Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Stephen Frazier wrote: Martha McConaghy wrote: Whether or not you are willing to trust the information provided on the wiki is totally up to each individual. Just because some wiki's are full of crap isn't really a good reason not to try this one. Extensive history suggests that Wikis serving a dedicated and participatory audience improve dramatically over time. I've watched the music and the quantum physics pages on Wikipedia go from humorous to marvellous over the last few years. A Wiki is not a free lunch. If the audience habituates to editing and correcting mistakes on the spot, and further, about 3% of this audience routinely works on general maintenance (e.g., keeping pages of their interest on their watchlist so they catch vandalism within a day and roll back the changes) a Wiki works well. As a delivery system to a non-participatory passive audience a Wiki does not work well. Lets use the list for new questions /problems and put the old ones on the Wiki. Use them bot for what they were designed for. Amen, Stephen -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
David Boyes wrote: No, I understood what he meant. I was expressing a sincere dislike for diluting the discussion here with Yet Another Place to check for things that interest me. Doing the discussion using the discussion tools in Mediawiki is a significant step backward in function in that I have to use their editor and their encoding, and I can't take advantage of any of the editing and indexing tools I've developed over the years, The MW editor is really crude and not really very well adapted to keyboard- oriented users. I guess I'm just getting less tolerant of things that use my time unwisely. I'd like to contribute, but the tools are so far away from what I spend most of my day doing that there's a lot of impact to how effective I can be. I could write comments and stuff in text files and then upload it, but at that point I might as well just post it to this list. It's a useful project. I just don't think the discussion tools in the wiki are very good. Good or not, they can provide a record of why things were done and why they were done the way that were. On a list, discussion can peter out quit quickly, even when a matter remains unresolved, errors will never be corrected if they're not corrected quickly, and out of date information is never updated. Even the diligent can get out-o-date information. A discussion thread I know of on the woodwork forums has been running for five years or so. It describes some problems with a particular piece of machinery, and fixes for those problems. As the model was improved (engineering changes) the information has been updated. That kind of maintenance cannot work on a list like this. Such a discussion about an ongoing product (eg a wiki) has some advantages over a list, especially a general list such as this. The woodwork forum is hosted with vbulletin, and it's normal that participants in a thread get notification of updates to threads they have participated in, and one can also subscribe to threads without posting to them. If someone wants to participate in the maintenance of the wiki, they should establish a regular time, maybe once a week, to have a look at what discussions are taking place. It won't have the same kind of responsiveness as a list, but short response times are not always an advantage. -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Mark Post wrote: There are a few rules, for lack of a better term, that will apply to the Wiki, none of them particularly onerous: 1. Although technically not required, we would prefer that anyone contributing to the wiki create an account before doing so. You should insist on this. I've installed Drupal at isay.js.id.au and done a little, but not much, to publicise it. There is nothing to prevent people from trying to create accounts, and a few people have done so. Because this is all new to me, I decided that account creations would have to be approved. Very glad I am. So far, I have approved one account and denied lots. Reasons for denial: 1. The software sends email to the email address provided. A lot has bounced. 2. I Google user names and email addresses, initially from idle curiosity. I've found some usernames enrolled at other sites, sometimes in the same timeframe. Some names and domain names are associated with spammers. The one I approved was apparently by a young Indian (not North American!) woman recently graduated from an Indian university. I thought she might have some useful contributions to make. She's not been back. I've decided I'd like Drupal to record the IP address associated with new enrollments (and maybe other activity, and the ability to block some locations. Proxies for example. Someone might claim to be located in Russia, but that doesn't mean they are. I suggest that you too moderate enrollments. Maybe you could also _require_ people to outline why they want an account - that should halt any bots in their tracks. If you solicit enrollments from a cyberlocation such as this list, ask people to choose account names and provide other information that would help you recognise them. I someone claiming to be John Campbell and having experience in AIX, likely you'd say, Oh, that John Campbell. Welcome! -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Mark Post wrote: Cross-posted to Linux-390, IBMVM, and IBM-Main The idea of having a Wiki (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiki) for mainframe Linux and z/VM has been floating around for some time. It was thought that having a Wiki with a fair amount of content already in it would help it reach a critical mass of usability far sooner than might otherwise happen. A fair amount of behind-the-scenes work has been done over the last couple of years to make that happen, without much success. One can easily get the idea you're talking about Linux on VM. Consider making it clearer that Linux on VM is only part of the story, Linux on zHardware (is s/390 sufficiently matured yet to be excluded?) and Linux on Hercules could both find homes there. -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Mark Post wrote: On 9/23/2009 at 1:36 AM, Douglas M. Wooster d...@isomedia.com wrote: -snip- I'm sure one could use a Wiki as a discussion forum, but it really seems better suited to developing, storing, and searching reference material. I'm not sure how this meme got started, but nobody is advocating moving general discussion from the mailing list to the Wiki. What I _did_ say/mean was that as the Wiki grows, I would like to see the discussion of what content goes where (organization/structure), what other topics are needed, what existing topics need editing, etc., happen on the Talk pages of the Wiki itself, not here. Until the number of people actively contributing to the Wiki reaches whatever critical mass is necessary, most of that discussion is going to have to happen in this mailing list. That's a significant difference, obviously, and one that I believe respects the time of the people on the list that aren't going to be interested in such minutiae. Being able to place documentation where other people can find it, like you can do on a wiki, is great, when you have something authoritative to say. Given the population of this mailing list, I can't think of any more authoritative source. Everyone from the people doing actual z/VM and Linux development, to the distribution providers, to the old hands at z/VM and Linux, to the brand new person is represented here. Seems db misinterpreted something Jack Woehr said, then some of the others of us took it further off the rails. David, Jack was referring to the discussion of the wiki itself when he was talking about discussion on the wiki. Mark, I think that if discussion of the wiki on the wiki could be mirrored to this list, at least for a while, that might be of interest to others and maybe inspire a few, I can do that! -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
John Summerfield wrote: David, Jack was referring to the discussion of the wiki itself when he was talking about discussion on the wiki. That's correct, and that's all I was saying. -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
No, I understood what he meant. I was expressing a sincere dislike for diluting the discussion here with Yet Another Place to check for things that interest me. Doing the discussion using the discussion tools in Mediawiki is a significant step backward in function in that I have to use their editor and their encoding, and I can't take advantage of any of the editing and indexing tools I've developed over the years, The MW editor is really crude and not really very well adapted to keyboard- oriented users. I guess I'm just getting less tolerant of things that use my time unwisely. I'd like to contribute, but the tools are so far away from what I spend most of my day doing that there's a lot of impact to how effective I can be. I could write comments and stuff in text files and then upload it, but at that point I might as well just post it to this list. It's a useful project. I just don't think the discussion tools in the wiki are very good. - db On Sep 25, 2009, at 2:07 AM, John Summerfield deb...@herakles.homelinux.org wrote: Mark Post wrote: On 9/23/2009 at 1:36 AM, Douglas M. Wooster d...@isomedia.com wrote: -snip- I'm sure one could use a Wiki as a discussion forum, but it really seems better suited to developing, storing, and searching reference material. I'm not sure how this meme got started, but nobody is advocating moving general discussion from the mailing list to the Wiki. What I _did_ say/mean was that as the Wiki grows, I would like to see the discussion of what content goes where (organization/ structure), what other topics are needed, what existing topics need editing, etc., happen on the Talk pages of the Wiki itself, not here. Until the number of people actively contributing to the Wiki reaches whatever critical mass is necessary, most of that discussion is going to have to happen in this mailing list. That's a significant difference, obviously, and one that I believe respects the time of the people on the list that aren't going to be interested in such minutiae. Being able to place documentation where other people can find it, like you can do on a wiki, is great, when you have something authoritative to say. Given the population of this mailing list, I can't think of any more authoritative source. Everyone from the people doing actual z/ VM and Linux development, to the distribution providers, to the old hands at z/VM and Linux, to the brand new person is represented here. Seems db misinterpreted something Jack Woehr said, then some of the others of us took it further off the rails. David, Jack was referring to the discussion of the wiki itself when he was talking about discussion on the wiki. Mark, I think that if discussion of the wiki on the wiki could be mirrored to this list, at least for a while, that might be of interest to others and maybe inspire a few, I can do that! -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
My vote on this topic is that the real time, day to day discussions stay here on the lists (VM and zLinux). I like the fact that the information comes to me, via e-mail, with no effort on my part. I think a proper role for the Linux Wiki would be to take on part of the functionally of the linuxvm.org web site that Mark Post currently maintains single-handedly. That is the Wiki could act as a searchable, long term store on useful Linux on the mainframe presentations, how-tos, pointers to articles, etc. It could relieve some of the work that Mark nows does on behalf of the community; e.g, each of us could post our own SHARE/WAVV/etc. presentation there, instead of e-mailing them to Mark for him to place on linuxvm.org. Discussion on the content and accuracy/usefulness of the material on the Wiki could take place here on the lists. I would not like to see another site that would require extra time from me to go look through every day or so just to see if something new and interesting has been posted there. I think I am in agreement with Dr. Boyes on this issue. David Boyes wrote: No, I understood what he meant. I was expressing a sincere dislike for diluting the discussion here with Yet Another Place to check for things that interest me. Doing the discussion using the discussion tools in Mediawiki is a significant step backward in function in that I have to use their editor and their encoding, and I can't take advantage of any of the editing and indexing tools I've developed over the years, The MW editor is really crude and not really very well adapted to keyboard- oriented users. I guess I'm just getting less tolerant of things that use my time unwisely. I'd like to contribute, but the tools are so far away from what I spend most of my day doing that there's a lot of impact to how effective I can be. I could write comments and stuff in text files and then upload it, but at that point I might as well just post it to this list. It's a useful project. I just don't think the discussion tools in the wiki are very good. - db On Sep 25, 2009, at 2:07 AM, John Summerfield deb...@herakles.homelinux.org wrote: Mark Post wrote: On 9/23/2009 at 1:36 AM, Douglas M. Wooster d...@isomedia.com wrote: -snip- I'm sure one could use a Wiki as a discussion forum, but it really seems better suited to developing, storing, and searching reference material. I'm not sure how this meme got started, but nobody is advocating moving general discussion from the mailing list to the Wiki. What I _did_ say/mean was that as the Wiki grows, I would like to see the discussion of what content goes where (organization/ structure), what other topics are needed, what existing topics need editing, etc., happen on the Talk pages of the Wiki itself, not here. Until the number of people actively contributing to the Wiki reaches whatever critical mass is necessary, most of that discussion is going to have to happen in this mailing list. That's a significant difference, obviously, and one that I believe respects the time of the people on the list that aren't going to be interested in such minutiae. Being able to place documentation where other people can find it, like you can do on a wiki, is great, when you have something authoritative to say. Given the population of this mailing list, I can't think of any more authoritative source. Everyone from the people doing actual z/ VM and Linux development, to the distribution providers, to the old hands at z/VM and Linux, to the brand new person is represented here. Seems db misinterpreted something Jack Woehr said, then some of the others of us took it further off the rails. David, Jack was referring to the discussion of the wiki itself when he was talking about discussion on the wiki. Mark, I think that if discussion of the wiki on the wiki could be mirrored to this list, at least for a while, that might be of interest to others and maybe inspire a few, I can do that! -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Martha McConaghy wrote: Wow..I don't really know how this discussion got so far off-base. For several years now, there has been a lot of discussion in the z/VM community about the need to have a place to collect the wisdom of the elders, i.e. the knowledge and experience of those of us who have been doing this a long time and which can be of help to the new folks who keep showing up asking for help. A wiki seemed like a useful place to try and do that. (Dave even tried to get something like this going a few years ago.) Mark Post is simply trying to get that movement going again and I appreciate his efforts. Since Linux continues to be the hot thing that companies are putting on z/VM, it makes sense to include information on it in the wiki too. Absolutely no one has suggested getting rid of this list or supplanting it with the wiki. There is certainly no reason the two cannot coexist nicely. Whether or not you are willing to trust the information provided on the wiki is totally up to each individual. Just because some wiki's are full of crap isn't really a good reason not to try this one. If there are problems with the way the wiki is managed, we'll deal with it. We are simply trying to fill a need that, so far, no one has successfully addressed. Martha McConaghy (SHARE Linux and VM Program Manager) Strategic Planner/Project Manager Marist College There are many questions that get posted here over and over again. We need the Wiki to have the answers to those questions. to keep them off this list. The 100th time that someone has to answer how do I add a new disk to Linux? doesn't improve this list. Lets use the list for new questions /problems and put the old ones on the Wiki. Use them bot for what they were designed for. -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
John Summerfield wrote: Who should, sensibly, assume that this site speaks for any part of the Linux community? Well, the Linux on z/VM community. It needs a wiki. It's a good idea. -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
I second that rant. Especially the push vs. pull. I subscribe to several mailing lists, and their contents all appear in one place - my mailbox. There's far more chance that I'll have a few minutes to read something in my mailbox than that I'll keep a checklist of wikis to go cycle through. I'm sure one could use a Wiki as a discussion forum, but it really seems better suited to developing, storing, and searching reference material. Being able to place documentation where other people can find it, like you can do on a wiki, is great, when you have something authoritative to say. Also, I think just changing how LINUX-390 does discussions would kill participation. At one place I used to work, they changed from using a set of VM-based forum tools that you used a little like mutt, to Web-based discussions where you had to look for the right page (vaguely like how you would navigate in a wiki). Participation dropped by more than half. After several years, it had not fully recovered. Several of the most knowledgable and prolific contributors dropped out. Douglas On Tue September 22 2009, David Boyes David Boyes dbo...@sinenomine.net wrote: 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) Ugh. Please, no. Not anything personal, but: :rant. Pet peeve -- scattering the discussion all over the place and changing it from a push model to a pull model. What's wrong with discussing it here, where we all don't have to go poll for the discussion? Does this discussion *really* need the real-time updates, or would it benefit from some thought? What about offline access? :erant. I feel better now. -- db --- --- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Permission is granted to use the email address(es), postal addresses, telephone numbers, Web site URLs, names, account numbers, userids, passwords, and other identifying or contact information contained in, or attached to, this email, for the purposes of responding to queries, providing support, or fulfilling sales orders contained in this email or its attachment(s) (if any). Trading, selling, otherwise publishing, or making available to employees or third parties, any identifying information contained in this email or its attachment(s) (if any) for other purposes, including use in advertising, is forbidden. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
I agree with last speaker John Summerfield here. A wiki has it's pros and cons, I think it's best use is for keeping links, hints and tips, useful scripts, experinces and solution to problems and so on. A sort of 'nice-to-have-docs' at a known location. The place to put things if it is suitable after it has been on this list. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of John Summerfield [deb...@herakles.homelinux.org] Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 04:16 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki Jack Woehr wrote: David Boyes wrote: 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) What's wrong with discussing it here, What's wrong with keeping all the source files in your computer program on different computers? A Wiki is self-contained, info and rationale, rolled into one. That's about half of why they're so useful. Instead of a website filled with assertion, they're sites filled with assertion and justification. Every man and his dog can create a wiki, and it's difficult to tell which are authoritative. Take Redhat/Fedora wikis for example. There are some hosted by Red Hat and the Fedora Project. Then, some of the developers/team members head off to other places to create wikis of their own, maybe as authoritative, maybe not. Maybe they like blowing their own trumpets, instead of promoting the project as a whole. Who should, sensibly, assume that this site speaks for any part of the Linux community? http://pathname.com/ I'm a member of the woodwork forums, http://www.woodworkforums.com/ which seems to be the best place (but certainly not the only place) to discuss matters woody. I find it quite difficult to keep track of what's happening there, though there are daily mails sent out for threads members are enrolled in (and one enrolls either deliberately or by contributing), but for anything new one has to go looking. In contrast, everything on this list arrives in my inbox. I see everything, choose what to read, respond where I feel the urge. If it was a wiki, I'd be battling to keep up, I'd probably just fall away. A site like http://isay.js.id.au/ can be good for documenting stuff (or publishing one's opinions), and http://www.php.net shows how well documentation based on a wiki can work, there is the official description and then user comments to clarify finer points, suggest alternatives or document handy tricks. -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Jack Woehr wrote: John Summerfield wrote: Who should, sensibly, assume that this site speaks for any part of the Linux community? Well, the Linux on z/VM community. It needs a wiki. It's a good idea. It's a shame you quoted me without context. -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
John Summerfield wrote: Jack Woehr wrote: John Summerfield wrote: Who should, sensibly, assume that this site speaks for any part of the Linux community? Well, the Linux on z/VM community. It needs a wiki. It's a good idea. It's a shame you quoted me without context. Wasn't the intent, John. I was springboarding off of a line of your prose to say something I wanted to say about the Wiki itself. Not arguing with you, more like a relay handoff. -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
for anything new one has to go looking. In contrast, everything on this list arrives in my inbox. I see everything, choose what to read, respond where I feel the urge. If it was a wiki, I'd be battling to keep up, I'd probably just fall away. General rant aside, I think that's the point that gets me the most. I want the technology to *tell* me when something interesting happens (for sufficiently wide definitions of interesting), not have to go look for it. I have plenty of other stuff to do, and having to poll the wiki to find out if there's something interesting going on is IMHO a step backwards. I like the idea of user created documentation, but maybe there's a way to notify this list with a summary of updates every so often. That would ameliorate some of my crankyness. A site like http://isay.js.id.au/ can be good for documenting stuff (or publishing one's opinions), and http://www.php.net shows how well documentation based on a wiki can work, Note that both are heavily and systematically edited.
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Wow..I don't really know how this discussion got so far off-base. For several years now, there has been a lot of discussion in the z/VM community about the need to have a place to collect the wisdom of the elders, i.e. the knowledge and experience of those of us who have been doing this a long time and which can be of help to the new folks who keep showing up asking for help. A wiki seemed like a useful place to try and do that. (Dave even tried to get something like this going a few years ago.) Mark Post is simply trying to get that movement going again and I appreciate his efforts. Since Linux continues to be the hot thing that companies are putting on z/VM, it makes sense to include information on it in the wiki too. Absolutely no one has suggested getting rid of this list or supplanting it with the wiki. There is certainly no reason the two cannot coexist nicely. Whether or not you are willing to trust the information provided on the wiki is totally up to each individual. Just because some wiki's are full of crap isn't really a good reason not to try this one. If there are problems with the way the wiki is managed, we'll deal with it. We are simply trying to fill a need that, so far, no one has successfully addressed. Martha McConaghy (SHARE Linux and VM Program Manager) Strategic Planner/Project Manager Marist College -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
On 9/23/2009 at 1:36 AM, Douglas M. Wooster d...@isomedia.com wrote: -snip- I'm sure one could use a Wiki as a discussion forum, but it really seems better suited to developing, storing, and searching reference material. I'm not sure how this meme got started, but nobody is advocating moving general discussion from the mailing list to the Wiki. What I _did_ say/mean was that as the Wiki grows, I would like to see the discussion of what content goes where (organization/structure), what other topics are needed, what existing topics need editing, etc., happen on the Talk pages of the Wiki itself, not here. Until the number of people actively contributing to the Wiki reaches whatever critical mass is necessary, most of that discussion is going to have to happen in this mailing list. That's a significant difference, obviously, and one that I believe respects the time of the people on the list that aren't going to be interested in such minutiae. Being able to place documentation where other people can find it, like you can do on a wiki, is great, when you have something authoritative to say. Given the population of this mailing list, I can't think of any more authoritative source. Everyone from the people doing actual z/VM and Linux development, to the distribution providers, to the old hands at z/VM and Linux, to the brand new person is represented here. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
On 9/23/2009 at 9:51 AM, David Boyes dbo...@sinenomine.net wrote: -snip- I like the idea of user created documentation, but maybe there's a way to notify this list with a summary of updates every so often. That would ameliorate some of my crankyness. The RecentChanges page has an RSS feed button on it. (Also an Atom button that has the same icon as the RSS feed, but I'm not familiar with that.) But, that will notify you every time a new user account is created, etc. But beyond that, the idea of a Wiki isn't something you look at every so often to see if anything changed. You go there to look for something specific, when you need to find it. If there are particular pages you really do want to be notified about when changed, you can watch that article. Hmm. Writing this has given me the idea that we should have a Topics Needed/Wanted page, and people who are interested in contributing can watch that page to be notified when a new topic is added or removed. That would be better than using the main page, once we start to get a significant amount of content there. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
On Mon September 21 2009, Mark Post Mark Post mp...@novell.com wrote: On 9/16/2009 at 9:46 PM, Douglas M. Wooster d...@isomedia.com wrote: Cool idea, Mark. If I had some direct experience with Linux on z, I'd write something. I suggest that some good topics would be related to network configuration and boot setup. Those look like the areas that are most different between Linux on z and Linux on other platforms. If you think those would be good topics, then you could add them to the list of starter topics on the main page. Just because someone (you in this case) doesn't have enough background to write articles, doesn't mean they can't contribute by pointing out what information would be useful to them. Knowing what is needed is a big part of the battle. OK ... done. :) Douglas Mark Post --- --- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Permission is granted to use the email address(es), postal addresses, telephone numbers, Web site URLs, names, account numbers, userids, passwords, and other identifying or contact information contained in, or attached to, this email, for the purposes of responding to queries, providing support, or fulfilling sales orders contained in this email or its attachment(s) (if any). Trading, selling, otherwise publishing, or making available to employees or third parties, any identifying information contained in this email or its attachment(s) (if any) for other purposes, including use in advertising, is forbidden. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
I seem to have lost that link to the Wiki server , anyone please Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Post [mp...@novell.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 21:03 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki On 9/21/2009 at 2:36 PM, Jack Woehr j...@well.com wrote: -snip- 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) Making that happen is the end goal. The reality of the moment is that we need to direct people there from the places they currently inhabit. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
http://wiki.linuxvm.org/wiki/Main_Page Regards Paul -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: 22 September 2009 10:02 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki I seem to have lost that link to the Wiki server , anyone please Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ ___ Atos Origin and Atos Consulting are trading names used by the Atos Origin group. The following trading entities are registered in England and Wales: Atos Origin IT Services UK Limited (registered number 01245534) and Atos Consulting Limited (registered number 04312380). The registered office for each is at 4 Triton Square, Regents Place, London, NW1 3HG.The VAT No. for each is: GB232327983 This e-mail and the documents attached are confidential and intended solely for the addressee, and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you receive this e-mail in error, you are not authorised to copy, disclose, use or retain it. Please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your systems. As emails may be intercepted, amended or lost, they are not secure. Atos Origin therefore can accept no liability for any errors or their content. Although Atos Origin endeavours to maintain a virus-free network, we do not warrant that this transmission is virus-free and can accept no liability for any damages resulting from any virus transmitted. The risks are deemed to be accepted by everyone who communicates with Atos Origin by email. ___ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) Ugh. Please, no. Not anything personal, but: :rant. Pet peeve -- scattering the discussion all over the place and changing it from a push model to a pull model. What's wrong with discussing it here, where we all don't have to go poll for the discussion? Does this discussion *really* need the real-time updates, or would it benefit from some thought? What about offline access? :erant. I feel better now. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
David Boyes wrote: 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) What's wrong with discussing it here, What's wrong with keeping all the source files in your computer program on different computers? A Wiki is self-contained, info and rationale, rolled into one. That's about half of why they're so useful. Instead of a website filled with assertion, they're sites filled with assertion and justification. -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Jack Woehr wrote: David Boyes wrote: 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) What's wrong with discussing it here, What's wrong with keeping all the source files in your computer program on different computers? A Wiki is self-contained, info and rationale, rolled into one. That's about half of why they're so useful. Instead of a website filled with assertion, they're sites filled with assertion and justification. Every man and his dog can create a wiki, and it's difficult to tell which are authoritative. Take Redhat/Fedora wikis for example. There are some hosted by Red Hat and the Fedora Project. Then, some of the developers/team members head off to other places to create wikis of their own, maybe as authoritative, maybe not. Maybe they like blowing their own trumpets, instead of promoting the project as a whole. Who should, sensibly, assume that this site speaks for any part of the Linux community? http://pathname.com/ I'm a member of the woodwork forums, http://www.woodworkforums.com/ which seems to be the best place (but certainly not the only place) to discuss matters woody. I find it quite difficult to keep track of what's happening there, though there are daily mails sent out for threads members are enrolled in (and one enrolls either deliberately or by contributing), but for anything new one has to go looking. In contrast, everything on this list arrives in my inbox. I see everything, choose what to read, respond where I feel the urge. If it was a wiki, I'd be battling to keep up, I'd probably just fall away. A site like http://isay.js.id.au/ can be good for documenting stuff (or publishing one's opinions), and http://www.php.net shows how well documentation based on a wiki can work, there is the official description and then user comments to clarify finer points, suggest alternatives or document handy tricks. -- Cheers John -- spambait 1...@coco.merseine.nu z1...@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
On 9/16/2009 at 9:46 PM, Douglas M. Wooster d...@isomedia.com wrote: Cool idea, Mark. If I had some direct experience with Linux on z, I'd write something. I suggest that some good topics would be related to network configuration and boot setup. Those look like the areas that are most different between Linux on z and Linux on other platforms. If you think those would be good topics, then you could add them to the list of starter topics on the main page. Just because someone (you in this case) doesn't have enough background to write articles, doesn't mean they can't contribute by pointing out what information would be useful to them. Knowing what is needed is a big part of the battle. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Mark Post wrote: If you think those would be good topics, then you could add them to the list of starter topics on the main page. Just because someone (you in this case) doesn't have enough background to write articles, doesn't mean they can't contribute by pointing out what information would be useful to them. Knowing what is needed is a big part of the battle. Three suggestions: 1. Informative online articles about Linux z/VM * Of course I'd think of this because I write such :) 2. More and more links to all things related elsewhere online * Herc, freeware, etc. 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
On 9/21/2009 at 2:36 PM, Jack Woehr j...@well.com wrote: -snip- 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) Making that happen is the end goal. The reality of the moment is that we need to direct people there from the places they currently inhabit. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Mark Post wrote: On 9/21/2009 at 2:36 PM, Jack Woehr j...@well.com wrote: -snip- 3. Redirect discussion of what should be on the Wiki to discussion pages of the Wiki itself!!! * Like, uh, that's what Wikis are for :) Making that happen is the end goal. The reality of the moment is that we need to direct people there from the places they currently inhabit. Awesome. Already started the other two ideas. -- Jack J. Woehr# «'I know what it means well enough, when I find http://www.well.com/~jax # a thing,' said the Duck: 'it's generally a frog or http://www.softwoehr.com # a worm.'» - Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Nice work Mark! Will spend some time there. Gerard -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Post Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:21 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Linux and z/VM Wiki Cross-posted to Linux-390, IBMVM, and IBM-Main The idea of having a Wiki (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiki) for mainframe Linux and z/VM has been floating around for some time. It was thought that having a Wiki with a fair amount of content already in it would help it reach a critical mass of usability far sooner than might otherwise happen. A fair amount of behind-the-scenes work has been done over the last couple of years to make that happen, without much success. So, I've decided to take a different approach. With the assistance of Marist College (and Velocity Software who owns the domain name), I've put up a Wiki at http://wiki.linuxvm.org/wiki/ for people to contribute content. We'll see how things go from here to determine if it's worth keeping or not. There are a few rules, for lack of a better term, that will apply to the Wiki, none of them particularly onerous: 1. Although technically not required, we would prefer that anyone contributing to the wiki create an account before doing so. 2. Keep things civil and professional, both in the articles themselves, as well as the discussion pages for them. 3. Keep things accurate. We expect vendor-specific information to be entered here (although we'd prefer to not have pricing details). But, any exaggerated claims, vapor ware announcements and the like are subject to summary deletion. 4. Try to keep bias to a minimum. Everyone has their favorite distribution or way of doing things. Try not to let others people's preferences in those areas be cause for any Holy Wars [TM]. 5. If you don't own the copyright to something, don't add it to the wiki. 6. Use common sense in general. I hope that people find this useful, and are willing to contribute as they are able. With any luck, it will become a valuable resource for everyone that might become involved in running Linux on System z. Thanks, Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Linux and z/VM Wiki
Cross-posted to Linux-390, IBMVM, and IBM-Main The idea of having a Wiki (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiki) for mainframe Linux and z/VM has been floating around for some time. It was thought that having a Wiki with a fair amount of content already in it would help it reach a critical mass of usability far sooner than might otherwise happen. A fair amount of behind-the-scenes work has been done over the last couple of years to make that happen, without much success. So, I've decided to take a different approach. With the assistance of Marist College (and Velocity Software who owns the domain name), I've put up a Wiki at http://wiki.linuxvm.org/wiki/ for people to contribute content. We'll see how things go from here to determine if it's worth keeping or not. There are a few rules, for lack of a better term, that will apply to the Wiki, none of them particularly onerous: 1. Although technically not required, we would prefer that anyone contributing to the wiki create an account before doing so. 2. Keep things civil and professional, both in the articles themselves, as well as the discussion pages for them. 3. Keep things accurate. We expect vendor-specific information to be entered here (although we'd prefer to not have pricing details). But, any exaggerated claims, vapor ware announcements and the like are subject to summary deletion. 4. Try to keep bias to a minimum. Everyone has their favorite distribution or way of doing things. Try not to let others people's preferences in those areas be cause for any Holy Wars [TM]. 5. If you don't own the copyright to something, don't add it to the wiki. 6. Use common sense in general. I hope that people find this useful, and are willing to contribute as they are able. With any luck, it will become a valuable resource for everyone that might become involved in running Linux on System z. Thanks, Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux and z/VM Wiki
Cool idea, Mark. If I had some direct experience with Linux on z, I'd write something. I suggest that some good topics would be related to network configuration and boot setup. Those look like the areas that are most different between Linux on z and Linux on other platforms. Douglas Wooster On Wed September 16 2009, Mark Post Mark Post mp...@novell.com wrote: Cross-posted to Linux-390, IBMVM, and IBM-Main The idea of having a Wiki (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiki) for mainframe Linux and z/VM has been floating around for some time. It was thought that having a Wiki with a fair amount of content already in it would help it reach a critical mass of usability far sooner than might otherwise happen. A fair amount of behind-the-scenes work has been done over the last couple of years to make that happen, without much success. So, I've decided to take a different approach. With the assistance of Marist College (and Velocity Software who owns the domain name), I've put up a Wiki at http://wiki.linuxvm.org/wiki/ for people to contribute content. We'll see how things go from here to determine if it's worth keeping or not. There are a few rules, for lack of a better term, that will apply to the Wiki, none of them particularly onerous: 1. Although technically not required, we would prefer that anyone contributing to the wiki create an account before doing so. 2. Keep things civil and professional, both in the articles themselves, as well as the discussion pages for them. 3. Keep things accurate. We expect vendor-specific information to be entered here (although we'd prefer to not have pricing details). But, any exaggerated claims, vapor ware announcements and the like are subject to summary deletion. 4. Try to keep bias to a minimum. Everyone has their favorite distribution or way of doing things. Try not to let others people's preferences in those areas be cause for any Holy Wars [TM]. 5. If you don't own the copyright to something, don't add it to the wiki. 6. Use common sense in general. I hope that people find this useful, and are willing to contribute as they are able. With any luck, it will become a valuable resource for everyone that might become involved in running Linux on System z. Thanks, Mark Post --- --- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Permission is granted to use the email address(es), postal addresses, telephone numbers, Web site URLs, names, account numbers, userids, passwords, and other identifying or contact information contained in, or attached to, this email, for the purposes of responding to queries, providing support, or fulfilling sales orders contained in this email or its attachment(s) (if any). Trading, selling, otherwise publishing, or making available to employees or third parties, any identifying information contained in this email or its attachment(s) (if any) for other purposes, including use in advertising, is forbidden. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
