Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Since the question of language classes for immigrants in Germany has been discussed here recently, I post an article from the Frankfurter Rundschau (left of center, usually pro red-Green) http://www.fr-aktuell.de/english/401/t401004.htm The article is quite representative for the Red-Green 'juste milieu' that identifies integration with assimilation. Note the remarks on 'what it means to belong to a democracy' and the Muslim women. At the one hand the German state is demanding 'integration' and the knowledge of German, on the other hand it denies an edequate funding, packing more students in a class and threatening classes providing child care. In this context the concerns for 'Muslim women' are exposed what they are: hypocrisy. Johannes Germany - Language Courses MORE GERMAN FOR THE MONEY - THROUGH 'SYNERGY' Germany plans to overhaul language courses for foreigners By Ursula Ruessmann Frankfurt - Germany's Social Democrat-Green Party coalition government has finally got around to doing what organisations working with foreign workers have been demanding for years - scheduling a complete overhaul for the country's language courses for foreigners. The most important change is a plan to include more foreigners to take part in official German courses than has been the case so far. The organisations have, however, also identified "dramatic weaknesses" in the new plans. Many people have been beavering away on this reform for months: several ministries - employment, family, finance, the interior - and government specialists dealing with policies relating to foreign workers and "Aussiedler", Russian families of German descent who have been resettled in Germany since World War II. According to an interior ministry speaker, a task force set up jointly by the ministries involved will probably publish its findings this or next week. One thing is already clear - Berlin won't be putting any more money into the undertaking, despite permitting more people to take part in the courses. The 131 million dollar budget will not be increased - instead, everyone will count on synergy and its effects playing a decisive role. In future, there will be a six-month basic German course, with younger immigrants taking part in another three-month course intended to prepare them for the labour market. Any naturalised Russian Germans who fail to find a job after their foundation course will get to do another. The new proposals are to take effect in 2002. Immigrants to Germany who can't speak the language face a major obstacle to integration into German society. For this reason, Harald Loehlein, expert on refugees and Russian Germans at the Deutsche Paritaetische Wohlfahrtsverband (DPWV) - a workers' welfare organisation - hailed the reforms as the "first step towards an adequate policy of assimilation". Roberto Alborino from the Germany's Caritas organistion said it's high time that more immigrants receive support. Current schemes have, he said, nothing to do with present-day patterns of immigration. "They leave too many foreigners out," he said. Until now, only a selct group were allowed to paticipate in state-funded language courses - Russian Germans, people who have been granted certain types of asylum or the families of foreigners working in Germany, so long as they were from other European Union states or the countries Germany once got many of its immigrant labourers from. This has had some absurd consequences. Turks who move to Germany to be with their spouses can attend a course, but Kurdish asylum seekers or a Ghanaian married to a German can't. According to estimates, up to half of all foreigners could be excluded from courses in a city like Frankfurt, where a third of the population is originally from elsewhere. A solution is now in sight. Non-German relatives of "Aussiedler" will be accepted into the courses. The number of people who have been granted asylum and are entitled to take part in these courses has also been increased. Asylum seekers are still excluded, however. As the organisations involved have pointed out, the reforms don't apply to anyone who is living in Germany with a short-term residency permit as opposed to lifelong asylum. Green Party's spokeswoman Marieluise Beck has demanded that an exception be made for at least those protected by the European Convention of Human Rights. The DPWV is also unhappy that immigrants receive state support to learn German only during their first three years here. Anyone who has lived here for longer is not eligible for a course. According to Loehlein, foreign women are thus put at a severe disadvantage - raising children often prevents them from joining integration programmes. Party spoleswoman Beck tried in vain to introduce a transitional period; courses which include child- care are also under threat. Everyone agrees that the 600 hours in each course should teach immigrants
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
On Sun, Sep 03, 2000 at 07:51:53PM +0200, A.Wosni wrote: > Sorry folks, > I posted this wrongly to the LI-list. It was for Johannes privately. > A.H. Thanx For quating the whole thing again her A.H. "I know it is cheap" Tabe ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Sorry folks, I posted this wrongly to the LI-list. It was for Johannes privately. A.H. A.Wosni schrieb: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: > > > Lieber Johannes, > > > ich schreibe Dir privat, weil ich keine Lust mehr habe, diese Diskussion > > > auf der > > > LI-Liste fortzuführen. > > > > Lieber Lothar, > > ich verstehe Deinen beleidigten Unterton eigentlich nicht. > > [Ich bin verwundert. Ich habe mich nicht beleidigt gefühlt.] > > Gerade > > öffentliche Diskussionen leben gerade von kontroversen Standpunkten. Wo > > Polemiken in > > persönliche Beleidigungen ausarten, haben sowohl Nestor als auch ich das > > gerade bei den unfairen Angriffen auf Dich sofort und teilweise auch > > öffentlich unterbunden. > > > > Da Du mir nun persönlich schreibst, gehe ich davon aus, dass das Thema > > auch für Dich noch nicht ausdiskutiert ist, Du Dich jedoch scheust Deine > > Argumente einer öffentlichen Kritik auszusetzen. > > [Ich habe kein Problem mit 'öffentlichen' Diskussionen (im Gegenteil). Wenn > man > aber immer wieder genötigt wird, auf Unterstellungen zu antworten, wird es > langweilig. Wenn Du die Dislkussion verfolgt hast, wirst Du feststellen, daß > irgendwelcheLeute dauernd behaupten, ich hätte dieses gesagt odere jenes , > und > dann darauf fröhlich einprügeln. Das Problem war, daß ich nichts dergleichen > gesagt habe.Da ich davon ausgehe, daß die Kontrahenten im technischen Sinne > alle > intelligent sind und auch lesen können, muß ich schließen, daß sie aus > politischen Gründen nicht verstehen können oder wollen, was ich sage. Was > soll > ich da noch drauf antworten?] > > > > > Ich denke es ist überhaupt nicht strittig, dass es im Interesse der > > Arbeiterbewegung ist, alle trennenden kulturellen Barieren (wovon Sprache > nur > > eine > > ist) zu überwinden. > [Offenbar doch: Irgendwer schrieb, daß es eine Zumutung sei, den > Emigranten das Lernen der Sprache der Bourgeoisie zu empfehlen] > > Strittig ist lediglich mit welchen Mitteln das erreicht > > wird. > > > > Beste Grüße > > > > Johannes > > > > -- > > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > > > ___ > > Leninist-International mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international > > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
On why folks are alingual. When we kidnapped folks from Africa, they brought west African grammar. The verb to be is not conjugated. This lead to Black English phrases like "He be going." Now, if you are familiar with it, you can still understand it. What is unfortunate, is that some people don't realize that in the business world, folks use standard English. They think that their usage is standard English. I have tried repeatedly to explain that in writings to the powers that be, one should put a helping verb before the past participle. They always use it alone. "I seen it." White Americans do this do. This is why I have supported the Oakland school district's use of Ebonics. It is easier to learn a language if your teacher also speaks your language and treats it with respect. This leads to another cause of alingualism. California has passed laws severely limiting bilingual education. US citizens are the laughing stock of the world because so few of us know any other language. Senator Hyakawa used to brag about it. And it makes it more difficult for other language speakers to learn English. Studies have shown that children who are taught in their own language and the new one, excel in all subjects, knowing the grammar of both the languages. The proponents of English only are not interested in educated kids, only in immigrant bashing. I apologize for my own misspellings. I am no typist, have a disability of numb hands, an am abominable speller, and forget to use spell check. ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
I agree that a ghetto has not come to mean a physical enclave like in old Poland. I live in what is called the ghetto in Sacramento. We have a mix of Latino, Southeast Asian, poor whites, and Black folks. But, our state senator lives here. We have different ethnicities scattered throughout the city. What shocked me was how close the rich and poor neighborhoods are to each other. The rich have tried to remedy this by building way out in the country in Rancho Murieta and Granite Bay. But the older well to do neighborhood are within walking distance of the poor. Nestor is correct about a cultural ghetto. We do have concentrations of Native Americans in the southeast of town, Chinese in the near southwest, Russians in West Sacramento (a city on its own in another county). But they do tend to worship and socialize as ethnic groups. Those cultures that are patriarchal tend to isolate their women (and elderly relatives) so yes they are the ones without English skills. While we are on this subject, there is another phenominon that I find even more disturbing. I call it alingualism. California spends the most of any other state on prisons and is 47th in educational spending. My father was in the military so I lived in two countries and many places. Other countries have better educational systems than the US. California's is one of the worst. Even the college educated can't use proper grammar. Those with less education, can't make an English sentence. When you attempt to correct them, they argue with you. They also have poor knowledge of geography. I have had co-workers who don't understand the concepts that Denver is a city in the state of Colorado and that South Africa is a country and not a region. They have little knowledge of history and what they do know is very biased. What is very shocking is the lack of knowledge of religious matters. I, as an atheist, am one of the few folks who have read the entire Bible. When we do cross word puzzles, I, in a room of of Christians, am the only one to get Bibilical references. I am certainly rare in that I have read half of the Koran, many Buddhist texts, a summery of the Kabbalah, smatterings of what are called "pagan" religions. What this means is that folks are ripe for unscrupulous religious leaders who interepret religious texts to create followers. This is strongly encouraged by the government and the Republican party. This general ignorance is why US citizens vote so naively and make political decisions not in their own interest. ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: > > Lieber Johannes, > > ich schreibe Dir privat, weil ich keine Lust mehr habe, diese Diskussion > > auf der > > LI-Liste fortzuführen. > > Lieber Lothar, > ich verstehe Deinen beleidigten Unterton eigentlich nicht. [Ich bin verwundert. Ich habe mich nicht beleidigt gefühlt.] Gerade > öffentliche Diskussionen leben gerade von kontroversen Standpunkten. Wo > Polemiken in > persönliche Beleidigungen ausarten, haben sowohl Nestor als auch ich das > gerade bei den unfairen Angriffen auf Dich sofort und teilweise auch > öffentlich unterbunden. > > Da Du mir nun persönlich schreibst, gehe ich davon aus, dass das Thema > auch für Dich noch nicht ausdiskutiert ist, Du Dich jedoch scheust Deine > Argumente einer öffentlichen Kritik auszusetzen. [Ich habe kein Problem mit 'öffentlichen' Diskussionen (im Gegenteil). Wenn man aber immer wieder genötigt wird, auf Unterstellungen zu antworten, wird es langweilig. Wenn Du die Dislkussion verfolgt hast, wirst Du feststellen, daß irgendwelcheLeute dauernd behaupten, ich hätte dieses gesagt odere jenes , und dann darauf fröhlich einprügeln. Das Problem war, daß ich nichts dergleichen gesagt habe.Da ich davon ausgehe, daß die Kontrahenten im technischen Sinne alle intelligent sind und auch lesen können, muß ich schließen, daß sie aus politischen Gründen nicht verstehen können oder wollen, was ich sage. Was soll ich da noch drauf antworten?] > > Ich denke es ist überhaupt nicht strittig, dass es im Interesse der > Arbeiterbewegung ist, alle trennenden kulturellen Barieren (wovon Sprache nur > eine > ist) zu überwinden. [Offenbar doch: Irgendwer schrieb, daß es eine Zumutung sei, den Emigranten das Lernen der Sprache der Bourgeoisie zu empfehlen] Strittig ist lediglich mit welchen Mitteln das erreicht > wird. > > Beste Grüße > > Johannes > > -- > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
--- "A.Wosni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lieber Johannes, > ich schreibe Dir privat, weil ich keine Lust mehr > habe, diese Diskussion auf der > LI-Liste fortzuführen. I think it's interesting that as we are holding this discussion a book has just been published in Germany consisting of stories written by young "Germans" who are immigrants or children of immigrants (1 or 2) in German. It was reviewed this week in Junge Welt. I forget now which day and what the book's name was, something like "more than German." Aber natuerlich alles auf deutsch. I also think that in this discussion we must be clear that there is, in Germany as in the U.S., a difference between the different sectors of the working class and the content of their attitude toward language. The German workers (and communists) are members of the oppressor nation, even though they too are exploited. If they learn Turkish, for example, in order to reach out to Turkish workers, this shows respect for the language and culture of the oppressed nation. That's what communists should be interested in doing not only because it is proper but because it can help build class solidarity. Of course it's in the interest of both individual immigrant workers and for aiding communication among all the workers that they learn the national and dominant language. But is also reasonable that many will resent learning that language. And some will resist it. And some Turkish political leaders, even those who want dearly to make revolution in Turkey, may want the Turkish immigrant workers to stay oriented toward Turkey rather than assimilating, integrating into Germany. Other Turkish communists might argue that Turkish immigrants should fight for their rights within Germany as part of the working class. I would consider that an issue to be discussed among the Turkish workers and communists. (I would have a similar attitude toward Spanish within the U.S.) In Argentina it is a somewhat different issue because the Argentine bourgeoisie does not oppress Italy; it never had the opportunity to. Trotsky was opposed to Jewish nationalism. He also could argue as a member of that community. He wasn't implying that French language was somehow "superior." It is really not analagous to the situation in Germany today. John Catalinotto __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Sorry comrades, shame on me, but my previous posting was not intended to be sent anywhere. Just for my excuse I am not working from my own box today and sometimes these nasty machines do things they are not supposed to do. I promise to stay away from any keyboard for the rest of the weekend. Johannes -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
> Lieber Johannes, > ich schreibe Dir privat, weil ich keine Lust mehr habe, diese Diskussion > auf der > LI-Liste fortzuführen. Lieber Lothar, ich verstehe Deinen beleidigten Unterton eigentlich nicht. Gerade öffentliche Diskussionen leben gerade von kontroversen Standpunkten. Wo Polemiken in persönliche Beleidigungen ausarten, haben sowohl Nestor als auch ich das gerade bei den unfairen Angriffen auf Dich sofort und teilweise auch öffentlich unterbunden. Da Du mir nun persönlich schreibst, gehe ich davon aus, dass das Thema auch für Dich noch nicht ausdiskutiert ist, Du Dich jedoch scheust Deine Argumente einer öffentlichen Kritik auszusetzen. Ich denke es ist überhaupt nicht strittig, dass es im Interesse der Arbeiterbewegung ist, alle trennenden kulturellen Barieren (wovon Sprache nur eine ist) zu überwinden. Strittig ist lediglich mit welchen Mitteln das erreicht wird. Beste Grüße Johannes -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Lieber Johannes, ich schreibe Dir privat, weil ich keine Lust mehr habe, diese Diskussion auf der LI-Liste fortzuführen. Nur soviel. Ich stimme Dir hier (wie ja auch sonst meistens) im allgemeinen zu. Allerdings ist es nicht nur im Interesse der Bourgeoisie, daß die Immigranten die Mehrheitssprache lernen, sondern ebensosehr in dem der Arbeiterbewegung. Trotzki schrieb am 10.5.1930 (ich zitiere aus der engl. Ausgabe)in einem 'letter to Klorheit and to the Jewish workers in France':"...Do the Jewish workers in France, in theirmajority,consider themselves permanent immigrants,ordio they< expect to leavethe country in the near future? I believe the first is more correct.If this is the case, it is very important toacquire the French language. In the givensituation,this is not only in the interest of each person, but also in the political interest of the French andinternational working class." Für das Nicht-Lernen der Sprache oder für das sichvonder unterdrückerischen Gesellschaft Abschließen gibt es alle möglichen nachvollziehbaren Gründe, aber es ist 'selfdefeating' und nicht progressiv. Es ist z.B. nicht progressiv, wenn die Chefs türkischer 'linker' Gruppen (wie mir aus glaubhafter türkischer Quelle mehrfach versuchert wurde) ihre rank § file Mitglieder nicht nur nicht auffordern, Deutsch zu lernen, sondern sie daran zu hindern versuchen. Der Hintergrund war im allgemeinen ein doppelter: 1.Abhängigkeit von den Führern, die natürlich Deutsch lernten, 2. Zusammenhalt 'linker' Gruppen,die nationalistisch praktisch ausschließlich auf die Türkei orientiert waren. Beste Grüße,Lothar xxx [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: > Nestor wrote: > > > But the basic question is "why does not the German > > formation work in order to have these migrants learn German?". In > > Argentina, European migrants were very proud that they did not speak > > the same language that the unworthy locals, but the Argentine > > formation took the pains to educate them into our own language, and > > if not themselves their children were lucky not only to learn Spanish > > but also to attain a higher level of education they would have ever > > attained in Europe. There was an interest of the Argentinian ruling > > classes to include those newcomers into the country. There does not > > seem to exist such an interest among the German ruling classes today. > > I have been away from any computer for a few days so I could not comment > on the 'language' discussion. As I have stated before anything relating to > immigration is in my opinion of key signifigance for revolutionaries in > imperialist countries. Unfortunately the discussion heres has got a > personalized > tone sometimes, and I fear comrades outside Germany got a wrong impression > about reality in Germany. > > Actually there are very few immigrants who do not know enough German to > communicate. Almost any job in Germany will need at least very basic German > language skills, only in very few jobs (cleaning, kitchen) you can get along > without any German. > > Furthermore there are no 'ghettos' in the US-American sense of the word. > There are several resons for this fact. Due to the industrial structure of > Germany distribution of immigrants is relativly even (e.g. compared to the > UK). Immigration to Germany is coming from several countries, all having > different languages, thus simply the 'critical' mass of forming a national > ghetto > lacked. When Germans refer to certain inner city areas as ghettos, its just > a neighborhood with a high percentage of immigrants from different nations, > but even there the 'lingua franca' will be German. > > Generally the ruling class in Germany has a economic interest that the > immigrants learn German, thats why there is state funding for language > classes. > The reason is obvious: most jobs require at least some German. After all > one of the economic benefit (for the capitalist class) of immigration lies in > the fact that almost no education has to be paid for, since immigrants > usually arrive, when having finished their eductation in their home > countries. So > paying for just a language course is a very cheap way of geting a fully > educated worker. > > Of course there are immigrants who do not know any German and even did not > try (or get a chance) to learn it. Mostly they are women from the first > generation of immigrants. Generally they came a few years later than their > husbands and never intended to work in Germany. Given their daily life, they > simply dont see much profit from learning a more or less difficult language at > their age. From their perspective (opposed to the perspective of a German > university graduate) a not so stupid decission. > > >From the discussion I got the impression Anton (and Nestor at least in the > case of Argentina) are favouring the idea of some compulsory language > courses for immigrants. Let me say I oppose this for v
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
En relación a Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?, el 31 Aug 00, a las 18:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] dijo: > I fear comrades > outside Germany got a wrong impression about reality in Germany. > > Actually there are very few immigrants who do not know enough German > to communicate. Almost any job in Germany will need at least very > basic German language skills, only in very few jobs (cleaning, > kitchen) you can get along without any German. > > Furthermore there are no 'ghettos' in the US-American sense of the > word. I have already commented this on private mail to Johannes (welcome back, by the way). I was not thinking of a "physical" ghetto, but of a "social" ghetto. Social phaenomena don't always have a direct and visible physical expression. The idea, moreover, was that, _if_ there existed layers of Gästarbeiter who did not manage the language of their new country properly, it was not them, but the social formation that received them, which should be put to blame. I do generally think, by the way, that learning languages is useful, always. So that learning the language that is widespread in the country you are happening to live in should be useful. If there is no societal move towards teaching you that language, this must mean something not on you, but on the society. > Generally the ruling class in Germany has a economic interest that the > immigrants learn German, thats why there is state funding for language > classes. The reason is obvious: most jobs require at least some > German. After all one of the economic benefit (for the capitalist > class) of immigration lies in the fact that almost no education has to > be paid for, since immigrants usually arrive, when having finished > their eductation in their home countries. So paying for just a > language course is a very cheap way of geting a fully educated worker. True and interesting. Most interesting, in fact, is the comprobation that even in this sense semicolonial realities are the opposite as they are in central countries. The mass of migrants to Argentina were less literate than local Argentinian population, and it was Argentina that took the job of raising them above illiteracy. > > Of course there are immigrants who do not know any German and even did > not try (or get a chance) to learn it. Mostly they are women from the > first generation of immigrants. Generally they came a few years later > than their husbands and never intended to work in Germany. Given their > daily life, they simply dont see much profit from learning a more or > less difficult language at their age. From their perspective (opposed > to the perspective of a German university graduate) a not so stupid > decission. This decission implies to agree on the isolation of women at home. This is a "sound" decission under the condition that women are kept as if a piece of furniture... > > From the discussion I got the impression Anton (and Nestor at least in > the case of Argentina) are favouring the idea of some compulsory > language courses for immigrants. No, not at all. What I mean is that the conditions must be generated (and if they do not exist, they must be the result of some kind of struggle) for migrants to be interested in mixing with the local culture. This will in the end bring the best results to this culture itself. Cultural miscegenation is probably the most fruitful kind of miscegenation one can conceive of. Let me say I oppose this for various > reasons. The first one is just a practical one: I dont think you will > make much progress in subject you are just forced to study, especially > learning languages needs some sort of effort from the student if > there should be any success. Replied to above. > > The second reason why I oppose compulsory language classes is > political: In the present discussion in Germany 'language' just stands > for 'integration' a term hated by most immigrants in Germany today. I > will show in a seperate post, why 'integration' is the key bourgeois > ideology in the field of immigration in Germany today. This is interesting. So that migrants would prefer to become an island within another country? Strange, indeed. Please comment. Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Nestor wrote: > But the basic question is "why does not the German > formation work in order to have these migrants learn German?". In > Argentina, European migrants were very proud that they did not speak > the same language that the unworthy locals, but the Argentine > formation took the pains to educate them into our own language, and > if not themselves their children were lucky not only to learn Spanish > but also to attain a higher level of education they would have ever > attained in Europe. There was an interest of the Argentinian ruling > classes to include those newcomers into the country. There does not > seem to exist such an interest among the German ruling classes today. I have been away from any computer for a few days so I could not comment on the 'language' discussion. As I have stated before anything relating to immigration is in my opinion of key signifigance for revolutionaries in imperialist countries. Unfortunately the discussion heres has got a personalized tone sometimes, and I fear comrades outside Germany got a wrong impression about reality in Germany. Actually there are very few immigrants who do not know enough German to communicate. Almost any job in Germany will need at least very basic German language skills, only in very few jobs (cleaning, kitchen) you can get along without any German. Furthermore there are no 'ghettos' in the US-American sense of the word. There are several resons for this fact. Due to the industrial structure of Germany distribution of immigrants is relativly even (e.g. compared to the UK). Immigration to Germany is coming from several countries, all having different languages, thus simply the 'critical' mass of forming a national ghetto lacked. When Germans refer to certain inner city areas as ghettos, its just a neighborhood with a high percentage of immigrants from different nations, but even there the 'lingua franca' will be German. Generally the ruling class in Germany has a economic interest that the immigrants learn German, thats why there is state funding for language classes. The reason is obvious: most jobs require at least some German. After all one of the economic benefit (for the capitalist class) of immigration lies in the fact that almost no education has to be paid for, since immigrants usually arrive, when having finished their eductation in their home countries. So paying for just a language course is a very cheap way of geting a fully educated worker. Of course there are immigrants who do not know any German and even did not try (or get a chance) to learn it. Mostly they are women from the first generation of immigrants. Generally they came a few years later than their husbands and never intended to work in Germany. Given their daily life, they simply dont see much profit from learning a more or less difficult language at their age. From their perspective (opposed to the perspective of a German university graduate) a not so stupid decission. >From the discussion I got the impression Anton (and Nestor at least in the case of Argentina) are favouring the idea of some compulsory language courses for immigrants. Let me say I oppose this for various reasons. The first one is just a practical one: I dont think you will make much progress in subject you are just forced to study, especially learning languages needs some sort of effort from the student if there should be any success. The second reason why I oppose compulsory language classes is political: In the present discussion in Germany 'language' just stands for 'integration' a term hated by most immigrants in Germany today. I will show in a seperate post, why 'integration' is the key bourgeois ideology in the field of immigration in Germany today. Johannes -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Mr. Proyect: Saying that trying to speak (or at least understand) the language of the country you live in is a part of progressive consciousness does not mean that everybody who speaks the language is a 'progressive' or even revolutionary person [all Africans have black hear but not all people with black hair are Africans]. At the same time not trying to learn such a language is not progressive even with people who on other accounts might be progressive (which by the way is not necessarily identical with being militant,or the other way round:being combative isnotnecessarily identical with being progressive in all respects. A person might be a very militant fighter against the boiss or any other oppressor and at the same time be very sexist for instance). What's so difficult about this? I sortof blame youz and your cothinkers for your lack of caoability to understand such a simple thing but I don't blame you for not answering the basic ideas explained in the paragraph quoted by you. It's obviously beyond your world view. Therefore I will stop discussion on this subject now since it doesn't lead anywhere. A.H. Louis Proyect schrieb: > Mr. Holberg: > >And something else: Marxists don't need to adore the working class (no > matter > >what nationality) for what it is (as a class in itself it is mainly > material for > >exploitation).Marxists look to the working class as it can be and as it > must be > >if it wants the liberate itself and by this mankind as a whole. Therefore > there > >is no need to defend every sort of narrowmindedness within the working > >class, and if people live in a foreign country for decades and don't hardly > >speak a single sentence in that country's language (Johannes: please don't > deny > >that there are people like that!) this is nothing to defend. It's simply > narrow > >minded and in fact reactionary. We should be Marxists, not liberal dogooders > >with a bad consciousness. We should tell it like it is. ] > > The only thing reactionary here is the notion that speaking the same > language is "progressive". The most combative section of the US working > class today are Latino janitors in Los Angeles and meat-packers in the > midwest, most of whom speak English either haltingly or not at all. > > > Louis Proyect > > The Marxism mailing-list: http://www.marxmail.org > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Tony, where do you get your information from about whom I know and what I do? Let me tell you that for many years I was particularily engaged in 'solidarity work' with the Kurdish movement and that I regularily met with immigrant workers from Kurdistan, Turkey, Iraq. Most of them tried to learn German as much as they could. Those who didn't were those with the smallest amount of political and social consciousness. Nowadays you got lots of second or even third generation Turks/Kurds who are very nationalist though it is obvious that they would not like to live in their respective countries. They try not to integrate because 'integration' for them means to be be only half accepted.They now talk about 'empowerment' first and try to stay away from Germans as much as they can. But they of course know German. Those who don't will of course be jobless and not going anywhere in life. Such an attitude is simply self defeating. Marxists should not encourage this even if they may come up with some psychological explaination.. A.H. Tony Abdo schrieb: > Anton, you are attributing narrow mindedness and being reactionary to > immigrants that haven't mastered learning German. Has it not > occurred to you why these immigrants might not have learned your > language? It is from fear, and nothing else. > > Immigrants fear being ridiculed as they try to master the skills > necessary in learning a new language. Some feel so ashamed and > fearful of being put down, that they just shut off from being engaged in > the process of learning the dominant language. They continually > avoid any interactions where there 'weakness' might be exposed. > > Isn't this a natural psychological process much different than being > reactionary or narrow minded? I suggest that you volunteer to > teach German language skills to some immigrants, and learn something > about the motivations for their behavior that you seem to disapprove so > strongly to. > > Tony > > within the working class, and if people live in a foreign country for > decades and don't hardly speak a single sentence in that country's > language (Johannes: please don't deny that there are people like that!) > this is nothing to defend. It's simply narrow minded and in fact > reactionary. We should be Marxists, not liberal dogooders with a bad > consciousness. We should tell it like it is.> > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Come on, you can't mean this question seriously. I never said that the immigrants shouldn't know their original language (infact even the German bourgeoisie makes them learn Turkish at school if they wish so. The idea of course is, that they should learn it so as that they can be sent back one fine day). I just said that they ought to learn the official lamguage of the country they live in. A conscious person even tries to learn some of the language of a country he only goes to for vacations. A.H. Olson schrieb: > > > > > > > within the working class, and if people live in a foreign country for > > decades and don't hardly speak a single sentence in that country's > > language (Johannes: please don't deny that there are people like that!) > > this is nothing to defend. It's simply narrow minded and in fact > > reactionary. We should be Marxists, not liberal dogooders with a bad > > consciousness. We should tell it like it is.> > > > So that would make the supression of the German language in the USA at the > time of World War 1 a progressive policy? > > Yours for Victory (Cabbage), > > Craig Olson > > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky schrieb: > En relación a Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?, > el 29 Aug 00, a las 12:51, Tony Abdo dijo: > > > Anton, you are attributing narrow mindedness and being reactionary to > > immigrants that haven't mastered learning German. Has it not > > occurred to you why these immigrants might not have learned your > > language? It is from fear, and nothing else. > > Well, that is very taxative, and probably too American. Fear may be a > component. But the basic question is "why does not the German > formation work in order to have these migrants learn German?". In > Argentina, European migrants were very proud that they did not speak > the same language that the unworthy locals, but the Argentine > formation took the pains to educate them into our own language, and > if not themselves their children were lucky not only to learn Spanish > but also to attain a higher level of education they would have ever > attained in Europe. There was an interest of the Argentinian ruling > classes to include those newcomers into the country. There does not > seem to exist such an interest among the German ruling classes today. > Perhaps that's why Anthony's proposition that Anton go and teach > German to migrants sounds so revolutionary. The truth is that the great majority of the immigrants here have succeeded in learning sufficient German. There are many institutions which offer German courses for foreigners (eg for 'Germans' who immigrate from the former Soviet Union). People I know who worked there as teachers told me that a certain number of these people proved that they were not really interested.As far as I know in Sweden learning the language is compulsory for immigrants. I think that this is fine. Apart from this: Do you have any ideas about the numbers of would be revolutionaries here in German, and more so about the numbers of those who have the skill to teach their language to maybe illiterate people? And do you really think that the kind of immigrants I have in mind would send their women to some German leftists to learn the language? You must be joking if you pretend that this is a way to solve the problem. Yes it is true that the immigrants are victims of the imperialist system (as is the majority of mankind). But the point for Marxists is not to refer to the working class primarily as victims but as the class which has the capability to overthrow capitalism. And this means that the shortcomings of the working class (and all other people, us included) must nort be hailed but overcome. The basis for overcoming it is to openly say that we are here dealing with self defeating shortcomings. A.H. > > Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
> > within the working class, and if people live in a foreign country for > decades and don't hardly speak a single sentence in that country's > language (Johannes: please don't deny that there are people like that!) > this is nothing to defend. It's simply narrow minded and in fact > reactionary. We should be Marxists, not liberal dogooders with a bad > consciousness. We should tell it like it is.> So that would make the supression of the German language in the USA at the time of World War 1 a progressive policy? Yours for Victory (Cabbage), Craig Olson ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
En relación a Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?, el 29 Aug 00, a las 12:51, Tony Abdo dijo: > Anton, you are attributing narrow mindedness and being reactionary to > immigrants that haven't mastered learning German. Has it not > occurred to you why these immigrants might not have learned your > language? It is from fear, and nothing else. Well, that is very taxative, and probably too American. Fear may be a component. But the basic question is "why does not the German formation work in order to have these migrants learn German?". In Argentina, European migrants were very proud that they did not speak the same language that the unworthy locals, but the Argentine formation took the pains to educate them into our own language, and if not themselves their children were lucky not only to learn Spanish but also to attain a higher level of education they would have ever attained in Europe. There was an interest of the Argentinian ruling classes to include those newcomers into the country. There does not seem to exist such an interest among the German ruling classes today. Perhaps that's why Anthony's proposition that Anton go and teach German to migrants sounds so revolutionary. Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
En relación a [L-I] Speaking the same language?, el 29 Aug 00, a las 13:26, Anton Holberg dijo: > there > is no need to defend every sort of narrowmindedness within the > working class, and if people live in a foreign country for decades > and don't hardly speak a single sentence in that country's language > this is nothing to defend. It's simply narrow minded and in fact > reactionary So that you put the burden on the victim! Let us now try a little bit of historic materialism... A Marxist should be asking her or himself why don't those people learn the local language, which would obviously be to their advantage. What are the mechanisms by which the social structure of Germany hems these people into a linguistic ghetto? THAT is a Marxist question. Ghettoization is a wonderful weapon for imperialist bourgeoisies, as Puerto Ricans in New York can testify. I insist, Anton, you may be (and most certainly are) a good willed man, but your cast of mind is exactly the opposite as that of a Marxist. Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Speaking the same language?
Anton, you are attributing narrow mindedness and being reactionary to immigrants that haven't mastered learning German. Has it not occurred to you why these immigrants might not have learned your language? It is from fear, and nothing else. Immigrants fear being ridiculed as they try to master the skills necessary in learning a new language. Some feel so ashamed and fearful of being put down, that they just shut off from being engaged in the process of learning the dominant language. They continually avoid any interactions where there 'weakness' might be exposed. Isn't this a natural psychological process much different than being reactionary or narrow minded? I suggest that you volunteer to teach German language skills to some immigrants, and learn something about the motivations for their behavior that you seem to disapprove so strongly to. Tony ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
