RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Eddie Aronovich wrote: During RMS talk the feeling of love and help to your community was one of the main issues. Abir is right - stop to hate and start to love. Is that anything like Make love - not war? -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tuesday, Jan 21, 2003, at 14:13 Asia/Jerusalem, Gabor Szabo wrote: Thinking it about a bit more I disagree with the term 'blacklisting'. I'd prefer the bug reporting notion. Well, then the Middle-East tech evangelism component in bugzilla is your friend. Short URL: http://snurl.com/mpw (or do a search in Bugzilla: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi ) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tuesday, Jan 21, 2003, at 15:17 Asia/Jerusalem, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: Where can I read about those standards? All your questions answered: http://www.webstandards.org/learn/ AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? NS4 is non- standard. NS6+ uses W3C DOM: http://www.mozilla.org/catalog/web-developer/dom/ Using CSS is it in standard? In general, yes, although there are some non-standard MS extensions to it (like colored scroll bars) More information: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ What is JavaScript version is standard? ECMAScript 262 Edition 3 http://www.mozilla.org/js/language/E262-3.pdf http://tecfa.unige.ch/guides/vrml/vrml97/spec/part1/javascript.html and to learn how to move from jscript to JavaScript: http://mazinger.technisys.com.ar/pruebas-nick/mozilla/docs/compat.html I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? If the site is built well, it should degrade gracefully. Lynx is not 100% standard compliant, but standard sites work better with it then non- standard ones. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
That reminds me, a lot of universaties and other education instatues uses a program called high learning by britanica, the pages this program produce doesn't always work with anything else beside ie, I think they should appear somewhere high in the list.. Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
I think you guys are looking at it from the wrong way it has nothing to do with linux, it has to do with standarts it doesn't matter if some weird browser can show the site, it has to do with official or big companies sites which serve the public should follow w3c standarts, then you can offer them a quick way to check to see what the problems are and a nice icon to put in the end which say they are w3c compatible. That simple no legal arguments no need to prove anything more than running it on the auto tester and show it sends back errors. I think pushing them to use standarts is the answer. Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Adir Abraham wrote: And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? Black listing a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't (necessarily) care much about your list. Moreover, you will have to notice this: 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change. Nevertheless, when there's a change (to Linux) it can be changed back sometime (into not supporting Linux, intentionally or not) for some reason, vice versa. 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of hotzaat diba, just because you black list them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it not being hotzaat diba), but I am not sure that you would want that headache. 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have already mentioned that. Instead, you can do the following: 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support Linux (actually, it's not true. It doesn't support the browers which *you* have *checked*, with your specific software and architecture installed). 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge. Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to do that free of charge. 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of Windows-to-Linux technicians, who will help in converting (and improving), both for free and for money (you can even earn from it, if you do it the right way). Make this group professional, and don't call them missioners or revolutionists. Just make a team which its purpose is to do that work, and that work only. 4) Don't black-list anybody. Nobody owes you anything and nobody has to satisfy your OS you're working on (take this in a good spirit :). Love the problem.. don't hate it. Just something to think about. :) Adir. On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Quoting Shoshannah Forbes, from the post of Wed, 22 Jan: I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? If the site is built well, it should degrade gracefully. Lynx is not 100% standard compliant, but standard sites work better with it then non- standard ones. I'm not sure how much better links is over lynks, but w3m excells over the two in tables, frames and doublebyte chars (I'm not into chinese, but I believe it should handle UTF-8 Hebrew, haven't tried) -- All together now Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg25314/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Shoshannah Forbes, from the post of Wed, 22 Jan: I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? If the site is built well, it should degrade gracefully. Lynx is not 100% standard compliant, but standard sites work better with it then non- standard ones. I'm not sure how much better links is over lynks, but w3m excells over the two in tables, frames and doublebyte chars (I'm not into chinese, but I believe it should handle UTF-8 Hebrew, haven't tried) Try viewing a Hebrew UTF-8 page from a ISO-8859-8 terminal (and tell lynx that the terminal is indeed such!). Hebrew chars should show up just fine. Try viewing a page with accented latin charaters on a Hebrew terminal, and you'll get the original letters, without the accesnts (latin1-ascii conversion). Lynx certainly has pretty good multi-lingual support. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
CSS is a standart HTML is a standart as well as XML see www.w3c.org Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: Later - rewrite the site based on standards. Where can I read about those standards? AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? Using CSS is it in standard? Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? What is JavaScript version is standard? I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? I have WAP-enabled mobile, should all web sites to sag for me? Is there definition of statistical norm that works in our life: majority is norm. If you're not like the Majority - you are deviation. The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant today for new majority? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
good idea, thugh thats mean 99% of the sites out there :( -- Canaan Surfing Ltd. Internet Service Providers Ben-Nes Michael - Manager Tel: 972-4-6991122 Fax: 972-4-6990098 http://sites.canaan.co.il -- - Original Message - From: Yotam Medini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 11:14, Yotam Medini wrote: 1) sending once is enough. 2) who are you ? 3) if you want that kind of list, create it first ! then ask for help maintaining \ hosting it. tal. Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Orr Dunkelman wrote: I think this should be done very carefully. I agree with the notes of Orr and would like to add a few more. For each reported site there should be a short explanation in what way is it broken and possibly a contact name who reported the problem. As the broken site changes it should remain in the list and once the issue gets fixed it should be noted on the list of broken sites, just like in a bug tracking system. This will let us see a progress. If there is one. The owner/webmaster of the affected sites should also be contacted and let him/her know about the problem and about the report. Though this needs to be done even more carefully and with some thought the one who reported the problem can also offer his/her help to fix that specific problem. So we won't only complain but will be creative and not only with the generic explanation but with specific help. Of course for this help you have the full right to charge money. regards Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il Have a look at http://mozilla.org.il/evangel.shtml -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Maybe create a whitelist instead? In each category (news, finance, bank, etc.) label the best site(s) in the category and the shortcomings (if any) with them. That way, people might start making decisions based on the list and site owners might start getting concerned. This can be done in addition to the blacklisting of extremely bad sites (like those who block non-IE browsers or crash Mozilla). Alon On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Orr Dunkelman wrote: I think this should be done very carefully. I agree with the notes of Orr and would like to add a few more. For each reported site there should be a short explanation in what way is it broken and possibly a contact name who reported the problem. As the broken site changes it should remain in the list and once the issue gets fixed it should be noted on the list of broken sites, just like in a bug tracking system. This will let us see a progress. If there is one. The owner/webmaster of the affected sites should also be contacted and let him/her know about the problem and about the report. Though this needs to be done even more carefully and with some thought the one who reported the problem can also offer his/her help to fix that specific problem. So we won't only complain but will be creative and not only with the generic explanation but with specific help. Of course for this help you have the full right to charge money. regards Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full mooon on a dark night, and a smooth road all the way to your door. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: Maybe create a whitelist instead? In each category (news, finance, bank, etc.) label the best site(s) in the category and the shortcomings (if any) with them. That way, people might start making decisions based on the list and site owners might start getting concerned. This can be done in addition to the blacklisting of extremely bad sites (like those who block non-IE browsers or crash Mozilla). Thinking it about a bit more I disagree with the term 'blacklisting'. I'd prefer the bug reporting notion. Gabor ps. I have started to overtake a project which is nearly finished. It is using a lot of javascript and - though I have not tested it yet - I am nearly sure it won't work in a lot of browsers except IE 6.0 The customer at this point cannot afford to rewrite the site, maybe later once he can show his sponsors that the site is up and running. So far I though that we can open the site like this or we can change the scripts that for browsers it is known that it does not work it will redirect to a splash page saying it cannot work with this browser. What should I do ? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il Seems to work in Mozila 1.3a. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition. -- Woody Allen = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? Black listing a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't (necessarily) care much about your list. Moreover, you will have to notice this: 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change. Nevertheless, when there's a change (to Linux) it can be changed back sometime (into not supporting Linux, intentionally or not) for some reason, vice versa. 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of hotzaat diba, just because you black list them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it not being hotzaat diba), but I am not sure that you would want that headache. 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have already mentioned that. Instead, you can do the following: 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support Linux (actually, it's not true. It doesn't support the browers which *you* have *checked*, with your specific software and architecture installed). 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge. Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to do that free of charge. 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of Windows-to-Linux technicians, who will help in converting (and improving), both for free and for money (you can even earn from it, if you do it the right way). Make this group professional, and don't call them missioners or revolutionists. Just make a team which its purpose is to do that work, and that work only. 4) Don't black-list anybody. Nobody owes you anything and nobody has to satisfy your OS you're working on (take this in a good spirit :). Love the problem.. don't hate it. Just something to think about. :) Adir. On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Yap, and let's establish black list of : - applications, that can not be run in text mode. - OSs that can not be booted from only diskette - users, that doesn't know to work with keyboard - something else? Somebody run 2.4 with Gnome or KDE on 286 or 386? No? so what is the problem to upgrade to Mozilla 1.x ? -Original Message- From: Yotam Medini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: Later - rewrite the site based on standards. Where can I read about those standards? http://www.w3.org/ AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? NS4 is one of least standards-complaint browsers available. The DOM 2 standard[1] specifies exactly what should be. Using CSS is it in standard? Yes, and is recommended by the W3C[2]. Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? Yes, XML and XHTML[3] are recommendations of the W3C. What is JavaScript version is standard? ECMAScript, according to standard ECMA-262[4] I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? You've got it the other way around. Lynx renders standard-compliant and accessible sites legibly, because the sites were designed that way. I have WAP-enabled mobile, should all web sites to sag for me? A correctly-written site could be visually pleasing and interactive on an advanced browser, and still remain easily readable on a WAP-enabled cell phone. The W3C site is an example of this. Is there definition of statistical norm that works in our life: majority is norm. If you're not like the Majority - you are deviation. The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant today for new majority? New standards are written all the time, usually with much emphasis on backwards-compatibility. Majority changes over time, amd implementations change even between different browser versions. The only way to be sure your site will work in the future without rewriting is to write to standards. Alon Links: [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ [4] http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ECMA-262.HTM -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Where can I read about those standards? the Web Standards Project could be a good place -- http://www.webstandards.org/ AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? IMO if you're developing a new site you should conform to *current standards* -- there's no logic in wasting time on compatibility with NS4's DOM (which, from my bad, most recent experience with it buggy as hell anyway) -- write your site according to standards such as XML, HTML, XHTML, CSS, ECMAScript and DOM Level 1. All of these provide you with enough tools to do anything you want to in a web site. Using CSS is it in standard? You should use W3C's CSS Level-1 or higher standard. Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? XML itself is a standard. Client-side parsing depends on the browser. I don't know if Netscape 7 has a client-side XML/XSL parsers with it. Most of the time you can get off with using server-side transforming. You should set a version number from which you want your site to support -- Netscape 6 or 7 MSIE 5 would be a good, logical choice. What is JavaScript version is standard? The standardized version of JavaScript is ECMAScript 262. I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? Lynx supports only HTML. I use it too on one of my boxes, and I like using it. Surprisingly enough it handles most sites with no big problems. As long as there's a way to navigate through your site without seeing the pictures (adding an ALT description will do) and without using client-side scripting, the site could be used basically with Lynx. The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant today for new majority? What standards? HTML -- yes. CSS -- yes. Netscape 4's DOM - now. MSIE4's DOM - no. The later two were never standards -- they were competing technologies, from which the DOM level 1 standard was born. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Very interesting. Did you try to enter to w3c with IE, M1.x and NS4x? Tell me about ONE customer, that publish else than My home page, that will pay for such inconsistency of UI. -Original Message- From: Alon Altman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 3:38 PM To: Boulgakov Andrei Subject: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: Later - rewrite the site based on standards. Where can I read about those standards? http://www.w3.org/ AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? NS4 is one of least standards-complaint browsers available. The DOM 2 standard[1] specifies exactly what should be. Using CSS is it in standard? Yes, and is recommended by the W3C[2]. Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? Yes, XML and XHTML[3] are recommendations of the W3C. What is _javascript_ version is standard? ECMAScript, according to standard ECMA-262[4] I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? You've got it the other way around. Lynx renders standard-compliant and accessible sites legibly, because the sites were designed that way. I have WAP-enabled mobile, should all web sites to sag for me? A correctly-written site could be visually pleasing and interactive on an advanced browser, and still remain easily readable on a WAP-enabled cell phone. The W3C site is an example of this. Is there definition of statistical norm that works in our life: majority is norm. If you're not like the Majority - you are deviation. The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant today for new majority? New standards are written all the time, usually with much emphasis on backwards-compatibility. Majority changes over time, amd implementations change even between different browser versions. The only way to be sure your site will work in the future without rewriting is to write to standards. Alon Links: [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ [4] http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ECMA-262.HTM -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first.
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers I'm agree with you. all my question were to bring an opinion as yours ( and as mine); most of complains are: Site doesn't support Linux (it is not correct, anyway. Site can not support browser) are the complains of NS4 users. I never seen sites using VbScript client-side, bandwith of today permits show great web sites, companies can't pay big money for support NS3,4, a lot of sites, that can not be reached from non-IE browser are operable with NS6+, Mz1+, SO, imho, it is worth to upgrade browser and as Ms sad in Win installation: sit back and relax. -Original Message- From: Alon Weinstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 3:46 PM To: 'Linux-IL' Subject: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Where can I read about those standards? the Web Standards Project could be a good place -- http://www.webstandards.org/ AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? IMO if you're developing a new site you should conform to *current standards* -- there's no logic in wasting time on compatibility with NS4's DOM (which, from my bad, most recent experience with it buggy as hell anyway) -- write your site according to standards such as XML, HTML, XHTML, CSS, ECMAScript and DOM Level 1. All of these provide you with enough tools to do anything you want to in a web site. Using CSS is it in standard? You should use W3C's CSS Level-1 or higher standard. Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? XML itself is a standard. Client-side parsing depends on the browser. I don't know if Netscape 7 has a client-side XML/XSL parsers with it. Most of the time you can get off with using server-side transforming. You should set a version number from which you want your site to support -- Netscape 6 or 7 MSIE 5 would be a good, logical choice. What is _javascript_ version is standard? The standardized version of _javascript_ is ECMAScript 262. I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? Lynx supports only HTML. I use it too on one of my boxes, and I like using it. Surprisingly enough it handles most sites with no big problems. As long as there's a way to navigate through your site without seeing the pictures (adding an ALT description will do) and without using client-side scripting, the site could be used basically with Lynx. The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant today for new majority? What standards? HTML -- yes. CSS -- yes. Netscape 4's DOM - now. MSIE4's DOM - no. The later two were never standards -- they were competing technologies, from which the DOM level 1 standard was born. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Very interesting. Did you try to enter to w3c with IE, M1.x and NS4x? Tell me about ONE customer, that publish else than My home page, that will pay for such inconsistency of UI. Again -- NS4 is not standards compliant. I went to w3c's site with IE5.0, Netscape 7 Netscape 4.7. It looks the same on IE NS7 (which *are* standards compliant), but not on NS4 -- keeping to the latest standards means making sure the site will look as designed on all the browsers that support these standards *and* that it will still be usable under older browsers, which had their own proprietary standards. The whole idea is the lessen the cost of web development by developing one site. By trying to support browsers such as NS4 (and IE4 for that matter) you develop different sites for different browsers again - so you gained nothing. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
I'm agree with you. all my question were to bring an opinion as yours ( and as mine); most of complains are: Site doesn't support Linux (it is not correct, anyway. Site can not support browser) are the complains of NS4 users. I never seen sites using VbScript client-side, bandwith of today permits show great web sites, companies can't pay big money for support NS3,4 Just to make it clear -- I don't think anyone who was saying the a site doesn't support linux meant a site doesn't support Netscape 3/4 -- it means the site relies on non-standard features available on IE, which is unavailable for Linux. a lot of sites, that can not be reached from non-IE browser are operable with NS6+, Mz1+, If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even need to check for the browser's maker. SO, imho, it is worth to upgrade browser and as Ms sad in Win installation: sit back and relax. Or as Red Hat says it their installation Let's all go and bring ourselves a snack! :-) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even need to check for the browser's maker. You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser maker. According to standards, the only reason to check the browser is to add special non-standard support for legacy browsers (such as NS4). There are ways to bypass even this using @import and other CSS techniques. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Everything is possible. Pass the word. -- Rita Mae Brown, Six of One = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
It should even need to check for the browser's maker. You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser maker. Oops, the 'nt slipped away from the should :-) ofcourse that's what I was trying to say. Checking for browser maker is problematic -- you can never be sure you're checking every browser available, as new browsers come here and there. Right now to do that you need to check for mozilla, netscape, ie, konquerer, galeon, chimera, safari (latest from apple), opera, omniweb, and I probably missed a few. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
During RMS talk the feeling of love and help to your community was one of the main issues. Abir is right - stop to hate and start to love. More of that since most of the users are using IE and most of the sites were done to get business profit, the open source (and especially Mozilla) users are no more than freaks that want to change the world. Blacklist will not hurt most of the companies at all. The only organizations that their appearance on Mozilla list might be in contradiction to their spirit are the Universities and other academic institutes. I don't care about government sites, since they were intended for most of the people. The governmental sites would be a problem only of this would be the only way to get a specific service. As far as I can see there are two main ways to activate (where the second option can be further split): 1. The peaceful way that Abir suggested. And I totally support the idea of group of that should be called: Proprietary to Open-Source technicians (not Windows to Linux). Windows is fine. It has billion of users around the world. Do not fight them - just show alternatives. 2a. Activism against the other ideas. This has to do with a lot of hate. The black-lists and white lists, or lists at all are bad categorization. The lists would do nothing since most if the computer users want to use the software and do not care about the ideology. Does anyone buy software from companies because they donate to world fare founds, encourage sports or donate to education? 2b. Bad activism (and sometime illegal) against ideas. I include in this section partial group users that might do bad things just to make the media to hear them or to impose their opinions. Those users might crack into attack sites and do any other electronic punk. The punk was modern long ago and it has gone. Please do not do it - This is not what the GNU or Linux is about. Remember that GNU is mainly about offering alternatives; give the user the possibility to choose. Wrong free decision is better than totalitarian good decision. If MS offers users the ability to use technology that is cool. That is better than make users to be afraid of technology. I think the rest of ideas about the technical issues (as which standard impose what...) are irrelevant to the main idea. The standards are always imposed by the group that has maximum influence. It can be done by standard organizations, academic (so called) institutes, de-facto standards or any other way. My opinion is: explain me what are the choices and let me choose by myself. Good changes might last long time, we should just have the right spirit. In order to make huge mistakes no help is needed :-) Eddie -Original Message- From: Adir Abraham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 14:37 To: Yotam Medini Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? Black listing a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't (necessarily) care much about your list. Moreover, you will have to notice this: 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change. Nevertheless, when there's a change (to Linux) it can be changed back sometime (into not supporting Linux, intentionally or not) for some reason, vice versa. 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of hotzaat diba, just because you black list them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it not being hotzaat diba), but I am not sure that you would want that headache. 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have already mentioned that. Instead, you can do the following: 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support Linux (actually, it's not true. It doesn't support the browers which *you* have *checked*, with your specific software and architecture installed). 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge. Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to do that free of charge. 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of Windows-to-Linux technicians, who will help in converting (and improving), both for free and for money (you can even earn from it, if you do it the right
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even need to check for the browser's maker. You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser maker. According to standards, the only reason to check the browser is to add special non-standard support for legacy browsers (such as NS4). There are ways to bypass even this using @import and other CSS techniques. Standard-compliant site builders may have been able to fully use such an approach has there been fully-standard-compliant browsers. But the current browsers still have many little bugs that have to be worked aroundif your code stumbles accross one of them. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote: ps. I have started to overtake a project which is nearly finished. It is using a lot of javascript and - though I have not tested it yet - I am nearly sure it won't work in a lot of browsers except IE 6.0 What should I do ? If you can, leave the project. So shall I leave it so when they finally release it we can fingerpoint and say it does not work in Mozilla ? No way. This is the opportunity to educate and make the difference. Otherwise, try to create a ultra-clean no-javascript text-only version of the page which will work on all browsers. Then, add a link between the two sites while defaulting based on HTTP browser detection. Later - rewrite the site based on standards. this is a better suggesttion and this brings me back to a previous thread on how to check a site with various browsers in reasonable cost and time. Note that even if you build standard based site you still need to test but it will be probably faster and you will find less problems. One would hope. Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:03:39 +0200 (IST) Alon Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This can be done in addition to the blacklisting of extremely bad sites (like those who block non-IE browsers or crash Mozilla). Sorry, if Mozilla *crashes* it's definitely a Mozilla bug. So these specific sites should be commended for helping debug Mozilla! Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron ... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. -- Robert Firth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even need to check for the browser's maker. You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser maker. According to standards, the only reason to check the browser is to add special non-standard support for legacy browsers (such as NS4). There are ways to bypass even this using @import and other CSS techniques. Standard-compliant site builders may have been able to fully use such an approach has there been fully-standard-compliant browsers. But the current browsers still have many little bugs that have to be worked aroundif your code stumbles accross one of them. Fine, then fall back to the standard in case you don't recognize the browser. Any problems hereafter are the client's fault. This way your work load decreases as the browsers mature. Besides, if you designed your site around the standards, and then made sucrifices because a given browser was not standard complient, you are probably not far from the standard anyways. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Hi, First of all, my name is Adir, not Abir ;-) Now to clarify: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Eddie Aronovich wrote: 1. The peaceful way that Abir suggested. And I totally support the idea of group of that should be called: Proprietary to Open-Source technicians (not Windows to Linux). Windows is fine. It has billion of users around the world. Do not fight them - just show alternatives. I wasn't talking necessarily about switching OS's, but as you mentioned - to show alternatives, and to add support for both OS's. There may be some companies or others, who might want to get that support, but don't know how (because they use ASP, for instance) - that's where such a technicians group can help - in the wide meaning of the word. Just show them that with what they have, they can do more. And if it involves switching to Linux, that's even better, but this is not what such a group should be all about. 2a. Activism against the other ideas. This has to do with a lot of hate. The Activism against other ideas is bad. Unfortunately, some of us really do it, and actually contradict what GNU and free is all about. 2b. Bad activism (and sometime illegal) against ideas. I include in this [snipped] and it has gone. Please do not do it - This is not what the GNU or Linux is about. Correct. Once again, I know some who do like to do it. Honestly, it makes me wonder what they like more (Linux or cracking). Such a thing only gives a bad reputation, and shows a childish behavior (if this is really a way of someone to show how or why Linux is better). The Windows-Linux problem has been running for a long time, and slowly but carefully people start to realize that there's a real alternative. It will take more time until it achieves at least the 50%-50% (users of Linux and Windows). The subject itself is very touchy. Almost any person whom I talk with about Linux, and knows something about it, reminds me about the war that exists between the two OS's. By the way, some of my friends who saw me in the general CS farm of the Technion, wanted to get my attention as I hadn't seen them. Do you know how they tried to get me? they didn't call my name, but called me Micro$oft sucks :) (as a joke, by the way.. not because they really think so). Why do I hear all that (and I guess not only me)? because many of those conversations, actually do look like a war. Some of you are very excited, and sometimes you take it to different, wrong directions, such as hate and blacklists. Only adding of support to Linux (Hebrew support, DirectX, and more. And I don't say that this support doesn't exist!), will make people thinking. It has to be given by drops, and not by shots. The browsers problem is only one problem among many, that has to be treated in a wise way. Wise Way (in my opinion) is: 1) Adding (suggesting) support from a non compatible software to Linux (change html files and other files, so they can match at least one Linux browser). 2) Showing alternatives, while they are 100% working. 3) If an alternative is welcome, be part of the team that does the blessed work. 4) Let them be happy, and let them advertise it! I haven't seen any chozer betshuva in this list yet. I've been wondering why. 5) Suggest them the whole package (switching completely to Linux), giving one-to-one alternative solutions to what they need, to what they need. Bottom line - they will like the alternatives only if it does a *better* job (and not because of this: hey, you can do the same thing also in Linux. That is NOT a reason to switch an OS, in my opinion). 6) If they are happy with a different OS - let them be so (and be happy for them too. After all, you did succeed to spread the word, and people did listen to you). Those are only general ideas ofcourse. The real question is when (the right timing) and how (attitude) to do it. Best regards, Adir. Eddie -Original Message- From: Adir Abraham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 14:37 To: Yotam Medini Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? Black listing a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't (necessarily) care much about your list. Moreover, you will have to notice this: 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. 2) You
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:36:41 +0200 (IST) Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Black listing a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. Someone already suggested a fix for this problem -- A list of buggy sites along with *non-buggy* sites So the publication (even on a newspaper) would help contrast the two lists. Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't (necessarily) care much about your list. The important factors are the owners. Such a list may have an impact if we can have a big list of comparable sites (buggy vs. non-buggy). 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. No. Just that it's standard compliant or not. If it doesn't display on Linux browsers due to bugs in the browsers -- so be it! Any report on the list should be *linked* to a detailed description which would be helpfull to site webmasters. These details should not be listed on the main page as they are of no interest to non-tech people. 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change. No! (cf. 1.) 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of hotzaat diba, just because you black list them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it not being hotzaat diba), but I am not sure that you would want that headache. This issue should be handled properly (as it becomes popular technique): - The front page should start with a good explanation about the motives (standard compliance etc.) and non-inflamatory intentions of the list (and obviousely should apply these rules). - The list should display a clear message about the method used to categorize the sites (buggy / non-buggy) and about manual methods to correct unjustified categorization (from the point of view of the site owners). 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have already mentioned that. It won't eliminate the problem, but I believe it would help and would give good point of reference (especially when you list non-buggy sites as well). Instead, you can do the following: 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support... This is always true, but if for each complaint you could attach the list URL I thing it would be more effective. 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge. Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to do that free of charge. The price is not the problem. Many site owners don't bother to look at your suggestion even if it contain specific and easy to apply fixes. As an example let me remind an example of pushing mail messages to cellulars (IIRC it was mailpush.com on behalf of Cellcom). Although several members from this list explained to them the bug in their system (They replied any message -- even with Precedence: junk/bulk) and gave the fix with examples, the company refused to hear the voice of reason and kept flooding the list with messages directed to unknown subscribers (lucky for us, I don't hear this company name any longer, seems Justice Prevails after all :-) 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of Windows-to-Linux technicians, You fail to understand that the problem has nothing to do with Linux. It is about professional web development (or rather its lack). You cannot offer professional services (even for free) to people who don't care (eat iz workeng oon MY compooter! de grafix iz grit!) 4) Don't black-list anybody. Nobody owes you anything and nobody has to Let's start with state (tax payer funded) sites. They *do* owe me something. Also they are more important as most of them don't have competition. (can you pay your bills in another municipality site :-) Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. --Robert Wilensky, University of California = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:32:13 +0200 (IST) Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Standard-compliant site builders may have been able to fully use such an approach has there been fully-standard-compliant browsers. But the current browsers still have many little bugs that have to be worked aroundif your code stumbles accross one of them. Interesting logic -- Since C++ compilers are not 100% standard compliant let's all go back and write all our code in FORTRAN! (and since STL is not totaly supported, we better abolish classes and inheritance as well :-) You can still write maintainable code 95% of the time and hack away a *localized*, dirty, ugly workaround for the remaining 5%. In this respect it is completely immaterial if your code is C++, Java, HTML, CSS or other forms of creative expression :-) Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron May the Source be with you! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
