[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...
Yes, I'm perfectly capable of doing this -- in fact that's how I've made all my previous lutes -- my question was IS there a way to do this? -- On 05/02/2008, alexandros tzimeros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just use your hand and eyes... -Original Message- From: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute body... Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
ie a single reentrant small theorbo - but there's still 'discontinuties' but now between the first and second MH Roland Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about a lowered 1st on what we would otherwise consider a large archlute? I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni ms.) that does not use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first course was problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. pieces w/o chanterelle) and may have been replaced with a string an octave lower for both continuo and solo pieces. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:36 PM To: Jerzy Zak; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? Jurek, There are many problematic areas in regard to this matter. I believe that the most satisfactory solution is the second course in octaves since it seems sometimes to act as a normal low string and sometimes like it in the high octave. I've been playing around with this for the past month or so (on my toy) and its quite musically worthwhile. (For the record, I've got my octave string in the upper position like a baroque guitar.) We're forgetting about Melli. Without the octave 2nd, there are whole pieces that disintegrate into annoying leaps. Take these examples from the 'Corrente detta la Strasinata per la Tiorba' from his Libro Quinto of 1620. The piece opens with a 16th-note run from the 1st course to the second. Fine for standard double re-entrant tuning. In bar 6, however, there is a trill (marked T) above the dotted quarter on the open second course. The real problem comes with the fact that the trill also has a written-out termination. There are two 16ths: a '3' on the third course followed by a '0' on the second course which leads into a '1' in the next measure. How to make sense of this leap up a minor seventh smack in the middle of the concentrated gesture of rapid neighboring tones that make up a trill? The idea of the thing going something like FEFEFEFEFE - D up a 7th - E down a 7th - F in the space of about a second is ludicrous. And if Melli really wanted the D as part of the figure, why not just write an open 5th course? These sorts of trills happen all over. The figure at m.12 is problematic for standard re-entrant tuning as well. There is another four-note run in 16ths. In this case the run begins on an open second course and continues down to '3-2-0' on the third course. A leap up a minor seventh for no reason. Why not just write '5-3-2-0'? So far we might be able to argue that the piece, although labeled per la Tiorba has in fact been written for a lute or theorbo with only one or no re-entrant strings (then not a theorbo at all, of course). Measure 20 presents problems with this solution. Here there is a typical theorbo-ism - a 16th-note run divided between strings. The figure begins with a '3-1' on course 3, continues to a '1' on the 1st course, and moves on to a '2' on the 4th course before finishing with a '1' back on the 1st course. Such a figure would be pointless in lute tuning. Why not write those 1st course '1's' as '3's' on the 3rd course? Is single re-entrant tuning intended? There are problems with that, especially with what follows. The piece ends with a nice set of sequences using the 16th-note figure: m. 22 - '3-1-0' on course 1; '3' on course 2 m. 24 - '0' course 2; '3-2-0' course 3 m. 26 - '3-1-0' course 3; '2' course 4 m. 27 - '3-1-0' course 2; '3' course 3 m. 28 - '0' course 1; '3-2-0' course 2, incidentally ending with '0' on the 5th course. This happens in the short space of a few measures within ONE piece by Melli. Many more such examples abound. Clearly he thought of the second course as musically neighboring either the first course, third course, OR 4th course. I've found that having the octave string closest to the third course allows me to sometimes emphasize the lower octave and sometimes the higher one. (Having it closest to the 1st course made it difficult to bring out the low octave). Its been fun working with it. And of course it works nicely for Pittoni, too! Chris --- Jerzy Zak wrote: Martyn, Indeed, the Liste archives give ample exemples the 'Pittoni case' is an unsolved problem. Of course you know, the problem is not only on page 43, but on almost every page of this interesting from several points of view publication. I've played in concert one of the sonatas and have a score of it, and now I've examined the whole volume again. There are several types of scalic passages. The ones before cadences with lips of a seventh presents no problem at all, they are idiomatic to any instrument of the time. But there are many others which are broken around the second course. Some are explicable by common practice of braking passages, say, like in transcriptions from one medium to another - eg. JS Bach's own converting traverso flute part to a flauto dolce part in one [or more] of his cantata, or many
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
I mention page 43 because It seems to encapsulate most of the perceived 'problems' in Pittoni and, with the link from the previous phrase, does suggest that he well understood the implications of the low second course when he choose to do so; especially note that here he isn't too 'lazy' to get the 'correct' register. As said, rather like with the contemporary guitar, the 'Old Ones' (or at least some Italians) didn't seem obsessed with always continuing a line in the same octave and may, as with other instrumental music, have positively liked it as a compositional effect. Regarding just ONE theorbo: I very much agree that there are different sizes: principally related to single or double reentrant and to usage (solo or basso continuo use) and some variation due to local pitch. The previous discussions were principally about the size of instruments used by accomplished/professional musicians for continuo work for which the large theorbo (perhaps with only 8 tied frets) is necessary. MH Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn, Indeed, the Liste archives give ample exemples the 'Pittoni case' is an unsolved problem. Of course you know, the problem is not only on page 43, but on almost every page of this interesting from several points of view publication. I've played in concert one of the sonatas and have a score of it, and now I've examined the whole volume again. There are several types of scalic passages. The ones before cadences with lips of a seventh presents no problem at all, they are idiomatic to any instrument of the time. But there are many others which are broken around the second course. Some are explicable by common practice of braking passages, say, like in transcriptions from one medium to another - eg. JS Bach's own converting traverso flute part to a flauto dolce part in one [or more] of his cantata, or many adaptations of violin music to a traverso flute in the XVIIIth C. But some others seems less hit home and it's either Pittoni's laziness to get the 'proper' tone on the 3rd c. in high position or he had the second in octave. In this case a matter of 'taste' in evaluation is inevitable... On the other hand Pittoni is a virtuoso and he knows well the very 'tiorbistic' campanella devises and is using them readily, often high, using the 1st, the 3rd and the 4th c. (but I spoted also campanella with 2nd). Sometime the campanellas are just neighbouring with the 'spoiled' scalic passages ...In fact almost any possible situation you can finde on the 44 + 40 pages of quite dense music. There is no point for citations, it would have to be a long paper including a fair number of statistics - not for a mailing liste. I do not have an easy answer but I feel the second course in octave would greatly _pacify_ most situations, at the same time not creating a bright conflict in passing from the 1st to the 2nd c. As to the sonic qualities of the so called 'toy theorbo', as I sad, it would be a sort of 'big baroque lute' (a tone lower), nothing, really nothing strange. Besides, I have some other observation on music of the time and lutenists/theorbists position within, which may add life to the concept. How much of such solo music survived? - you know, very little. And why? Becouse virtuosos might play anything at hand, including the violin music. Having an instrument in A with 2nd c. with the high octave - well, a hipothetical instrument - one can play straight from the violin part, it will just sound and octave lower, without any transposition. The same of course may concern an archlute players. Look for example at Maurizio Cazzati, ''Correnti, e balletti per sonare nella spinetta, leuto, o tiorba; overo violino, e violone, col secondo violino a beneplacito '' opera XXX, Bologna 1662. Obviously, only string parts in music notation exists. Italians on the list may help, but for now I understand it as if Cazzati created his pieces for 'spinetta, leuto, o tiorba', which now one can play them on bowed strings, too. Worth to bring back at this point is the Harrah/Spencer MS with Italian anon. archlute concerti notated in treble (solos) or bass (continuo) clef on one staff, or SL Weiss able to play 'violin concerti straight from their notation' (Baron). Anyway, the exchange of repertoire seems to me almost axiomatic at the time. No need to publish it in tablature. The less paper and transmission techniques, the better. In the end they were improvising much more then we now. Perhaps then, there is no just ONE 'theorbo'? Thanks for yours and Others attention to this longish epistle, Jurek ___ On 2008-02-04, at 10:51, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you Jerzy. I take it you're referring to the hypothesis that the occasional leap in a scalic passage played on the 2nd and 3rd course of a double reentrant theorbo (say, as found in Pittoni 1669, eg last bar page 43 in da Chiesa volume) might possibly
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...
Yes, there is a way, Most luteforms are build up from circles. There is a section in Robert Lundberg's Historical Lute construction about this. You can get it from stewmac.com or maybe even amazon. Ernstjan van Geest - Luthier van Geest Gitaar Luitbouw - Hasselt, Belgium www.vangeest.be 011 / 33.16.91 -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: dinsdag 5 februari 2008 9:00 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body... Yes, I'm perfectly capable of doing this -- in fact that's how I've made all my previous lutes -- my question was IS there a way to do this? -- On 05/02/2008, alexandros tzimeros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just use your hand and eyes... -Original Message- From: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute body... Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord-making friend, Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of his harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed a couple of interesting points: 1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as found north of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I didn't. Can anyone contribute something here? 2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website, discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently gut-strung, like the lautenclavier: http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorbino.htm - I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one if the first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive... Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of interest to some here. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Peter Obviously I meant tempo - four time-units in one bar of the Pavan is similar to the three time-units in one bar of the Galliard. This gives an impression that the pulse keeps almost unchanged in triple time. However the steps of the Galliard are much more vigorous. It depends on the dancers, but some of them may show big virtuosity in elaborating their display. We can't give exact metronomic values to denote Galliard's tempo because it varied depending on time and country, but the proportions between Pavan and Galliard remained almost the same. As I said before I doubt very much if Dowland's Galliards served anybody for dancing ever. And for the same reason the proportion between his Pavan and Galliard doesn't need to be observed so rigorously. These were purely instrumental pieces. The dance form remake was popularly used in the history of music. The music literature abounds with such examples up to our times. For instance nobody would dance Chopin Mazurkas. But earlier writers mentioned similar practices. Ch. Burney in Music in Germany, London,1773, p.162 writes: The Polish nobleman would gladly give me a specimen of the violin music of his country, as it depended so much on the coup d'archet, that seeing it on paper, without hearing it performed, would afford but a very imperfect idea of it. The Pole added that the kind of music which we call Polonaise, is played quicker for dancing than at other times Best regards Jaroslaw _ From: Peter Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:40 AM To: Jaros'aw Lipski Cc: Lute Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Do you really mean this? Dowland galliards played at the same pulse as his pavans are going to seem VERY slow. P On 04/02/2008, Jaros'aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now, back to Melancholy Galliard. There is a misconception concerning this dance saying that when it goes with its pair - Pavan- the later is slow and the former brisk and rapid. In fact the pulse of both is exactly the same with the only difference that Pavan goes in rhythm of four in a bar which equals three in a bar of Galliard. However the dancers change from stately movements of Pavin to very fast steps of a Galliard and this is the reason why people describe it as the fast dance. -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
FWIW, I play Pittoni with first two courses down, but refinger some passages to make 'more sense' in a melodic way. I'm aware that it is my sense, not Pittoni's, that I'm adjusting the music to. Here I am reminded of a wise lesson of Bob Spencer: Any alteration you make in an original, you should do with red pencil. Red, because everytime you play the passage, you should be reminded it's not as it was printed, so you should rethink your earlier decision. Pencil, because you can erase it again when you've come to your senses and understand the original better. A humbling lesson. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roland Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? Roland, There are also John Wilson's pieces and other English works that just use the single re-entrant tuning. Unfortunately for Melli and Pittoni, this may solve extremely disjunct voice leading problems in some places but it will create more problems in others. In Pittoni and Melli, the second course is musically somehow both ABOVE the third course and BELOW the first. Its also above the fourth course. Descending melodic lines may begin on the 3rd course, continue down to the 1st course and then proceed to the 2nd course. In other contexts (often within the same piece) lines can begin on the 2nd course and continue downwards to the 3rd course. In still other cases, we find that runs begin on the 2nd course and continue to the 5th course. Obviously, things go the opposite way when dealing with ascending lines... In this repertoire, the situation is in fact 100% clear: the 2nd course always eschews obfuscation except when it does the opposite, which is true in all cases. :-) Chris --- Roland Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about a lowered 1st on what we would otherwise consider a large archlute? I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni ms.) that does not use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first course was problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. pieces w/o chanterelle) and may have been replaced with a string an octave lower for both continuo and solo pieces. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:36 PM To: Jerzy Zak; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? Jurek, There are many problematic areas in regard to this matter. I believe that the most satisfactory solution is the second course in octaves since it seems sometimes to act as a normal low string and sometimes like it in the high octave. I've been playing around with this for the past month or so (on my toy) and its quite musically worthwhile. (For the record, I've got my octave string in the upper position like a baroque guitar.) We're forgetting about Melli. Without the octave 2nd, there are whole pieces that disintegrate into annoying leaps. Take these examples from the 'Corrente detta la Strasinata per la Tiorba' from his Libro Quinto of 1620. The piece opens with a 16th-note run from the 1st course to the second. Fine for standard double re-entrant tuning. In bar 6, however, there is a trill (marked T) above the dotted quarter on the open second course. The real problem comes with the fact that the trill also has a written-out termination. There are two 16ths: a '3' on the third course followed by a '0' on the second course which leads into a '1' in the next measure. How to make sense of this leap up a minor seventh smack in the middle of the concentrated gesture of rapid neighboring tones that make up a trill? The idea of the thing going something like FEFEFEFEFE - D up a 7th - E down a 7th - F in the space of about a second is ludicrous. And if Melli really wanted the D as part of the figure, why not just write an open 5th course? These sorts of trills happen all over. The figure at m.12 is problematic for standard re-entrant tuning as well. There is another four-note run in 16ths. In this case the run begins on an open second course and continues down to '3-2-0' on the third course. A leap up a minor seventh for no reason. Why not just write '5-3-2-0'? So far we might be able to argue that the piece, although labeled per la Tiorba has in fact been written for a lute or theorbo with only one or no re-entrant strings (then not a theorbo at all, of course). Measure 20 presents problems with this solution. Here there is a typical theorbo-ism - a 16th-note run divided between strings. The figure begins with a '3-1' on course 3, continues to a '1' on the 1st course, and moves on to a '2' on the 4th course before finishing with a '1' back on the 1st course. Such a figure would be pointless in lute tuning. Why not write those 1st course '1's' as '3's' on the 3rd
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...
Dear Duncan, There are several different systems. I believe I was the first to realise this could be done and that it was probably the basis of historical lute design in my (very) brief article in The Lute Society Journal number 15 in 1973. (available via their website http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/journal.htm) This would certainly give you the outline of the method Subsequently some historical lutes were analysed in versions of this way by Kevin Coates in his book Geometry, Proportion and the Art of Lutherie (1991)and by an addendum in Mark Lindley's book Lutes, Viols and Temperaments (1984) (ISBN: 0521246709) In fact of course I was not the first, that honour falls to Arnault of Zwolle in about 1450 in his section on medieval lute design of his manuscript now in Paris which was reproduced and discussed in an article by Ian Harwood in The Lute Society Journal number 2 in 1960. The manuscript has some problematic areas which I tried to address in my talk to the Lute Society which is reprinted in their newsletter number 69 (April 2004) Best wishes, David At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote: Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob. Jurek ___ On 2008-02-05, at 10:55, Rob Lute wrote: I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord- making friend, Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of his harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed a couple of interesting points: 1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as found north of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I didn't. Can anyone contribute something here? 2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website, discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently gut-strung, like the lautenclavier: http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/ The_tiorbino.htm - I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one if the first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive... Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of interest to some here. Rob MacKillop To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...
Many thanks David, I've just ordered a copy of this! --- On 05/02/2008, David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Duncan, There are several different systems. I believe I was the first to realise this could be done and that it was probably the basis of historical lute design in my (very) brief article in The Lute Society Journal number 15 in 1973. (available via their website http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/journal.htm) This would certainly give you the outline of the method Subsequently some historical lutes were analysed in versions of this way by Kevin Coates in his book Geometry, Proportion and the Art of Lutherie (1991)and by an addendum in Mark Lindley's book Lutes, Viols and Temperaments (1984) (ISBN: 0521246709) In fact of course I was not the first, that honour falls to Arnault of Zwolle in about 1450 in his section on medieval lute design of his manuscript now in Paris which was reproduced and discussed in an article by Ian Harwood in The Lute Society Journal number 2 in 1960. The manuscript has some problematic areas which I tried to address in my talk to the Lute Society which is reprinted in their newsletter number 69 (April 2004) Best wishes, David At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote: Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk --
[LUTE] Playing in time
Dear Peter, Jaroslaw is quite right to say that galliards were played at different speeds. I think the same could apply to many dance forms, the saraband being perhaps the most extreme case. The rule of thumb is that dances slow down with time, perhaps because musicians try to squeeze in more and more notes, or because dancers squeeze in more steps. The slow galliard Mace is describing in 1676 is quite different from the faster galliard of Attaingnant and others from well over 100 years earler. It wasn't the slowness of Nigel North's performance of Melancholy Galliard which bothered me, it was the irregular rhythm. Jaroslaw probably has in mind Donington's comment on p. 396 of _The Interpretation of Early Music_: Modern writers have frequently stated that the tempo of the Galliard is faster than the tempo of the Pavan; but ordinarily the tempo remains nearly or quite the same, each of the four time-units in one bar of the Pavan being similar to each of the three time-units in one bar of the Galliard: i.e. the pulse keeps nearly the same speed as before, in triple time. What changes is the dance, not the pulse. The dancer moves faster though the music does not. It was Donington's sister, Margaret Donington, who explained to me on my first summer school in 1973, that there were two sorts of galliard: 1) The fast galliard, like those of Attaingnant, where the dancer jumps five times in the air: 1 2 3 4 - 6 2) The slow galliard, like those of Dowland, where the dancer puts in an extra step after each jump: 1 2 3 4 wait 6 The slow galliard is more energetic, because of all those extra little steps. I'm afraid Margaret did not give me any source for this information. If I were to count in a consort of five viols lute to start Dowland's Earl of Essex Galliard, I would not count 1 2 3 for the opening three minims. That would be too fast. Instead I would count 1 2 3 , which is a steadier speed. It is useful to feel the ands to keep the rhythm tight, with its many hemiolas and cross-rhythms. My experience of playing galliards by Dowland and Holborne, is that there are three speeds: 1) Recorder speed: very fast, because the players would have breathing problems with long, drawn-out phrases; 2) Viol speed: not so fast, because there are no breathing problems, and bows can sustain long notes; 3) Lute speed: slow, because lute solo versions often have complex divisions, which are not present in the 5-part publications of Dowland and Holborne. Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599 et al), and a compromise has to be reached. The 5-tail flags of The Earl of Essex Galliard are meant to be playable, yet the music musn't be so slow that it loses its oomph. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jaroslaw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Do you really mean this? Dowland galliards played at the same pulse as his pavans are going to seem VERY slow. P On 04/02/2008, Jaros'aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now, back to Melancholy Galliard. There is a misconception concerning this dance saying that when it goes with its pair - Pavan- the later is slow and the former brisk and rapid. In fact the pulse of both is exactly the same with the only difference that Pavan goes in rhythm of four in a bar which equals three in a bar of Galliard. However the dancers change from stately movements of Pavin to very fast steps of a Galliard and this is the reason why people describe it as the fast dance. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
Diego, did you read the essay? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Especially Clips 29, 30 and 39. (Not quite same date, though.) =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= * Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library: *Strauss' _ Don Juan, Op. 20_ Performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Sir Charles Mackerras, conductor. Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ === - Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 4:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time | Peter | | Obviously I meant tempo - four time-units in one bar of the Pavan is | similar to the three time-units in one bar of the Galliard. This gives an | impression that the pulse keeps almost unchanged in triple time. However the | steps of the Galliard are much more vigorous. It depends on the dancers, but | some of them may show big virtuosity in elaborating their display. We can't | give exact metronomic values to denote Galliard's tempo because it varied | depending on time and country, but the proportions between Pavan and | Galliard remained almost the same. As I said before I doubt very much if | Dowland's Galliards served anybody for dancing ever. And for the same reason | the proportion between his Pavan and Galliard doesn't need to be observed so | rigorously. These were purely instrumental pieces. The dance form remake | was popularly used in the history of music. The music literature abounds | with such examples up to our times. For instance nobody would dance Chopin | Mazurkas. But earlier writers mentioned similar practices. Ch. Burney in | Music in Germany, London,1773, p.162 writes: | | The Polish nobleman would gladly give me a specimen of the violin music of | his country, as it depended so much on the coup d'archet, that seeing it on | paper, without hearing it performed, would afford but a very imperfect idea | of it. The Pole added that the kind of music which we call Polonaise, is | played quicker for dancing than at other times | | Best regards | | | | Jaroslaw | | | | _ | | From: Peter Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:40 AM | To: Jaros'aw Lipski | Cc: Lute | Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time | | | | Do you really mean this? Dowland galliards played at the same pulse as his | pavans are going to seem VERY slow. | | | | P | | | | | | On 04/02/2008, Jaros'aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Now, back to Melancholy Galliard. There is a misconception concerning this | dance saying that when it goes with its pair - Pavan- the later is slow and | the former brisk and rapid. In fact the pulse of both is exactly the same | with the only difference that Pavan goes in rhythm of four in a bar which | equals three in a bar of Galliard. However the dancers change from stately | movements of Pavin to very fast steps of a Galliard and this is the reason | why people describe it as the fast dance. | | | | | | | | -- | Peter Martin | Belle Serre | La Caulie | 81100 Castres | France | tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | web: www.silvius.co.uk | http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ | www.myspace.com/sambuca999 | www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty | | | -- | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html |
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi-breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi-breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 05-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote: Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599 et al), and a compromise has to be reached. One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer playing with his broken ensemble (we were talkng about the English repertoire), becouse the other parts, beside of the lute, are so boring, mostly in very long notes, that nobody really wants to play it with him. It is undertandable then, every flute or viola player tends to play all the whole and half notes faster. Of course hard to finde a compromise. Easy-dificult music and only one has fun. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Likewise. I've played most of the Morely consort lessons (I was on cittern, since I've got the only one in town) and we all had a great time. Unfortunately, the consort drifted apart after about a year due to too many conflicting schedules and priorities. I'm hoping to get into another one some day. Guy -Original Message- From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:30 AM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time I don't quite agree on that one ! I've been playing a lot of the English broken consort repertoire and my colleagues always had fun too, believe me. This music usually leaves a lot of space for divisions of other instruments than the lute and it depends on how much the other musicians like to improvise or to ornament their own part. In some cases (e.g. Go from my window) you don't even have to bother to elaborate, everything is already there..Not really my idea of easy music anyway, especially if you don't want to make it sound like music from the museum ! Jean-Marie (another lefty on the list ;-) === 05-02-2008 18:07:48 === On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote: Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599 et al), and a compromise has to be reached. One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer playing with his broken ensemble (we were talkng about the English repertoire), becouse the other parts, beside of the lute, are so boring, mostly in very long notes, that nobody really wants to play it with him. It is undertandable then, every flute or viola player tends to play all the whole and half notes faster. Of course hard to finde a compromise. Easy-dificult music and only one has fun. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 05-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
It is correct, Jurek, as far as I know... Jean-Marie PS : sorry I used a wrong name in my first post; I had not paid enough attention to your signature :-( === 05-02-2008 18:30:48 === Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 05-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
I don't quite agree on that one ! I've been playing a lot of the English broken consort repertoire and my colleagues always had fun too, believe me. This music usually leaves a lot of space for divisions of other instruments than the lute and it depends on how much the other musicians like to improvise or to ornament their own part. In some cases (e.g. Go from my window) you don't even have to bother to elaborate, everything is already there..Not really my idea of easy music anyway, especially if you don't want to make it sound like music from the museum ! Jean-Marie (another lefty on the list ;-) === 05-02-2008 18:07:48 === On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote: Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599 et al), and a compromise has to be reached. One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer playing with his broken ensemble (we were talkng about the English repertoire), becouse the other parts, beside of the lute, are so boring, mostly in very long notes, that nobody really wants to play it with him. It is undertandable then, every flute or viola player tends to play all the whole and half notes faster. Of course hard to finde a compromise. Easy-dificult music and only one has fun. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 05-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Merci Bernd !!! Everything's OK then, Jerzy ! Best , Jean-MArie === 05-02-2008 18:51:39 === PS : sorry I used a wrong name in my first post; I had not paid enough attention to your signature :-( Jurek, c'est le terme d'affection de Jerzy. :-) bonne soirée! B. --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 05-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
On 2008-02-05, at 14:21, tiorba wrote: In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob. Jurek It's indeed very far! Like playing a vocal aria with the vox humana of an organ, or thinking about sun and sea playing with unda maris... It's really clear what is a tiorbino for Castaldi. Not only from the picture, but also from the introduction, unfortunately lacking in the Minkoff reprint... Diego Diego, Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Of course I would do better using some other instrument strung in gut, say another lute, harp or ...a keyboard instrument called tiorbino, providing I'd know of it. But my buddy played ordinary (oh, how ordinary) italian cembalo, so what? But I'll tell you more, there is a biger scandal approaching or already appeared - Kenneth Gilbert's keyboard edition of the lute and theorbo music of Kapsperger... I can imagine a battle on this liste like the one with Sting. ¡Ay, caramba! Jurek PS: but the introduction to Castaldi I'd love to know, of course! _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Jurek, It got complicated a little bit, but in fact is very simple. If you start taping your foot (I don't advice taping foot at all, but one can do it virtually) when playing Pavan, don't stop it when the Galliard comes, and everything will be fine :) I played with the dancers several times and generally they don't like fast tempos of the Galliard for the simple reason they have many complicated steps (the steps shown on American video are very basic). I absolutely agree with Steward that Galliard was slowing down with time passing because of more and more complicated steps. If we presume that in XVI c. Italy it was a lively dance, probably in the end of Dowland's life it was not. No wonder that when Mace was writing about Galliard, everybody was so bored already with Galliards and inventing new attractive steps in general. So probably this is why he describes it as a slow, grave and sober dance. Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
Yes, Diego, what is the introduction by Castaldi left out of the Minkoff print? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Jarek, On 2008-02-05, at 20:33, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Jurek, It got complicated a little bit, but in fact is very simple. If you start taping your foot (I don't advice taping foot at all, but one can do it virtually) when playing Pavan, don't stop it when the Galliard comes, and everything will be fine :) The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. I played with the dancers several times and generally they don't like fast tempos of the Galliard for the simple reason they have many complicated steps (the steps shown on American video are very basic). I absolutely agree with Steward that Galliard was slowing down with time passing because of more and more complicated steps. The same with pavan, the same with almain/allemande, with sarabande, etc. If we presume that in XVI c. Italy it was a lively dance, as well as the pavan not so slow, too. probably in the end of Dowland's life it was not. No wonder that when Mace was writing about Galliard, everybody was so bored already with Galliards and inventing new attractive steps in general. So probably this is why he describes it as a slow, grave and sober dance. In his time both the pavan and the galliard were for old fogies. In my feeling the Dowland pavans and galliard situates somwhere between the tipical XVIth c. Italian lively prototypes and Mace, but were already in a stage of decadence. But first of all Dowland is not for dancing - try to convince someone to dance to his Lacrime Pavan. Of course under the academic roof you can do it, but would you like to take part in that experiment? Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate the two dances. At least that's how I usually find my way around in this particular matter and it works fine, even with dancers... Hope it helps ! All the best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 21:: === The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 05-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
I couldn't quickly find a fitting example of a XVIth c. pair pavan- galliard, but I have at hand Terzi's 1st book of tab. and their on p. 115-117: Ballo Tedesco… / Il Saltarello del prescrito ballo. They are closly related thematically and it immadiately appeares that one bar/ measure of the ballo equals to two bars/measure of the saltarello in performance - that is providing a ballo is a piece of music in a moderate speed and a saltarello is brisk. In that way all the structural elements, the melody and 'harmony' runs in the saltarello twice as fast as in ballo, the fraze is twice shoter, etc. But if you'd write both dances on paper in a score way, one under the other, you could see that in musical contents one printed bar equals one printed bar. That may give a faulty impression that it might be performed bar to bar in terms of time and speed. Funny experiment. But still I think that for a sheer instrumental performance that strict proportion might be compromised accordingly. Jurek On 2008-02-05, at 21:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate the two dances. At least that's how I usually find my way around in this particular matter and it works fine, even with dancers... Hope it helps ! All the best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 21:: === The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Jurek, I absolutely agree! The problem arises when people want to play Dowland as regular ren. dances. Pozdrowienia Jarek -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:03 PM To: Lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Jarek, On 2008-02-05, at 20:33, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Jurek, It got complicated a little bit, but in fact is very simple. If you start taping your foot (I don't advice taping foot at all, but one can do it virtually) when playing Pavan, don't stop it when the Galliard comes, and everything will be fine :) The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. I played with the dancers several times and generally they don't like fast tempos of the Galliard for the simple reason they have many complicated steps (the steps shown on American video are very basic). I absolutely agree with Steward that Galliard was slowing down with time passing because of more and more complicated steps. The same with pavan, the same with almain/allemande, with sarabande, etc. If we presume that in XVI c. Italy it was a lively dance, as well as the pavan not so slow, too. probably in the end of Dowland's life it was not. No wonder that when Mace was writing about Galliard, everybody was so bored already with Galliards and inventing new attractive steps in general. So probably this is why he describes it as a slow, grave and sober dance. In his time both the pavan and the galliard were for old fogies. In my feeling the Dowland pavans and galliard situates somwhere between the tipical XVIth c. Italian lively prototypes and Mace, but were already in a stage of decadence. But first of all Dowland is not for dancing - try to convince someone to dance to his Lacrime Pavan. Of course under the academic roof you can do it, but would you like to take part in that experiment? Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino, by Castaldi
Tremendous thanks for this, Diego. Transcibing such in an old and foreign language text from an original would be a nightmare for me. Jurek _ On 2008-02-05, at 21:56, Diego Cantalupi wrote: That's the (difficult) text. I'll try to upload he page later ALLA NOBILE, SPLENDIDA E VIRTUOSA GIOVENTU' GENOVESE Il Liuto Re degli stromenti bontà del suo essere, conforme a la natura de vecchi, è ritroso e dificile, stracco di soffrire lo strapazzo barbieresco che ne fa la turba errante, Havendo dal Arciduchessa Tiorba, che l'altro giorno per non mancar d'herede egli prese per moglie havuto un figliuoletto vago, e piacevole, che più al Altezza de la Madre che a la Maiestà del genitore rassomigliandosi, Tiorbino fù chiamato, visto l'aplauso universale che in omni genere musicorum si dava a la Donna al putto, come lieto di una tal successione, così mezzo disperato per non trovar più fra quei che si lambiccano in suo servitio, chi modernamente lo contenti, del suo caro Piccinino, et altri pochi in poi, s'è risoluto d'inviarsi a la volta degli Antipodi, onde hà fatto prima solenne rinuntia, de la Liutesca corona reale che tiene, e d'ogni sua pretensione a la Regina moglie, al figliuolo, accortosi che l'una, e l'altro, quando stiano accoppiati insieme, fanno ottimo concerto, e perfettamente, e con poco fatica danno quella sodisfattione a tutto il mondo, che a sua Maestà non è mai bastato l'animo di fare se non in processo di lunghissimo tempo. Hora che ciò ch'io dico sia vero eccone a le SS. VV. virtuosissime un po' d'abbozzo in questa miei capricci li quali piu intel ligibile ch'io habbia potuto, per non haver io giamai più fatto tal mestiero, sono stati intagliati in rame da me così a la grossa per diversion di quella dolorosa noia, che continoamente mi dà l'inossata palla, che nel mezzo del piè sinistro mi lasciò per favorirmi tornato da Roma in patria, ott'anni sono una leggiadra e gentii Pistoletta galante, questa mostra dico di fantasticarie tiorbesche dedico, dono, e consacro a le SS. VV. come a persone nobili, Splendide, e che più d'ogn'altra natione di virtù si dilettano; Suplicandole ad accettar voluntieri, e gradire questo mio picciol dono, qual egli si sia, per segno del obligo grande, immortale ch'io tengo a le carezze fattemi in coteste parti mentr'io ci dimorai da le generosità loro, et insieme il buono animo mio, che sarà prontissimo quand'io m'accorga che queste non gli dispiacciano, di porgere a la giornata con altre gentilezze simili a le nobilità de le SS. VV. virtuosissimo trattenimento. Così N.S. Iddio le concede il colmo d'ogni felicità, come io lo desidero con ogni maggior affetto. Di Modena XV Lulio 1622 De Le Nobili Splendide, e Virtuosissime SS. VV. Umilissimo Devotissiomo Servitore, Bellerofonte Castaldi To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: No-man's land.
On 2/5/2008, Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a continuous range of technique from thumb-in to thumb-out? Or is there a no-man's land between the two where it is difficult to play? Been there. Fun. ;-) I think there is not so huge difference between t-out and t-in as many seem to think; when playing the big beasts I keep the instrument more upwards, but the position of the right hand stays about the same as with 6-courser, which is staying more horizontal. Even the thumb-index runs work the same way. And well, yes, there is the tiny no-mans land, where the thumb and index collide, but it is actually very tiny... And btw, I think the difference between those two ways is minimal compared to the modern guitar technique. All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] No-man's land.
Is there a continuous range of technique from thumb-in to thumb-out? Or is there a no-man's land between the two where it is difficult to play? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising no evidence
Dear Diego, On 2008-02-05, at 21:51, Diego Cantalupi wrote: Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Not so easy... it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any music for theorbo in mensural notation written in the same times. Perhaps not theorbo and not in Italy, but from France we have Perrine and especially d'Anglebert imaginatively transcribing lute music, without any prejudice, despite octaves on the lute, etc. I'm sure there's a reason for this. Also I've never seen a printed page testifying it on any lute and theorbo music book. In a way the Cazzati print I mentioned yesterday can be a trace. Beside, again on a French soil, a book by Gallot says you can play it on other instruments, and of course de Visée, Dieupart (1667-1740), who else...? The tablature was an awful barrier, therefor my theory many Italian lutenists (including tiorbists) said addio! to that type of notation. Of course, if you play a violin part with a cornetto or viceversa, there are no problems! But playing a theorbo part (with all the problems coming from unisons, in particoular in Castaldi music) it's far from being natural. Of course it works. It works a little better on double harp, since it can plays unisons... That reminds me my examples to studens showing an honest and complete transcription (including dublings) of some 'matured' baroque guitar piece, say by Corbetta or Murcia, and how imposible it is, or on the other hand how groundless it is in order to understand the basically simple texture. You can hear my experiment here (with some birds), selecting track 3. You can transcribe it for two organs, also hammond organs, it will work, but it won't be natural. Also Kenneth Gilbert's edition of HK is very unnatural: of course very easy to do, but since I'm quite sure he knows some counterpoint, it would have benn better a sort of voices reconstructions... I haven't seen it, but of course he shoud impersonate himself with someone like Frescobaldi or Rossi. But that's a persistent editorial problem - what to give to paper, and what to forgive to fingers. Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
