[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
ront of the index finger. Indeed, as Mathias said, the position effects the top strings much more strongly than it does the basses. (Mathias suggested that one of the reasons few people adopt this 90° to the strings index finger position, could be that it is somewhat guitar like, and this tends to be shunned, but lutenists). I just repeat these links here for reference: In front of the bridge: http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg Behind the bridge: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/Ember/brugghen-1628.gif On the bridge: http://tinyurl.com/ago2rd This is not a criticism of Satoh's position, just to point to the fact that he is really about as far back as you can go. His lute bowl is large which helps the bass, and he often uses a "Dutch' lute which benefits from a long bass string length. So there is not much left to do to help the bass for more lowering of tension. Any help, now must come from a change of string type, if not loaded, then say toroidal twine, with only on element of the twine going through the bridge; perhaps if Damian's high torsion strings give a similar result they will do the trick. Of course loading with a wire, could also do that, but demifilé usually result in oval shape holes, and apparently these are not observed on old 11c bridges, and not mentioned in Mace or Burwell. While they might not have been able to notice loading, they could not fail to notice a thread of wire, either within or without. All we can ask is for one of the other hypotheses to be able to pass a suitable string through the smalles bass string lute holes, and on lutes as short as the Charles Mouton lute. Damain may already have done this, or thinks he will be able to do this, with his new strings. I am certainly not going to complain. We should all be happy at having new solutions to our gut bass string problems. Note however that at present on a 68cm lute T. Satoh apparently has 11C at 1,82 diameter, and 2,4Kg (see below), which of course would not pass a historic lute hole. For a 66,5cm lute this diameter would increase; while the tension would actually need to drop to a little under 1,5Kg if we are to get anywhere near the hole size. Regards Anthony PS I hadn't realized that "pinkie" (a form I don't usually use) is the Dutch equivalent of "fingie", borrowed into English. T. Satoh's string set up according to David van Ooijen: Baroque lute 68cm 415Hz (standard tension) For 11 course: 68cm 1)fâ = T40V (3.2kg) 2) dâ = T46V (3.1kg) 3) a = T54 (2.4kg) 4) f = T66 (2.2kg) 5) d = P78 (2.2kg) 6) A = P108(2.4kg)/ & octave a = T54 (2.4kg) 7) G = P122 (2.4kg) & octave g = T60 (2.3kg) 8) F = P136 (2.4kg) & oct. f = T68 (2.4kg) 9) E/Eflat = P/G148 (E2.5/Eflat2.2) & oct. e = T74 (2.5kg/ eb 2.2kg) 10) D = P/G162 (2.4kg) & oct. d = T80(2.3kg) 11) C = P/G182 (2.4kg) & oct. c = T 92 (2.4kg) For 13 course: ± 76cm. 12)Bâ/Bâflat = G176(2.5/2.2kg) & oct. B/Bflat T88 (2.5/2.2kg) 13)Aâ = G194 (2.4kg) & octave A= T96 (2.3kg) For 13 course French (Dutch) head: 10) ±72cm D = P 154 (2.4kg) & oct. d = T 76 (2.4kg) 11) ±77cm C = P 160 (2.4kg) & oct. c = T 80 (2.4kg) 12) ±82cm Bâ/Bâflat = P164 (2.5/2.2kg) & oct. B/Bflat = T82 (2.5/2.2kg) 13) ±87cm Aâ = P170 (2.4kg) & oct. A = T 84(2.35kg) For 14 course French (Dutch) head: 11) ±72cm C = G172 (2.4kg) & oct. C = T 86 (2.4kg) 12) ±77cm Bâ/Bâflat = G 175 (2.5/2.2kg) & oct. B/Bflat = T 88 (2.5/2.2kg) 13) ±82cm Aâ = G180 (2.4kg) & oct. A = T90 (2.4kg) 14) ±87cm Gâ = G190 (2.4kg) & oct. G = T96 (2.45kg) T = Treble gut (single twist), T&V (varnished) P = Pistoy gut (triple twist), G = Gimp gut (silver or copper wire in gut) Le 1 mars 09 à 02:13, JarosÅaw Lipski a écrit : > Anthony, > I know these articles very well, but they don't answer some very > difficult questions. As I repeatedly say, I am not against this > theory. What I am only asking for is to call this hypothesis a > hypothesis, taking into account the present state of research. > That's all! I don't think it's too much. Some other real > possibilities do exist as well, as explained in this thread. > regards > Jaroslaw > > - Original Message - From: "Anthony Hind" > > To: "lute List" > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:34 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > > >> >> Le 28 fÄÅ vr. 09 Ä 23:39, alexander a ÄÅ crit : >> >>> http://www.aquilacorde.com/articles4.htm >> >> And you can see Mimmo taking various measurements, explained in the >> article above at this link : >> http://www.aquilacord
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Anthony, I know these articles very well, but they don't answer some very difficult questions. As I repeatedly say, I am not against this theory. What I am only asking for is to call this hypothesis a hypothesis, taking into account the present state of research. That's all! I don't think it's too much. Some other real possibilities do exist as well, as explained in this thread. Regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: "Anthony Hind" To: "lute List" Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Le 28 fĂŠvr. 09 Ă 23:39, alexander a ĂŠcrit : http://www.aquilacorde.com/articles4.htm And you can see Mimmo taking various measurements, explained in the article above at this link : http://www.aquilacorde.com/researches.htm Note that he does not just measure lute bridge holes. The same problems concern Viols. There must be some compensation in handling such instruments, however, in spite of the painstaking work: Just take a peep at the Charles IX Andrea Amati's viola (1570 ca?). Ashmolean Museum, Oxford 2007 http://www.aquilacorde.com/amati5.JPG The 4th hole on the tailpiece of the Amati viol has a diameter of 2.3 mm only against the necessary pure gut of not less than 2.8-3 mm (according to Mimmo).- If the hole was 2.3 we can suppose that the string was around 2.0 mm. We are either dealing with very very low tension or loading, or some sort of pretensioned stringing. Anthony On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:36:10 +0100 JarosĹaw Lipski wrote: Mimmo told me that he actually checked 70 lutes from which only 50% had original bridges. On the total, 13 were 13 course -lutes (not important here); 13 were 11 course lutes (d minor, of course) ; 3 with 10 course, 1 with 12 courses and short extended neck (like the Gaultier English engraving or like the Satoh's lute); 2 with 7 courses; 2 with 8 courses. Just one was a Liuto attiorbato of 13 courses and another was an archlute. I didn't say that these mesurements mean nothing. I just wanted to show the proportion of the present research to the amount of the lutes that existed in 16-18th c. Besides we have only lutes in museums which mean that their state may or may not be 100% original - they weren't X-rayed yet. The smaller bridge hole just signifies that the string gauge would be smaller. But as mentioned before this can mean some other things as well. As I posted before, incidently I was forced to string my theorbo with guts much thiner than usual. The 14th course is 1.2 mm at the moment (which would go through any historical hole) and the instrument works better than ever. The tension is low, but if you shift the hand towards the bridge (as on paintings) it sounds great. How many people do what the paintings show us - RH close to the bridge TO. Even Mace says: "That your little finger, be still fixt under the bridge. That your thumb end lye upon the last bass; I mean the end of your thumb, about three or four inches above the bridge" This is really close to the bridge. Than he says: "Put the end of your second finger, a very little under the treble string, (about three inches above the bridge)". If the tip of the thumb is 4 inches from the bridge and the second finger (index) 3 inches, we end with the hand position similar to Satoh's, but slightly more TO. I tryed to put in practice his remarks, and it seems to work on my low tension theorbo. We have to take into account the possibilitie that the plain gut produced then, could be of different type than modern so the tone would be even better. The last quite important factor is the string action which is often very low now, but didn't need to be so in 17 c. I am not the advocate of any theory. Actually I like "loading" hypothesis and am whole-heartedly for Mimmo's research, but I still prefer to call this a hypothesis (in spite Mimmo's evidence is strong) until it's scientificly prooved. I hope he will get support for his research! Actually, I really think and I am not alone in this conviction that we need a complete and at least a substantial survey. That's all. There are other string makers whose theorys are strong too.I am just a lute player and have nothing to say about this any more. If you have any doubts please consult them. I just responded to Anthony's emails, but don't claim to be a string expert as none of us is I suppose. Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Le 28 févr. 09 à 23:39, alexander a écrit : > http://www.aquilacorde.com/articles4.htm And you can see Mimmo taking various measurements, explained in the article above at this link : http://www.aquilacorde.com/researches.htm Note that he does not just measure lute bridge holes. The same problems concern Viols. There must be some compensation in handling such instruments, however, in spite of the painstaking work: Just take a peep at the Charles IX Andrea Amati's viola (1570 ca?). Ashmolean Museum, Oxford 2007 http://www.aquilacorde.com/amati5.JPG The 4th hole on the tailpiece of the Amati viol has a diameter of 2.3 mm only against the necessary pure gut of not less than 2.8-3 mm (according to Mimmo).- If the hole was 2.3 we can suppose that the string was around 2.0 mm. We are either dealing with very very low tension or loading, or some sort of pretensioned stringing. Anthony > > > On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:36:10 +0100 > JarosÅaw Lipski wrote: > >> Mimmo told me that he actually checked 70 lutes from which only >> 50% had >> original bridges. On the total, 13 were 13 course -lutes (not >> important >> here); 13 were 11 course lutes (d minor, of course) ; 3 with 10 >> course, 1 >> with 12 courses and short extended neck (like the Gaultier English >> engraving >> or like the Satoh's lute); 2 with 7 courses; 2 with 8 courses. >> Just one was >> a Liuto attiorbato of 13 courses and another was an archlute. >> I didn't say that these mesurements mean nothing. I just wanted to >> show the >> proportion of the present research to the amount of the lutes that >> existed >> in 16-18th c. Besides we have only lutes in museums which mean >> that their >> state may or may not be 100% original - they weren't X-rayed yet. The >> smaller bridge hole just signifies that the string gauge would be >> smaller. >> But as mentioned before this can mean some other things as well. >> As I posted >> before, incidently I was forced to string my theorbo with guts >> much thiner >> than usual. The 14th course is 1.2 mm at the moment (which would >> go through >> any historical hole) and the instrument works better than ever. >> The tension >> is low, but if you shift the hand towards the bridge (as on >> paintings) it >> sounds great. >> How many people do what the paintings show us - RH close to the >> bridge TO. >> Even Mace says: >> "That your little finger, be still fixt under the bridge. That >> your thumb >> end lye upon the last bass; I mean the end of your thumb, >> about >> three or four inches above the bridge" >> This is really close to the bridge. Than he says: >> "Put the end of your second finger, a very little under the treble >> string, >> (about three inches above the bridge)". >> If the tip of the thumb is 4 inches from the bridge and the second >> finger >> (index) 3 inches, we end with the hand position similar to >> Satoh's, but >> slightly more TO. I tryed to put in practice his remarks, and it >> seems to >> work on my low tension theorbo. We have to take into account the >> possibilitie that the plain gut produced then, could be of >> different type >> than modern so the tone would be even better. The last quite >> important >> factor is the string action which is often very low now, but >> didn't need to >> be so in 17 c. >> I am not the advocate of any theory. Actually I like "loading" >> hypothesis >> and am whole-heartedly for Mimmo's research, but I still prefer to >> call this >> a hypothesis (in spite Mimmo's evidence is strong) until it's >> scientificly >> prooved. I hope he will get support for his research! Actually, I >> really >> think and I am not alone in this conviction that we need a >> complete and at >> least a substantial survey. >> That's all. >> There are other string makers whose theorys are strong too.I am >> just a lute >> player and have nothing to say about this any more. If you have >> any doubts >> please consult them. I just responded to Anthony's emails, but >> don't claim >> to be a string expert as none of us is I suppose. >> >> Jaroslaw >> >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
http://www.aquilacorde.com/articles4.htm On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:36:10 +0100 Jarosław Lipski wrote: > Mimmo told me that he actually checked 70 lutes from which only 50% had > original bridges. On the total, 13 were 13 course -lutes (not important > here); 13 were 11 course lutes (d minor, of course) ; 3 with 10 course, 1 > with 12 courses and short extended neck (like the Gaultier English engraving > or like the Satoh's lute); 2 with 7 courses; 2 with 8 courses. Just one was > a Liuto attiorbato of 13 courses and another was an archlute. > I didn't say that these mesurements mean nothing. I just wanted to show the > proportion of the present research to the amount of the lutes that existed > in 16-18th c. Besides we have only lutes in museums which mean that their > state may or may not be 100% original - they weren't X-rayed yet. The > smaller bridge hole just signifies that the string gauge would be smaller. > But as mentioned before this can mean some other things as well. As I posted > before, incidently I was forced to string my theorbo with guts much thiner > than usual. The 14th course is 1.2 mm at the moment (which would go through > any historical hole) and the instrument works better than ever. The tension > is low, but if you shift the hand towards the bridge (as on paintings) it > sounds great. > How many people do what the paintings show us - RH close to the bridge TO. > Even Mace says: > "That your little finger, be still fixt under the bridge. That your thumb > end lye upon the last bass; I mean the end of your thumb, about > three or four inches above the bridge" > This is really close to the bridge. Than he says: > "Put the end of your second finger, a very little under the treble string, > (about three inches above the bridge)". > If the tip of the thumb is 4 inches from the bridge and the second finger > (index) 3 inches, we end with the hand position similar to Satoh's, but > slightly more TO. I tryed to put in practice his remarks, and it seems to > work on my low tension theorbo. We have to take into account the > possibilitie that the plain gut produced then, could be of different type > than modern so the tone would be even better. The last quite important > factor is the string action which is often very low now, but didn't need to > be so in 17 c. > I am not the advocate of any theory. Actually I like "loading" hypothesis > and am whole-heartedly for Mimmo's research, but I still prefer to call this > a hypothesis (in spite Mimmo's evidence is strong) until it's scientificly > prooved. I hope he will get support for his research! Actually, I really > think and I am not alone in this conviction that we need a complete and at > least a substantial survey. > That's all. > There are other string makers whose theorys are strong too.I am just a lute > player and have nothing to say about this any more. If you have any doubts > please consult them. I just responded to Anthony's emails, but don't claim > to be a string expert as none of us is I suppose. > > Jaroslaw > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Mimmo told me that he actually checked 70 lutes from which only 50% had original bridges. On the total, 13 were 13 course -lutes (not important here); 13 were 11 course lutes (d minor, of course) ; 3 with 10 course, 1 with 12 courses and short extended neck (like the Gaultier English engraving or like the Satoh's lute); 2 with 7 courses; 2 with 8 courses. Just one was a Liuto attiorbato of 13 courses and another was an archlute. I didn't say that these mesurements mean nothing. I just wanted to show the proportion of the present research to the amount of the lutes that existed in 16-18th c. Besides we have only lutes in museums which mean that their state may or may not be 100% original - they weren't X-rayed yet. The smaller bridge hole just signifies that the string gauge would be smaller. But as mentioned before this can mean some other things as well. As I posted before, incidently I was forced to string my theorbo with guts much thiner than usual. The 14th course is 1.2 mm at the moment (which would go through any historical hole) and the instrument works better than ever. The tension is low, but if you shift the hand towards the bridge (as on paintings) it sounds great. How many people do what the paintings show us - RH close to the bridge TO. Even Mace says: "That your little finger, be still fixt under the bridge. That your thumb end lye upon the last bass; I mean the end of your thumb, about three or four inches above the bridge" This is really close to the bridge. Than he says: "Put the end of your second finger, a very little under the treble string, (about three inches above the bridge)". If the tip of the thumb is 4 inches from the bridge and the second finger (index) 3 inches, we end with the hand position similar to Satoh's, but slightly more TO. I tryed to put in practice his remarks, and it seems to work on my low tension theorbo. We have to take into account the possibilitie that the plain gut produced then, could be of different type than modern so the tone would be even better. The last quite important factor is the string action which is often very low now, but didn't need to be so in 17 c. I am not the advocate of any theory. Actually I like "loading" hypothesis and am whole-heartedly for Mimmo's research, but I still prefer to call this a hypothesis (in spite Mimmo's evidence is strong) until it's scientificly prooved. I hope he will get support for his research! Actually, I really think and I am not alone in this conviction that we need a complete and at least a substantial survey. That's all. There are other string makers whose theorys are strong too.I am just a lute player and have nothing to say about this any more. If you have any doubts please consult them. I just responded to Anthony's emails, but don't claim to be a string expert as none of us is I suppose. Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's diameter? 10, 20 or 30? I dnot see that we need a complete or even a substantial survey. Any instance where the bridge was conceived as we see it and the diapason holes are significantly smaller than the holes for stoped basses is evidence tht smaller diameter strings were conciously used, if that then obliges the use of strings denser than natural, loading of some sort is indicated, if not overspin, then chemical. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded? & bridge holes]
We do know that Mimmo and others have measured a bunch. More than just a few, but of course not all them. (We don't even have all of them.) What would be real significant would be any old bridges that deviate from this- big holes for big gut strings. THAT would provide fuel for some real lutelist wars- and of course more research, speculation, etc. By the way, do we have at least a couple of old 6-course bridges? I'd love to know the size of the hole for the 6th course fundamental. If it's the same size as 6th course holes from say 1590 - 1620, then we have a real conundrum vis-a-vis the string technology revolution that Mimmo refers to in the late 16th century that allowed the use of bass unisons and the whole new low bass range. Dan > >>How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's >>>diameter? 10, 20 or 30? > >I dnot see that we need a complete or even a substantial survey. > >Any instance where the bridge was conceived as we see it and the diapason >holes are significantly smaller than the holes for stoped basses is >evidence tht smaller diameter strings were conciously used, if that then >obliges the use of strings denser than natural, loading of some sort is >indicated, if not overspin, then chemical. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009, Anthony Hind said: > Dana > I was quoting Daniel. Sorry, I messed up by leaving the attribution line in. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
>>How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's >>diameter? 10, 20 or 30? I dnot see that we need a complete or even a substantial survey. Any instance where the bridge was conceived as we see it and the diapason holes are significantly smaller than the holes for stoped basses is evidence tht smaller diameter strings were conciously used, if that then obliges the use of strings denser than natural, loading of some sort is indicated, if not overspin, then chemical. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
re the thumb is always well ahead of the index, when near the bridge: Burwell, Ch. 6, p. 16, last paragraph: "For the right hand, it must be placed betweene the Rose and the Bridge but nearest [sic!] to the bridge. your hand must lye vppon the belly of the Lute with the little finger onely, which must be as it were glued vnto it. and keepe the Thumbe as much as one can, leaning vpon the Base. It must be before all the rest of the hand, marching as the Captaine of the Fingers. that hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an Arche, that you may not smother the Stringes." (Punctuation marks are mine.) This corresponds with the hand shape of Charles Mouton, note the thumb well ahead of the fingers: In front of the bridge: http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg Behind the bridge: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/Ember/brugghen-1628.gif On the bridge: http://tinyurl.com/ago2rd I am not criticising his position, only showing that even with his mild low tension hypothesis, he needs to maximise all elements that can favour the bass: length of basses (bass extension), size of bowl (Burkholzer), hand shape and position. There does not seem to be much leeway left for lowering the tension further. It has been suggested to me that this could be done by using a stiff HT bass: a stiff string could pass through a 1,5mm hole if it is twisted, and perhaps oiled to help it pass. If it is stiff it should be less slack at low tension. Perhaps the tesnion would be around 1.5KG/Newtons. First it is still not clear that such a tension is playable, secondly, it would not in anyway fulfill the criterion of equal tesnion to touch (Dowland Mace, etc). I don't think you can argue that it depends where you touch the strings. Yes, if the thumb was nearer the bridge than the fingers, but it is the contrary shown in the iconography, with the little finger behind the bridge, as suggested by Mace. Secondly, Meanes and Basses are typically shown as curly and flexible, even when not under tension. That is not so for a stiff HT. http://www.aquilacorde.com/i8.htm I am not arguing against other ways of stringing. On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, and that Ed Martin will also continue experimenting with Gimped strings. The question, here, is not what is good or interesting, but about the historical issue, and for the moment, I prefer the loaded hypothesis, which better seems to account for the data. There may be yet another hypothesis remaining to be discovered, but I do thhink for the moment that the loaded hypothesis is the best, although I do not suggest for one moment that other research paths should be abadonned. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 03:08, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary about color, the majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a fourchette or production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre to burnt umbre. I hope this information helps you in your research. Cordially, Damian From: "Anthony Hind" To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Dear Jaroslaw and All If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's trade mark. Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then realized it improved
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded and the rest]
Very well put, Stewart ! All these documents from the past are worth our respect and gratefulness indeed, and who are we, more than three hundred years later, to detemnine that this one is reliable and this one is not.. As far as I know, Mersenne, Mace, Praetorius and quite a few more, are the only direct links with the music of this period and the sensitivity of our forebearers we can rely on, if we take care to read the lines and between the lines as well. Thank you to them all for taking pains to testify. Best wishes, Jean-Marie === 27-02-2009 21:50:11 === >Dear Daniel, > >The point about keeping one's lute in bed is all about damp causing >damage to the lute. A bed which is constantly used will be as dry a >place as you can find for the lute, as long as you avoid the sweat etc >between the sheets. Mace presents this gem of advice in an amusing way. >Unfortunately the passage is often quoted out of context, laughed at, >and misunderstood. People end up thinking that's all he had to say, that >he was eccentric, cranky, unreliable, to be treated with caution, etc. >Nothing could be more ridiculous. Mace was a player of the lute, viol >and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he >was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his life >- English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as >much useful, practical information as he could, for future generations, >i.e. for us. We should read the book, and be grateful. > >Best wishes, > >Stewart McCoy. > > > >-Original Message- >From: Daniel Winheld [mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net] >Sent: 27 February 2009 16:41 >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > >>What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. >> >>(Descartes last words here) >>dt > > "Don't walk away, René..." > >Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >--- >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 28-02-2009 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Jaroslaw Le 28 févr. 09 à 01:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Dear Anthony, I really didn't want to rehash and old discussion (just wanted to share an interesting picture), but in a way I am beeing forced to reply, by your claims that finaly we found the satisfactory and historicaly correct answer for lute stringing. Not that I am doing it reluctantly - I always like chatting with you, which is very stimulating - however it really seams that at this particular moment declaring victory would be premature.` That is quite the same, here. I must add that I am a linguist, and so perhaps my way of thinking might be a little different from that of a lutenist or a string maker. We are used to reconstructing forms that we know we can never observe, except indirectly through the way these forms fit into the overall patterns and properties of the language. We never throw away an analysis, until we can find a better one, but we are always looking for alternatives. That is what I would like other string makers to do. That is surely how you get progresss in ideas. You have two conflicting hypotheses, the low tension and the loaded (for example), and you confront these with the data. With luck, this makes you look for new data, as each theory puts forward its arguments. Only recently did I notice that the RH position close to the bridge, is not really what you would expect if very low tension strings were the best hypothesis. You must understand that, as a linguist, I take great glee in this sort of argumentation. I would partake in it even if it was quite impossible to use the string type that was hypothesized. Imagine if the strings were loaded with gold leaf, or a deadly poison, and there was no other way of doing it. I would still be interested. I do think Mimmo's present loaded strings happen to work superbly well for French Baroque lute music. Their slenderness solves the "intonation" problems, about which Rob complained (even when he had fairly low tension strings), Their thin Venice core presnet very low impedance at the bridge and less inharmonicity, and allied with Venice Meanes an excellent singing quality and freedom of sound on all voices: the extraordinary quality of clarity and sustain. Even if they were not historic, I believe this seems to be the sort of sound that French Baroque lutensist were searching for, if we listen to T. Bailes, and J. Lindberg. It seems that this is also the typical characteristic of a good old lute (Rauwolf, etc), and probably what the French were after when searching for the old Biologna lutes. Now I am not saying this is the only way to go. I would not at all like every lutenist to buy old lutes, loaded strings and Burwell or Mace's RH position at the bridge. As we said a little while ago, every lutenist must make his own judgement about what aspects of historic performance, or what tonal string colour, or lute shape thay decide to use. Finally the most important element is having a could "musical ear" (Jerzy Zak's monitoring feedback theory) which allows the musician to get the best out of any instrument and stringing. The rest is to a certain extent personal choice. I say to a certain extent, because some choices do seem to get closed down when musicians believe they are anachronic (sometimes quite mistakenly, of course). Like yourself, I do not want some sort of dogma closing down choice. I very much enjoyed Ed Martyn's recent recording of Conradi and Kellenr using Dan Larson's gimped strings. I would not at all advise him to change over to loaded because they might be more historically correct. He lives in the same town as Dan Larson and can have his lute tuned perfectly to both of their likings. It would be rediculous to abandon such team work. The same is true for, Satoh, he has made extremely interesting research into low tension stringing, and shown that it can allow a very open sound, providing one adopts a large bodied lute, and thumb as far back as possible on the bass strings, preferably with an extension. Why would he want to close down that research? I am not at all suggesting that. Clearly, most lutenists will discuss stringing with their lutemaker and in mutual agreement will go with that choice, while perhaps mildly tweaking the result as time goes by. In the case of Stephen Gottlieb, had the loaded strings not been ready just in time, I would have gone along with his string choice of Geaorges Stopanni pure gut basses, and I am sure I would have managed, albeit with some problems concerning the thick basses. I certainly do not want to suggest that only one string type made by only one string maker is the way to go. I understand that Damian makes excellent strings, and he is also a lutenist and plays Baroque lute. This is a huge advantage, for someone who wants to restring their lute. You do need advice from som
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
It isn't black and white. Paintings hold value; they are the postcards from the past. Mace has some good information, it just can't be taken at face value: the sense of the matter is elusive; that is its charm. To take everything as "real", the storied accounts, the catfish of Bosch playing the lute, where does this lead? Should all the harps be made with a corner chipped, and every lute have a broken string and a riff in the staves? Similarly, can we ignore the piece of music in the Laurent de La Hyre that is so carefully drawn that we can play from the gif of the painting hundreds of years later? It's just not "yar" to never trim the sails. dt >Dear Anthony, > >I really didn't want to rehash the old discussion (just wanted to >share an interesting picture), but in a way I am beeing forced to >reply, by your claims that finaly we found the satisfactory and >historicaly correct answer for lute stringing. Not that I am doing >it reluctantly - I always like chatting with you, which is very >stimulating - however it really seams that at this particular >moment declaring victory would be a little bit premature. > >>Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, >>but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original >>loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually >>see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow >>felt to be the next best thing. > >If we ignore paintings and scorn "excentric" Mace, than what >evidence are we left with? Some old Italian recepies for treating a >leather with some metal salts and the mesurements made on some old >lutes in museums. Recepies are fine, but do you have any manuscript >saying that the strings were commonly treated by "loading", not >"dyeing"? No. How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's >diameter? 10, 20 or 30? What percentage of all lutes that were build >beetwen 16 - 18 century does it constitute? Something like >0,001% ? Is this really irrefutable evidence? >I agree, there is a problem with string gauges for short lutes and >some small bridge holes, but sometimes the solution can occure very >easy and unexpected. For example, recently it happend that I ran out >of some long, thick gut strings for my theorbo and didn't have >enough time to order the new ones. So I just mooved all the courses >by one towards bass and added a thiner 8c and 1c. The effect was >surprising. My instrument sounded better with very fine projection, >easy to play, no buzzing, clear tone (not so dull as with thick >ones). And I didn't need to change my RH technique - just as usual >TO. Frankly speeking I haven't changed them since then just because >I like it very much! I am also sure that all my strings would fit >any bridge holes of the same dimention old theorbos. This doesn't >proove anything yet, but as I say, we can't outrule any possibilities. >Meanwhile I'd like to study as much evidence as possible. Including >paintings and potty Mace! I think Stuart is absolutely right saying: > >Mace was a player of the lute, viol >>and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he >>was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his life >>- English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as >>much useful, practical information as he could, for future generations, >>i.e. for us. We should read the book, and be grateful. > >Mace was trying to instruct a lute amateur in choosing the best >strings. We don't know meanings of some terms he uses, but his >description is very clear. If we don't understand something we can't >claim he was insane. >As for loaded strings, I'll say again, it can be a good solution, >but mainly for musical reasons at the moment. If we have all the >research done and the results will confirm the string loading >hypothesis than we can enjoy them for two reasons. >But, even without any further findings Mimmo does the great job for >us. Musicians need the choice, diversity. >The whole discussion reminds me of the yachting world. In the >beginning of XX century most of the yachts were of traditional >construction - wooden hulls and masts, cotton sails and elegant >narrow silhouettes guaranting good seaworthiness. Later, fiberglass >boatbuilding became a standard with wider and wider decks, bigger >cockpits and shallower shapes that don't guaranty the same level of >safety as the old ones, but are much faster. Obviously the masts and >sails are synthetic as well. Is this the end of yachting? No. >Yachting is better than ever, and it is so, because of enormous >diversity of constructions and equipment at our disposal. >Relating it to our lute world, I'd say, the bigger diversity of >strings we have the better. Just look how many people use Mimmo's >nylgut strings (knowing they aren't historical - so what?). I hope >Mimmo will find some other interesting materials even better for >making
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
ing against other ways of stringing. On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, and that Ed Martin will also continue experimenting with Gimped strings. The question, here, is not what is good or interesting, but about the historical issue, and for the moment, I prefer the loaded hypothesis, which better seems to account for the data. There may be yet another hypothesis remaining to be discovered, but I do thhink for the moment that the loaded hypothesis is the best, although I do not suggest for one moment that other research paths should be abadonned. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 03:08, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary about color, the majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a fourchette or production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre to burnt umbre. I hope this information helps you in your research. Cordially, Damian From: "Anthony Hind" To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Dear Jaroslaw and All If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's trade mark. Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list). http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, '' salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments". In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took place. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown). A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker (according to Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm) However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the artist is not just sketching-in the strings. Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the frets, for example; so why would the painter have just sketched the bass string? Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Caravaggio with slightly different c
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Anthony, I really didn't want to rehash the old discussion (just wanted to share an interesting picture), but in a way I am beeing forced to reply, by your claims that finaly we found the satisfactory and historicaly correct answer for lute stringing. Not that I am doing it reluctantly - I always like chatting with you, which is very stimulating - however it really seams that at this particular moment declaring victory would be a little bit premature. Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow felt to be the next best thing. If we ignore paintings and scorn "excentric" Mace, than what evidence are we left with? Some old Italian recepies for treating a leather with some metal salts and the mesurements made on some old lutes in museums. Recepies are fine, but do you have any manuscript saying that the strings were commonly treated by "loading", not "dyeing"? No. How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's diameter? 10, 20 or 30? What percentage of all lutes that were build beetwen 16 - 18 century does it constitute? Something like 0,001% ? Is this really irrefutable evidence? I agree, there is a problem with string gauges for short lutes and some small bridge holes, but sometimes the solution can occure very easy and unexpected. For example, recently it happend that I ran out of some long, thick gut strings for my theorbo and didn't have enough time to order the new ones. So I just mooved all the courses by one towards bass and added a thiner 8c and 1c. The effect was surprising. My instrument sounded better with very fine projection, easy to play, no buzzing, clear tone (not so dull as with thick ones). And I didn't need to change my RH technique - just as usual TO. Frankly speeking I haven't changed them since then just because I like it very much! I am also sure that all my strings would fit any bridge holes of the same dimention old theorbos. This doesn't proove anything yet, but as I say, we can't outrule any possibilities. Meanwhile I'd like to study as much evidence as possible. Including paintings and potty Mace! I think Stuart is absolutely right saying: >Mace was a player of the lute, viol and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his life - English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as much useful, practical information as he could, for future generations, i.e. for us. We should read the book, and be grateful. Mace was trying to instruct a lute amateur in choosing the best strings. We don't know meanings of some terms he uses, but his description is very clear. If we don't understand something we can't claim he was insane. As for loaded strings, I'll say again, it can be a good solution, but mainly for musical reasons at the moment. If we have all the research done and the results will confirm the string loading hypothesis than we can enjoy them for two reasons. But, even without any further findings Mimmo does the great job for us. Musicians need the choice, diversity. The whole discussion reminds me of the yachting world. In the beginning of XX century most of the yachts were of traditional construction - wooden hulls and masts, cotton sails and elegant narrow silhouettes guaranting good seaworthiness. Later, fiberglass boatbuilding became a standard with wider and wider decks, bigger cockpits and shallower shapes that don't guaranty the same level of safety as the old ones, but are much faster. Obviously the masts and sails are synthetic as well. Is this the end of yachting? No. Yachting is better than ever, and it is so, because of enormous diversity of constructions and equipment at our disposal. Relating it to our lute world, I'd say, the bigger diversity of strings we have the better. Just look how many people use Mimmo's nylgut strings (knowing they aren't historical - so what?). I hope Mimmo will find some other interesting materials even better for making perfect lute strings. And it's great we already have the loaded strings. However to claim they are historical we still have to wait, as David Tayler rightly posted: But to know what strings they used, we need to do some basic research. We have to measure every hole in every lute bridge, allowing for all the changes that might have been made. That gives us one data set--and will of course tell us a HUGE piece of information on reentrant stringing. Second, we need to do a chemical analysis of any pieces of original strings, with some layer X-rays. Until we do that, we are just guessing. Guessing is good, but it would be nice to get some basic data like we have on paper watermarks, paint composition and so on. Also, if we do the basic res
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: > People end up thinking that's all he had to say, that > he was eccentric, cranky, unreliable, to be treated with caution, etc. > Nothing could be more ridiculous. Mace was a player of the lute, viol > and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he > was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his > life > - English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as > much useful, practical information as he could, for future > generations, > i.e. for us. None of that is inconsistent with being a crank. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
I've heard and played a number of lutes strung all in gut that sound just fine. Where you start to get the clunky sound is on the low C on a ten course. I'm just going to assume that their strings were say, 20 percent better than ours. That would more than make gut stringing practical. Did they have other types of strings that we don't know about? It's intriguing, we need an old set of strings--maybe there were some on that Pirate ship where they found the Dulcian, after years of saying the Dulcian did not exist. dt At 12:52 PM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >On Feb 27, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > > > How do you account for small lutes like the Vienna Frey, without > > the loading theory? > >Lute in A? > >In G at high pitch? > >Big honkin' monster soprano lute in D? > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
On Feb 27, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > How do you account for small lutes like the Vienna Frey, without > the loading theory? Lute in A? In G at high pitch? Big honkin' monster soprano lute in D? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
thumb was nearer the bridge than the fingers, but it is the contrary shown in the iconography, with the little finger behind the bridge, as suggested by Mace. Secondly, Meanes and Basses are typically shown as curly and flexible, even when not under tension. That is not so for a stiff HT. http://www.aquilacorde.com/i8.htm I am not arguing against other ways of stringing. On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, and that Ed Martin will also continue experimenting with Gimped strings. The question, here, is not what is good or interesting, but about the historical issue, and for the moment, I prefer the loaded hypothesis, which better seems to account for the data. There may be yet another hypothesis remaining to be discovered, but I do thhink for the moment that the loaded hypothesis is the best, although I do not suggest for one moment that other research paths should be abadonned. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 03:08, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary about color, the majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a fourchette or production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre to burnt umbre. I hope this information helps you in your research. Cordially, Damian From: "Anthony Hind" To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Dear Jaroslaw and All If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's trade mark. Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list). http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, '' salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments". In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took place. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown). A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker (according to Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm) However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the artist is not just sketching-in the strings. Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the fre
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
o have been on such a small lute. There are two alternative theories: low tension and toroidal pretensioned stringing (I'll leave the second aside for the moment). There is a combination of factors to account for: even with his low tension stringing, Satoh's string diameters are too thick to pass through the small historic bridge holes. He prefers extended Dutch lutes to increase the string length with large bowls to reinforce the bass, showing that it is difficult to obtain a good bass even with the moderate low tension that he uses. Furthermore, he has to play near the bridge, not just for the top strings, but above all for the basses, as his basses are so slack. He therefore adopts an RH swallo'w nest shape with his thumb level with his index finger, as far back as it can go. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert.html Not at all the shape suggested by Burwell, or shown in the iconography, where the thumb is always well ahead of the index, when near the bridge: Burwell, Ch. 6, p. 16, last paragraph: "For the right hand, it must be placed betweene the Rose and the Bridge but nearest [sic!] to the bridge. your hand must lye vppon the belly of the Lute with the little finger onely, which must be as it were glued vnto it. and keepe the Thumbe as much as one can, leaning vpon the Base. It must be before all the rest of the hand, marching as the Captaine of the Fingers. that hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an Arche, that you may not smother the Stringes." (Punctuation marks are mine.) This corresponds with the hand shape of Charles Mouton, note the thumb well ahead of the fingers: In front of the bridge: http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg Behind the bridge: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/Ember/brugghen-1628.gif On the bridge: http://tinyurl.com/ago2rd I am not criticising his position, only showing that even with his mild low tension hypothesis, he needs to maximise all elements that can favour the bass: length of basses (bass extension), size of bowl (Burkholzer), hand shape and position. There does not seem to be much leeway left for lowering the tension further. It has been suggested to me that this could be done by using a stiff HT bass: a stiff string could pass through a 1,5mm hole if it is twisted, and perhaps oiled to help it pass. If it is stiff it should be less slack at low tension. Perhaps the tesnion would be around 1.5KG/Newtons. First it is still not clear that such a tension is playable, secondly, it would not in anyway fulfill the criterion of equal tesnion to touch (Dowland Mace, etc). I don't think you can argue that it depends where you touch the strings. Yes, if the thumb was nearer the bridge than the fingers, but it is the contrary shown in the iconography, with the little finger behind the bridge, as suggested by Mace. Secondly, Meanes and Basses are typically shown as curly and flexible, even when not under tension. That is not so for a stiff HT. http://www.aquilacorde.com/i8.htm I am not arguing against other ways of stringing. On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, and that Ed Martin will also continue experimenting with Gimped strings. The question, here, is not what is good or interesting, but about the historical issue, and for the moment, I prefer the loaded hypothesis, which better seems to account for the data. There may be yet another hypothesis remaining to be discovered, but I do thhink for the moment that the loaded hypothesis is the best, although I do not suggest for one moment that other research paths should be abadonned. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 03:08, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary about color, the majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a fourchette or production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre to burnt umbre. I hope this information helps you in your research. Cordially, Damian From: "Anthony Hind" To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Dear Jaroslaw and All If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
Dana I was quoting Daniel. These were his words: What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. Mine were ones saying how consistent Mace was, and the quoting Arthur Ness, in favour of this. Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 19:15, a écrit : On Fri, Feb 27, 2009, Anthony Hind said: What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. I fail to see how this makes Mace unreliable. I people followed that practice he is proven, only if not can he be proven unreliable; and if not, then, how did those instruments get smashed? (I assume you have the statistics, funny, havent seen any post-mortem rolls for theorbos in england) It seems he must have had a very damp environment (except in bed), the RH of bedding depends a great deal on the sleeping habits of its occupants, especially if, during particularly cold weather, they found hats insufficiant and ducked heads under the blankets for self-=preservation (as I have found necessary these severeal months past). As Arthur has noted, the citterns of Boston were oft-times stored with linens. I would think perhaps that a nice cedar blanket chest would serve for lute-sized instruments. River estuarys are commonly swampy in places, Boston would not have been alone in colonial towns in having a 'damp' season; the caribian islands as well. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
I don't see that the "Roman" analogy is a direct analogy; in the case of Apicius it is a tangled tale in a late source, with an overabundance of fish sauce. Varenne's 17th century cookbook is interesting because it is so different from those from other countries. There are many issues with Mace, but the main one in regard to the strings is that he was eccentric and far removed from the source. And I'm not saying the information isn't true, I'm just saying it isn't reliable. Elevating Mace to the level of reliable, first hand witnesses is just fitting the the facts to the theory. Even if Mace was the Samuel Pepys of the lute--which he is not--he still would be far removed from the Continent, which makes him a secondary source For example, the fact that he tuned in single reentrant for the theorbo, is that a personal quirk, or reflective of English practice, or one of several variant tunings, or reflective of a widespread Continental practice, or one of several widespread Continental tunings? Well, we just can't say--the information is interesting, but there is no evaluative context. From a compositional point of view, the narrative of the defence of English music seems to me to show that he was not really familiar with the major composers of his time. The lack of sales for his book is ascribed to the waning of the lute's popularity, but I think it is far more reasonable to assume that his book was a dud for any number of reasons, the central one presumably that much of the material was dated. I think it is pretty safe to say that the important figures in music were also for the most part unaware of Mace and his work. New evidence may come to light to rebut this, but he seems pretty far off the radar. Contrast Mace's writing with that of the eclectic Pepys: We walked to church with him, and then I left them without staying the sermon and straight home by water, and there find, as I expected, [1]Mr. Hill, and [2]Andrews, and one slovenly and ugly fellow, [3]Seignor Pedro, who sings Italian songs to the [4]theorbo most neatly, and they spent the whole evening in singing the best piece of musique counted of all hands in the world, made by [5]Seignor Charissimi, the famous master in Rome. Interesting that it was "OK" to skip out before the sermon. I think the issue here is not whether one can defend any source for music style--one can, of course, I think it is important whether there IS a difference, or whether they all get lumped together. And then, of course, people can disagree. And we will. dt > Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two > headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. > Would later chefs take it seriously? actually, three are quite a few modern cooks who are working with surviving recipies from the time of the Romans and later who would have been interested, especially in the spices. Jaded feasters were commonly served mostrosities such as swans-a-swimming and cockatrices; a two-headed boar would have been a tame sight. Apparantly, there is no evidence that thomas Mace traveled, to Italy or anywhere (Mathew Spring, _The Lute in Britain_), and, yes, there can be a difference in quality of product between differnt markets for it. But, consider that lute strings will not find a huge local market anywhere, most of them would have been marketed away from where they were produced; and production locale was most likely to have been chosen for proximity to a fleshe market to ensure fresh and conveniant raw materials. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7165.php 2. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7673.php 3. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7730.php 4. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/457.php 5. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7731.php 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009, Anthony Hind said: >>>What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. >> Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. I fail to see how this makes Mace unreliable. I people followed that practice he is proven, only if not can he be proven unreliable; and if not, then, how did those instruments get smashed? (I assume you have the statistics, funny, havent seen any post-mortem rolls for theorbos in england) > It seems he must have had a very damp environment (except in bed), the RH of bedding depends a great deal on the sleeping habits of its occupants, especially if, during particularly cold weather, they found hats insufficiant and ducked heads under the blankets for self-=preservation (as I have found necessary these severeal months past). As Arthur has noted, the citterns of Boston were oft-times stored with linens. I would think perhaps that a nice cedar blanket chest would serve for lute-sized instruments. River estuarys are commonly swampy in places, Boston would not have been alone in colonial towns in having a 'damp' season; the caribian islands as well. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. (Descartes last words here) dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. Daniel Actually this point goes very well together with the observations he makes on the rotten strings. It seems he must have had a very damp environment (except in bed), and so preferred to break his lute by bedding it between the sheets, rather than letting it rot. I only wonder why he didn't strore the strings with it. Arthur Ness, said the following: "The most popular instrument in colonial Boston was the cittern. More popular than the flute or harpsichord. These figures are derived from tax reports. Household possessions were inventoried and taxed. In any event, these reports often state that the cittern was stored with the linens! Now I understand why. In those days Boston was surrounded by water, and the humidity is even today horrendous in the summer. (The "Back Bay" was filled in during the 19th century, and several hills were leveled to provide the land fill.)" AN Regards Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 17:40, Daniel Winheld a écrit : What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. (Descartes last words here) dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
6/TSatohConcert.html Not at all the shape suggested by Burwell, or shown in the iconography, where the thumb is always well ahead of the index, when near the bridge: Burwell, Ch. 6, p. 16, last paragraph: "For the right hand, it must be placed betweene the Rose and the Bridge but nearest [sic!] to the bridge. your hand must lye vppon the belly of the Lute with the little finger onely, which must be as it were glued vnto it. and keepe the Thumbe as much as one can, leaning vpon the Base. It must be before all the rest of the hand, marching as the Captaine of the Fingers. that hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an Arche, that you may not smother the Stringes." (Punctuation marks are mine.) This corresponds with the hand shape of Charles Mouton, note the thumb well ahead of the fingers: In front of the bridge: http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg Behind the bridge: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/Ember/brugghen-1628.gif On the bridge: http://tinyurl.com/ago2rd I am not criticising his position, only showing that even with his mild low tension hypothesis, he needs to maximise all elements that can favour the bass: length of basses (bass extension), size of bowl (Burkholzer), hand shape and position. There does not seem to be much leeway left for lowering the tension further. It has been suggested to me that this could be done by using a stiff HT bass: a stiff string could pass through a 1,5mm hole if it is twisted, and perhaps oiled to help it pass. If it is stiff it should be less slack at low tension. Perhaps the tesnion would be around 1.5KG/Newtons. First it is still not clear that such a tension is playable, secondly, it would not in anyway fulfill the criterion of equal tesnion to touch (Dowland Mace, etc). I don't think you can argue that it depends where you touch the strings. Yes, if the thumb was nearer the bridge than the fingers, but it is the contrary shown in the iconography, with the little finger behind the bridge, as suggested by Mace. Secondly, Meanes and Basses are typically shown as curly and flexible, even when not under tension. That is not so for a stiff HT. http://www.aquilacorde.com/i8.htm I am not arguing against other ways of stringing. On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, and that Ed Martin will also continue experimenting with Gimped strings. The question, here, is not what is good or interesting, but about the historical issue, and for the moment, I prefer the loaded hypothesis, which better seems to account for the data. There may be yet another hypothesis remaining to be discovered, but I do thhink for the moment that the loaded hypothesis is the best, although I do not suggest for one moment that other research paths should be abadonned. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 03:08, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary about color, the majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a fourchette or production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre to burnt umbre. I hope this information helps you in your research. Cordially, Damian From: "Anthony Hind" To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Dear Jaroslaw and All If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's trade mark. Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been us
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
> Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two > headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. > Would later chefs take it seriously? actually, three are quite a few modern cooks who are working with surviving recipies from the time of the Romans and later who would have been interested, especially in the spices. Jaded feasters were commonly served mostrosities such as swans-a-swimming and cockatrices; a two-headed boar would have been a tame sight. Apparantly, there is no evidence that thomas Mace traveled, to Italy or anywhere (Mathew Spring, _The Lute in Britain_), and, yes, there can be a difference in quality of product between differnt markets for it. But, consider that lute strings will not find a huge local market anywhere, most of them would have been marketed away from where they were produced; and production locale was most likely to have been chosen for proximity to a fleshe market to ensure fresh and conveniant raw materials. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. (Descartes last words here) dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. MH --- On Fri, 27/2/09, David Tayler wrote: From: David Tayler Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Date: Friday, 27 February, 2009, 10:20 AM When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace, fact and fancy are sprinkled together. I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for when the peg spins out of control (frapping). Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source. Then there is the additional matter of geography. That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may not, it just is not reliable. And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy. Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well, tante cose! Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. Would later chefs take it seriously? (Descartes last words here) dt At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >What do you base your assumption on? >JL > >- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > > >>Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. >>dt >> >> >>At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >>>Dear Anthony, >>> >>>I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be >>>said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. >>> >>>>However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used >>>>on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. >>>>Mace tells us about rotten strings: >>>>"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, >>>>but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of >>>>the decay of the string." >>>>This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help >>>>conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are >>>>often rotten). >>> >>>I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote >>>Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: >>>Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: >>>(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are >>>(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the >>>same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the >>>smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" >>>Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: >>>"But they are much more inferior strings than the other." >>>The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted >>>twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the >>>general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not >>>be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish >>>strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't >>>jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if >>>not loaded. >>> >>>>Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they >>>>call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- >>>>Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." >>>>So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from >>>>Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. >>> >>>Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather >>>"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences >>>between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my >>>arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't >>>use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean >>>only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the >>>most common meaning of this word). >>> >>>>Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time >>>>of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed >>>>theirs red. >>>>to cash in on
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Do you suggest he was so potty that he wasn't able to discern red from yellow, blue or green color of the strings he used to buy (because this is what we are talking about, not the whole book as such)? Besides we are not discussing the scientific matters, but rather looking for some evidence which is aparently lacking. His testimony of the things he saw and experienced are of some value for us if taken with caution. JL - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace, fact and fancy are sprinkled together. I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for when the peg spins out of control (frapping). Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source. Then there is the additional matter of geography. That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may not, it just is not reliable. And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy. Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well, tante cose! Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. Would later chefs take it seriously? (Descartes last words here) dt At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: What do you base your assumption on? JL - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. dt At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: Dear Anthony, I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: (Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are (generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: "But they are much more inferior strings than the other." The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather "commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the most common meaning of this word). Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, and that Ed Martin will also continue experimenting with Gimped strings. The question, here, is not what is good or interesting, but about the historical issue, and for the moment, I prefer the loaded hypothesis, which better seems to account for the data. There may be yet another hypothesis remaining to be discovered, but I do thhink for the moment that the loaded hypothesis is the best, although I do not suggest for one moment that other research paths should be abadonned. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 03:08, damian dlugolecki a écrit : > Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to > support a historical > premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory > that supposes that > reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy > to the stringmakers > craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be > blamed for > being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the > natural color for > strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is > to say, only > mild soaps and of course soda ash. > > I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary > about color, the > majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a > fourchette or > production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre > to burnt umbre. > > I hope this information helps you in your research. > > Cordially, > > Damian > > From: "Anthony Hind" > To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" > ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute > List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > > >> Dear Jaroslaw and All >>>If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must >>> have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration >>> differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's >>> trade mark. >> >> >> Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has >> to say about his experiments with oil paint. >> However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used >> on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. >> Mace tells us about rotten strings: >> "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, >> but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of >> the decay of the string." >> This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help >> conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are >> often rotten). >> >> It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts >> (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could >> have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then >> realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list). >> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 >> The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come >> form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life >> trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, '' >> salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments". >> >> In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of >> loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took >> place. >> Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they >> call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick >> Venice- >> Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." >> So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from >> Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. >> >> Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time >> of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed >> theirs red. >> to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the >> speculation). >> >> There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like >> loading. >> On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a >> lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might >> well be a loaded 7c-D. >> http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 >> >> That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded >> string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brow
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace, fact and fancy are sprinkled together. I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for when the peg spins out of control (frapping). Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source. Then there is the additional matter of geography. That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may not, it just is not reliable. And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy. Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well, tante cose! Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. Would later chefs take it seriously? (Descartes last words here) dt At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >What do you base your assumption on? >JL > >- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > > >>Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. >>dt >> >> >>At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >>>Dear Anthony, >>> >>>I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be >>>said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. >>> >>>>However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used >>>>on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. >>>>Mace tells us about rotten strings: >>>>"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, >>>>but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of >>>>the decay of the string." >>>>This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help >>>>conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are >>>>often rotten). >>> >>>I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote >>>Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: >>>Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: >>>(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are >>>(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the >>>same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the >>>smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" >>>Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: >>>"But they are much more inferior strings than the other." >>>The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted >>>twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the >>>general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not >>>be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish >>>strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't >>>jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if >>>not loaded. >>> >>>>Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they >>>>call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- >>>>Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." >>>>So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from >>>>Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. >>> >>>Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather >>>"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences >>>between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my >>>arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't >>>use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean >>>only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the >>>most common meaning of this word). >>> >>>>Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time >>>>of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed >>>>theirs red. >>>>to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the >>>>speculation). >>> >>>The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark >>>you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But >>>they apparently weren't v
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
What do you base your assumption on? JL - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. dt At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: Dear Anthony, I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: (Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are (generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: "But they are much more inferior strings than the other." The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather "commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the most common meaning of this word). Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red commonly rotten". Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; sometimes green, very good." If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why he says the red strings were commonly rotten? It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with decay preventing. There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet. Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now. I think historical research should be used to open up new-old possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is. Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these problems.
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. dt At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >Dear Anthony, > >I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be >said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. > >>However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used >>on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. >>Mace tells us about rotten strings: >>"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, >>but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of >>the decay of the string." >>This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help >>conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are >>often rotten). > >I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote >Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: >Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: >(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are >(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the >same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the >smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" >Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: >"But they are much more inferior strings than the other." >The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted >twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the >general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not >be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish >strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't >jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. > >>Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they >>call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- >>Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." >>So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from >>Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. > >Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather >"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences >between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my >arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't >use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean >only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the >most common meaning of this word). > >>Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time >>of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed >>theirs red. >>to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the >>speculation). > >The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark >you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But >they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are >hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace >describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red >commonly rotten". >Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are >several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my >observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; >sometimes green, very good." >If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why >he says the red strings were commonly rotten? >It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with >decay preventing. > >>There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like >>loading. >>On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a >>lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might >>well be a loaded 7c-D. >>http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 > >The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red >bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet. > >>Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is >>loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative >>thinness. >>http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo > >Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the >bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian >traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the >other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now. > >>I think historical research should be used to open up new-old >>possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other >>personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. > >Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is. > >>Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if >>every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these >>problems. >>How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and texture, >>if players personal research come up with varied solutions. >>That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to basses, >>while Satoh and
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Hear, hear! The loaded string is still a hypothesis, a working one, but hypothesis. Sometimes in detriment of the others, forgotten or neglected. alexander On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:08:43 -0800 "damian dlugolecki" wrote: > Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to > support a historical > premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color > theory that supposes that > reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not > privy to the stringmakers > craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't > be blamed for > being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is > the natural color for > strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, > that is to say, only > mild soaps and of course soda ash. > > I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the > commentary about color, the > majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. > In a fourchette or > production run you might have a variance in color from pale > ochre to burnt umbre. > > I hope this information helps you in your research. > > Cordially, > > Damian > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. I would venture to add that, notwithstanding all the commentary about color, the majority of the historical strings were a reddish brown color. In a fourchette or production run you might have a variance in color from pale ochre to burnt umbre. I hope this information helps you in your research. Cordially, Damian From: "Anthony Hind" To: "Jaroslaw Lipski" ; "alexander" ; "Monica Hall" ; "lute List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Dear Jaroslaw and All If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's trade mark. Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list). http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, '' salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments". In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took place. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown). A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker (according to Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm) However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the artist is not just sketching-in the strings. Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the frets, for example; so why would the painter have just sketched the bass string? Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Caravaggio with slightly different colours: http://tinyurl.com/cbsjac I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical correctness (for its own sake), but to resolve the problems (ancient and modern) inherent in using gut for each voice (Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by specific chemical treatment, twisting, twining and loading techniques, so as to obtain a homogenous passage accross the voices, to avoid the inharmonicity of thicker Meane strings and lower octaves, and to resolve the contradictiory need for short trebles and very long basses (either by loading, or by using extensions for the basses, or a combination of the two). And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones as much as
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Jaroslaw I will begin by the end: I have to stress here, that I am not against loaded strings even if it may sound paradoxicaly. I admire Mimmo's great contribution in finding the best strings for a modern lute player. I use his strings very often and will advice them to other musicians as well. The only difference between our attitude is the reason for doing so. Assuming that if one day it definitely occurs that from historical point of view there is no such a thing as loaded strings ,will you take them off your lute and throw away? I won't, because if I choose something it means that I like it best! What I am trying to say is that in strugling to be HIP one can forget the most important thing, namely the Music. This is our obligation as early musicians to search the truth about the past. As somebody posted recently "the theorbo is made of dreams" I would add "so is the Music". And will use any means to attain this including strings. I love pure gut on my renaissance lute, it's feeling and tone, but am open much more to experiment with the baroque lute stringing (as Miguel Serdoura, Nigel North and many others do). I entirely agree with you, and I don't think our attitude is all that different. if I was so pleased to be able to use Mimmo's loaded strings (as I did say below) it was to solve a modern problem that also happens to have been an ancient one, just because the properties of gut have not changed. I like the homogenous sound of all gut at least up to French Baroque lute music. In this respect, Mimmo's loaded strings came as such a relief, I really did not want to use wirewounds, because I don't like the break in sound as you move across the voices, and I don't like the silver shimmer. This may or may not be a historical preference, but even the brightness from Gimped strings does bother me, but I would have used them rather than resort to wirewounds, even though these have made progress (see the Aquila DE type, a fall-out from Mimmo's loaded string research, I believe). Probably the most important aims in Mimmo's historic research is trying to rediscover the tonal qualities that early string treatments may have given to gut strings, not bringing back the exact replica of an early string (as some seem to regret when mentioning lead oxide loadeds). Some of these qualities can also be transferred to synthetic strings so that the palette of choices for the lutenist, HIP or not, becomes much greater. I believe it must be up to the lutenist (and perhaps his audience) just exactly what string choices, hand positions, etc are best for them. I don't believe in historical correctness per se, as I made it quite clear, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg27987.html I also recognize that HIP strings, HIP hand position (according to the iconography) are nothing without a thorough knowledge of the grammar of rhetoric (if we are talking of French Baroque music) and above all a good ear, or rather to quote Jerzy Zak, "a player needs a good ear and a complex musical inteligence which guides him how to get the most from his instrument (when he picks up another instrument he may find that another method or place to place his fingers is better). An instantanous feed-back is a pre condition" As to the colour question, it is fairly secondary. Although, everyone would like to be able to see and hold old loaded string, and so paintings seem somehow better than indirect arguments from small bass string holes (with simmultaneous short string lengths), but of course the latter are much more convincing. And in short, as I have said several times before, if loaded strings were not historic, how grateful would Charles Mouton have been to throw away the massive bass strings, which he would have grudgingly had to use on his short Baroque lute, at least as grateful as I was to Mimmo not to have had to use wirewounds; but Charles would not even have had those to fall-back on. As to the question of red being good or bad, Mace is ambiguous. He mentions the quality of Red pistoys, but presumably red may not have been a good sign in all types of gut. Some plain gut is reddish, and this may be what he is referring to. Loading would definitely conserve strings better, they absorb less humidity, as you can observe when using Mimmo's loaded strings. Dyeing and loading, are a different concept to us, but colouring leather is both loading and dyeing, and to the observer who does not know which process has been used, it is difficult to distinguish the two. For example, I am not sure why Mimmo's loaded strings are now reddish and not brownish. It could be a difference in loading or in dyeing, or both. I entirely agree with your conclusion: Well, our possition is very strange, because the Old Ones never played early music (they always played something new), so in imi
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Anthony, I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: (Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are (generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: "But they are much more inferior strings than the other." The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather "commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the most common meaning of this word). Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red commonly rotten". Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; sometimes green, very good." If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why he says the red strings were commonly rotten? It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with decay preventing. There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet. Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now. I think historical research should be used to open up new-old possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is. Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these problems. How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and texture, if players personal research come up with varied solutions. That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to basses, while Satoh and others develop their low tension hypothesis, will, I hope, result in less standardization, not more. Even if Gimped strings were not around at that time (French Baroque), and low tension strings do
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Jaroslaw and All >If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must > have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration > differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's > trade mark. Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list). http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, '' salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments". In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took place. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown). A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker (according to Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm) However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the artist is not just sketching-in the strings. Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the frets, for example; so why would the painter have just sketched the bass string? Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Caravaggio with slightly different colours: http://tinyurl.com/cbsjac >> I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical >> correctness (for its own sake), but to resolve the problems >> (ancient and modern) inherent in using gut for each voice >> (Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by specific chemical treatment, >> twisting, twining and loading techniques, so as to obtain a >> homogenous passage accross the voices, to avoid the inharmonicity >> of thicker Meane strings and lower octaves, and to resolve the >> contradictiory need for short trebles and very long basses >> (either by loading, or by using extensions for the basses, or a >> combination of the two). > > And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones as much > as possible, but than I'd like to choose my own way. I think historical research should be used to open up new-old possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. Indeed, at first, it was just a modern problem I was trying to solve when I adopted Venices on 5c and 4c to eliminate a break in the flow across the "Meanes" on my 7c lute (caused by having a Lyons on 5c and a simple HT on 4c). I had no idea at that point, that Dowland and Mace had "defined" such a category as "Meanes" for which the same string type should be used. Later I realized that I had just redisocovered it for myself. Then on ordering an 11c lute, I was made aware of the modern severe 'intonation" problems that I was told would not fail to occur if I adopted pure gut basses, on a Baroque lute. I was warned by many to adopt some sort of wirewound or a very very long string length (not really suitable for French Baroque). Gimped strings seemed the only way out, if I wanted to use gut, until Mimmo's loaded string
