[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Interesting points, Daniel. I'll need to think it through. The comment about the interval of a (minor) third between the top two courses is true for a normal 13c lute, but not so for the German Continuo Theorbo, which does not have the chanterelle. Yet that doesn't matter any more once you've learned the fretboard by heart. But when comparing theorboes - Italian and German Continuo - as opposed to lutes, I doubt if the bass lines would be so different, considering the number of open strings. I consider that the major advantage, that basses are quite the same on the chitarrone and the baroque lute, e. g. //a is E and it's the 9th course on both instruments. Plus, as Benjamin argues, you don't have the confusion of re-entrant tuning to complicate things. Which doesn't matter any more once you've learned the chitarrone fretboard by heart. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Is that in any way crucial? When playing continuo, you want to comfortably produce the sound required, i. e. of the theorbo. I doubt that the sound, if at all, differs because of the _tuning_. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Hi Daniel, Actually, on the German theorbo there is no high f', so the top interval is still a 4th, like on other continuo instruments. Also, because the 'normal' baroque tuning that we have in our minds (a d f a d f) is symmetrical - that is to say that the tuning of the top three strings reproduces itself exactly on the lower 3 strings of the petit jeu once we allow for octave equivalence - we only have to learn the fingerings for scales, melodic fragments, chord shapes, etc. one time (and only on 3 strings!) and then just repeat this knowledge lower down - and all of this is directly transferable to the German theorbo. This is in contrast to the other giraffe instrument tunings (Archlute: g c f a d g, It. Th: a d g b e a), which are *not* symmetrical, and thus, even though they may have one less internal interval then the d-minor tuning, they require contending with a greater number of open pitches (or as I call them, conceptual starting bas(s)es - sorry for the pun), and this is actually what proves more difficult in the end: indeed, each of these has 5 different open pitches as opposed to the d-minor tuning's 3. So even if, as you say, there is one more interval to deal with in the d-minor tuning than in archlute or Italian theorbo tuning (the latter is actually much more complicated than this due to the re-entrance), d-minor is still much more straghtforward conceptually. That said, the *most* important point, and the main thrust of what Weiss, Baron, and myself are saying (if I may put myself in such illustrious company with tongue firmly placed in cheek), is that if you are a d-minor player anyway, you can just re-use the tuning you already know for continuo, and not have to totally relearn the fretboard - and this is obviously by far the simplest thing to do! Best, BN On 26/11/2007, Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob: I did go through a lot of the same questioning a year ago as I was having my first continuo instrument built for me. I did enjoy Benjamin's article and was tempted by the supposed ease at chord forms and harmony. 13 course Baroque lute is my primary solo instrument and there was a definite appeal. The primary argument against, made by more senior and experienced mentors, was that the interval of a third between the top two courses can make counterpoint and voice leading much more difficult. Thus, If you wanted to add a small melodic interjection between two phrases, you have to contend, in each key, with the fact that there are three different interval structures between strings, (fourth, minor third and major third). There are basically only two on a normal archlute, fourths and a major third, and your neither your bass lines nor your treble improvisations normally cross over this divide. Most stay pretty much to one side or the other. Thus when you hear an idea in your head you can often finger it intuitively. On baroque lute each moving bass line is fingered differently in each key as it crosses the strings. Other reason I settled against a d minor continuo instrument: much longer string length for a roman lute (80 cm or more) which is tough for my stubby hands. DS On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Rob wrote: Actually, I've been giving it a lot of thought as I have a theorbo on order from Malcolm Prior, being made right now, and due to be stuffed down my chimney by Santa. At first I just asked for an Italian-style instrument, and we settled on the Koch at 86cms. Then I started getting into the idea of the d minor tuning without the chanterelle. Malcolm and I looked at various supposed 'Deutsche Theorboes', and Andreas Schlegel and others mentioned the very same Koch we had chosen for our Italian model. I can't afford two theorboes (few people can) so it seems a good compromise would be the Koch, with which I could change tunings - obviously not in the same gig :-) It seems a period of experimentation lies ahead. I'm just wondering what your experience of Dm continuo is, pros and cons, what works, what doesn't. Do you play more melodic counterpoint to the melody, or arpeggios? Is there a different overall feel as compared to accompanying the same music on an Italian tuning? Do you play without a chanterelle? Etc, Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
Hi Rob, Regarding the point of d-minor continuo in Italy, there is in fact other documentation of its use apart from that of Weiss. There is a source *by an Italian*, the theorist and composer Pier Francesco Valentini (1586-1654), who discusses at some length d-minor continuo playing in his *Il leuto anatomizzato ... nelle quale si dimostrano 12 diversi ordini di sonare et intervolare trasportato nel leuto,* a very early source about d-minor continuo written in 1642, only a few years after the tuning came out in France itself. I didn't know about this source until after my article went to print, and this could have added a lot of juicy nuance. This source, written in Italian by an Italian for Italians, presumably attests to a school of d-minor playing there. Also, if this was already happening in 1642, how had this grown by Weiss's time a century later? This subject needs further exploration Does anyone on this list know anything more about this? BN On the other hand, I have not managed to talk myself into definit ely choosing the German tuning on my 86cms theorbo, but I have the possibility of experimenting. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
EXCUSE THE CAPITAL LETTERS. On 26/11/2007, Mathias R=F6sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Interesting points, Daniel. I'll need to think it through. The comment about the interval of a (minor) third between the top two courses is true for a normal 13c lute, but not so for the German Continuo Theorbo, which does not have the chanterelle. Yet that doesn't matter any more once you've learned the fretboard by heart. I TOTALLY AGREE Plus, as Benjamin argues, you don't have the confusion of re-entrant tuning to complicate things. Which doesn't matter any more once you've learned the chitarrone fretboard by heart. I TOTALLY AGREE To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Dear Rob and Others, On 2007-11-26, at 09:44, Rob wrote: There would of course be no possibility of playing the Italian solo repertoire on the German instrument, but I personally have no interest in learning that repertoire, although I like listening to it. The Italian solo theorbo repertoire (Kapsperger, Pacinini, Castaldi, even Pittoni) is rather different period then the ''German theorbo'' time -- no conflict in most programs played. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. As far as the ''German theorbo'' is concerned, its popularity was probably restricted temporarily and georaphically to Saxony and to Weiss students and enthusiasts. But the d-m lute was played for almost 150 years -- from Ballard prints to Hagen or Kohaut at least in a large part of Europe. Italy? Why Pierre Gautier was published in Rome 1638? How popular was teaching of a Frenchmen Julien Blovin leaving in Rome somehow in the second half of the XVIIthC., whose hand is present in several d-m lute manuscripts? Who was the scribe of the mysterious tablature with several Weiss pieces and an inscription ''Venetijs. 7. 7br. 1712'' (now F-Pn Rés. Vmc ms. 61)? Try to compare it with the number of know Italian sources in tablature of archlute music. Beside of these few facts which comes to my mind at the moment, the rest of Europe (I know little about Spain) played d-m lute as a solo instrument. It seems unimaginable people were not using it for songs or small chamber music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Nowbody will ever know. But I have in front of me the pages from Scarlatti's ''Tolomeo et Alessandro...'' of 1711 with a 'Liuto solo' fragment. A very simple 'Alberti Bass' like part in fast sixteenth notes, accompaning traverso(!) flute and a soprano, which can be played on virtually anything. It seems Scarlatti made a gesture to the famous young man from a northern country, but had no idea of the instrument possibilities and made no efforts to learn them. I know of no other musical proofs of Weiss activities while in Rome (plus some of his solos), of course beside of literary and other evidence... Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? Provoking questions for which there are no answers, until some famous musicologist with a fondness towards lute will get financing for a serious research in Roman archives and focused on the musical establishement of the Polish court of Maria Casimira Sobieski. So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info For playing full time continuo in a professional orchestra one can tune anyhow, even in diminished FIFTH, if that's effective for him/her. Such places/positions were then and are few now, very demanding and needing strong specialization. Doing such job, in my opinion, is a disaster to a 'normal' lute playing. But for me more important is the way most people were accompanning on the lute during XVII/XVIIIth centuries, during the time the d-m tuning was an obvious choice for solos -- I'm thinking of continuo songs and chamber music. With reference to Benjamin Narvey's article, there is more documentation (sources) on playing continuo on a d-m lute, beside of Perrine and Weiss/Baron. Passing over few debatable assumptions, I like his elegant prose and specially the main arguments. All in all, the question of continuo on the d-m lute is a subject of the future, I think. Just imagine if you'd start playing lute from the 11th or the 13th course instrument... Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
Hi Benjamin. Good to see you contributing to this discussion. I was interested in your comments in your article regarding Klaus Jackobsen's thought that the very large Schelle theorbo might have had the first two strings displaced because of its long string length. Is this the tuning you use on your copy of the Schelle? It seems a reasonable supposition to me, considering that in Dm tuning, there is no point in lowering a string by an octave (as with the Italian model) because that pitch is already an open string. And do you use single or double strings? Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Benjamin Narvey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 November 2007 10:59 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy Hi Rob, Regarding the point of d-minor continuo in Italy, there is in fact other documentation of its use apart from that of Weiss. There is a source *by an Italian*, the theorist and composer Pier Francesco Valentini (1586-1654), who discusses at some length d-minor continuo playing in his *Il leuto anatomizzato ... nelle quale si dimostrano 12 diversi ordini di sonare et intervolare trasportato nel leuto,* a very early source about d-minor continuo written in 1642, only a few years after the tuning came out in France itself. I didn't know about this source until after my article went to print, and this could have added a lot of juicy nuance. This source, written in Italian by an Italian for Italians, presumably attests to a school of d-minor playing there. Also, if this was already happening in 1642, how had this grown by Weiss's time a century later? This subject needs further exploration Does anyone on this list know anything more about this? BN On the other hand, I have not managed to talk myself into definit ely choosing the German tuning on my 86cms theorbo, but I have the possibility of experimenting. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
The large Schelle theorbo is not, in fact that large in terms of string length (NB original bridge position is higher than at present and gives an original string length of only 85/86cm). Because it has a neck for 8 frets (rather than the 9 or 10 some people go for these days) it does, however, still have a big body as found on many large continuo theorboes and in iconography. The key issue is at what pitch the instrument would have played. Fortunately, we don't need to go into possible Dresden pitches (Kammerton - high or low, chor ton, low french ton, etc) since we can simply compare the maximum string stress (ie breaking stress) of the contemporary Dm lute. So if we take a common 18thC Dm lute of string length 72cm with top course at f', this very conveniently gives the same string stress as an 86cm instrument with top course at d'. In short, no need to put down an octave. Possibly this would involved slightly more frequent breakages than would be experienced on a normal tuned large continuo theorbo in A (say, string length 94cm, top course at b) but only by just over a semitone's worth (ie the same string stress as d' at 86 equates to a pitch of c# at 96). MH Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Benjamin. Good to see you contributing to this discussion. I was interested in your comments in your article regarding Klaus Jackobsen's thought that the very large Schelle theorbo might have had the first two strings displaced because of its long string length. Is this the tuning you use on your copy of the Schelle? It seems a reasonable supposition to me, considering that in Dm tuning, there is no point in lowering a string by an octave (as with the Italian model) because that pitch is already an open string. And do you use single or double strings? Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Benjamin Narvey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 November 2007 10:59 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy Hi Rob, Regarding the point of d-minor continuo in Italy, there is in fact other documentation of its use apart from that of Weiss. There is a source *by an Italian*, the theorist and composer Pier Francesco Valentini (1586-1654), who discusses at some length d-minor continuo playing in his *Il leuto anatomizzato ... nelle quale si dimostrano 12 diversi ordini di sonare et intervolare trasportato nel leuto,* a very early source about d-minor continuo written in 1642, only a few years after the tuning came out in France itself. I didn't know about this source until after my article went to print, and this could have added a lot of juicy nuance. This source, written in Italian by an Italian for Italians, presumably attests to a school of d-minor playing there. Also, if this was already happening in 1642, how had this grown by Weiss's time a century later? This subject needs further exploration Does anyone on this list know anything more about this? BN On the other hand, I have not managed to talk myself into definit ely choosing the German tuning on my 86cms theorbo, but I have the possibility of experimenting. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com -- - Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
On Nov 26, 2007, at 7:20 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: ...for me more important is the way most people were accompanning on the lute during XVII/XVIIIth centuries, during the time the d-m tuning was an obvious choice for solos -- I'm thinking of continuo songs and chamber music. ...Just imagine if you'd start playing lute from the 11th or the 13th course instrument... If lute students first began on the lute in Dm tuning, as presumably many of them did in the 17th and 18th centuries, would it not have been natural for them to play continuo in that same tuning? Baron speaks of the inconvenience of having to change to another tuning for BC playing, which implies that changing to old tuning for BC was an option in his day, but an undesirable one from his point of view as a 13-c Baroque lutenist. The fact is you can play continuo on anything, from a small guitar to a theorbo so large that the guitar would almost fit inside it, and still be historically valid one way or another. I think if we're to take Baron's advice, we should concentrate our continuo efforts on the instrument and the tuning we know best, whatever that may be. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
In short, no need to put down an octave. Which is the whole crux of the matter - down an octave in baroque tuning would just be duplicating the fourth course. So the chanterelle had to come off. Benjamin - I probably misread Klaus's comments. I'm sure he made an amazing instrument, and kudos to you for delving into this whole area. It looks like my forthcoming 86cms theorbo will be the perfect length for trying both tunings. I'll try to work out exactly how many strings I could re-use in both tunings. Rob www.rmguitar.info _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 November 2007 15:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy The large Schelle theorbo is not, in fact that large in terms of string length (NB original bridge position is higher than at present and gives an original string length of only 85/86cm). Because it has a neck for 8 frets (rather than the 9 or 10 some people go for these days) it does, however, still have a big body as found on many large continuo theorboes and in iconography. The key issue is at what pitch the instrument would have played. Fortunately, we don't need to go into possible Dresden pitches (Kammerton - high or low, chor ton, low french ton, etc) since we can simply compare the maximum string stress (ie breaking stress) of the contemporary Dm lute. So if we take a common 18thC Dm lute of string length 72cm with top course at f', this very conveniently gives the same string stress as an 86cm instrument with top course at d'. In short, no need to put down an octave. Possibly this would involved slightly more frequent breakages than would be experienced on a normal tuned large continuo theorbo in A (say, string length 94cm, top course at b) but only by just over a semitone's worth (ie the same string stress as d' at 86 equates to a pitch of c# at 96). MH Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Benjamin. Good to see you contributing to this discussion. I was interested in your comments in your article regarding Klaus Jackobsen's thought that the very large Schelle theorbo might have had the first two strings displaced because of its long string length. Is this the tuning you use on your copy of the Schelle? It seems a reasonable supposition to me, considering that in Dm tuning, there is no point in lowering a string by an octave (as with the Italian model) because that pitch is already an open string. And do you use single or double strings? Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Benjamin Narvey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 November 2007 10:59 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy Hi Rob, Regarding the point of d-minor continuo in Italy, there is in fact other documentation of its use apart from that of Weiss. There is a source *by an Italian*, the theorist and composer Pier Francesco Valentini (1586-1654), who discusses at some length d-minor continuo playing in his *Il leuto anatomizzato ... nelle quale si dimostrano 12 diversi ordini di sonare et intervolare trasportato nel leuto,* a very early source about d-minor continuo written in 1642, only a few years after the tuning came out in France itself. I didn't know about this source until after my article went to print, and this could have added a lot of juicy nuance. This source, written in Italian by an Italian for Italians, presumably attests to a school of d-minor playing there. Also, if this was already happening in 1642, how had this grown by Weiss's time a century later? This subject needs further exploration Does anyone on this list know anything more about this? BN On the other hand, I have not managed to talk myself into definit ely choosing the German tuning on my 86cms theorbo, but I have the possibility of experimenting. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? So, there are a lot of questions,
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
Hello Benjamin and others, there are many sources for ensemble playing with 11-course lute before and after 1700 (Bohemian-Austrian repertoire: Weichenberger, von Radolt, et others). For continuo there are not that many direct sources, but I want to remind of Fundamenta der Lauten Musique und zugleich der Composition, probably from Prague after 1700 - as Mathias Rösel has published it for the German lute society he can tell more details on it. It has many examples for written out basso continuo parts for d-minor lute. There is another source in a Vienna archive from the Harrach family (not included in Meyer ...), that has some pages of written out basso continuo passages. The other sources are indirect - that the lute in Germany also was used for singing (you can see that in the subtitle of many period song books) and ensemble playing etc. BTW one more hint: There is a big choral book in Krakau for d-minor lute, that also could be understood as set out basso continuo, if it is true that it uses the basses of the Freylinghausen choral book - it has more than 200 chorales set by Sciurus. I only know some of them in a Rust ms, but not yet compared them to Freylinghausen. Best regards Markus On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:59:09 , Benjamin Narvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Rob, Regarding the point of d-minor continuo in Italy, there is in fact other documentation of its use apart from that of Weiss. There is a source *by an Italian*, the theorist and composer Pier Francesco Valentini (1586-1654), who discusses at some length d-minor continuo playing in his *Il leuto anatomizzato ... nelle quale si dimostrano 12 diversi ordini di sonare et intervolare trasportato nel leuto,* a very early source about d-minor continuo written in 1642, only a few years after the tuning came out in France itself. I didn't know about this source until after my article went to print, and this could have added a lot of juicy nuance. This source, written in Italian by an Italian for Italians, presumably attests to a school of d-minor playing there. Also, if this was already happening in 1642, how had this grown by Weiss's time a century later? This subject needs further exploration Does anyone on this list know anything more about this? BN On the other hand, I have not managed to talk myself into definit ely choosing the German tuning on my 86cms theorbo, but I have the possibility of experimenting. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Pfr. Markus Lutz Schulstr. 11 D-88422 Bad Buchau Tel.: 0 75 82 / 23 24 Fax: 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
Michael, I believe that in fact 7c was standard, but they either tuned the 7th course to F or D on a G lute. The 8c is a convenient way to have both tunings on one lute, so it is sort of a standard today. g Zitat von Michael Bocchicchio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: People who have purchased lutes from me in the past have all come to me with the common wisdom that the 8c. is the standard. Why would this be? Is it true now? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
Michael As an amateur, I was in the position that I felt I could only justify purchasing one Renaissance lute. I was also hoping to venture later into 11c French Baroque music. I therefore had to make a compromise, and chose the 7c Gerle, because this actual model is used by Jacob Heringman on his Siena record http://magnatune.com/artists/heringman http://tinyurl.com/2so2sh He uses it for track 7. a four-part Fantasia from the Medici Lute Book, and also for the few Dance pieces. I figured that because of its Bologna form, it would do for the Italian repertoire, and because of its 7c status, it would be alright for most Elizabethan music, too, even if perhaps, by that period multi ribbed Paduan lutes might have become more popular. Indeed, I notice this Dowland concert in which Jacob used the very same lute, at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2004/Ellen- JacobConcert.html http://tinyurl.com/324kog The actual lute I tried at Martin Haycock's belonged to Liz Kenny. The balance and sound seemed very good, and that two such excellent professional lutists had chosen this model seemed a further guarantee. You can see front and back of the lute, here: http://tinyurl.com/2ca4cp http://tinyurl.com/38ypxx However, it IS a compromise, if a very good sounding lute, especially in gut. I have controlled the slight tendency to bass heaviness on the Gerle, by adopting Aquila Venice twine on the diapason of the 6th and on the 5th through to the 4th. This has a very good high frequency response, and has helped open out the sound, that was already very sweet, but with excellent projection. I have a Gamut gimped on the 7th. I could also have adopted a 6c lute, as these were used throughout the same period, and are often considered the ideal Renaissance lute in their poise and balance, but I hoped that using gut basses would control the the sympathetic ring of a 7c when playing 6c Milan. Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb made an excellent 8c 64 cm Rauwolf mutiribbed lute, for a guitarist who had completed, or was completing, his Masters program requirements. While this was strung in gut, the sympathetic ring of the 7 and 8c does not seem too overpowering, as can be heard in his rendering of da Milano at http://www.myspace.com/lute On the other hand, I do have to admit that when Jacob played the Siena repertoire at Caen (a year ago), he brought his 6c Andy Rutherford lute. You can see the photos of this here, by going to http://tinyurl.com/2njg45 and clicking on the thumb nails. About string length, I also asked advice on this issue from Jacob Heringman, but I can only quote from memory. This was not set down in any formal way that can actually make it truly quotable. He said he preferred longer string lengths for a solo instrument, and that anything longer than 60 has more expressive capability, 64 or 67 or even 71 were all excellent string lengths according to the player's stretch. However, he also added that the hand has a wonderful ability to adapt, and that a longer string length doesn't make the music that much harder to play (it might even be easier as you move up to higher positions on the neck). The main problem would be the pitch issue, if you play with other people. I seem to remember several lute makers saying that guitar necks were much longer than the average lute neck, and that caused no problem for guitarists. Perhaps, there is a neck-width issue, also to contend with, on modern lutes. Original lutes may have had narrower necks. I imagine string spacing must also be taken into account in relation to stretch. There was a lute meeting in London, not so long ago, two or three years, where a number of long necked Renaissance lutes, Warwick Bass lutes and C36 Venere Tenor lutes, were demonstrated with 67 cm and over string length, and I believe it was argued that many more long necked solo instruments would have existed, and that the modern tendency for 60 cm and below, may not be historical. Of course, so many large lutes have been Baroqued, and it is sometimes difficult to conjecture their original string length. I have to admit that I did chicken out and go for a 60 cm lute. Regards Anthony Le 26 nov. 07 =E0 07:24, Michael Bocchicchio a ecrit : People who have purchased lutes from me in the past have all come to me with the common wisdom that the 8c. is the standard. Why would this be? Is it true now? Was it true in the past or something like that? Furthermore, for who? A first time buyer? A graduate school student studying guitar , who will only need one lute to complete the Masters program requirements? A Renaissance Fair performer? I wonder if this notion is a holdover from a time when historical or true lutes were hard to come by and players had to chose instruments for their versatility rather than for their appropriateness for a
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
There is at least that print by Simone Molinaro, Venice 1599 (facsimile available from S.P.E.S.), if memory serves. It is a large collection of pieces, entirely written for the 8c lute. -- Mathias Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Michael, I believe that in fact 7c was standard, but they either tuned the 7th course to F or D on a G lute. The 8c is a convenient way to have both tunings on one lute, so it is sort of a standard today. People who have purchased lutes from me in the past have all come to me with the common wisdom that the 8c. is the standard. Why would this be? Is it true now? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. I don't like the recording at all and the CD is on a 'to be sold' pile. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
On Monday 26 November 2007 11:34, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: There is at least that print by Simone Molinaro, Venice 1599 (facsimile available from S.P.E.S.), if memory serves. It is a large collection of pieces, entirely written for the 8c lute. A few pieces require a 9 course instrument if I remember well. But basically it's indeed for 8 course. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Barber/Harris Site
On Monday 26 November 2007 12:30, Steven Amazeen rattled on the keyboard: Hello all, Is the Barber/Harris site http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/ offline? I have tried for several days, however I keep getting a network error message. Thanks, Steve To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html It's working and certainly not offline taco
[LUTE] Re: Barber/Harris Site
Hello, Steve! How are things with you? http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/ popped right up for me, so it appears to be running. Do you still have that nice 11 course lute? ed At 03:30 AM 11/26/2007 -0800, Steven Amazeen wrote: Hello all, Is the Barber/Harris site http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/ offline? I have tried for several days, however I keep getting a network error message. Thanks, Steve To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.7/1151 - Release Date: 11/25/2007 4:24 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I sold the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list, that for a lute novice, or the transition from guitar should preferably be to a 6c (or a 7c with the 7th removed) and playing the 1500 to ca. 1570 repertory. After a year or two, when the hands have been properly trained, and are familiar with the instrument, one could progress to 7c for a year and then 8c for a year and so on. In this way the student will have a natural progression, and at the same time get familiar with the repertory and all its characteristics for the different epochs and regional differences. The 6c will be much easier to play on, and therefore give a higher feeling of mastering it all and consequently be more rewarding. The ground work will then be set, and I believe that further development will be quicker and more effective. Others will perhaps argue, that you can remove the 7th and 8th course in the beginning and add them when progressing which is certainly an option, but I think that there are many other issues when approaching the music, which speak for playing on the right instrument. (Right number of courses, right width and breadth of neck aso. although again, some will argue that there never was any right measures, and that lutists/lutenists in those days differed as much then as they do now.) But IMV all this talk about HIP somewhat looses its meaning, if not played on an instrument for which the music was intended. I also think that much of the virtuoso polyphonic music beginning around ca. 1560 should be played on a smaller, perhaps even descant lute, as the stretches are sometimes forbidding on an instrument with a long mensur, however better the sound. So to answer your question plainly: Yes, the eight course is best suited for a short span of english and italian music in the last decade of the 16th century. The reasons for it becoming the instrument par exellence for beginners today might have something to do with the lute-revival in the early to mid 20th c. starting mainly in England, (but I'm on thin ice there), and the traditional belief thereby to be getting a versatile instrument where the advantages excel the drawbacks. If the student plans to go into lute playing seriously, and not just as a nice pastime, get a 6 - or 7c first, and that will work much better and be both more enjoyable and lead to more effective learning in the long run. If you prefer Baroque, (and this indeed seems to be the preference nowadays, at least with the posters on this list) I don't know if it would perhaps be better to get an 11 - course from the start and just learn to cope with all the extra courses, or spend a couple of years on a 6 course first, to get the bearings. As I've never played an 11 - 13 course lute, others will have to give feedback on that. IMV there is much to be gained from following the epochs consequently, starting with early Renaissance and progressing from there. The pieces are often more suited for a beginner but still musically rewarding. This way one will be able to understand the development as it occurred and probably become a more compleat musitian. B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Michael Bocchicchio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Is 8c really the standard? People who have purchased lutes from me in the past have all come to me with the common wisdom that the 8c. is the standard. Why would this be? Is it true now? Was it true in the past or something like that? Furthermore, for who? A first time buyer? A graduate school student studying guitar , who will only need one lute to complete the Masters program requirements? A Renaissance Fair performer? I wonder if this notion is a holdover from a time when historical or true lutes were hard to come by and players had to chose instruments for their versatility rather than for their appropriateness for a given period of music. In fact, it seems to me that the greater body of Renaissance lute music is for 6 and 7c instruments. Eight course music seems limited to the very end of the 16th century, and mostly English. French music
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
Dear Mathias, the liner notes say: Einige der hier eingespielten contreparties sind Manuskripten entnommen _die sich in Privatbesitz befinden._! B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] No further comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncPfYJH7cYofeature=related - Original Message - From: Omer katzir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] No comment Please kill me now... arch guitar...? my cat... On Nov 26, 2007, at 4:12 PM, G. Crona wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSb2FW0z0E To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Barber/Harris Site
At 06:30 AM 11/26/2007, Steven Amazeen wrote: Hello all, Is the Barber/Harris site http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/ offline? I have tried for several days, however I keep getting a network error message. Seems to be working for me from here. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
This subject comes up regularly here. My two yen: There is hardly anything written specifically for 8 course that cannot be played on 7 course. There is far more music for 7 course than 8 course. 7 course is easier than 8 course. You just have to have a little awareness of what your 7th is tuned to so that you don't begin a piece and discover that the 7th is at the wrong pitch half way through the piece. I usually write tuning reminders on the set list or arrange it in an obvious way so that like tunings are together. cheers, On Nov 26, 2007, at 9:48 PM, G. Crona wrote: Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I sold the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list, that for a lute novice, or the transition from guitar should preferably be to a 6c (or a 7c with the 7th removed) and playing the 1500 to ca. 1570 repertory. After a year or two, when the hands have been properly trained, and are familiar with the instrument, one could progress to 7c for a year and then 8c for a year and so on. In this way the student will have a natural progression, and at the same time get familiar with the repertory and all its characteristics for the different epochs and regional differences. The 6c will be much easier to play on, and therefore give a higher feeling of mastering it all and consequently be more rewarding. The ground work will then be set, and I believe that further development will be quicker and more effective. Others will perhaps argue, that you can remove the 7th and 8th course in the beginning and add them when progressing which is certainly an option, but I think that there are many other issues when approaching the music, which speak for playing on the right instrument. (Right number of courses, right width and breadth of neck aso. although again, some will argue that there never was any right measures, and that lutists/lutenists in those days differed as much then as they do now.) But IMV all this talk about HIP somewhat looses its meaning, if not played on an instrument for which the music was intended. I also think that much of the virtuoso polyphonic music beginning around ca. 1560 should be played on a smaller, perhaps even descant lute, as the stretches are sometimes forbidding on an instrument with a long mensur, however better the sound. So to answer your question plainly: Yes, the eight course is best suited for a short span of english and italian music in the last decade of the 16th century. The reasons for it becoming the instrument par exellence for beginners today might have something to do with the lute-revival in the early to mid 20th c. starting mainly in England, (but I'm on thin ice there), and the traditional belief thereby to be getting a versatile instrument where the advantages excel the drawbacks. If the student plans to go into lute playing seriously, and not just as a nice pastime, get a 6 - or 7c first, and that will work much better and be both more enjoyable and lead to more effective learning in the long run. If you prefer Baroque, (and this indeed seems to be the preference nowadays, at least with the posters on this list) I don't know if it would perhaps be better to get an 11 - course from the start and just learn to cope with all the extra courses, or spend a couple of years on a 6 course first, to get the bearings. As I've never played an 11 - 13 course lute, others will have to give feedback on that. IMV there is much to be gained from following the epochs consequently, starting with early Renaissance and progressing from there. The pieces are often more suited for a beginner but still musically rewarding. This way one will be able to understand the development as it occurred and probably become a more compleat musitian. B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Michael Bocchicchio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Is 8c really the standard? People who have purchased lutes from me in the past have all come to me with the common wisdom that the 8c. is the standard. Why would this be?
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
May be the other contrepartie has been ''(re)constructed'' ;-)) ? Jurek On 2007-11-26, at 18:08, Arthur Ness wrote: Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
- Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? The only down side to that point of view is that occasionally you have to re-tune the seventh course and finger notes that would normally be played open. Other than that you are correct. My Lady Hunsdon's Puff, or Puss depending on which interpretation of ancient spelling you adhere to, is a good example. Most of S. Molinaro's music is another where having eight courses is an advantage---but who is counting? VW - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? This subject comes up regularly here. My two yen: There is hardly anything written specifically for 8 course that cannot be played on 7 course. There is far more music for 7 course than 8 course. 7 course is easier than 8 course. You just have to have a little awareness of what your 7th is tuned to so that you don't begin a piece and discover that the 7th is at the wrong pitch half way through the piece. I usually write tuning reminders on the set list or arrange it in an obvious way so that like tunings are together. cheers, On Nov 26, 2007, at 9:48 PM, G. Crona wrote: Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I sold the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list, that for a lute novice, or the transition from guitar should preferably be to a 6c (or a 7c with the 7th removed) and playing the 1500 to ca. 1570 repertory. After a year or two, when the hands have been properly trained, and are familiar with the instrument, one could progress to 7c for a year and then 8c for a year and so on. In this way the student will have a natural progression, and at the same time get familiar with the repertory and all its characteristics for the different epochs and regional differences. The 6c will be much easier to play on, and therefore give a higher feeling of mastering it all and consequently be more rewarding. The ground work will then be set, and I believe that further development will be quicker and more effective. Others will perhaps argue, that you can remove the 7th and 8th course in the beginning and add them when progressing which is certainly an option, but I think that there are many other issues when approaching the music, which speak for playing on the right instrument. (Right number of courses, right width and breadth of neck aso. although again, some will argue that there never was any right measures, and that lutists/lutenists in those days differed as much then as they do now.) But IMV all this talk about HIP somewhat looses its meaning, if not played on an instrument for which the music was intended. I also think that much of the virtuoso polyphonic music beginning around ca. 1560 should be played on a smaller, perhaps even descant lute, as the stretches are sometimes forbidding on an instrument with a long mensur, however better the sound. So to answer your question plainly: Yes, the eight course is best suited for a short span of english and italian music in the last decade of the 16th century. The reasons for it becoming the instrument par exellence for beginners today might have something to do with the lute-revival in the early to mid 20th c. starting mainly in England, (but I'm on thin ice there), and the traditional belief thereby to be getting a versatile instrument where the advantages excel the drawbacks. If the student plans to go into lute playing seriously, and not just as a nice pastime, get a 6 - or 7c first, and that will work much better and be both more enjoyable and lead to more effective learning in the long run. If you prefer Baroque, (and this indeed seems to be the preference nowadays, at least with the posters on this list) I don't know if it would perhaps be better to get an 11 - course from the start and just learn to cope with all the extra courses, or spend a couple of years on a 6 course first, to
[LUTE] Palmer orpharion images
Dear Alexander, Many thanks for your table showing the temperaments arising from the fretting of the Palmer orpharion. Would it help if you compiled the table with the Courier font, like I do for musical examples? It is a monospaced font, so you shouldn't get variations from one computer to another. It would be easier for the eye to take in how close the instrument is to equal temperament, or otherwise, if equal temperament appeared in a column next to 1/8th comma, not next to 1/4 comma meantone which is furthest away in terms of temperament. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:28 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Palmer orpharion images Dear all, I do apologise that the table appears to have been corrupted (well, it was absolutely fine though in plain text format on my computer ...!?). I'll try to rearrange it somehow and send again. Peter, thanks very much for your personal email. I'll wait for more details from you about the fret distances. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
Dear Michael, G=F6ran all: While G=F6ran gives an eloquent summary of our received notion of the development multiple courses on lutes throughout the 16th century, there is evidence that the matter was not quite so clearly defined. No surprise. H. Colin Slim, in his excellent article, 'Musicians on Parnassus,' (Studies in the Renaissance, Vol. 12 (1965), pp. 134-163) describes the poem Monte Parnasso by Philippo Oriolo da Bassano. Bassano appears to outdo Rabelais' Pantagruel in the art of name-dropping within the poem, which Slim dates to circa 1519-1522. Cantos XIX, XX and XXI name several theorists, composers and instrumentalists, including Spinacino and Francesco da Milano, Canto XX describes a contest between two lutenists playing lutes with 13 and 17 strings. Presumably, the poet was counting individual strings of the courses. Slim notes that Sebastian Virdung also mentions lutes with fourteen strings as early as 1511. We seem to have a collective need to create neat categories and a progression of events for historical music but the real story is always less systematic and more complex. Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:48:43 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I s! old the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list, that for a lute novice, or the transition from guitar should preferably be to a 6c (or a 7c with the 7th removed) and playing the 1500 to ca. 1570 repertory. After a year or two, when the hands have been properly trained, and are familiar with the instrument, one could progress to 7c for a year and then 8c for a year and so on. In this way the student will have a natural progression, and at the same time get familiar with the repertory and all its characteristics for the different epochs and regional differences. The 6c will be much easier to play on, and therefore give a higher feeling of mastering it all and consequently be more rewarding. The ground work will then be set, and I believe that further development will be quicker and more effective. Others will perhaps argue, that you can remove the 7th and 8th course in the beginning and add them when progressing wh! ich is certainly an option, but I think that there are many o! ther iss ues when approaching the music, which speak for playing on the right instrument. (Right number of courses, right width and breadth of neck aso. although again, some will argue that there never was any right measures, and that lutists/lutenists in those days differed as much then as they do now.) But IMV all this talk about HIP somewhat looses its meaning, if not played on an instrument for which the music was intended. I also think that much of the virtuoso polyphonic music beginning around ca. 1560 should be played on a smaller, perhaps even descant lute, as the stretches are sometimes forbidding on an instrument with a long mensur, however better the sound. So to answer your question plainly: Yes, the eight course is best suited for a short span of english and italian music in the last decade of the 16th century. The reasons for it becoming the instrument par exellence for beginners today might have something to do with the lute-revival in the early t! o mid 20th c. starting mainly in England, (but I'm on thin ice there), and the traditional belief thereby to be getting a versatile instrument where the advantages excel the drawbacks. If the student plans to go into lute playing seriously, and not just as a nice pastime, get a 6 - or 7c first, and that will work much better and be both more enjoyable and lead to more effective learning in the long run. If you prefer Baroque, (and this indeed seems to be the preference nowadays, at least with the posters on this list) I don't know if it would perhaps be better to get an 11 - course from the start and just learn to cope with all the extra courses, or spend a couple of years on a 6 course first, to get the bearings. As I've never played an 11 -
[LUTE] Is 8c really the standard?
Dear All, Unlike many of the contributors to this thread, I don't have a problem with 8-course lutes. They suit Terzi and Molinaro, of course, but you can use them to play earlier music like Capirola, and to some extent later music where nine or ten courses are required. If you want to buy many instruments, by all means buy a 6-course for Milano, a 7-course for (some) Dowland, an 8-course for Terzi, a 9-course for Francisque, a 10-course for Vallet, and then splash out on an 11-course for Mouton, a 12-course for Wilson, and a 13-course for Weiss. Why stop there? Why not spend a few more thousand quid on various sorts of theorbo and archlute, and throw in a mandora or two? If, instead, you want to compromise, and not fill your house with lutes, simply buy one 8-course lute, at least to start with. Having low F and D as open strings is useful for Dowland, you don't have the complexities of a lute with lots of strings, and you can happily play anything from the 16th century. If a note is too low for one's instrument, either play it an octave higher, or re-tune the lowest course down a tone (e.g. 8th-course D to C), as Capirola did (from 6th-course G to F). More significant than the number of strings, is the tuning of the strings, i.e. whether or not to tune the 4th and 5th courses in octaves. That makes far more difference to the sound than the number of courses. If I might add to what Ron has written, the heart-shaped Pesaro manuscript copied in the 15th century, contains music for a 7-course instrument; the music in Osborn fb7 is for a 7-course lute, and dates from about 1630. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Do we have any evidence of a 16th- or 17th-century lutenist refusing to play a piece, because his lute had one or two courses more than necessary? Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Bocchicchio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:42 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Dear Michael, G=F6ran all: While G=F6ran gives an eloquent summary of our received notion of the development multiple courses on lutes throughout the 16th century, there is evidence that the matter was not quite so clearly defined. No surprise. H. Colin Slim, in his excellent article, 'Musicians on Parnassus,' (Studies in the Renaissance, Vol. 12 (1965), pp. 134-163) describes the poem Monte Parnasso by Philippo Oriolo da Bassano. Bassano appears to outdo Rabelais' Pantagruel in the art of name-dropping within the poem, which Slim dates to circa 1519-1522. Cantos XIX, XX and XXI name several theorists, composers and instrumentalists, including Spinacino and Francesco da Milano, Canto XX describes a contest between two lutenists playing lutes with 13 and 17 strings. Presumably, the poet was counting individual strings of the courses. Slim notes that Sebastian Virdung also mentions lutes with fourteen strings as early as 1511. We seem to have a collective need to create neat categories and a progression of events for historical music but the real story is always less systematic and more complex. Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:48:43 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I s! old the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list, that for a lute novice, or the transition from guitar should preferably be to a 6c (or a 7c with the 7th removed) and playing the 1500 to ca. 1570 repertory. After a year or two, when the hands have been properly trained, and are familiar with the instrument, one could progress to 7c for a year and then 8c for a year and so on. In this way the student will have a natural progression, and at the same time get familiar with the repertory and all its characteristics for the different epochs and regional differences. The 6c will be much easier to play on, and therefore give a higher feeling of mastering it all and
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
I agree fully with Stewart. Although there is more music for 7 course and 9 course lutes as compared to 8 course lutes, an 8 course is a good compromise. I have that very instrument, an 8 course. A great majority of the music for which I use that instrument is for 7 course, but it is so very convenient to have both a low F _and_ D, so I do not have to re-tune the 7th course. I also sometimes put octaves on both the 4th and 5th course, so I can play Continental 6 course music. In gut, it sound absolutely no different from other 6 course lutes in gut. ed At 11:54 PM 11/26/2007 +, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear All, Unlike many of the contributors to this thread, I don't have a problem with 8-course lutes. They suit Terzi and Molinaro, of course, but you can use them to play earlier music like Capirola, and to some extent later music where nine or ten courses are required. If you want to buy many instruments, by all means buy a 6-course for Milano, a 7-course for (some) Dowland, an 8-course for Terzi, a 9-course for Francisque, a 10-course for Vallet, and then splash out on an 11-course for Mouton, a 12-course for Wilson, and a 13-course for Weiss. Why stop there? Why not spend a few more thousand quid on various sorts of theorbo and archlute, and throw in a mandora or two? If, instead, you want to compromise, and not fill your house with lutes, simply buy one 8-course lute, at least to start with. Having low F and D as open strings is useful for Dowland, you don't have the complexities of a lute with lots of strings, and you can happily play anything from the 16th century. If a note is too low for one's instrument, either play it an octave higher, or re-tune the lowest course down a tone (e.g. 8th-course D to C), as Capirola did (from 6th-course G to F). More significant than the number of strings, is the tuning of the strings, i.e. whether or not to tune the 4th and 5th courses in octaves. That makes far more difference to the sound than the number of courses. If I might add to what Ron has written, the heart-shaped Pesaro manuscript copied in the 15th century, contains music for a 7-course instrument; the music in Osborn fb7 is for a 7-course lute, and dates from about 1630. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Do we have any evidence of a 16th- or 17th-century lutenist refusing to play a piece, because his lute had one or two courses more than necessary? Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Bocchicchio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:42 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Dear Michael, G=F6ran all: While G=F6ran gives an eloquent summary of our received notion of the development multiple courses on lutes throughout the 16th century, there is evidence that the matter was not quite so clearly defined. No surprise. H. Colin Slim, in his excellent article, 'Musicians on Parnassus,' (Studies in the Renaissance, Vol. 12 (1965), pp. 134-163) describes the poem Monte Parnasso by Philippo Oriolo da Bassano. Bassano appears to outdo Rabelais' Pantagruel in the art of name-dropping within the poem, which Slim dates to circa 1519-1522. Cantos XIX, XX and XXI name several theorists, composers and instrumentalists, including Spinacino and Francesco da Milano, Canto XX describes a contest between two lutenists playing lutes with 13 and 17 strings. Presumably, the poet was counting individual strings of the courses. Slim notes that Sebastian Virdung also mentions lutes with fourteen strings as early as 1511. We seem to have a collective need to create neat categories and a progression of events for historical music but the real story is always less systematic and more complex. Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:48:43 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I s! old the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list,
[LUTE] Re: Angelo Barricelli in concerto - invito
A lowly piece of mine (AKA #111 at http://www.torban.org/sarmaticae) will be performed by Angelo Barricelli in his own guitar transcription, in Turin on the 30th of November (there is a poster at http://masaccio.livejournal.com/59097.html), if there is any potentially interested lutenetter in the vicinity- Progetto Leonardo Onlus presenta: Concerto di Angelo Barricelli Prima parte J.Dowland - Tarleton's riserrectione Mrs.Winter's jump The frog galliard T.O'Carolan - Colonel John Irwin O'Carolan's draught Sir Charles Coote O'Carolan's farewell to music George Brabazon (first air-second air) Dolly Mac Donough R.Turovsky - Variazioni sopra Zibralysja Vsi Burlaky F.Bottai - Giullaresque The dream of the sad minstrel Il vento fra i pini d'autunno Gulliverdance A.Barrios - La Catedral - andante religioso - allegro solemne Seconda parte F.Tarrega - Pavana Maria (gavota) Gran Vals A.Piazzolla - Milonga de l'Angel Verano Porteno I.Albeniz - Asturias R.Fabbri - Notte a Belgrado Hammam Dance for Dale Info: Cappella dei Mercanti http://www.cappelladeimercanti.it via Garibaldi 25 - Torino inzio ore 21:00 Tel.: 011/8170469 Cell.:3382618569 eMail.: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
Right on, Ed! The lute that I call a double 7 (It's NOT an 8 course!). A great majority of the music for which I use that instrument is for 7 course, but it is so very convenient to have both a low F _and_ D, so I do not have to re-tune the 7th course. I also sometimes put octaves on both the 4th and 5th course, so I can play Continental 6 course music. In gut, it sound absolutely no different from other 6 course lutes in gut. ed I know that lute. Works for everything, you lucky bastard. The slippery slope Vincenzo Galilei was warning us about when I posted on the way to 14 course Hell Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear All, Unlike many of the contributors to this thread, I don't have a problem with 8-course lutes. They suit Terzi and Molinaro, of course, but you can use them to play earlier music like Capirola, and to some extent later music where nine or ten courses are required. If you want to buy many instruments, by all means buy a 6-course for Milano, a 7-course for (some) Dowland, an 8-course for Terzi, a 9-course for Francisque, a 10-course for Vallet, and then splash out on an 11-course for Mouton, a 12-course for Wilson, and a 13-course for Weiss. Why stop there? Why not spend a few more thousand quid on various sorts of theorbo and archlute, and throw in a mandora or two? On the other hand, why not indeed? Part of being human is our love of too many toys- look at old Ray Fugger- and he only had 6 course instruments! I well remember the days when I just lusted for a single lute- it had to be 8 course for all the usual reasons as well as 60 cm to get as far away from guitar as possible. Now some of us have piles of lutes, and even include 70 cm 6 course lutes in E; what goes around comes around- sort of. I am right now babysitting a friend's collection while he is out of town- 2 six courses, an 8, 10, 11, 13, four acoustic and on electric guitar. No 7's or 9's- what's wrong with that guy? Cheap? But there are also several archcritters, of course. We're not that bad if we compare ourselves to Jerry Seinfeld and his car collection, among other obsessive compulsives. Don't ask about my archery stash, or my friend's watch clock pile. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Free Lute Classes
Free Lute Classes 2007-2008 Voices of Music is rolling out its free lute classes for 2007-2008 The classes are directed by David Tayler, additional faculty are brought in for some topics. These classes are absolutely free; however, enrollment is limited. Wednesday December 19 2007 The Art of Continuo An evening workshop devoted to playing continuo on the lute. The focus will be on how to play unfigured bass, which is the majority of the 17th century repertory, and voice leading. For lute, theorbo, archlute baroque guitar. Time: 6:00 pm Menu: In addition to an assortment of Artisan Cheeses, there will be a wine tasting of California Zinfandels. Early arrivers are invited to join in the barbecue of all kinds of local sausages. Vegetarian and vegan food provided on a separate grill. Wednesday February 6 2008 Dowland Lute Songs A specialty class in Dowland by a Dowland specialist. Emphasis on the forms of the poetry and the relationship to the musical setting. For lute voice. Lutes at all pitches. Time: 6:00 pm Menu: A Tasting of rare and flavourful single malt Scotches paired with Stilton cheese. Dark chocolates. Wednesday March 5 2008 Renaissance Ornamentation What it is; how to play it. The major treatises. Time: 6:00 pm Menu The evening's wine tasting will feature California Pinot Noir from Sonoma paired with Dutch Cheeses. Early arrivers are invited to join in the barbecue of Wild Sockeye Salmon. Vegetarian and vegan food provided on a separate grill. Emphasis on lute; open to all singers and instrumentalists. To enroll please send an email. You will receive a confirmation email, space permitting. Overflow dates: In the event of high demand, an overflow class will be scheduled for the next day. Out-of- towners will be provided a lute or theorbo if they so desire. These classes and many other projects are funded by Voices of Music, a nonprofit organization that supports performers and provides concerts, videos recordings. To fund a class or project, or to just make a donation, drop us a line or visit us on the web. www.voicesofmusic.org David Tayler To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Free Lute Classes
PS Please reply off list if interested. Please indicate which class you would like. my email [EMAIL PROTECTED] We are in Northern California. dt At 05:50 PM 11/26/2007, you wrote: Free Lute Classes 2007-2008 Voices of Music is rolling out its free lute classes for 2007-2008 The classes are directed by David Tayler, additional faculty are brought in for some topics. These classes are absolutely free; however, enrollment is limited. Wednesday December 19 2007 The Art of Continuo An evening workshop devoted to playing continuo on the lute. The focus will be on how to play unfigured bass, which is the majority of the 17th century repertory, and voice leading. For lute, theorbo, archlute baroque guitar. Time: 6:00 pm Menu: In addition to an assortment of Artisan Cheeses, there will be a wine tasting of California Zinfandels. Early arrivers are invited to join in the barbecue of all kinds of local sausages. Vegetarian and vegan food provided on a separate grill. Wednesday February 6 2008 Dowland Lute Songs A specialty class in Dowland by a Dowland specialist. Emphasis on the forms of the poetry and the relationship to the musical setting. For lute voice. Lutes at all pitches. Time: 6:00 pm Menu: A Tasting of rare and flavourful single malt Scotches paired with Stilton cheese. Dark chocolates. Wednesday March 5 2008 Renaissance Ornamentation What it is; how to play it. The major treatises. Time: 6:00 pm Menu The evening's wine tasting will feature California Pinot Noir from Sonoma paired with Dutch Cheeses. Early arrivers are invited to join in the barbecue of Wild Sockeye Salmon. Vegetarian and vegan food provided on a separate grill. Emphasis on lute; open to all singers and instrumentalists. To enroll please send an email. You will receive a confirmation email, space permitting. Overflow dates: In the event of high demand, an overflow class will be scheduled for the next day. Out-of- towners will be provided a lute or theorbo if they so desire. These classes and many other projects are funded by Voices of Music, a nonprofit organization that supports performers and provides concerts, videos recordings. To fund a class or project, or to just make a donation, drop us a line or visit us on the web. www.voicesofmusic.org David Tayler To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
