Changes to ellipsis characters should probably be applied automatically as well, except for a few locales (like Japanese), for which Unicode ellipsis is displayed as three vertically aligned dots, which at least a couple years back seems to have been very unexpected in application UIs. Regards, Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
30.11.2014. u 9:10, Andras Timar je napisao/la: Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was only a matter of time. Fair enough, but please invent a process that makes these cosmetical changes transparent for translators. People don't want to retranslate or review 4000 strings just because you changed apostrophes in en-US. Not to mention that many languages are unmaintaned in Pootle, Thanks, Andras I agree with Andras, Yury and other, we don't need yet another cosmetic change which serves no purpose and only requires hours and hours of work to get BACK to where we are now. First we had those UI popup changes which changed access keys from ~ to _. Some strings also changed but most didn't have any change except that. That dragged on for 2 or 3 major releases. Then in 4.4 we got some more cosmetic changes which add : on end of strings. Hundred of strings stayed same except for that, but hey, hours and hours of work again. In 4.4 I also noticed quite few strings which only change was first capital letter on some or all words in string. I'm wondering if english has ANY rules regarding spelling or you can just put capital letter anywhere you want. Anyway, that was cosmetic change also, since all of my strings stayed same. And now we have biggest challenge of all in front of us, let's change thousands of string in a way noone will notice, just those lazy people who have nothing else to do except retranslate same old string and try to write it same as it was. That's hardly possible since we don't have TM for new strings, only old. Anyway, as Andras said, do what you want, but please fix all translations your self or do it in a way it doesn't affect hundreds of people. Mihovil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 11/30/2014 02:33 PM, Jesper Hertel wrote: Just because you do not like an idea or are afraid of its consequences there is no reason to shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent methods. That is never helpful. Oh dear. What to do then, if one doesn't like the idea and does NOT in fact have "fears", only dislike for the extra work for close to none good reason? I think sarcasm is valid here, likewise shooting down that which flies where it shouldn't. Anyway, I have suggested the *technology* of dealing with the problem generally, for ALL translations here. I have been exploiting the principle for years, back then. Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
Hi Yury, *, On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Yury Tarasievich wrote: > > Well, as Adolfo tells us, it's "bah" to Windows users". However, Linux's > en_US keymap (which I'm using right now) also does not have any of mentioned > glyphs on the compose key. Compose sequences should be the same regardless of keybloard layout, you probably mean they're not accessible using group-switch key (altGr) directly. (they are indeed not in the crippled plain en-US layout, but are in the international layout) But compose sequences are also available: compose, apostroph, less/greater (or compose, less/greater, apostroph, order usually doesn't matter with compose sequences) i.e. compose, ', > → ’ compose, ', < → ‘ same with the double quotation marks: compose, ", compose, ", > → ” compose, ", < → “ compose, >, > and compose << will give » and « But with a keyboard-layout that actually makes use of the different groups, you can also enter it with [+]+, shift usually switching between the single or double variants ( ›‹ vs »« and “” vs ‘’ for example) > I'm heavily using several fancy glyphs input add-ons in LO itself, and I > tell you, it's not all fun. >> I agree this will be annoying, because at the very least, the localizers >> will have to re-approve a lot of their old translations when these >> changes land. At least in the case of "don't" though, maybe this change >> could be automated, if we ask Andras or Christian nicely? :) Well, the only thing that can be done is to apply the old strings despite the typographic changes, i.e. do a run that maps all typographic quotes back to simple variants and then try to find an old translation for that string and apply it. In other words: Change the English string to typographic quotes, and take the translations from the non-typographic variant. So translators wouldn't need to retranslate, but also wouldn't see what strings did change. ciao Christian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
2014-11-30 13:01 GMT+01:00 Martin Srebotnjak : > Hi, Jesper, > > in LO Pootle 135 translation teams are stated. If we take out about 20 > teams with really scarce tranlations, that means 115 teams. > > 5 changed strings in English UI x 115 = 575 changed strings in > localization po files to re-translate > 115 people being affected by this change. > > Very good with that type of facts. Thank you. I wonder how many changed or new strings there were for instance from 4.3 to 4.4, for comparison? Relative numbers are always better, to put things into perspective. My guess, as I do not have the numbers and do not know how to find them, is perhaps 500 changes? Given that guess, that would be 5 changes (well, actually 12, as the 5 were only "don't") compared to 500 changes, or around 2 % of the total work. But how come we would have to retranslate? Is there really no technical way to make a change in the English string that is known to be purely a correction to the English string with no effect on the translation? That seems odd to me – but of course I accept that not everything is the way we wish and that everything takes work to make. It just seems somewhat viable to find a solution to avoid disturbing 115 people whenever a typo is found in the English strings. It must have happened several times before. > I am not aggressive and do not fight, > Well, I disagree on that. You said: "a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named PureOffice". I might have misunderstood, but I took that as sarcasm, and I see sarcasm (as opposed to irony) as aggression or hurtful emotional violence, in an attempt to redicule the other party. It is very possible to state one's opinions without resorting to that. > just state my views, which is the corner stone of democracy and > open-source mantra, I guess. > I absolutely agree! I have never said and never believed that one's views should not be stated – on the contrary! What I was talking about is the way they are stated. I believe they should be stated simply as views, but without putting other people down because they have differing views (as politicians so often do, which is why we are all tired of them). It is never necessary to put other people down because of their views. Just state your own view without putting other views down. That is what I am saying. > And it is my deep conviction that sarcasm should not be banned, > Well, we disagree on that. As I said, I see it as a form of emotional violence (as opposed to irony), and I really don't like that. I believe it is counter-productive and harmful. Maybe it shouldn't be directly banned, but I do believe it should be very minimized when speaking in a large forum like this. Just like other offensive ways of speaking are not welcome (like "f... you, you little s...!" :-)). > it is not illegal > I never said it was illegal, and I know of no countries where it is. > and it sometimes does put problems into perspective in a very direct and > fast way - so it can be quite useful. > Oh definitely, yes, and the same can be said about other types of violence (as I still believe it is): Definitely useful and powerful for the one using it, but also definitely hurtful for the victim. And I do not find personal usefulness with disregard to the victim to be a sufficient reason to actually use it. I do believe in staying with rationality and respect. I simply don't believe in violence, neither physical nor emotional (except perhaps for extreme and very rare cases for immediate defence against aggression). But, as I said, I believe very much in stating one's opinions and that all opinions are welcome. But respecting other's opinions without putting them down is an integral part of that, and sarcasm and other forms of emotional violence do have the effect of suppressing other people's views, as they become afraid of stating their opinion if it can result in emotional violence against them. That is exactly what is used by the leaders of oppressive political systems: They use physical and emotional violence to suppress people from expressing their views. For those leaders, it is very efficient, as you said, but for democracy and openness I really cannot see how it is helpful. Or did you mean that sarcasm is good both for the one using it and for the target? That the target will also find it is a good and constructive way of communicating? Do you think the use of sarcasm increases or lowers the aggression or amount of stress in the target? > > Lp, m. > > Best regards, Jesper -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
Hi, Jesper, in LO Pootle 135 translation teams are stated. If we take out about 20 teams with really scarce tranlations, that means 115 teams. 5 changed strings in English UI x 115 = 575 changed strings in localization po files to re-translate 115 people being affected by this change. I am not aggressive and do not fight, just state my views, which is the corner stone of democracy and open-source mantra, I guess. And it is my deep conviction that sarcasm should not be banned, it is not illegal and it sometimes does put problems into perspective in a very direct and fast way - so it can be quite useful. Lp, m. 2014-11-30 12:33 GMT+01:00 Jesper Hertel : > Please, guys, those of you who want to fight, could you please step > outside and do that, so the rest of us can work? > > Just because you do not like an idea or are afraid of its consequences > there is no reason to shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent methods. > That is never helpful. > > If you have fears, which I see you all have, and for very good reasons, > simply state the fears. Then we can talk about them in a rational manner > and try to find a good, balanced and viable solution. Don't let the fears > turn into aggression. > > And if you can, supply exact numbers and sources to help show how big a > potential problem it is. > > Best regards, > Jesper > > > 2014-11-30 10:40 GMT+01:00 Martin Srebotnjak : > >> For those purposes a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named >> PureOffice. >> But there would probably be no 100 % localizations provided for it. >> >> Lp, m. >> >> 2014-11-30 8:30 GMT+01:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos : >> >> > 2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: >> > > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact >> > that >> > > there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those >> > "fancy" >> > > glyphs. >> > >> > Wrong. >> > >> > OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at >> > all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to >> > do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in >> > Windows, but bah. >> > >> > > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. >> > >> > Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office >> > suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it >> > didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a >> > better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, >> > I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement >> > typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core >> > applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was >> > only a matter of time. >> > >> > -- >> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >> > Problems? >> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> > Posting guidelines + more: >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ >> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> > deleted >> > >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >> Problems? >> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> deleted >> > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
Please, guys, those of you who want to fight, could you please step outside and do that, so the rest of us can work? Just because you do not like an idea or are afraid of its consequences there is no reason to shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent methods. That is never helpful. If you have fears, which I see you all have, and for very good reasons, simply state the fears. Then we can talk about them in a rational manner and try to find a good, balanced and viable solution. Don't let the fears turn into aggression. And if you can, supply exact numbers and sources to help show how big a potential problem it is. Best regards, Jesper 2014-11-30 10:40 GMT+01:00 Martin Srebotnjak : > For those purposes a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named PureOffice. > But there would probably be no 100 % localizations provided for it. > > Lp, m. > > 2014-11-30 8:30 GMT+01:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos : > > > 2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: > > > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact > > that > > > there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those > > "fancy" > > > glyphs. > > > > Wrong. > > > > OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at > > all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to > > do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in > > Windows, but bah. > > > > > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. > > > > Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office > > suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it > > didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a > > better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, > > I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement > > typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core > > applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was > > only a matter of time. > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 11/30/2014 12:07 PM, Yury Tarasievich wrote: ... What's strictly "incorrect" in straight apostrophe, anyway? ... Anyway, here's an idea for you guys about to suffer from this: diff the en_US source before and after apostrophe nice-fication, then create a program which looks at the apostrophe-change IDs only in source, and at the corresponding IDs in your translation, and does only the apo-nice-fication of the translation (straight confirmation, for that matter) if the diff boils down to apostrophes. Shouldn't be too difficult, 10 years ago I was able to throw together AWK script doing approximately this for the Opera UI translation and maintain win/unix pair for a while with (almost) no pain. Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
For those purposes a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named PureOffice. But there would probably be no 100 % localizations provided for it. Lp, m. 2014-11-30 8:30 GMT+01:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos : > 2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: > > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact > that > > there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those > "fancy" > > glyphs. > > Wrong. > > OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at > all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to > do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in > Windows, but bah. > > > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. > > Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office > suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it > didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a > better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, > I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement > typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core > applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was > only a matter of time. > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 11/30/2014 11:23 AM, Rimas Kudelis wrote: 2014.11.30 07:38, Yury Tarasievich rašė: ... And if you use Windows and want to make inputting these characters even more convenient, you can always customize your keyboard layout adding missing typographical symbols to the AltGr (or any other) layer. Here's a free tool to do that: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx. Well, as Adolfo tells us, it's "bah" to Windows users". However, Linux's en_US keymap (which I'm using right now) also does not have any of mentioned glyphs on the compose key. I'm heavily using several fancy glyphs input add-ons in LO itself, and I tell you, it's not all fun. Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Why not leave the pragmatic simplification which serves it purpose? Does it break anything? I agree this will be annoying, because at the very least, the localizers will have to re-approve a lot of their old translations when these changes land. At least in the case of "don't" though, maybe this change could be automated, if we ask Andras or Christian nicely? :) I can guess with some confidence that having to redo apostrophes in, like, thousand strings by hand (and you can't automate, apostrophe's use in technology being what it is) just to have "correct" characters in the UI feels more like a slap in a face. What's strictly "incorrect" in straight apostrophe, anyway? Is any REAL purpose actually served by this change? Like, will anybody notice this or appreciate this or-so-nice touch in the computer screen material? Will this conceal the fact that LibreO/ApacheOO itself isn't that great in typography in the documents it produces? Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
2014.11.30 07:38, Yury Tarasievich rašė: > On 11/30/2014 05:13 AM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote: > ... >> In case you guys didn’t know, Apple [1], Microsoft [2] and GNOME [3] >> are all recommending the use of typographical apostrophes and >> quotation marks, among other characters that have been historically > ... > > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact > that there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all > those "fancy" glyphs. > > In OpenOffice (and in Word?) you may have add-ons, auto-correcting > some of those cases. Otherwise than that you'd have to install > smarty-pants (often, pain-in-the-..., too) keyboard input correctors > or resort to mouse-clicking in the glyph tables. Just a reminder: in Pootle, it's possible to specify harder-to-input characters for each language, which are then made available below the text input field when localizing. While it's less convenient than inputting them with the keyboard, it's still better than having a separate character map application launched just to copy these few characters. Furthermore, I think Pootle even shows such Unicode characters in the source string as placeables, making them clickable. And if you use Windows and want to make inputting these characters even more convenient, you can always customize your keyboard layout adding missing typographical symbols to the AltGr (or any other) layer. Here's a free tool to do that: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx. >> I am actually planning to update the rest of strings in LibreOffice to >> use the correct characters, but I guessed I had already annoyed the >> other translators too much for this version, so that would be in 4.5. > > So you will still annoy the translators, only more. > > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Why not leave the pragmatic > simplification which serves it purpose? Does it break anything? I agree this will be annoying, because at the very least, the localizers will have to re-approve a lot of their old translations when these changes land. At least in the case of "don't" though, maybe this change could be automated, if we ask Andras or Christian nicely? :) Regards, Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote: > 2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: >> Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact that >> there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those "fancy" >> glyphs. > > Wrong. > > OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at > all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to > do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in > Windows, but bah. > >> Program UI isn't a typography showcase. > > Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office > suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it > didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a > better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, > I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement > typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core > applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was > only a matter of time. Fair enough, but please invent a process that makes these cosmetical changes transparent for translators. People don't want to retranslate or review 4000 strings just because you changed apostrophes in en-US. Not to mention that many languages are unmaintaned in Pootle, Thanks, Andras -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact that > there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those "fancy" > glyphs. Wrong. OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in Windows, but bah. > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was only a matter of time. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 11/30/2014 05:13 AM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote: ... In case you guys didn’t know, Apple [1], Microsoft [2] and GNOME [3] are all recommending the use of typographical apostrophes and quotation marks, among other characters that have been historically ... Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact that there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those "fancy" glyphs. In OpenOffice (and in Word?) you may have add-ons, auto-correcting some of those cases. Otherwise than that you'd have to install smarty-pants (often, pain-in-the-..., too) keyboard input correctors or resort to mouse-clicking in the glyph tables. I am actually planning to update the rest of strings in LibreOffice to use the correct characters, but I guessed I had already annoyed the other translators too much for this version, so that would be in 4.5. So you will still annoy the translators, only more. Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Why not leave the pragmatic simplification which serves it purpose? Does it break anything? Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
