Gallot speaks...
Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: reasonable priced new lutes
In terms of bang for the buck, weren't there a couple of lute makers in Russia and Eastern Europe who were very reasonable. Perhaps Oleg Timofeyev would be the person that would have that info. I'm still waiting for my archlute from Luciano. I'll let you all know what it is like when I get it. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: belly braces
out of 300 lutes Lundberg has examined he has seen the bracing of maybe 15, These are just the ones we have opened up and looked inside. How many have been X-rayed, I wonder. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: reasonable priced new lutes
http://lutemaker.narod.ru RT In terms of bang for the buck, weren't there a couple of lute makers in Russia and Eastern Europe who were very reasonable. Perhaps Oleg Timofeyev would be the person that would have that info. I'm still waiting for my archlute from Luciano. I'll let you all know what it is like when I get it. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Printing and Binding
So, they're online... follow the link baroque folders Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Steve Ramey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: Re: Printing and Binding Hi Donatella, Your binding technique sounds interesting. Speaking only for me, I'd always like to see works of art such as the way you describe your bindings. I'll bet the rest of the folks on the list would, too. Best, Steve Ramey Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Strange...I've just done it after years I had quit... I use a light folder, cut it in two A4 pieces, line them with kind of Florence paper, '500 -'600 like, glue the edges of the lined A4 to a cotton ribbon, the kind which is cut in diagonal and with two folded edges (sorry, I don't know the English name for that..and even the Italian one, but it certainly has..), fold the upper and lower external edges of the ribbon and glue them, then cut another piece and glue it on it in the inner side of the folder. I also glue cloth triangles on the angles, 8 silk light ribbons to close the book, and if I feel like, a painting of the period in the inside cover . I group the papers, I glue the edge and press it on the ribbon inside the book Done. Pattex or Uhu glue will do. I can't play Baroque or Renaissance if I see plastic around the pages.. I was thinking of putting some pictures on my website, might they be of use? Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Charles Browne To: Lutelist Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 8:58 PM Subject: Printing and Binding And now for something completely different! given that there is so much tablature available in downloadable form, I have found that printing and binding of A4 sheets is becoming a regular chore. I have been using plastic comb binders to complete the process, which creates a document that opens fully on the music stand, but I am going to get a thicker file professionally bound with thermal 'glue' binding. I also wondered about using professional printing services to print larger documents as my domestic printer takes hours to print in best quality, especially when I use duplex printing. What does everybody else use and are there some ideas that could be of benefit to us all? best wishes Charles To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: Gallot speaks...
Yes, it is rather a pickle isn't it? I think the truest translation would be: Do not flatter the strings with the right hand when studying to master them. i.e. When first learning a piece, don't add ornaments and agrements with the right hand; first off, learn the fingerings in a simple fashion. This runs true with the nature of Gallot's other suggestions doubtless designed for beginners [in particular no. 7, where he advises to learn pieces slowly (lentement) and cleanly (nettement)]. Also, the idea of ornaments as flattery runs very true with the rhetorical concept of performance of the time - I trust I don't need to go into detail on that point! Vostre tres humble, tres obeissant serviteur (; In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
Wouldn't that be the left hand rather than the right that adds the ornaments? Miles Dempster On Monday, March 28, 2005, at 07:43 AM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: Yes, it is rather a pickle isn't it? I think the truest translation would be: Do not flatter the strings with the right hand when studying to master them. i.e. When first learning a piece, don't add ornaments and agrements with the right hand; first off, learn the fingerings in a simple fashion. This runs true with the nature of Gallot's other suggestions doubtless designed for beginners [in particular no. 7, where he advises to learn pieces slowly (lentement) and cleanly (nettement)]. Also, the idea of ornaments as flattery runs very true with the rhetorical concept of performance of the time - I trust I don't need to go into detail on that point! Vostre tres humble, tres obeissant serviteur (; In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
Nope. An agrement is anything added to pleasure the ear and enhance the sound, such as added grace notes, finger sweeps, brise, et cetera, whether performed by the left hand or right. Even tone colour is sometimes viewed as agrement in some sources. I do however agree that it is odd Gallot focuses only on the right hand and not the left also. Perhaps it is because players often think of the left hand fingerings more than - or sometimes even to the exclusion of - right hand ones that he emphasises it? From this point of view it is a good tip for a beginner. (Keeping in mind that baroque sources are far less precise than renaissance sources in giving right hand fingerings - perhaps this is Gallot's way of providing some advice in this regard to amateurs?) In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miles Dempster [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wouldn't that be the left hand rather than the right that adds the ornaments? Miles Dempster On Monday, March 28, 2005, at 07:43 AM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: Yes, it is rather a pickle isn't it? I think the truest translation would be: Do not flatter the strings with the right hand when studying to master them. i.e. When first learning a piece, don't add ornaments and agrements with the right hand; first off, learn the fingerings in a simple fashion. This runs true with the nature of Gallot's other suggestions doubtless designed for beginners [in particular no. 7, where he advises to learn pieces slowly (lentement) and cleanly (nettement)]. Also, the idea of ornaments as flattery runs very true with the rhetorical concept of performance of the time - I trust I don't need to go into detail on that point! Vostre tres humble, tres obeissant serviteur (; In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
I've heard that the cheap S. Asian (Pakistani?) lutes on ebay are trash. More trouble to make them into a lute than they're worth. I got one of those lutes. It cost me many hours of work (maybe 50-90), many trips to the hardware store, and 4-5 questions posted here to this list (for which I received generous answers). I got it into a playable condition, but I feel lucky. They are not playable as they arrive (action _way_ high, frets won't lay down against fingerboard, ...). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
I've always been curious about the aspect of memorization in lute music. In this paragraph Gallot seems to suggest it. Baron advises to memorize in the beginning stages of learning, but then goes on to say he's not recommending it ( don't have the book handy). Sterling Price, has visited a few times, and I was shocked, at how well he can sight read, and says this is what everyone does. Up to that point, I had two, and working on three, Weiss Sonatas completely memorized. This for me, not being a professional performer, was allot of RAM to store. Since that time I have been only sight reading, but then this seems to have it's own short comings as well. Is there a middle ground. Could this aspect of memorization be a result of the lute being frozen in time, whilst the rest of the musical world went on to fancy memorization ? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Benjamin Narvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:43 AM Subject: Re: Gallot speaks... Yes, it is rather a pickle isn't it? I think the truest translation would be: Do not flatter the strings with the right hand when studying to master them. i.e. When first learning a piece, don't add ornaments and agrements with the right hand; first off, learn the fingerings in a simple fashion. This runs true with the nature of Gallot's other suggestions doubtless designed for beginners [in particular no. 7, where he advises to learn pieces slowly (lentement) and cleanly (nettement)]. Also, the idea of ornaments as flattery runs very true with the rhetorical concept of performance of the time - I trust I don't need to go into detail on that point! Vostre tres humble, tres obeissant serviteur (; In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: *** SPAM *** Re: Printing and Binding
Dear Donatella, yes please, I would like to see what you have described. I think I have seen such examples in Venice together with glass pens from Murano and paper that looked too good to write on! I seem to remember one shop that sold minature books as 'minimal libraries' that were either free-standing or could be hung on the wall. I suppose that it would be impossible to remove all traces of today's world when seeking authenticity. When we had a six-day power cut after the storms in January I did think of playing by candle-light but I gave up in disgust as I couldnt see anything. best wishes Charles -Original Message- From: Donatella Galletti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 March 2005 21:36 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Printing and Binding Strange...I've just done it after years I had quit... I use a light folder, cut it in two A4 pieces, line them with kind of Florence paper, '500 -'600 like, glue the edges of the lined A4 to a cotton ribbon, the kind which is cut in diagonal and with two folded edges (sorry, I don't know the English name for that..and even the Italian one, but it certainly has..), fold the upper and lower external edges of the ribbon and glue them, then cut another piece and glue it on it in the inner side of the folder. I also glue cloth triangles on the angles, 8 silk light ribbons to close the book, and if I feel like, a painting of the period in the inside cover . I group the papers, I glue the edge and press it on the ribbon inside the book Done. Pattex or Uhu glue will do. I can't play Baroque or Renaissance if I see plastic around the pages.. I was thinking of putting some pictures on my website, might they be of use? Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Charles Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 8:58 PM Subject: Printing and Binding And now for something completely different! given that there is so much tablature available in downloadable form, I have found that printing and binding of A4 sheets is becoming a regular chore. I have been using plastic comb binders to complete the process, which creates a document that opens fully on the music stand, but I am going to get a thicker file professionally bound with thermal 'glue' binding. I also wondered about using professional printing services to print larger documents as my domestic printer takes hours to print in best quality, especially when I use duplex printing. What does everybody else use and are there some ideas that could be of benefit to us all? best wishes Charles To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Printing and Binding
Dear Denys, I don't think I would ever be able to read my own handwriting! but I take the point about being connected with the music. I used to use a loose-leaf folder for music that I was preparing for performance(guitar) and I still do that for choral work but my main problem, if it can be called that, is the volume of unbound tablature available. When I played the guitar most of my music was obtained from music publishers and was bound so the problem didnt arise. As people are creating Fronimo and Django files consisting of 100 pages, or more, then the loose filing systems cannot cope so well. Even the Lute Society inserts occupy quite a bit of room when collecte all together. I suppose one has to be more selective but I think it is rather like being in a sweet shop with all the 'goodies' on display. A school friend went to work for Cadbury's at Bournville in the late '50s. He was told that he could sample the chocolates from the assembly line as he would be heartily sick of them after 3 months. I met him 10 years later no longer looking as slim - 'I am still sampling the chocolates' he said. 'They taste even better now, as I know more about chocolate - making'. I would have thought that there is an opportunity for an enterprising person to provide a dedicated printing and binding service for lutenists? best wishes and we may meet at the next LS meeting Charles -Original Message- From: Denys Stephens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 March 2005 21:48 To: lute net Subject: Re: Printing and Binding Dear Charles, Years ago I used to buy music manuscript paper, hand rule an extra line on each stave and bind the pages into a hard covered manuscript book. I then copied each piece by hand into it as I learned it - I liked the sense of connection it gave me with our historical predecessors. I still have about six of these on my shelf and can tell what I was playing over the years. These days, with lots of Fronimo output I use A4 display books - 20, 40 or 60 plastic sleeves in a stiff plastic cover. They open flat. You can put pages back to back so it looks like a normal book. For performances I arrange the pieces in their running order so there's no panic looking for the next piece. There is a version of these folders that allows the individual pages to be repositioned which is handy. The only disadvantage is the reflective quality the pages have if you catch the light at the wrong angle - so you need to be careful about stage lighting when performing. I also use these folders for microfilm print outs of original sources. There is a type that allows you to put a printed insert on the spine which helps to organise everything on my music shelf. I find these ideal and would be lost without them. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Charles Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:58 PM Subject: Printing and Binding And now for something completely different! given that there is so much tablature available in downloadable form, I have found that printing and binding of A4 sheets is becoming a regular chore. I have been using plastic comb binders to complete the process, which creates a document that opens fully on the music stand, but I am going to get a thicker file professionally bound with thermal 'glue' binding. I also wondered about using professional printing services to print larger documents as my domestic printer takes hours to print in best quality, especially when I use duplex printing. What does everybody else use and are there some ideas that could be of benefit to us all? best wishes Charles To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 18/03/2005 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 18/03/2005
Woodworking question.
I want to make a mock-up of a lute neck, so I can practice while riding a bus. There'll be no strings, no pegbox, and no soundboard. Just 14 inches of neck, with some ridges glued on to represent strings, and maybe a support scheme (like a handle). My question is, what is the best way to shape the cross section of a plain old 2x4 stud to approximate a lute neck? I'd guess a small plane is the best tool, but I don't want to dump $20 for a plane and then discover some other tool would have been better. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. Stefan Lundgren's rendering (Lute Companion) reads: Do not [carelessly?] strum the strings with the right hand while studying. Best wishes, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
i.e. When first learning a piece, don't add ornaments and agrements with the right hand; first off, learn the fingerings in a simple fashion. This runs true with the nature of Gallot's other suggestions doubtless designed for beginners cannot find this, i. e. that the simple-version should be studied / practiced at first, in his advices. [in particular no. 7, where he advises to learn pieces slowly (lentement) and cleanly (nettement)]. yes, slowly -- in order to gain competence of the music as written and confidence in clear playing. Slowly does not meant without graces, does it? What I find interesting in this is that Gallot obviously had his students first learn a piece visually and only afterwards let them learn to play it. Also, the idea of ornaments as flattery runs very true with the rhetorical concept of performance of the time which doesn't mean you can forego the flattery. I think we agree that it is an integral part of the music itself. If ornamentation is signified, I think, then there is no *simple version*. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
I do however agree that it is odd Gallot focuses only on the right hand and not the left also. Perhaps you focus too much on a secondary meaning of the French word flatter. Its first meaning is to touch softly, stroke. I take Gallot' advice #5 to mean that students should keep their RH under control and avoid careless strumming in order to keep the level of mental concentration as high as possible. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Woodworking question.
11 Draw knife. Very sharp. Doesn't take very much time. Scrape to desired smoothness using a piece of broken glass. Tape the glass with duct tape where you want to hold it or tape all but the edge you're scraping with to avoid injury and breakage. Or you could just use the Norm Abram method: Buy an automatic lute neck forming tool. I'm sure such a device must exist at the New Yankee Workshop :) -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Woodworking question. I want to make a mock-up of a lute neck, so I can practice while riding a bus. There'll be no strings, no pegbox, and no soundboard. Just 14 inches of neck, with some ridges glued on to represent strings, and maybe a support scheme (like a handle). My question is, what is the best way to shape the cross section of a plain old 2x4 stud to approximate a lute neck? I'd guess a small plane is the best tool, but I don't want to dump $20 for a plane and then discover some other tool would have been better. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
See below: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] =?ISO-8859-1?b? Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i.e. When first learning a piece, don't add ornaments and agrements with the right hand; first off, learn the fingerings in a simple fashion. This runs true with the nature of Gallot's other suggestions doubtless designed for beginners cannot find this, i. e. that the simple-version should be studied / practiced at first, in his advices. Yes, this was me, not Gallot! You won't find it in the Pieces! [in particular no. 7, where he advises to learn pieces slowly (lentement) and cleanly (nettement)]. yes, slowly -- in order to gain competence of the music as written and confidence in clear playing. Slowly does not meant without graces, does it? I agree - I simply meant to interpret what Gallot had written, which does seem to imply learning simply at first, and embellishing later. What I find interesting in this is that Gallot obviously had his students first learn a piece visually and only afterwards let them learn to play it. Also, the idea of ornaments as flattery runs very true with the rhetorical concept of performance of the time which doesn't mean you can forego the flattery. I think we agree that it is an integral part of the music itself. If ornamentation is signified, I think, then there is no *simple version*. Absolutely. I was actually interpreting flattery in the sense of pleasing - not in the obsequious sense! Sorry if this did not come through! Of course agrements are indispensable to performance practice of this repertory. But one should not practice them - ideally they should be improvised in the moment, responding to each unique performance situation. Thus, to practice a piece in a relatively unornamented fashion (or more or less as it is written) does not strike me as contradictory: this is what I believe Gallot means, and what I meant by simple version. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
I bought two and sold the one that I did not like as well. THe more I hear about others' experiences with these lutes the luckier I feel to have received one of the better ones. The main problem with the Pakistani lutes is quality control. Sometimes they arrive in playable condition and sometimes not. Sure, the rose is not very elegant and the case is not exactly form fitted, but these are not problems related to the playability of the instruments. The problems I had with the lute I sold were not so much about the action, which was fine, but rather the string spacings at the nut on one of them were so bad that the courses were too close together and grouped incorrectly. Obviously, whoever made this lute had never tried to play one. I modified the nut so that the instrument was at least playable and sold it. If I had not bought two of them I would have thought that none of them was playable. I still have the other one as a backup, just so I can practice on something should my decent Tumiati lute (God forbid!) should ever need to go into the luthier shop for some reason. If I had more time to spend on the Pakistani lute that I kept, I would replace all the nylon frets with gut. I have already replaced some of the strings with Nygut. So many music projects and so little time... Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 7:01 AM To: Tim Beasley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Questions from a newbie I've heard that the cheap S. Asian (Pakistani?) lutes on ebay are trash. More trouble to make them into a lute than they're worth. I got one of those lutes. It cost me many hours of work (maybe 50-90), many trips to the hardware store, and 4-5 questions posted here to this list (for which I received generous answers). I got it into a playable condition, but I feel lucky. They are not playable as they arrive (action _way_ high, frets won't lay down against fingerboard, ...). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
Yes, perhaps you are right here. Although I am not aware of a contemporary reference to the verb flater meaning to strum. (Unless I've missed something!) As far as I know, the verb is synonymous with pincer, to pluck. In particular reference to Gallot, is there any music written by him at all that actually includes strumming per se? And in the Pieces to which his instructions pertain? I on't believe so. Thus I think Lundgren's translation of flater as strumming may be somewhat faulty. Although perhaps the essence of what you say, that Gallot is basically telling his students not to overplay, is more to the mark. Best, Benjamin In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] =?ISO-8859-1?b? Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do however agree that it is odd Gallot focuses only on the right hand and not the left also. Perhaps you focus too much on a secondary meaning of the French word flatter. Its first meaning is to touch softly, stroke. I take Gallot' advice #5 to mean that students should keep their RH under control and avoid careless strumming in order to keep the level of mental concentration as high as possible. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
But one should not practice them - ideally they should be improvised in the moment, responding to each unique performance situation. That applies, I suppose, to the Italian manners, rather than to the French. Improvisation is confined, though. For both kinds or embellishments one needs training of *taste*, i. e. experience of where to and how to. Thus, to practice a piece in a relatively unornamented fashion (or more or less as it is written) does not strike me as contradictory okay, let me put it another way. We probably agree, that French ornament signs are abbreviations of fixed formulae that are supposed to be applied in certain ways. Gallots explains his ornament signs on the very next page after his general playing advices. Sometimes, you can find certain ornaments written out, e. g. there are manuscript versions of pieces that have the separees written out instead of the vertical chords with strokes between the letters. (Andreas Schlegel's article on the Rhetorique des Dieux is a treasure of insights reagarding this.) Anyway, they are not graces that can possibly be added when players feel like adding them, or be left out when players feel like leaving them out. Just the opposite, they're an integral part of the music and cannot be omitted. In French baroque lute music, there is no relatively unornamented fashion to play a piece. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
In particular reference to Gallot, is there any music written by him at all that actually includes strumming per se? And in the Pieces to which his instructions pertain? Gallot has a special sign resembling a T which is put below chords pour frapper deux chordes du pouce ensemble ou separement, i. e. to strike two courses with your thumb together or separated. Can be more than two, though. Besides normal three-notes-chord without any sign, there are places where he has chords of three or more notes on adjacent courses with this sign, e. g. in my favourite courant La Cygogne in bars 7 and 9, and elsewhere. Playing a chord ensemble with your thumb can also be called strumming, can't it? Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
I think I agree with everything you say. Just to clarify, all that I wrote above was specifically meant as an attempt to interpret Gallot's statement in his 'advis' - it is purely within that context that my comments are to be read. (i.e. I was not in general discourse about this repertoire, but rather acting interpretively in order to understand Gallot's comment.) Thus, I fully agree when you say that in French baroque lute music, there is no relatively unornamented fashion to play a piece. Indeed much of the music as written is practically ornamental in structure; but one can certainly refrain from adding even more agrements to repeats, etc. But due to Gallot's comment it would seem that he appears to have meant for amateurs to reduce ornamentation (if one takes the meaning of the verb flater to mean ornament/embellishment/agrement, as I did) in the early stages of learning a piece. But thanks for the Lundgren translation; just out of curiousity, where is it from? Best back, Benjamin In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] =?ISO-8859-1?b? Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But one should not practice them - ideally they should be improvised in the moment, responding to each unique performance situation. That applies, I suppose, to the Italian manners, rather than to the French. Improvisation is confined, though. For both kinds or embellishments one needs training of *taste*, i. e. experience of where to and how to. Thus, to practice a piece in a relatively unornamented fashion (or more or less as it is written) does not strike me as contradictory okay, let me put it another way. We probably agree, that French ornament signs are abbreviations of fixed formulae that are supposed to be applied in certain ways. Gallots explains his ornament signs on the very next page after his general playing advices. Sometimes, you can find certain ornaments written out, e. g. there are manuscript versions of pieces that have the separees written out instead of the vertical chords with strokes between the letters. (Andreas Schlegel's article on the Rhetorique des Dieux is a treasure of insights reagarding this.) Anyway, they are not graces that can possibly be added when players feel like adding them, or be left out when players feel like leaving them out. Just the opposite, they're an integral part of the music and cannot be omitted. In French baroque lute music, there is no relatively unornamented fashion to play a piece. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] =?ISO-8859-1?b? Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But one should not practice them - ideally they should be improvised in the moment, responding to each unique performance situation. That applies, I suppose, to the Italian manners, rather than to the French. Improvisation is confined, though. For both kinds or embellishments one needs training of *taste*, i. e. experience of where to and how to. Thus, to practice a piece in a relatively unornamented fashion (or more or less as it is written) does not strike me as contradictory okay, let me put it another way. We probably agree, that French ornament signs are abbreviations of fixed formulae that are supposed to be applied in certain ways. Gallots explains his ornament signs on the very next page after his general playing advices. Sometimes, you can find certain ornaments written out, e. g. there are manuscript versions of pieces that have the separees written out instead of the vertical chords with strokes between the letters. (Andreas Schlegel's article on the Rhetorique des Dieux is a treasure of insights reagarding this.) Anyway, they are not graces that can possibly be added when players feel like adding them, or be left out when players feel like leaving them out. Just the opposite, they're an integral part of the music and cannot be omitted. In French baroque lute music, there is no relatively unornamented fashion to play a piece. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
Hmmm, perhaps. I have always viewed that thumb sign as more of a carry through stroke, a kind of double (or triple) pluck - not a strum per se. For me, at least, a strum is really more akin to what is done on a baroque guitar, something that uses several strings (at least 3 anyway to make a chord) by necessity, often acting more a percussive unit than a subtle fingering. But I am happy to see what you mean, and can certainly put this down more to categorisation than anything musical. Best, Benjamin In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] =?ISO-8859-1?b? Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In particular reference to Gallot, is there any music written by him at all that actually includes strumming per se? And in the Pieces to which his instructions pertain? Gallot has a special sign resembling a T which is put below chords pour frapper deux chordes du pouce ensemble ou separement, i. e. to strike two courses with your thumb together or separated. Can be more than two, though. Besides normal three-notes-chord without any sign, there are places where he has chords of three or more notes on adjacent courses with this sign, e. g. in my favourite courant La Cygogne in bars 7 and 9, and elsewhere. Playing a chord ensemble with your thumb can also be called strumming, can't it? Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] =?ISO-8859-1?b? Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In particular reference to Gallot, is there any music written by him at all that actually includes strumming per se? And in the Pieces to which his instructions pertain? Gallot has a special sign resembling a T which is put below chords pour frapper deux chordes du pouce ensemble ou separement, i. e. to strike two courses with your thumb together or separated. Can be more than two, though. Besides normal three-notes-chord without any sign, there are places where he has chords of three or more notes on adjacent courses with this sign, e. g. in my favourite courant La Cygogne in bars 7 and 9, and elsewhere. Playing a chord ensemble with your thumb can also be called strumming, can't it? Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
Stefan Lundgren published a huge work for (11-course) baroque lute, the baroque lute companion which has some 200 pieces in increasing difficulty level for each of the most used keys along with an introduction into baroque lute playing quoting several of the main sources. Very recommendable! Thomas Am Montag, 28. März 2005 21:53 schrieb Benjamin Narvey: But thanks for the Lundgren translation; just out of curiousity, where is it from? Best back, Benjamin -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
kingham case web site
The kingham web site seems to have gone off line a few days ago. When I attempt to go to http://www.kingham.co.uk/ I receive a page not found error. Google only returns the same link that I have. Does anyone know more about this? Thank you, Mark Jacobs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
But thanks for the Lundgren translation; just out of curiousity, where is it from? Stefan has edited a wonderful very large collection of baroque lute pieces which he has called The Lute Companion. I guess he still sells it, and it's worth its price. http://www.luteonline.de/lundgren-edition/companion.htm Best wishes, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: kingham case web site
This has historically happened to them. I can imagine they are doing work on the web page. ed At 09:45 PM 3/28/2005 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The kingham web site seems to have gone off line a few days ago. When I attempt to go to http://www.kingham.co.uk/ I receive a page not found error. Google only returns the same link that I have. Does anyone know more about this? Thank you, Mark Jacobs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
RE: Woodworking question.
Herbert, I recommend putting strings on it to give your right hand something to do and to make the practice more realistic. Without strings, your practice will lack auditory and tactile feedback, which means that you may practice something that is incorrect without knowing it. You could copy the design of the practice travel guitars that have no sound hole or resonating chamber, but put more strings on to simulate your actual lute. Since you probably care more about simplicity than authenticity with this application, you could put tuners like the ones found on harps and keyboard instruments. They might be easier to install than guitar machine tuners. In any case, good luck to you and let us know how your practice lute simulator works out. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 9:25 AM To: 'Herbert Ward' [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: Woodworking question. 11 Draw knife. Very sharp. Doesn't take very much time. Scrape to desired smoothness using a piece of broken glass. Tape the glass with duct tape where you want to hold it or tape all but the edge you're scraping with to avoid injury and breakage. Or you could just use the Norm Abram method: Buy an automatic lute neck forming tool. I'm sure such a device must exist at the New Yankee Workshop :) -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Woodworking question. I want to make a mock-up of a lute neck, so I can practice while riding a bus. There'll be no strings, no pegbox, and no soundboard. Just 14 inches of neck, with some ridges glued on to represent strings, and maybe a support scheme (like a handle). My question is, what is the best way to shape the cross section of a plain old 2x4 stud to approximate a lute neck? I'd guess a small plane is the best tool, but I don't want to dump $20 for a plane and then discover some other tool would have been better. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: kingham case web site
Mark, If you need to conatact Kingam Case urgently, I can look for Bob Kingham's email and send it to you. Please let me know. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 1:45 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: kingham case web site The kingham web site seems to have gone off line a few days ago. When I attempt to go to http://www.kingham.co.uk/ I receive a page not found error. Google only returns the same link that I have. Does anyone know more about this? Thank you, Mark Jacobs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Gallot speaks...
Dear Bernd, According to my Harrap's Standard French and English Dictionary, flatter la corde means to caress the string, to play with expression. I think what Gallot is saying is that we should learn a piece of music absolutely as it is written - in a mechanical way, exactly in time, and without any sort of expression. Once we have got all the notes safely learned, we can start playing with them, bending the time if we think it is appropriate to do so, and so on. A common mistake - and guitarists and lute players are the worst offenders - is to start playing expressively too soon. They learn a piece in one particular way, often with the rhythm all over the place, and once they have learned it, they cannot deviate from that particular interpretation. A good performance will have freedom of expression, but that freedom and flexibility cannot be achieved without first learning the piece properly in the first place. I think I'd translate Gallot's advice as, Don't try playing with expression when you are learning a piece, so that you are better able to master it. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: Gallot speaks... Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Woodworking question.
I agree, without the strings you will get no feel for where the fingers are going or the back pressure you have to contend with. Frankly though, I think your problem is greater than that. One of the difficulties with the Lute is support of the neck without use of the left hand for that function. Without the rest of the instrument I don't as yet have a clue how you are going to simulate that nifty little problem. I can picture you holding the neck assembly with the right hand while you finger the left hand work but in truth the whole thing comes down to co-coordinating both hands together so they more or less function as one. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Herbert Ward' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:03 PM Subject: RE: Woodworking question. Herbert, I recommend putting strings on it to give your right hand something to do and to make the practice more realistic. Without strings, your practice will lack auditory and tactile feedback, which means that you may practice something that is incorrect without knowing it. You could copy the design of the practice travel guitars that have no sound hole or resonating chamber, but put more strings on to simulate your actual lute. Since you probably care more about simplicity than authenticity with this application, you could put tuners like the ones found on harps and keyboard instruments. They might be easier to install than guitar machine tuners. In any case, good luck to you and let us know how your practice lute simulator works out. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 9:25 AM To: 'Herbert Ward' [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: Woodworking question. 11 Draw knife. Very sharp. Doesn't take very much time. Scrape to desired smoothness using a piece of broken glass. Tape the glass with duct tape where you want to hold it or tape all but the edge you're scraping with to avoid injury and breakage. Or you could just use the Norm Abram method: Buy an automatic lute neck forming tool. I'm sure such a device must exist at the New Yankee Workshop :) -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Woodworking question. I want to make a mock-up of a lute neck, so I can practice while riding a bus. There'll be no strings, no pegbox, and no soundboard. Just 14 inches of neck, with some ridges glued on to represent strings, and maybe a support scheme (like a handle). My question is, what is the best way to shape the cross section of a plain old 2x4 stud to approximate a lute neck? I'd guess a small plane is the best tool, but I don't want to dump $20 for a plane and then discover some other tool would have been better. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Questions from a newbie In defence of the EMS lute
Dear Tim I purchased a renaissance lute, already built, from the Early Music Shop last November. As far as I know, it was built in the UK. I ordered it in June 2004 and it was not ready until November. It was relatively cheap as lutes go, but it is perfectly alright for me as a beginner. In fact, I think it is good value for money, and everyone who has seen it thinks it is a beautiful instrument. It came in a hard case, not fancy, but it does the job, and the lute had travelled in it safely to Australia. Also, as I have so little time because I concentrate on classical guitar, it would have been wasteful for me to spend more money on a lute. In any case, I just didn't have a lot to spend. There are other priorities such as the mortgage, household bills, food, schooling for my daughter etc. I am absolutely unable to spend a lot on musical instruments, however much I might want to. If you have the money to spend on a more expensive lute, go ahead. As I said, I wasn't in a position to do that, and I do think people can be over quick to criticise cheaper instruments. There are lutes made by different workshops also available from the Early Music Shop. You can visit their lute catalogue on line at http://www.e-m-s.com/cat/stringinstruments/lutes/lute.htm Regards Caroline Caroline Chamberlain BSc (Hons) Scientific Officer Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology School of Molecular and Microbial Sciences University of Queensland Brisbane QLD 4072 Tel: + 61 7 3365 4606 Fax: + 61 7 3365 4699 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
I've always been curious about the aspect of memorization in lute music. In this paragraph Gallot seems to suggest it. Baron advises to memorize in the beginning stages of learning, but then goes on to say he's not recommending it ( don't have the book handy). Sterling Price, has visited a few times, and I was shocked, at how well he can sight read, and says this is what everyone does. Up to that point, I had two, and working on three, Weiss Sonatas completely memorized. This for me, not being a professional performer, was allot of RAM to store. Since that time I have been only sight reading, but then this seems to have it's own short comings as well. Is there a middle ground. Could this aspect of memorization be a result of the lute being frozen in time, whilst the rest of the musical world went on to fancy memorization ? Michael Thames Robert Barto told me he tends to memorize when learning a piece. I think this is the best approach. After you learn a piece you can go on to really memorize it or play from tab, where the tab just reminds you of how it goes. One of the biggest mistakes people make, according to a video I watched about memorization, is that they work on too large a chunk at one time. When I'm learning a piece, I find that I should just work on a phrase and get it in my ear and fingers and concentrate on playing lightly and musically. This means taking a small enough chunk and playing it by memory while I look at my fingers and analyze what is going on. It's hard work. It is much easier to sight read. I find practicing in this way takes a tremendous amount of self discipline. I'm not saying that this is the correct way to practice. I'm just saying that, for me, I know I should do it this way because I tend to damage my hands if I get caught up in sight reading. It is so easy to get lost in a suite and then when you finish, realize you've been playing for an hour without a break. my 2 ¥ -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
loaded gut strings
Hi, Who has experience with these 'loaded gut' strings from Aquila? Some say they are already false when received but how often is this experienced. And what density is used for this string to calculate diameters? Should be something like 2.3 times the gut density but not sure about it. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Some people memorize music by remembering what the sheet music (whether staff notation or tab) looks like on the printed page. I once played a concert with a musician who memorized music this way. Until then, I would never have thought to use this technique. I memorize music by automatically forming acoustic images of how it sounds (or how I would like it to sound if I have not heard or played it yet.) It is as though I had recorded it and downloaded it into my mind - clear, vivid and inesacapable. I have hundreds if not thousands of these acoustic images on tap and can recall passages of any piece and compare them to passages of other pieces.(It is great for style analysis, but that is a different subject.) I can edit them to include different instruments or voices, and play them faster or slower than I have heard them, all because the images are mental. 95% of this is automatic and effortless. All I have to do is keep listening to or playing a piece and I will memorize it whether I intend to do so or not. If I am playing a piece I can memorize 100% of it with little to no effort. If I am listening to it, sometimes I get stuck on a passage and then I have to work at the remaining 5% of the task, but once I clear the obstacle, it is clear sailing again. Since I memorize acoustic images, I can play a piece of music on any instrument on which I am proficient, provided the instrument has the necessary range. If not, I can develop a version that more or less works but may be technically difficult to play. Of course, there is a tradeoff for this ability. For me, memorizing is like flying a jet and sight reading a new piece is like riding on a snail. I am learning tab by looking at it when I am playing what I have memorized, just to associate the written notation with how it sounds. However, if the wind blows the music off of my stand I could continue playing as though nothing happened. I would be interested to know if anyone has seen a study of different methods that musicians use to memorize music. Such a study would be quite interesting indeed. Best to all, Marion -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 8:29 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... I've always been curious about the aspect of memorization in lute music. In this paragraph Gallot seems to suggest it. Baron advises to memorize in the beginning stages of learning, but then goes on to say he's not recommending it ( don't have the book handy). Sterling Price, has visited a few times, and I was shocked, at how well he can sight read, and says this is what everyone does. Up to that point, I had two, and working on three, Weiss Sonatas completely memorized. This for me, not being a professional performer, was allot of RAM to store. Since that time I have been only sight reading, but then this seems to have it's own short comings as well. Is there a middle ground. Could this aspect of memorization be a result of the lute being frozen in time, whilst the rest of the musical world went on to fancy memorization ? Michael Thames Robert Barto told me he tends to memorize when learning a piece. I think this is the best approach. After you learn a piece you can go on to really memorize it or play from tab, where the tab just reminds you of how it goes. One of the biggest mistakes people make, according to a video I watched about memorization, is that they work on too large a chunk at one time. When I'm learning a piece, I find that I should just work on a phrase and get it in my ear and fingers and concentrate on playing lightly and musically. This means taking a small enough chunk and playing it by memory while I look at my fingers and analyze what is going on. It's hard work. It is much easier to sight read. I find practicing in this way takes a tremendous amount of self discipline. I'm not saying that this is the correct way to practice. I'm just saying that, for me, I know I should do it this way because I tend to damage my hands if I get caught up in sight reading. It is so easy to get lost in a suite and then when you finish, realize you've been playing for an hour without a break. my 2 ¥ -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gallot speaks...
-Original Message- From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 5:09 PM To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Gallot speaks... Dear Bernd, According to my Harrap's Standard French and English Dictionary, flatter la corde means to caress the string, to play with expression. I think what Gallot is saying is that we should learn a piece of music absolutely as it is written - in a mechanical way, exactly in time, and without any sort of expression. Once we have got all the notes safely learned, we can start playing with them, bending the time if we think it is appropriate to do so, and so on. ++This interpretation makes the most logical sense. However, I am puzzled as to why Gallot applied the principle only to the right hand. A common mistake - and guitarists and lute players are the worst offenders - is to start playing expressively too soon. ++This style of playing is called troppo espressivo. Some singers use this style too and it drives the accompanist nuts. They learn a piece in one particular way, often with the rhythm all over the place, and once they have learned it, they cannot deviate from that particular interpretation. ++This style of playing is called troppo rubato and if the accompanist uses this style it will drive the singer nuts. A good performance will have freedom of expression, but that freedom and flexibility cannot be achieved without first learning the piece properly in the first place. ++It is not always so much fun to play a piece or a passage 500 times (corrrectly, that is) but it pays off in the performance. Moreover it is much more enjoyable to play a piece that has been learned to this extent. I think I'd translate Gallot's advice as, Don't try playing with expression when you are learning a piece, so that you are better able to master it. ++Basically, what he is saying, crawl before you walk and walk before you run, or else you will trip over something. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: Gallot speaks... Happy Easter, in the beginning of his Pièces de Luth Composées sur differens Modes... Gallot gives a short Méthode qu'il faut observer pour jouer prprement du luth in 9 rules. They should be important, I thougth and tried to read them. Well, ... Could somebody please help me and explain the meaning of: 5. Ne flater pas les cordes de la main droite lors qu'on estudie pour s'en rendre mieux le maistre. ? :-) Thank you very much. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
