[LUTE] Fun with chords: Handel and JC Bach (the elder)
Here are two fairly short works that I particularly enjoy playing lute continuo on: Handel's Ombra mai fu (his most popular aria)--there is also a version by Bononcini which is also nice with lute Ombra mai fu is in F major, but you can move it up a tone to G Major if you are playing in A tuning, and in this key it is very good with soprano. We transposed it to E Flat Major for countertenor. [1]Handel: Ombra mai fu (Serse); Christopher Lowrey, countertenor, Voices of Music 4K UHD [2]image [3]Handel: Ombra mai fu (Serse); Christopher Lowrey, count... [4]View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo The other work is the JC Bach Lamento--in G Minor it lies really very well for archlute or Theorbo in G tuning; transposed up a tone to A Minor it is super on the theorbo and also lies better for soprano. [5]J.C. Bach ~ Lamento: Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hACURtte; Christopher Lowrey, countertenor 4K UHD [6]image [7]J.C. Bach ~ Lamento: Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hACURtte; C... [8]View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo dt -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAP7j3B_yIY 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAP7j3B_yIY 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAP7j3B_yIY 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAP7j3B_yIY 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZGZRzk-E3U 6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZGZRzk-E3U 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZGZRzk-E3U 8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZGZRzk-E3U To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Meads Redux
Sorry some of the tunes would not play--I included the Jennifer Ellis Kampani version on the list (the Artemisia CD you mention). You are located in the UK, are you not? I ask because usually the only country that filters YouTube content is Germany, owing to the GEMA dispute. I have to say I found it fascinating to listen to the different versions. I deliberately didn't listen before filming because sometimes you can't get a version you have heard out of your head, after filming I decided to listen to a few versions, and then I thought it would be interesting to see how many versions I could find. I could not locate a version by Emma Kirkby, if anyone knows of one please add it to the list. __ From: M Hall To: 'David Tayler' Cc: Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 1:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meads Redux Thanks for a very interesting list. Most of them I didn't seem to be able to play - perhaps because they are from commercially produced CDs? There is a very nice version of the song on Richard Savino's lstest CD - What Artemisia heard (Sono Luminus). I liked the first version with Anne Dennis very much. There is this idea that because no music was printed in England which specifies the baroque guitar as the accompanying instrument English songs were never performed in this way. But actually there is a lot of cicumstatial evidence of people playing the guitar in England throughout the 17th century. The young English man Bullen Reymes travelled on the continent and studied the guitar in Venice with a Signor Donato in 1634. Accompanying songs in this way was probably one of the things he learnt to do. He purchased a guitar in Naples whilst he was there and he also played duets for lute and guitar with one of his mates. Regards Monica -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler Sent: 19 January 2016 02:11 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Meads Redux A playlist of Lanier's "Loves Constancy: No more shall meads be deck'd with flow'rs." So many fine and talented musicians have chosen to record this song, we thought it would be interesting to make a playlist of some of the more intriguing versions. [1]Nicholas Lanier: No more shall meads (Love's Constancy); Anna Dennis & Voices of Music 4K UHD The different versions may be of particular interest to those studying how to realize a simple, unfigured bass line (or passacaglia, in some cases), you can see here many of the inventive realizations by keyboard, lute & viol players. For singers, you can see a wide variety of techniques and ornamentation. The pieces are in no particular order (I made sure to put one of my versions last). There's quite a variety of pitches going down to A=370. If you have recorded a version and would like to see it here, just drop me a line. I was unable to add Mignarda's stellar recording as it was not available on YouTube, but it may be found (and even purchased) here: [2]No More Shall Meads Be Deck'd With Flow'rs, by Mignarda I note that the contents of an entire album that I recorded (including this song) is sold worldwide even though we own all the rights to it; it's on YouTube, Amazon, iTunes, elevator music, compilations, etc. And so it goes. At least anyone can listen It was really fun listening to all of these! -- References 1. [3]https://youtu.be/25d6PFr272M?list=PL5r9vx6vJSwbgVfFKK3WxQOGv6VdIcFa0 2. [4]https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/no-more-shall-meads-be-deck-d-wi th-flow- rs To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. https://youtu.be/25d6PFr272M?list=PL5r9vx6vJSwbgVfFKK3WxQOGv6VdIcFa0 4. https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/no-more-shall-meads-be-deck-d-with-flow- 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Meads Redux
A playlist of Lanier's "Loves Constancy: No more shall meads be deck'd with flow'rs." So many fine and talented musicians have chosen to record this song, we thought it would be interesting to make a playlist of some of the more intriguing versions. [1]Nicholas Lanier: No more shall meads (Love's Constancy); Anna Dennis & Voices of Music 4K UHD The different versions may be of particular interest to those studying how to realize a simple, unfigured bass line (or passacaglia, in some cases), you can see here many of the inventive realizations by keyboard, lute & viol players. For singers, you can see a wide variety of techniques and ornamentation. The pieces are in no particular order (I made sure to put one of my versions last). There's quite a variety of pitches going down to A=370. If you have recorded a version and would like to see it here, just drop me a line. I was unable to add Mignarda's stellar recording as it was not available on YouTube, but it may be found (and even purchased) here: [2]No More Shall Meads Be Deck'd With Flow'rs, by Mignarda I note that the contents of an entire album that I recorded (including this song) is sold worldwide even though we own all the rights to it; it's on YouTube, Amazon, iTunes, elevator music, compilations, etc. And so it goes. At least anyone can listen It was really fun listening to all of these! -- References 1. https://youtu.be/25d6PFr272M?list=PL5r9vx6vJSwbgVfFKK3WxQOGv6VdIcFa0 2. https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/no-more-shall-meads-be-deck-d-with-flow-rs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Performing lute in ensemble
Unfortunately, getting people to play soft is more or less impossible, so you certainly could add mutes--the reason being that many historical violins had thicker bridges and the bows had less contact area (thinner ribbons), so the combination of mutes and dagger bows would get you closer to the unmuted, thicker bridge sound and the dagger bows closer to original bows. Dagger bows were used well into the 18th c. Certainly a gamba is going to be way better than a cello on the bass for reasons that have to do with the overtones completely covering the middle of the sound, or find a cellist like Joanna Blendulf or Elisabeth Reed (to name just a few) who can make a cello sound like a chocolate gamba. d __ From: Daniel Shoskes To: Lute List Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 4:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Performing lute in ensemble Dear list: I've been having fun with the Lauffensteiner g minor "concerto" (andante:[1]https://youtu.be/q9dV2QbcBc8 <[2]http://youtu.be/q9dV2QbcBc8>). In the Brussels Ms it has parts for 2 violins and 1 cello (OK, 2 treble clef instruments and a bass clef instrument with figures). In performance of pieces like this, how do people handle balance of instruments? Clearly having the other instruments in gut would help but it's still a struggle to have the lute loud enough in comparison with the strings. Mics? Mutes? Just play as loud as you can all the way through? Thanks Danny -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://youtu.be/q9dV2QbcBc8 2. http://youtu.be/q9dV2QbcBc8 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hidalgo Fret pattern
It shows both a perspective rule (like Durer's lute) but also a series of interlocking pythagorean triangles. I'm sure there's more to it d __ From: Andreas Schlegel To: lute list Sent: Friday, January 1, 2016 2:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hidalgo Fret pattern Dear collected wisdom, I found this in Bob Spencer's collection, now in the Royal Academy of Music, London: [1]https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514 [2]http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670 Who knows the exact meaning of this engraving? Is there a translation of the text? Thanks a lot! All the best, Andreas Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 [3]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514 2. http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670 3. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Happy New Year!
Happy New Year, and may all your lutes be happy as well :) David T [1]Vivaldi: Winter (the Four Seasons, "L'Inverno"), Cynthia Freivogel & Voices of Music 4K UHD RV 297 [2]image [3]Vivaldi: Winter (the Four Seasons, "L'Inverno"), Cynthia... [4]View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWg5ugyMjIc 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWg5ugyMjIc 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWg5ugyMjIc 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWg5ugyMjIc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] How a tennis match, a hat and a low doorway let to the Parisian chanson
The game's ahead: how a tennis match led to the development of the Parisian chanson. When I was a child visiting Europe, I asked, "Why are the doorways so small?" And I was told that people were smaller back then; true enough, some were. But consider the untimely demise of Charles VIII of France. In his haste to attend a tennis match, he hit his head on a door lintel, and his large and colorful hat did not protect him This event indirectly had an enormous effect on the arts, and particularly music, as he was succeeded by Louis XII, who rebuilt the government, and the Francis I, the great patron of the arts and host to Leonardo da Vinci. His wife, Anne of Brittany, went on to support musicians and poets. And so, a tennis match and a low doorway lead to the creation of the Parisian chanson. So the next time you play Tant que vivray, don't forget to duck! Photo here: [1]https://www.facebook.com/Voicesofmusic -- References 1. https://www.facebook.com/Voicesofmusic To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?
Four lutes and a six pack d __ From: Herbert Ward To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 1:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] What is a classic lute quartet? I saw a description of "the classic lute quartet" as four lutes in d'', a', g, and d. I googled, and I searched the archives of this forum, and I also tried Wikipedia. Very little was forthcoming. So I have a number of questions. Is there such a thing as "the classic lute quartet"? Is there a body of literature for it? Where and when was its heydey? Who composed music for it? What factors caused its rise and fall? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bach BWV 1013 Allemande
The allemande from the partita in A Aminor, BWV 1013 [1]J.S. Bach: Partita in A Minor, Allemande BWV 1013; David Tayler, archlute Clearly marked allemande in the ms, and yet more like a prelude...I suppose Bach knew what an allemande was better than me, for sure. [2]image [3]J.S. Bach: Partita in A ... [4]View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Soap & Talc, quick question
I don't use talc or related products because of the asbestos. Isn't that a cheery thought? d __ From: andy butler To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 3:11 AM Subject: [LUTE] Soap & Talc, quick question I'm about to change strings on my lute, and I understand that applying a soap/talc mix to the pegs will help with tuning. So, is that a 50/50 mix? Should I add any water? any tips gratefully received kind regards andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Carpe diem
Carpe diem! A new video of "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may." https://youtu.be/b1jw-5D_rG4 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Kicking the Kickstarter, latest HD VIdeos from the video mill
Any contributions much appreciated! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/301451197/free-vivaldi-four-seasons-the-great-works-project The latest from the video mill~ 3D animated short: https://youtu.be/p9JX1HWyLJA Steffani Stabat Mater: the concluding six-voice double Fugue--super wow from Steffani, his last work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPB4GzcKf4 Also the first movement of the Stabat Mater for solo soprano and strings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pf6LNQUcqU Monteverdi's Con che soavita--one of the best pieces eva! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H811lltfDCc Grandi Beatus Vir from Christmas (Festivus) Vespers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKyNAel0XPg Marini Passacaglia in G Minor (very nice for lute continuo) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyMw-QX6c74 Grandi Laudate Dominum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDD5GdxZemw Fireworks arranged for two harpsichords--really fun, should arrange it for lutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nbVGoGv6ds Grandi Laudate Pueri https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb-RFlFiWJM Enjoy! dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single versus triple roses
I used the best measurement mic, AFAIK, that one can buy and measured it. That's the science. Part of science is measuring things. I don't believe there is a "one size fits all" scientific explanation since there is no standard lute soundboard, bowl, bracing, materials, strings, etc., (way too many variables) but it is universally accepted that if it is too noisy in the house you close the window. If someone comes up with a theory, that's great and I would read it, of course, and probably only understand half of it. But there would be no way of knowing whether the theory was correct--just read the history of acoustical theory. One could do a controlled study of a particular lute, but what would the goal be? If it is to play loud, then purchase a tuba. d __ From: Martyn Hodgson To: David Tayler Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Single versus triple roses In his interesting response, I had understood Martin was asking for a measured scientific explanation rather than a list of anecdotal (and necessarily subjective) observations:"I invite all you proper physicists out there to explain why!". I'd be interested to read anything you have along these lines. MH __________ From: David Tayler To: BENJAMIN NARVEY Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Sunday, 30 November 2014, 19:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single versus triple roses This is a very interesting question, and also one that has been debated in the construction of harpsichords. I have a few, very simple observations. First of all, and most importantly, Andy is absolutely correct that if you use a measurement micaI recommend the DPA 4007aand analyze the sound coming out of the sound hole (or holes), the sound is vastly different. The classic mistake when recording lute, guitar, cello, harpsichord, etc, is to place the mic too close to the soundhole, because of the extreme difference in the sound. You can also make a tube out of paper, roll it up and listen like a coelenterate. Using the same mic, you will also see that the bridge is the other hot spot. Let's take a little detour here and mention that in almost all recordings of lute, the frequency pattern is skewed so the left channel sounds different than the right, and that's because the sound is fundamentally different from the rose and the bridge, causing big imaging problems (which can be fixed using the lute centering trick, subject of another post). I can also go on record as saying that if you take a cheap lute and remove the rose and put a different one in, it will change the sound. Also, the surface area of the actual holes (not the size of the rose but the amount of space in the rose) makes a difference. If you add a vent hole to the bass, well, it changes the sound. They knew this back whenever. Lastly, the rose and the lute form a strategic sound system. You can't teak one without tweaking the other. And that's because the size of the rose affects the resonance and flexibility of the soundboard on the rose bar amplification nodeaa sub-hotspot that runs usually through the middle of the rose, edge to edge but mainly in the middle (the center of the rose or rose pattern, in most cases). If you make a BIG single rose that has the same open surface area as a triple, generally speaking it will sound more open, and if too big will make the lute yawn. But it all depends on the way the sound board interacts with the tension resulting from the roseaa really big rose bends easier, unless heavily barred (another factor). My feeling is that the most open sound comes from a large, single rose with narrower weaving, but you can achieve almost the same sound with a triple. And, again speaking very generally, if you want a more open sound, have the rose made a bit larger, bearing in mind that the lute may yawn. A lute that has a naturally stiff top may benefit from the added flexibility of a single rose, because the top of the triple is inherently stifferamore soundboard, less rose. Obviously, the shape of the bowl comes into play as the sound board may be wider at the top of the rose with a more barge-like bowl. It could also be that players in the renaissance and baroque preferred a more covered sound. After all, there are no recorders made nowadays with historical windways, the builders just widen them. It's up to the builder to find the sweet spot for an instrument
[LUTE] Re: Single versus triple roses
This is a very interesting question, and also one that has been debated in the construction of harpsichords. I have a few, very simple observations. First of all, and most importantly, Andy is absolutely correct that if you use a measurement micaI recommend the DPA 4007aand analyze the sound coming out of the sound hole (or holes), the sound is vastly different. The classic mistake when recording lute, guitar, cello, harpsichord, etc, is to place the mic too close to the soundhole, because of the extreme difference in the sound. You can also make a tube out of paper, roll it up and listen like a coelenterate. Using the same mic, you will also see that the bridge is the other hot spot. Let's take a little detour here and mention that in almost all recordings of lute, the frequency pattern is skewed so the left channel sounds different than the right, and that's because the sound is fundamentally different from the rose and the bridge, causing big imaging problems (which can be fixed using the lute centering trick, subject of another post). I can also go on record as saying that if you take a cheap lute and remove the rose and put a different one in, it will change the sound. Also, the surface area of the actual holes (not the size of the rose but the amount of space in the rose) makes a difference. If you add a vent hole to the bass, well, it changes the sound. They knew this back whenever. Lastly, the rose and the lute form a strategic sound system. You can't teak one without tweaking the other. And that's because the size of the rose affects the resonance and flexibility of the soundboard on the rose bar amplification nodeaa sub-hotspot that runs usually through the middle of the rose, edge to edge but mainly in the middle (the center of the rose or rose pattern, in most cases). If you make a BIG single rose that has the same open surface area as a triple, generally speaking it will sound more open, and if too big will make the lute yawn. But it all depends on the way the sound board interacts with the tension resulting from the roseaa really big rose bends easier, unless heavily barred (another factor). My feeling is that the most open sound comes from a large, single rose with narrower weaving, but you can achieve almost the same sound with a triple. And, again speaking very generally, if you want a more open sound, have the rose made a bit larger, bearing in mind that the lute may yawn. A lute that has a naturally stiff top may benefit from the added flexibility of a single rose, because the top of the triple is inherently stifferamore soundboard, less rose. Obviously, the shape of the bowl comes into play as the sound board may be wider at the top of the rose with a more barge-like bowl. It could also be that players in the renaissance and baroque preferred a more covered sound. After all, there are no recorders made nowadays with historical windways, the builders just widen them. It's up to the builder to find the sweet spot for an instrument, and it's up to the player to work with the builder to push the limits. dt ___ From: BENJAMIN NARVEY To: Martin Shepherd Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 4:45 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single versus triple roses Dear All, Thanks so much for all your thoughts into the single/triple rose conundrum. It is obviously so hard to know just how this aspect changes the tonal colours of lutes. It is also very difficult to test just how this one aspect alters things given that every lute is different, even if it is the same model from the same maker. I will continue to do some intuitive and highly unscientific tests! Best wishes, Benjamin On Sunday, 23 November 2014, Martin Shepherd <[1][1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote: I fear there is a natural tendency to think of the rose as the hole that "lets the sound out", but I think this is a case where intuitive physics lets us down.A The size of the opening affects the natural resonant frequency of the body, with a smaller opening giving a lower frequency. But I invite all you proper physicists out there to explain why! A more complex issue, but one which is related in that it also involves a mismatch between intuitive physics and the real thing: many people seem to believe that the lute soundboard should be flexible to "allow it to vibrate", and that the more flexible it is the better the bass response.A In fact I think - please contradict me if I'm wrong - that the frequencies which we are interested in are far too high to be aided by a floppy soundboard, which is more likely to have a damping effect.A As f
[LUTE] Re: Scottish Lute Album
There's a little wheel inside with a very small potato bug. [1]http://recordinghacks.com/2008/11/01/chinese-ribbon-microphone-desig ns/ Cheers, d __ From: Ed Durbrow To: David Tayler Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2014 2:56 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Scottish Lute Album What is a motor in terms of mic technology? On Nov 8, 2014, at 3:45 PM, David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: 1x ribbon mic with custom ribbon and motor Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [3]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [4]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow [5]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ Cheers, d __ From: Ed Durbrow To: David Tayler Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2014 2:56 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Scottish Lute Album What is a motor in terms of mic technology? On Nov 8, 2014, at 3:45 PM, David Tayler <[6]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: 1x ribbon mic with custom ribbon and motor Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [7]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [8]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow [9]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://recordinghacks.com/2008/11/01/chinese-ribbon-microphone-designs/ 2. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 3. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 4. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow 5. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 6. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 7. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 8. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow 9. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Scottish Lute Album
Yes, mysteriously the link was changed after it was online for an hour or so. Here's the correct Instant Encore link: [1]https://www.instantencore.com/ControlPanel/Music/cpAlbumChecklist.as px?PIdQ15636 A lot of these companies resample the files and add compression and reverb, which is unfortunate because the dynamic range is lost (what little there is) so often the lute sounds very "flat" or compressed, Instant encore just adds a metatag to the MP3. Actually a lot of engineers add a lot of compression and then all of the piano dynamics disappear. The down side--you may laugh--is that if you listen in the car, you can't hear the quiet parts. And this is a major concern for marketing. I chose the "bad in the car" sound, but in a nice quiet room you can hear the dynamic shades and shapes. Recording setup: put up nine mics in my back room: 2x Senheiser MKH40, 1x ribbon mic with custom ribbon and motor, 2x Schoeps MK41, 2x Schoeps MK2H, 2x MKH 80. Yes, there are CDs! And they sound a bit rounder and smoother and obviously the sound has not been compressed. [2]http://kunaki.com/sales.asp?PID=PX00V71UOU d __ From: Jacob Johnson To: David Tayler Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Scottish Lute Album Hi David, I would love to hear your album. I checked the Instant Encore link and it didn't seem to work. The CD Baby samples sound great, though! Do you have any plans to make physical copies available in the future? Also, would you mind telling me about the recording setup you used? Thanks so much, Jacob Johnson Guitar/Lute On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 2:06 PM, David Tayler <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Dear all, my new Album is now online. After putting it online, I asked my self, should I sell it or share it with my friends? Well, of course, sharing is the way to go! If you would like a free copy, just send me a message on FB and I will send you a download code. [1]CDBaby [2]Instant Encore Instant Encore has better preview files. CDBaby now offers FLAC files which sound as good as the CD Cheers, David T. -- References 1. [4]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/davidtayler2 2. [5]http://www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PIdQ15636 To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.instantencore.com/ControlPanel/Music/cpAlbumChecklist.aspx?PIdQ15636 2. http://kunaki.com/sales.asp?PID=PX00V71UOU 3. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 4. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/davidtayler2 5. http://www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PIdQ15636 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Scottish Lute Album
Dear Greet, there are several sources for the tune, of which the earliest is the Straloch ms I believe. Of course there was a lively wool trade between Scotland and and all of the areas of the "Netherlands" so they shared tunes as well. For this project, I arranged a set of variations for this tune, and I made a few small changes to the base text. d __ From: Greet Schamp To: 'David Tayler' Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 1:40 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Scottish Lute Album Hello David, Sounds good, I'm intrigued by the title Ostend, as this is a city at Flanders coast, in which Scottish manuscript did you find this? Greetings from Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens David Tayler Verzonden: vrijdag 7 november 2014 21:06 Aan: lute Onderwerp: [LUTE] Scottish Lute Album Dear all, my new Album is now online. After putting it online, I asked my self, should I sell it or share it with my friends? Well, of course, sharing is the way to go! If you would like a free copy, just send me a message on FB and I will send you a download code. [1]CDBaby [2]Instant Encore Instant Encore has better preview files. CDBaby now offers FLAC files which sound as good as the CD Cheers, David T. -- References 1. [3]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/davidtayler2 2. [4]http://www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PIdQ15636 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/davidtayler2 4. http://www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PIdQ15636 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
In contrast to some of the early works, this is not a work for which I would use a lute. Personally, I find that for this work I want to play in meantone. And meantone means big frets (major semitones) and small frets (minor semitones). And these tastini for pure meantone really work best on a middling to large size theorbo. For this piece, I use a single reentrant instrument in G because it works best for all the keys, but you could certainly go with an A instrument as well. A double reentrant instrument will have octave issues. It just sounds better in meantone, IMHO. OMD. W. dt __ From: Herbert Ward To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 6:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Ren lute as sub for theorbo I saw a production of Monteverdi's "Return of Ulysses" last night. In the orchestra was a theorbo. At least I think it was a theorbo. It has a prominent place in the production, serving as the sole accompaniment for approximately six of the songs. Would it be feasible to replace the theorbo with a Renaissance lute in this opera? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Scottish Lute Album
Dear all, my new Album is now online. After putting it online, I asked my self, should I sell it or share it with my friends? Well, of course, sharing is the way to go! If you would like a free copy, just send me a message on FB and I will send you a download code. [1]CDBaby [2]Instant Encore Instant Encore has better preview files. CDBaby now offers FLAC files which sound as good as the CD Cheers, David T. -- References 1. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/davidtayler2 2. http://www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PIdQ15636 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach Prelude in C Minor
It's almost too good, the E Flat :) It would be easy to make two versions, and let the listener decide, maybe there's an app for that. dt PS Cool ambient lute~! d __ From: David van Ooijen To: Cc: lute Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2014 1:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach Prelude in C Minor Did I hear my name?A Good job by dt, putting up such a classic. We'll never get that personal favourite out of our heads, but that's why it makes for good comparisons. While we are comparing 999s: I recorded it again, two years ago (with quite a bit more reverb). Same instrument, but it has grown a lot since then. Here it is: [1][1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?vDSC6YL2qRM Same recording with some added electronics from Matthew A (reverb to the max): [2][2]http://youtu.be/mPEuIw0A0X0 I always think the E-flat is a typo, all right: inko, but to be honest, the ms is very clear and the E-flat is an E-flat, there are no two ways about it, so I'm probably stubbornly wrong. Still, I play the D as it makes more sense to me. I might change my mind over it a couple of times more, as hopefully I still have many years of playing this piece ahead of me. I play this piece from grand staff. I can adapt the basses to the instrument I happen to have in my lap, and I've added some fingerings (always easier in staff notation than tablature). This great lute virtuoso (?) has recorded some Calatayud and an arrangement of Train's latest hit this morning. No great virtuosity needed ... David (the other) *** David van Ooijen [3][3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 5 October 2014 09:12, Dan Winheld <[5][4]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: Profound thanks to both Davids for their excellent renditions of this old fave. Van Ooijen really grabs the heart- (& viscera! Great gut string sound, great nuance of phrasing, too) Tayler gets very high & deeply into the intellect- & superb sensitivity!A Both deeply moving. Thanks, guys. A I'll keep playing it on the d-minor Baroque lute- the original instrument for which it wasn't written. Never worked with the F-clef/Soprano clef grand staff format- looks to be even better for lutes- arch, Ren, Baroque, etc. than any other two staff format. Dan On 10/4/2014 11:17 AM, David Tayler wrote: A A For your weekend viewing (should you be so inclined) Bach's two minute A A wonder, the Prelude in C Minor BWV 999, "pour le luth" A A [1]Bach Prelude for lute BWV 999 A A dt A A -- References A A 1. [6][5]http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc To get on or off this list see list information at [7][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?vDSC6YL2qRM 2. [8]http://youtu.be/mPEuIw0A0X0 3. mailto:[9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. mailto:[11]dwinh...@lmi.net 6. [12]http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc 7. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?vDSC6YL2qRM 2. http://youtu.be/mPEuIw0A0X0 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 5. http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?vDSC6YL2qRM 8. http://youtu.be/mPEuIw0A0X0 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 12. http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach Prelude in C Minor
Thanks Tom, I enclose a link to the ms. I think it is in the realm of guesswork what it was composed for, but, since so many people have recorded it on the lute and the guitar, this seems to be an indication that it lies well on the instrument. Sounds great on the harpsichord and lautenwerk. You can play it in several different tunings, and the piece sounds very different in different tunings, you can hear Hopkinson Smith's classic recording in a different tuning (just a picture, alas, but a very nice picture) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzVEe0ObiLE As far as the source goes, I just played it off the manuscript, which was how many players back then played, it is in keyboard notation but you will notice that the top clef is in soprano clef, which is one of the most common clefs and eliminates a lot of the ledger lines: http://www.jsbach.net/images/bwv999.jpg You will notice someone has written an "x" in the penultimate bar, presumably to mark a wrong note. There are little dots to mark repeated bars. Other versions by famous virtuosos of the lute include this marvelous rendition by David van Ooijen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCcvtGdAJ18 The Big E Flat: A number of the versions change the low E Flat in m23 to a D. The E Flat is very dissonant, but it does spell out a 6/5 chord (with a raised 6) E flat-G-Bflat_C Sharp, a chord that Bach often used as a substitute Neopolitan, so I left it as it is in the ms. It could be there is another version that has not the E Flat, so it would be cool to compare them if someone has it. The E flat resolves the suspended 7th of the previous E flat in m15 to a C sharp. I cued up the exotic E Flat here http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc?t=1m1s If it's a mistake don't tell me :) Well, tell me. Fun, anyway. And since you mentioned Gerwig (and I'm not old enough to have heard him play, well, almost, yikes) You can hear quite a bit on Amazon (firmly in the E Flat camp) http://www.amazon.com/Prelude-C-Minor-BWV-999/dp/B003TZCDHQ Great performance by Gerwig. dt On Sat, 10/4/14, Heartistry Old wrote: Subject: Re: [LUTE] Bach Prelude in C Minor To: "David Tayler" Date: Saturday, October 4, 2014, 12:17 PM Beautiful! Thanks. Can you tell me something of the history of this piece? i.e. was it composed in keyboard staff notation, then intabulated by somebody else? Was it written for a particular player or for a particular occasion? Are there any clear answers here, or mainly speculation? BTW, Walther Gerwig's recording of this helped get me interested in lutes. Thanks in advance, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music www.heartistry.com 715-682-9362 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 4, 2014, at 1:17 PM, David Tayler wrote: > > For your weekend viewing (should you be so inclined) Bach's two minute > wonder, the Prelude in C Minor BWV 999, "pour le luth" > [1]Bach Prelude for lute BWV 999 > dt > > -- > > References > > 1. http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Seven courses versus eight.
I've slightly revised my views on this, I think you can make a case that there are a couple of important pieces that are "conceived" in 8-course tuning, but the number is small. It would seem on the basis of contrapuntal analysis that the version of Lacrimae of Dowland in G Minor was written for 8 course, as well as his other early work in Francisque. The problem is that in the span of just a few years, you start to see 9 courses and ten courses, and there's no way to match works with specific lutes within a short span of time. Also, there's many examples where you can play the F fretted. I think you can argue that there were early adopters, just like today, so there was a lot of overlap. So you can almost always use the 7c for the eight, but the fact is, the 8c is almost always more resonant. You could argue that the 7 and 6 sound more "early", and I think that is for sure true. When in doubt, buy two, that is always the way of the LBA (lute buyers addiction). Also in terms of LBA, maximize the usefulness of your collection. So for example if you want to a play lute duets a tone apart, make one of the lutes a 6 or a 7c, and the other an 8 or 10, and use the lower one for English and French lute songs, as well as 8c-10c literature. It isn't like having two matched 7c for Pickering, but it keeps the LBS under control. 8c is very popular--there's a reason for that. Sort of like a minivan with the "sport" suspension. dt On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 8:45 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: What is the extent and nature of the historical liturature which is playable on an 8-course Renassiance lute, but not on a 7-course? In other words, is a 7-course instrument a workable subsitute for an 8-course? This assumes the 7-course lutenist is willing to retune his 7th course between pieces. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bach Prelude in C Minor
For your weekend viewing (should you be so inclined) Bach's two minute wonder, the Prelude in C Minor BWV 999, "pour le luth" [1]Bach Prelude for lute BWV 999 dt -- References 1. http://youtu.be/FnpaMm_2QYc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form of notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient in showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as well, such as ornamentation. Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms "high-degree interchangeable". Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there is no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the "absence" is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition. dt __ From: jean-michel Catherinot To: R. Mattes ; lute ; Martyn Hodgson Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider that most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be this is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that tuning is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for arciliuto and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide: ambitus and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said, obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others it seems, I'm trying to list them), and the "concerti" from Harrach collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of the solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto with two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from the Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the Royal Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at Rohrau. Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while renaming the picture untitled "tuorbe" in "archiluth", he corrects a mistake he has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives quite clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two tunings for archiluth in G and A. Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject, but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of the use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used, it's very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note). The only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning could be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated to the harpsichord (did Delair even play the theorbo?). The others (Grenerin, Fleury,...) work with re-entrant tuning, even if the solutions could be strange for us (but what about the guitar?). I think the discontinuity you quote about the lines, with wide laps, is inherent to the theorbo. In very clear solo theorbo pieces, with no doubt on tuning as Saizenay, you find those strange laps, even in de VisA(c)e. It is also very common in guitar pieces, (have a look to Monica Hall's site). And even changing the tuning doesn't solve the problem: you allways find those dicontinuities. This begins with Piccinini from place to place, but the campanella parts prove that his tuning was completely re-entrant. Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 18h26, R. Mattes <[1]r...@mh-freiburg.de> a A(c)crit : On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:10:18 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote > > > I'm sorry you find Bob Spencer's paper so very poor. No need to be sorry, esp. since I don't find Spencer's paper "very poor" (where did I write that?). I only tied to say that it a) shows it's age b) seems to be an "overview"-type of publication and hence tends to over-generalize c) seems to often prove my points more than yours. > My point about the tablatures (rather than staff notation) is that > it is with these that we find an unequivocal indication of the > tuning required for a particular named instrument. And my point is that a lot of the tablatures I kow of and played are much less unequivocal in indicating the required tuning - just as an example there seem to be some rather equivocal places in the Pittoni on my music stand ... > I'm not aware of > a
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
__ a) Have read that (read it when it came out, yikes) and did not agree with it then and don't agree with it now. Especially the part on the chitarrone. You could certainly retitle it "putting labels on lutes", and the research, for the time, was good. But left out lots. aa) Musicological articles have a shelf life of twenty years. Sad but true. b) Tablature is a form of musical notation and not necessarily a definition of tuning. Those trained in a "fixed pitch" environment will find this odd, but those trained in a transposing environment will find this fits. I just look at it differently. No biggie. dt From: Martyn Hodgson To: R. Mattes ; David Tayler ; lute Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 3:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Have a look at: a) the early sources (Bob Spencer's famous paper still represents a good summary [1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/index.html ); b) tablatures identified for the two instruments and the tuning required MH __ From: R. Mattes <[2]r...@mh-freiburg.de> To: Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; David Tayler <[4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net>; lute <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 11:22 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:59:29 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote > This doesn't address the point I made to you: that the fundamental >difference between the archlute and the theorbo is in the manner > of stringing - theorbos have the top one or two courses lowered > from nominal; archlutes do not. Yes, that's how you happen to match a name with a feature set. The open question is: can we assume that this mapping is historic? Let me just list some of the possible features that could come to mind: 1 reentrant tuning 2 low ambitus 3 tuning in "vielle tone" (even if reentrant) 4 extended neck 5 enough open bass strings to put (most of) the bass line on open strings 6 use of the instrument (orchestra vs. chamber vs. solo) Your claim is that feature 1 alone defined what was called a "tiorba"? IMHO this is wishfull thinking - esp. in places/times where there is a mixup of instruments used. Have a look at the early french "theorbe" sources (the first BC methods). It's pretty obvious that these prints where meant for instruments in "vielle tone" (I hope we can all agree on this). So, here the distinguishing feature was probably feature 4 and _not_ feature 1. If you look at the so-called "theorbo" book from the Goess collection you'll find a irritating mixture of pieces for reentrant and non-reentrant tuning (some might even be written for single-reentrant tuning). Also, let's not forget that feature 1 is only really relevant/obvious to the player himself - any observer would probably just use the name most common to him for an instrument with those _visual_ features. How do you think Weiss called "his" instrument? If his director asked: "Silvius, could we try this aria with you playing fundament on your theorbo?", o you really think he would reply: "that's not a theorbo, it's a Weissophone!"? With all their love for classifications the baroque has an amazing tendency to use terms as hypernyms. So, by he beginning of the galant style anything with a low ambitus and/or an extended neck might be labeled "theorbo" (and I have a nagging feeling that even a gallichon with extended neck was called theorbo) HTH Ralf Mattes > If you don't think this is the > case then, to repeat, what's your evidence (ie not merely simple > assertion) for supposing otherwise? Further, it is widely > understood that there is great diversity in the configuration and > shape of these instruments - which is why it is better to identify > an instrument in relation to its manner of tuning rather than to > any particular physical feature. MH __ > >From: David Tayler <[1][6]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> >To: lute <[2][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 1:16 >Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 > Well, the evidence is in the museums--there are more
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Ralf, that is very interesting. Thanks for that perspective. dt __ From: R. Mattes Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 > a) the early sources (Bob Spencer's famous paper still represents a good summary [1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/index.html ); Do you really imply that I haven't read this article? This article was valuable at it's time but of course shows also the goals of historical organology at that time, i.e. to classify and to create a (hopefully) one-to-one mapping between terminology and morphology of instruments. But, o.k., since you threw it in: just out of curiosity, did you recently read that article? Let's start with page 408: "Defining the differences between the chitarrone, theorbo and archlute has always been difficult. Mersenne (1637) was confused, and few readers of his book on instruments seem to have noticed that he renamed his theorbe, arciliuto." And, shortly after that on the same page, about the chitarrone: "Note that he says nothing about long un-stopped bass strings, which Piccinini says he invented for the arciliuto in 1594. I suggest that before 1594 the chitarrone may have been exactly what Piccinini says: bass lutes restrung at higher pitch with the top two courses lowered an octave, but without very long contrabassi." So, here we see that in the early 17 century, features 1 & 2 seem to define a chitarrone (later to be called tiorba). Presence of feature 4 defines the archlute. As we already see, these feature sets are disjunct, so an instrument with all three features might be given both names, depending on who refered to it and where. This is not at all problematic (at least for the speaker back then) as long as no conflict arises. So, in France in the mid of the 17th century a long-necked lute in vielle tone was called theorbe, the short-necked instrument being called lute. Only when instruments in the "new" (read: reentrant) tuning became more prominent (because of the italian players? Bartolotti?) there was a need for terminological adaptions. Reading Spencer's comments on Praetorius: the "Testudo Theorbata" (pressumably a "liuto attiorbato", an instrument Piccinini prefers to call "archiliuto") might easily be called a "theorba" by a german speaker ... > > b) tablatures identified for the two instruments and the tuning required > So why don't you comment on the tow tablature examples I explicitly mentioned? Also: by looking at tablatures we might be looking at the wrong sources. Most of the music pulished explicitly for tiorba is published in common music notation, _not_ in tablature (maybe because there was no common tuning/pitch level a publisher could expect. For this see also the story of the Huygens music print). Regarding the qualtiy of the Spencer article: read the Weiss letter and read Spencer's interpretation. I also think that he fell into the old "Germany" trapp: you just can't talk about theorbo in "Germany". You need to at least distingush between the austrian parts (where the theorbo most likely was introduced early on by the italian musicians in the royal chapel and not "... from France, along with the French lute."). Cheers, Ralf Mattes > MH > To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/index.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
That's an interesting set of labels but it doesn't cover all the historical cases. So for example, some large lutes had double strings. Mostly these lutes have disappeared. However, if anyone chooses to make a concordance nowadays to sort out the old lutes, I can see why one would want to do that. You could also have two types of every instrument. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson To: David Tayler ; lute Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 This doesn't address the point I made to you: that the fundamental difference between the archlute and the theorbo is in the manner of stringing - theorbos have the top one or two courses lowered from nominal; archlutes do not. If you don't think this is the case then, to repeat, what's your evidence (ie not merely simple assertion) for supposing otherwise? Further, it is widely understood that there is great diversity in the configuration and shape of these instruments - which is why it is better to identify an instrument in relation to its manner of tuning rather than to any particular physical feature. MH __________ From: David Tayler To: lute Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 1:16 Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Well, the evidence is in the museums--there are more than two types of instruments. Therefore, any attempt to categorize the historical lutes as two types does not reflect the historical record. If you look at all the surviving lutes (I haven't seen all of them, but a pretty good percentage over the last 40 years) you will see that most of them are different and there are many types and variations. The "label" problem is not limited to lutes, it is simply the modern opposite of historical practice. The biggest difference between the way we look at things and the way a 16th or 17th century person would look at things is that we prefer uniformity and they preferred diversity. So the modern "take" on old instruments is simply a form of acculturation based on a 20th or 21st century point of view. Or you could call it preferential selection, like collecting art works or favorite music works. Preferential selection--collecting things you like or think belong together, like a suite of dances-- is of course historical, just not the way we do it. Another way to look at it: if one "labels" as an archlute an instrument with a certain size tuning, you instantly create such an instrument, and possibly exclude others. However, if you use a neutral label, you can describe an instrument type. So "pluckies", as folksy as it sounds, is historically a much more accurate term., and does not cause the disappearance of an instrument or group of instruments, like the double strung "theorbo". One could try to argue that the terms are highly specific, and I would then simply direct people to the the lists of CDs over the last forty years, and you can see different fads about what is an archlute, chitarrone and so on. It clearly changes over time because it is an ongoing process of acculturation, or follows market driven ideas of what will sell or what is popular. And there is nothing wrong with that, it just is pretty far from the original sources. One of the surprising things about the internet is that now a lot of unusual and possibly historical instrument designs are resurfacing, owing to these same market forces. dt __________ From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net>; lute <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 You write that 'The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree interchangeable.' What's your evidence for this? The two instruments were tuned in different ways: theorboes having re-entrant tuning - single re-entrant if small enough or double reentrant if large; whereas archlutes retained the highest course at the upper octave. Or are you suggesting the occasional possibility that a writer may have used the word archlute in a generic sense: implying any lute instrument with extended basses? MH __ From: David Tayler <[4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <[5]lute@cs.d
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
__ Well, if the surviving instruments are, as you say, not reliable, they are still the most reliable of the information we have. However, the surviving instruments are IMHO rare, valuable, informative, vivid and concise. Like any document or postcard from the past, they need to be interpreted. As for labels, I see that as the root of the problem, and essentially a reinterpretation of the based based on the ever changing tastes ofthe present. People like the archlute-theorbo duality. It isn't historical, but people like it. The terms are partially historical, of course, they just create an artificial duality. I don't like it, but that's just because it think it filters out a lot of possibilities. I think one could come up with a better label system, but that isn't going to happen because the lute business is a market driven business, it is not an academic enterprise. In the case of Weiss, you have conflicting information, Weiss's letter, and the surviving parts. Take away the labels, and the problem goes away. Mostly. dt From: jean-michel Catherinot To: David Tayler ; lute Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 If you read the previous messages, and specially, the one from Arthur Ness, you may notice that some of the arciliuto obligato parts in Dresden opera would be by Weiss's own hand. So it seems that arciliuto was eventually practiced by him, at least on stage: it looks that arciliuto was not an ennemy for him! Concerning the instruments, luthiers are more competent: but I've seen some in Europe (it was easy to have in your hands the instruments of the Paris conservatoire at the time, and I helped to draw the plans of some of them, or in Bruxelles and Nueremberg), and not many in their initial shape (many transformed in guitar, shortened, with guitar bridge, ...). So surviving instruments are not such a reliable sourceAnyway, the main information in this letter is that at least 3 types of instruments exist, and different from each others, at Weiss' time: lute, arciliuto and theorbo. And it is not a question of label, it's a question of tuning and quantity of noise it produces! Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 2h41, David Tayler a ecrit : __ This is a very interesting quote because it falls in between the classical divisions of prescriptive and descriptive. So it is sort of descriptive in that Weiss is setting up a "straw lute" argument by describing and then downgrading the "other" (non-Weiss) instruments, and then it is both self-descriptive and prescriptive in that he goes on to describe the "superior" instrument, which of course he would be compelled by the rules of rhetoric to claim to have partially invented. You could argue based on this quote that no one played the gallichon, but of course that won't fly nowadays. In analyzing the quote, there is no way to know if it is true or not, but there is certainly no reason to doubt that Weiss had all or some custom instruments. However, there is also no reason to doubt that any of his competitors would not have had custom instruments, which would render his entire argument moot. Certainly it was standard procedure for someone to claim that their method was the "right" one and everyone else had it wrong, and musicologists rightly take such statements in that context. So for example, most German composers claim that they brought French music to Germany. And therefore those statements are all pretty much suspect. But--it certainly helps make the case that "professionals" had "custom" instruments and custom tunings, which would mean that new labels must be invented and applied (the "Weiss Theorbo", etc.) or one could stay away from the labels d In a letter to Johann Mattheson written in 1723 Weiss describes the lutes he used: "a|.I am of the opinion that after the keyboard there is no more perfect instrument than this one (the lute) especially for Galanterie. The theorbo and Arciliuto, which are quite different even from each other, cannot be used at all in Galanterie piecesa|I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and in church. It has the same size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only that the tuning is different. This instrument I use on these occasions. But in chamber music, I assure you that a cantata a voce sol
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
__ This is a very interesting quote because it falls in between the classical divisions of prescriptive and descriptive. So it is sort of descriptive in that Weiss is setting up a "straw lute" argument by describing and then downgrading the "other" (non-Weiss) instruments, and then it is both self-descriptive and prescriptive in that he goes on to describe the "superior" instrument, which of course he would be compelled by the rules of rhetoric to claim to have partially invented. You could argue based on this quote that no one played the gallichon, but of course that won't fly nowadays. In analyzing the quote, there is no way to know if it is true or not, but there is certainly no reason to doubt that Weiss had all or some custom instruments. However, there is also no reason to doubt that any of his competitors would not have had custom instruments, which would render his entire argument moot. Certainly it was standard procedure for someone to claim that their method was the "right" one and everyone else had it wrong, and musicologists rightly take such statements in that context. So for example, most German composers claim that they brought French music to Germany. And therefore those statements are all pretty much suspect. But--it certainly helps make the case that "professionals" had "custom" instruments and custom tunings, which would mean that new labels must be invented and applied (the "Weiss Theorbo", etc.) or one could stay away from the labels d In a letter to Johann Mattheson written in 1723 Weiss describes the lutes he used: "a|.I am of the opinion that after the keyboard there is no more perfect instrument than this one (the lute) especially for Galanterie. The theorbo and Arciliuto, which are quite different even from each other, cannot be used at all in Galanterie piecesa|I have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the orchestra and in church. It has the same size, length, power and resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only that the tuning is different. This instrument I use on these occasions. But in chamber music, I assure you that a cantata a voce sola, next to the harpsichord, accompanied by the lute has a much better effect than with the Arciliuto or even theorbo, since these two latter instruments are ordinarily played with the nails and produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound." Le Samedi 25 janvier 2014 10h45, Martyn Hodgson a A(c)crit : You write that 'The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree interchangeable.' What's your evidence for this? The two instruments were tuned in different ways: theorboes having re-entrant tuning - single re-entrant if small enough or double reentrant if large; whereas archlutes retained the highest course at the upper octave. Or are you suggesting the occasional possibility that a writer may have used the word archlute in a generic sense: implying any lute instrument with extended basses? MH __ From: David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 24 January 2014, 19:14 Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree interchangeable. That is, they are not low or medium, and they are also not completely interchangeable (since they are sometimes used together). One could argue that they are "medium" instead of "high", but it would be difficult to show this based on the sources. The correlation is the inverse of the degree, so in other words it is possible that the difference in terms may "mean" something, but of a low order of probability. Because of the degree order, it isn't really possible to assign uses in a general way, only in specific cases. For every case, there will be an exception. There are certainly some interesting specific cases. So either "what we call" the theorbo or the archlute could be used to play just the single notes of a bass part, or chords, or continuo, or any of a million shades in between, as well as the instruments of the lute family that we do not normally include in our modern designation of archlute and theorbo--that is, instruments without modern labels. However, in these specific cases, like obbligato parts, there is no reaso
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Well, the evidence is in the museums--there are more than two types of instruments. Therefore, any attempt to categorize the historical lutes as two types does not reflect the historical record. If you look at all the surviving lutes (I haven't seen all of them, but a pretty good percentage over the last 40 years) you will see that most of them are different and there are many types and variations. The "label" problem is not limited to lutes, it is simply the modern opposite of historical practice. The biggest difference between the way we look at things and the way a 16th or 17th century person would look at things is that we prefer uniformity and they preferred diversity. So the modern "take" on old instruments is simply a form of acculturation based on a 20th or 21st century point of view. Or you could call it preferential selection, like collecting art works or favorite music works. Preferential selection--collecting things you like or think belong together, like a suite of dances-- is of course historical, just not the way we do it. Another way to look at it: if one "labels" as an archlute an instrument with a certain size tuning, you instantly create such an instrument, and possibly exclude others. However, if you use a neutral label, you can describe an instrument type. So "pluckies", as folksy as it sounds, is historically a much more accurate term., and does not cause the disappearance of an instrument or group of instruments, like the double strung "theorbo". One could try to argue that the terms are highly specific, and I would then simply direct people to the the lists of CDs over the last forty years, and you can see different fads about what is an archlute, chitarrone and so on. It clearly changes over time because it is an ongoing process of acculturation, or follows market driven ideas of what will sell or what is popular. And there is nothing wrong with that, it just is pretty far from the original sources. One of the surprising things about the internet is that now a lot of unusual and possibly historical instrument designs are resurfacing, owing to these same market forces. dt ______ From: Martyn Hodgson To: David Tayler ; lute Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 You write that 'The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree interchangeable.' What's your evidence for this? The two instruments were tuned in different ways: theorboes having re-entrant tuning - single re-entrant if small enough or double reentrant if large; whereas archlutes retained the highest course at the upper octave. Or are you suggesting the occasional possibility that a writer may have used the word archlute in a generic sense: implying any lute instrument with extended basses? MH __ From: David Tayler To: lute Sent: Friday, 24 January 2014, 19:14 Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree interchangeable. That is, they are not low or medium, and they are also not completely interchangeable (since they are sometimes used together). One could argue that they are "medium" instead of "high", but it would be difficult to show this based on the sources. The correlation is the inverse of the degree, so in other words it is possible that the difference in terms may "mean" something, but of a low order of probability. Because of the degree order, it isn't really possible to assign uses in a general way, only in specific cases. For every case, there will be an exception. There are certainly some interesting specific cases. So either "what we call" the theorbo or the archlute could be used to play just the single notes of a bass part, or chords, or continuo, or any of a million shades in between, as well as the instruments of the lute family that we do not normally include in our modern designation of archlute and theorbo--that is, instruments without modern labels. However, in these specific cases, like obbligato parts, there is no reason to believe that there was one type of archlute, so then you get into label variations. The variations are also the inverse of correlation--that is, to make a conclusion about how an instrument was used, you would have to reconcile the variants. There are a few pieces where you can make a correlation based on range, but these would have to be fully written out obb
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree interchangeable. That is, they are not low or medium, and they are also not completely interchangeable (since they are sometimes used together). One could argue that they are "medium" instead of "high", but it would be difficult to show this based on the sources. The correlation is the inverse of the degree, so in other words it is possible that the difference in terms may "mean" something, but of a low order of probability. Because of the degree order, it isn't really possible to assign uses in a general way, only in specific cases. For every case, there will be an exception. There are certainly some interesting specific cases. So either "what we call" the theorbo or the archlute could be used to play just the single notes of a bass part, or chords, or continuo, or any of a million shades in between, as well as the instruments of the lute family that we do not normally include in our modern designation of archlute and theorbo--that is, instruments without modern labels. However, in these specific cases, like obbligato parts, there is no reason to believe that there was one type of archlute, so then you get into label variations. The variations are also the inverse of correlation--that is, to make a conclusion about how an instrument was used, you would have to reconcile the variants. There are a few pieces where you can make a correlation based on range, but these would have to be fully written out obbligato parts, not bass parts, and even these could well be played on other instruments. If you look at "list label-sets", like encyclopedias or books of measurements, each instrument is assigned a label; however, there is no other way to make a list, so there is no reason to believe that the label applied reflected common practice--which explains why the different label-lists use different labels. You can't have a list composed of duplicates. This explains why the lists exist, and also explains why the lists are different. 20th and 21st century mindsets require a label for every instrument; however, the renaissance and baroque mindsets required a small number of labels for a large number of instruments. By applying the small number of labels categorically, the effect is simply to exclude the larger number of instruments from the general discussion. For example the chitarrone has disappeared, because its label was changed. Same is true for the viola. To exist in the renaissance and baroque mindset, one must learn to think in the instrumentarium of a small number of terms and a large number of instruments. And within these terms, family has priority, So "lute" or "flute" or "viola" first refers to a family of instruments, and terms like archlute have a familial tendency. Erase that, and the interconnections disappear. That's why we have fewer lute types today than in the past, as well as fewer instrument types, with the exception of "sideways marketing", where an instrument is rediscovered or elevated for marketing purposes in a crowded subfield. Marketing definitely creates more labels. dt __ From: Gary R. Boye To: jean-michel Catherinot ; Martyn Hodgson ; R. Mattes ; Ed Durbrow ; LuteNet list Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 6:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Dear Jean Michel, Yes; interesting! We are only talking about Corelli's Op. 1 (Opp. 2-4 all call for archlute according to surviving editions--no mention of theorbo there). I suppose this could either reflect common practice in a city (Rome vs. Bologna/Venice) or publisher preference. Or just happenstance--what editions the publishers happened to copy. The raw numbers: There are 15 known editions of Op. 1, published between 1681-1735. Archlute is called for in the first edition in Rome, as well as 2 other Roman editions, 1 edition from Modena, and 3 editions from London. Theorbo ("tiorba") is called for in 7 editions, published between 1682-1707. 5 of the editions are from Bologna (printed by G. Monti or Silvani) and 2 are from Venice. There is an additional Dutch edition by Roger that calls for both instruments in a catalog published later. This seems to support Martyn's statement about different uses for the instruments in this music (violone vs. figured bass parts). There are some that see a very limited role for the archlute in general, mainly in Rome. But in addition to Corelli, the archlute was called for in title pages of other's music outside of Rome more often than in Rome itself: London 21 Rome 10 Amsterdam 10 Venice 6 Bologna 5 Modena 3 Antwerp 1 Florence 1 Lucca 1 [To search on my web page, go to: [1]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/m
[LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum--sources for pizza.
__ The Church is St Marks Lutheran in San Francisco The present church was constructed on two lots on O'Farrell between Franklin and Gough that were bought for $17,500. A German-American architect, Henry Geilfuss, designed a red brick church in a blend of Romanesque style and Gothic elements. Three hundred fifty community leaders and onlookers witnessed the cornerstone laying of the new St. Markus, the largest German church in California. The church, which cost $56,000 to build, was dedicated on March 10, 1895. A Schoenstein organ and chandelier from Germany, donated by sugar tycoon Claus Spreckels, were transferred from the Geary St. church to the new St. Markus. During the dedication ceremony St. Mark's survived the first of many earthquakes. The name on the cornerstone, St. Markus Kirche, reflected the congregation's German heritage. The church is a blend of Romanesque and Gothic elements of pointed gables and arches, pier buttresses, and a Rose Window. The red brick is set off by details of buff-colored brick and Bedford stone. The lower tower has an octagonal base with a conical roof, and the higher tower is squared with four upper corner turrets and a pyramidal roof. d From: Nancy Carlin To: Monica Hall Cc: Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 1:42 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum--sources for pizza. If I am not mistaken it's a church near the University of California Berkeley campus where a lot of concerts are held. I've always thought of it as designed to appeal to the transplants from the Eastern US and it reminds me of big churches in the Boston area. Nancy > Thank you - that is very interesting and helpful. Loved the Schmelzer and some of your other videos especaially the one with the dancers. It is amazing what's on Youtube! Could spend all night watching them. > > Another non sequitur - I was curious to know what sort of church is is where you are performing. It is rather different in style from English churches I am familiar with > > Monica > > Monica > > > - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> > To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 6:52 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum--sources for pizza. > > >> Chords and plucking on the viol: >> Well, there are a few different ways to answer that. >> The first is that the difference between the lute and the viol would >> have been much less than it is today. that is, the lute would have >> played more melodies and the gamba would play more chords. >> The second is that etymologically, the instruments were considered two >> sides of the same coin, so "viola" was "string instrument"; viola da >> mano was the lute (called vihuela in Spanish, viol in other languages) >> and viola "arco", "gamba" and so on was the same instrument, another >> way. >> And then we have the iconographic evidence, some of which may be >> fanciful of course. >> For this video, we adapted and recreated some techniques based on >> contemporaneous sources: Tobias Hume's The First Part of Ayres (1605): >> the player is asked in The Souldiers Song to aPlay three letters with >> your Fingers', and in "Harke, Harke" to "Play nine letters with your >> finger." And in Monteverdi's Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda >> (1624), the players are directed to "pluck the strings with two >> fingers". >> Farina in Capriccio stravagante, 1627, directs the violinist to play >> the violin like a guitar. >> We also use full bowed harmonies in the style of the lirone on the >> viol, because the lirone developed out of styles that were already used >> for the gamba. >> dt >> You can see this "lirone" style here: >> [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pfoPVO4BsM >> They were a lively bunch, way back when! >> dt >> __ >> >> From: Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> To: David Tayler <[5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> >> Cc: Lutelist <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 3:24 AM >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] A Christmas Contrafactum >> Great performance and very int
[LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum
Maybe this is the happiest music :) d __ From: Christopher Stetson To: David Tayler Cc: Rockford Mjos ; lute Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum Could there be happier music? Chris. On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:53 PM, David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Thanks Rocky! d __ From: Rockford Mjos <[2]rm...@comcast.net> To: David Tayler <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Cc: lute <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum I love the idea and the performance! -- Rocky On Jan 21, 2014, at 3:01 AM, David Tayler wrote: > [1][5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. mailto:rm...@comcast.net 3. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum--sources for pizza.
Chords and plucking on the viol: Well, there are a few different ways to answer that. The first is that the difference between the lute and the viol would have been much less than it is today. that is, the lute would have played more melodies and the gamba would play more chords. The second is that etymologically, the instruments were considered two sides of the same coin, so "viola" was "string instrument"; viola da mano was the lute (called vihuela in Spanish, viol in other languages) and viola "arco", "gamba" and so on was the same instrument, another way. And then we have the iconographic evidence, some of which may be fanciful of course. For this video, we adapted and recreated some techniques based on contemporaneous sources: Tobias Hume's The First Part of Ayres (1605): the player is asked in The Souldiers Song to aPlay three letters with your Fingers', and in "Harke, Harke" to "Play nine letters with your finger." And in Monteverdi's Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda (1624), the players are directed to "pluck the strings with two fingers". Farina in Capriccio stravagante, 1627, directs the violinist to play the violin like a guitar. We also use full bowed harmonies in the style of the lirone on the viol, because the lirone developed out of styles that were already used for the gamba. dt You can see this "lirone" style here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pfoPVO4BsM They were a lively bunch, way back when! dt ______ From: Monica Hall To: David Tayler Cc: Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] A Christmas Contrafactum Great performance and very interesting - especially the lyrics which seem to have been culled from different parts of the canon. A bit of a non-sequitur but how common was it for the viola da gamba to pluck rather than bow the bass line? What is the evidence is thereis there any? Monica - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] A Christmas Contrafactum > One of the interesting features of Early Music is the way in which > material was recycled. When I first saw the Contrafactum for > Monteverdi's Chiome d'oro (for Easter), I remember wishing there was > one for Christmas. But then I figured, how hard could it be to write a > Latin version? Pretty hard, as it turns out, so I had a friend help. dt > [1]aP: Claudio Monteverdi: Puer Natus (Chiome d'oro); Voices of Music - > YouTube > > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 > > Hidden links: > 3. [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum
Thanks Rocky! d __ From: Rockford Mjos To: David Tayler Cc: lute Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A Christmas Contrafactum I love the idea and the performance! -- Rocky On Jan 21, 2014, at 3:01 AM, David Tayler wrote: > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A Christmas Contrafactum
One of the interesting features of Early Music is the way in which material was recycled. When I first saw the Contrafactum for Monteverdi's Chiome d'oro (for Easter), I remember wishing there was one for Christmas. But then I figured, how hard could it be to write a Latin version? Pretty hard, as it turns out, so I had a friend help. dt [1]aP: Claudio Monteverdi: Puer Natus (Chiome d'oro); Voices of Music - YouTube -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPlE0ibIt0s&hd=1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: body fret re-glue
__ I always keep some bamboo skewers handy for small repairs, just as David v.O. suggests. If you have some dried glue left on the soundboard, and you don't want to try to remove it, you can make some very thin grooves in the back of the fret before gluing it. Otherwise it may (will) pop off again. Of course you can also imagine that the HIP Deities are "informing" you that body frets were not very common on lutes and go fret-loose and fancy free. dt My way: - bamboo skewer - white glue (breaks off easily when there's need to remove or reglue) - eraser between fret and strings to press fret David *** David van Ooijen [1][1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 17 January 2014 22:16, Leonard Williams <[3][2]arc...@verizon.net> wrote: Sorry if this is redundantd-!eP:e had trouble getting mail through. A Wrong address? Anyway: A A A A Back in the fall there was a discussion about material for body frets. How about glue? A A A A I just lost (then found) a fret and will need to reattach it. A Is there a way to clamp it without removing all my strings? A Ie thinking of keeping the lute in the case with a weight across the strings at the fret. A Is this do-able, or even advisable? Thanks and regards! Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at [4][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [5]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:[6]arc...@verizon.net 4. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 6. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Identify painting
Is this the one? http://www.nationalmuseum.se/Global/Pressbilder/RubensvanDyck/H%C3%B6gu ppl%C3%B6st%20jpg/0410.jpg __ From: David Tayler To: lute Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 9:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Identify painting __ That's the famous cello painting in the Stockholm museum. They have digital online, or I can send you a snap from my summer trip on the the way to the Opera house. The cello has a number of interesting features, including something which appears to be a fine tuner. d From: Anthony Hart <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> To: lute <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 2:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Identify painting Can anyone identify the painting used in the following video? [1]Pieter Hellendaal Six Sonatas for Cello and Bass Opus V 1780 Thanks and Happy lutening in 2014 Anthony -- References 1. [1][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v3E_fx1Y7k&sns=em To get on or off this list see list information at [2][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v3E_fx1Y7k&sns=em 2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v3E_fx1Y7k&sns=em 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v3E_fx1Y7k&sns=em 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Identify painting
__ That's the famous cello painting in the Stockholm museum. They have digital online, or I can send you a snap from my summer trip on the the way to the Opera house. The cello has a number of interesting features, including something which appears to be a fine tuner. d From: Anthony Hart To: lute Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 2:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Identify painting Can anyone identify the painting used in the following video? [1]Pieter Hellendaal Six Sonatas for Cello and Bass Opus V 1780 Thanks and Happy lutening in 2014 Anthony -- References 1. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v3E_fx1Y7k&sns=em To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v3E_fx1Y7k&sns=em 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Happy New Year!!!
Happy New Year!!! Laissez les bons luths rouler! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgLEWv9imE&hd=1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Recording the lute, Part 2B, mics and preamps
Noise, part 2B. Or not 2B. Imagine for a moment that you are in a library reading room. Prominently displayed on the wall are signs calling for silence. After a few minutes, your ears adjust to the sound. Through the window, you hear a steady, complex sound of traffic. On the wall, a clock ticks softly. You hear people moving, turning pages, and talking softly under the "silence" sign. You hear the click of keys on a laptop, and softer but more frequent sound of cell phones, tablets and phablets. A reader unwraps a piece of candy which creates an astonishingly loud sound. In the corner, a radiator emits a steady hiss. Overhead, fluorescent lights, one of the great uglies of civilization, pretend to burn. If you turned all of these off, you would then hear transformers, or "wall warts" plugged in to the wall to charge and power gizmos, all emitting a steady hum. All of these make noise, and you can measure the noise in terms of loudness, say 12 dB, 30 dB. But all of these sound different, and some are much more annoying than others. And most of these sounds are like microphones. A microphone is a noise producer. It is like the radiator or the wall wart, emitting a steady sound. Or perhaps it has a crackly sound. But whatever sound it has, you don't want it on your recording. A microphone records a sound, and then sends it to a preamp. And this preamp again has its own sound. Plug a mic into a preamp in a silent room, turn up the gain, and, voila, hiss, hum, noise, maybe some turbulence or crackle. Just like the radiator in the corner, it hisses away. But it is always there. And on lute recordings, it often is seriously, way too much there. And, obviously, that's because the lute is soft. Same with the clavichord. And the lute and the clavichord are two of the most difficult instruments to record. If you put a tuba next to the radiator, you won't hear the radiator. You will just hear nice, warm tuba. But the hiss is there, just in a smaller proportion to the overall signal. In the old days, in order to get rid of all the noise in the signal chain, one had to buy very, very expensive recording equipment and mics to basically turn off the radiator part of the sound. Now, the freeway sound, the sound of clothing, hum in the room, and the skritch skritch of the lute, that is all "signal" the mic does not know whether it is you playing the lute, or your audience member slowly, painfully unwrapping a cough drop. In the previous post we talked about how a lot of the noise comes from the player. And also that if the string is struck properly, you will get twice as much sound, more or less, and so your signal to noise ratio is much better. NB: In other words, a well struck pair of strings reduces noise better than the most expensive microphone, because the mic will amplify everything in the room. When you buy a microphone, it has a number for the amount of noise it makes. And that figure is usually between 10dB and 20dB, A weighted. A weighted means "the way we hear" weighted. If it does not say A weighted, it is a cheapo mic with fake specs. Lower is better, so 10 is way better than 20, A weighted. Unless, and this is a big unless, the noise is annoying. Remember the wrapper? If the self noise is irregular, it will be intrusive. If it is smooth, it will more or less disappear. Also, if it has a high, biting insect sound it will be annoying, even at the same volume. So that means, when you bring that mic into the room, or recording studio, you are bringing in let's say a tiny teapot that makes a soft, steamy noise. A noise that is always there. So if you play a really soft note on the lute, you will hear half teapot, half lute. For lute, ideally, you want that number to be 10-12dB, or lower. With exceptions noted below. What does 20dB sound like? Well, it depends on how close you are, but think average computer fan. But inside the mic, you can't walk away and have the noise go down. The noise in the mic follows the mic. The other "gear" noise is from the box that powers and records the microphone, sometimes this is the recorder itself like the Fostex FR2LE; sometimes you buy a separate box that just powers the mic. And, yes, this box makes some noise of its own as well. Unlike the mic which is always sputtering or hissing away in the corner, the amplifier may or may not make more noise at certain volume levels. There may, or may not, be a sweet spot where you get more amplification without cranking up the noise as well. So this box has a noise number as well. Here again, lower is better, but these numbers are really confusing, depending on the maker. The theoretical limit is around -129.5dB ein. What is "ein" besides the word for one? Well, it stands for equivalent input noise. So it isn'
[LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 1, sample rate
I think if you ask a bunch of engineers about sampling rates, you will get a bunch of different answers, and that is probably the way it should be. I don't consider the mathematical analysis the final determinant though, it has to sound good. And from a statistical point of view, many recordings don't sound good. So my work flow generally uses 48/24--and other factors than absolute sound go into this equation, although I think 48/24 is closest to the "unobtanium" 60/24. And as far as the fine points of noise shaping and resampling, if you use 48/24, you don't have to do any. You just send out the original as a FLAC file. So part of the process is smoothing out the production bumps. Further down the road, I will go into which DAW to use, and IMHO some DAWs sound better than others. dt __ From: andy butler To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 5:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 1, sample rate Tobiah wrote: > It's a common misconception that 88.2 is somehow easier to re-sample down > to 44.1. I suppose people think that the software can just throw away > every other sample, but the algorithm even in this case is far more complex. It really is simpler. Filter out all frequencies above 22050Hz and then throw away half the samples. There's no need for something called 'interpolation', which adds extra complexity when re-sampling from 96k to 44.1k If you are resampling, it makes a difference which software you use. Audition (aka Cool Edit) has always been known to perform well. andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 2A, lutes & noise, what is possible, what isn't
That is certainly, absolutely true, but I don't think it all depends on it, it is a big part of the equation and a serious aesthetic choice. A well struck string will record well up close and at a distance. Certainly Nylgut does not record as well at a distance. __ From: Martyn Hodgson To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 12:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 2A, lutes & noise, what is possible, what isn't Of course, it all depends if one wishes to record as close as possible to the actual sound heard by auditors in a concert space - or whether one wishes to record something as you might wish it sounded. The two are often not the same (as many live performances compared with CD recordings testify). MH __ From: David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net>; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 8 November 2013, 7:39 Subject: [LUTE] Recording the lute, Part 2A, lutes & noise, what is possible, what isn't Part 2: noise. Rest assured dear reader, that I have done my Maths. You will find many opinions on sample rates, and presumably for all the rest of these posts, and that is a good thing. Part 2A: noise. noisy lutes. too much noise, Dude. If you listen to a few hundred lute recordings, you will see that almost all of them are too noisy. This post will talk briefly about the noise from the lute, and how to make your recordings less noisy. The other parts of this post will go into the noise that comes from microphones and other parts of the recording process. [sidebar: the reason we are working backwards is because we need to arrive at the result--no amount of theory will be good unless the result is good, and science can only help for part of the task] Lute recording noise has several components. There is the noise from the recording gear, the noise from the lute, the noise from the player, and the noise from outside. In dealing with the noise, we must make a musical, interesting recording. It is not enough to simply remove the noise. And here, we must, again working backwards from the nice, low-noise musical recording, start with the lute. In starting with the lute it is important to understand what can be fixed right now, what can be fixed in the next few years, and figuring out what the recording is for. In the previous post, I talk about how the traditional sample rate is not ideal for the new marketing and aesthetic considerations of the internet, and down the line we will see how that connects to video. But first, we have to separate out the sounds that the lute makes that are problematic for noise. And here, the considerations are technique, stringing, and the setup. There are three parts to the lute as far as noise: setup, paired string technique, and tone. As long as the player can play every note in a composition, even one note at a time, it is possible to assemble those notes into an edited sequence. So there really is very little difference between a highly skilled player and one who isn't, as far as the notes are concerned. But the real difference is the tone and the noise. The highly skilled player has figured out how to strike the string and set up the lute. So the first key here is that the lute must be set up properly to make a beautiful sound, and, once it is set up, the players must learn the simple method of striking the paired strings so that they vibrate together, and then the player must be able to produce a sequence of good tones. Obviously, there is more to playing the lute, this is just about the recording. NB: The fact is, unless these three criteria are met, no microphone, no Zoom, no gear, no reverb or anything else will remove the noise and make a good recording. You could buy a truckload of zooms and they would all sound pretty much the same (but not exactly the same). It would be a complete waste of time. And, unless the lute is set up properly, the player will only be able to progress to certain point, but that's a subject for another day. You can easily reduce the amount of noise your instrument makes. Using pairs of strings under controlled conditions, it is possible to measure interference patterns that the strings create. It tur
[LUTE] Recording the lute, Part 2A, lutes & noise, what is possible, what isn't
Part 2: noise. Rest assured dear reader, that I have done my Maths. You will find many opinions on sample rates, and presumably for all the rest of these posts, and that is a good thing. Part 2A: noise. noisy lutes. too much noise, Dude. If you listen to a few hundred lute recordings, you will see that almost all of them are too noisy. This post will talk briefly about the noise from the lute, and how to make your recordings less noisy. The other parts of this post will go into the noise that comes from microphones and other parts of the recording process. [sidebar: the reason we are working backwards is because we need to arrive at the result--no amount of theory will be good unless the result is good, and science can only help for part of the task] Lute recording noise has several components. There is the noise from the recording gear, the noise from the lute, the noise from the player, and the noise from outside. In dealing with the noise, we must make a musical, interesting recording. It is not enough to simply remove the noise. And here, we must, again working backwards from the nice, low-noise musical recording, start with the lute. In starting with the lute it is important to understand what can be fixed right now, what can be fixed in the next few years, and figuring out what the recording is for. In the previous post, I talk about how the traditional sample rate is not ideal for the new marketing and aesthetic considerations of the internet, and down the line we will see how that connects to video. But first, we have to separate out the sounds that the lute makes that are problematic for noise. And here, the considerations are technique, stringing, and the setup. There are three parts to the lute as far as noise: setup, paired string technique, and tone. As long as the player can play every note in a composition, even one note at a time, it is possible to assemble those notes into an edited sequence. So there really is very little difference between a highly skilled player and one who isn't, as far as the notes are concerned. But the real difference is the tone and the noise. The highly skilled player has figured out how to strike the string and set up the lute. So the first key here is that the lute must be set up properly to make a beautiful sound, and, once it is set up, the players must learn the simple method of striking the paired strings so that they vibrate together, and then the player must be able to produce a sequence of good tones. Obviously, there is more to playing the lute, this is just about the recording. NB: The fact is, unless these three criteria are met, no microphone, no Zoom, no gear, no reverb or anything else will remove the noise and make a good recording. You could buy a truckload of zooms and they would all sound pretty much the same (but not exactly the same). It would be a complete waste of time. And, unless the lute is set up properly, the player will only be able to progress to certain point, but that's a subject for another day. You can easily reduce the amount of noise your instrument makes. Using pairs of strings under controlled conditions, it is possible to measure interference patterns that the strings create. It turns out that the strings must be in a certain phase relationship to make a good sound. You can see this phase with a high speed camera, and you can measure, in different ways, what happens when the pairs vibrate. That's not to say you can quantify a good sound, but most lute players know intuitively when the pair of strings seems to just pop out of the lute. That's when they are in phase, and that's why double strings are seriously cool. So step one is to get the setup right, and learn how to hit both strings so they vibrate together--the majority of players will hit one of the pairs before the other. If the strings are struck in sequence, instead of together, they clash, they interfere with each other. If the spacing and the setup is not right, it won't work. Most lutes simply have too little space between the pairs, or too much space. A narrow, roughly parallel pair can vibrate in phase, as well as a pair that is for example about 5.2 mm wide at the bridge. Most lutes fall in between these two workable dimensions, and they clash. Unless the strings can vibrate as pairs, the recording will always be noisy. There's a certain trick to hitting two at once, and you need the combo of the spacing and the stroke. Then you must hit pairs as you play. It is easy to do, but it takes patience. The next source of noise in the skritch skritch skritch of the fingers on the strings. Again, most lute recordings really have way too much surface noise, and though some of it can be removed digitally, there is just too much noise
[LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 1, sample rate
(snip) I suggest you google ABX, get the software, and blindly compare sample rates above 44.1kHz. Then do the same for various bitrate .mp3's and FLAC. dt: Thanks for the advice! I have already done all the tests; that's why I'm writing the article. But, since you raise the point, the tests can only show what you think you are hearing, they don't test what you are capable of hearing. This is a fundamental flaw in the methodology of the tests. So for example, if you see a video edit, and the person has moved say two inches between takes, you would see that person "jump". But if you hear an audio edit, it "appears" to be seamless. But if your ears were trained like your eyes, you would hear the person jump--you would say, Oh, there's a big edit there, the violinists moved a few inches. Similarly if you go back to digital video that is say 10 years old, it looks coarse and noisy, but at the time it looked like the latest thing. Because it was in fact the latest thing. The second, huge flaw in the methodology has to do with whether it is organic. So, for example, if you have two apples that look the same, and they each taste the same, there is no reason to eat the organic apple. Except I do eat the organic apple; that is the apple that I choose. And in music, you can have a recording process that is more organic, but you have to think about the whole process, not whether you can hear for example a dropped sample. The reason I like FLAC is not because of the numbers, but because it has an organic quality. Plus it hits certain notes, so to speak, in terms of the bigger picture of video, marketing, streaming, recording, archiving, and so on. Hopefully the pattern will emerge after the detour into lute land of Part Deux, the Lute itself. This is just the distillation of my recording experience, just for lute. Certain things are different when recording lute. That's not to say that there aren't other ways to make a recording! And, like the story of the video that once looked great, it is planned along a time scale. dt Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 5:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 1, sample rate On 11/7/2013 4:04 PM, David Tayler wrote: > > > snip > > 44.1kHz is fine for most things. 96k is great too, if you're one of the one's > that think that that they can hear the difference. Try an ABX test > before thinking that it's true for you. I agree however, that for > very serious recording, a higher rate should be used. > > I don't think 44.1 is fine for lute as it removes too much high frequencies > and is not optimum for internet. > As for testing, I have tested . > > snip > Mathematically, and in practice, 44.1 kHz is enough to accurately > represent any frequency up to the Nyquist, or 220050, which is > enough for most (all?) humans. > > Well, I think it is better to have more highs, Also the recommendation of AES, > > snip > > The analog to digital converter has a low-pass filter that prevents > any frequencies from getting to it that would cause aliasing or artifacts. > This is a place where a sample rate greater than 44100 is beneficial - > the requirements for the filter are relaxed, and it doesn't have to be > as steep, or have the possibility of affecting audible frequencies. > > I disagree. My test show 60 is optimum, and after that, it does not get > better. > > snip > 24 bit definitely has some advantages. The end result can be represented > in 44.1kHz just fine, but recording in 24 bit allows one to be a little > more sloppy setting levels, and grants more headroom during recording. > > We are talking about streaming the end product in 24 bits. > > snip > I'm unclear as to how you would arrive at the 60kHz figure. > > By testing the different rates with a sample clock. > > snip > FLAC is really great, but again, I challenge anyone to tell the difference > between the much smaller 320kbps bit-rate .mp3 and FLAC or WAV. > > I like it! > > > snip > I totally agree. I use 96k/24-bit for this reason. Why not capture > as much information as possible to archive for the future. > > 96/24 is OK, I prefer 48 24 but the differences are small. 96 has some > marketing advantages. > Can't go too far wrong with 96/24. > dt > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Recording the lute, Part 1, sample rate
snip 44.1kHz is fine for most things. 96k is great too, if you're one of the one's that think that that they can hear the difference. Try an ABX test before thinking that it's true for you. I agree however, that for very serious recording, a higher rate should be used. I don't think 44.1 is fine for lute as it removes too much high frequencies and is not optimum for internet. As for testing, I have tested . snip Mathematically, and in practice, 44.1 kHz is enough to accurately represent any frequency up to the Nyquist, or 220050, which is enough for most (all?) humans. Well, I think it is better to have more highs, Also the recommendation of AES, snip The analog to digital converter has a low-pass filter that prevents any frequencies from getting to it that would cause aliasing or artifacts. This is a place where a sample rate greater than 44100 is beneficial - the requirements for the filter are relaxed, and it doesn't have to be as steep, or have the possibility of affecting audible frequencies. I disagree. My test show 60 is optimum, and after that, it does not get better. snip 24 bit definitely has some advantages. The end result can be represented in 44.1kHz just fine, but recording in 24 bit allows one to be a little more sloppy setting levels, and grants more headroom during recording. We are talking about streaming the end product in 24 bits. snip I'm unclear as to how you would arrive at the 60kHz figure. By testing the different rates with a sample clock. snip FLAC is really great, but again, I challenge anyone to tell the difference between the much smaller 320kbps bit-rate .mp3 and FLAC or WAV. I like it! snip I totally agree. I use 96k/24-bit for this reason. Why not capture as much information as possible to archive for the future. 96/24 is OK, I prefer 48 24 but the differences are small. 96 has some marketing advantages. Can't go too far wrong with 96/24. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Zoom H1
One is a subset of the other, plus you have MS so you can use MS recording which is really great sometimes. So you can just use it as stereo, no problem, but if you want to do something different with the sound, it is there. Environment sound: I don't see this, but I did not design it. It seems to be designed for flexibility. I mean, it is a cheap box, box the slightly more expensive cheap box has a lot of great features. It still will sound worse than a pair of $100 dollar mics. dt - Original Message - From: R. Mattes To: David Tayler ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Zoom H1 On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 12:11:56 -0800 (PST), David Tayler wrote > The H2N (not the H2) has many features that are not available on the > H2, and has five microphones. But what for? The H2/H2Ns capsule setup is designed to caputure environment sound. That's fine if your goal is a live podcast, you are a journalist etc. In my recordings I'm usually very glad to _not_ capture all that coughing, feet shuffling, whispering etc. from the audience. If you really want to capture an audiophile rendering of the room you play in you need a much more elaborate micing. > No point in buying the H1 unless you > want something more compact. Price? Compactness? The H1 is an impressive practising aid (and that's what the OP was looking for). While practising at home, I usually have my Zoom (H4, the H1 wasn't arround when I bought mine) connected to my Netbook as an audio input. It's much easier to do fast playback with DAW software and I can control recording with my keyboard (or from my smartphone on the musicstand). > None of the Zoom products will sound as > good as a pair of decent microphones, but the H2N is small, easy, > compact and has a bunch of mics. dt What comparisons did you do? (please, no forum folklore). I compared my Zoom inbuild mics (same capsules as the H1/H2) with some external mics both connected to the H4 (this is one of the main benefits of the H4, you can connect external phantom-powered mics) and to an M-Audio Microtec. My results: the difference for _usual_ usecases (i.e. no CD/DVD Production) are pretty neglectible. Or: the Zoom capsules are rather impressive. The week part of all Zooms is the A/D converter, which is a bit noisy compared to the ones used in the M-Audio Mircotec or the Tascam handheld recorders. For recoding rehearsals, practising sessions or the occasional concert recording I'd go with the H1. Cheers, Ralf Mattes > - Original Message - > From: Stuart McLuckie > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:39 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Zoom H1 > > I want a recorder to improve my playing and it seems that the Zoom H1 > would fit the bill. However, the Zoom H2 seems to be the favourite home > recorder on this list. Does the H2 have any significant advantage > over the H1? > > Cheers - Stuart McLuckie > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: lute music for a Gesualdo programme
I played his one keyboard piece once on archlute (with octave jumps and maybe I left out the hard notes), and I have also seen it on harp, an unusual piece (on IMSLP) but ultimately maybe not the best music. http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b9/IMSLP259617-PMLP421018-Canzon_francese_del_Principe.pdf In this piece, I don't have a problem slowing down the fast notes :) dt - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen To: lutelist Net Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:29 AM Subject: [LUTE] lute music for a Gesualdo programme I'm to play some 15 minutes of lute music in a concert with music by Gesualdo. Are there any clues to lute music connected to him, his music or his circle? David -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Zoom H1
The H2N (not the H2) has many features that are not available on the H2, and has five microphones. No point in buying the H1 unless you want something more compact. None of the Zoom products will sound as good as a pair of decent microphones, but the H2N is small, easy, compact and has a bunch of mics. dt - Original Message - From: Stuart McLuckie To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Zoom H1 I want a recorder to improve my playing and it seems that the Zoom H1 would fit the bill. However, the Zoom H2 seems to be the favourite home recorder on this list. Does the H2 have any significant advantage over the H1? Cheers - Stuart McLuckie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: youtube copyright conundrum! Any advice?
This is a complicated question, but basically you have a less than one in one million chance of having a problem disputing this, and if you have permission, you should dispute it. Keep your dispute short, and just say you have permission, End of story. Pay zero attention to the fact that the matched bit is something different, it could be random. How many of these do I get in one year? I get about 250 in one year. Most of these are false matches. Suppose they file a DMCA claim? They won't, but if they do you can take the video down, or file a counter claim. dt From: WALSH STUART To: lutelist Net Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:04 AM Subject: [LUTE] youtube copyright conundrum! Any advice? No doubt it's all my fault - but this is a strange case. I uploaded a video to youtube yesterday and I got a notification: "Matched third-party content". That's not the really odd bit though. The video I uploaded was a modern piece and I've done similar before and in the description I have written the publication and the date. But yesterday, perhaps in a senior moment, I also included the publisher, OUP. As it was uploading I got a notification that it was taking longer than normal. I thought something was odd and deleted the reference to OUP - but, perhaps too late. On the other hand it's also possible that notification of "Matched third-party content" is not connected at all to my including OUP in the description. If I click on "Matched third-party content" I get this screen: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Untitled-1.jpg So my video 'may include a song owned by a third party' and one or more music publishing societies may administer the rights. But the really, really odd thing is that youtube is very clear at the point in the video in which the 'matched content' starts...15 seconds in... not from the beginning. But I am playing from the very start of the video and after 15 seconds I've got to bar 12. So the first 15 bars of Howard Skempton's Prelude 5 from Images is not 'matched content' but after 15 seconds, for an unspecified amount of time, it is. I now have two options: to dispute or acknowledge this. (And I don't know what 'acknowledge' amounts to) I contacted Howard Skempton, who seems to be a sporting chap and doesn't mind me having a crack at his pieces on a lute, and told him about this. He strongly urged me to dispute the matter. If I choose to dispute it, I get this screen: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Untitled-2.jpg There are seven options and the first three tell me that they are not valid and the 'acknowledge' button is inviting me to press it. Howard Skempton tells me that OUP hold the rights. I haven't got a licence or permission from OUP (just as hundreds of thousands of others on youtube who are playing music from books they have - or haven't - bought). Fair enough, I reluctantly suppose, OUP are the holders of the rights of the score and I haven't got specific permission from OUP (even though the actual composer is fine about it and I played the piece and took the photo). But what does 'acknowledge' mean? And what about the first 15 seconds? Could this possibly be some sort of scam? If I click 'acknowledge' do adverts start appearing and the minute amount of money start flowing - or trickling - to some dodgy copyright corporation? Stuart --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Recording the lute, Part 1, sample rate
I will be writing a guide in installments for my website on how to record the lute. There's more than one way to record the lute, so this is simply one way. Please add comments,so anyone reading can get some other opinions. Sample rate Why start with the sample rate? In a recording, you need to start at the end and work backwards. If you record at the CD sampling rate of 44.1Khz, that's not only not ideal, it is not ideal for the internet. So most recordings are recorded in the wrong container, and although you can resample the audio at the end of the process, you are better off setting the sample rate for the output. What is the sample rate? Basically, the frequency response, the highs and lows. CDs cut off the highs. Too much highs, and you may get some artifacts in the audible range. What is the bit depth? The bit depth is the resolution, like the megapixels in a camera. 24bit is the recording standard. CDs are in the 14 bit range, although officially 16 bit. What's the ideal sample rate for lute? 60Khz, 24 bit. Unfortunately, this sample rate is not available on most gear. That will probably change at some point, but for now, you want to get as close to that rate as possible. The three best options here are 96Khz, 88.2Khz and 48Khz, at 24 bit. Which if these three is best? I recommend 48/24. It compresses and plays well over the internet, and it is the video standard. If you ONLY are going to make CDs, 88.2 is good, and there are maybe some marketing advantages to 96Khz. I use 48/24. It isn't as good as 60Khz, but you get the highs back in the harmonics of the lute. So then what? At the end of the recording, you can make great MP3s and MP4s, but there is something way, way better, and that is 24 bit, 48Khz FLAC files. What are FLAC files? FLAC stands for Free Lossless Audio Coding. It is a good way to distributed audio files. These FLAC files sound virtually identical to what we hear in the control room, when mixing down the 24 bit source files. Way better than CDs, and the internet is already fast enough to stream FLAC files in 16 bit or 24 bit. Anything else? After making a recording, you want to have a disc with the original, 24 bit masters. Years from now, you can convert these into whatever form is current. Before the recording starts, you need a written agreement from the engineer that you own, or at least get a copy of the source files. Otherwise, you won't get them. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. __ From: Bruno Correia To: List LUTELIST Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte instruments? -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Double wide spacing for polyphony
Over the years I have tried out a number of ideas for a model of lute that is good for polyphony. Specifically, I wanted something for both playing and recording that reveals the maximum separation in the individual polyphonic parts, with tone and transparency. What I have now is a 65cm C36 lute copy, with shaded yew, and "double wide" spacing. The space is larger between the pairs of strings, and each pair is wider between the unisons and octaves. It does result in a more transparent sound for polyphony. However, not recommended for smaller hands. If you play the theorbo, it will seem small anyway. Actually, the transparency is also good for ricercars, even though the music is not as complex, but where you really hear the difference is in the multipart compositions, and also lute songs. The width takes some getting used to, and I will also try a model with the same spacing and a smaller mensur, when I get around to it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/42226428@N03/sets/72157635192655310/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hindemith was Re: general public Lute awareness
Yes, there was a concerto for Iadone. dt __ From: andy butler To: "" Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hindemith was Re: general public Lute awareness So, considering that Hindemith wrote for many different solo instruments. Did he ever write for Lute? andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: now- How did Iadone play?
My teacher, how to describe him? First, one of the most fun people to play music with, ever, and, second, one of the few teachers who can change your life forever. Amazing tone. Very large, chiseled fingers that could hold down two double courses with just the end of the finger. Played a two Hauser lutes, then later in life, a Papazian. Back then, that was the top of the line. I loved the sound of the Hausers, with gut strings even better. I have some recordings of him playing lute and harpsichord duets with wife Norma~IMHO that was his absolute best repertory, although he could play pretty much anything. For the lute/harpsichord duo they arranged all kinds of complex music and played it perfectly. The harpsichord was a very small one that sounded like a lute and sat on a table, maybe a Dolmetch. There were also hours and hours of the faculty concerts recorded by Vermont radio. Anyone's guess where those tapes are. At the "Collegium" in Putney Vermont in the late 60s we all were required to study musicianship at the workshop. Here we got the Hindemth system directly from Hindemith's student. I'm convinced that this is the reason, or one of the main reasons, that all those students went on to have successful careers. Thanks Joe~! dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
I think this is an interesting question, and I will risk posting an honest answer. The answer depends on who is "The General Public". I divide the groups as: the 200 countries of YouTube distribution, Academics, other lute players, people in the Early Music scene, and modern musicians, as these are the groups frequently mentioned here. First off, however, I must note that at a good conservatory or college offering a real music major, you are expected to play the piano, read figured bass and pass a score reading exam using multiple staves of an orchestra work and transposing clefs. I mention this because of the puzzling stories about people who can play the keyboard and transpose and so on. That is an entry level skill, and a requirement. I had to take two years of piano to pass the exam, along with all the other students, and that was to get just a basic BA in music. Hours of piano lab, hours of practice, and everyone had to do it, no exceptions. I had to take an even harder exam to be admitted for the MA, which included a test in Fugue writing and counterpoint. Basic training, basic training for just the BA. However, in many European systems, the requirements are more strict. So although I think it is cool that there are these stories, I think the very fact that we tell these stories sends the message to the General Public that, unfortunately, we didn't finish basic training. And what kind of a message is that? Most professional musicians on the violin, cello, piano, harpsichord, and so on, had to work to get these skills just to get into the Conservatory. They expect everyone to do these things fluently. This explains some of the "attitude" from modern players. Rightly or wrongly, they look at the basic training. And they had teachers who said, in a unified voice "no shortcuts." And that in no way means that the people in the lute stories are not good musicians, because they often are, but think for a moment if you played in any original, historical French baroque opera what you would have to do. You would have to read multiple clefs, including double figured (figures on both sides of the staff) baritone clef with the F on the middle line, and short score the other parts, none of which line up with anything familiar. Way harder than playing the piano. Most harpsichordists and organists who play opera can do this, most lute players cannot do this. Yes, it is harder on the lute. But the musical skills are the same and no harder. As far as the General Population of the Planet, the vast majority have no idea what a lute is, and lute players would be regarded as an historical oddity from movies and TV shows, e.g., cameo appearances of "Game of Thrones" or "House." Followers of Sting would have a very hazy idea that it is the funny looking instrument from Sting's foray into Early Music, but not much more. Certainly the YouTube boom has marginally improved awareness, however, most of the YouTube videos are not intended to be recordings in the sense of a produced recording. There's no one playing the lute on YouTube who can even remotely approach the chops of say for example the 14 year old girl who plays the Vivaldi Four Seasons on the guitar. The GPOTP may not know much, but they know raw talent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGfO2Dgc9Y As far as other lute players, lute players are highly regarded. This means we live in a bubble. As far as other Early Music musicians, sadly, but undeniably, lute players are regarded as the worst musicians. Bottom of the Barrel. That is, there is no other instrument that has a lower reputation, with the possible exception of the Krummhorn. The reason for this is complicated, but basically has to do with anecdotal stories that circulate about lute players in ensembles, basic sight reading, rhythm, score reading, ensemble skills and so on. The situation has changed slightly in the last few years, as more continuo players enter the pool. However, recorder players, cornetto, harpsichord, organ, oboe and viol players nowadays have advanced training, especially in notation and ornamentation, but also in ensemble playing and rhythmic training, that lute players just don't have. Their bar is higher. Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same commentators ar
[LUTE] Re: home recording
For what it is, the Zoom H2 is a decent sounding box, and very handy. I use it for teaching classes on how to get started in AV. But you cannot really improve the sound with EQ and a notch filter, the sound of the lute is too complex. What happens is as you fix the sound, you add coloration and it sounds artificial. It may not be noticeable to most people, but you will notice it, and the only people who listen to lute recordings are other lute players :) The best you can do is to roll off the bass below 64 Hz which will mostly eliminate electronic noise and rumble from traffic and airplanes and so on the add 1.2dB of gain with a Waves L2 limiter and and some high quality reverb. Next step up is an a pair of $89 mics like the Studio Projects B1. If you consider that they sound nearly as good as mics I paid $800 for back in the 1980s, I would say prices are reasonable. Consider for a moment that if you go on to Amazon or better yet Magnatune most of the lute recordings do not sound very good. And at least 75 percent of these use pretty expensive mics. What this means is that mic placement is key, and also that it isn't easy to record the lute or more ppl would do it better. Having said that, with a pair of MKH 20s and a Fostex FR2 LE, it is tough to screw it up. The Zoom is decent, but you can't push it to the top level. Placement of the Zoom will change the sound more than anything. It doesn't pick up as much surface noise as some mics, but it does pick up some. At least 50 percent of the surface noise in a recording is technique, but that is a long topic. And if you get rid of the other 50 percent, you won't really hear it so much. There's really no point in using audacity, but as long as your editing software accepts VST plugins you can add a good reverb to the final product. If you plan on doing anything extensive, or if you plan on doing it for more than a few years, use one of the big two: Sequoia or Pyramix. Samplitude is the same as Sequoia and you can often get the budget version for a few dollars. I sometimes see older versions for $10 and anything above version 8 is fine. dt __ From: William Samson To: David Tayler ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 3:02 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: home recording Hi David, Can you recall what frequency range(s) is(are) responsible for bringing out the 'plicky' sound? I sometimes have trouble with my Zoom H2 in that respect and it would be good to get a steer as to where to attack it with the EQ in my software (Audacity). At the moment I cut everything beyond 10kHz, and it helps a lot, but refinements would be good. Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: "[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 8 August 2013, 4:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: home recording The omni capsule is an NT45, not the 55. It has a very different character than the cardioid and is excellent in free field omni applications. As far as brightness, many factors cause this, but in general, omnis tend to have less of a presence peak than cardioids. Of course a mic like the MKH 40 is pretty flat 20-20, however, there is an acoustic principle at work as well. AS good as the NT45 is, I do not recommend it for lute if you are only buying a pair. That is because the mic works best at slightly longer distances from the sound source, and with the lute you have to have a medium distance mic to keep the signal to noise ratio under control, and to avoid picking up surface noise. As flanker mics in an array, or surround mics, they are fine, if not quite as smooth as the "big three". snip less brightness from an omni? snip An omni will, in most acoustics, pick up more reflected or ambient sound than a cardioid, by design. In a church or even a room, as the sound radiates out and back, it loses high frequency energy, then is picked up by the mic, So an omni has a greater ratio of rolled off sound to direct sound than a cardioid, which in turn lowers the total amount of high frequency energy. Some inexpensive mics have big presence peaks to make them sound more like pop music, but most omnis are fairly conservative in this regard. The lute has two almost impossible recording problems--surface noise and a high frequency bump in area we associate with speech. Because of this, most mics, no matter what the specs, no matter what the reviews, no matter what the salesperson who ha
[LUTE] Re: home recording
The omni capsule is an NT45, not the 55. It has a very different character than the cardioid and is excellent in free field omni applications. As far as brightness, many factors cause this, but in general, omnis tend to have less of a presence peak than cardioids. Of course a mic like the MKH 40 is pretty flat 20-20, however, there is an acoustic principle at work as well. AS good as the NT45 is, I do not recommend it for lute if you are only buying a pair. That is because the mic works best at slightly longer distances from the sound source, and with the lute you have to have a medium distance mic to keep the signal to noise ratio under control, and to avoid picking up surface noise. As flanker mics in an array, or surround mics, they are fine, if not quite as smooth as the "big three". snip less brightness from an omni? snip An omni will, in most acoustics, pick up more reflected or ambient sound than a cardioid, by design. In a church or even a room, as the sound radiates out and back, it loses high frequency energy, then is picked up by the mic, So an omni has a greater ratio of rolled off sound to direct sound than a cardioid, which in turn lowers the total amount of high frequency energy. Some inexpensive mics have big presence peaks to make them sound more like pop music, but most omnis are fairly conservative in this regard. The lute has two almost impossible recording problems--surface noise and a high frequency bump in area we associate with speech. Because of this, most mics, no matter what the specs, no matter what the reviews, no matter what the salesperson who has never made a classical music recording will tell you, most mics will fail miserably at recording the lute, and make a scratchy, "plicky" (plastic+icky) sound. Plick plick plick. The B1 and the Oktavas, as well as the very expensive ones I mentioned, just happen to have the EQ notches in the right places to counteract the basic noise from the lute, or at least keep it to a minimum. Preamp circuit topology also plays a role, but the mic is the main source of the noise and plicky sound. dt __ From: andy butler To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 1:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: home recording David Tayler wrote: > Of the Rodes, the NT5 omni capsule is way better than the >Rode cardiod capsule for lute, right, that's the NT55 less brightness from an omni? There's also an equivalent mic from SE electronics. SE4 (but the freq response diagram for it shows a sizable bump at 8kHz) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: home recording
Here are the specs for the Focusrite If you "Focus" on the EIN number, this measures the noise. Here the figure is -120dB, and it needs to be in the -128 to -129.5 range, if properly measured, (budget gear is never properly measured, so add a few points). What this means is that when you add the noise of the mic to the noise of the preamp, you get, well, noise. Not a lot of noise, but noticeable on a lute recording. Why the noise? Well, one reason is that it is powered by the USB bus. USB really does not have the power to run a mic preamp on a budget system. dt Frequency Response 20Hz - 20kHz +/- 0.1 dB THD+N < 0.002% (minimum gain, -1dBFS input with 22Hz/22kHz bandpass filter) Equivalent Input Noise (EIN) < -120dB: measured at 55dB of gain with 150I(c) termination (20Hz/22kHz bandpass filter) Gain Range +10dB to +55dB Max Input Level -3dBu -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: home recording
This is a complicated question, but basically the Rodes are really too bright for lute. The Studio Projects B1 (not the other models, only the B1) is the Budget King at $89 and the Oktava is fine--the omni capsules are better for lute of you have the right acoustic, and you can get a model with both omni and cardioid capsules for not much extra. If you just want the best value for the money, get the B1, if you want more flexibilty with a multicapsule system, get the Oktava with both sets of capsules. Of the Rodes, the NT5 omni capsule is way better than the Rode cardiod capsule for lute, it is brighter than the Oktava omni--the bass extension is similar, maybe the Oktava goes a bit lower if you need to mic a violone. Remember that for lute, bass extension picks up more traffic rumble, but this is easy to roll off in post. Most lute recordings have an astonishing amount of noise and junk in the sound, which is surprising. The SP B1 is fairly quiet, For super quiet, you need to buy a more expensive mic, and here the big three for lute in no particular order are the Schoeps M2H, the Sennheiser MKH 20 and the DPA 4003. Of these, the MKH 20 is silent in all respects, and can record a clavichord. The Focusrite USB is at the lower end of the preamp food chain, consider a flash recorder preamp combo like the Fostex FR2LE. There is a caveat here which is if you are thinking of expanding into video, then you want gear that works with video, and here the advantage of the Oktava 012 is that it can be put on a boom for doing interviews and so on. If you are in a church and it is too live, use the cardioid, if you are in a home studio, use the omni capsules. More flexibility, but a little more self noise than the B1. A three mic system with an inexpensive ribbon mic will be even better, but then you need an interface that will record three mics, like the Tascam DR 680. __ From: Rafael Munoz Rodriguez To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2013 6:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] home recording Dear friends, I would like to buy a matched pair of microphones to make some home recordings with the following instruments: theorbo, archlute, Baroque lute, Renaissance lute, vihuela and Baroque guitar. The mikes would work with a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. For the price I would like to pay I have been told that the best options could be a pair of Rode NT5 or Oktava MK-012. I have listen to some guitar sound samples and I find the Rode more brilliant and dynamic, but it cuts a bit the low range frequencies. The Oktava gives a more natural and woody sound, but I find it a bit dark with a strong presence of mid-range frequencies. Does anyone have recording experience with these specific models? Other suggestions are also welcome. Maybe there is a model wich is particularly good at recording early music plucked strings instruments. Thanks in advance. Best wishes, Rafael Munoz -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Oy vey ch'io cado
Does anyone know of an online score for Monteverdi Ohime ch'io cado (solo song). Thanks in advance. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Vivaldi, Bach and Schmelzer
Doh! Should be Biber not Schmelzer. Some Vivaldi, Bach and Biberfor our listening enjoyment, recorded on my trusty camcorder. Bach's Jauchzet Gott http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUF8lf9fHaM&hd=1 Biber's trumpet sonata http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxdjPCWpRl8&hd=1 Vivaldi's sacred motet In turbato mare irato http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52RSxWwSqQA&hd=1 dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Vivaldi, Bach and Schmelzer
Some vivaldi, Bach and Schmelzer for our listening enjoyment, recorded on my trusty camcorder. Bach's Jauchzet Gott [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUF8lf9fHaM&hd=1 Schmelzer's trumpet sonata [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxdjPCWpRl8&hd=1 Vivaldi's sacred motet In turbato mare irato [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vRRSxWwSqQA&hd=1 dt -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUF8lf9fHaM&hd=1 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxdjPCWpRl8&hd=1 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?vRRSxWwSqQA&hd=1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Mandolin cases
I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone have a recommendation for a baroque mandolin case? TIA David T To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] mayan apocalypse
A discussion of the issues surrounding the Mayan Apocalypse specifically for music performers involved in the Historical Performance movement (HIP). http://youtu.be/NYLlQxFP_HM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
Ideally what we need is for ppl to upload their spacings. I will upload one from about 20 years ago which is slightly wider than what I have now--I will call it "fat and happy" d --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Edward Mast wrote: From: Edward Mast Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "Gregory Brown" Cc: "'Luca Manassero'" , "'lute'" Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 5:18 AM No - width of the neck will be determined by the string spacing. By thickness, I mean the distance from the surface of the fingerboard to the back of the neck. Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Gregory Brown wrote: > By "thickness", do you mean the width of the neck? > > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Edward Mast > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 6:14 PM > To: Luca Manassero > Cc: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing > > String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see > mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course > lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 > course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred > chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier > on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. > Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . > Ned > On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > >> Dear list, >> five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened >> to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: >> the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin >> to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance >> instruments. >> In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years >> ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply >> used their without asking first. >> Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum >> instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them >> almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should >> play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original >> instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old >> little girl? >> Luca >> David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: >> >> It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the >> width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first >> three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs >> and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the >> top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that >> is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for >> the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early >> style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the >> maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. >> The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but >> that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress >> the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, >> I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic >> pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like >> buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have >> to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is >> worth getting it right when it is built. >> dt >> --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1]<[3]jurek...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>From: Jerzy Zak [2]<[4]jurek...@gmail.com> >>Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing >>To: "lute mailing list list" [3]<[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM >> >> Dear Lutelist, >> A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little >> experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need >> some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both
[LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
psichord registration indicates that in double manual instruments the plucks were slightly staggered, or ruffled, to create a slight roll in the sound. ' How does any analysis of registration inform us that the plucks of a chord were 'rolled'? - or do you mean that in a poorly regulated instrument the two rows of jacks may be out of synchronisation? MH --- On Thu, 22/11/12, David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords To: "lute" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Thursday, 22 November, 2012, 18:45 A rolled chord is an arpeggio, literally, like a harp, and these go back to the Early Renaissance. They probably date back to antiquity, if one wants to include attempts at reconstructing Lyre style from world music sources like the Eritrean Begena. Written out arpeggios feature in Mudarra's famous work of course. A careful analysis of harpsichord registration indicates that in double manual instruments the plucks were slightly staggered, or ruffled, to create a slight roll in the sound. Any quill strum on a lute or cittern of course rolls the chord; the rolling is built-in. dt --- On Sat, 11/17/12, Christopher Wilke <[1][4]chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Christopher Wilke <[2][5]chriswi...@yahoo.com> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "lute" <[4][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Saturday, November 17, 2012, 9:22 AM Martyn, I agree with you that there is no evidence for for rolled chords before the 17th century. I'm not sure we can translate this absence into any pronouncements about performance practice. Interesting that the subject of rolled chords on piano has been brought into this. There are in fact many aspects of 19th century performance that are in abundance in late19th/early 20th cent. recordings but never discussed in contemporary treatises. One finds, for example, that inegalite was so widespread as to be nearly ubiquitous, even though it is not often mentioned. I haven't heard a single recording or piano roll that features the type of rubato in which the left hand truly remains in strict tempo while the right hand plays freely around the beat, even though this is often discussed in the treatises. Clearly, their ideas regarding "strict tempo" was highly subjective and not obliged to use the type of metronomic exactitude we would expect today. Performing this repertoire in strict adherence to contemporary writings would lead to something quite different than the audio recorded record reveals. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][5][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Christopher Wilke <[2][6][9]chriswi...@yahoo.com> Cc: lute <[3][7][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:36 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords Dear Chris, I'm not sure I agree with you when you write "This lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing and well known practice.". It might equally imply that before this time the practice of 'rolled' chords was unusual. But please don't misunderstand my position: I'm not categorically saying that 'rolled' chords were never played pre-17th century; merely that there's no historical evidence for the practice (unlike the position for such chords in 19th/early 20th century piano performance). regards, Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[1][4][8][11]chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Christopher Wilke <[2][5][9][12]chriswi...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][6][10][13]hodgsonmar...@yah
[LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
A rolled chord is an arpeggio, literally, like a harp, and these go back to the Early Renaissance. They probably date back to antiquity, if one wants to include attempts at reconstructing Lyre style from world music sources like the Eritrean Begena. Written out arpeggios feature in Mudarra's famous work of course. A careful analysis of harpsichord registration indicates that in double manual instruments the plucks were slightly staggered, or ruffled, to create a slight roll in the sound. Any quill strum on a lute or cittern of course rolls the chord; the rolling is built-in. dt --- On Sat, 11/17/12, Christopher Wilke wrote: From: Christopher Wilke Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "lute" Date: Saturday, November 17, 2012, 9:22 AM Martyn, I agree with you that there is no evidence for for rolled chords before the 17th century. I'm not sure we can translate this absence into any pronouncements about performance practice. Interesting that the subject of rolled chords on piano has been brought into this. There are in fact many aspects of 19th century performance that are in abundance in late19th/early 20th cent. recordings but never discussed in contemporary treatises. One finds, for example, that inegalite was so widespread as to be nearly ubiquitous, even though it is not often mentioned. I haven't heard a single recording or piano roll that features the type of rubato in which the left hand truly remains in strict tempo while the right hand plays freely around the beat, even though this is often discussed in the treatises. Clearly, their ideas regarding "strict tempo" was highly subjective and not obliged to use the type of metronomic exactitude we would expect today. Performing this repertoire in strict adherence to contemporary writings would lead to something quite different than the audio recorded record reveals. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Christopher Wilke <[2]chriswi...@yahoo.com> Cc: lute <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:36 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords Dear Chris, I'm not sure I agree with you when you write "This lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing and well known practice.". It might equally imply that before this time the practice of 'rolled' chords was unusual. But please don't misunderstand my position: I'm not categorically saying that 'rolled' chords were never played pre-17th century; merely that there's no historical evidence for the practice (unlike the position for such chords in 19th/early 20th century piano performance). regards, Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[1][4]chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Christopher Wilke <[2][5]chriswi...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Gary R. Boye" <[4][7]boy...@appstate.edu> Cc: "WALSH STUART" <[5][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>, "lute" <[6][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 18:47 Martyn, It is very telling that when signs for arpeggiation - i.e. separee slashes, the % sign in Kapsberger and others' theorbo music - are introduced, they include no information regarding speed or rhythm. This lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing and well known practice. How long the practice was in existence and in what precise guise it was used is, as I said before, inconclusive. Few would argue today that because indications for articulation or dynamics are rare in much early written music, one should refrain from playing with either. (I said, "few would argue...". Some still do.) Perrine's suggestions for rhythmicizing separee ciphers is the exception that proves the rule. My suspicion is that these may not be a literal record of contemporary lutenists' performance practice. Rather, he was probably attempting to show keyboard players how to approximate an idiomatic lute effect via the resources of a different medium. There is a parallel in the piano works of 19th century Spanish composers like Albeniz and Granados, who often evoked guitar rasgueados with fast arpeggiated figures. These works in transcription hav
[LUTE] Happy Thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving from Voices of Music In between the Turkey and the football game, here is Dominique Labelle singing Vivaldi "In turbato mare" http://youtu.be/ZjAooY2vj0I?hd=1 And also a special shout out to Luthval, who has cruised past the 2,000,000 mark on his YouTube channel Awesome! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: You tube presentations
Most videos are made with an NLE--nonlinear editor. In fact, CDs are made the same way. It just means that the data can arranged from files on a disk anyway you want. If you don't have an NLE, you can get one from Magix (inexpensive, very good, same professional music engine as Sequoia/Samplitude) Abobe "Elements" (slightly more expensive, lots of built in features but somewhat oversimplified) Sony Vegas (more expensive, pro features) or Adobe Premiere Pro (what the pros use). I don't recommend the others for long and complicated reasons. Anyway, on your NLE, you drop in a soundtrack on the audio time line, then drop in your "photos" of the score on the video time line which runs along with the audio time line. It is sort of like a "Burma Shave" commercial. IF you are old enough to have seen Burma Shave, Ack. These images can be any format, like JPEG, TIFF or even photoshop PSD files. If you are using Score, Finale, etc for your score, simply export your pages as tiffs, jpegs, etc. If your music editor does not have an easy to use export crop feature, I recommend changing the paper size of your score to 16x9 cm or inches, doesn't matter, it is the ratio that is important. Technically, you want 1920x1080 pixels. Then your photos of your pages will be the right size. 300 dpi is plenty. If you want the music to float, use a photo format that supports transparency, like Gif--if the music floats over another image. For paper, find some nice real paper images and float the music over the paper. You can also use the cheesy built-in paper of Score, some of them are OK. Then drop your pages on the timeline where you want them in the music. If desired, add transitions for "page turns". Here is a very basic one I did some time ago, I photographed an old sheet of paper and put the music over it. You can do much more complex things as well, including scrolling. http://youtu.be/xSQgvuxlvzc?hd=1 When done, export as H264 (MP4) 1080p progressive with minimum 256 bitrate for the audio track. You can then stream this from your dedicated server, if you have a server, or upload it to Vimeo or YouTube. dt --- On Thu, 11/22/12, Anthony Hart wrote: From: Anthony Hart Subject: [LUTE] You tube presentations To: "'Lute net'" Date: Thursday, November 22, 2012, 5:58 AM I have seen on several You Tube presentations a copy of the score where as the music plays the score moves along with it. Is there an application which can produce this? I wish to use this on my own website. Thanks Anthony -- __ Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM,ALCM. Musicologist and Independent Researcher Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552. e-mail: [1]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web: www.monsignor-reggio.com To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=resea...@antoninoreggio.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
That's true, and I would add the most of the bar chord difficulty comes from the placement of the second course, it has to be under the knuckle, not the finger, or it won't work. So the spacing at the nut should factor in the bar chord as well. d --- On Wed, 11/14/12, Edward Mast wrote: From: Edward Mast Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "Luca Manassero" Cc: "lute" Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 3:14 PM String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear list, > five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened > to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: > the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin > to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance > instruments. > In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years > ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply > used their without asking first. > Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum > instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them > almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should > play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original > instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old > little girl? > Luca > David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: > >It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the > width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first > three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs > and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the > top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that > is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for > the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early > style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the > maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. > The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but > that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress > the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, > I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic > pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like > buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have > to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is > worth getting it right when it is built. > dt > --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1]<[1]jurek...@gmail.com> wrote: > > From: Jerzy Zak [2]<[2]jurek...@gmail.com> > Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing > To: "lute mailing list list" [3]<[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM > > Dear Lutelist, > A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little > experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need > some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of > strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at > least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all > measurements. > Thanks in advance! > Jerzy Z > --- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [5][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > References > > 1. mailto:[6]jurek...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:[7]jurek...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. [10]http://www.cs.dartmo
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is worth getting it right when it is built. dt --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak wrote: From: Jerzy Zak Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "lute mailing list list" Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM Dear Lutelist, A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all measurements. Thanks in advance! Jerzy Z --- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reconstructing Dowland; deconstructing Dowland
Of course the original sources are fine, I sort of have a question about whether they are like those half-baked loaves of bread in the store that you heat up at home--whether some of the details were left out so you could provide them at the time of playing, or whether there were, as I suspect, conventions or rules for filling in the details that people knew and did not have to write down. Otherwise it is sort of a "raw toast" scenario. When Lumsden made his editions, he basically "corrected" some of the pieces, sometimes in a very clever way, but sometimes so that they lost their character. And for me that is what I would like to avoid, so I go for versions that have their own character. dt --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Dan Winheld wrote: From: Dan Winheld Subject: Re: [LUTE] Reconstructing Dowland; deconstructing Dowland To: "David Tayler" Cc: "lute" Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 2:22 PM Thank you Professor Tayler! Excellent points, exquisite playing, and -from what I can hear on my wretched computer- a correct & satisfying tenor line. That would have been a bit slow tempo for me some years ago, but as I age it's becoming pleasant to take more time with things. And enjoy the work of others who do. In my own career as a lazy consumer of lute food, I just plays 'em as I finds 'em. If one version doesn't smell right for one reason or another, I search until I find one that does. And a few times, I have also bit the bullet and corrected inner voices- to the best of my relatively limited, less-educated ability. Many, many of the solos exist as lute songs- and of course the "Lachrimae, or Seaven Teares..." consort edition- and these sources can provide some guidance for improving the helter-skelter lute solos. And mentally slapping my own wrist as I try to monitor my impulse to dribble out some crass ornamentation at times. (Tourette's Syndrome on the lute can get ugly if not kept in check.) One of these days you should do another local luter's workshop- this time on the Dowland solos, (and maybe a couple of Danyel, Rossiter, & Holborne tunes as well). I'll supply the single malt, maybe even the premises, if that helps... Dan On 11/13/2012 12:33 PM, David Tayler wrote: > Most of Dowland's lute solos come down to use a sketch--two outside > lines, a few chords, and some "noodly appendages"--ornaments added by > lutebook owners or their copyists. > Many conclusions can be drawn, but the basic question remains, what to > do with all of these sources? Obviously, performing them "as is" is one > solution, and perfectly fine--a snapshot in time of what a lute player > of the time would have played. Absoutely OK, and there it is, in the > ms. But suppose there is more? > The other path is to add inner voices and strip out the noodly > appendages. I've given this quite a bit of thought over the last > twenty-five years, and I have a few simple guidelines. > 1. Eliminate parallel fifths and octaves. Dowland never wrote bad > counterpoint, so these have to go. Famous example is the version of > Lachrimae with the parallel fifth in the opening phrase, even though > Dowland's published version is different. > 2. Strip out "orbiting" noodly appendages. One sure sign of cookbook, > color-by-number ornaments are those that present a set of added melodic > sequences that start and end on the same note. Accomplished composers > rarely use these, they are intended mainly for students. By returning > to the same note, you mostly avoid the problem of parallel octaves and > fifths, thus, an amateur who could not read music and did not study > counterpoint could provide "correct" counterpoint in simple ornaments. > Ornamentation treatises mention this trick as a way to dive in to > ornamentation: nothing wrong with it, but it is for beginners--not > Dowland. > 3. Make sure cadences have leading tones somewhere in the bar, and end > chords with thirds in the harmony. Although you see open fifths in mid > century lute works, by 1590 you mainly see full harmony. A skilled > player would not play G Major with a third and C "Major" without the > third just to avoid fifth position, and you see this in the ms sources. > Whether these open chords were simply sketches, or intentionally left > to the play to fill in, foreshadowing later works such as Visee, these &g
[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
Research into the Chitarrone stopped after the publication of the famous article by Spencer, et al. This had the astonishing effect of erasing, removing and deleting the Chitarrone from the early music performance revival. Collateral effects include the sidelining of the many other types of extended neck instruments that were developed in the early 17th century. Renewed interest into the research of this and other instruments will yield clues as to the specific meanings of the contemporaneous terms as well as hopefully renew interest in playing the instruments. Erasing instruments is not new; the dulcian was completely erased for decades before one was discovered with an identifying label in a sunken pirate ship. Now people are playing it again. --- On Tue, 10/16/12, Bruno Correia wrote: From: Bruno Correia Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone To: "List LUTELIST" Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 6:11 PM The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone: "The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630." Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just as the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique. The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas efect e so on... -- Bruno Correia Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
You ask, by the look on your face Why the pegbox bends back at the base It's not Broken, awry Or to stick in your eye It's just so it'll fit in the case -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
The gimped gut I have seen is essentially a gut string with wire pressed into it. I'm speaking of a wire string that is essentially invisible--the core, not the whole string as it would be wound with gut. I personally find the "transition" to overspun strings completely unsatisfactory, and I suspect this was an important concern for ren & baroque players. d --- On Mon, 7/9/12, David van Ooijen wrote: From: David van Ooijen Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes To: "lute" Date: Monday, July 9, 2012, 1:22 PM On 9 July 2012 21:48, David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >Theoretically, a length of wire could be covered with gut or silk to >produce a string with ideal properties, and strings used on some >non-western instruments use this type of string--the wire is on the >inside, so it does not affect the pluck. However, no one makes this >lute string, Dan Larson makes Gimpoed (gut on metal). Savarez makes gut on carbon (I'm sure I have the details wrong here, but that was what I was told and shown last week, but frankly, I wasn't all that interested ...) David -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
This is great--did not know about these strings. dt --- On Wed, 7/11/12, Martyn Hodgson wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, "JarosAA'aw Lipski" Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 8:29 AM Kurschner (in Europe) makes 'Luxline' strings described below: LK, LS Luxline The Luxline is a string especially designed by us to give an even transition between plain gut and wound strings, similar to an open wound string in function. It does away with the inherent problems of openwound strings because the wire is embedded in the gut, giving a relatively smooth surface, thereby relieving bowing and left hand difficulties. Suitable for bowed and plucked instruments and here especially as diapasons on Theorbo, Chitarrone and Archiliuto. Luxlines with solid silver wire are somewhat brighter than those with copper wire, but only available up to 1,60 mm equivalent diameter. MH --- On Wed, 11/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski <[1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski <[2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 14:26 I am afraid I agree with Ron. Tinctoris tells us about the German invention of brass strings which were added to enhance the sonority. He doesn't give precise instructions on how it was done, so it can be interpreted in 3 ways (as I wrote before). BTW, "Ore" is not equal to brass. Ore means Calamine and only with a copper addition it gives a proper brass. However Tinctoris probably had brass in mind when writing ore. Gimped gut is not exactly the same as gut on metal core. I won't discuss gimped strings in detail as the full info is available at Gamut website [1][4]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ ,but gimped means that the wire is twisted with gut. The other type could have a metal core and gut twisted on brass. In this case a wire wouldn't be visible at all unlike gimped gut which gives a barber-pole or candy-stripe appearance. It would only enhance the mass of a string, diminish its diameter and add to sonority. Unfortunately no one makes this type of strings in Europe (as David mentioned). I think it could be beneficial to ask a Latin expert on exact meaning of Tinctoris's text. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Mathias RAP:sel w dniu 11 lip 2012, o godz. 14:11: >> Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, a translation from original Latin text doesn't give >> a clear idea whether Tinctoris writes about plain wire, gimped gut, or wire used >> as a core for a gut string. > > The text is pretty clear IMO. It says they added an octave string of ore (i.e. bronze) to their lowest course (i.e. 5th). Plain metal, neither gimped gut nor wire used as a core for a gut string (which is pretty much the same, if I'm not mistaken). > > That may not imply, of course, that the author Tintoris was right. I for one, though, tend to believe him. > > Mathias > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. [6]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
Musicians in the medieval and renaissance periods used all available string material, although it is likely that gut and wire were the most popular. This includes brass and earlier versions of drawn wire. Gold alloy strings were used on harpsichords, and lasted more or less forever, as they could be melted down and redrawn if they broke. Violinists are known to have used wire as well. Theoretically, a length of wire could be covered with gut or silk to produce a string with ideal properties, and strings used on some non-western instruments use this type of string--the wire is on the inside, so it does not affect the pluck. However, no one makes this lute string, although it would be easier to make than a lute. One could even take nylgut or nylon and use that as the wrapper to produce a durable substitute that would not have a transition effect like overspun strings. Also theoretically, had a such a string existed, which seems likely since it solves the diameter problem, the move to overspun strings could have been made simply because those strings were louder or easier to manufacture. The impetus to have louder strings of course was less of a problem than it is now, owing to the prevalent acoustic environment. Baroque instruments are far louder than they were even twenty years ago, as people use thinner bridges, heavier bows with more bow hair, and high tension strings on bowed instruments. My small archlute was loud enough in the 1980s, now it would be drowned out. As more and more information goes online, and is searchable, it becomes relatively easy to view historical performance practice, which until recently was available, but not instantly available worldwide. Basically, uniformity, whether it applies to technique, the sources of music and mss, strings or types of instruments, is a twentieth century phenomenon that has no basis in the historical record. Materials that were unavailable would be for example nylon, nylgut, carbon fiber, titanium, and so on. Just as original glues can create a very strong bond, so can original string materials create a strong sound. However, if you want loud, learn the tuba. dt --- On Sun, 7/8/12, WALSH STUART wrote: From: WALSH STUART Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes To: "Lutelist" Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 2:52 PM (perhaps this has been discussed before) Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass strings [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also very much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle Ages p.22, 1992). Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: TRe: YouTube going too far?
I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, they may claim that they actually own it (and then they are real trolls, after all). Then you have very little recourse. --- On Thu, 7/5/12, Sauvage Valery wrote: From: Sauvage Valery Subject: [LUTE] TRe: YouTube going too far? To: "'Lute List'" Date: Thursday, July 5, 2012, 7:55 AM I had often the same problem (Dowland, Narvaez, Milan, Bach...). I just disput the claim and usually they automatically withdrawn. Last one was about "la Cancion del Emperador"... I disput the claim (by Harry Fox Cie) but they maintain it, I had to delete the video, then to post it again, they again claim on it and I argue in the disput with the fact it was published in Spain in 1538 (so public domain), that I played myself, from the original source and I add the following text : "Music and lyrics published in 1922 or earlier are in the Public Domain in the United States. No one can claim ownership of a song in the public domain. Public Domain music and songs may be used by anyone . . . without permission, without royalties, and without any limitations whatsoever." And sayed that the Harry fox claim was an abuse of the copyright laws. (I find the text quoted here : [1]http://www.pdinfo.com/ ) I think it is important to write : "Public domain", "original source", and to mention the date of publication of the music played (and country too). Valery -Message d'origine- De : [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de David van Ooijen Envoye : jeudi 5 juillet 2012 16:15 A : [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: YouTube going too far? On 5 July 2012 16:05, Ron Andrico <[5]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > To make a long story short, the only words Youtube needs to see in > response is that the music is in the Public Domain, or the person > posting the music is the verified copyright holder. The challenge is > then automatically withdrawn. It is not. Because this is the second time YouTube challenges this particular (and not at all popular) video. I'm not in it for the money, but coorperation claiming Greensleeves simply feels wrong. I also post 'fingerstyle covers' of pop songs (I've just recorded Paradise by Sade, early music of sorts. I will upload later today). Obviously these are far more popular, and obviously there are copyright holders involved who claim their share. Fair enough. But Greensleeves ... David -- *** David van Ooijen [6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.pdinfo.com/ 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: YouTube going too far?
Harry Fox is one of the collection agencies that leans to the trolling side, that is, you may get flagged for material that seems to be completely unrelated to your work, even referring to a different work, and they don't answer your email. Since they have a fax number, I would suggest sending a fax, stating that they are infringing on your revenue or rights or whatever. I'm assuming that you "disputed" it, and since they probably will not get back to you the claim will disappear after one month. It is important to remember a few things here. First, you dispute will not be read by anyone with any knowledge of anything, so to try to present a reasonable, logical case is a complete waste of time. You need to show proof. Second, there is no point in saying you made an arrangement, as that will look suspect. Third, if it is your edition, you should write and sign a letter saying that you own all the rights to the edition (which, if it really is your edition, you do). In the letter, you must grant permission to your channel to use your work including all distro rights. Fourth, if there is an online, PD version free and clear, you should make it a priority to link to it. State, I used IMSLP, and here is the link. No way for them to wriggle around that. In general, the copyright laws are quite complex. For example there are many, many cases where one edition lifts material from another one. Who owns the copyrights then? Well, no way to determine that. Best to steer clear completely away. What does YouTube want? They want to keep it online and not have to deal with it. So they need a CYA letter from you, a clear, concise single letter that assign any and all distribution rights to the performance, the edition, and any artwork or graphics--saying you have the rights from edition X (your edition) or a link to the PD file, or both. The trolls will not go away. They reason is that 50 percent of the troll-ees will neither know nor care, and trolls just collect the ad revenue for no work. Free money for them. They aren't interested in your work or rights. There is a head bean-counter just counting videos. And that is it, EOS. 95 percent of my videos are flagged immediately, and half of those are flagged by three or four different freeloaders. Obviously they can't all be right, and YouTube knows they are trolls. Just dispute it, write a formal letter (safe it as a template), and wait. Your video will show "disputed" and no ads will appear. dt --- On Thu, 7/5/12, David van Ooijen wrote: From: David van Ooijen Subject: [LUTE] Re: YouTube going too far? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, July 5, 2012, 7:14 AM On 5 July 2012 16:05, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > To make a long story short, the only words Youtube needs to see in response > is that the music is in the Public Domain, or the person posting the music > is the verified copyright holder. The challenge is then automatically > withdrawn. It is not. Because this is the second time YouTube challenges this particular (and not at all popular) video. I'm not in it for the money, but coorperation claiming Greensleeves simply feels wrong. I also post 'fingerstyle covers' of pop songs (I've just recorded Paradise by Sade, early music of sorts. I will upload later today). Obviously these are far more popular, and obviously there are copyright holders involved who claim their share. Fair enough. But Greensleeves ... David -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Tynwald Day
Happy Tynwald Day! Some delicious Scarlatti for your entertainment. http://youtu.be/QrEpRJR4pFc?hd=1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Youtube claims
Keep a screen capture of each claim. dt --- On Sun, 5/13/12, Valery Sauvage wrote: From: Valery Sauvage Subject: [LUTE] Youtube claims To: "'Lute Net'" Date: Sunday, May 13, 2012, 11:30 PM I have the same problems, most of the time with music guitarist plays, as this music is edited by some publishers in guitar transcriptions. They have a special function looking for every video if it is matching title, music, composer's name or other meta data, then there is an automatic claim. So it is for Bach, Dowland, De Visee, Milan, Narvaez... So you have to go to copyright infos, and "disput" the claim (there is a disput process in two or three windows...). My argumentation is : public domain music, played by myself from original sources. And it is enough to stop the claim. (and get rid of the ads...) Val -Message d'origine- De : [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de David van Ooijen Envoye : samedi 12 mai 2012 21:55 A : Lute Net Objet : [LUTE] Re: Goe From My Window (Folger Library) On 12 May 2012 09:57, Stuart Walsh <[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > My Window'. Two odd things: adverts appeared on it and youtube said that > the tune was copyright and the copyright belongs to 'rumblefish'! > > I've contested this and for the moment the ads have gone away. I'm harassed by YouTube as well. For early music, like my most recent De Visee / Coste clip. I keep telling them Tallis is Dead (they never heard of Byrd). But so far every time I contested their claims (they're not claims actually, they say they cannot verify my claims), they eventually withdraw their objections, so I do keep contesting. I think we should keep protesting, because if we keep silent we certainly loose out (we will loose out anyway probably ...) David -- *** David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re: Dürer
Years ago, I submitted the Durer lute-perspective as a letter to partially rebut the camera obscura debate (they maintained that that was no evidence of a mechanism for perspective) but it was never published. - -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
I have to say for me I think the available evidence points nowhere. People can't even agree on whether the pieces are playable on the lute, and not only that, "playability" is not an indicator of authorship or orchestration, so who cares? All this stuff about the "original intent" of the composer is really about the intent about the people who write the articles. Shorter Bach: Can't play it? Please practice. Don't like it? Make an arrangement. --- On Sun, 4/29/12, Roman Turovsky wrote: From: Roman Turovsky Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted To: "lutenet" Date: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 7:42 PM Jarek, I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks it does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily Antipov, an excellent Russian player who actually can perform "Lute Suites" as written (he knows no technical difficulties). The "Lute Suites" are simply not performable by an average professional player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate giveaway (besides being out of lutenistic character). RT From: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> Roman, I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste of time. JL WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01: > a geetar then. > Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have been item Y" > may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute Suites". > RT > > - Original Message - From: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> > To: <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > >> but in this case a spade is not a spade :) >> JL >> >> >> WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32: >> >>> Yes, >>> but - >>> sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, >>> and just call a spade a spade. >>> RT >>> >>> - Original Message - From: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>> To: <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>> >>> Eugene, Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: > I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. > > Eugene > > From: [6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of JarosAA'aw Lipski [[8]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM > To: [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute > - or -You know what I am going to say nextaEUR"perhaps you should sit
[LUTE] Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed
All the gambists I know live on it and think Forqueray 5th suite is way harder. --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Roman Turovsky wrote: From: Roman Turovsky Subject: Bach's Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed To: "David van Ooijen" , "lute net" Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:51 AM All the gambists I know (a goodly #) dread playing that aria. RT - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" <[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> To: "lute net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed > On 30 April 2012 20:34, Roman Turovsky <[3]r.turov...@verizon.net> wrote: >> JSB didn't play gamba either as evidenced by his reassignment of nicely >> playable lute part in the MatthaeusPassion to an impossible one for gamba >> in >> the 2nd version. >> Any gambist would tell you that that "gamba" part is pure hell. > > > Another blanket statement I beg to differ with, as my gamba friend are > generally happy with the Suesses Kreuz aria and find it to work well > on their instruments, however much I try to persuade them to give it > back to me. ;-) But then again, some of these gambis must have played > the piece hundreds of times over the years. It's remarkable, btw, how > much the character of the aria changes when the obligato part is > played on a lute. Easier, lighter, 'Suesser' as opposed to heavy, hard > and 'Kreuzig'. I keep telling conductors, but playing Bach passions is > another of those established habits enshrined in today's Early Music > Esperanto. > > David - back to St. John > > > -- > *** > David van Ooijen > [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.net 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Android app for recording lute
Zoom H2 and live the good life. --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Adam Olsen wrote: From: Adam Olsen Subject: [LUTE] Android app for recording lute To: "Lute List" Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 1:21 PM Is there a good app for recording yourself on Android? I tried a few apps, but the sound came out very distorted and blown out. I know the phone's microphone is better than that, because if I use the video camera app it sounds fine. Any suggestions? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
The "planting" is an interesting topic which one could discuss from many angles, however, the essence here is that if you"plant" the finger, you stop it from vibrating. So for legato playing, one must "drive through" or use a combination of "set" and drive through. There are times when some of the fingers of both hands need to be pre-positioned. In the video you can see that I put some of the fingers down into the strings before I use them., trying to stop only one of the two strings. Other times I do not and drive through the strings. Important to mention that this is just what I have figured out for myself after forty+ years of noodling, it isn't the "right" way. There are so many ways to strike the string and that is why the lute is so intriguing and subtle in articulation. However, when this is not the case, as in playing a riff or a simpler textures I recommend driving through the strings, which in turn requires enough space between the pairs, and a very well timed and placed stroke.In driving through the strings, ideally the string makes a new note BEFORE the old note has ended. Technically, this overlapping of notes is called "over legato". The reason that this is important is that the big advantage of double strings is that they can ring through better than single strings, and, interestingly, "thumb out" and "thumb over" ring through best, however, thumb in makes a rounder sound at the expense of legato. It is not always possible to play over legato, but it is an important sound for the lute. Sometimes, those fingers really net to be set in place. I think I have a sneaking suspicion that if I could raise my technique two levels higher, I could drive through every string on every note. I have seen classical guitarists come close to this, of course, it is harder on double strings. Alas, I may not get there! But never say never. dt __________ From: William Samson To: David Tayler ; lute Sent: Thu, April 26, 2012 9:46:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Thanks David, That's very helpful and a systematic analysis. The approach I've used for most of my lutes is to use the string spacing of an old 9c lute (label Matteus Vogt) as a starting point. It belonged to the Lute Society at one time. I took a rubbing of the strings (as did a few other UK makers) and measuring it just now, it pretty much fits the criteria you specify regarding the spacing at bridge and nut. In fact comparing it with the spacings I now have for many other old lutes, it's pretty much average. The point about hitting the two strings together is, of course, important. I had lessons from Diana Poulton (thumb out, close to bridge) and Michael Schaeffer (thumb inside, close to rose) who were both very particular about that issue and the tone production that resulted. Both said that the finger should be planted on the strings so you could feel them both, before plucking. There were, of course, at that time many very eminient lutenists still using nail, and one told me that he was happy to hit one of the strings and the other would vibrate in sympathy! Your other point about the second course lying under the knuckle of the first lh finger is one I haven't come across before - I'll check my lutes and see how they measure up against that one. As far as the nut is concerned, I agree that unless you have a spacing that works for you, some experimentation is needed. I wonder if you ever came across any of Jacob van der Geest's lutes? He made lots of very narrow (0.5mm?), shallow grooves side by side right across the nut and the player could place the strings to suit him/herself. I'm not sure how successful it was, but his instruments were certainly much revered at one time. Anyway - Plenty to think about there. Thanks again! Bill From: David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 26 April 2012, 2:01 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Take a small, thin piece of wood 5mm, 5.2mm and so on Place it carefully between the paired strings, right at the bridge, careful not to scratch the soundboard or damage your strings (you can smooth the wood if you use gut. Increase the 2nd and 3rd course width until you can hit two strings clearly and cleanly. Then measure, then adjust. Start with 5.2mm If your nut spacing is too close, you can make a very, very thin mark with a file Then move one string out wider at the nut.
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
If you follow the link and use HD plus the pause button in full screen you can see close ups of striking two strings. However, it is better to be shown how to do it by a real person :) You can see in the video that one string (the "near" string) goes under the other one, and both strings are plucked with a slight curved stroke. Also you can see that my fingers are well below the strings. Now I'm not saying that is the right way to do it, and, indeed, I use four or five hand positions, thumb over, thumb centre, etc, etc. Each has its own challenges, It is just one way to do it. And, really, I could not do it without the right spacing. It would be nearly impossible. So for me, what makes a good lute: setup. I can play an average or even below average lute and get a pretty good sound with the right spacing. I this case, I use "thumb in: egg" The other variant is "thumb in: squid" where the fingers are more extended. That is, the thumb is inside the hand, mostly, and the hand is shaped as if it could hold an egg. In fact, I could lay one! Most importantly, the wrist is very loose. The wrist is a biggie as far as tone goes. The video was made with a follow focus tracking so you can see everything mostly in focus. [1]http://youtu.be/soTjO9WlsAs?hd=1&t=2m16s __ From: William Samson To: David Tayler Cc: Lute List Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:32:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to a source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Simple geometry. It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it out. No different from buying clothes. dt At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all the luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the right size for a particular player. If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how will they determine that without having a selection of instruments to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David Van Edwards so amusingly pointed out! I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments actually helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. Bill From: David Tayler <[4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, 9 April 2012, 22:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they either keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on my experience that the player will have to go through a very long retraining period after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal backwards? Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and spacing. Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers, the size of the hand (and fingers) and the rules which govern the span and spacing of strings. Without these two numbers in balance, it is impossible, or very difficult to make a good sound. When these numbers are in balance, it is easy to make a good sound; in fact, it is difficult to make a bad sound. No one would wear size 4 or size 11 shoes if they are a size 9, and yet, that is precisely what happens. Sadly
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an urtext thirty years ago :) I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the fuzzier it gets. So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is just speculation. As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things. First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second, in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol? Good thing they didn't get repo'd! And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque period--the John and Matthew passions. Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy. And I missing something, and maybe someone here can help me, but the page marked "unplayable" in the article, doesn't this work fine on the archlute? Of all the arguments, playability certainly is intriguing. dt __ From: "Braig, Eugene" To: lute Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:31:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as "Bach's works for lute" doesn't have any linear provenance to actually connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute. That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately "lute" as the alleged lute works. Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who knows with what music? While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, 6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime. (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.) As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented instruments. If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable. Eugene -Original Message----- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ. The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin, viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. __ From: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Luca Manassero <[4]l...@manassero.net>; "[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) Bill From: Luca Manassero <[1][7]l...@manassero.net> To: [2][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted An interesting post: [1][1][3][9]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suit es- t
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
Take a small, thin piece of wood 5mm, 5.2mm and so on Place it carefully between the paired strings, right at the bridge, careful not to scratch the soundboard or damage your strings (you can smooth the wood if you use gut. Increase the 2nd and 3rd course width until you can hit two strings clearly and cleanly. Then measure, then adjust. Start with 5.2mm If your nut spacing is too close, you can make a very, very thin mark with a file Then move one string out wider at the nut. You will quickly find the best ratio with no math needed :) Just don't make it too wide, or the total span will be too wide. If you have very small hands, you may have to go with "roughly parallel" where the spacing is narrow at the bridge and a bit wider at the nut. But I dodn't advise this as it does not always work. Gottlieb's lutes are sometimes set up perfect in "narrow, roughly parallel" And they are really nice lutes, very interesting sound. When I was 17, I guess this would be 1972, I just could not stand this buzz. So I took a chopstick, and made tiny spacers for the nut. I made a nut, then sawed it into slices. Each slice was a pair of strings, and I moved the pieces around till I figured it out. Buzz free since then. However, the thin lines is easier. You can make a practice nut if you do not want to mess up the one you have. Incidentally, course two MUST and I mean MUST lie under the knuckle, or you will never make a good bar chord sound. That's another story Basically, with the right stroke, and the right setup, the lute is easy to play, because it was an instrument that everyone played. However, if you have not learned to strike two strings dead on, you may have some difficulty. Most people do not have the right stroke because the spacing is wrong. Then someone like Ron McFarlane can show you, or a few other people, to hit two strings. 'That's where the pedagogical skill comes in. It takes ten minutes, plain and simple, to show someone. Maybe someone could do it in five. I made a lute video recently with a macro cam that shows the stroke I use, but you are free to find your own, and everyone's hand is different. There is no "right" way to play. But the buzzing, the splats, it is too much--I find it unacceptable. Sure you can edit them all out in a recording--and that is exactly what happens. But what is the point? Your choice, ten years or ten minutes! Personally, if I had a lute that was not set up right, I would sell it. Too much aggravation. But some people don't mind, and the vast majority of people think their lute is "just right", so that is really OK, as well. dt ______ From: William Samson To: David Tayler Cc: Lute List Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:32:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to a source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Simple geometry. It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it out. No different from buying clothes. dt At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all the luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the right size for a particular player. If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how will they determine that without having a selection of instruments to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David Van Edwards so amusingly pointed out! I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments actually helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. Bill
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Since I'm a hippie and believe all music should be free, some good must come from this. However, since I run a group and believe people should be paid, why don't you set up a PayPal donation event and I will be happy to chip in. And I imagine others would as well. I have often paid for mss to be scanned at libraries, knowing full well that others would benefit from these mss being "bumped" to the head of the inevitable line, to quote Dr. Blow. All mss will be scanned, of course. Only when? I just wish it had all been sooner before I ruined my eyes in the microfilm booth. However, I think it would be nice to share the cost. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ. The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin, viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. __ From: William Samson To: Luca Manassero ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) Bill From: Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net> To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted An interesting post: [1][1][3]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites- thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. [2][4]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 2. [7]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ 3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:l...@manassero.net 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi 4. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 7. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myth-is-busted-part-i/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
yup! __ From: JarosAA'aw Lipski To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, April 15, 2012 9:24:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? lute makers probably should check a palm size before deciding on fingerboard and other things, like on this movie (have a look at around 12,20 min) [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV3ODfFcgE Obviously not very often we live close to our lute maker. Pitty JL To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV3ODfFcgE 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
Not sure I understand your question, but not all chords are playable by everyone on all lutes. However, most chords can be played on most lutes. If I had small hands, I could go to a smaller theorbo, or avoid certain chords, but it isn't really an issue for me. OTOH, if I had very large hands, lets say 50 percent larger, I could play a 90/180cm no problem and it would "seem" as if I were playing a 60 cm lute. Similarly, a modest 33 percent difference would yield an effective play ratio from 80 to 60. My teacher could easily stop two double courses with the tip of the index finger; I cannot. And there is that one E major chord that I can't play on most lutes. But on my mandolin, it is a piece of cake. So then if there were chords that you could not play on a 60 cm lute, that would equate to 33+ person on the 80cm, disregarding for the moment the distinct advantage of a single strung theorbo. One can also calculate the effective span of the instrument according to spacing. So for example, certain chords become playable when you narrow the spacing. In practice, I don't notice any "gosh I can't reach those chords" moments until I go above 85cm. But if I had smaller hands, that number would of course be significantly different; larger hands, and I would wonder what people were talking about. It would not register. Another way to look at it is that try as I might, I cannot palm a basketball. All I can do is dribble. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson To: lute ; David Tayler Sent: Sun, April 15, 2012 12:49:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? Thank you David, But the point being made was that it may well not be that '90 percent that are still set up wrong' as you assert but that the player's posture is wrong (eg holding cradled in the lap and/or too close to horizontal) and/or the plucking position is inappropriate. If these defects, of the player not the instrument, are attended to you may not find that such a large proportion of large instruments are 'set up wrong'. Regarding your observation about Lynda Sayce's playing: ' As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord.'' , what precisely is meant by 'play every chord' . Are you suggesting that all nominal G lute chords should be playable on a theorbo? Martyn --- On Sat, 14/4/12, David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? To: "lute" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Saturday, 14 April, 2012, 22:11 Absolutely agree that technique is important! But those 90 percent that are still set up wrong, ouch! all those missed notes, so unnecessary. On a double strung instrument, it is a cart-horse scenario. You cannot develop technique unless the spacing is correct, just like you can't dance in the wrong trousers. Pedaling the cart and horse backwards. Main reason people don't make a good sound: wrong setup. So, you may say, I don't want to replace my lute or drill out the bridge--fair enough! Try one of mine first. You will be convinced in five minutes and also reap the health benefits of a stay in California. The spacing at the rose to which you refer is part of the equation. Three points determine the string lines: bridge, nut, plucking point (string thickness as well, if you don't measure from the edges). I'm now doing some super-macro videos that show how the strings vibrate in tandem when spaced correctly. It is very interesting! As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord. And if one didn't have large hands, one could change the spacing to play everything as well--no double strings on the modern theorbo to go twang in the night. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: [2][5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net Cc: Lute Dmth <[3][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; [4][7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 1:46:06 AM Subject: Lute size and set-u
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
The important number is not the bridge or nut, but the spacing at the plucking point, which is derived from the string length, and the overall spacing plan, plus the thickness of the strings. Unless you go "close parallel", which is more common on early instruments, 5mm is going to wing up being just on the edge. BUT you can of course widen it at the other end. And there, it depends a lot on the circumference of your fourth finger of the left hand when stopping the string. That needs to feel "just right" to execute fast trills. dt __ From: Anthony Hart To: lute Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 2:51:18 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? whilst on the subject of lute set up, I have a question of the action of the bass courses of a 14c Liuto attiorbato. I have found several suggestions concerning the ideal height of the bass strings above the finger board. 1. The strings should be about 5mm at the lower nut. 2. The strings should be in the same plane as the stopped strings. From observation from drawings: 1. A drawing of the 1639 Sellas instrument (upon which my instrument is based)by Robert Lundberg the top nut appears to be slightly lower than the line of the finger board. Also the upper nut appears to have a slight curve, as with a violin bridge, making the lowest course slightly lower than the preceding ones. 2. A drawing of the Railich instrument shows the line of the bass courses higher than the stopped ones. These observations are based on the thumbnail views from the appropriate websites so exact measurements not possible. Any other ideas? Many thanks Anthony >David, >Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things like string spacing are relevant to the ease of playing. But if a player struggles >with a particular size and/or specification of lute, before jumping to >erroneous conclusions it's important to see if the player's posture and >hand position/technique are not the real culprits. >Regarding the 'wrong' size instrument: a player may seem to struggle with a larger instrument than that they are used to simply because they >are holding it an unsuitable/inappropriate manner - rather that their arms/hands are intrinsically incapable of the stretch required. For example, if a player holds a large lute instrument as a modern 'classical' guitar (ie cradled low down in the lap and at a relatively >low angle to the ground) they may find left arm stretch difficulties which can readily be overcome by adopting a posture with the instrument >resting on the right thigh (as often seen in early representations). This can result in the instrument now being held some 10/15cm to the player's right and bringing the nut a similar distance closer to the left hand and so stretches which had previously seemed difficult may be >more readily achieved. Holding a large instrument in a more upright position also helps since it better fits with the >arm/body geometry and increases the effective stretch of the left arm. >The end result of all this is to give up to 15cm extra left arm stretch >and thus increasing the effective left arm stretch from, say, 76cm string length to around 90cm. >Similarly, if a player is playing well up to the rose rather than close >to the bridge, the natural tapering of string separation from bridge to >nut will result in a small, but noticeable, reduction in string separation at the actual plucking point which is not the fault of the string spacing at the bridge but of the player's own technique. Finally, specifically with regard to the theorbo, as Lynda Sayce points out ([1][1]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm), if a theorbo player is trying to employ ordinary lute fingered chords, rather than those appropriate to the theorbo, they may also struggle. In short, before blaming an instrument's size and specification the player should look to themselves first and ensure the problem isn't with their own posture and technique. >Martyn >--- On Mon, 9/4/12, David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > From: David Tayler <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? > To: "lute" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Monday, 9 April, 2012, 22:27 > Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the > wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change
[LUTE] Re: Miking a lute/theorbo
The dynamic range of digital exceeds the background noise in your room. For example, if your DR is 110 dB, and your background is 45 dB, you have only 65 dB range. A typical lute has DR of maybe 40 dB. Recording in 24 bits, each "bit" is worth 6dB. So when recording, set your levels high, but not at the very highest, becasue your end result will be 16 bit or less. USe that extra resolution to downsample and normalize at exactly the time of output for the best result. Use 48 kH, not 44.1: CDs are dead and 48 sounds better. Consider AAC 24 bit/48kHz for output--best kept secret in audio. Most people not only throw away the bits, they use a cheapo encoder that chops off all the high frequencies, even though free or inexpensive ones are available and need only to be set up once. dt __ From: Ed Durbrow To: Anthony Hind ; LuteNet list Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 3:48:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Miking a lute/theorbo On Apr 11, 2012, at 6:00 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: > Ed > Do I understand that you record in mono? I have often found that mono recordings are more relaxing than stereo, and analog more relaxing than digital; so mono analog is sometimes the easiest to listen to. It is as though the brain has lesswork to do recreating the sound image (trying to make the two sound images coincide). Although you no longer have indications of instrument position. No, I record in stereo if it is solo. Sometimes I record the lute in mono if there is a voice or other instrument because I have just one very expensive Neumann mic and I like to use it on the lute if I can. What I was saying is that if you record in a coincident pattern, there will be NO problems with phasing in mono playback. I don't know who listens in mono anymore, but it could happen. My main reason for using a coincident pattern though is that I can get a consistent sound on different days and even in different locations. I'm essentially lazy. > It used to be true that mono tape had far more dynamic space than stereo (mono analog with Nagra whole track, instead of stereo halftrack; although I suppose with two Nagras synchronized for stereo, you would have the same dynamic space); but is this still applicable with the newest digital recording medium with various "lossless" compressing algorythms? No, I'm pretty sure the dynamic range is the same for mono or stereo in the digital domain. You choose the bit rate, after all. Personally, I feel the recording capabilities today far exceed the playback systems most people listen on. If I record at 24 bits 48k or 44.1k (some record at double or quadruple that sample rate) with nice mics, the advantages are more in the manipulation/effect/processing domain than in the playback medium. That is: GIGO. Put yet another way, start with lots of headroom and high quality and by the time it is reduced down to AAC or mp3 for a YouTube video and played on computer speakers, there still should be some discernible difference from a recording made with a PCM/mp3 recorder using its built in mics and recording in mp3 rather than wave format. > > De : Ed Durbrow <[1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> > A : LuteNet list <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Envoye le : Mercredi 11 avril 2012 2h22 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Miking a lute/theorbo > > Brad, > I favor a coincident pair because there are no phase problems in mono, but even more so because it is easy to recreate. I don't have a problem with close miking (30-40cm). It is a matter of placement and mic quality, though. Every environment and instrument is different. It is probably safe to say that many engineers don't have a lot of experience with lutes and don't know the sound to go for. S/He might be able to fix the sound quite a bit after the fact, with your guidance. Maybe the two mics are out of phase. That will give a tinny sound. At any rate, s/he might be able to eq it to improve it. > > >> On the weekend I recorded two pieces in a professional recording >> studio. I was accompanying a singer on the theorbo. The recording >> engineer aimed two mikes quite close to the body of the theorbo. >> >> >> On the recording, the sound of the theorbo is very tinny and distorted, >> and bears almost no similarity to the natural/ acoustic sound of the >> instrument. >> >> >> Has anybody had experience with miking a lute or theorbo for recording? >> >> What mike placement gave you the best results so far as concerned >> fidelity to the natural sound of the instrument? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Brad >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/in
[LUTE] Re: Pitch names and lute tunings.
The lute--and renaissance music--uses a transposing system.. Core tones of A and G are common, but neither is "the" pitch. Even the keyboard uses a transposing system, renaissance diagrams frequently "name" what we call middle C by other names. Most modern musicians, except for clarinet, trumpet and so on, are trained in fixed pitch. Even forty years ago, the two systems existed side by side: my teacher was trained in "moveable Do" and so was I until graduate school. Moveable Do is necessary to understand renaissance theory, "mutation" (the renaming of the hexachord syllables to modulate) and sight-singing. __ From: William Samson To: Lute List Sent: Sat, April 14, 2012 2:05:38 AM Subject: [LUTE] Pitch names and lute tunings. Dear Collective Wisdom, I was wondering when pitch names began to be associated with the strings on a lute. Nowadays the 'standard' renaissance lute is considered to be in G tuning, with the top string at g. Published books of lute songs seem, by and large to agree with this, with the vocal part(s) in staff notation agreeing with a lute accompaniment on a G-lute. So was 'g' defined as the pitch at which your top string is about to break? I would guess that with the theorbo (an instrument of which I know very little) the theorbo had to agree with the other instruments in the ensemble and conform to whatever pitch standard was in use at the time - though if the theorbist is playing from a bass line (rather than tablature) it's up to him/her to conform with the pitches of the other instruments, regardless of how the theorbo is tuned. It all seems very confusing - Is there a clear association between pitch names and lute tunings? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
Absolutely agree that technique is important! But those 90 percent that are still set up wrong, ouch! all those missed notes, so unnecessary. On a double strung instrument, it is a cart-horse scenario. You cannot develop technique unless the spacing is correct, just like you can't dance in the wrong trousers. Pedaling the cart and horse backwards. Main reason people don't make a good sound: wrong setup. So, you may say, I don't want to replace my lute or drill out the bridge--fair enough! Try one of mine first. You will be convinced in five minutes and also reap the health benefits of a stay in California. The spacing at the rose to which you refer is part of the equation. Three points determine the string lines: bridge, nut, plucking point (string thickness as well, if you don't measure from the edges). I'm now doing some super-macro videos that show how the strings vibrate in tandem when spaced correctly. It is very interesting! As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord. And if one didn't have large hands, one could change the spacing to play everything as well--no double strings on the modern theorbo to go twang in the night. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson To: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Cc: Lute Dmth ; willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 1:46:06 AM Subject: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? David, Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things like string spacing are relevant to the ease of playing. But if a player struggles with a particular size and/or specification of lute, before jumping to erroneous conclusions it's important to see if the player's posture and hand position/technique are not the real culprits. Regarding the 'wrong' size instrument: a player may seem to struggle with a larger instrument than that they are used to simply because they are holding it an unsuitable/inappropriate manner - rather that their arms/hands are intrinsically incapable of the stretch required. For example, if a player holds a large lute instrument as a modern 'classical' guitar (ie cradled low down in the lap and at a relatively low angle to the ground) they may find left arm stretch difficulties which can readily be overcome by adopting a posture with the instrument resting on the right thigh (as often seen in early representations). This can result in the instrument now being held some 10/15cm to the player's right and bringing the nut a similar distance closer to the left hand and so stretches which had previously seemed difficult may be more readily achieved. Holding a large instrument in a more upright position also helps since it better fits with the arm/body geometry and increases the effective stretch of the left arm. The end result of all this is to give up to 15cm extra left arm stretch and thus increasing the effective left arm stretch from, say, 76cm string length to around 90cm. Similarly, if a player is playing well up to the rose rather than close to the bridge, the natural tapering of string separation from bridge to nut will result in a small, but noticeable, reduction in string separation at the actual plucking point which is not the fault of the string spacing at the bridge but of the player's own technique. Finally, specifically with regard to the theorbo, as Lynda Sayce points out ([1]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm), if a theorbo player is trying to employ ordinary lute fingered chords, rather than those appropriate to the theorbo, they may also struggle. In short, before blaming an instrument's size and specification the player should look to themselves first and ensure the problem isn't with their own posture and technique. Martyn --- On Mon, 9/4/12, David Tayler wrote: From: David Tayler Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? To: "lute" Date: Monday, 9 April, 2012, 22:27 Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they either keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on my experience that the player will have to go through a very long retraining period after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal backwards? Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and spacing. Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles tw
[LUTE] Re: All about micing...part II
I think that is a lovely group!--the lute is behind the front of the wave, so the mics will pick up less of the lute. The organ is placed at the front of the wave. __ From: hera caius To: lute net Sent: Tue, April 10, 2012 4:26:38 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: All about micing...part II All instruments very authentic copies. Gamba and violin on gut, historical bows, baroque flute traversierre, 14 course theorbo in A on nylgut and copper and organo di legno (wood organ) One example: [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDoomhnUOU&list=UUFoONkd8wBnm1emu E8y bClQ&index0&feature=plcp (recording was made in 2010) (the quality of the recording is not the best) --- On Tue, 4/10/12, David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: David Tayler <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Subject: [LUTE] Re: All about micing...part II To: "lute" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 12:58 AM If you use all original instruments, you will hear the lute fine. However, if you have thin bridges, heavy bows, thick bass bars, metal strings etc on the bowed strings then they will be easily twice as loud. And so all of the soft instruments will disappear. __ From: Mathias Roesel <[2][5]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> To: lute net <[3][6]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, April 9, 2012 5:50:11 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: All about micing...part II >there and the music was generally very interesting but I hear your >theorbo only on the solo piece..." (a Kapsberger)...Na... There's nothing wrong with an audible theorbo in an ensemble, probably, but the thing is, pluckers cannot hold their tones like singers, viols, flutes or organs do. So what should be heard are the impulses of each chord or note that you play. Profiling the rhythmic structure of an ensemble piece is a major task of the theorbo, I suppose. And if you're not content with that, there's another way to become audible. You can break the chords. Not in the way of quick arpeggios, but in regular rhythm. You can try to go in consonant intervals alongside the leading part in prominent passages. To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDoomhnUOU&list=UUFoONkd8wBnm1emuE8y bClQ&index0&feature=plcp 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[10]mathias.roe...@t-online.de 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[11]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDoomhnUOU&list=UUFoONkd8wBnm1emuE8y 2. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 3. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 6. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDoomhnUOU&list=UUFoONkd8wBnm1emuE8ybClQ&index0&feature=plcp 10. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 11. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All about micing...part II
If you use all original instruments, you will hear the lute fine. However, if you have thin bridges, heavy bows, thick bass bars, metal strings etc on the bowed strings then they will be easily twice as loud. And so all of the soft instruments will disappear. __ From: Mathias Roesel To: lute net Sent: Mon, April 9, 2012 5:50:11 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: All about micing...part II >there and the music was generally very interesting but I hear your >theorbo only on the solo piece..." (a Kapsberger)...Na... There's nothing wrong with an audible theorbo in an ensemble, probably, but the thing is, pluckers cannot hold their tones like singers, viols, flutes or organs do. So what should be heard are the impulses of each chord or note that you play. Profiling the rhythmic structure of an ensemble piece is a major task of the theorbo, I suppose. And if you're not content with that, there's another way to become audible. You can break the chords. Not in the way of quick arpeggios, but in regular rhythm. You can try to go in consonant intervals alongside the leading part in prominent passages. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html