Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Thanks, Martin, for the tip! Not only are some inbound converted to meaningful VT100-like sequences but I found out that some of the *outbound* are already handled too! Dunno if this was done by Boeblingen or UTSGlobal, but either way, nice job folks!! So ... in a pinch, I tested the followin sequences: ESC[...H for explicit cursor placement ESC[...J for clearing the screen ESC[...m for text attributes (eg: color) I have not tried the clear to here and clear from here operands of the J sequence, but obviously clear all works. Whatever YaST drives is trying for more capability than is present. (Just talking about the output for the moment, which given the capability presently in the 3270 driver should be working flawlessly.) I have tried TERM=vt100, TERM=vt220, and TERM=xterm all with the same ugliness: broken border characters. Methinks YaST is going outside of curses/termcap to do this. -- R; On Thu, 31 May 2007, Martin Schwidefsky wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 23:35 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: On an 'xterm', pressing F1 delivers an ESC[224z sequence. One way to get full-screen 3270 interaction to ASCII apps is to have the 3270 PF1 AID converted to an ESC[224z sequence. With the current 3270 driver in 2.6.x kernels some PFx AID keys are already translated to meaningful escape sequences. For example PF1 AID is translated to \033[[A which is F1 in the vt100 world. You can change the translation with the loadkeys user space tool. The 3270 driver uses a little trick. loadkeys is normally used to do the input translation of raw keyboard keys. The 3270 driver uses the translation table defined with loadkeys for the output as well. This way it is possible to change the code page that is used with a particular device. Just define a new map file an feed it into loadkeys. The map file contains a section where you can replace keys with strings, here is the line for the PF1 translation: string F1 = \033[[A The PF1 key itself is mapped as shift control keycode 113 = F1 The keycode tables in linux are 128 bytes long but there are several of them (keycode, shift keycode, control keycode, ...). On the 3270 side we have 8 bit characters and the AID prefix. The AID prefix codes get translated to 256 + character, so there are keycodes 0-511. For example PF1 is EBCDIC 0xF1 but it always is preceeded with an AID, that makes the keycode for PF1 0x1F1. Four keymap tables are used to cover everything, keycode for 0-127, shift keycode for 128-255, control keycode for 256-383 and shift control keycode for 384-511. So for AID PF1 0x1F1 this translates to shift controlf keycode 113. It is a bit awkward but I did not want to write new user space tools. You'll find the default keymap in linux/drivers/s390/char/defkeymap.map. Change at will, load it with loadkeys and watch :-) -- blue skies, Martin. Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 06:19 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: Not only are some inbound converted to meaningful VT100-like sequences but I found out that some of the *outbound* are already handled too! Dunno if this was done by Boeblingen or UTSGlobal, but either way, nice job folks!! Thanks, the vt100/ANSI emulation was a pet project of mine :-) So ... in a pinch, I tested the followin sequences: ESC[...H for explicit cursor placement ESC[...J for clearing the screen ESC[...m for text attributes (eg: color) Implemented are: Esc [ 0 K Erase from current position to end of line inclusive Esc [ 1 K Erase from beginning of line to current position inclusive Esc [ 2 K Erase entire line (without moving cursor) Esc [ 0 J Erase from current position to bottom of screen inclusive Esc [ 1 J Erase from top of screen to current position inclusive Esc [ 2 J Erase entire screen (without moving the cursor) Esc [ attr ; attr ; ... m with attr ; attr ; ... a sequence of 0 Reset highlight and color 4 Start underlining 5 Start blink 7 Start reverse 24 End underlining 25 End blink 27 End reverse 30 Black 31 Red 32 Green 33 Yellow 34 Blue 35 Magenta 36 Cyan 37 White 39 Black Esc [ n A Cursor n Up Esc [ n F Cursor n Up Esc [ n B Cursor n Down Esc [ n e Cursor n Down Esc [ n E Cursor n Down Esc [ n C Cursor n Forward Esc [ n a Cursor n Forward Esc [ n D Cursor n Backward Esc [ x G Set Cursor Horizontal Absolute Esc [ x ` Set Cursor Horizontal Absolute Esc [ y ; x H Set Cursor Position (x,y) Esc [ y ; x f Set Cursor Position (x,y) Esc [ y d Set Cursor Vertical Absolute Esc 7 Save Cursor Position Esc [ s Save Cursor Position Esc 8 Restore Cursor Position Esc [ u Restore Cursor Position Esc [ n @ Insert n Characters Esc [ n P Delete n Characters Esc [ n X Erase n Characters Esc c Reset Terminal Esc D Line Feed Esc E Next Line Esc M Reverse Index Esc Z Respond ID Esc [ 5 n Device Status Report Esc [ 6 n Cursor Position Report -- blue skies, Martin. Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Rick, Clone the termcap entry for the ADM3 and replace the two command entries with the appropriate sequences from your list. ADM3s only support two functions (clear screen, and move cursor absolute). YaST has code to be smarter when it has to do all the work itself and can't rely on the terminal to do anything. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Geek toys (spun off from: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!)
This is what I want: http://www.zcorp.com/products/printersdetail-450.asp?ID=1 One guy who uses it (or an earlier model) to make 3D puzzles calls it his Santa Claus machine. He starts it up at night and in the morning he has the finished product waiting for him. Jon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Geek toys (spun off from: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!)
I don't want anything where you have to request a quote g K -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Brock Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:58 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Geek toys (spun off from: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!) This is what I want: http://www.zcorp.com/products/printersdetail-450.asp?ID=1 One guy who uses it (or an earlier model) to make 3D puzzles calls it his Santa Claus machine. He starts it up at night and in the morning he has the finished product waiting for him. Jon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Geek toys (spun off from: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!)
On Jun 1, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Jon Brock wrote: This is what I want: http://www.zcorp.com/products/ printersdetail-450.asp?ID=1 One guy who uses it (or an earlier model) to make 3D puzzles calls it his Santa Claus machine. He starts it up at night and in the morning he has the finished product waiting for him. Yeah, but it's still $40K. When desktop models are $2K, come talk to me. (I wonder if small 3D plastic printers, non-color, already are? Not that I have a spare two grand right now, but that's about the threshold between utterly beyond the realm of possibility and yeah, I might think about doing that -- it turns out that $100 to $125 is my whim pricing threshold). Those are neat. So, too, are the projects in Digital Machinist. I *hate* being targeted by advertising that actually works, but evidently either Circuit Cellar or Nuts and Volts sold my name to Digital Machinist. They sent me the free issue and I subscribed for a year. The projects there are basically, how to turn a regular milling machine into a CNC mill and I don't know how I'd ever use one for anything other than making parts for small engine repair, but it just seems so COOL to feed the machine a DXF (or equivalent) file and a chunk of bar stock, and get back something complex and metal. You can get into CNC milling for about $6,000, about $2000 if you buy everything used and are pretty handy. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Geek toys (spun off from: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!)
I just said I wanted it. I didn't say I could get it. Having had my first child (she's 3 now) at age 42, in a few more years I'm going to be saying, Let's see now ... dentures or tuition, tuition or dentures, what's the call? Jon snip Yeah, but it's still $40K. When desktop models are $2K, come talk to me. /snip -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Geek toys (spun off from: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Thornton wrote: On Jun 1, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Jon Brock wrote: This is what I want: http://www.zcorp.com/products/ printersdetail-450.asp?ID=1 One guy who uses it (or an earlier model) to make 3D puzzles calls it his Santa Claus machine. He starts it up at night and in the morning he has the finished product waiting for him. Yeah, but it's still $40K. When desktop models are $2K, come talk to me. (I wonder if small 3D plastic printers, non-color, already are?) Yup. They are, at least for the home experimenter: http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome and http://www.fabathome.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fab%40Home:Overview I'm hoping to start on one of these myself, for the fun of it. The individual parts for these rarely exceed my pain threshold, and I can buy them a bit at a time. - -- Pat -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGYMcANObCqA8uBswRAmA8AJ9M6PbgvugNXYbu/7lEo0pAJsAtgACgpPfs cwB8bUvV4maj4XBt7d2cUYk= =nmTZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 begin:vcard fn:Patrick Spinler n:Spinler;Patrick adr:Ozmun Center 1-12;;200 First St SW;Rochester;Mn;55905;United States email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:507-284-9485 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 23:35 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: On an 'xterm', pressing F1 delivers an ESC[224z sequence. One way to get full-screen 3270 interaction to ASCII apps is to have the 3270 PF1 AID converted to an ESC[224z sequence. With the current 3270 driver in 2.6.x kernels some PFx AID keys are already translated to meaningful escape sequences. For example PF1 AID is translated to \033[[A which is F1 in the vt100 world. You can change the translation with the loadkeys user space tool. The 3270 driver uses a little trick. loadkeys is normally used to do the input translation of raw keyboard keys. The 3270 driver uses the translation table defined with loadkeys for the output as well. This way it is possible to change the code page that is used with a particular device. Just define a new map file an feed it into loadkeys. The map file contains a section where you can replace keys with strings, here is the line for the PF1 translation: string F1 = \033[[A The PF1 key itself is mapped as shift control keycode 113 = F1 The keycode tables in linux are 128 bytes long but there are several of them (keycode, shift keycode, control keycode, ...). On the 3270 side we have 8 bit characters and the AID prefix. The AID prefix codes get translated to 256 + character, so there are keycodes 0-511. For example PF1 is EBCDIC 0xF1 but it always is preceeded with an AID, that makes the keycode for PF1 0x1F1. Four keymap tables are used to cover everything, keycode for 0-127, shift keycode for 128-255, control keycode for 256-383 and shift control keycode for 384-511. So for AID PF1 0x1F1 this translates to shift controlf keycode 113. It is a bit awkward but I did not want to write new user space tools. You'll find the default keymap in linux/drivers/s390/char/defkeymap.map. Change at will, load it with loadkeys and watch :-) -- blue skies, Martin. Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
When I was at the coal company, so many ages ago, we had all these: the Yale ASCII code running on a Series 1(?), then the 7171 controller replacing that, and we have a 7170, which we developed code for to allow us to attach digitizing boards directly to VM, replacing the need for our DECsystem-1090 at the time. Ultimately, this setup was replaced with PCs, then a new-fangled techie thing that everyone thought would be a passing fad. Boy, that brought back lots of memories, including two weeks in Endicott working with one of the first 7170's and a digitizer we had shipped out there and back, getting the first shot at making them work together. -- .~.Robert P. Nix Mayo Foundation /V\RO-OE-5-55200 First Street SW /( )\ 507-284-0844 Rochester, MN 55905 ^^-^^ - In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different. On 5/30/07 9:00 AM, David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John was this a 717 type device as described in, Granted, we had a 3270ish box on the 3274's coax network that would allow a regular ASCII terminal to be used instead of, say, a 3277.? And can you point to an appropriate location to see what a 7171 type device would look like. A 7171 (aka the Yale ASCII Controller) was a standard IBM half-height cabinet (same physical width and depth as other 370 processor and disk hardware, so it would line up nicely in rows, just half height,). It contained a 7RU chassis with a parallel channel interface card, the control unit processor cards (2), and up to 8 serial interface cards with 8 ports on each card, for a total of 64 connected ASCII devices per 7171 unit. AFAIK, they only came in Standard Ivory -- rumor had it you could get different color door panels, but the sides only came in Ivory. The color conversion kit contained two cans of spray enamel, some masking tape and a drop cloth...8-) AFAIK, it was the only terminal controller ever sold by IBM that supported more than 32 physical devices. It appeared to the host as two local non-SNA 3274s, each with 32 devices. If you *really* want obscure, find a 7170. Channel-attached UNIBUS cage, allowed use of the VAX Ethernet adapters for WISCnet and the very early VM TCP code. Weird, weird, *weird* device. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
running on a Series 1(?) Shh! I'm trying to forget those beasts ever existed. Anything that cares in what order you power up the parts is ... traumatic. Bleah. Boy, that brought back lots of memories, including two weeks in Endicott working with one of the first 7170's and a digitizer we had shipped out there and back, getting the first shot at making them work together. The cage enclosures from 7170 serial #s 12 and 18 are sitting in my living room. They're exactly the right size and height for end tables; they had nice formica tops and they've got plenty of pre-installed power outlets with nice cable races...8-). The PCs are long gone, I'm afraid (although I do still have the boot diskettes). A 7171 would make a peachy beer fridge. I've always thought that 3380 cabinets would have made wonderful wardrobes (with a few internal modifications and application of a lot of degreaser). I'd also love to get my hands on a couple of 8232s. The innards are worthless, but they're really nice enclosed 19 racks. Maybe it's just a postmodern decorating sort of day. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
You don't have any old empty S360 chassis in your garage for storage? Opportunities missed, huh? K -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:32 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system! running on a Series 1(?) Shh! I'm trying to forget those beasts ever existed. Anything that cares in what order you power up the parts is ... traumatic. Bleah. Boy, that brought back lots of memories, including two weeks in Endicott working with one of the first 7170's and a digitizer we had shipped out there and back, getting the first shot at making them work together. The cage enclosures from 7170 serial #s 12 and 18 are sitting in my living room. They're exactly the right size and height for end tables; they had nice formica tops and they've got plenty of pre-installed power outlets with nice cable races...8-). The PCs are long gone, I'm afraid (although I do still have the boot diskettes). A 7171 would make a peachy beer fridge. I've always thought that 3380 cabinets would have made wonderful wardrobes (with a few internal modifications and application of a lot of degreaser). I'd also love to get my hands on a couple of 8232s. The innards are worthless, but they're really nice enclosed 19 racks. Maybe it's just a postmodern decorating sort of day. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
You don't have any old empty S360 chassis in your garage for storage? Opportunities missed, huh? No, all the 360 gear I have is live hardware. 8-) It's the DEC-10, the DEC-2040, and the assorted PDP-11 cabinets I need to find space for. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Or a bigger house g. K -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:23 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system! You don't have any old empty S360 chassis in your garage for storage? Opportunities missed, huh? No, all the 360 gear I have is live hardware. 8-) It's the DEC-10, the DEC-2040, and the assorted PDP-11 cabinets I need to find space for. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Or a bigger house g. Someday I'm going to have an outbuilding with raised floor and proper cogen equipment. If I build it, then the machines will come... -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On May 31, 2007, at 2:04 PM, David Boyes wrote: Or a bigger house g. Someday I'm going to have an outbuilding with raised floor and proper cogen equipment. If I build it, then the machines will come... You have made one critical mistake with that plan. You got married. After a while, you know better than to buy the machine in the first place, because you can *imagine* the look you will get when She Who Must Be Obeyed comes home and finds it lurking in the garage. I *know* whereof I speak. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
You got married. After a while, you know better than to buy the machine in the first place, because you can *imagine* the look you will get when She Who Must Be Obeyed comes home and finds it lurking in the garage. I *know* whereof I speak. Four magic words to get out of the doghouse free: kitty rescue vet bills. Works every time. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Then I must have an abberative spouse. She helped me build a 6 foot tall Pentium Chip model. For a 2 minute gag. 400 lights and drew 11 amps off of batteries. She thought it was a good idea to gut the 9672 and put it in the garage. She makes me buy the more expensive power tool because it has more features I'll use. She bought me a car for Valentines day. She watches football. She bought me a HDTV for football season last fall. I could go on. Linux on 390 Port LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU wrote on 05/31/2007 02:38:39 PM: On May 31, 2007, at 2:04 PM, David Boyes wrote: Or a bigger house g. Someday I'm going to have an outbuilding with raised floor and proper cogen equipment. If I build it, then the machines will come... You have made one critical mistake with that plan. You got married. After a while, you know better than to buy the machine in the first place, because you can *imagine* the look you will get when She Who Must Be Obeyed comes home and finds it lurking in the garage. I *know* whereof I speak. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
If you ever get divorced, let me know g. K -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Melin Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:00 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system! Then I must have an abberative spouse. She helped me build a 6 foot tall Pentium Chip model. For a 2 minute gag. 400 lights and drew 11 amps off of batteries. She thought it was a good idea to gut the 9672 and put it in the garage. She makes me buy the more expensive power tool because it has more features I'll use. She bought me a car for Valentines day. She watches football. She bought me a HDTV for football season last fall. I could go on. Linux on 390 Port LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU wrote on 05/31/2007 02:38:39 PM: On May 31, 2007, at 2:04 PM, David Boyes wrote: Or a bigger house g. Someday I'm going to have an outbuilding with raised floor and proper cogen equipment. If I build it, then the machines will come... You have made one critical mistake with that plan. You got married. After a while, you know better than to buy the machine in the first place, because you can *imagine* the look you will get when She Who Must Be Obeyed comes home and finds it lurking in the garage. I *know* whereof I speak. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On May 31, 2007, at 2:59 PM, James Melin wrote: Then I must have an abberative spouse. She helped me build a 6 foot tall Pentium Chip model. For a 2 minute gag. 400 lights and drew 11 amps off of batteries. She thought it was a good idea to gut the 9672 and put it in the garage. She makes me buy the more expensive power tool because it has more features I'll use. She bought me a car for Valentines day. She watches football. She bought me a HDTV for football season last fall. I could go on. Yeah, well, I shouldn't complain. I waxed enthusiastic over the convert a plotter to a PCB etcher article in the June Circuit Cellar, and Amy said, you can buy me one of those for my birthday. So I did; I now have an HP 7550A plotter sitting here, and I'm waiting for pens to arrive. I bought enough spares that I will have a set of pens, and a few to gut and replace with Sharpies (which make decent etch resist). Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 3:59 PM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Melin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then I must have an abberative spouse. While my wife and yours share some very positive traits, I would have to say that abberative doesn't even come close to being sufficient. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Yeah, well, I shouldn't complain. I waxed enthusiastic over the convert a plotter to a PCB etcher article in the June Circuit Cellar, and Amy said, you can buy me one of those for my birthday. Maybe we should add a hall of fame for spouses on linuxvm.org...8-) -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
I thought it was just me, but it seems that most spouses of geeks turn out to either be geeks themselves or at least geek-interest-supporting. Fuzzy On 5/31/07, David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe we should add a hall of fame for spouses on linuxvm.org...8-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
What Can I say. I am exceptionally lucky. Mark Post [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Linux on 390 Port LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU To LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU cc 05/31/2007 03:12 PM Subject Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system! Please respond to Linux on 390 Port LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 3:59 PM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Melin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then I must have an abberative spouse. While my wife and yours share some very positive traits, I would have to say that abberative doesn't even come close to being sufficient. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Rick Troth wrote:
Let me say it again: TUI output to a 3270 is TRIVIAL
and TUI input from a 3270 is EMINENTLY DOABLE. The difference
between byte-at-a-time TUI apps and bock-mode TUI apps is simple
key assignment. Use the function keys along with bursts of text
and there is no problem.
There are 48 or so combinations of ALT-keys that are usable, and 48 or
so combinations of cntrl-keys that are usable, and then some programs
distinguish between left-alt and right-alt giving yet another 48 or so
combinations of keys, and so far we've not counted keys associated with
special characters such as ;:[]{} (some of which are used), or PgUp,
PgDn (some of which are used) etc etc.
How does one get a 3270 to generate these?
It would be possible to write block-mode applications for Linux, but
current interactive programs expect keys to be presented asynchronously.
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
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Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On 5/30/07, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one get a 3270 to generate these? It would be possible to write block-mode applications for Linux, but current interactive programs expect keys to be presented asynchronously. One of the tricks I have encountered in the past is using a single character in an input field combined with one reserved PF-key. And in the case of Linux the presentation layer does not need the PF-keys, you have some freedom to use more PF-keys for the simulation. The other one we did (on local terminals) was to repeat read modified to the terminal and pick up the character in the field before Enter was pressed (pretty expensive hobby). Whether you would want PF-keys to simulate navigation on a screen with (cursor) keys is not obvious to me (well, actually it is - but I don't want to contribute to that fight). Since the current cursor position is transmitted with Enter of PF-key, I could imagine that moving the cursor between two AID keys can be passed to the application as if a few arrow keys were pressed. How hard would a 3270 based implementation of ncurses library be? And would that solve the issues? Rob -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Fw: [LINUX-390] Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
John was this a 717 type device as described in, Granted, we had a 3270ish box on the 3274's coax network that would allow a regular ASCII terminal to be used instead of, say, a 3277.? And can you point to an appropriate location to see what a 7171 type device would look like. A 7171 (aka the Yale ASCII Controller) was a standard IBM half-height cabinet (same physical width and depth as other 370 processor and disk hardware, so it would line up nicely in rows, just half height,). It contained a 7RU chassis with a parallel channel interface card, the control unit processor cards (2), and up to 8 serial interface cards with 8 ports on each card, for a total of 64 connected ASCII devices per 7171 unit. AFAIK, they only came in Standard Ivory -- rumor had it you could get different color door panels, but the sides only came in Ivory. The color conversion kit contained two cans of spray enamel, some masking tape and a drop cloth...8-) AFAIK, it was the only terminal controller ever sold by IBM that supported more than 32 physical devices. It appeared to the host as two local non-SNA 3274s, each with 32 devices. If you *really* want obscure, find a 7170. Channel-attached UNIBUS cage, allowed use of the VAX Ethernet adapters for WISCnet and the very early VM TCP code. Weird, weird, *weird* device. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Rob van der Heij wrote: On 5/30/07, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one get a 3270 to generate these? It would be possible to write block-mode applications for Linux, but current interactive programs expect keys to be presented asynchronously. One of the tricks I have encountered in the past is using a single character in an input field combined with one reserved PF-key. And in the case of Linux the presentation layer does not need the PF-keys, I'm not sure I follow, but I note that some applications use some function keys. I tend to not use short-cuts (accelerators) as in the Linux world they're rarely obvious to me, except when they're highlighted in a dialogue. As they are in YAST. How would you go in VI, navigating with hjkl and others? What about commands such as dw? i for insert at cursor, a for insert after current cursor. What about mouse-capable character apps such as links, elinks, w3m and pine? you have some freedom to use more PF-keys for the simulation. The other one we did (on local terminals) was to repeat read modified to the terminal and pick up the character in the field before Enter was pressed (pretty expensive hobby). As we've noted here before, I/O for small amounts of data gets expensive. To read one character on an original 3270, as best I recall, one actually reads AID-posposSFposposchar read buffer is, of course, worse. For those who don't understand this, AID identifies the key - enter, PF1-whatever etc. Then there's the cursor position, in code. Then the SF identifies the start of a field (more recently there's SFE but I don't know how that goes), then the field postilion, encoded. Then the field contents. And them (maybe) more fields. Note: Action keys - PA1, Cancel etc don't send data. Whether you would want PF-keys to simulate navigation on a screen with (cursor) keys is not obvious to me (well, actually it is - but I don't want to contribute to that fight). Since the current cursor position is transmitted with Enter of PF-key, I could imagine that moving the cursor between two AID keys can be passed to the application as if a few arrow keys were pressed. One needs to move the cursor, preferably by means other than the TAB key. Since applications can use PF keys, I don't see how you can use them for other purposes. How hard would a 3270 based implementation of ncurses library be? And would that solve the issues? There's also SLANG. I don't see how you can get combinations such as ALT-O, ^Q and PF1 to the application without doing lots of expensive mucking around and/or making life difficult for the user. But then, in my time it's been others making rash promises and then expecting me to fulfill them. You could write a subset, an analogue of CURSES and/or SLANG and write to that API, but that would not satisfy much existing code. OTOH it may well be enough to get one out of the latest pickle. Its functionality would be somewhat similar to a web interface. Better, I think, the idea we debated a few months ago, with a new async device that a peecee could attach to, and that VM can switch between guests. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please do not reply off-list -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Let me say it again: TUI output to a 3270 is TRIVIAL and TUI input from a 3270 is EMINENTLY DOABLE. The difference between byte-at-a-time TUI apps and bock-mode TUI apps is simple key assignment. Use the function keys along with bursts of text and there is no problem. This is a much bigger project than just getting a simpler starter system. Let's boil the ocean one teacup at a time. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
How hard would a 3270 based implementation of ncurses library be? And would that solve the issues? Since ncurses mostly just deals with output, probably not too bad -- I faintly remember that Alan Crosswell had done some work on that way back when at Columbia, but I don't remember where I stored a copy of it. It doesn't really address the input issues at all, though. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Since one can telnet to z/VM and logon to a user (provided, of course z/VM is set up to do so) Wouldn't it be easier to write some widget for CMS to talk to a telnet session in a curses friendly manner rather than try to grind, cut, slice and hammer out a solution to talk to 3270? Mind, I understand that if you have no network to telnet to z/VM with in the first place, you have no network through which Linux may deliver services, and therefore accessing a CMS friendly starter system is somewhat less of a concern than your network outage. David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Linux on 390 Port LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU To LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU cc 05/30/2007 09:17 AM Subject Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system! Please respond to Linux on 390 Port LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU How hard would a 3270 based implementation of ncurses library be? And would that solve the issues? Since ncurses mostly just deals with output, probably not too bad -- I faintly remember that Alan Crosswell had done some work on that way back when at Columbia, but I don't remember where I stored a copy of it. It doesn't really address the input issues at all, though. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Since one can telnet to z/VM and logon to a user (provided, of course z/VM is set up to do so) Wouldn't it be easier to write some widget for CMS to talk to a telnet session in a curses friendly manner rather than try to grind, cut, slice and hammer out a solution to talk to 3270? No argument from this camp. I've already come up with a telnet to LAT gateway appliance that seems to be very effective for console access, but it involves another Linux guest. DEC worked out a lot of these issues a long time ago; another forgotten technology that we'd do well to revive. Mind, I understand that if you have no network to telnet to z/VM with in the first place, you have no network through which Linux may deliver services, and therefore accessing a CMS friendly starter system is somewhat less of a concern than your network outage. The solution of providing a simple script to prompt for network settings in line mode and bring up the network in the starter system temporarily so you can get to it and make the settings permanent with yast worked a lot better. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Fw: [LINUX-390] Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
David Boyes remarked: How hard would a 3270 based implementation of ncurses library be? And would that solve the issues? Since ncurses mostly just deals with output, probably not too bad -- I faintly remember that Alan Crosswell had done some work on that way back when at Columbia, but I don't remember where I stored a copy of it. It doesn't really address the input issues at all, though. Agreed, the input management and key recognition in the terminfo tree is awkward (at best) but some of the logic has, at least, been thought about-- even though many of the old ASCII terminals don't fit it very well. With the advent of ANSI x3.64 (peeled off of the VT100 and then enhanced with all kinds of visible bells... (smirks) What is annoying is that some of the keys fit the model very well but there are usually all kinds of variations on the action keys-- and, to make you get almost psychotic enough to go on a multi-state killing spree (I love that line from Back To School). function keys often map to some weird and oh-so-terrible escape sequences. Been There, Done That. (laughs) I don't fit into a spreadsheet cell all that well, now, do I? One more day... and Buh-Bye! (I'll have to re-subscribe to this list from my gmail addy...) John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines (GNUrd), Stand-Up Philosopher Phone: (813) 356-5322 (t/l 697) Adsumo ergo raptus sum MacOS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows. Red Hat Certified Engineer (#803004680310286) IBM Certified: IBM AIX 4.3 System Administration, System Support -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On 5/30/07, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure I follow, but I note that some applications use some function keys. I tend to not use short-cuts (accelerators) as in the Linux world they're rarely obvious to me, except when they're highlighted in a dialogue. As they are in YAST. You add another layer that has for example an input field in the upper left where you can type a character and press a PF-key to simulate a single key being pressed. Tedious, and I would hope that for most normal cases you would be able to have a series of keys presented to the application. And there would be escape combinations that allow those special keys to be passed to the application if they have to. How would you go in VI, navigating with hjkl and others? What about commands such as dw? i for insert at cursor, a for insert after current cursor. Challenge... but I was more thinking of the kind of dialogs that you see when doing a Linux install in text mode. What about mouse-capable character apps such as links, elinks, w3m and pine? The equivalent would be to move the cursor to that spot and some AID key. Some of the termulators also have the option to move the cursor with the mouse or more. you have some freedom to use more PF-keys for the simulation. The other one we did (on local terminals) was to repeat read modified to the terminal and pick up the character in the field before Enter was pressed (pretty expensive hobby). IIRC this was pong. The 3270 order to write the ball would issue a read modified and find where you positioned the cursor. On next write the bat would be moved one place in the direction of your cursor. Long gone. I stopped using double and triple PF-keys in Xedit when I lost my BSC terminal. Rob -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Wednesday, 05/30/2007 at 02:49 ZE8, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be possible to write block-mode applications for Linux, but current interactive programs expect keys to be presented asynchronously. Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. As you say, if the applications are block-mode apps, a 3270 will suffice as long as you can live with only 29 action keys (ENTER, PF1-24, PA1-3, SYSREQ). You should be able to get through YaST, for example. If you really need vi before the network is up, wait a month for z/VM 5.3. It allows you to attach the integrated VT220 console to a guest, letting Linux us it just as it would in an LPAR. [While it's possible to run a 3270 in graphics mode through the Auxiliary Device (hello, GDDM), a rift in space-time is the usual result and, IMO, isn't worth the headache.] Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Wed, 30 May 2007, John Summerfield wrote:
There are 48 or so combinations of ALT-keys that are usable, and 48 or
so combinations of cntrl-keys that are usable, and then some programs
distinguish between left-alt and right-alt giving yet another 48 or so
combinations of keys, and so far we've not counted keys associated with
special characters such as ;:[]{} (some of which are used), or PgUp,
PgDn (some of which are used) etc etc.
How does one get a 3270 to generate these?
Don't. Excellent question, John, and the answer is that you don't.
Don't worry about Alt keys or Ctrl keys.
Simply use what the 3270 can do and build your menus and dialogues
from that. And then there's navigation. (see ESC[H sequences)
On an 'xterm', pressing F1 delivers an ESC[224z sequence.
One way to get full-screen 3270 interaction to ASCII apps
is to have the 3270 PF1 AID converted to an ESC[224z sequence.
Textual input can be simplified: If the user entered something
without navigation, the 3270 returns that text and a NL.
If they navigated, then text entered is prefixed with
Escape
[
row
semicolon
column
H
which an ASCII app can interpret as easily as the ESC[224z
generated by the ubiquitous 'xterm'.
This is completely within reach.
It would be possible to write block-mode applications for Linux, but
current interactive programs expect keys to be presented asynchronously.
Actually, current applications simply lack the needed extensions
to handle block-mode inbound navigation. It's not so much synch/asynch
as it is that they don't deal with a mapped display both ways.
-- R;
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Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Wed, 30 May 2007, Rob van der Heij wrote: ...I could imagine that moving the cursor between two AID keys can be passed to the application as if a few arrow keys were pressed. That's another way to do it, in addition to the ESC[...H hack. It's inelegant, but requires less changes to the applications. But we were talking about convincing Novell and RedHat and others to create a CMS-friendly, or in this case a 3270-friendly, installation tool. For that, crack open the code, add the logic to properly handle mapped inbound traffic, retain prior behaviour, and you're done! This is a cake walk for the distributors. -- R; -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 11:40 PM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rick Troth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- This is a cake walk for the distributors. That's very wrong, in the real world of limited resources. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On May 30, 2007, at 10:35 PM, Rick Troth wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007, John Summerfield wrote:
There are 48 or so combinations of ALT-keys that are usable, and
48 or
so combinations of cntrl-keys that are usable, and then some programs
distinguish between left-alt and right-alt giving yet another 48
or so
combinations of keys, and so far we've not counted keys associated
with
special characters such as ;:[]{} (some of which are used), or PgUp,
PgDn (some of which are used) etc etc.
How does one get a 3270 to generate these?
Don't. Excellent question, John, and the answer is that you don't.
Don't worry about Alt keys or Ctrl keys.
That's all very well for you EVIL VI USERS.
Those of us who have been trained not to pee just anywhere and prefer
Emacs[0] will have Words with you.
Adam
[0] No, meta-x-save-buffer doesn't COUNT as C-x C-s.
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Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Wednesday, 05/30/2007 at 11:40 AST, Rick Troth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But we were talking about convincing Novell and RedHat and others to create a CMS-friendly, or in this case a 3270-friendly, installation tool. For that, crack open the code, add the logic to properly handle mapped inbound traffic, retain prior behaviour, and you're done! This is a cake walk for the distributors. For installation, wouldn't it be more generally useful to be able to PUNCH a kickstart/autoyast file with the kernel? Then you could use your fave editor and macros to generate the autoyast file in CMS and don't worry about Linux's use of the 3270. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 1:01 AM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- For installation, wouldn't it be more generally useful to be able to PUNCH a kickstart/autoyast file with the kernel? Then you could use your fave editor and macros to generate the autoyast file in CMS and don't worry about Linux's use of the 3270. Hold that thought. I'm just about ready to publish a shell script that will generate a _very_ minimal autoinst.xml file. (I've been burning up my slice of the z9 and my personal Hercules box (for LPAR testing) for the last week.) Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Fw: [LINUX-390] Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
I cannot help but think that this is a job for inverse TN3270. (Not sure what else to call it. Maybe reverse protocol conversion?) Making a Linux distro CMS-friendly is one thing, and is VERY useful. But making it 3270-friendly is closer to same as a PC, which is what some customers expect. The principle of least astonishment comes into play. Let me explain. Getting the *output* from 'yast' and other textual (but full-screen) tools to display on a 3270 is easy. It's the *input* from a 3270 which is more challenging, and that only because the text mode apps presume on byte-at-a-time keystroke interaction. But we who live in the 3270 world know full well that block-mode input is fully interactive. Actually, I can see how some of this _could_ almost be done... but it may take some creativity in using a non-tty interface/driver which would front-end the TTY driver (well, a wedge into it, at least). (laughs) Look, I've been around a bit. I'll admit that I'm underwhelmed by the local capabilities of a 3270-ish device (it's just a buffered display w/ little in the way of local intelligence... though you can make various chunks of the screen protected for forms). I have to admit the times I've written the bisync drivers for a 3270ish terminal enemalator that I liked the protocol, it was just the tube that I really didn't like. Heck, I even wrote a handshake for data transfer between hospital ancillary systems on the Unix end that basically, as I look on it now, acted like a robot. Granted, we had a 3270ish box on the 3274's coax network that would allow a regular ASCII terminal to be used instead of, say, a 3277. Heck, I played with a black box device that made the 327x terminal look like a vt220, too, so this kind of faking can't be all that hard. Been there, done that. I _did_ have fun, however, with Uniscopes-- the Sperry+UNIVAC buffered terminals which DID have a lot of local intelligence but had, to my eye, an annoyingly clunky bisync protocol (UCCP was _not_ fun and had a lot of features I didn't like to deal with... but it was that clunky handshake that caused me to write a full screen editor for the Uniscope and UTS-400 terminals just to cut down on the number of the poll/select handshakes to display a line for editing... and be ready for the next editing/entry. I'm wondering if there's a cute way to simulate this whole bizarre handshake inside the line discipline logic? In some ways you have to emulate the terminal internally and just push the buffer out to the display frequently enough to do the job... but, to my limited knowledge, the 3270 doesn't really pass keystrokes at all, but does want to enter into a field and transmission is implicit. (laughs) A virtual KD terminal with a text-mode frame buffer... (shakes head) 'tis a pity I ain't a mainframer. I *will* grant that some things may be harder to enemalate within such an environment... so, maybe, vi will be out... or, maybe, not. I'm still hoping for a turnkey Linux CD, kind of like the turnkey MVS 3.8 CD I've played with, which might make it easier for me to understand how it all fits together. I've put Linux on pSeries, Sparcstations along with PCs, thinkpads and PCs... but the big 'ol mainframe *still* throws me a curve... even though I played with the architecture back in the days of the V5 USF being mapped to it without Guest VLANs (you know... using CTCs and IUCVs) but could never get my own hands dirty. -soup John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines (GNUrd), Stand-Up Philosopher Phone: (813) 356-5322 (t/l 697) Adsumo ergo raptus sum MacOS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows. Red Hat Certified Engineer (#803004680310286) IBM Certified: IBM AIX 4.3 System Administration, System Support -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Fw: [LINUX-390] Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Hello! John was this a 717 type device as described in, Granted, we had a 3270ish box on the 3274's coax network that would allow a regular ASCII terminal to be used instead of, say, a 3277.? And can you point to an appropriate location to see what a 7171 type device would look like. Your description struck a chord based on your reference to that MVS3.8 Turnkey disk. As it happens I lurk over on most of the lists there, I also manage a few, so your reference caught me, and I thought I would ask. (The list in question was discussing the right way to attach almost anything else to an emulated environment on Intel. It happens I triggered it, but that's all I'll say.) -- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you. Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Campbell Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:15 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: [LINUX-390] Fw: [LINUX-390] Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS- friendly starter system! I cannot help but think that this is a job for inverse TN3270. (Not sure what else to call it. Maybe reverse protocol conversion?) Making a Linux distro CMS-friendly is one thing, and is VERY useful. But making it 3270-friendly is closer to same as a PC, which is what some customers expect. The principle of least astonishment comes into play. Let me explain. Getting the *output* from 'yast' and other textual (but full-screen) tools to display on a 3270 is easy. It's the *input* from a 3270 which is more challenging, and that only because the text mode apps presume on byte-at-a-time keystroke interaction. But we who live in the 3270 world know full well that block-mode input is fully interactive. Actually, I can see how some of this _could_ almost be done... but it may take some creativity in using a non-tty interface/driver which would front-end the TTY driver (well, a wedge into it, at least). (laughs) Look, I've been around a bit. I'll admit that I'm underwhelmed by the local capabilities of a 3270-ish device (it's just a buffered display w/ little in the way of local intelligence... though you can make various chunks of the screen protected for forms). I have to admit the times I've written the bisync drivers for a 3270ish terminal enemalator that I liked the protocol, it was just the tube that I really didn't like. Heck, I even wrote a handshake for data transfer between hospital ancillary systems on the Unix end that basically, as I look on it now, acted like a robot. Granted, we had a 3270ish box on the 3274's coax network that would allow a regular ASCII terminal to be used instead of, say, a 3277. Heck, I played with a black box device that made the 327x terminal look like a vt220, too, so this kind of faking can't be all that hard. Been there, done that. I _did_ have fun, however, with Uniscopes-- the Sperry+UNIVAC buffered terminals which DID have a lot of local intelligence but had, to my eye, an annoyingly clunky bisync protocol (UCCP was _not_ fun and had a lot of features I didn't like to deal with... but it was that clunky handshake that caused me to write a full screen editor for the Uniscope and UTS-400 terminals just to cut down on the number of the poll/select handshakes to display a line for editing... and be ready for the next editing/entry. I'm wondering if there's a cute way to simulate this whole bizarre handshake inside the line discipline logic? In some ways you have to emulate the terminal internally and just push the buffer out to the display frequently enough to do the job... but, to my limited knowledge, the 3270 doesn't really pass keystrokes at all, but does want to enter into a field and transmission is implicit. (laughs) A virtual KD terminal with a text-mode frame buffer... (shakes head) 'tis a pity I ain't a mainframer. I *will* grant that some things may be harder to enemalate within such an environment... so, maybe, vi will be out... or, maybe, not. I'm still hoping for a turnkey Linux CD, kind of like the turnkey MVS 3.8 CD I've played with, which might make it easier for me to understand how it all fits together. I've put Linux on pSeries, Sparcstations along with PCs, thinkpads and PCs... but the big 'ol mainframe *still* throws me a curve... even though I played with the architecture back in the days of the V5 USF being mapped to it without Guest VLANs (you know... using CTCs and IUCVs) but could never get my own hands dirty. -soup John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines (GNUrd), Stand-Up Philosopher Phone: (813) 356-5322 (t/l 697) Adsumo ergo raptus sum MacOS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows. Red Hat Certified Engineer (#803004680310286) IBM Certified: IBM AIX 4.3 System Administration, System Support
Re: Let Novell Know if you want a easy CMS-friendly starter system!
Dave ... Great idea! Let me abuse your thread just a bit. I cannot help but think that this is a job for inverse TN3270. (Not sure what else to call it. Maybe reverse protocol conversion?) Making a Linux distro CMS-friendly is one thing, and is VERY useful. But making it 3270-friendly is closer to same as a PC, which is what some customers expect. The principle of least astonishment comes into play. Let me explain. Getting the *output* from 'yast' and other textual (but full-screen) tools to display on a 3270 is easy. It's the *input* from a 3270 which is more challenging, and that only because the text mode apps presume on byte-at-a-time keystroke interaction. But we who live in the 3270 world know full well that block-mode input is fully interactive. I know some Novell and SuSE people are on the list. I hope they hear this! Let me say it again: TUI output to a 3270 is TRIVIAL and TUI input from a 3270 is EMINENTLY DOABLE. The difference between byte-at-a-time TUI apps and bock-mode TUI apps is simple key assignment. Use the function keys along with bursts of text and there is no problem. The UTS folks (back when UTS was young and they were part of Amdahl) demonstrated that applications can be written which work equally well with either a byte-mode ASCII terminal or a block-mode 3270 tube. My point in saying that this happened a long time ago is only to note that there is no new technology required, and there's no exclusion of the expected traditional behaviour. You can get YaST (or any such TUI) to handle a 3270 without losing its current traits. Applications built to deal with both terminal types have two ways they can go: front-end a kind of reverse protocol converter (with a variant of ANSI X3.64 on input and *unchanged* X3.64 output) or bypass that and detect the 3270 and handle that stream directly. Yeah ... we gotta have it! CMS-friendly is great. But go ahead and also make them 3270-friendly. It's just too easy to not do. -- R; On Fri, 18 May 2007, David Boyes wrote: A few months ago, a couple of people complained about how difficult it is to get Linux started on the mainframe and how foreign the process is for mostly mainframe shops. At that time, the people on the list discussed creating a starter system for Linux that could be downloaded from Novell's WWW sites and installed using more CMS-friendly tools. We (SNA) have been having conversations with Novell and they have asked for a show of support for people who have experienced the problem of getting started and would find the ability to download a small starter system that would provide an installation server for future Linux guests w/o the hassle of tape IPL, etc useful. If this is a tool that you would find useful as you ramp up to your first install, or that would have stuck out as significantly easier to install (and thus would have helped you decide on SUSE), please send mail to mpost at novell.com. No guarantees, but if we get a reasonable number of responses, we'll be able to make the case to Novell that they should make the tool available. All we need is a show of hands that people would find it useful. Send Mark a short note, please. -- db David Boyes Sine Nomine Associates -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
