'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Thank you Daniel. So, as I understand it, the sole piece of HISTORICAL evidence is from Vincenzo Galilei's 'Fromino Dialogo' (1568,1584) translated by MacClintock (AIM 1985) as: ..Now I come to the matter of 'tastini' which lately some people seek to introduce to remove some of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to persuade those who are more foolish than they) MacClintock goes on to say that he later 'points out that those using 'tastini' do not know much about thoery'. (Incidentally I can't find the original Italian quotes in my copy of the 1584 book - have you any source page numbers?) In short, the ONLY piece of historical evidence for 'tastini' seems to be a passing reference in the pedagogic writings of Galilei who himself eschews their use and mentions that some foolish and ignorant people 'seek'' to introduce them: - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for their adoption in modern times. And particularly so considering that when other early sources write about fretting they signally fail to mention these extra little frets (eg Dowland 'Varietie') and they is no trace of them in contemporary iconography. If anybody else has other HISTORICAL evidence, I'd be grateful for it. rgds Martyn ' Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday, April 04, 2005, at 12:57PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Would someone kindly remind me of all the historical evidence for ''tastini', for their actual widespread use and examples of any iconography depicting them. I can only refer to what others have said: http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/lgs/meantone.html http://www.luteshop.fsnet.co.uk/tuning.htm http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/fronimo.html Some professional players use them: http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/Heringman.html (both my teachers, Pat O'Brien and David Dolata do) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Dear Martyn and all On Tuesday 05 April 2005 12:20, Martyn Hodgson wrote: So, as I understand it, the sole piece of HISTORICAL evidence is from Vincenzo Galilei's 'Fromino Dialogo' (1568,1584) translated by MacClintock (AIM 1985) as: ..Now I come to the matter of 'tastini' which lately some people seek to introduce to remove some of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to persuade those who are more foolish than they) MacClintock goes on to say that he later 'points out that those using 'tastini' do not know much about thoery'. (Incidentally I can't find the original Italian quotes in my copy of the 1584 book - have you any source page numbers?) Just a small correction, if you have used as source my page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/fronimo.html There the comments in brackets [ ] are mine, not MacClintock's! So you should not blame him of my text: [Then he points out that those using the tastini do not know much about theory, they just want to hear 'marvels'.] The comments in paranthesis should be Galilei's. I think you should find MacClintock's translation in a good music library. I do not remember, did he give the page numbers of the original book. I can check it in the evening at home. By the way, every lutenist, in the MacClintock's edition all the tabulatures are in facsimile! An easy source of important lute music! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Tuner Recommendations
I own an Intellitouch tuner and found it next to useless with my lute. Re: Ronn's tuner. He may have had something like the Intellitouch tuner clamped on the peg head. A quick search on eBay for 'lute tuner' in musical instruments should get you a look at it. It would surprise me if WoodWind BrassWind didn't have some of these, too. Cheers, Steve timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also have a Korg CA30 and have found it to be quite satisfactory and within my price range. I bought a clip-on pickup that plugs into the input jack on the tuner, which I've found to be very helpful, especially when my teacher and I are tuning up right before a lesson. The tuner no longer picks up his lute when I'm trying to tune mine. I just clip the pickup on the peg-head, although it works equally well if I just clip onto a peg key. The CA30s are cheap enough that I will probably buy a second one to keep in the case with my new lute when it's finished. I remember at the 2002 LSA conference sitting slightly behind and to the side of Ronn McFarlane as he performed (it was a packed room) and seeing red lights blinking on the back of the peg-head of his lute. It took me a bit to figure it out, but he must have had a very compact tuner attached to or embedded in the peg head, which I thought was really cool. I wonder what kind it was? Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Tuner Recommendations Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Hi Rob, I have three Korg CA 30 tuners-- one in my trumpet gig bag, one in my horn case, and one for the lutes. I've found them less susceptible than some of the others, (particularly, I believe, my quick tune), to harmonic spoofing. Its range runs from C1 to C8. It's among the smallest at about 60mm wide, 103mm long, and 15mm thick. It will calibrate from at least A=415 to A=460 and has a standard 1/4 inch jack in which you can plug a tuner pickup. It will also give you a tone for an A or a Bb. Finally, it's among the least expensive of the bunch at about USD 20 here in the States. A good source for them can be found at www.wwbw.com. That's The Woodwind The Brasswind, a large music store in northern Indiana. You can search on Korg CA30 in the upper left hand corner of their home page. You can also read reviews by folks who've bought these tuners. Most seem to have given it a five (out of five) star rating. Best regards, Steve Ramey Ramon Marco de Sevilla wrote: What tuners have you had experience with or would you recommend? Korg, Arion, Sabine? Thanks! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
Before inventing new ways of holding an instrument, it's useful to look at what early players actually did. For the lute the following come to mind: - Iconography depicting extended peghead lutes (ie theorboes, archlutes, late german baroque lutes) frequently shows the use of a ribbon/strap running from the base to an attachment point on the rear of the peghead eg from Castaldi (1622) right up to Scheidler(c1800). Most extant early instruments of this type also have attachment points (buttons/slotted fittings). - Many later baroque lutes have two buttons: one at the base and one on the back close to the neck. It has been suggested (Spence) that a chord was passed between the two and looped around a coat button (early coats were much heavier/stiffer than modern). I seen gut strings fastened on a few 18thC lutes but, of course, these cld be later additions. To be frank, I've tried this method and have not been happy with the results - has anybosy else? - rest the lute against a table ( early sources and some iconography) - this also assists the resonance of the instrument (rather like Aguado's 'tripodion'). Finally, it seems to me that most (not all) depictions of lute players show the instrument being held fairly high ie against the lower chest rather than the stomach (rather akin to the flamenco guitarist position compared to that of a modern 'classical' guitarist) with the body resting on the left thigh rather than in the lap. A holding arrangement should allow for this position and posture. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
- hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for their adoption in modern times. No, the case for their adoption in modern times is getting an F# instead of a Gb and a C# instead of a Db in meantone tuning! For that, I am willing to have Gallilei's ghost stare dissaprovingly at me. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
You say that as though the problem were with JW and not RT JM On 4/4/05 5:36 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I here John Williams once again delivered the goods last night in San Francisco. Opening with six of his own pieces, with an, on the end of your seat, flawless rendition of the Chaconne. At 64 that's amazing. Two sold out concerts at Herbst theater, anyone catch that one? I catch JW on the radio once in a while. To this day I cannot figure out what's the big deal about this dude RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv PS I 'm told there wasn't a hint of sheet music to be seen. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
You say that as though the problem were with JW and not RT JM In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/4/05 5:36 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I here John Williams once again delivered the goods last night in San Francisco. Opening with six of his own pieces, with an, on the end of your seat, flawless rendition of the Chaconne. At 64 that's amazing. Two sold out concerts at Herbst theater, anyone catch that one? I catch JW on the radio once in a while. To this day I cannot figure out what's the big deal about this dude RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv PS I 'm told there wasn't a hint of sheet music to be seen. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Weiss - Lorimer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Something strange about my letter; I wrote Lorimer, yet the forward spells it's Lorimar. What's up? James I don't know the same thing happened to me, did you get a scolding from Roman yet? Michael Thames I've known Michael Lorimer for over 25 years, he's a great scholar and muscian. I like to think I have a sense of humour, but I guess I'm missing the point about misspelling the man's name. James So do I. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
-Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 6:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Michael, Regarding Williams's memorization act: how many instruments and tunings does he perform on on a regular basis? (Koyunbaba doesn't count.) Chris Well this is really the most beautiful part of a John Williams concert, or for that matter any concert, isn't it. His ability to perform flawlessly from memory where everything is perfected to the T. A rare event. ++I have always enjoyed John Williams. From my own experience I have no problem going back and forth to different instruments and playing from memory. I've heard others do though. ++It all goes back to the different ways people memorize music. If you memorize how it sounds you can go back and forth between many different instuments, just as long as you practice them often enough to remember how to make each sound. If you memorzie music by thinking of only the physical configuration of your hands, you will have trouble with the changing from one tuning to another. This whole idea of playing from sheet music is fine, but I believe a total fabrication of the 20 th century lutenist's. I keep hearing the reason for this is grounded in the fact that thesedays everyone plays 15 different instruments. ++I do not buy this argument, but then again I memorize music with less difficulty than many others. In the past this was not a problem was it? wWere does one find a tradition of this? As I said before it seems that more historical methods suggest memorization. ++Sheet music is fine for people who either can't or don't want to memorize. In the past, paper and even parchment were not as readily available and cost more to produce. Those on the border line between reading and memorizing chose to save money by memorizing music. It is much more fun to play that way, assuming that you can. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Michael, Regarding Williams's memorization act: how many instruments and tunings does he perform on on a regular basis? (Koyunbaba doesn't count.) Chris --- Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I heard that some people use a silk ribbon tied to the pegbox. and simply sit on the other end Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:19 PM Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Rob, So far, I have not heard of a strap button pulling out of a lute. However, I have heard of a strap button damaging a guitar that was checked into the airlines. It was not packed correctly and the luggage handliers set it down hard on the button end. The button shifted into the instrument and cracks developed. Other than that story I have not heard any disadvantages of a strap button, only advantages. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:50 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Strap Buttons Are lutes built strongly enough to handle strap buttons? I have a hard time keeping my lute stable on my lap and am thinking a strap may help (or velcro!). Thanks! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Re: Newbie Question #2
We could have some form of French tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on this. Gary - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you mean that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word We I stand corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of what it is we do. What you mean we, white man? ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I guess I just don't understand music - thank you for the council. JM On 4/5/05 8:12 AM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You say that as though the problem were with JW and not RT JM In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/4/05 5:36 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I here John Williams once again delivered the goods last night in San Francisco. Opening with six of his own pieces, with an, on the end of your seat, flawless rendition of the Chaconne. At 64 that's amazing. Two sold out concerts at Herbst theater, anyone catch that one? I catch JW on the radio once in a while. To this day I cannot figure out what's the big deal about this dude RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv PS I 'm told there wasn't a hint of sheet music to be seen. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
-Original Message- From: Bob Purrenhage [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 8:47 PM To: Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Modest person that I am, I only managed to send this to one person the first time rather than the whole list: I think one of the chief advantages of a strap is the ability to play while standing or sitting on almost any seat with the same consistent posture - no need to cross legs or hunch over the instrument. ++If you have evern gotten up after a long practic session and found that one of your legs does not work the way it should you will appreciate this aspect of posture. Wide fabric ribbons or bands work well. You can put a series of button holes in the ends to allow adjustment as your girth increases ++This also works if you want to use the same strap with different-sized instruments. (by the addition of sweaters in colder months, of course). ++Move to California or Hawaii. We don't do winter. :) Bob Purrenhage Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Michael Thames wrote: Michael, Regarding Williams's memorization act: how many instruments and tunings does he perform on on a regular basis? (Koyunbaba doesn't count.) Chris Well this is really the most beautiful part of a John Williams concert, or for that matter any concert, isn't it. His ability to perform flawlessly from memory where everything is perfected to the T. A rare event. From my own experience I have no problem going back and forth to different instruments and playing from memory. I've heard others do though. This whole idea of playing from sheet music is fine, but I believe a total fabrication of the 20 th century lutenist's. I keep hearing the reason for this is grounded in the fact that thesedays everyone plays 15 different instruments. In the past this was not a problem was it? wWere does one find a tradition of this? As I said before it seems that more historical methods suggest memorization. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Michael, Regarding Williams's memorization act: how many instruments and tunings does he perform on on a regular basis? (Koyunbaba doesn't count.) Chris --- Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I heard that some people use a silk ribbon tied to the pegbox. and simply sit on the other end Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:19 PM Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Rob, So far, I have not heard of a strap button pulling out of a lute. However, I have heard of a strap button damaging a guitar that was checked into the airlines. It was not packed correctly and the luggage handliers set it down hard on the button end. The button shifted into the instrument and cracks developed. Other than that story I have not heard any disadvantages of a strap button, only advantages. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:50 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Strap Buttons Are lutes built strongly enough to handle strap buttons? I have a hard time keeping my lute stable on my lap and am thinking a strap may help (or velcro!). Thanks! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ --
Re: Willams Concert
I guess I just don't understand music - thank you for the councEl. JM You are welcome. BTW, I am not disputing that JW is a great player; undoubtedly he is. However he is not a musician. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/5/05 8:12 AM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You say that as though the problem were with JW and not RT JM In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/4/05 5:36 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I here John Williams once again delivered the goods last night in San Francisco. Opening with six of his own pieces, with an, on the end of your seat, flawless rendition of the Chaconne. At 64 that's amazing. Two sold out concerts at Herbst theater, anyone catch that one? I catch JW on the radio once in a while. To this day I cannot figure out what's the big deal about this dude RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv PS I 'm told there wasn't a hint of sheet music to be seen. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
A uniform weight distribution could be achieved by a new design that would have half of the tuners at one end and half at the other like we have seen on some practice guitars and some unusual instruments, the Stossel lute being one of them (not sure of spelling the name). Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 5, 2005 3:58 AM To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 We could have some form of French tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on this. Gary - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you mean that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word We I stand corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of what it is we do. What you mean we, white man? ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Williams Concert
Sounds like a spell checker gone awry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Willams Concert Something strange about my letter; I wrote Lorimer, yet the forward spells it's Lorimar. What's up? James To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
Dear Chris, Thank you for posting. Please see my comments below. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 5:32 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Marion, I don't know about your guitar, but every lute I've played is about 50% lighter than any guitar I've ever played. ++Yes, all of my 8 guitars are heavier than any of my lutes.. Guitars need to be heavier because the strings have higher tension than on lutes. I am not an expert on ouds but I seem to remember that the time I played one it was heavier than ren or baroque lutes. Even with wooden pegs, the pegbox is already by far the heaviest component of the lute. The prospect of adding any more weight makes my back sore just thinking of it. ++Please see a later message about this. My idea is to come up with a totally new design that addresses all the problems of tuning, weight, etc. This design would have half of the tuners at one end and half at the other end to balance the weight. There is another tread going on now about strap buttons in which people have shared ideas about how best to utilize this. Using a strap can make a difference in terms of the ergonomics of the situation. I think it is too hard for some people to hold up the neck of a long lute and this is the reason for the strap. You also could use the strap with a newly designed instrument with tuning machines. By now, the purists are sufficiently horrified but we must remember that today's crazy idea is tomorrow's implementation. It is perhaps not unrelated, but when I took violin lessons, the first thing my teacher told me to do was remove the fine tuners from my instrument, claiming that it effected the tone. ++Interesting that your teacher thought this. Maybe this has been a problem for some people but my uncle was a very good violinist using a very good (read expensive) violin. He used the fine tuners with out any problems. Whereas the violin is not my specialty by any means, perhaps it matters more on some instruments than on others. I don't remember any tone problems, but then my uncle played much better than I did (read past tense.) My ear wasn't exactly accustomed to the minutae of violin tone at the time, (probably a good thing to spare me from the full impact of the wretched tone I managed to produce) ++I had to laugh a this one. We who have attempted the violin have all had experiences like this, so you are in good company! Back in the days when I played 4c mandolin more often than I do now, I would pick up a violin every now and then and 'fiddle' around with it. Other than differences like the ones between D sharp and E flat, the left hand is about the same as on a mandolin. I actually managed to play some tunes that you could recognize. What I missed most about the violin was the plucked aspect of the strings, which is a technique that can be used but it is not the usual one. but it did seem to me that the sound improved. Not only that, but since I didn't rely on the fine tuners as a crutch, I eventually became able to tune much faster and just as accurately. ++There are two aspects here. One, you have only four strings so even if each is a hassle and a pain in the neck, at least you will be done relatively quickly. Even on a ren lute, you are not even half way done after four strings. The other aspect is how did you measure the tuning? Were you using the kind of tuner that tells you how many cents off the pitch is? By trial and error you eventually can hit the correct pitch but it just takes longer. The better tuning you want the longer it takes. With the fine tuners, you can cut down on the tuning time and use the remaining time for other things, like accompanying a beautiful mezzo soprano voice on the lute. :) Chris --- Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Chris, I see no disadvantage with the very slight added weight My 11-string guitar has 11 metal tuning machines and I have no trouble holding it for long periods of time. In any case, you could always get a strap or a piece of silk if it became a problem. It is a very small price to pay for great efficiency, linearity in pitch vs. angle, and exactness of pitch without a big hassle and worry about environmental changes. As for bowed strings, I don't know about your violins, but mine have small machine tuners at the loop end of the strings. You can install them very easily and coarse tune with the pegs. To get the fine tuning, you use the machines. The fact that these machine tuners are readily available is proof positive that the pegs don't work very well at all, especially for the short diapasons of violins. If lutes had them we would not have so much trouble tuning. However, we all are in this long-term worship service of historical accuracy
Re: Williams Concert
Sounds like a spell checker gone awry More like sel-preservation instinct gone awry RT -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Willams Concert Something strange about my letter; I wrote Lorimer, yet the forward spells it's Lorimar. What's up? James To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
-Original Message- From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 5:12 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: So far, I have not heard of a strap button pulling out of a lute. It happens all the time, since they're typically put in like tuning pegs, held by friction. This has nothing to do with the strength of the instrument, of course. ++Maybe this is one reason why some people sit on the other end of the strap or silk, attaching the strap to the peg end only. I don't use a strap on a lute so I have not bothered to find out what happens when you pull on the strap button. (Famous last words: What does this button do?) In case anyone reading this is not aware of it, this was a joke. I see no disadvantage with the very slight added weight My 11-string guitar has 11 metal tuning machines and I have no trouble holding it for long periods of time. If the rest of your 11-string guitar were as light as a lute, you might have a problem with balance. ++See a later posting about balancing the weight by a new design in which half of the tuners are at one end and the other half are at the opposite end. It depends on what kind of problem you want. All tuning systems have their advantages and their disadvantages. I would rather have the tuning machines and find another way to solve the problem with weight distribution than to spend an inordinate amount of time tuning. The tuning challenge is worse for short string lengths than with the longer strings for obvious physical reasons. As for bowed strings, I don't know about your violins, but mine have small machine tuners at the loop end of the strings. Fine tuners are common on student violins. ++I have two violins, both with fine tuners. One of them is not worth a huge amount of money and I suppose you could call it a student violin. The second one is a fine concert instrument made in 1836. I would not go out and buy one like this and would not have it except that it has been in my family for generations. I have received offers to buy it from violinists who have not even seen it. It is not exactly what you would give a student to play. The bow alone is worth more than some lutes. H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
I think it is time to stop beating that dead donkey back to life. This has been tried many times, with the results of eye-sore harmful to one's left shoulder. Google it up. And enough already. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv A uniform weight distribution could be achieved by a new design that would have half of the tuners at one end and half at the other like we have seen on some practice guitars and some unusual instruments, the Stossel lute being one of them (not sure of spelling the name). Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 5, 2005 3:58 AM To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 We could have some form of French tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on this. Gary - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you mean that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word We I stand corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of what it is we do. What you mean we, white man? ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Williams Concert
Spell checkers dew knot sea awl. -Original Message- From: Fossum, Arthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 5, 2005 4:29 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: Williams Concert Sounds like a spell checker gone awry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Willams Concert Something strange about my letter; I wrote Lorimer, yet the forward spells it's Lorimar. What's up? James To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
At 08:12 AM 4/5/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. While he isn't my favorite guitarist, I occasionally do enjoy hearing John Williams. I would rather hear him play guitar music than lute music, and his propensity to edit out variations from compositions in that form is slightly irritating. I still like his work. I hope to one day grow up to understand music. Until then, I'm happy to enjoy music. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. While he isn't my favorite guitarist, I occasionally do enjoy hearing John Williams. I would rather hear him play guitar music than lute music, and his propensity to edit out variations from compositions in that form is slightly irritating. I still like his work. I hope to one day grow up to understand music. Until then, I'm happy to enjoy music. Eugene That's fine. However any music that has any depth suffers horribly in JW's hands. He arrives at each coordinates on time with both hands, but just doesn't get the blues. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
of a long lute and this is the reason for the strap. You also could use the strap with a newly designed instrument with tuning machines. By now, the purists are sufficiently horrified Probably not. They would have seen these inanities come and go, once a year or so. BTW, what do you call non-purists? Pollutists perchance? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
At 10:05 AM 4/5/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: [Williams] arrives at each coordinates on time with both hands, but just doesn't get the blues. I certainly can't argue that. That's why I enjoy Williams on Koshkin or Domeniconi--i.e., newish music suited to technical interpretations--but favor Lightnin' Hopkins, early Muddy Waters, or the ubiquitously cited Robert Johnson for blues. So this is a little closer to appropriate for this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
[Williams] arrives at each coordinates on time with both hands, but just doesn't get the blues. I certainly can't argue that. That's why I enjoy Williams on Koshkin or Domeniconi--i.e., newish music suited to technical interpretations--but favor Lightnin' Hopkins, early Muddy Waters, or the ubiquitously cited Robert Johnson for blues. So this is a little closer to appropriate for I used blues figuratively. Lightnin' said once Some people never get the blues, and some only get then if they lose somebody in the family. this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Egüez on dV.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
(by the addition of sweaters in colder months, of course). ++Move to California or Hawaii. We don't do winter. :) Hence the Bandar-Logi approach to lute-playing, obviously. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert...and de Visee on theorbe
At 10:26 AM 4/5/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Egüez on dV.. I have, although my exposure is limited to a singular suite once heard on the radio. It's not on my personal shelves yet...but soon. I like it too. It struck me as being tastefully executed with a strong but fluid sense for the pulse. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Egüez on dV.. RT Yea, I highly recommend Edwardo Egez, as well. I usually put him on when I have problems falling asleep! Kind of like counting sheep, but instead one can literally count the notes he plays so slow. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert [Williams] arrives at each coordinates on time with both hands, but just doesn't get the blues. I certainly can't argue that. That's why I enjoy Williams on Koshkin or Domeniconi--i.e., newish music suited to technical interpretations--but favor Lightnin' Hopkins, early Muddy Waters, or the ubiquitously cited Robert Johnson for blues. So this is a little closer to appropriate for I used blues figuratively. Lightnin' said once Some people never get the blues, and some only get then if they lose somebody in the family. this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Egüez on dV.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
I wonder about the materials used in 16-18th cent. clothing, especially pants and shirts. I know that wearing leather pants would make holding the lute much easier while sitting. It would be stylish at a minimum. --- Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before inventing new ways of holding an instrument, it's useful to look at what early players actually did. For the lute the following come to mind: - Iconography depicting extended peghead lutes (ie theorboes, archlutes, late german baroque lutes) frequently shows the use of a ribbon/strap running from the base to an attachment point on the rear of the peghead eg from Castaldi (1622) right up to Scheidler(c1800). Most extant early instruments of this type also have attachment points (buttons/slotted fittings). - Many later baroque lutes have two buttons: one at the base and one on the back close to the neck. It has been suggested (Spence) that a chord was passed between the two and looped around a coat button (early coats were much heavier/stiffer than modern). I seen gut strings fastened on a few 18thC lutes but, of course, these cld be later additions. To be frank, I've tried this method and have not been happy with the results - has anybosy else? - rest the lute against a table ( early sources and some iconography) - this also assists the resonance of the instrument (rather like Aguado's 'tripodion'). Finally, it seems to me that most (not all) depictions of lute players show the instrument being held fairly high ie against the lower chest rather than the stomach (rather akin to the flamenco guitarist position compared to that of a modern 'classical' guitarist) with the body resting on the left thigh rather than in the lap. A holding arrangement should allow for this position and posture. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Eg? dV.. RT Yea, I highly recommend Edwardo Egez, as well. I usually put him on when I have problems falling asleep! Kind of like counting sheep, but instead one can literally count the notes he plays so slow. Michael Thames Michael, FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
In my neck o' the woods beautiful music is important, and NOT whether it is done from memory or otherwise. RT And I assume you've perfected both aspects of this art, and are highly qualified to let loose with your undigested cheese, Herr Genius. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Strap Buttons Regarding Williams's memorization act: how many instruments and tunings does he perform on on a regular basis? (Koyunbaba doesn't count.) Chris Well this is really the most beautiful part of a John Williams concert, or for that matter any concert, isn't it. His ability to perform flawlessly from memory where everything is perfected to the T. A rare event. In my neck o' the woods beautiful music is important, and NOT whether it is done from memory or otherwise. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Egüez on dV.. RT Yea, I highly recommend Edwardo Egez, as well. I usually put him on when I have problems falling asleep! Kind of like counting sheep, but instead one can literally count the notes he plays so slow. Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Eg? dV.. RT Yea, I highly recommend Edwardo Egez, as well. I usually put him on when I have problems falling asleep! Kind of like counting sheep, but instead one can literally count the notes he plays so slow. Michael Thames Michael, FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
In a message dated 04/05/05 7:04:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I used blues figuratively. Actually, Williams does have a recording of 3 blues by Charlie Byrd on a disc called Spirit of the Guitar You gotta hear it! Mark Delpriora Co-chair, guitar department, Manhattan School of Music To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa One doesn't need to be able to play better, faster, than someone else to comment, as we have witnessed from Roman's critique of JW. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: ariel abramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Egüez on dV.. RT Yea, I highly recommend Edwardo Egez, as well. I usually put him on when I have problems falling asleep! Kind of like counting sheep, but instead one can literally count the notes he plays so slow. Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
You may, indeed, have that opinion. It may be shared with others. It is still only an opinion. JM On 4/5/05 8:28 AM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess I just don't understand music - thank you for the councEl. JM You are welcome. BTW, I am not disputing that JW is a great player; undoubtedly he is. However he is not a musician. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/5/05 8:12 AM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You say that as though the problem were with JW and not RT JM In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/4/05 5:36 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I here John Williams once again delivered the goods last night in San Francisco. Opening with six of his own pieces, with an, on the end of your seat, flawless rendition of the Chaconne. At 64 that's amazing. Two sold out concerts at Herbst theater, anyone catch that one? I catch JW on the radio once in a while. To this day I cannot figure out what's the big deal about this dude RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv PS I 'm told there wasn't a hint of sheet music to be seen. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT I literally can't tell at times if it's the note that's sustaining , or if it's reverb. With that amount of reverb Roman even you would sound good. Oldest trick in the book. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa One doesn't need to be able to play better, faster, than someone else to comment, as we have witnessed from Roman's critique of JW. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
In my neck o' the woods beautiful music is important, and NOT whether it is done from memory or otherwise. RT And I assume you've perfected both aspects of this art, and are highly qualified to let loose with your undigested cheese, Herr Genius. 1. I make no claim to such an exalted state for myself in music. 2. I have no intolerance to lactose, only to JWelveeta. RT Regarding Williams's memorization act: how many instruments and tunings does he perform on on a regular basis? (Koyunbaba doesn't count.) Chris Well this is really the most beautiful part of a John Williams concert, or for that matter any concert, isn't it. His ability to perform flawlessly from memory where everything is perfected to the T. A rare event. In my neck o' the woods beautiful music is important, and NOT whether it is done from memory or otherwise. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
You may, indeed, have that opinion. It may be shared with others. It is still only an opinion. JM Like I said: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT On 4/5/05 8:28 AM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess I just don't understand music - thank you for the councEl. JM You are welcome. BTW, I am not disputing that JW is a great player; undoubtedly he is. However he is not a musician. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/5/05 8:12 AM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You say that as though the problem were with JW and not RT JM In fact, in general people who understand music find JW unlistenable. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv On 4/4/05 5:36 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I here John Williams once again delivered the goods last night in San Francisco. Opening with six of his own pieces, with an, on the end of your seat, flawless rendition of the Chaconne. At 64 that's amazing. Two sold out concerts at Herbst theater, anyone catch that one? I catch JW on the radio once in a while. To this day I cannot figure out what's the big deal about this dude RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv PS I 'm told there wasn't a hint of sheet music to be seen. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
Make us an MP3, and post it somewhere (fair use: Educational) RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I used blues figuratively. Actually, Williams does have a recording of 3 blues by Charlie Byrd on a disc called Spirit of the Guitar You gotta hear it! Mark Delpriora Co-chair, guitar department, Manhattan School of Music To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT I literally can't tell at times if it's the note that's sustaining , or if it's reverb. With that amount of reverb Roman even you would sound good. Oldest trick in the book. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Daftness can reverberate briefly, but don't expect any sustain. I admit to have overdone on reverb here http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 though. RT Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT No, as I said before I'm not a big jazz fan. However, I would disagree SPEED is sexy! If you've ever driven a Porsche on the autobahn, you would know what I mean. Cursing around in the back seat of a taxi, may cause back seat driver syndrome, which seems to be the problem at hand. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ariel abramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa One doesn't need to be able to play better, faster, than someone else to comment, as we have witnessed from Roman's critique of JW. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I admit to have overdone on reverb here http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 though. RT I have yet to open any of your cheesey products, I'm not about to start now. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT I literally can't tell at times if it's the note that's sustaining , or if it's reverb. With that amount of reverb Roman even you would sound good. Oldest trick in the book. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Daftness can reverberate briefly, but don't expect any sustain. I admit to have overdone on reverb here http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 though. RT Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT Back in the really old country, we say... If a parrot keeps repeating old sayings, he winds up in a cage. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ariel abramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT No, as I said before I'm not a big jazz fan. However, I would disagree SPEED is sexy! If you've ever driven a Porsche on the autobahn, you would know what I mean. Cursing around in the back seat of a taxi, may cause back seat driver syndrome, which seems to be the problem at hand. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ariel abramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa One doesn't need to be able to play better, faster, than someone else to comment, as we have witnessed from Roman's critique of JW. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT No, as I said before I'm not a big jazz fan. However, I would disagree SPEED is sexy! If you've ever driven a Porsche on the autobahn, you would know what I mean. I suppose you have no idea how many of these end up drowned off the Nonza-IsulaRussa road in Corsica... Cursing around in the back seat of a taxi, may cause back seat driver syndrome, which seems to be the problem at hand. That is not a NYC problem. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Complete cancellation of sound.
One might, a priori, suspect that two strings of a course would occasionally vibrate 180 degrees out of phase, cancel each other, and produce no sound. I wonder why this never happens in the real world. I understand that such cancellation is the basis of beats (eg, as used by piano tuners). But such beats are usually subtle, and never produce any- thing like complete silence. With two singers, one might formulate a hypothesis based on the different timbres and the different room positions. But such a hypothesis would not cover the case of strings in a course pair. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I suppose you have no idea how many of these end up drowned off the Nonza-IsulaRussa road in Corsica I've found it's usually the slow drivers that cause all the problems, you know like driving to slow in the fast lane. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ariel abramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:46 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert I suspect Thames is a Metheny fan as well. I always preferred meaningful to fast, even before Pat O'Brien told me in 1987 that speed wasn't sexy. Back in the old country we say: Some like watermelon, some like watermelon rind. RT No, as I said before I'm not a big jazz fan. However, I would disagree SPEED is sexy! If you've ever driven a Porsche on the autobahn, you would know what I mean. I suppose you have no idea how many of these end up drowned off the Nonza-IsulaRussa road in Corsica... Cursing around in the back seat of a taxi, may cause back seat driver syndrome, which seems to be the problem at hand. That is not a NYC problem. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I admit to have overdone on reverb here http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 though. RT I have yet to open any of your cheesey products, I'm not about to start now. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com In fact, it was produced by friend in Limburg. So it is not for individuals weaned on Velveeta. RT FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT I literally can't tell at times if it's the note that's sustaining , or if it's reverb. With that amount of reverb Roman even you would sound good. Oldest trick in the book. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Daftness can reverberate briefly, but don't expect any sustain. I admit to have overdone on reverb here http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 though. RT Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Willams Concert FYI: Fomenting unrest requires intelligence. RT And a hell of allot of reverb! Michael Thames The amount of reverb is commensurate with intelligence. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete cancellation of sound.
Herbert, Your point is well taken, I now concede to the cheese maker from NYC. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Complete cancellation of sound. One might, a priori, suspect that two strings of a course would occasionally vibrate 180 degrees out of phase, cancel each other, and produce no sound. I wonder why this never happens in the real world. I understand that such cancellation is the basis of beats (eg, as used by piano tuners). But such beats are usually subtle, and never produce any- thing like complete silence. With two singers, one might formulate a hypothesis based on the different timbres and the different room positions. But such a hypothesis would not cover the case of strings in a course pair. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
I suppose you have no idea how many of these end up drowned off the Nonza-IsulaRussa road in Corsica I've found it's usually the slow drivers that cause all the problems, you know like driving to slow in the fast lane. Michael Thames Slow works for me, especially in the intimate situations. In any case holding up a nether orifice in a BMW in the fast lane is sheer FUN. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
Moose leather pants were a part of cavalry uniform until the Crimean war. No lutenistic use, I suspect. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I wonder about the materials used in 16-18th cent. clothing, especially pants and shirts. I know that wearing leather pants would make holding the lute much easier while sitting. It would be stylish at a minimum. --- Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before inventing new ways of holding an instrument, it's useful to look at what early players actually did. For the lute the following come to mind: - Iconography depicting extended peghead lutes (ie theorboes, archlutes, late german baroque lutes) frequently shows the use of a ribbon/strap running from the base to an attachment point on the rear of the peghead eg from Castaldi (1622) right up to Scheidler(c1800). Most extant early instruments of this type also have attachment points (buttons/slotted fittings). - Many later baroque lutes have two buttons: one at the base and one on the back close to the neck. It has been suggested (Spence) that a chord was passed between the two and looped around a coat button (early coats were much heavier/stiffer than modern). I seen gut strings fastened on a few 18thC lutes but, of course, these cld be later additions. To be frank, I've tried this method and have not been happy with the results - has anybosy else? - rest the lute against a table ( early sources and some iconography) - this also assists the resonance of the instrument (rather like Aguado's 'tripodion'). Finally, it seems to me that most (not all) depictions of lute players show the instrument being held fairly high ie against the lower chest rather than the stomach (rather akin to the flamenco guitarist position compared to that of a modern 'classical' guitarist) with the body resting on the left thigh rather than in the lap. A holding arrangement should allow for this position and posture. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
this list, I also favor Yasunori Imamura on de Visee. Eugene I suppose you haven't heard Eduardo Eg? dV.. RT Yea, I highly recommend Edwardo Egez, as well. I usually put him on when I have problems falling asleep! Kind of like counting sheep, but instead one can literally count the notes he plays so slow. Can do play it any faster or better? Just curious... aa I hope his lutes are not as quickly concocted as his sentences.. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete cancellation of sound.
The strings would have to be 180 degrees out of phase, but the waveforms even between two strings at the same is unlikely to ever be identical--different amplitudes for various harmonics, even not counting that one string might easily be plucked slightly harder than the other. But that's the facile answer. I was going to say that if you had a little demon suspended between the two strings the beats would come closer to complete cancellation of sound, and observers farther away wouldn't experience the cancellation, but no, we're not hearing the string's vibrations. My Soloette has strings, but is nearly inaudible. I suspect that a better place to look is the top plate. It's not the strings that we hear, but the vibration of the plate (influenced by the resonating cavity). I suppose that two strings could vibrate in such a way that the vibrations transmitted to the top plate would be cancelled, but it strikes me as intuitively highly improbable because of the asymmetries involved: if the two strings vibrated such that the vibrations cancelled on the left side of the plate, I don't think it's likely they'd cancel on the right side. The two strings would attach/sit on different places wrt the bracing. If I wanted to speculate even more, I'd wonder if there's any coupling between the strings that would disfavor having them stay 180 out of phase. But my coffee hasn't had its desired effect today. Tim B. At 10:24 AM 4/5/2005, you wrote: One might, a priori, suspect that two strings of a course would occasionally vibrate 180 degrees out of phase, cancel each other, and produce no sound. I wonder why this never happens in the real world. I understand that such cancellation is the basis of beats (eg, as used by piano tuners). But such beats are usually subtle, and never produce any- thing like complete silence. With two singers, one might formulate a hypothesis based on the different timbres and the different room positions. But such a hypothesis would not cover the case of strings in a course pair. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
because the group in which i play tends to walk around while performing, i tried putting a very simple harness on my oud made from leather thong boot laces. i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when i drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older then .. i passed one leather thong down across the face by the bridge, under the strings, around the girth and attached another thong at the front which went off at a right angle - past where a button would be if i could bring myself to drill a hole in my lovely oud - around the butt end of bowl to join the first thong at the back. i tied this off at the top near the uppermost part of the face, ran it around my neck and joined it to the peg-box, under the strings, behind the nut. it was simple, unobtrusive and (i thought) safe ... till the oud slipped out of the harness and bounced off the pavement. luckily, there was no damage done but even as i'm writing this, my toes are curling. the problem was solved by switching to a charango with wooden pegs and by buying a smaller kids oud which is lighter and much easier to handle. (still wincing) - bill --- Christopher Schaub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder about the materials used in 16-18th cent. clothing, especially pants and shirts. I know that wearing leather pants would make holding the lute much easier while sitting. It would be stylish at a minimum. --- Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before inventing new ways of holding an instrument, it's useful to look at what early players actually did. For the lute the following come to mind: - Iconography depicting extended peghead lutes (ie theorboes, archlutes, late german baroque lutes) frequently shows the use of a ribbon/strap running from the base to an attachment point on the rear of the peghead eg from Castaldi (1622) right up to Scheidler(c1800). Most extant early instruments of this type also have attachment points (buttons/slotted fittings). - Many later baroque lutes have two buttons: one at the base and one on the back close to the neck. It has been suggested (Spence) that a chord was passed between the two and looped around a coat button (early coats were much heavier/stiffer than modern). I seen gut strings fastened on a few 18thC lutes but, of course, these cld be later additions. To be frank, I've tried this method and have not been happy with the results - has anybosy else? - rest the lute against a table ( early sources and some iconography) - this also assists the resonance of the instrument (rather like Aguado's 'tripodion'). Finally, it seems to me that most (not all) depictions of lute players show the instrument being held fairly high ie against the lower chest rather than the stomach (rather akin to the flamenco guitarist position compared to that of a modern 'classical' guitarist) with the body resting on the left thigh rather than in the lap. A holding arrangement should allow for this position and posture. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for ouds)? You could run the thong in one of the side holes and out the other. Avoids interference with the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the harness. because the group in which i play tends to walk around while performing, i tried putting a very simple harness on my oud made from leather thong boot laces. i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when i drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older then .. -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
At 03:22 PM 4/4/2005, Vance Wood wrote: Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. I was simply commenting on your assumption that you were speaking for all of us. (I assume most people got the reference to the old Bill Cosby routine about the Lone Ranger and Tonto??? There was a smiley in my message.) Personally, I don't feel that there is an imbalance in my practice between historical accuracy and being a 21st-century lute player. Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete cancellation of sound.
i don't have the science to even attempt this but on the same principle, i once thought that a hand help loudspeaker (voice gun) could be attached to a multiple sound producing oscilator of some sort, aimed at any offending (LOUD!) noise and neutralize it at source. sort of a getto-buster instead of blaster. there's got to be a nobel in there somewhere ... - bill --- Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One might, a priori, suspect that two strings of a course would occasionally vibrate 180 degrees out of phase, cancel each other, and produce no sound. I wonder why this never happens in the real world. I understand that such cancellation is the basis of beats (eg, as used by piano tuners). But such beats are usually subtle, and never produce any- thing like complete silence. With two singers, one might formulate a hypothesis based on the different timbres and the different room positions. But such a hypothesis would not cover the case of strings in a course pair. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Fwd: Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
No Daniel, it's not just G I'm afraid but on the basis of historical evidence, or rather lack of it, most other early lutenists. If we are serious about period performance it is important we pay proper regard to what they wld have expected based on the evidence and not our personal preferences. rgds Martyn Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for their adoption in modern times. No, the case for their adoption in modern times is getting an F# instead of a Gb and a C# instead of a Db in meantone tuning! For that, I am willing to have Gallilei's ghost stare dissaprovingly at me. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
boo ... hisss ... the soundboard is much too fragile and it would damage the roses. - bill --- Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for ouds)? You could run the thong in one of the side holes and out the other. Avoids interference with the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the harness. because the group in which i play tends to walk around while performing, i tried putting a very simple harness on my oud made from leather thong boot laces. i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when i drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older then .. -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
Oh, didn't think about that. The sound board on my oud could take it just fine, and it doesn't have any roses. (It's a really cheap oud - got it in a pawn shop for $40). Might depend on the weight of the instrument too - mine is really light, but an Egyptian one might be too heavy for that. boo ... hisss ... the soundboard is much too fragile and it would damage the roses. - bill --- Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for ouds)? You could run the thong in one of the side holes and out the other. Avoids interference with the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the harness. because the group in which i play tends to walk around while performing, i tried putting a very simple harness on my oud made from leather thong boot laces. i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when i drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older then .. -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
At 06:48 AM 4/5/2005, Daniel Shoskes wrote: - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for their adoption in modern times. No, the case for their adoption in modern times is getting an F# instead of a Gb and a C# instead of a Db in meantone tuning! For that, I am willing to have Gallilei's ghost stare dissaprovingly at me. Precisely. Galilei was advocating the use of equal temperament and disparaging lutenists who used tastini to avoid some of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths, using typical 16th-century invective. Actually rather mild by their standards. Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
Dear Gary, I've thought about these for some instrument or other, can't remember which, probably a clarinet, and the price of the ones in my catalogue made them prohibitive, especially if you think that you're talking about a minimum of eleven. My catalogue isn't to hand, but I think they were Schaller, and violin size, which would be too short for most lutes... Yours, Tony - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 We could have some form of French tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on this. Gary - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you mean that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word We I stand corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of what it is we do. What you mean we, white man? ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute
On second (or is it third?) thought, the sound board is hold the tension of the strings which is much more than the weight of the oud. I think it could take it. (The roses may be a different issue). boo ... hisss ... the soundboard is much too fragile and it would damage the roses. - bill --- Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for ouds)? You could run the thong in one of the side holes and out the other. Avoids interference with the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the harness. because the group in which i play tends to walk around while performing, i tried putting a very simple harness on my oud made from leather thong boot laces. i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when i drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older then .. -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
Re: Complete cancellation of sound.
... different amplitudes for various harmonics ... Different phases too. If I wanted to speculate even more, I'd wonder if there's any coupling between the strings that would disfavor having them stay 180 out of phase. Interesting and plausible idea. ... But that's the facile answer. I suspect the correct answer relates to an interaction between (and superposition of) the three effects you mention. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete cancellation of sound.
i don't have the science to even attempt this but on the same principle, i once thought that a hand help loudspeaker (voice gun) could be attached to a multiple sound producing oscilator of some sort, aimed at any offending (LOUD!) noise and neutralize it at source. There'd be so much asymmetric echoing and directionality that it wouldn't work. For example, red + blue = purple. But if a red light is on the north wall and a blue light is on the south wall, the total effect is easily distinguishable from light purple from its source(s). sort of a getto-buster instead of blaster. There is a commercial device which scans through the off codes for dozens of TV remotes, and will turn off many waiting room TVs surreptitiously. The brand name is TV be gone, TV-B-gone or somthing like that. I read retail is around $80. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
Unless the Pegheds were specially made for a lute, peg length and diameter would be a problem. The first lute I built for myself had Schaller adjustable tension pegs (I didn't have a lathe to do my own pegs, didn't know where to buy any lute pegs, and wasn't sure I could fit traditional pegs accurately). I had to build the peg head with a center rib to take the tips of the violin pegs. They worked just fine, but because of their larger diameter they were finicky to tune. And also because the pegs were bigger, the peg head had to be larger (no taper towards the tip) and looked pretty horsey. The internal gears on the Pegheds would take care of the finicky tuning, but if they were violin-sized you would still have the big horsey-looking things (relative to lute pegs) on the end of your lute. I've heard that these pegs are expensive. Imagine buying 15 for an 8 course lute! Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:27:52 -0600 This might be interesting. Be careful though if you mention the word lute or how's business? to this guy he goes ballistic, as I have painfully found out. A couple of clients of mine have put them on their flamenco guitars. Jury's still out! http://www.pegheds.com/ Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:58 AM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 We could have some form of French tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on this. Gary - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you mean that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word We I stand corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of what it is we do. What you mean we, white man? ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Dear Martyn, Yes, I would be most grateful for the relevant page numbers in the original edition(s) -1568 and/or 1584. The MacClintoc translation/edition is of the 1584 version. If I interprete the listings of contents right, the talk about uneven fret placement and tastini starts in page 155ff: Unequal frets on Lute and Viola to provide for major and minor semitones are an impertinence, and then page 162: Frets added to the Lute, and their impertinence. What makes me wonder, is that these page numbers seem to correspond also the pages of the translation! And for ex. this 155ff is the _lower_ half of the modern page 155! Could MacClintock really preserve the original page numbering in the translation? Anyhow, please check that Martyn, and let us know! By the way, in the book there is lots of more interesting material of these matters than I wrote to the net in my page in 1995! That is only kind of teaser, actually... ;-) And in the book there is also very much else to be studied! I must put the book in the front of my reading list! Thanks for re-activating my interest to Il Fronimo! Perhaps I or others will inform the List of other intersting comments of music and lutes written by Vincenzo G.! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
send
Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
Dear Marion and Chris, On the face of it I agree with your objection to the way the Lute is tuned, mechanically not musically. However, if you take all of the arguments that can be made about an historically correct Lute and its many difficulties and choose to update the instrument, we would wind up with the kind of instruments that were being cranked out as Lutes about forty years ago by Guitar makers. They had metal frets like a Guitar, the were heavily built, like a Guitar, and they sounded a lot like a Guitar. This is the kind of instrument that Gulian Bream played and received a lot of grief for doing so. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Chris, I see no disadvantage with the very slight added weight My 11-string guitar has 11 metal tuning machines and I have no trouble holding it for long periods of time. In any case, you could always get a strap or a piece of silk if it became a problem. It is a very small price to pay for great efficiency, linearity in pitch vs. angle, and exactness of pitch without a big hassle and worry about environmental changes. As for bowed strings, I don't know about your violins, but mine have small machine tuners at the loop end of the strings. You can install them very easily and coarse tune with the pegs. To get the fine tuning, you use the machines. The fact that these machine tuners are readily available is proof positive that the pegs don't work very well at all, especially for the short diapasons of violins. If lutes had them we would not have so much trouble tuning. However, we all are in this long-term worship service of historical accuracy and no one would dare modify anything on a lute if it looked modern just to be efficient. It might be pointed out that the design of the lutes that we use today was the state of the art during the 16th and 17h centuries, for example. Modern luthiers have copied, this design with no attempt to update it, all out of concern for historical accuracy. If the luthiers of the 16th and 17th century had had access to better technology, they would have had the practical wisdom to used it. Modern luthiers will make anything we order. We order the old designs, then we pay for it in terms of time wasted on tuning when we could be composing or sending email messages to our lute friends all across the world. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 2:15 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Marion, I see an advantage to pegs: weight! I can't imaging how much the pegbox of a 13-course baroque lute would weigh with metal tuning machines. My ten-course was a real balancing act when I got it without having to deal with even more uneven weight distribution. Also, pegs seem to work pretty well for modern bowed strings with metal strings and high tension (with the exception of the bass, of course). Chris --- Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush
Re: Newbie Question #2
Dear Caroline: That's good to hear, I think it is important to be focused but not cemented in one spot. When you take the sum total of all we know about the way the Lute was played and the kinds of Lutes that were played, or not played as the case may be, we really know, for sure, very little as a fact. I thought I detected the smile in there but I was not sure. We don't even know for sure the nature of the strings that were used, and are left having to make a best guess; of course we can take that scenario one step further and condemn anyone else that does not agree with our conclusions. Even when we have what some may consider a detailed description of this or that we are still left with the fact that English of the period (in the case of English sources) has changed over the years leaving us with a degree of doubt even in the face of the obvious. In a sense we are kind of left struggling with an icon in the Lute many generations removed in time and understanding in much the same way scholars are left dealing with understanding The Bible translated from obscure sources, dead languages and years of abuse. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 03:22 PM 4/4/2005, Vance Wood wrote: Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. I was simply commenting on your assumption that you were speaking for all of us. (I assume most people got the reference to the old Bill Cosby routine about the Lone Ranger and Tonto??? There was a smiley in my message.) Personally, I don't feel that there is an imbalance in my practice between historical accuracy and being a 21st-century lute player. Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Newbie Question #2
Hi Gary, How do you like your 5 string double bass? I could never get used to the flatter arch of a 5 string bridge and opted for a low C fingered extension many years ago. Regards, Mike - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:58 AM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 We could have some form of French tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on this. Gary - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Vance Wood wrote: However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. ++I agree with Vance on this one. Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 Dear Caroline: In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you mean that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word We I stand corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of what it is we do. What you mean we, white man? ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
Ramon Marco de Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Are lutes built strongly enough to handle strap buttons? yes, but... make sure you have the work done by someone with experience; the neck end of the lute has a small block inside that anchors the ends of all the ribs and provides an excellent point of attachment for that end of the strap; the other end of the lute can be as thin as three layers of rib-thickness wood; typically 3-4mm thick in all. Historical lutes are depicted in some paintings with a 'strap' of gut run between two buttons. A hook or a button on the clothing of the player engages this loop. MOdern players have tried this with some success, and have also used both banjo- style or guitar-style straps. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
pegs
Timothy, I 've spoken to the guy at Pegheads, about the possibility of making lute pegs, which he says can easily be done, one can use whatever design one wants for the head and different lengths etc. However, after telling me he could do it, he seemed to back out of the idea, and rant and rave about how much money he lost just making 19thcentury guitar tuners, on and on, and on. I then turned on Gunther Mark to the idea, and last I heard he was pursuing the idea with him Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
