Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Hi, Am 19.07.2015 um 09:21 schrieb David Kastrup: That nobody ever bothered to do so in all those years is one indicator that there is not much overlap between people wanting to use LilyPond and people wanting to use Markdown. I am one of this (perhaps small) intersection between Markdown and LilyPond users. And I have written a Markdown extension to integrate ly snippets into markdown. On the other hand, this means I wrote this extension because I could not find anything existing. Joram ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
James Lowe p...@gnu.org writes: On 19/07/15 07:25, Federico Bruni wrote: Werner, I'm skipping your replies where you were implying that I was proposing to change the whole documentation system and not just the website. etc. OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS and using different web tools and fretting over things that have not yet happened; but sinply using the tools we have today and now. I am happy to start 'moving' things about within the texinfo code so that the website is 'better' organized in terms of it's presentation, and there were some nice suggestions in that tracker at first - but then it quickly descended (ascended?) into a but! but! then we could do X and then we could Y and then we could Z and then ..! and then..! og but I have no time effectively (for me) killing any chance of me contributing by suggesting tools and programmatical thingies that I have no skill in; but moving things from A to B and B to E in our telly and texi files, I can probably do. I'm pretty sure that we could get this organized in ways where people find what they are looking for better. I think that might be more friendly to our users. I don't think it is a deal breaker regarding whether people decide to use or not to use LilyPond, but making people find their way around fast makes them understand that LilyPond's core message is not suffering. Even though strife may be involved. We don't lose users by people looking at the web page and saying oh, if the web page looks so Y2K-like, I don't expect anything newer from the user interface. Because LilyPond's current user interface is more 1980ish rather than Y2K. If you even want to call it a user interface. Arguably, our web presentation contents are also due for an overhaul. The current standing and ongoing development of Frescobaldi means that we are not doing newcomers a favor by hiding it in footnotes. It's pretty much a part of how to get started with using LilyPond for the typical user. I'd wish that I could get somebody to get LilyPond's Emacs mode into this millennium but even then giving equal weight to Emacs and Frescobaldi would make no sense. People looking for an Emacs mode will hunt it down anyway. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 10:14, Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org ha scritto: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 9:40, James Lowe p...@gnu.org ha scritto: OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS and using different web tools and fretting over things that have not yet happened; but sinply using the tools we have today and now this requires changing texinfo and a bit of CSS: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-07/msg00051.html a slider of examples, instead of a long list (as the current examples page), would be nice but it requires more work on CSS And try to add text with some good keywords: https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3715 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-12/msg00373.html ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Jean-Charles Malahieude lily...@orange.fr writes: Le 19/07/2015 08:25, Federico Bruni a écrit : texi2html is deprecated since 2011. It's still present in most distributions but I guess that it won't be there forever. For example, in Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/Texi2htmlTransition https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01516.html There will be a pressing need to move to texi2any quite soon, otherwise LilyPond may be removed from the distro repository. I'll rise it again, since texinfo-6.0 has been released and I upgraded my Fedora (21, don't want 22 for now…), once the Translation branch will have been updated in French. I've an (over)full-time job, and try to keep the French part of docs up to date as well as try to help, but days last only 24 hours and I've no skill in programming (just trying to understand but often reach my limits) and don't want to break anything! HTML/CSS is not all that much programming proper I think. It's more of a declarative system. I think we should try getting as much of our Texinfo adaptations upstream as possible in the long run. That makes us less dependent on inside knowledge of retired contributors. If you are going to try getting texi2any into gear, I will match your contribution by trying to address the TeX macro programming issues that _still_ don't allow us to use an unchanged texinfo.tex from upstream. That's in almost there state, but unfortunately not completely yet. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Am 19.07.2015 um 07:26 schrieb Werner LEMBERG: As a preliminary I want to mention that in general I can imagine that we separate the top-level entry page of lilypond.org from the texinfo system. Somewhere we could have a `doc' subdirectory, and from there on everything is generated with texinfo as usual. That's what I would suggest. And you seem to see what Federico is after. Unfortunately many of your other comments adhere to that, expressing dissent where there shouldn't be any. I understand that having to learn two input languages is not optimal, but I don't think that it's a big problem. It is a big problem. Coherency of *all* documentation formats containing exactly the same data is one of the most important goals IMHO. Yes, but that goes only for the manuals. On the other hand I think that it's safe to assume that few people out there know texinfo and many more know markdown or HTML. If we care for contributors... Well, replacing texinfo with markdown *may* be possible, using pandoc as the engine to generate PDF and info. However, who is going to transform all of our data? Who is going to set up the build system? Etc., etc. The actual content of the website is not very much. It wouldn't even really hurt to rewrite that from scratch (although this is of course far from desirable). What tool for the website will be maintaining literally thousands of LilyPond code examples and the resulting images? And if we have people motivated to contribute to web-only documentation, what is supposed to happen to the PDF manuals and the Info manuals? I don't see any value in having the website in PDF or Info format Ouch. I almost exclusively look at the info page, and sometimes at the PDF, but hardly at the HTML pages. So you go to LilyPond - Manuals - Web and open Web.pdf - to find *what* in it? Seriously, I don't think there's significant need for that document. Actually I can't imagine experienced users or developers use anything in that except for navigating to the downloads or the manuals. Who is going to fix all the issues related to website generation and translation? Who is going to spend work on trying to understand something extremely complex which can be useful only within the LilyPond project? I would not be optimistic... But fixing those issues, if there is a *pressing need*, will be much, much simpler than converting everything to a new documentation system! Right now, it simply works. No, it doesn't simply work. There are many things about the website contents and even structure that should be discussed and improved. And the current state makes this quite improbable to happen. Working on the website is unnecessarily hard and off-putting because it is too much tied to the whole documentation system. I tried a very small contribution such as updating the screenshots of Denemo and Frescobaldi, but I was stuck and no one else did this apparently simple job: https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-extra/issues/20 Ah, I wasn't aware at all that there is another bug tracker for the web page. This is unfortunate. Please use the main bug tracker! No. This isn't a bug tracker for the website but an extra repository. Changing anything regarding media files on the website (I'm not sure about documentation right now) requires updating this repository, and therefore those who have push access to that repository have to take care of any contributions there. Urs ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19/07/15 07:25, Federico Bruni wrote: Werner, I'm skipping your replies where you were implying that I was proposing to change the whole documentation system and not just the website. etc. OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS and using different web tools and fretting over things that have not yet happened; but sinply using the tools we have today and now. I am happy to start 'moving' things about within the texinfo code so that the website is 'better' organized in terms of it's presentation, and there were some nice suggestions in that tracker at first - but then it quickly descended (ascended?) into a but! but! then we could do X and then we could Y and then we could Z and then ..! and then..! og but I have no time effectively (for me) killing any chance of me contributing by suggesting tools and programmatical thingies that I have no skill in; but moving things from A to B and B to E in our telly and texi files, I can probably do. James -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVq1R9AAoJEP8yVoKoS9i+6OAP/0s8+cTeXUk8nRo5KudUwWCL 2M26R2yL+pxgSuzrVS6aHcWv9O3TdA9l60TBb28fZYUp4psTmYss+RaXDLoWk/ft 9zKVnnZQNTt/S1orvzUfkHq4A94lUE7mbFDrcR6nyX4rk7Ak+piLXQpu/mmOxj0L LMqoa1njeGc2d4PYvxQMD16QzCtrTOAmPNM4R6H5QIycF8ae7MOGXBUpXvXefh6U 7YAQee1ixo1OnHfmYFPa1yTgpJa8dwrEuvcKNEwlZuj3zO0+i2ZeesIc5NN0I3UZ c7x0oxW6O+PxmXCL5xMHrYQsioYBpcNa3v4Gp0r9QGLA7PeLuEz3nufe3dc8mrc9 5Dze5tf8MO3v6wN7j9cfoo//DhGqibC/ott5Tic4QE0tjQ+vUr9Ijesgk5Pa2CtD i07in7cAZnHrawd6zu+B7zz6wrxB7ejPY8MFRTFy6ushw+GYzod/POty9f8w0qA9 WTS91Td1lLwRMoVdQrrJz5bo5P4q4oG9TuMcBWntxDsjwGsVi0rut0kN7gwQSxBQ xop4aX3o+cHPWY8m4mWfSA1XWNR/tJyOyJXz+Kq9nsbhrEcfcIeHOyVPWITY9lPY f3tETZnwWTGbPWOxPDZzQW2fSGGvf4q1YhQiyxIChTkY47xfIGcc7gyvGmOMhxp/ lbDSVxXijEIPq9Frj9r3 =N9gc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: As a preliminary I want to mention that in general I can imagine that we separate the top-level entry page of lilypond.org from the texinfo system. Somewhere we could have a `doc' subdirectory, and from there on everything is generated with texinfo as usual. I understand that having to learn two input languages is not optimal, but I don't think that it's a big problem. It is a big problem. Coherency of *all* documentation formats containing exactly the same data is one of the most important goals IMHO. On the other hand I think that it's safe to assume that few people out there know texinfo and many more know markdown or HTML. If we care for contributors... Well, replacing texinfo with markdown *may* be possible, using pandoc as the engine to generate PDF and info. Markdown has no way of integrating LilyPond images. And Texinfo is the GNU documentation format and LilyPond is a GNU application. I certainly would not object to somebody adding Markdown to the formats lilypond-book supports. That nobody ever bothered to do so in all those years is one indicator that there is not much overlap between people wanting to use LilyPond and people wanting to use Markdown. However, who is going to transform all of our data? Who is going to set up the build system? Etc., etc. And who is going to take over once all the original contributors have left? Texinfo is a well-documented and stable documentation format. It doesn't do much. For my own documents I prefer using LaTeX. But what I do with LaTeX is writing _documents_, tied to a certain output device. There is no good way of producing nice HTML from them, for example. and I'm pretty sure that at least 90% of lilypond users have the same opinion. People grown up with HTML only don't know how a good and efficient indexing system really works! You want us to deteriorate our documentation just for the sake of new, ignorant users? I think the idea is rather to split the documentation part into proper manuals that are kept in Texinfo and web pages that are the frontend of the web presence. Basically everything that is currently to be found in the (lilypond-web) info page and PDF and the various translations is supposed to go away and be replaced by something written in something else and maintained by somebody else. As I understand the proposal, none of the other documents would be targeted. Refusing any change because it's a change is not good for the LilyPond project. It brings only to stagnation. You are completely misinterpreting David. He doesn't refuse changes in general, but he reacts on weak points in your argumentation. And `let's do everything from scratch with a new tool' actually *is* weak argumentation :-) That was not actually the argument. The argument was that changing everything to a different tool would draw enough new and old contributors to the task that there would be a net benefit. Graham probably has a few choice words about the effectiveness of investing upfront work in the hope that stuff will become easy enough that even the weak of heart will get hooked. In the end, you cannot actually buy yourself anything from dozens of people saying I consider this a really excellent idea and it will likely cause lots more volunteers to work on this even though I myself cannot currently offer any time of my own. Volunteers don't materialize out of thin air. They are almost exclusively regulars with an axe to grind. And their own axe typically takes a solid bout of their time already. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: texi2html is deprecated since 2011. It's still present in most distributions but I guess that it won't be there forever. For example, in Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/Texi2htmlTransition https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01516.html There will be a pressing need to move to texi2any quite soon, otherwise LilyPond may be removed from the distro repository. LilyPond will be removed anyway because nobody can be bothered making it work with GUILEv2. At any rate, it is not an option to take all of the LilyPond manuals offline, and it is not an option to move everything from Texinfo to something else. So we'll need to solve the texi2any problem anyway, and adding completely different problems on top of that is not going to reduce the workload. The only stuff you can hope to avoid is style sheets and stuff _exclusively_ used by the lilypond-web part of the documentation. I don't think that's all that much you can hope to save working on. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 9:40, James Lowe p...@gnu.org ha scritto: OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS and using different web tools and fretting over things that have not yet happened; but sinply using the tools we have today and now this requires changing texinfo and a bit of CSS: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-07/msg00051.html a slider of examples, instead of a long list (as the current examples page), would be nice but it requires more work on CSS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Le 19/07/2015 08:25, Federico Bruni a écrit : […] 2. We still depend on texi2html and the help request by Jean-Charles, who tried moving to texi2any, not surprisingly was ignored: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-05/msg00032.html [Werner] The `non surprisingly' is polemic. As you certainly know, if noone answers on the mailing list, the request is not ignored, but nobody has time or knowledge to help – I really would love to help, but I also don't have time currently. Just imagine that all developers write I'm-so-sorry-e-mails for every request... I didn't mean to be polemic, I just wanted to highlight strongly that AFAICS we do not have active maintainers of the current tools. The first point I wrote above, which you think is irrelevant to the discussion, is relevant. texi2html is deprecated since 2011. It's still present in most distributions but I guess that it won't be there forever. For example, in Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/Texi2htmlTransition https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01516.html There will be a pressing need to move to texi2any quite soon, otherwise LilyPond may be removed from the distro repository. I'll rise it again, since texinfo-6.0 has been released and I upgraded my Fedora (21, don't want 22 for now…), once the Translation branch will have been updated in French. I've an (over)full-time job, and try to keep the French part of docs up to date as well as try to help, but days last only 24 hours and I've no skill in programming (just trying to understand but often reach my limits) and don't want to break anything! Cheers, Jean-Charles ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Joram joram.no...@gmx.de writes: Hi, Am 19.07.2015 um 09:21 schrieb David Kastrup: That nobody ever bothered to do so in all those years is one indicator that there is not much overlap between people wanting to use LilyPond and people wanting to use Markdown. I am one of this (perhaps small) intersection between Markdown and LilyPond users. And I have written a Markdown extension to integrate ly snippets into markdown. On the other hand, this means I wrote this extension because I could not find anything existing. Well, somebody needs to do it. Is this something we should try integrating with lilypond-book? One advantage of lilypond-book is that it is working with a snippet database so that code examples occuring repeatedly (quite frequent with translations) will only get compiled once. For the typical Markdown document this will not be much of an issue. For the LilyPond documentation, it definitely is. I don't know how many other similarly large-scale documents/collections with repeated fragments and regular need of compilation actually exist. Is your integration something that we should be advertising somewhere? I seem to remember that Henning similarly did some LilyPond integration into Context and don't think that this is general knowledge. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Federico, On 19/07/15 09:25, Federico Bruni wrote: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 10:14, Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org ha scritto: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 9:40, James Lowe p...@gnu.org ha scritto: OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS and using different web tools and fretting over things that have not yet happened; but sinply using the tools we have today and now this requires changing texinfo and a bit of CSS: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-07/msg00051.html a slider of examples, instead of a long list (as the current examples page), would be nice but it requires more work on CSS And try to add text with some good keywords: https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3715 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-12/msg00373.html You have just proved my point. I said: ... OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS ... I.e just content. Moving existing information about. Nothing more. If only to make the 'front page' more informative. I'd be happy to make a start on something while the rest of everyone else continues to talk 'futures'. Regards James -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVq2QAAAoJEP8yVoKoS9i+msMP/RPwOl6NhMwvLeJ2yZMLInIF w4hBjihXzVDodi4KhdHO21+zssqoz1+0vgjVr5BKW29uGY76Qm1n0TaezcLgWvR6 GCIlpasX5hXfhvdhX1ymd14ReYhmeTMMOrpRn0O91FFjZ8CxBwxEitZmstInFYUu elmPRGWHAgodpB1btjnILdPRw7bIE/ZJ7bLJQL2FcJ0IxE4wirWZ68wfs+fM7dOD E4p+/gF6YVkNkLZapjoDIX73P7zjhbfomcuSz/m0jAITYVrxDjP6zZwXfImkdkpl ZPMFs4IhCj1Nhd7K1AX3ulEqEnjfcqMWS2bTS8PYwWCBZmrG+eaYoR4ESjYOfyPK 2ARc/5YqhLKojMvQ0mFk4AVeGdzFbLn/OhS6etcRL00oQHkETKMNmIMW20E4VtzJ bCEMTn0sIMW+luAT1lqzaTSX1W8d40fsxeMnaTRakVKvl4Kx7qhW5IttbhHUBSO7 p2md7m9/Kn5+uc3azo2nfVudtUUWGbw6+eppWnqFW4CVKz9+GLS5VGA7ZrF35LCo M4PUJWmg3o/62DK+tDiACBmVdW+tYg2W8YXWVLu17kN6qk1jehFKTeXN3kKYYYxV luEPbELWSS4ej6Oed4LB5hCBs1ZCKZvWISiHvcyEI5zXus1/nsALfdNvQyCr+jnf ImnIhrY9hkPW3ev4Ul2m =dLO4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 10:46, James Lowe p...@gnu.org ha scritto: You have just proved my point. I said: ... OK so after all that, what can we do *today* to improve what the front page of the website looks like *now* without (for now) worrying about CSS ... I.e just content. Moving existing information about. Nothing more. If only to make the 'front page' more informative. I'd be happy to make a start on something while the rest of everyone else continues to talk 'futures'. Then I'm afraid that there's not much you can do. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 10:14, Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org ha scritto: a slider of examples, instead of a long list (as the current examples page), would be nice but it requires more work on CSS I just made a nice simple slider (few lines of CSS) by following this tutorial: http://demosthenes.info/blog/627/Make-A-Responsive-CSS3-Image-Slider But it uses features which require modern browsers, such as: http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css3_pr_animation-keyframes.asp so I guess that it's not an option ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 10:14, Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org ha scritto: a slider of examples, instead of a long list (as the current examples page), would be nice but it requires more work on CSS I just made a nice simple slider (few lines of CSS) by following this tutorial: http://demosthenes.info/blog/627/Make-A-Responsive-CSS3-Image-Slider But it uses features which require modern browsers, such as: http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css3_pr_animation-keyframes.asp so I guess that it's not an option If I understand correctly, one point of CSS should be graceful degradation: if your browser does not support something, the content will just get displayed like without the CSS. So I guess that not supported should likely end up less of a problem than non-standard support. Now I don't actually know what I am talking about. If I had a dollar any time an educated guess of mine about how things should be working if implemented sanely was appallingly wrong, I'd not be having monetary problems. But it's probably not something we should discard out of hand. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Werner, I'm skipping your replies where you were implying that I was proposing to change the whole documentation system and not just the website. Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 7:26, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org ha scritto: 1. All the persons who built the lilypond build system left the project. Correct me if I'm wrong. While probably correct, it is irrelevant to the discussion. Who is going to fix all the issues related to website generation and translation? Who is going to spend work on trying to understand something extremely complex which can be useful only within the LilyPond project? I would not be optimistic... But fixing those issues, if there is a *pressing need*, will be much, much simpler than converting everything to a new documentation system! Right now, it simply works. 2. We still depend on texi2html and the help request by Jean-Charles, who tried moving to texi2any, not surprisingly was ignored: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-05/msg00032.html The `non surprisingly' is polemic. As you certainly know, if noone answers on the mailing list, the request is not ignored, but nobody has time or knowledge to help – I really would love to help, but I also don't have time currently. Just imagine that all developers write I'm-so-sorry-e-mails for every request... I didn't mean to be polemic, I just wanted to highlight strongly that AFAICS we do not have active maintainers of the current tools. The first point I wrote above, which you think is irrelevant to the discussion, is relevant. texi2html is deprecated since 2011. It's still present in most distributions but I guess that it won't be there forever. For example, in Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/Texi2htmlTransition https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01516.html There will be a pressing need to move to texi2any quite soon, otherwise LilyPond may be removed from the distro repository. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 0:58, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org ha scritto: But it *is* a problem that changing anything on the website is such an involved process - both in terms of the used infrastructure *and* in terms of the review process. This *is* scaring away people who would be able to support the project with their work and creativity. I will only comment on a very small number of things below, but in general I would say that it shouldn't be ruled out a priori to separate the documentation from the website. The website is a kind of showcase and a place for general information, and it's a place for advertising. It would be good if that could be developed in a more fluid way to react to trends more accurately. And it might be useful to keep that part more modern and thus appealing, even if it means doing significant changes in technology every once in a while. Thanks Urs, this is exactly the message I was trying to communicate in this thread. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Quoting myself, tool for the website only seems pretty clear: Not at all. The `website' is *everything* addressed by lilypond.org. You are talking about the top-level page only, I now suppose. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
There will be a pressing need to move to texi2any quite soon, otherwise LilyPond may be removed from the distro repository. Well, having guile 2.0 is *far* more important! And only David is working on this... Here, I not only have no time, but I also don't have any knowledge :-( Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 11:44, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: If I understand correctly, one point of CSS should be graceful degradation: if your browser does not support something, the content will just get displayed like without the CSS. The graceful degradation would require some external javascript library like jquery... I don't have old browsers to test how it would look like.. This is an example: http://codepen.io/antoniskamamis/pen/hjBrE ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 11:44, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: If I understand correctly, one point of CSS should be graceful degradation: if your browser does not support something, the content will just get displayed like without the CSS. The graceful degradation would require some external javascript library like jquery... Seriously? That would be another unexpected dollar in my can standard committee engineers really be that stupid account. I really hope you are wrong about that, but as I said: if I had a dollar every time I overestimated the common sense of standard creators... I don't have old browsers to test how it would look like.. This is an example: http://codepen.io/antoniskamamis/pen/hjBrE If JavaScript is required to get predictable behavior on unknown CSS constructs, that does not sound like a good idea. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 14:02, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: I was talking about use CSS3 features as long as the behavior when those are not supported still makes sense. it wouldn't make sense I guess that you would see just the first image of the slider, there would be no transition to the next image ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 12:43, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: The graceful degradation would require some external javascript library like jquery... Seriously? That would be another unexpected dollar in my can standard committee engineers really be that stupid account. I really hope you are wrong about that, but as I said: if I had a dollar every time I overestimated the common sense of standard creators... It's not as you see it. AFAIK, if you want to make a slider you need either CSS3 animations or a javascript library. CSS2 does not have animations. It's not engineers' fault, it's just a new feature that old browsers do not support natively. The options are: 1. Use CSS3 animations and prompt users with old browsers to upgrade to a new one (I know that it's not accepted here). 2. Use an external javascript library (I know that it's not accepted here). 3. Forget the slider and list the examples in the home page just like they are on the current example page. 4. Other? I guess that James can do option 3, if there's consensus on this change. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Hi David, Am 19.07.2015 um 10:37 schrieb David Kastrup: Is this something we should try integrating with lilypond-book? I basically tried to reproduce lilypond-book on markdown for my purposes. So before the usual md - html conversion is done, the ly snippet is compiled by lilypond and replaced by the image (svg) on the fly. The image name is a hash on the content and no recompilation is done if this hash is unchanged to save the compilation time. More features of lilypond book (e.g. options) are not yet done. To be more precise it is an extension to the python markdown module. So it can be used everywhere, the python markdown module is used to get html from md. lilypond-book is a conversion: html/latex/... with lilypond parts - pure html/latex/... with images, right? So markdown could be added to the input formats while keeping html as the output format in that case. I'll have to look into lilypond-book how/if that is possible. Is your integration something that we should be advertising somewhere? I would like to get it into a better shape before showing it to a wider public. And I first have to extract it from other private code. I'll come back to this list when I reached that stage. Not in the next weeks though. I seem to remember that Henning similarly did some LilyPond integration into Context and don't think that this is general knowledge. This means compared to lilypond-book, one only has to compile it once with context and not in two steps? That sounds interesting. Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 12:43, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: The graceful degradation would require some external javascript library like jquery... Seriously? That would be another unexpected dollar in my can standard committee engineers really be that stupid account. I really hope you are wrong about that, but as I said: if I had a dollar every time I overestimated the common sense of standard creators... It's not as you see it. AFAIK, if you want to make a slider you need either CSS3 animations or a javascript library. CSS2 does not have animations. It's not engineers' fault, it's just a new feature that old browsers do not support natively. I am not talking about CSS2 having to do animations. I am talking about just displaying the content without interpreting the parts of CSS it does not understand. The options are: 1. Use CSS3 animations and prompt users with old browsers to upgrade to a new one (I know that it's not accepted here). I was talking about use CSS3 features as long as the behavior when those are not supported still makes sense. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Joram joram.no...@gmx.de writes: Am 19.07.2015 um 10:37 schrieb David Kastrup: I seem to remember that Henning similarly did some LilyPond integration into Context and don't think that this is general knowledge. This means compared to lilypond-book, one only has to compile it once with context and not in two steps? That sounds interesting. I'm pretty sure that was the case. I'd not gotten around yet to doing this for LaTeX. For Texinfo, it might be hard to implement this on anything other than the TeX backend. But for LaTeX, basically LaTeX just needs to skip over LilyPond environments and reinterpret them as glorified \includegraphics statements, with lilypond-book doing the preparation of the graphics. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 14:02, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: I was talking about use CSS3 features as long as the behavior when those are not supported still makes sense. it wouldn't make sense I guess that you would see just the first image of the slider, there would be no transition to the next image So with slider you don't mean some user control but rather an automated change of images? Wouldn't an animated GIF or MNG file provide that? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 16:22, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: Tell you what: I'm probably the Nineties user. That GIF annoys me because it does not allow me to look at stuff as long as I need. I'd probably have a similar problem with a Slider (which presumably adds animation to the image flipping). A slow conveyor-belt like appearance would likely annoy me less (basically having _only_ animation) but it still does not beat a statical page for me where _I_ am doing the scrolling and determining the flow of presentation. Tell you what: I hate animated GIF. I understand that it annoys you.. We may put a link to the examples page just besides/below it. The best sliders are those that stop sliding when you hover the image and also have buttons to go next/prev. Ardour site has the latter: http://ardour.org/ Anyway, better an animated GIF than nothing ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 14:31, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 14:02, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: I was talking about use CSS3 features as long as the behavior when those are not supported still makes sense. it wouldn't make sense I guess that you would see just the first image of the slider, there would be no transition to the next image So with slider you don't mean some user control but rather an automated change of images? Wouldn't an animated GIF or MNG file provide that? Yes, images that slide one after another, as in the example I linked before. I read that MNG is not supported by IE, Opera and Safari. Perhaps animated GIF could be a way to achieve something similar. Find attached an example, generated with: convert -delay 400 -page 800x360 -loop 0 *.png slider.gif on some examples I had previously resized to maximum 800 px width. We found the Nineties solution :-) James, if you do the texinfo stuff I can create the GIF file of all the examples required. Tell you what: I'm probably the Nineties user. That GIF annoys me because it does not allow me to look at stuff as long as I need. I'd probably have a similar problem with a Slider (which presumably adds animation to the image flipping). A slow conveyor-belt like appearance would likely annoy me less (basically having _only_ animation) but it still does not beat a statical page for me where _I_ am doing the scrolling and determining the flow of presentation. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 16:22, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: Tell you what: I'm probably the Nineties user. That GIF annoys me because it does not allow me to look at stuff as long as I need. I'd probably have a similar problem with a Slider (which presumably adds animation to the image flipping). A slow conveyor-belt like appearance would likely annoy me less (basically having _only_ animation) but it still does not beat a statical page for me where _I_ am doing the scrolling and determining the flow of presentation. Tell you what: I hate animated GIF. I understand that it annoys you.. We may put a link to the examples page just besides/below it. The best sliders are those that stop sliding when you hover the image and also have buttons to go next/prev. Ardour site has the latter: http://ardour.org/ Anyway, better an animated GIF than nothing We can just display a small gallery. You can click to show the respective image in a frame, and if JavaScript is available, this can be done on hovering over the thumb. That leaves the control with the user and will not be useless even without JavaScript. Wait, was JavaScript even necessary for mouse-hover action or was this already in CSS? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 16:42, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: We can just display a small gallery. You can click to show the respective image in a frame, and if JavaScript is available, this can be done on hovering over the thumb. That leaves the control with the user and will not be useless even without JavaScript. Wait, was JavaScript even necessary for mouse-hover action or was this already in C No need of javascript for mouse hover action. Do you mean a compact list of small thumbnails? I'd suggest two images per 6 rows (we currently have 12 examples). ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Am 2015-07-19 um 17:36 schrieb Joram joram.no...@gmx.de: I seem to remember that Henning similarly did some LilyPond integration into Context and don't think that this is general knowledge. This means compared to lilypond-book, one only has to compile it once with context and not in two steps? That sounds interesting. Yes, it’s not using lilypond-book, but calls LilyPond within the TeX run - as needed, i.e. the „compiled pictures“ are kept and their source code checked against an md5 checksum (as long as the order of your snippets didn’t change or you did name them). Again, see http://wiki.contextgarden.net/LilyPond I should update the example to LilyPond 2.18. „Once“ depends on the product (references, ToC etc.) - ConTeXt cares for the several runs that LaTeX might need. Greetlings, Hraban --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Am 2015-07-19 um 14:37 schrieb David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: I seem to remember that Henning similarly did some LilyPond integration into Context and don't think that this is general knowledge. Probably not, but ConTeXt at all is not really general knowledge ;) But users who manage the learning curve of LilyPond, I would suppose to also manage to learn ConTeXt - not that it’s as difficult, but because you need to find your way through the documentation that is, ehm, not quite as well structured as LilyPond’s. But if you’re not content with LaTeX’s layout classes, then ConTeXt is the way to go IMO - better define everything from scratch than tweak the code of others. Anyway, my „integration“ is not much more than a setup for a general „filter“ module by one of our wizards, Aditya, that can be used to call arbitrary tools for inline processing. see wiki.contextgarden.net/LilyPond Greetlings, Hraban --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
On Jul 19, 2015, at 4:14 AM, Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org wrote: a slider of examples, instead of a long list (as the current examples page), would be nice but it requires more work on CSS It’s worth mentioning that there are a lot of web designers who think that sliders / carousels are not a good idea. Apparently content in them is usually ignored according to user research. Search the web for more on this, or see for example: http://shouldiuseacarousel.com/ Anyway, I like the idea of a simple list as on the current examples page, at least as a first step. Also +1 for raising the profile of Frescobaldi on the website. Would help new users get started. Unfortunately my time constraints are pretty bad for the foreseeable future (plus tendonitis in my wrist), so I likely won’t be able to help with this in the short term. -Paul ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno sab 11 lug 2015 alle 9:28, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org ha scritto: These are all good ideas and suggestions. Now we need someone to give it a try. I won't be able to do anythong about ut unfortunately. Unfortunately I'm scared away by texinfo, texi2html, the build system, etc. I wish we could use a modern tool for the website (there are nice static website generators around.. I've recently started testing cactus¹). I'm pretty sure that other people might be more motivated to contribute if we changed the tool for the website only. I have the bad feeling that the issues marked with label website will remain open forever: https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=2q=label%3Awebsitecolspec=ID+Type+Status+Stars+Owner+Patch+Needs+Summaryx=typecells=tiles ¹ https://github.com/koenbok/Cactus ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno sab 18 lug 2015 alle 20:42, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno sab 11 lug 2015 alle 9:28, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org ha scritto: These are all good ideas and suggestions. Now we need someone to give it a try. I won't be able to do anythong about ut unfortunately. Unfortunately I'm scared away by texinfo, texi2html, the build system, etc. I wish we could use a modern tool for the website (there are nice static website generators around.. I've recently started testing cactus¹). I'm pretty sure that other people might be more motivated to contribute if we changed the tool for the website only. We use the same input language for the website as for the rest of the documentation. As a consequence, our website and main documentation are maintained and kept up-to-date with respect to one another, and one can search any website material in Emacs' info browser. I understand that having to learn two input languages is not optimal, but I don't think that it's a big problem. On the other hand I think that it's safe to assume that few people out there know texinfo and many more know markdown or HTML. If we care for contributors... If we care for contributors, we better not fall apart into even more technologies and tools than we currently do. What tool for the website will be maintaining literally thousands of LilyPond code examples and the resulting images? And if we have people motivated to contribute to web-only documentation, what is supposed to happen to the PDF manuals and the Info manuals? I don't see any value in having the website in PDF or Info format and I'm pretty sure that at least 90% of lilypond users have the same opinion. So let's remove all the manuals from the website because 90% of LilyPond users rather want to have something written up ad-hoc by some website maintainer. Then remove all the websites in the dozen languages that we provide and let all of the translators learn to work with the new website creation framework in addition to translating the manuals. We have an abundance of translators so half of them can focus on translating the web material, and the other half on the manuals. Assuming we even want to put the manuals online in HTML. And our web pages currently render perfectly well on pretty much every browser (including text browsers). Many content creation tools don't render convincingly on less common browsers or screen resolutions. Current website is not mobile friendly and this is not good for SEO: https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/6196932?hl=en Search Engine Optimization is for pushing yourself in front of competitors providing the same kind of standard service or software. That's totally a non-issue for LilyPond. mobile friendly would be more of an issue in case people like to get relevant information about LilyPond on mobile devices. Now in what respect visible to humans (rather than to SEO) is LilyPond's web presence not mobile friendly? If there are actual shortcomings rather than the placation of web crawler criteria involved, addressing them makes sense of course. But completely dropping everything that we currently have working in favor of something that no active contributor uses in the hope of magically making more contributors appear is not likely to help. The tools I'm thinking of use Bootstrap, which is responsive and mobile first: http://getbootstrap.com/ But we don't want mobile first since LilyPond works with chunks of information regarding its input and output that are not primarily suited to the comparatively small screens of mobile devices. So the main work environment for doing more than cursory information hunting and gathering will not be a mobile one. I see a totally different reality, but I might be wrong. Let me list some points: 1. All the persons who built the lilypond build system left the project. Correct me if I'm wrong. More LilyPond contributors are working with the LiilyPond build system than would be working on whatever you want to replace parts of it with for the sake of the web pages. Correct me if I'm wrong. Who is going to fix all the issues related to website generation and translation? Well, how is _your_ tool magically going to crank out translations of the web page into 10 languages or so? Because that is what we currently have. Translators do not need to learn anything different for manuals or web pages. And how is your tool going to embed images created from LilyPond source code? Who is going to write up things like URL:http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/changes/index.html currently written by the programmers along with the rest of their code, and translated by the translators along with the rest of the material? Who is going to spend work on trying to understand something extremely complex which can be useful only within
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno sab 18 lug 2015 alle 20:42, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno sab 11 lug 2015 alle 9:28, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org ha scritto: These are all good ideas and suggestions. Now we need someone to give it a try. I won't be able to do anythong about ut unfortunately. Unfortunately I'm scared away by texinfo, texi2html, the build system, etc. I wish we could use a modern tool for the website (there are nice static website generators around.. I've recently started testing cactus¹). I'm pretty sure that other people might be more motivated to contribute if we changed the tool for the website only. We use the same input language for the website as for the rest of the documentation. As a consequence, our website and main documentation are maintained and kept up-to-date with respect to one another, and one can search any website material in Emacs' info browser. I understand that having to learn two input languages is not optimal, but I don't think that it's a big problem. On the other hand I think that it's safe to assume that few people out there know texinfo and many more know markdown or HTML. If we care for contributors... What tool for the website will be maintaining literally thousands of LilyPond code examples and the resulting images? And if we have people motivated to contribute to web-only documentation, what is supposed to happen to the PDF manuals and the Info manuals? I don't see any value in having the website in PDF or Info format and I'm pretty sure that at least 90% of lilypond users have the same opinion. And our web pages currently render perfectly well on pretty much every browser (including text browsers). Many content creation tools don't render convincingly on less common browsers or screen resolutions. Current website is not mobile friendly and this is not good for SEO: https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/6196932?hl=en The tools I'm thinking of use Bootstrap, which is responsive and mobile first: http://getbootstrap.com/ I don't really see that we have much to gain by forking part of our documentation off into different incompatible technology. I have the bad feeling that the issues marked with label website will remain open forever: https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=2q=label%3Awebsitecolspec=ID+Type+Status+Stars+Owner+Patch+Needs+Summaryx=typecells=tiles You won't get them magically closed by moving to another tool, and we'll get a lot of new ones, to boot. And when the people excited about hacking up a website on some new tool will become unexcited and eventually go away, there will be nobody who can pitch in without learning yet another tool. I see a totally different reality, but I might be wrong. Let me list some points: 1. All the persons who built the lilypond build system left the project. Correct me if I'm wrong. Who is going to fix all the issues related to website generation and translation? Who is going to spend work on trying to understand something extremely complex which can be useful only within the LilyPond project? I would not be optimistic... 2. We still depend on texi2html and the help request by Jean-Charles, who tried moving to texi2any, not surprisingly was ignored: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-05/msg00032.html 3. Some recent contributions to the website failed. The most important I can remember is the one by Urs. I'd be glad if he could share his thoughts on this matter. I tried a very small contribution such as updating the screenshots of Denemo and Frescobaldi, but I was stuck and no one else did this apparently simple job: https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-extra/issues/20 The website home page should be the easiest thing to update. Let's see who will volunteer for this. Refusing any change because it's a change is not good for the LilyPond project. It brings only to stagnation. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno sab 11 lug 2015 alle 9:28, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org ha scritto: These are all good ideas and suggestions. Now we need someone to give it a try. I won't be able to do anythong about ut unfortunately. Unfortunately I'm scared away by texinfo, texi2html, the build system, etc. I wish we could use a modern tool for the website (there are nice static website generators around.. I've recently started testing cactus¹). I'm pretty sure that other people might be more motivated to contribute if we changed the tool for the website only. We use the same input language for the website as for the rest of the documentation. As a consequence, our website and main documentation are maintained and kept up-to-date with respect to one another, and one can search any website material in Emacs' info browser. What tool for the website will be maintaining literally thousands of LilyPond code examples and the resulting images? And if we have people motivated to contribute to web-only documentation, what is supposed to happen to the PDF manuals and the Info manuals? And our web pages currently render perfectly well on pretty much every browser (including text browsers). Many content creation tools don't render convincingly on less common browsers or screen resolutions. I don't really see that we have much to gain by forking part of our documentation off into different incompatible technology. I have the bad feeling that the issues marked with label website will remain open forever: https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=2q=label%3Awebsitecolspec=ID+Type+Status+Stars+Owner+Patch+Needs+Summaryx=typecells=tiles You won't get them magically closed by moving to another tool, and we'll get a lot of new ones, to boot. And when the people excited about hacking up a website on some new tool will become unexcited and eventually go away, there will be nobody who can pitch in without learning yet another tool. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
As a preliminary I want to mention that in general I can imagine that we separate the top-level entry page of lilypond.org from the texinfo system. Somewhere we could have a `doc' subdirectory, and from there on everything is generated with texinfo as usual. I understand that having to learn two input languages is not optimal, but I don't think that it's a big problem. It is a big problem. Coherency of *all* documentation formats containing exactly the same data is one of the most important goals IMHO. On the other hand I think that it's safe to assume that few people out there know texinfo and many more know markdown or HTML. If we care for contributors... Well, replacing texinfo with markdown *may* be possible, using pandoc as the engine to generate PDF and info. However, who is going to transform all of our data? Who is going to set up the build system? Etc., etc. What tool for the website will be maintaining literally thousands of LilyPond code examples and the resulting images? And if we have people motivated to contribute to web-only documentation, what is supposed to happen to the PDF manuals and the Info manuals? I don't see any value in having the website in PDF or Info format Ouch. I almost exclusively look at the info page, and sometimes at the PDF, but hardly at the HTML pages. and I'm pretty sure that at least 90% of lilypond users have the same opinion. People grown up with HTML only don't know how a good and efficient indexing system really works! You want us to deteriorate our documentation just for the sake of new, ignorant users? Current website is not mobile friendly and this is not good for SEO: https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/6196932?hl=en I guess you are talking about the top-level page of lilypond.org, right? If I applied your sentence to the whole documentation, this would be a rather silly argument. 1. All the persons who built the lilypond build system left the project. Correct me if I'm wrong. While probably correct, it is irrelevant to the discussion. Who is going to fix all the issues related to website generation and translation? Who is going to spend work on trying to understand something extremely complex which can be useful only within the LilyPond project? I would not be optimistic... But fixing those issues, if there is a *pressing need*, will be much, much simpler than converting everything to a new documentation system! Right now, it simply works. 2. We still depend on texi2html and the help request by Jean-Charles, who tried moving to texi2any, not surprisingly was ignored: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2015-05/msg00032.html The `non surprisingly' is polemic. As you certainly know, if noone answers on the mailing list, the request is not ignored, but nobody has time or knowledge to help – I really would love to help, but I also don't have time currently. Just imagine that all developers write I'm-so-sorry-e-mails for every request... I tried a very small contribution such as updating the screenshots of Denemo and Frescobaldi, but I was stuck and no one else did this apparently simple job: https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-extra/issues/20 Ah, I wasn't aware at all that there is another bug tracker for the web page. This is unfortunate. Please use the main bug tracker! Refusing any change because it's a change is not good for the LilyPond project. It brings only to stagnation. You are completely misinterpreting David. He doesn't refuse changes in general, but he reacts on weak points in your argumentation. And `let's do everything from scratch with a new tool' actually *is* weak argumentation :-) Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno dom 19 lug 2015 alle 7:33, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org ha scritto: Federico suggests that *the website* doesn't have to be available in PDF or info format. He doesn't speak of manuals. This fine distinction was definitely not obvious in his first e-mail. Really? Quoting myself, tool for the website only seems pretty clear: Il giorno sab 18 lug 2015 alle 20:04, Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org ha scritto: I wish we could use a modern tool for the website (there are nice static website generators around.. I've recently started testing cactus¹). I'm pretty sure that other people might be more motivated to contribute if we changed the tool for the website only. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
But the website doesn't have to be available as PDF or as info documents if the manuals are. So I don't see anything speaking against having a website that is developed using arbitrary technologies that may even change every two years and having the manuals in their traditional infrastructure and appearance, located at their proper places inside or attached to the website. Yes, the top-level page of lilypond.org might be maintained separately without affecting the documentation of lilypond itself. I have to disagree here. The documentation inherently has to be maintained by the developers but the website doesn't. Mhmm. We have to exactly define what the `website' is. Otherwise I fear that we soon have people who try to add documentation to the website... Federico suggests that *the website* doesn't have to be available in PDF or info format. He doesn't speak of manuals. This fine distinction was definitely not obvious in his first e-mail. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
I'm afraid David is right with many things here, although I'd prefer him being more moderated in his tone. Federico is laying his finger on an obviously problematic issue, and he's actively thinking about possible solutions. Maybe his ideas aren't going to work out for inherent problems, maybe not simply because he might not be persuasive enough. Anyway I don't see a reason or even a justification to be so harsh. I agree that changing *anything* in our system to build documentation and website is a huge undertaking, and it may be an all-or-nothing issue with enormous implications. And I can agree to some extent that it may even be the right way for LilyPond to be old-fashioned or conservative in such things. It is not enough to think about standard conforming technologies but they have to be able to be used by a vast majority of browsers/readers, and they should think in terms of decades. But it *is* a problem that changing anything on the website is such an involved process - both in terms of the used infrastructure *and* in terms of the review process. This *is* scaring away people who would be able to support the project with their work and creativity. I will only comment on a very small number of things below, but in general I would say that it shouldn't be ruled out a priori to separate the documentation from the website. The website is a kind of showcase and a place for general information, and it's a place for advertising. It would be good if that could be developed in a more fluid way to react to trends more accurately. And it might be useful to keep that part more modern and thus appealing, even if it means doing significant changes in technology every once in a while. On the other hand we have the manuals which are inherently complex and much less open to changes. And they are very much tied to actual development, that's right. But the website doesn't have to be available as PDF or as info documents if the manuals are. So I don't see anything speaking against having a website that is developed using arbitrary technologies that may even change every two years and having the manuals in their traditional infrastructure and appearance, located at their proper places inside or attached to the website. In fact the current construct has some striking glitches that are confusing for developers and visitors alike and that are due to the fact that the website is maintained as part of the documentation. Just one example: Why on earth can you access a (fuzzy) copy of the website as part of the documentation? Just compare http://lilypond.org to http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/web/index.html and the respective paths in the build directory. Am 18.07.2015 um 23:35 schrieb David Kastrup: Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno sab 18 lug 2015 alle 20:42, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org ha scritto: Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org writes: Il giorno sab 11 lug 2015 alle 9:28, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org ha scritto: These are all good ideas and suggestions. Now we need someone to give it a try. I won't be able to do anythong about ut unfortunately. Unfortunately I'm scared away by texinfo, texi2html, the build system, etc. I wish we could use a modern tool for the website (there are nice static website generators around.. I've recently started testing cactus¹). I'm pretty sure that other people might be more motivated to contribute if we changed the tool for the website only. We use the same input language for the website as for the rest of the documentation. As a consequence, our website and main documentation are maintained and kept up-to-date with respect to one another, and one can search any website material in Emacs' info browser. I understand that having to learn two input languages is not optimal, but I don't think that it's a big problem. On the other hand I think that it's safe to assume that few people out there know texinfo and many more know markdown or HTML. If we care for contributors... If we care for contributors, we better not fall apart into even more technologies and tools than we currently do. I have to disagree here. The documentation inherently has to be maintained by the developers but the website doesn't. The website actually can be edited by people without having any technical knowledge about LilyPond. And if website and documentation were separated this wouldn't be an issue but would allow an unknown number of people to consider contributing to the website. What tool for the website will be maintaining literally thousands of LilyPond code examples and the resulting images? And if we have people motivated to contribute to web-only documentation, what is supposed to happen to the PDF manuals and the Info manuals? I don't see any value in having the website in PDF or Info format and I'm pretty sure that at least 90% of lilypond users have the same opinion. So let's remove all the manuals from the website because
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Hi, I don't really like to join the discussion, because a) I don't like to tone and b) I don't have time to work on changes or even proposals. But I'd like to second the general idea by Federico. A website creation less carved in stone and with easier maintainability is something to aim at. Any such suggestions should not be flatly refused. Quite the contrary, changes w.r.t. the website are desperately needed in my opinion and any constructive discussion about that should be allowed and supported. Of course there are many things to consider and of course this has many constraints. But we should not stop here. A separation of manuals and website seems like a sensible thing to me as these are also logically different things (as mentioned: pdf or not, connected with and related to code and versions etc.). And of course the experience of long term ly developers is helpful to tell ideas that won't work from good ones. So please, be friendly and bring together new ideas (innovation) and experience with proven and reliable workflows. It's not easy and quickly done, but imho it's worth the efforts. Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Il giorno ven 10 lug 2015 alle 20:49, Paul Morris p...@paulwmorris.com ha scritto: My thinking is that it would be good to move some or all of the examples page[1] to the main column of the home page where the news is now. That clearly shows what LilyPond can do, front and center. I agree! I would make a carousel of all the examples. It can be done without javascript. For example: https://github.com/benschwarz/gallery-css/ To me the full news listing seems less important to feature so prominently on the home page, so one idea would be for the news list to become a list of headlines in the home page side bar (possibly made wider) with each headline linking to that news entry on a separate news page. That separate news page could just be a slightly revised version of the current old news page[2] (i.e. just call it “News”). I add one more reason to move the news elsewhere: most of translated websites do not translate the news and an homepage with mixed content of english and another language doesn't sound too good. Currently the news are the main content of the homepage. If we use a side bar with headlines it's better. IMO the main content of the home page should be images with examples and few slogan sentences. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Am 11. Juli 2015 09:23:44 MESZ, schrieb Federico Bruni f...@inventati.org: Il giorno ven 10 lug 2015 alle 20:49, Paul Morris p...@paulwmorris.com ha scritto: My thinking is that it would be good to move some or all of the examples page[1] to the main column of the home page where the news is now. That clearly shows what LilyPond can do, front and center. I agree! I would make a carousel of all the examples. It can be done without javascript. For example: https://github.com/benschwarz/gallery-css/ To me the full news listing seems less important to feature so prominently on the home page, so one idea would be for the news list to become a list of headlines in the home page side bar (possibly made wider) with each headline linking to that news entry on a separate news page. That separate news page could just be a slightly revised version of the current old news page[2] (i.e. just call it “News”). I add one more reason to move the news elsewhere: most of translated websites do not translate the news and an homepage with mixed content of english and another language doesn't sound too good. Currently the news are the main content of the homepage. If we use a side bar with headlines it's better. IMO the main content of the home page should be images with examples and few slogan sentences. These are all good ideas and suggestions. Now we need someone to give it a try. I won't be able to do anythong about ut unfortunately. Urs ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:39 AM, James p...@gnu.org wrote: Perhaps we can tweak the 'website' slightly (i.e. make small changes to the TexInfo code) to perhaps do something like moving some/all of the text from here http://lilypond.org/introduction.html to the front page/news and jig the menu (?) links around to fit? My thinking is that it would be good to move some or all of the examples page[1] to the main column of the home page where the news is now. That clearly shows what LilyPond can do, front and center. To me the full news listing seems less important to feature so prominently on the home page, so one idea would be for the news list to become a list of headlines in the home page side bar (possibly made wider) with each headline linking to that news entry on a separate news page. That separate news page could just be a slightly revised version of the current old news page[2] (i.e. just call it “News”). -Paul [1] http://lilypond.org/examples.html [2] http://lilypond.org/old-news.html ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Am 10.07.2015 um 20:49 schrieb Paul Morris: On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:39 AM, James p...@gnu.org wrote: Perhaps we can tweak the 'website' slightly (i.e. make small changes to the TexInfo code) to perhaps do something like moving some/all of the text from here http://lilypond.org/introduction.html to the front page/news and jig the menu (?) links around to fit? My thinking is that it would be good to move some or all of the examples page[1] to the main column of the home page where the news is now. That clearly shows what LilyPond can do, front and center. +1 Marc To me the full news listing seems less important to feature so prominently on the home page, so one idea would be for the news list to become a list of headlines in the home page side bar (possibly made wider) with each headline linking to that news entry on a separate news page. That separate news page could just be a slightly revised version of the current old news page[2] (i.e. just call it “News”). -Paul [1] http://lilypond.org/examples.html [2] http://lilypond.org/old-news.html ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Paul, et al, On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Paul Morris [via Lilypond] ml-node+s1069038n178576...@n5.nabble.com wrote: On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:39 AM, James [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=178576i=0 wrote: Perhaps we can tweak the 'website' slightly (i.e. make small changes to the TexInfo code) to perhaps do something like moving some/all of the text from here http://lilypond.org/introduction.html to the front page/news and jig the menu (?) links around to fit? My thinking is that it would be good to move some or all of the examples page[1] to the main column of the home page where the news is now. That clearly shows what LilyPond can do, front and center. To me the full news listing seems less important to feature so prominently on the home page, so one idea would be for the news list to become a list of headlines in the home page side bar (possibly made wider) with each headline linking to that news entry on a separate news page. That separate news page could just be a slightly revised version of the current old news page[2] (i.e. just call it “News”). -Paul [1] http://lilypond.org/examples.html [2] http://lilypond.org/old-news.html I love this idea! What if, instead of moving all the contents from .../introduction.html or .../examples.html to the front page, we just brought over the secondary bar of links: [image: Inline image 1] That way visitors can quickly jump to Examples if they want, or Reviews, or Features, etc. On the other hand, if these could be set up in a tabbed format so that by clicking on one its contents would immediately appear below these links without the user leaving the homepage. I realize this isn't trivial, but it would be so much more visitor-friendly. Here's an image mock-up of what I'm thinking of (notice the News link at the top instead of Introduction): [image: Inline image 3] Just my 2 cents. - Abraham lilypond-website-mockup.png (391K) http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/attachment/178578/0/lilypond-website-mockup.png image.png (12K) http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/attachment/178578/1/image.png -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Re-Remove-old-News-entry-from-home-page-tp178527p178578.html Sent from the Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Remove old News entry from home page
Cross posting to Dev as it is probably better (at least initially) to have the discussion there. On 08/07/15 08:19, Urs Liska wrote: Hi, I've just stumbled over it again: The first thing you see on lilypond.org after the latest release informations is the news item about the Fried edition prize. I really think this should be either removed or pushed downward by new news. Isn't there anything worthwile that can be added here? Would be frustrating if not ... Urs It's trivial to remove things, but I cannot comment on what you want to replace it with. Perhaps we can tweak the 'website' slightly (i.e. make small changes to the TexInfo code) to perhaps do something like moving some/all of the text from here http://lilypond.org/introduction.html to the front page/news and jig the menu (?) links around to fit? It's just getting some consensus. James ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
