[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
On Dec 20, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: >> This would make sense only if there were a single >> 20th-century aesthetic preference. > > Who is to say there is not? Those alive during a historical period are too > sensitive to the trees of plurality to discern the forest of ideology > motivating seemingly disparate activities. If you really want to argue that a single 20th-century aesthetic encompassed The Descendants doing "Everything Sucks" and the Berlin Philharmonic doing Mahler, nobody will stop you, but I don't think anyone will be convinced. >> The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic >> preferences to past music" is that the 20th century >> preferred past music. Audiences turned out for music >> of the 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new >> stuff. That had never happened before. > > Hardly. Audiences turn out in droves for new popular music: "product" > intended to be enjoyed for a while before being discarded in favor of the > next hit. It may come as a shock to us on the list, but very few people in > the general population pay attention to classical music at all. I suppose I was being imprecise, although you appear to have correctly understood that I was talking about classical music. I don't think the lack of attention to it in the general population will shock anyone. > Consider how many early music performers today improvise in concert. All the competent ones, if you mean ornamenting and playing continuo. If you mean getting in front of an audience and making it up from scratch or asking the audience to suggest a theme for improvisation, I imagine it's pretty rare, which is not surprising. Listeners who paid to hear Mozart in 1785 were paying to hear Mozart improvise as part of the experience. Listeners paying to hear Mozart two centuries later were not. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
Besides that she made subtle and rich music which may not have been noted by a passer-by, with a wide range of musicians over time. Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 20.12.2013, às 18:40, "Monica Hall" escreveu: Emma Kirkby sings the way she does because she was a product of the English Cathedral choral tradition and does or did emmulate the sound that English choirboys make and are assumed to have made in the past. Whether this is the case is hard to tell but I have heard recordings of the Sistine Chapel Choir and the Choir of Westminster Cathedral made at the beginning of the 20th century and the tone that the boys made was not unlike that of English choirboys today. I don't see where Joan Baez comes into it myself. - Original Message - From: "howard posner" To: Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 6:54 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I > On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: > >> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis >> that early music performance practice today is really a modern >> fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic >> preferences to past music. > > This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic > preference. > > Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a sea of > abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. > For example, he famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine > around 1983, if not in Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging > all the way through) that Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do > with Joan Baez as with being historically informed, an odd notion in my view, > since I always found Baez' vibrato too intense for my taste. But even > assuming Taruskin chose a good example, why did Kirkby emulate Baez, rather > than some other singer who was popular in the sixties and early seventies? > She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Rod McKuen, > Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you love to hear Jagger and > Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, Merle Haggard, Birgit > Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current aesthetic prefere! nc! > es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm > inclined to go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than > raising them: people in early are doing what they think they're doing. > > The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past music" > is that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for > music of the 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had > never happened before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in > particular, became museums preserving music of previous generations, and the > logical and inevitable outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the > curators wanted to do it "right," just like the curators who cleaned the old > cloudy varnish off the Rembrandt painting called the "Night Watch" and > discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. > >> Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, >> metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music >> nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized >> industrialization, assembly lines, > > Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories > > Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore there > must be some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination > causes [insert your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires > a mechanism. > > In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have coexisted > for nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World > War I development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing > classical music -- some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart > differently from the way they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down > much to the less exalted professional ranks. > >> and the repeatable, homogenized >> regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. > > I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about digital recording, or > something else? > >> It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of >> Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation >> today, but one might be able to argue that, bei
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
Yes, I always enjoy responding to his sophistries and redirections. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Fri, 12/20/13, Sterling wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I To: "Mathias Rösel" Cc: "" Date: Friday, December 20, 2013, 5:41 PM I also always enjoy Howard's posts and logic. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Dec 20, 2013, at 3:11 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: >> Dear Howard, >> I must confess, that the logic of Your Arguments is always a very great > pleasure, a >> light in the darkness of December. >> Thank You >> Andreas (Berlin) > > Wholeheartedly seconded > > Mathias > > > >> Am 20.12.2013 19:54, schrieb howard posner: >>> On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke > wrote: >>> >>>> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis >>>> that early music performance practice today is really a modern >>>> fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic >>>> preferences to past music. >>> This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic >> preference. >>> >>> Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a > sea of >> abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. > For example, he >> famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if > not in >> Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through) > that >> Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with > being >> historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found > Baez' vibrato too >> intense for my taste. But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example, > why did >> Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the > sixties >> and early seventies? She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, > Frank >> Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you > love to >> hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, > Merle >> Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current > aesthetic >> prefere! >> nc! >>> es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm > inclined to >> go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising > them: >> people in early are doing what they think they're doing. >>> >>> The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past > music" is >> that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for > music of the >> 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had never > happened >> before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became >> museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and > inevitable >> outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it > "right," >> just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the > Rembrandt painting >> called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. >>> >>>> Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, >>>> metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early > music >>>> nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized >>>> industrialization, assembly lines, >>> Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories >>> >>> Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore > there must be >> some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes > [insert >> your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires a > mechanism. >>> >>> In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have > coexisted for >> nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World > War I >> development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical > music -- >> some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from > the way >> they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less > exa
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
Howard, On Fri, 12/20/13, howard posner wrote: On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: >> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis >> that early music performance practice today is really a modern >> fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic >> preferences to past music. > This would make sense only if there were a single > 20th-century aesthetic preference. Who is to say there is not? Those alive during a historical period are too sensitive to the trees of plurality to discern the forest of ideology motivating seemingly disparate activities. (I assume most of us on this list are holdovers born in the 20th century. If there are any lutenists age 13 or younger on this list, please feel free to let us know your assessment of the degree of aesthetic cohesion exemplified in artistic movements of the last century. Probably, "Uh, you mean that old stuff? Like, I dunno. Don't care.") > The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic > preferences to past music" is that the 20th century > preferred past music. Audiences turned out for music > of the 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new > stuff. That had never happened before. Hardly. Audiences turn out in droves for new popular music: "product" intended to be enjoyed for a while before being discarded in favor of the next hit. It may come as a shock to us on the list, but very few people in the general population pay attention to classical music at all. We're the oddballs and I'm afraid Beyonce has us lute players beaten by a large margin in terms of broader musical relevance in the present. > Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories Yes. In music, they are called "conservatories." >> and the repeatable, homogenized >> regularity of product made possible by the use of >> computers. > I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about > digital recording, or something else? Well, no, I wasn't speaking of digital recording specifically, but that is a new development of the 20th century. While the invention of aural recording and the resultant commodification of the resultant mass-produced product, has certainly had an influence on the way music was performed in the 20th/21st centuries, that is really a much larger topic. I was rather referring to the psychological mindset incurred when one is able to press a button and have 100 identical pages print versus the old school method of one having to manually press 100 similar, yet slightly distinct pages, or the even older method of writing out 100 pages by hand. We expect the characteristics of like objects to be extremely consistent, if not exact. (See the above remark about conservatory training.) There is every reason to believe that earlier generations neither expected or desired total consistency. Indeed, improvisation and ornamentation WERE the expected tools of all professional musicians. Listeners knew that every hearing of a piece would be unique. We, however, expect our MP3s to sound exactly the same on each playing. Our HIP performers are more influenced by the latter than the former. Consider how many early music performers today improvise in concert. Sure, there are some who can do it, but today, despite the fact that we know of its past importance, it is not at all an obligatory skill for HIP musicians. Improvisation means that occasionally you'll have too many notes in a run or find yourself with the next note of that repeated figure just out of reach, or even - oh, the horror! - play a wrong note. Can't have that. Not consistent. A reviewer, still stinging from the backlash resulting from a negative Segovia review, would relish the opportunity to expostulate that sort of informed, yet anachronistic (for 20th century aesthetics) performance. >> It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of >> Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation >> today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects >> of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the >> spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. > True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier > times was "I play the way I play because I like to play that > way; I play the best way I can based on my own inclinations > and the way I was taught to play." You say, "true is a very limited way," which I already noted in saying, "it would be too much of a stretch" to use Segovia et al as a model. Still, I think there are aspects of that approach that are worthy of re-evaluation and possible adoption. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
I also always enjoy Howard's posts and logic. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Dec 20, 2013, at 3:11 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: >> Dear Howard, >> I must confess, that the logic of Your Arguments is always a very great > pleasure, a >> light in the darkness of December. >> Thank You >> Andreas (Berlin) > > Wholeheartedly seconded > > Mathias > > > >> Am 20.12.2013 19:54, schrieb howard posner: >>> On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke > wrote: >>> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. >>> This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic >> preference. >>> >>> Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a > sea of >> abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. > For example, he >> famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if > not in >> Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through) > that >> Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with > being >> historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found > Baez' vibrato too >> intense for my taste. But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example, > why did >> Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the > sixties >> and early seventies? She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, > Frank >> Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you > love to >> hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, > Merle >> Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current > aesthetic >> prefere! >> nc! >>> es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm > inclined to >> go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising > them: >> people in early are doing what they think they're doing. >>> >>> The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past > music" is >> that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for > music of the >> 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had never > happened >> before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became >> museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and > inevitable >> outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it > "right," >> just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the > Rembrandt painting >> called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. >>> Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early > music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, >>> Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories >>> >>> Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore > there must be >> some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes > [insert >> your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires a > mechanism. >>> >>> In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have > coexisted for >> nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World > War I >> development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical > music -- >> some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from > the way >> they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less > exalted >> professional ranks. >>> and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. >>> I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about digital > recording, or something >> else? >>> It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some > aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. >>> True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier times was > "I play the way I >> play because I like to play that way; I play the best way I can based on > my own >> inclinations and the way I was taught to play." That's essentially the > way nearly >> everyone did it until the early music movement built momentum, and it > works very >> well until you start playing something outside the current style, such as > -- oh, I don't >> know -- Mozart or Bach. Or Dowland. Or Beethoven. >>> >>> The notion of fidelity to Beethoven's intent, let alone Albeniz', did > not occur t
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
> Dear Howard, > I must confess, that the logic of Your Arguments is always a very great pleasure, a > light in the darkness of December. > Thank You > Andreas (Berlin) Wholeheartedly seconded Mathias > Am 20.12.2013 19:54, schrieb howard posner: > > On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: > > > >> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis > >>that early music performance practice today is really a modern > >>fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic > >>preferences to past music. > > This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic > preference. > > > > Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a sea of > abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. For example, he > famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if not in > Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through) that > Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with being > historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found Baez' vibrato too > intense for my taste. But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example, why did > Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the sixties > and early seventies? She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, Frank > Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you love to > hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, Merle > Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current aesthetic > prefere! > nc! > > es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm inclined to > go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising them: > people in early are doing what they think they're doing. > > > > The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past music" is > that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for music of the > 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had never happened > before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became > museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and inevitable > outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it "right," > just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the Rembrandt painting > called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. > > > >>Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, > >>metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music > >>nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized > >>industrialization, assembly lines, > > Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories > > > > Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore there must be > some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes [insert > your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires a mechanism. > > > > In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have coexisted for > nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World War I > development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical music -- > some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from the way > they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less exalted > professional ranks. > > > >> and the repeatable, homogenized > >> regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. > > I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about digital recording, or something > else? > > > >>It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of > >>Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation > >>today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects > >>of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the > >>spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. > > True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier times was "I play the way I > play because I like to play that way; I play the best way I can based on my own > inclinations and the way I was taught to play." That's essentially the way nearly > everyone did it until the early music movement built momentum, and it works very > well until you start playing something outside the current style, such as -- oh, I don't > know -- Mozart or Bach. Or Dowland. Or Beethoven. > > > > The notion of fidelity to Beethoven's intent, let alone Albeniz', did not occur to most > musicians of Segovia's generation. Toscanini, who was older than Segovia and > active the first half of the 20th century, was known for being faithful to "the score" > precisely because it made him unusual. Critics, biographers and the musicians
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
Emma Kirkby sings the way she does because she was a product of the English Cathedral choral tradition and does or did emmulate the sound that English choirboys make and are assumed to have made in the past. Whether this is the case is hard to tell but I have heard recordings of the Sistine Chapel Choir and the Choir of Westminster Cathedral made at the beginning of the 20th century and the tone that the boys made was not unlike that of English choirboys today. I don't see where Joan Baez comes into it myself. - Original Message - From: "howard posner" To: Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 6:54 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic preference. Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a sea of abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. For example, he famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if not in Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through) that Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with being historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found Baez' vibrato too intense for my taste. But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example, why did Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the sixties and early seventies? She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you love to hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, Merle Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current aesthetic preferenc! es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm inclined to go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising them: people in early are doing what they think they're doing. The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past music" is that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for music of the 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had never happened before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and inevitable outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it "right," just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the Rembrandt painting called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore there must be some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes [insert your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires a mechanism. In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have coexisted for nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World War I development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical music -- some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from the way they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less exalted professional ranks. and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about digital recording, or something else? It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier times was "I play the way I play because I like to play that way; I play the best way I can based on my own inclinations and the way I was taught to play." That's essentially the way nearly everyone did it until the early music movement built momentum, and it works very well until you start playing something outside the current style, such as --
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
Dear Howard, I must confess, that the logic of Your Arguments is always a very great pleasure, a light in the darkness of December. Thank You Andreas (Berlin) Am 20.12.2013 19:54, schrieb howard posner: On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic preference. Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a sea of abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. For example, he famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if not in Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through) that Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with being historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found Baez' vibrato too intense for my taste. But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example, why did Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the sixties and early seventies? She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you love to hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, Merle Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current aesthetic prefere! nc! es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm inclined to go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising them: people in early are doing what they think they're doing. The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past music" is that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for music of the 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had never happened before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and inevitable outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it "right," just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the Rembrandt painting called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore there must be some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes [insert your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires a mechanism. In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have coexisted for nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World War I development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical music -- some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from the way they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less exalted professional ranks. and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about digital recording, or something else? It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier times was "I play the way I play because I like to play that way; I play the best way I can based on my own inclinations and the way I was taught to play." That's essentially the way nearly everyone did it until the early music movement built momentum, and it works very well until you start playing something outside the current style, such as -- oh, I don't know -- Mozart or Bach. Or Dowland. Or Beethoven. The notion of fidelity to Beethoven's intent, let alone Albeniz', did not occur to most musicians of Segovia's generation. Toscanini, who was older than Segovia and active the first half of the 20th century, was known for being faithful to "the score" precisely because it made him unusual. Critics, biographers and the musicians who played under him went on and on about it. Landowska's comment about "you play Bach your way and I'll play it his way" was similarly famous because it was out of the mainstream. -- To get on or off this list see
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: > This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis > that early music performance practice today is really a modern > fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic > preferences to past music. This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic preference. Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a sea of abstract nouns. It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it. For example, he famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if not in Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through) that Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with being historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found Baez' vibrato too intense for my taste. But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example, why did Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the sixties and early seventies? She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you love to hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams, Merle Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current aesthetic preferenc! es. Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"? I'm inclined to go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising them: people in early are doing what they think they're doing. The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past music" is that the 20th century preferred past music. Audiences turned out for music of the 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff. That had never happened before. Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and inevitable outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it "right," just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the Rembrandt painting called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all. > Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, > metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music > nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized > industrialization, assembly lines, Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore there must be some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes [insert your favorite ailment here]" crowd. Cause and effect requires a mechanism. In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have coexisted for nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World War I development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical music -- some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from the way they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less exalted professional ranks. > and the repeatable, homogenized > regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about digital recording, or something else? > It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of > Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation > today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects > of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the > spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier times was "I play the way I play because I like to play that way; I play the best way I can based on my own inclinations and the way I was taught to play." That's essentially the way nearly everyone did it until the early music movement built momentum, and it works very well until you start playing something outside the current style, such as -- oh, I don't know -- Mozart or Bach. Or Dowland. Or Beethoven. The notion of fidelity to Beethoven's intent, let alone Albeniz', did not occur to most musicians of Segovia's generation. Toscanini, who was older than Segovia and active the first half of the 20th century, was known for being faithful to "the score" precisely because it made him unusual. Critics, biographers and the musicians who played under him went on and on about it. Landowska's comment about "you play Bach your way and I'll play it his way" was similarly famous because it was out of the mainstream. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
So what are we left with? Personal judgements on what is and what is not interesting music. Or good music, or correct music, or aurally thought music. Harnoncourt wrote it some 40 years ago: HIP is not about doing music as it was done centuries ago but about making lively music for today's listeners. Treatises and other documents help to avoid mistakes which render long-gone music dull, like playing Bach without accents. Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 19.12.2013, às 11:27, Christopher Wilke escreveu: This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
OUCH! On 12/19/13 11:25 AM, "Dan Winheld" wrote: > So your heart belongs to di Dadi (Cole Porter, 1938) > > On 12/19/2013 6:22 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: >> On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: >>> Richard Taruskin >> Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi" >> >> Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I >> attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of >> the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder >> players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each >> night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the >> hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of >> them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di >> Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the >> 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first >> people in centuries to experience it. >> >> Geoff >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
So your heart belongs to di Dadi (Cole Porter, 1938) On 12/19/2013 6:22 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi" Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
". . . quasi-orgasmic relish" is worthy of a tittering *tee-hee*. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Bruce Haines is a must read regarding this issue (romantic, modern and the Hip approach). 2013/12/19 Christopher Wilke <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [2]www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski <[3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1][4]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[6]dwinh...@lmi.net 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 3. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Well-said, indeed! Thank you, Chris, for your thoughtful posts. Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke [chriswi...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi" Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Good points and very well said, Chris. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I'm not qualified to decide what's "right" and what's not in any art. I said, "...from Segovia's point of view..." I'm going to try to refrain from responding any further so as not to raise the ire of the content police. Back to the lute when the numbness in my left hand subsides. Gary On 2013-12-18 14:20, Bruno Correia wrote: Which doesn't mean his decisions were right... 2013/12/18 gary I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Since this thread seems to be winding down, I just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to it for a stimulating, spirited and thought provoking conversation. Thank you. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Often the choice of a few of this or that is to stimulate the listener/ player to search out more. If those who hear it just assume those are the ones to be played and revering only those then we end up, in a sense, worshiping the finger that points the way. I know, it couldn't happen in guitar or lute music. Funny, I had never thought about what might else Respighi have written (yep, guilty of the above) but I recently heard some of his songs done up for guitar and soprano at a local recital. They were delightful and wonderfully played and I rather welcomed the change and imagination after the standard Dowland songs. Sean On Dec 18, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: Which doesn't mean his decisions were right... 2013/12/18 gary <[1]magg...@sonic.net> I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:magg...@sonic.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Wiadomość napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st >> century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of >> him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption > that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including > icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an > early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned > better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Which doesn't mean his decisions were right... 2013/12/18 gary <[1]magg...@sonic.net> I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:magg...@sonic.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st > century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of > him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. In Joel Cohen's Reprise (1985), a book about the early music revival that is quickly becoming a historical document in its own right, he tells of a young French tenor who encountered his former voice teacher at the Paris Conservatoire and told her that he just sang a Machaut mass in concert. She got upset and said, "How many times times must I tell you? There's no future in that crazy modern music!" -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
If you play enough Hagen, S.L W. starts to sound outdated. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Winheld Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 4:47 PM To: erne...@aquila.mus.br; Jarosław Lipski Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? No doubt Mel Neusidler found papa Hans outdated. Maybe Downland thought he was outdated. Nicolas Vallet thought they were all outdated. (Of course S.L. Weiss isn't outdated!) Kind of like a Revolutionary War re-enactor scorning the martial skills and accomplishments of General Eisenhower in WWII as- "outdated". Dan "The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute?" On 12/18/2013 9:22 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote: > > Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be > discussed here? > Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is > the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the > most extended lute repertoire... > I think Jimi Hendrix also has a lot to do with the lute - his characteristic > rythmic flamboyance is directly associated to the liberties taken in lute > performance, were musicians are free from dogmas imposed by some phonographic > industry product player. Or thus I understand it, in my very personal > interpretation of the lute. > And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? > And so it goes... > > Ernesto Ett > 11-99 242120 4 > 11-28376692 > > > > Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski escreveu: > > Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed > his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and > there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros > were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying > kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our > modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and > teaching evolved. > BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist > there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in > particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA > > Enjoy > > Jaroslaw > > > Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: > >> How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the >> tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during >> his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a >> factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault >> Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. >> I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was >> protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. >> >> Gary >> >> >> On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: >>> . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and >>> romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for >>> generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to >>> create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think >>> Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a >>> danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. >>> Respectfully, >>> Eugene > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? No doubt Mel Neusidler found papa Hans outdated. Maybe Downland thought he was outdated. Nicolas Vallet thought they were all outdated. (Of course S.L. Weiss isn't outdated!) Kind of like a Revolutionary War re-enactor scorning the martial skills and accomplishments of General Eisenhower in WWII as- "outdated". Dan "The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute?" On 12/18/2013 9:22 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote: Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire... I think Jimi Hendrix also has a lot to do with the lute - his characteristic rythmic flamboyance is directly associated to the liberties taken in lute performance, were musicians are free from dogmas imposed by some phonographic industry product player. Or thus I understand it, in my very personal interpretation of the lute. And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? And so it goes... Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
I'm not a guitarist, but I am a cellist. I do wonder what is meant here about both Segovia and Casals being unmusical, though perhaps this lute forum has wandered far enough afield already. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
In the latest ad from ArkivMusic i noticed advertised the Complete RCA Album Collection of Julian Bream. Cost is $99.99 and it includes 40 CDs and 2 DVDs, for anyone interested. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Obviously I meant kids "upbringing" ;-) JL Wiadomość napisana przez r.turov...@gmail.com w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 20:47: > One could argue that the municipal authorities bullied Rosenmüller, and > caused his flight to Italy (on account of his molestation of minors). > They should have resorted to physical punishment rather than bullying. > RT > > > > On 12/18/2013 2:24 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: >> It's scattered among several documents (letters etc). I don't have enough >> time to dig in all of them now, but if you are really interested I could >> send it to you in my spare time. >> Another thing is what could be called bullying at times of Bach. Probably >> many behaviors that we don't accept wouldn't be recognized as not >> appropriate then. For example physical punishment was often accepted in past. >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: >>> Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir >>> Really? Do you have a source for this? >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
One could argue that the municipal authorities bullied Rosenmüller, and caused his flight to Italy (on account of his molestation of minors). They should have resorted to physical punishment rather than bullying. RT On 12/18/2013 2:24 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: It's scattered among several documents (letters etc). I don't have enough time to dig in all of them now, but if you are really interested I could send it to you in my spare time. Another thing is what could be called bullying at times of Bach. Probably many behaviors that we don't accept wouldn't be recognized as not appropriate then. For example physical punishment was often accepted in past. On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir Really? Do you have a source for this? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Hi Roman, > Segovia was not incompetent, he was simply unmusical. He wasn't alone in > that, among the stars of his day. Pablo Casals also comes to mind, and not a > few violinists. > RT > > Hmmm… we enter a very subjective territory here. Someone called unmusical for one may seem epitome of musicality for another. Segovia is not in my liking either, but many people appreciate his romantic, singing tone quality which is very unique nowadays. Best Jaroslaw > > > On 12/18/2013 2:10 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: >> Hi, >> >>> The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at >>> least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, >>> sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, >> >> It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal >> taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under >> his videos). I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested >> Segovia's incompetence as a player. >> >>> and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even >>> think of. >>> Is it somehow related to the lute? >>> Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be >>> discussed here? >>> Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it >>> is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of >>> the most extended lute repertoire… >> No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says: " I just noticed we >> got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum" No, but seriously, people were >> discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this >> is my reply to that part of the thread. >> Sorry if you find any problem in it. >> And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael), but >> I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've >> seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised >> so much. >> >> Regards >> >> Jaroslaw >> >> >>> Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski escreveu: >>> >>> Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed >>> his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and >>> there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big >>> Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for >>> bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, >>> especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both >>> performance practice and teaching evolved. >>> BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is >>> a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA >>> >>> Enjoy >>> >>> Jaroslaw >>> >>> >>> Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: >>> How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: > . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and > romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations > because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of > repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed > for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the > tastes of one person shape the state of an art. > Respectfully, > Eugene >>> >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Segovia was not incompetent, he was simply unmusical. He wasn't alone in that, among the stars of his day. Pablo Casals also comes to mind, and not a few violinists. RT On 12/18/2013 2:10 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Hi, The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under his videos). I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested Segovia's incompetence as a player. and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire… No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says: " I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum" No, but seriously, people were discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this is my reply to that part of the thread. Sorry if you find any problem in it. And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael), but I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised so much. Regards Jaroslaw Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
It's scattered among several documents (letters etc). I don't have enough time to dig in all of them now, but if you are really interested I could send it to you in my spare time. Another thing is what could be called bullying at times of Bach. Probably many behaviors that we don't accept wouldn't be recognized as not appropriate then. For example physical punishment was often accepted in past. > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: > >> Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir > > Really? Do you have a source for this? > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Hi, > The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at > least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, > sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under his videos). I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested Segovia's incompetence as a player. > and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even > think of. > Is it somehow related to the lute? > Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be > discussed here? > Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is > the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the > most extended lute repertoire… No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says: " I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum" No, but seriously, people were discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this is my reply to that part of the thread. Sorry if you find any problem in it. And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael), but I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised so much. Regards Jaroslaw > > Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski escreveu: > > Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed > his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and > there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros > were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying > kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our > modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and > teaching evolved. > BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a > short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA > > Enjoy > > Jaroslaw > > > Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: > >> How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the >> tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during >> his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a >> factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault >> Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. >> I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was >> protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. >> >> Gary >> >> >> On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: >>> . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and >>> romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations >>> because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of >>> repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed >>> for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the >>> tastes of one person shape the state of an art. >>> Respectfully, >>> Eugene >> > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On 19 Dec, 2013, at 1:22 AM, "erne...@aquila.mus.br" wrote: > > And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? > And so it goes... i'd say the Arab lute is far more relevant to this list than Segovia is. τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: > I recall reading that he was fired from an early gig for improper relations > with one of the women in the choir. I don't doubt you read something of the sort, as there is a lot of rubbish written about Bach. He was reproved for a number of things when he was organist at Arnstadt, including getting into a sword fight with a bassoonist, and playing stuff that was too weird, too long or too short during services. Minutes of the Arnstadt Consistory note that in November 1706 they asked the 21-year-old Bach "by what right he recently caused the strange maiden to be invited into the choir loft and let her make music there." He was not fired. He requested his dismissal seven months later, after he had accepted a more lucrative job in Mühlhausen. The maiden was likely his cousin Maria Barbara Bach, whom he married the following year. History does not record whether she was really strange. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire... I think Jimi Hendrix also has a lot to do with the lute - his characteristic rythmic flamboyance is directly associated to the liberties taken in lute performance, were musicians are free from dogmas imposed by some phonographic industry product player. Or thus I understand it, in my very personal interpretation of the lute. And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? And so it goes... Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: > How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the > tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during > his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a > factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault > Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. > I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was > protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. > > Gary > > > On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: >> . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and >> romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations >> because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of >> repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed >> for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the >> tastes of one person shape the state of an art. >> Respectfully, >> Eugene > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 18/12/13 11:37 AM, howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: > Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir Really? Do you have a source for this? I recall reading that he was fired from an early gig for improper relations with one of the women in the choir. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote: > Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir Really? Do you have a source for this? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: > How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the > tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during > his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a > factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault > Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. > I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was > protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. > > Gary > > > On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: >> . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and >> romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations >> because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of >> repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed >> for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the >> tastes of one person shape the state of an art. >> Respectfully, >> Eugene > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Gary questions, "How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from 'shaping the tastes of an art'?" I really didn't frame my own argument very well. One doesn't and probably shouldn't even try excepting with regard to one's own tastes. I'm not one to embrace the popular by virtue of its simple popularity; I tend to go looking for stuff I like. If that happens to be Segovia, Chapdelain, O'Dette, bubblegum pop, or Scandinavian prog, so be it. I suspect that sentiment is commonplace among those who participate in something like a lute list. I suppose I just wish more of the masses were more like those of us engaged in discourse here. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of gary Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:08 PM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: > . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and > romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations > because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of > repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed > for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the > tastes of one person shape the state of an art. > > Respectfully, > Eugene > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
The irony is that Michael's turn to steel string guitar and pop/folk music would only have confirmed Segovia in his disdain. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:26, Braig, Eugene wrote: Chapdelain was the first-ever winner of the Guitar Foundation of America competition, but now specializes in fingerstyle arrangements of pop music on steel-string guitar: http://www.michaelchapdelaine.com/. He's now fond of taking the stage as a barefoot bohemian. Discussing the Segovia masterclass with Michael over a pint of fine ale is much more entertaining than watching it on Youtube. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I just listened to some of his arrangements. I really like is interpretation (a romantic on the lute page - what the heck). Thank you for the link. It looks like he moved on nicely from his encounter with Segovia. Many would have been destroyed. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Braig, Eugene Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 1:27 PM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Chapdelain was the first-ever winner of the Guitar Foundation of America competition, but now specializes in fingerstyle arrangements of pop music on steel-string guitar: http://www.michaelchapdelaine.com/. He's now fond of taking the stage as a barefoot bohemian. Discussing the Segovia masterclass with Michael over a pint of fine ale is much more entertaining than watching it on Youtube. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Durbrow Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:00 AM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Jeez, that kid deserved a medal for courage under fire! He also still appeared to be brainwashed. Poor talented kid. Probably a venerated master by now. On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:53 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: > This is referred to often: > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > David > > *** > David van Ooijen > [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote: > > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a > "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular > to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him > actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to > me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there > were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his > mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on > Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on > the shear number and ardor of his admirers. > Gary > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ --
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I like his video of Barrios' Julia Florida here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xViga3wZK0E&feature=c4-overview&list=UUz4pWE-2iug9aUF2_PXgaHg - he does not seem to have the stiffness associated with CG playing... He seems to avoid barrés whenever possible -- something I relate to and might explain greater body relaxation. However, I find his version of Wrecking ball less fortunate:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3fVH_QKHwA&list=UUz4pWE-2iug9aUF2_PXgaHg - not enough tongue? - even if probably more commercially profitable. Alain Chapdelain was the first-ever winner of the Guitar Foundation of America competition, but now specializes in fingerstyle arrangements of pop music on steel-string guitar: http://www.michaelchapdelaine.com/. He's now fond of taking the stage as a barefoot bohemian. Discussing the Segovia masterclass with Michael over a pint of fine ale is much more entertaining than watching it on Youtube. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Durbrow Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:00 AM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Jeez, that kid deserved a medal for courage under fire! He also still appeared to be brainwashed. Poor talented kid. Probably a venerated master by now. On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:53 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: This is referred to often: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote: Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ --
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Chapdelain was the first-ever winner of the Guitar Foundation of America competition, but now specializes in fingerstyle arrangements of pop music on steel-string guitar: http://www.michaelchapdelaine.com/. He's now fond of taking the stage as a barefoot bohemian. Discussing the Segovia masterclass with Michael over a pint of fine ale is much more entertaining than watching it on Youtube. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Durbrow Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:00 AM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Jeez, that kid deserved a medal for courage under fire! He also still appeared to be brainwashed. Poor talented kid. Probably a venerated master by now. On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:53 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: > This is referred to often: > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > David > > *** > David van Ooijen > [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote: > > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a > "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular > to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him > actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to > me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there > were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his > mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on > Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on > the shear number and ardor of his admirers. > Gary > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ --
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
. . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 3:23 PM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Really? What about the others? What about Tarrega's disciples (specially Pujol), Barrios, and all the other latin american guitarists? They wouldn't exist without Segovia? I don't think so. There are so many forgotten names... 2013/12/15 Chris Barker <[1]csbarker...@att.net> Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's > efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy > the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old > Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young > guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an > uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be > heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in > 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older > and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in > great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:csbarker...@att.net 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Jeez, that kid deserved a medal for courage under fire! He also still appeared to be brainwashed. Poor talented kid. Probably a venerated master by now. On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:53 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: > This is referred to often: > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > David > > *** > David van Ooijen > [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote: > > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a > "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular > to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him > actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to > me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there > were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his > mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on > Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on > the shear number and ardor of his admirers. > Gary > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ --
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I heard he made himself ten years younger early in his career, so it must have been impressive for a man in his nineties or even older... Am 16.12.2013, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Paul Overell : In message <57-52ae0970.3010...@tobiah.org>, Tobiah writes On 12/15/2013 10:52 AM, Chris Barker wrote: I wonder too about other recent comments that suggest that he may have played in public longer into his years than he had ought. Not at all ... I saw Segovia play on three occasions, the last time at the Fairfield Halls, Croyden, UK. He was very old. Walked on stage very slowly, his guitar brought to him once he had sat down - all to a standing ovation. No doubt his playing was past well its best - but it didn't matter one jot - we were watching, listening to a living legend. It was magnificent, an experience I will never forget. Regards -- Viele Grüße Best regards Stephan Olbertz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
In message <57-52ae0970.3010...@tobiah.org>, Tobiah writes >On 12/15/2013 10:52 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > >I wonder too about other recent comments that suggest >that he may have played in public longer into his years >than he had ought. Not at all ... I saw Segovia play on three occasions, the last time at the Fairfield Halls, Croyden, UK. He was very old. Walked on stage very slowly, his guitar brought to him once he had sat down - all to a standing ovation. No doubt his playing was past well its best - but it didn't matter one jot - we were watching, listening to a living legend. It was magnificent, an experience I will never forget. Regards -- Paul Overell To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Segovia's collection of Sor has value as a pedagogical tool regardless of its source. Re: Segovia's name is larger than Sor's on the book. It occurred to me that this may have been at the suggestion of the publisher. Segovia was probably more well known than Sor at the time so his name would sell more books. Gary On 2013-12-15 09:23, Christopher Wilke wrote: It was shown some time ago that Segovia did not use Sor's original versions in making his edition of the 20 studies. Instead, he knew them through versions edited by Sor's student Napoleon Coste. I don't know whether Coste or Segovia introduced the change you mention as I've never cross-referenced them. While we may frown on Segovia's slack research methodology, at the time it would have been quite acceptable. (It is apparently acceptable today, as the 20 Studies are still in print and still obligatory pedagogical material for classical guitarists.) But this does serve as another example of Segovia's massive influence: These 20 studies out of the considerable number (hundreds?) written by Sor are the only ones known to 99% of guitarists, simply because they feature his name on the cover. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com > Some > teachers think, students should follow them first then develop their > own ideas, Some of Segovia's master class "students" were better players than he was, and in any other context, the "master" tossing a student out of a master class because the student didn't religiously follow the master's transcription (even the portamento inserted into a transcription of a piano piece) would be a grotesque absurdity. But of course, for many of those students the point of being in Segovia's class was to put "student of Segovia" on their resumes -- as if it actually meant something other than "I played in his master class" -- and perhaps even get some sort of testimonial. So I suppose the rules were different. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
That's interesting, Chris. What part of the string would get repaired? Would that be a gut string? If it's not too much trouble may I ask you to scan that page for me. I confess, it's pure curiosity. Sean On Dec 15, 2013, at 1:01 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Emilio Pujol was a fine teacher and performer. Francisco Tarrega was Pujol's teacher. Pujol, though a master, never received the exposure Segovia had. Tarrega taught Pujol to play with nailess right hand fingertips, and Pujol passed that technique on to others. I presume that Segovia's use of nails, and increased volume of his instrument because of that, might have gotten him bigger audiences. Interestingly I have one of Pujol's instruction books. It is an English translation. How accurate I don't know. One part that we don't think much of these days is a section on repairing broken strings. After reading that I certainly was glad I grew up in the era of nylon strings. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:23 PM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Really? What about the others? What about Tarrega's disciples (specially Pujol), Barrios, and all the other latin american guitarists? They wouldn't exist without Segovia? I don't think so. There are so many forgotten names... 2013/12/15 Chris Barker <[1]csbarker...@att.net> Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:csbarker...@att.net 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Emilio Pujol was a fine teacher and performer. Francisco Tarrega was Pujol's teacher. Pujol, though a master, never received the exposure Segovia had. Tarrega taught Pujol to play with nailess right hand fingertips, and Pujol passed that technique on to others. I presume that Segovia's use of nails, and increased volume of his instrument because of that, might have gotten him bigger audiences. Interestingly I have one of Pujol's instruction books. It is an English translation. How accurate I don't know. One part that we don't think much of these days is a section on repairing broken strings. After reading that I certainly was glad I grew up in the era of nylon strings. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:23 PM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Really? What about the others? What about Tarrega's disciples (specially Pujol), Barrios, and all the other latin american guitarists? They wouldn't exist without Segovia? I don't think so. There are so many forgotten names... 2013/12/15 Chris Barker <[1]csbarker...@att.net> Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's > efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy > the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old > Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young > guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an > uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be > heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in > 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older > and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in > great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:csbarker...@att.net 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Really? What about the others? What about Tarrega's disciples (specially Pujol), Barrios, and all the other latin american guitarists? They wouldn't exist without Segovia? I don't think so. There are so many forgotten names... 2013/12/15 Chris Barker <[1]csbarker...@att.net> Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's > efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy > the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old > Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young > guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an > uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be > heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in > 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older > and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in > great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:csbarker...@att.net 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
My cursory perusal of the available YouTube videos show mostly an aging man. I'll make an effort to expose myself to more of his recordings. Toby Be careful: his recording may sue you for gross indecency. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 12/15/2013 10:52 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. I did admit at the outset, that I little knowledge of what influence he had on the direction of the music that he played. As for him resting peacefully, I seem to have pricked your previously expressed overwhelming admiration for the man, which was not my intention. It would be however in my estimation a pity, if the discussion of the efforts of musicians that have passed was limited only to praise. I wonder too about other recent comments that suggest that he may have played in public longer into his years than he had ought. My cursory perusal of the available YouTube videos show mostly an aging man. I'll make an effort to expose myself to more of his recordings. Toby Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I hope Segovia saw that his work was good, and rested on the 6th day. RT On 12/15/2013 1:52 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
The scholarly thought has it rather that he jumped on Llobet's bandwagon. RT On 12/15/2013 1:52 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Sir, Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the popular things that they have become today. We all owe him reverence for that. Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six years. Please help to make that rest peaceful. Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's > efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy > the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old > Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young > guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an > uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be > heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in > 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older > and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in > great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the music did for its advancement? I know little of that - only what I see on YouTube of his performances. Allowing for possibly lesser recording engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear. *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive dissection of his point of view* Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Howard, On Sun, 12/15/13, howard posner wrote: > In Segovia's edition of Sor studies (which > features Segovia's name in much bigger type than Sor's on > the cover) he changed it to "con calma." Up yours, > Fernando... It was shown some time ago that Segovia did not use Sor's original versions in making his edition of the 20 studies. Instead, he knew them through versions edited by Sor's student Napoleon Coste. I don't know whether Coste or Segovia introduced the change you mention as I've never cross-referenced them. While we may frown on Segovia's slack research methodology, at the time it would have been quite acceptable. (It is apparently acceptable today, as the 20 Studies are still in print and still obligatory pedagogical material for classical guitarists.) But this does serve as another example of Segovia's massive influence: These 20 studies out of the considerable number (hundreds?) written by Sor are the only ones known to 99% of guitarists, simply because they feature his name on the cover. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com > Some > teachers think, students should follow them first then develop their > own ideas, Some of Segovia's master class "students" were better players than he was, and in any other context, the "master" tossing a student out of a master class because the student didn't religiously follow the master's transcription (even the portamento inserted into a transcription of a piano piece) would be a grotesque absurdity. But of course, for many of those students the point of being in Segovia's class was to put "student of Segovia" on their resumes -- as if it actually meant something other than "I played in his master class" -- and perhaps even get some sort of testimonial. So I suppose the rules were different. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 15/12/13 4:47 AM, William Samson wrote: Segovia's early years seem to be unclear. Does anybody know where he learned to play? Did he study with a master? The Wikipedia article on Segovia gives some of his early history, though I don't know how reliable it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andres_Segovia#Early_life Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection!!
Pity help anyone in the future trying to find something about the "Bream Collection" The majority of the comments bear no connection to the subject but seem to be based on much conjecture and sometime ,wishful thinking. Sure, discuss technique etc but please give an appropriate heading Tom. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I've heard that Segovia's response to Julian Bream's success was, "An Englishman playing guitar is an abomination," although I don't think that constitutes bullying, just the crankiness of an extremely opinionated man whose opinions were not always correct. Bream later dedicated an entire album in homage to Segovia. I saw Segovia in concert five times and each performance was magnificent. It was his recordings that drew me to the guitar. It was Bream who introduced me to the lute. On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:44 AM, gary wrote: Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. There were stories about him rigging competitions in favor of his chosen disciples and otherwise throwing his weight around, but it would be hard to confirm things like that, because people (other than Michael Chapdelaine, I suppose) don't like to admit to being bullied, and Segovia's cult of personality was such that it wasn't in the interest of anyone in the classical guitar community to criticize him openly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Did Michael Chapdelaine tell IN WHICH REGARD his eyes were opened by Segovia's behaviour? Did he explain WHAT he learned? Is it obvious WHY his playing pleased the maestro afterwards? Is there any INSIGHT or only a clever guy trying to accomodate to a brutal social game? My first guess upon watching the video would actually be: The student felt an urgent or even burning need to be taken serious and even be praised by Segovia and was totally shocked by his reaction. He was speechless in the situation, humiliated and probably very angry against Segovia, but without expressing his feelings. Then he coped very quickly by understanding what he had to say and how he had to play in a renewed effort to be welcomed in the family. And he cleverly did so. So it looks to me. Best Franz --- Dr. Franz Mechsner Zum Kirschberg 40 D-14806 Belzig OT Borne franz.mechs...@gmx.de +49(0)33841-441362 Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 um 11:07 Uhr Von: gary An: lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On 2013-12-14 03:53, David van Ooijen wrote: I don't see any bullying here, as uncomfortable as it is to watch. And in the student's discussion of the event, he says Segovia's criticisms and behavior were justified and an eye opener. That same student later plays for Segovia who praises his performance. Gary > This is referred to often: > [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk > David > > *** > David van Ooijen > [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > [3][2]www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 2013-12-14 03:53, David van Ooijen wrote: I don't see any bullying here, as uncomfortable as it is to watch. And in the student's discussion of the event, he says Segovia's criticisms and behavior were justified and an eye opener. That same student later plays for Segovia who praises his performance. Gary This is referred to often: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Segovia's early years seem to be unclear. Does anybody know where he learned to play? Did he study with a master? Most of us need to stand on the shoulders of giants, one way or another. Nowadays we are fortunate to be able to attend summer schools where we can have a lesson with the best lutenists (- though as David has pointed out, not all are the best teachers :D ). Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Wise words, Franz Whilst still at Conservatory, we had the opportunity of having lessons with many of the great musicians in early music. Not all were great teachers. But if we prepared ourselves well, we could get the best out of any lesson by asking the right questions and preparing the right pieces. Know your audience and prepare yourself for them. In other words, a good lesson can be like giving a good concert. David On 15 December 2013 05:46, Franz Mechsner <[1]franz.mechs...@gmx.de> wrote: A quick addition to my earlier note. When I taught at the university I now and then was confronted with students who would not agree to my fundamental views, or even had an attitude toward science which I considered superficial and ill-educated. Obviously I tended to consider my own decade-long efforts a guarantee that I was certainly right and these students wrong. So my attitude towards the problem was "These guys are not so intelligent and dedicated as it should be, and therefore I will not work with them" rather than "These guys would not follow my way, and therefore I am angry." In any case, a dismissive attitude against some students would certainly send a signal to all students to behave obediently in order to please me. Bad thing of course, as my intention was to stimulate own thinking and creativity thus doubting and contradicting the teacher should be encouraged and even embraced rather than implicitly forbidden. So I had to educate myself to always take the student seriously, even if I think he or she is not worth the trouble. You can always ask the student why he or she holds a certain view or act a certain way and learn from it or/and explain your own view in a friendly manner. I think Segovia had dedicated so much genius and effort into his views on music, interpretations, fingerings etc. that he was unable to imagine that a student could have done better, or simply could have done what is best for him at that point in his or her development. Some teachers think, students should follow them first then develop their own ideas, while others consider developing the students own mind so important that they should dare to think and get better in this over time - you have to start after all, allow yourself and be allowed to make errors of course - no need to be perfect from the beginning, and no justification to be looked upon for own thinking and being gratified for obedience. To support and encourage the students here even if it leads to that they may contradict you is certainly one of the great challenges for a teacher. Best Franz -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: > I think Segovia had dedicated so much genius and effort into his views > on music, interpretations, fingerings etc. that he was unable to > imagine that a student could have done better Never mind students; he thought he knew better than composers. My personal favorite example is Sor's D minor study, opus 6 number 9. Sor marked it "andante agitato." In Segovia's edition of Sor studies (which features Segovia's name in much bigger type than Sor's on the cover) he changed it to "con calma." Up yours, Fernando... > Some > teachers think, students should follow them first then develop their > own ideas, Some of Segovia's master class "students" were better players than he was, and in any other context, the "master" tossing a student out of a master class because the student didn't religiously follow the master's transcription (even the portamento inserted into a transcription of a piano piece) would be a grotesque absurdity. But of course, for many of those students the point of being in Segovia's class was to put "student of Segovia" on their resumes -- as if it actually meant something other than "I played in his master class" -- and perhaps even get some sort of testimonial. So I suppose the rules were different. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
A quick addition to my earlier note. When I taught at the university I now and then was confronted with students who would not agree to my fundamental views, or even had an attitude toward science which I considered superficial and ill-educated. Obviously I tended to consider my own decade-long efforts a guarantee that I was certainly right and these students wrong. So my attitude towards the problem was "These guys are not so intelligent and dedicated as it should be, and therefore I will not work with them" rather than "These guys would not follow my way, and therefore I am angry." In any case, a dismissive attitude against some students would certainly send a signal to all students to behave obediently in order to please me. Bad thing of course, as my intention was to stimulate own thinking and creativity thus doubting and contradicting the teacher should be encouraged and even embraced rather than implicitly forbidden. So I had to educate myself to always take the student seriously, even if I think he or she is not worth the trouble. You can always ask the student why he or she holds a certain view or act a certain way and learn from it or/and explain your own view in a friendly manner. I think Segovia had dedicated so much genius and effort into his views on music, interpretations, fingerings etc. that he was unable to imagine that a student could have done better, or simply could have done what is best for him at that point in his or her development. Some teachers think, students should follow them first then develop their own ideas, while others consider developing the students own mind so important that they should dare to think and get better in this over time - you have to start after all, allow yourself and be allowed to make errors of course - no need to be perfect from the beginning, and no justification to be looked upon for own thinking and being gratified for obedience. To support and encourage the students here even if it leads to that they may contradict you is certainly one of the great challenges for a teacher. Best Franz --- Dr. Franz Mechsner Zum Kirschberg 40 D-14806 Belzig OT Borne franz.mechs...@gmx.de +49(0)33841-441362 Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 um 05:09 Uhr Von: "Franz Mechsner" An: "howard posner" Cc: lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed There are many stories out there about Segovia, among them quite a few about rude manners toward students who would not use his fingerings or, more gerneral, wouldn't play his way. There are even worse stories, which cannot easily be verified, so I prefer to be silent about them. He was not the only genius who was extremely kind and supporting to his admirers and those who followed his way but harsh, excluding and even terrifying to people with their own mind and those who simply did not manage cleverly enough to please him. Multi-faceted personality. Certainly problematic with students. Maybe there was a pressure that now comes out of them, with some neglect of the benefits they got out of studying with him. Another voice in this regard: [1][1]http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/oct/14/john-williams-accuse s-s egovia-snob John Williams says guitar maestro Andres Segovia bullied students and stifled their creativity In a new biography, John Williams says his former teacher forced pupils to play in his style and was musically snobbish John Williams, left, has accused his former teacher, Andres Segovia, of snobbishness. Photographs: C. Christodoulou/Lebrecht; Erich Auerbach/Corbis Andres Segovia is revered as one of the greatest guitarists of the 20th century. But, 25 years after his death, his reputation is being challenged by one of his former students, the guitar virtuoso John Williams, who has attacked him as a musical and social snob who stifled creativity among his students. Williams, an Australian who lives in the UK, studied with the Spanish maestro in the 1950s and believes that Segovia looked down on music without the right classical provenance and bullied young musicians with teaching methods that were unsympathetic and unhelpful. His disparaging comments are to be published this month in a new biography, entitled Strings Attached: The Life and Music of John Williams. The author, William Starling, a friend, has had Williams's full co-operation. Starling told the Observer that Williams was "famously private", resisting the very notion of a biography until now: "His family and friends were amazed when he agreed to do it." He added that, despite being a pupil of Segovia, "he is very outspoken about [him] and the way Segovia is hailed as being the mo
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
defended the Spaniard, describing Williams's criticisms as unfair: "Segovia's pupils all played very differently. Segovia's guitar was always absolutely lyrical. He saw the guitar as a melodic instrument... John is perhaps the most technically accomplished guitarist the world has seen... A worthy successor to Segovia." EMI Classics, whose recordings include Segovia's performances, declined to comment. --- Dr. Franz Mechsner Zum Kirschberg 40 D-14806 Belzig OT Borne franz.mechs...@gmx.de +49(0)33841-441362 Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 um 00:30 Uhr Von: "howard posner" An: lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:44 AM, gary wrote: > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. There were stories about him rigging competitions in favor of his chosen disciples and otherwise throwing his weight around, but it would be hard to confirm things like that, because people (other than Michael Chapdelaine, I suppose) don't like to admit to being bullied, and Segovia's cult of personality was such that it wasn't in the interest of anyone in the classical guitar community to criticize him openly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/oct/14/john-williams-accuses-segovia-snob 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:44 AM, gary wrote: > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I > think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and > that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into > agreeing with his views. There were stories about him rigging competitions in favor of his chosen disciples and otherwise throwing his weight around, but it would be hard to confirm things like that, because people (other than Michael Chapdelaine, I suppose) don't like to admit to being bullied, and Segovia's cult of personality was such that it wasn't in the interest of anyone in the classical guitar community to criticize him openly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Joe, This whole thing started with the merits of "Hoppy and alumni." I'm sure the validity of that influence will be debated after they pass on. For better or worse. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Sat, 12/14/13, Mayes, Joseph wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed To: "r.turov...@gmail.com" , "Chris Barker" , "'gary'" , "'lutelist'" Date: Saturday, December 14, 2013, 9:33 AM Segovia's influence on the lute revival is "once-removed" Many of todays top players began with the classical guitar - for better or worse - there can be no doubt as to Segovia's influence there - for better or worse. I wonder how many people will debate our influences thirty years after we die. Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of r.turov...@gmail.com [r.turov...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 9:19 AM To: Chris Barker; 'gary'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed I have not even heard of Segovia when I had my first lute lesson 30 years ago, and to this day I find it unimaginable that such an unmusical personality could exert such an influence. Or any influence, for that matter. As to lute revival - he takes no credit for that whatsoever. That took place in spite of him. RT On 12/14/2013 8:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. > > In all sincerity, > > Chris Barker > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of gary > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:44 AM > To: lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". > I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. > Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. > > Gary > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Gary, On Sat, 12/14/13, gary wrote: > I have never heard > of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus > for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor > of his admirers. That still sounds like bullying to me. Take the stereotypical high school bully: Once a following of sycophants has been established, he or she doesn't actually have to do the dirty work. A word from the bully leader is sufficient for the entourage to know who's in, who's out and who should have a life of constant hell. Eventually, they'll know the code of cool without the leader even mentioning anything. Same thing happens in the workplace or politics. True, Segovia was a great artist who made a invaluable contribution to classical guitar in the 20th century. There is no question that he was also a bully who worked by proxy via his sycophants to silence the voice of rivals. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Segovia's influence on the lute revival is "once-removed" Many of todays top players began with the classical guitar - for better or worse - there can be no doubt as to Segovia's influence there - for better or worse. I wonder how many people will debate our influences thirty years after we die. Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of r.turov...@gmail.com [r.turov...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 9:19 AM To: Chris Barker; 'gary'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed I have not even heard of Segovia when I had my first lute lesson 30 years ago, and to this day I find it unimaginable that such an unmusical personality could exert such an influence. Or any influence, for that matter. As to lute revival - he takes no credit for that whatsoever. That took place in spite of him. RT On 12/14/2013 8:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the > guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have > today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society > almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to > Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice > who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first > guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, > much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics > in great disdain. > > In all sincerity, > > Chris Barker > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of gary > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:44 AM > To: lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". > I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and > that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into > agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and > his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar > gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any > actual bullying on Segovia's part. > Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor > of his admirers. > > Gary > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I have not even heard of Segovia when I had my first lute lesson 30 years ago, and to this day I find it unimaginable that such an unmusical personality could exert such an influence. Or any influence, for that matter. As to lute revival - he takes no credit for that whatsoever. That took place in spite of him. RT On 12/14/2013 8:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. In all sincerity, Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of gary Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:44 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I agree with you Chris, he did good things for all of us. Playing in concert halls, bringing new music forward, researching some early music, his dedication to the guitar and spreading the word is a debt we all have. People forget the way the world was then. Allan > Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's > efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy > the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old > Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young > guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an > uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be > heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in > 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older > and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in > great disdain. > > In all sincerity, > > Chris Barker > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of gary Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:44 AM To: lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a > "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to > bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him > actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me > that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were > many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his > mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on > Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the > shear number and ardor of his admirers. > > Gary > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 14/12/13 8:42 AM, Gary R. Boye wrote: It reminded me that I often think that someone transported from another century--even the 19th like Segovia, but especially the early music period--would be horrified at how noisy our modern world is. I've lived in the country for the past 7 years, and have become used to the quiet. When I visit Toronto, from time to time, I find my senses assaulted by the noise, light, and, especially, the stink of a big city, and can hardly wait to get back home. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 14/12/13 8:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote: And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. My main memory of that concert by Segovia, aside from the escalotor incident, is of a grumpy looking old man sitting alone on a huge stage with 3000 people watching and listening. He hardly seemed to move, yet this most glorious music poured forth. His very stillness was an inspiration. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Re: Gary's comments on Segovia... If it were not for Segovia's efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy the places they have today. I was at a dinner put on by the old Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only be heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s. I took my first guitar lessons in 1958. We all considered Andres Segovia a saint. And now, much older and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in great disdain. In all sincerity, Chris Barker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of gary Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:44 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Dear Geoff, Interesting story. It reminded me that I often think that someone transported from another century--even the 19th like Segovia, but especially the early music period--would be horrified at how noisy our modern world is. Not just concert halls, but everywhere: cars, buses, ventilation, computers, cell phones, lights, music from tiny speakers and little earbuds, etc. Things are humming all around us constantly; true silence is a rarity. Then we just listen to the ringing in our ears from all of the noise we've been exposed to. Gary -- Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 12/14/2013 8:20 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: On 14/12/13 7:31 AM, Gary R. Boye wrote: Thanks for this; it is worth watching the *whole video* . . . I'm not sure Chapdelaine felt he was being needlessly bullied Yes, it's interesting to hear Chapdelaine's reaction to the "bullying." Segovia was amazingly sensitive to the slightest things. At the one concert of his I ever attended, he came out on stage at the Place des Arts in Montréal, sat for a moment while the audience began to settle down, then got up and stormed off the stage. My immediate thought was that the audience had been too noisy. He came back out, sat down again, and played the concert. I would have never known what had happened, except that I happened to know the wife of the impresario who had organized the concert. She was backstage when he stormed out, and what he demanded was that the escalators in the lobby be turned off. Despite the noisy audience he could hear through them to the miniscule noise caused by the escalators. As soon as the escalators were turned off, he was satisfied, and went ahead with the concert. I had been in the audience at Place des Arts many timnes for many different concerts, and had never been aware of any noise from the escalators, even though I was far closer to the escalators than Segovia on stage, and did not have audience noise to interfere. The man, though advanced in years, had amazing ears. Geoff To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
On 14/12/13 7:31 AM, Gary R. Boye wrote: Thanks for this; it is worth watching the *whole video* . . . I'm not sure Chapdelaine felt he was being needlessly bullied Yes, it's interesting to hear Chapdelaine's reaction to the "bullying." Segovia was amazingly sensitive to the slightest things. At the one concert of his I ever attended, he came out on stage at the Place des Arts in Montréal, sat for a moment while the audience began to settle down, then got up and stormed off the stage. My immediate thought was that the audience had been too noisy. He came back out, sat down again, and played the concert. I would have never known what had happened, except that I happened to know the wife of the impresario who had organized the concert. She was backstage when he stormed out, and what he demanded was that the escalators in the lobby be turned off. Despite the noisy audience he could hear through them to the miniscule noise caused by the escalators. As soon as the escalators were turned off, he was satisfied, and went ahead with the concert. I had been in the audience at Place des Arts many timnes for many different concerts, and had never been aware of any noise from the escalators, even though I was far closer to the escalators than Segovia on stage, and did not have audience noise to interfere. The man, though advanced in years, had amazing ears. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Dear David, Thanks for this; it is worth watching the *whole video* . . . I'm not sure Chapdelaine felt he was being needlessly bullied, but there are many similar stories from other (non-filmed) masterclasses. I've also talked to others from this same masterclass who felt that Segovia was rather complacent and inattentive to their playing--maybe after seeing what happened here they expected more fire. "Hmm . . . fine . . . next" was his attitude to them . . . Maybe they played too much like him? As a teacher, I'm not sure this is the best approach to get across to students, but when they come into a masterclass just wanting to play for someone and not expecting to actually learn anything, maybe that's just what happens . . . sort of what Michael says afterwards. Gary -- Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 12/14/2013 6:53 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: This is referred to often: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote: Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
This is referred to often: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote: Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on the shear number and ardor of his admirers. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Dear Chris, you are right of course. The justification level is very high here :) If one cuts to the chase though, I think that there are several discussions going on at the same time in this thread. 1. The HIP discussion 2. The personal approach discussion 3. The nails - no nails discussion 4. The gut versus no or partial gut discussion 5. The lute versus guitar discussion 6. The Segovia-Bream-Hoppy discussion as well as a few others. So, a real amalgam of discussions in just the one thread! Great! It clarifies many things, at least for me, and like sometimes happens, a few golden nuggets pop up. Its usually very difficult to concentrate on just one topic in an internet thread. It quickly seems to branch out into a whole tree. Happens all the time. Sometimes sooner than later. But that's OK. That's how life is like. We are so lucky to have so many truly knowledgeable, funny, dedicated, empathetic people on this list. I'm glad to be a lurker! Thanks, and happy holidays to all! G. PS. HIGHEST OT WARNING!!! I highly recommend watching the BBC documentary "Surviving progress" on youtube. Its really thought-provoking! - Original Message - From: "Christopher Wilke" To: "JosephMayes" ; "Bruno Correia" ; ; "Ron Andrico" Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 2:10 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Ron, On Thu, 12/12/13, Ron Andrico wrote: Stubbs did not come to the lute from the typical classical guitar background and thus has no reason to justify his technique. Ron, with this crowd, ya gotta justify everything ;-) Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Ron, On Thu, 12/12/13, Ron Andrico wrote: > Stubbs did not come to the lute from the typical classical guitar > background and thus has no reason to justify his > technique. Ron, with this crowd, ya gotta justify everything ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Alexander-
Thank you. THAT is the discussion we should be having. I hope everyone
who has had a dog in this fight follows your last link and reads the
whole thing. Here is a sample to get you interested: (Paul Beier's
translation of Piccinni, with the original theorbo poster's comments.)
"when you pluck a string, you touch the string with the highest part of
the flash, and, pushing the string toward the soundboard, you let the
nail escape the two strings, and it sounds very good". that's not all
Piccinini says about nails. He says they must be long enough that they
"surely succeed the flesh," and gives details on how they should be
shaped (the index, middle, and ring should be oval shaped), and even
Beier agrees with all of this (this will be discussed below). Also,
even if what you included was the only thing he says, I don't think
anybody could reasonably argue that he is not describing nails
technique here. Sorry for those who belong to the guitar-allergic
school of the past, but what Piccinini describes, i.e. plucking the
string with the very tip of the flesh (which is under the nail), and
following through with the nail, is exactly that same thing done today
by classical guitarists.
They also discuss Mouton's thumb nail, but the link I provided earlier
gives far better detail. But that thread does have one clear picture
that could shock some of us. :-D
Dan
On 12/12/2013 3:40 PM, Alexander Batov wrote:
The link seems to have got corrupted. Hope it works this time:
[1]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349&set=a.14395
7805732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply
On 12/12/2013 23:25, Alexander Batov wrote:
Here is a more well-mannered, illustrated (scroll towards the
bottom of
the page) discussion on RH nails, Mouton etc:
[1][2]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349&set=a.14
395780
5732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply
Alexander
---- Original Message
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:18:19 -0800
From: Dan Winheld [2][3]
To: Mayes, Joseph [3][4], Christopher Wilke
[4][5], Bruno Correia
[5][6],
List LUTELIST [6][7]
Thank you also, Chris for your last post. Very enlightening, your
experience of nails with Baroque Lute vs. nails on Classical guitar.
That's the kind of in depth reporting that is needed (and much like
the
re-discovery of lute RH technique in general- thumbs in, out, and
all
the rest) and is one reason why I am still waiting for a good,
accurate
explanation & translation of Piccinni's comments on nails- and
anyone
else's from the time periods that matter- not because I personally
want
or need to use nails, but because I run into other players;
occasionally
students, who need nails for their guitar work but want to do as
well as
they can on lutes and other double course, historically problematic
instruments.
Don't know why this nail business has to be such an emotionally hot
button issue (as it always seems to have been, even just amongst the
guitarists themselves) any more than synthetic vs. historic
stringing,
playing position/location of the right hand, frets, and the myriad
other
trivia- that, taken all together- make such big differences from
historic practice in this era. Can't it be discussed just a tad less
emotional heat? It's just one of a number of fascinating & annoying
details that make this whole early music endeavor so much fun. Keeps
it
interesting, no?
Consider this: a low tension gut strung 11 course French Baroque
lute,
as depicted in Charles Mouton's famous painting & engraving; his
right
hand arched & bent as much as any modern classical guitarist (and
more
than Julian Bream's), right down at the bridge- and we assume no
nails-
but check a good, detailed enlargement of his right thumb in the
engraving- click on and enlarge the right hand area, computer screen
brightened up all the way:
[7][8]http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portr
ait-of-charles-
mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html
How much different will that sound be, compared to a sensitive,
highly
trained, informed and experienced player who uses nails- (perhaps a
little closer to the rose?) I believe Toyohiko Satoh has released a
CD
where he does indeed (but presumably sans nails) play his historic
lute
just like that, low tension all-gut
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
The link seems to have got corrupted. Hope it works this time: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=399709983490349&set=a.143957805732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply On 12/12/2013 23:25, Alexander Batov wrote: Here is a more well-mannered, illustrated (scroll towards the bottom of the page) discussion on RH nails, Mouton etc: [1]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349&set=a.14395780 5732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply Alexander Original Message -------- Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:18:19 -0800 From: Dan Winheld [2] To: Mayes, Joseph [3], Christopher Wilke [4], Bruno Correia [5], List LUTELIST [6] Thank you also, Chris for your last post. Very enlightening, your experience of nails with Baroque Lute vs. nails on Classical guitar. That's the kind of in depth reporting that is needed (and much like the re-discovery of lute RH technique in general- thumbs in, out, and all the rest) and is one reason why I am still waiting for a good, accurate explanation & translation of Piccinni's comments on nails- and anyone else's from the time periods that matter- not because I personally want or need to use nails, but because I run into other players; occasionally students, who need nails for their guitar work but want to do as well as they can on lutes and other double course, historically problematic instruments. Don't know why this nail business has to be such an emotionally hot button issue (as it always seems to have been, even just amongst the guitarists themselves) any more than synthetic vs. historic stringing, playing position/location of the right hand, frets, and the myriad other trivia- that, taken all together- make such big differences from historic practice in this era. Can't it be discussed just a tad less emotional heat? It's just one of a number of fascinating & annoying details that make this whole early music endeavor so much fun. Keeps it interesting, no? Consider this: a low tension gut strung 11 course French Baroque lute, as depicted in Charles Mouton's famous painting & engraving; his right hand arched & bent as much as any modern classical guitarist (and more than Julian Bream's), right down at the bridge- and we assume no nails- but check a good, detailed enlargement of his right thumb in the engraving- click on and enlarge the right hand area, computer screen brightened up all the way: [7]http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles- mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html How much different will that sound be, compared to a sensitive, highly trained, informed and experienced player who uses nails- (perhaps a little closer to the rose?) I believe Toyohiko Satoh has released a CD where he does indeed (but presumably sans nails) play his historic lute just like that, low tension all-gut, RH and all. Dan -- References 1.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349&set=a.143957805732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply 2.mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3.mailto:ma...@rowan.edu 4.mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 5.mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 6.mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7.http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Here is a more well-mannered, illustrated (scroll towards the bottom of
the page) discussion on RH nails, Mouton etc:
[1]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349&set=a.14395780
5732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply
Alexander
Original Message
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:18:19 -0800
From: Dan Winheld [2]
To: Mayes, Joseph [3], Christopher Wilke
[4], Bruno Correia [5],
List LUTELIST [6]
Thank you also, Chris for your last post. Very enlightening, your
experience of nails with Baroque Lute vs. nails on Classical guitar.
That's the kind of in depth reporting that is needed (and much like the
re-discovery of lute RH technique in general- thumbs in, out, and all
the rest) and is one reason why I am still waiting for a good, accurate
explanation & translation of Piccinni's comments on nails- and anyone
else's from the time periods that matter- not because I personally want
or need to use nails, but because I run into other players; occasionally
students, who need nails for their guitar work but want to do as well as
they can on lutes and other double course, historically problematic
instruments.
Don't know why this nail business has to be such an emotionally hot
button issue (as it always seems to have been, even just amongst the
guitarists themselves) any more than synthetic vs. historic stringing,
playing position/location of the right hand, frets, and the myriad other
trivia- that, taken all together- make such big differences from
historic practice in this era. Can't it be discussed just a tad less
emotional heat? It's just one of a number of fascinating & annoying
details that make this whole early music endeavor so much fun. Keeps it
interesting, no?
Consider this: a low tension gut strung 11 course French Baroque lute,
as depicted in Charles Mouton's famous painting & engraving; his right
hand arched & bent as much as any modern classical guitarist (and more
than Julian Bream's), right down at the bridge- and we assume no nails-
but check a good, detailed enlargement of his right thumb in the
engraving- click on and enlarge the right hand area, computer screen
brightened up all the way:
[7]http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-
mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html
How much different will that sound be, compared to a sensitive, highly
trained, informed and experienced player who uses nails- (perhaps a
little closer to the rose?) I believe Toyohiko Satoh has released a CD
where he does indeed (but presumably sans nails) play his historic lute
just like that, low tension all-gut, RH and all.
Dan
--
References
1.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349&set=a.143957805732236.27163.13540520662&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_reply
2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
3. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
4. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7.
http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I've just listened to his Kellner recording and for my taste, honestly, it has an unpleasant sound (even with his great playing). I don't know if he is playing with nails, but as the sound is so metallic it confirms your statement. Now, that is a true silvery tone, no sweetness around. I don't care if people play with nails on carbon strings with amplification, there are always those who will be very pleased. That's fine. But the object of the discussion (as it is a lute list) is the info derived from the sources not each one's taste. We know Piccinini advocated the use of nails, who else? 2013/12/12 Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> I'm surprised there has been no mention of Stephen Stubbs in this conversation. Stubbs did not come to the lute from the typical classical guitar background and thus has no reason to justify his technique. He has played lute with nails for many years and has recorded some of the most utterly musical interpretations of the baroque lute repertory I have heard to date. The thing about his playing is that you don't pay attention to his technique because you are distracted by his sensitive and intelligent musical choices. RA -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I'm surprised there has been no mention of Stephen Stubbs in this conversation. Stubbs did not come to the lute from the typical classical guitar background and thus has no reason to justify his technique. He has played lute with nails for many years and has recorded some of the most utterly musical interpretations of the baroque lute repertory I have heard to date. The thing about his playing is that you don't pay attention to his technique because you are distracted by his sensitive and intelligent musical choices. RA > Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:09:33 -0500 > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; bruno.l...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: ma...@rowan.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > Thanks, Chris > > You've raised the level of discourse. > > Best, > > Joe > > > On 12/12/13 8:48 AM, "Christopher Wilke" wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my > > activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend > > with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been > > baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable > > sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally > > cracked how to do it. > > > > It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a > > course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that > > "playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar > > technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't > > play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't > > play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few > > models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails. > > It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend > > when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no > > real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically > > accurate right hand position in general.) > > > > Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering > > seriously. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. > > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > > www.christopherwilke.com > > > > > > On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph wrote: > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > To: "Bruno Correia" , "List LUTELIST" > > > > Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM > > > > OK good people, this will be my final > > post on this subject. I grow weary of > > the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - > > "take the > > trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. > > > > > > On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" > > wrote: > > > >> 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> > >> Well, browse the recordings since mid > > seventies. > >> > >> Well, I was sort of fearing some > > push-back from the "tap-dancing > >> barefoot" crowd. I don't know how > > you can speak for most of the > >> lutenists out there. I certainly > > only meant to speak for me. > >> > >> > >> No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those > > who didn't have the trouble to > >> learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, > > North, Herringman, Lislevand, > >> Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and > > many others how to do it. > >> It's not that difficult and the result is > > pure joy. > > Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish > > you joy of your > > "pure joy." > >> > >> Sweetness requires nails. The sound > > - sort of a "thub, thub" one > >> achieves without them is so > > unsatisfying as to be lamentable. > >> > >> Fungus? That&#x
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Thank you also, Chris for your last post. Very enlightening, your experience of nails with Baroque Lute vs. nails on Classical guitar. That's the kind of in depth reporting that is needed (and much like the re-discovery of lute RH technique in general- thumbs in, out, and all the rest) and is one reason why I am still waiting for a good, accurate explanation & translation of Piccinni's comments on nails- and anyone else's from the time periods that matter- not because I personally want or need to use nails, but because I run into other players; occasionally students, who need nails for their guitar work but want to do as well as they can on lutes and other double course, historically problematic instruments. Don't know why this nail business has to be such an emotionally hot button issue (as it always seems to have been, even just amongst the guitarists themselves) any more than synthetic vs. historic stringing, playing position/location of the right hand, frets, and the myriad other trivia- that, taken all together- make such big differences from historic practice in this era. Can't it be discussed just a tad less emotional heat? It's just one of a number of fascinating & annoying details that make this whole early music endeavor so much fun. Keeps it interesting, no? Consider this: a low tension gut strung 11 course French Baroque lute, as depicted in Charles Mouton's famous painting & engraving; his right hand arched & bent as much as any modern classical guitarist (and more than Julian Bream's), right down at the bridge- and we assume no nails- but check a good, detailed enlargement of his right thumb in the engraving- click on and enlarge the right hand area, computer screen brightened up all the way: http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html How much different will that sound be, compared to a sensitive, highly trained, informed and experienced player who uses nails- (perhaps a little closer to the rose?) I believe Toyohiko Satoh has released a CD where he does indeed (but presumably sans nails) play his historic lute just like that, low tension all-gut, RH and all. Dan On 12/12/2013 7:09 AM, Mayes, Joseph wrote: Thanks, Chris You've raised the level of discourse. Best, Joe On 12/12/13 8:48 AM, "Christopher Wilke" wrote: Joe, No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally cracked how to do it. It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that "playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails. It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically accurate right hand position in general.) Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering seriously. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed To: "Bruno Correia", "List LUTELIST" Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM OK good people, this will be my final post on this subject. I grow weary of the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - "take the trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" wrote: 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph<[1]ma...@rowan.edu> Well, browse the recordings since mid seventies. Well, I was sort of fearing some push-back from the "tap-dancing barefoot" crowd. I don't know how you can speak for most of the lutenists out there. I certainly only meant to speak for me. No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those who didn't have the trouble to learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, North, Herringman, Lislevand, Ferre, Barto (the list is
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Thanks, Chris You've raised the level of discourse. Best, Joe On 12/12/13 8:48 AM, "Christopher Wilke" wrote: > Joe, > > No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my > activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend > with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been > baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable > sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally > cracked how to do it. > > It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a > course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that > "playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar > technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't > play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't > play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few > models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails. > It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend > when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no > real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically > accurate right hand position in general.) > > Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering > seriously. > > Chris > > > > Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > www.christopherwilke.com > > > On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph wrote: > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > To: "Bruno Correia" , "List LUTELIST" > > Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM > > OK good people, this will be my final > post on this subject. I grow weary of > the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - > "take the > trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. > > > On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" > wrote: > >> 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> >> Well, browse the recordings since mid > seventies. >> >> Well, I was sort of fearing some > push-back from the "tap-dancing >> barefoot" crowd. I don't know how > you can speak for most of the >> lutenists out there. I certainly > only meant to speak for me. >> >> >> No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those > who didn't have the trouble to >> learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, > North, Herringman, Lislevand, >> Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and > many others how to do it. >> It's not that difficult and the result is > pure joy. > Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish > you joy of your > "pure joy." >> >> Sweetness requires nails. The sound > - sort of a "thub, thub" one >> achieves without them is so > unsatisfying as to be lamentable. >> >> Fungus? That's pure speculation. About > Sor, check his method, no >> research needed it's there. > Yes Sor advised against nails - the word I objected to was > "hated" I don't > see that in the method. >> >> Tarrega played with nails until he > lost them due to fungus - He >> convinced his late-in-life student > Pujol that flesh was the way to >> go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to > see that research. >> >> >> Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute > praxis and Bream wasn't a >> lutenist in the first place (actually he > never assumed he was - this is >> documented in an interview). The stars do > not agree entirely with >> themselves, but the important points > remain the same. > I guess you're more acquainted with "rubish" than am I. For > someone who > wasn't a lutenist, Bream recorded and performed quite a > lot. >> >> As for "asking Hoppy," I think that > illustrates part of the problem >> with the HIP folks. Because the > stars do it one way - that's the >> right way. Bear in mind that > Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they >> had it right, too. >> >> I thought this list was supposedly a place > to discuss lute performance >> practice and not each ones taste. Some > peo
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Joe, No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally cracked how to do it. It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that "playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails. It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically accurate right hand position in general.) Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering seriously. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed To: "Bruno Correia" , "List LUTELIST" Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM OK good people, this will be my final post on this subject. I grow weary of the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - "take the trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" wrote: > 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> > Well, browse the recordings since mid seventies. > > Well, I was sort of fearing some push-back from the "tap-dancing > barefoot" crowd. I don't know how you can speak for most of the > lutenists out there. I certainly only meant to speak for me. > > > No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those who didn't have the trouble to > learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, North, Herringman, Lislevand, > Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and many others how to do it. > It's not that difficult and the result is pure joy. Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish you joy of your "pure joy." > > Sweetness requires nails. The sound - sort of a "thub, thub" one > achieves without them is so unsatisfying as to be lamentable. > > Fungus? That's pure speculation. About Sor, check his method, no > research needed it's there. Yes Sor advised against nails - the word I objected to was "hated" I don't see that in the method. > > Tarrega played with nails until he lost them due to fungus - He > convinced his late-in-life student Pujol that flesh was the way to > go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to see that research. > > > Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute praxis and Bream wasn't a > lutenist in the first place (actually he never assumed he was - this is > documented in an interview). The stars do not agree entirely with > themselves, but the important points remain the same. I guess you're more acquainted with "rubish" than am I. For someone who wasn't a lutenist, Bream recorded and performed quite a lot. > > As for "asking Hoppy," I think that illustrates part of the problem > with the HIP folks. Because the stars do it one way - that's the > right way. Bear in mind that Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they > had it right, too. > > I thought this list was supposedly a place to discuss lute performance > practice and not each ones taste. Some people may prefer to play with > nails on carbon single strings and with amplification. What does it > have to do with HIP? Lute performance practice has everything to do with each one's taste. I assume that historical performance varied as greatly as contemporary performance - dictated by "each one's taste." But really, I am as HIP as the next fellow - I sound just like the paintings. > > But, as I say, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Play > any way you want to, just leave the dogma on the porch. > Joseph Mayes > __
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
OK good people, this will be my final post on this subject. I grow weary of the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - "take the trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" wrote: >2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> >Well, browse the recordings since mid seventies. > > Well, I was sort of fearing some push-back from the "tap-dancing > barefoot" crowd. I don't know how you can speak for most of the > lutenists out there. I certainly only meant to speak for me. > > >No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those who didn't have the trouble to >learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, North, Herringman, Lislevand, >Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and many others how to do it. >It's not that difficult and the result is pure joy. Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish you joy of your "pure joy." > > Sweetness requires nails. The sound - sort of a "thub, thub" one > achieves without them is so unsatisfying as to be lamentable. > >Fungus? That's pure speculation. About Sor, check his method, no >research needed it's there. Yes Sor advised against nails - the word I objected to was "hated" I don't see that in the method. > > Tarrega played with nails until he lost them due to fungus - He > convinced his late-in-life student Pujol that flesh was the way to > go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to see that research. > > >Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute praxis and Bream wasn't a >lutenist in the first place (actually he never assumed he was - this is >documented in an interview). The stars do not agree entirely with >themselves, but the important points remain the same. I guess you're more acquainted with "rubish" than am I. For someone who wasn't a lutenist, Bream recorded and performed quite a lot. > > As for "asking Hoppy," I think that illustrates part of the problem > with the HIP folks. Because the stars do it one way - that's the > right way. Bear in mind that Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they > had it right, too. > >I thought this list was supposedly a place to discuss lute performance >practice and not each ones taste. Some people may prefer to play with >nails on carbon single strings and with amplification. What does it >have to do with HIP? Lute performance practice has everything to do with each one's taste. I assume that historical performance varied as greatly as contemporary performance - dictated by "each one's taste." But really, I am as HIP as the next fellow - I sound just like the paintings. > > But, as I say, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Play > any way you want to, just leave the dogma on the porch. > Joseph Mayes > > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Bruno Correia [[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:29 PM > To: List LUTELIST > >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > It may sound good to you, but not for most of the lutenists out >there. > Ask Hoppy about this issue? Ok, you don't need to ask him, after all > you don't ride a horse to the gig... Hey, I'd like to do that, the > traffic has been so bad nowadays. > The most frequent word to describe the lute's sound is sweetness! >How > can you have achieve it with nails? Double strings also require that > both strings be pressed at once and not one after the other. The >lute > is after all a sweet instrument (specially with gut). Even in >classical > guitar tutors (19th-20th century) the issue of nails was still >rolling > on. Sor hated it and only tolerated Aguado because of his great >skill. > That's why Tarrega and Pujol also avoided it (even if it was a > requirement due to the high tension of the Torres guitar). > Going back: The sources were just saying that many people were >careless > about their sound production. In order to avoid it, what about >cutting > your nails once and a while, washing your hands (daily if you can)? > 2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph <[1][5]ma...@rowan.edu> > > I play the lute, archlute and vihuela with nails for the same >reason > that I > play the classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better!
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
May I endorse Bruno and state academic research is a fantastic knowledge work. Making interesting music is another thing. Violinist and writer Judy Tarling has been twice in Brazil and showed us how academic research can be included into making lively, interesting music. She writes and plays upon the highest excellence standards. I am sure Hopkinson has spent his share of time learning about the musical knowledge generated by research besides being an extraordinary musician. The lute-work Bruno does here is as important to us. Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 12.12.2013, às 00:26, Bruno Correia escreveu: 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> Well, browse the recordings since mid seventies. Well, I was sort of fearing some push-back from the "tap-dancing barefoot" crowd. I don't know how you can speak for most of the lutenists out there. I certainly only meant to speak for me. No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those who didn't have the trouble to learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, North, Herringman, Lislevand, Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and many others how to do it. It's not that difficult and the result is pure joy. Sweetness requires nails. The sound - sort of a "thub, thub" one achieves without them is so unsatisfying as to be lamentable. Fungus? That's pure speculation. About Sor, check his method, no research needed it's there. Tarrega played with nails until he lost them due to fungus - He convinced his late-in-life student Pujol that flesh was the way to go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to see that research. Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute praxis and Bream wasn't a lutenist in the first place (actually he never assumed he was - this is documented in an interview). The stars do not agree entirely with themselves, but the important points remain the same. As for "asking Hoppy," I think that illustrates part of the problem with the HIP folks. Because the stars do it one way - that's the right way. Bear in mind that Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they had it right, too. I thought this list was supposedly a place to discuss lute performance practice and not each ones taste. Some people may prefer to play with nails on carbon single strings and with amplification. What does it have to do with HIP? But, as I say, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Play any way you want to, just leave the dogma on the porch. Joseph Mayes From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia [[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:29 PM To: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed It may sound good to you, but not for most of the lutenists out there. Ask Hoppy about this issue? Ok, you don't need to ask him, after all you don't ride a horse to the gig... Hey, I'd like to do that, the traffic has been so bad nowadays. The most frequent word to describe the lute's sound is sweetness! How can you have achieve it with nails? Double strings also require that both strings be pressed at once and not one after the other. The lute is after all a sweet instrument (specially with gut). Even in classical guitar tutors (19th-20th century) the issue of nails was still rolling on. Sor hated it and only tolerated Aguado because of his great skill. That's why Tarrega and Pujol also avoided it (even if it was a requirement due to the high tension of the Torres guitar). Going back: The sources were just saying that many people were careless about their sound production. In order to avoid it, what about cutting your nails once and a while, washing your hands (daily if you can)? 2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph <[1][5]ma...@rowan.edu> I play the lute, archlute and vihuela with nails for the same reason that I play the classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better! Of course, by that I mean it sounds better to me. Nails give the attack a precision that flesh does not. It also comes closer, IMHO to the sound usually described in historical sources as desirable on lute - silvery, tinkling, etc. Many sources tell us not to use nails - which they wouldn't have bothered to do if people were not doing it that way. I don't play with flesh, I don't ride my horse to the gig, and I don't attend any bear-bating. My $.02 Joseph mayes -- References 1. mailto:[6]ma...@rowan.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu>
Well, browse the recordings since mid seventies.
Well, I was sort of fearing some push-back from the "tap-dancing
barefoot" crowd. I don't know how you can speak for most of the
lutenists out there. I certainly only meant to speak for me.
No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those who didn't have the trouble to
learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, North, Herringman, Lislevand,
Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and many others how to do it.
It's not that difficult and the result is pure joy.
Sweetness requires nails. The sound - sort of a "thub, thub" one
achieves without them is so unsatisfying as to be lamentable.
Fungus? That's pure speculation. About Sor, check his method, no
research needed it's there.
Tarrega played with nails until he lost them due to fungus - He
convinced his late-in-life student Pujol that flesh was the way to
go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to see that research.
Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute praxis and Bream wasn't a
lutenist in the first place (actually he never assumed he was - this is
documented in an interview). The stars do not agree entirely with
themselves, but the important points remain the same.
As for "asking Hoppy," I think that illustrates part of the problem
with the HIP folks. Because the stars do it one way - that's the
right way. Bear in mind that Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they
had it right, too.
I thought this list was supposedly a place to discuss lute performance
practice and not each ones taste. Some people may prefer to play with
nails on carbon single strings and with amplification. What does it
have to do with HIP?
But, as I say, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Play
any way you want to, just leave the dogma on the porch.
Joseph Mayes
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Bruno Correia [[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:29 PM
To: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
It may sound good to you, but not for most of the lutenists out
there.
Ask Hoppy about this issue? Ok, you don't need to ask him, after all
you don't ride a horse to the gig... Hey, I'd like to do that, the
traffic has been so bad nowadays.
The most frequent word to describe the lute's sound is sweetness!
How
can you have achieve it with nails? Double strings also require that
both strings be pressed at once and not one after the other. The
lute
is after all a sweet instrument (specially with gut). Even in
classical
guitar tutors (19th-20th century) the issue of nails was still
rolling
on. Sor hated it and only tolerated Aguado because of his great
skill.
That's why Tarrega and Pujol also avoided it (even if it was a
requirement due to the high tension of the Torres guitar).
Going back: The sources were just saying that many people were
careless
about their sound production. In order to avoid it, what about
cutting
your nails once and a while, washing your hands (daily if you can)?
2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph <[1][5]ma...@rowan.edu>
I play the lute, archlute and vihuela with nails for the same
reason
that I
play the classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better!
Of course, by that I mean it sounds better to me. Nails give the
attack a
precision that flesh does not. It also comes closer, IMHO to the
sound
usually described in historical sources as desirable on lute -
silvery,
tinkling, etc.
Many sources tell us not to use nails - which they wouldn't have
bothered to
do if people were not doing it that way.
I don't play with flesh, I don't ride my horse to the gig, and I
don't
attend any bear-bating.
My $.02
Joseph mayes
--
References
1. mailto:[6]ma...@rowan.edu
To get on or off this list see list information at
[7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Bruno Figueiredo
Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
--
References
1. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
5. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
6. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Do you think he needed it? 2013/12/10 Tom Draughon <[1]t...@heartistrymusic.com> With Viagra he may have had more! -- References 1. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I feel more like I do now than I ever did before. The past is the future of the present. Gary On 2013-12-10 18:17, Sean Smith wrote: If things weren't like they were, they'd be different! s On Dec 10, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Tom Draughon wrote: With Viagra he may have had more! Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com Sent from my iPhone 715-682-9362 On Dec 10, 2013, at 7:36 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: Well, with our lifestyle they wouldn't have produced any lute music at all. With a big screen tv and an internet connection, Bach would have had far less kids around too... 2013/12/10 <[1]guitarandl...@earthlink.net> I like nails, the sound of nails. I like nylon strings. Who knows what they would have used if they had modern strings, 600 sandpaper, and diamond files, not to mention super glue. I always think the point is to make pleasing music and have fun. It doesn't matter to me how anyone plays. Do what makes you happy and have fun. Allan -Original Message- From: "Mayes, Joseph" <[2]ma...@rowan.edu> Sent: Dec 10, 2013 11:23 AM To: Bruno Correia <[3]bruno.l...@gmail.com>, List LUTELIST <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed I play the lute, archlute and vihuela with nails for the same reason that I play the classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better! Of course, by that I mean it sounds better to me. Nails give the attack a precision that flesh does not. It also comes closer, IMHO to the sound usually described in historical sources as desirable on lute - silvery, tinkling, etc. Many sources tell us not to use nails - which they wouldn't have bothered to do if people were not doing it that way. I don't play with flesh, I don't ride my horse to the gig, and I don't attend any bear-bating. My $.02 Joseph mayes On 12/10/13 11:05 AM, "Bruno Correia" <[5]bruno.l...@gmail.com> wrote: Here we go again with the nails issue. There are many sources describing the use of flesh as the best way to sound upon the lute, however, the use of nails was certainly a possibility. But only because three cats used it doesn't mean it was the general taste of those times. Just because Jimi Hendrix played with his teeth doesn't mean that everyone does it today. I could only justify the nails if I still played the classical guitar, otherwise what benefit would it bring? 2013/12/10 Martin Shepherd <[1][6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> Well, there's Piccinini, who recommends playing with nails, and Mace, who says that some people do it and think it's the best way, but he says it might be OK in an ensemble but doesn't like it for solo playing. There may be others - Weiss? Vihuela references? I'm sure others can help. Martin -- References 1. mailto:[7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:guitarandl...@earthlink.net 2. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu 3. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 6. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 7. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
