[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute Kit

[Sterling Price]

I figured it was something like that. Is there anything it know about exactly 
how much to take off the neck block?
Sterling

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 29, 2015, at 7:23 AM, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2015, 14:21
   Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute Kit
   Hi Sterling,
   It was usually a new, wider, slightly longer neck and normally an extra
   fret so there are nine tied frets; a longer pegbox to accommodate 19
   strings and of course a wider bridge.  The same barring and so on would
   be fine as long as it's not very skimpy.  If the neck block is too
   small for the wider neck it can be beefed up by gluing an extra layer
   on the inside.
   Bill
 __
 
   From: sterling price spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   To: Lute Builder lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2015, 0:37
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute Kit
 Hi all-
 I just completed the 8-course lute kit from The Early Music Shop. I
 used better brace material and hide glue. It turned out great and I
 want to make another one as a 10-course. Question--historically what
 was involved in making a ten course from a 7-8 course lute?
 --Sterling
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?

[William Samson]

   I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes across
   a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or
   perhaps they have all decayed/rotted?

   Still, interesting views are being expressed.  I suppose what we should
   all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our own
   ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us.  In all
   probability it will be different from what was admired at the time, but
   short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about
   finding out how it actually did sound back then.  I'd bet, though, that
   it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears.

   Bill
   From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Lute builder Dmth lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone
   to rot according to Mace?
 When you write  'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured
 strings on the basses of lutes...',  what do you mean by
 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so
 precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?;
   better
 than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what?
 And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and
 historical record?
 MH
 --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [1]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote:
   From: Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
   To: [3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45
 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical
 stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no
 evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings
 on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a
 technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too
 late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way
   to
 get credible information about musical instruments anyway.
 Shaun Ng
 0426240 775 | [1][7]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com
 On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][8]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
  Dear Anthony,
 
  Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said
 before, the
  change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems,
   and
 then
  traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer
 messages.
  I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long.
  You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I
   will
 try to
  address them separately.
 
  ROTTEN GUT
 
  Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I
 am
  afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut
 strings.
  Just one example:
 
  for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY
   of
 the
  string
 
  The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of
 Music's
  Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This
 can't be
  coincidental.
  Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that
 decay
  process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons,
   namely:
 1/
  none of us saw a rotting gut  2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric
 man
  thence unreliable source of historical information.
  I would like to challenge both of these notions.
 
  1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance
 so if
  unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings
   are
 very
  well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times
 gut was
  treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch
   Allum
 (as
  Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string
  manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity
   very
 easily
  during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume.
   The
 porous
  structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string
 makes it
  even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate
   conditions
 that
  people were used to live in an average English household in 17c.
 (maybe
  excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not
 difficult
  to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a
 central
  heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In
 that
  light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and
 even his
  amusing remark to wrap it in 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Bill,

   I meant to send the email to the lute list but pressed the wrong button
   - I've rectified this now.

   As you say it's unlikely we'll know for absolute certain - but I think
   we can be pretty sure (95%+?) that before 1660 wire wounds were unknown
   (tho' of course, twisted/braided wire was used for wire strung
   instrument basses since the 16th century) and so paintings showing
   coloured basses represent simple colouring effects or something else:
   loading perhaps. Because of the limitation of string diameters on some
   original bridges (and shown in some of the clearer paintings) I favour
   denser basses which implies loaded strings. But they may have been
   happy with a rubber band feel in the bass even when plucked at the
   bridge - tho clearly there was an awareness that basses might be too
   weak (hence theorbos etc) No need to go over the story again here
   but its more a matter of the weight of evidence rather than a
   categorical proof - ie more civil court than criminal court burden of
   proof.

   So I don't think we need be so pessimistic as to think  'In
   all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time'
   since the weight of evidence does indicate much.  And this is the
   history of such research - incremental steps.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 28/11/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys
 prone to rot according to Mace?
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute builder
 Dmth lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 11:38

  I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes
   across
  a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or
  perhaps they have all decayed/rotted?
  Still, interesting views are being expressed.  I suppose what we
   should
  all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our
   own
  ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us.  In all
  probability it will be different from what was admired at the time,
   but
  short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about
  finding out how it actually did sound back then.  I'd bet, though,
   that
  it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears.
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Lute builder Dmth [2]lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57
  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys
   prone
  to rot according to Mace?
When you write  'The better explanation for seemingly thin,
   coloured
strings on the basses of lutes...',  what do you mean by
'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so
precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?;
  better
than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than
   what?
And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and
historical record?
MH
--- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [1][3]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote:
  From: Shaun Ng [2][4]shaunk...@gmail.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
  To: [3][5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [4][6]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
  Cc: [5][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [6][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45
Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical
stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no
evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured
   strings
on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a
technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit
   too
late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good
   way
  to
get credible information about musical instruments anyway.
Shaun Ng
0426240 775 | [1][7][9]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com
On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][8][10]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 Dear Anthony,

 Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said
before, the
 change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems,
  and
then
 traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write
   longer
messages.
 I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too
   long.
 You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I
  will
try to
 address them separately.

 ROTTEN GUT

 Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings,
   however I
am
 afraid in this case Mace

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute Neck has risen

[Louis Aull]

Anthony,

That is a lot of movement. If the neck itself has not warped, then the ribs
below the attachment to the neck block have. The dome shape of the ribs will
not distort unless the ribs are very thin (1.2 mm for instance). Look
carefully at the shape of the ribs just behind the neck block. If that area
has sunken in any, that is your problem. If a straight edge reveals that the
neck has warped, that is your problem. Also, if the soundboard is thin, it
can distort in front and behind the bridge. The cheap fix is to shave off
the fingerboard and put a tapered fingerboard on in its place, the problem
will continue until the shell begins to crack or the neck becomes unplayable
again. The correct fix would involve opening it up and rebuilding it. 

Good luck.


Louis Aull
Atlanta

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Anthony Hart
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 10:36 AM
To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute Neck has risen

   I have a 14c. liuto atiorbatto where the neck has risen (I have nearly
   10mm at the ninth fret. do not believe the instrument has had any
   damage as such. Is there any suggestions of a remedy (without opening
   it up)? There is no lute makers in the area and a local keyboard maker
   is reluctant to touch it.

   Any suggestions welcome

   Thanks

   Anthony
   --
   __
   Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
   Musicologist and Independent Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
   Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.
   e-mail: [1]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
   [2]www.monsignor-reggio.com
   STOP PRESS: My new book, 'Concertini per Quattro Voci' has just been
   published. Go to [3]www.monsignor-reggio.com/Concertini-book.html
   for information and special offer

   --

References

   1. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   2. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   3. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/Concertini-book.html


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute Neck has risen

[Arthur Robb]

Hello,

Now this may be an obvious thing to say, but Anthony, please check very 
carefully that the neck to body join has not separated.

All the best,

Art

 Anthony,
 
 That is a lot of movement. If the neck itself has not warped, then the ribs
 below the attachment to the neck block have. The dome shape of the ribs will
 not distort unless the ribs are very thin (1.2 mm for instance). Look
 carefully at the shape of the ribs just behind the neck block. If that area
 has sunken in any, that is your problem. If a straight edge reveals that the
 neck has warped, that is your problem. Also, if the soundboard is thin, it
 can distort in front and behind the bridge. The cheap fix is to shave off
 the fingerboard and put a tapered fingerboard on in its place, the problem
 will continue until the shell begins to crack or the neck becomes unplayable
 again. The correct fix would involve opening it up and rebuilding it. 
 
 Good luck.
 
 
 Louis Aull
 Atlanta
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
 Of Anthony Hart
 Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 10:36 AM
 To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute Neck has risen
 
   I have a 14c. liuto atiorbatto where the neck has risen (I have nearly
   10mm at the ninth fret. do not believe the instrument has had any
   damage as such. Is there any suggestions of a remedy (without opening
   it up)? There is no lute makers in the area and a local keyboard maker
   is reluctant to touch it.
 
   Any suggestions welcome
 
   Thanks
 
   Anthony
   --
   __
   Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
   Musicologist and Independent Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
   Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.
   e-mail: [1]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
   [2]www.monsignor-reggio.com
   STOP PRESS: My new book, 'Concertini per Quattro Voci' has just been
   published. Go to [3]www.monsignor-reggio.com/Concertini-book.html
   for information and special offer
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   2. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   3. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/Concertini-book.html
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

Arthur Robb - Luthier
a...@art-robb.co.uk
www.art-robb.co.uk

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: [LUTE-BUILDER]

[Michael]

   I have two questions -both related to Robert Lundberg's book on Historical 
 Lute Construction
   First.  In his Practicum 1, he shows the steps to making a lute mould.  The 
 last photo in this chapter shows a mould completely smooth and rounded.

I think there's an intro to Lundberg's book (I could be conflating it
with something I read on this list) where someone who had first-person
experience seeing the way Lundberg made lutes commented that what they
had seen was different from what was being put into the book.

I think it's important to note that Lundberg's book is titled
Historical Lute Construction, not How I Make Lutes.  I believe
that sometimes he was showing us what he thought the historical
builders did, other times he was showing us what works.  His untimely
death left the book in a mishmash of those states, which the people at
GAL did a damn fine job of editing into a useful book.  But again,
that book is not titled Do These Things To Make A Lute.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute/vihuela action....

[Rob Dorsey]

Kerry,

What probably happened is that the repairman took too much body wood off
when removing the soundboard. Yes, I know that none should have been removed
but if it was done awkwardly some of the side may have split and the body
had to be planed smooth, in the repairman's view.

The options, as I see it without seeing the instrument, would be: to make a
new bridge with a bit more string clearance, or, saw a fine kerf cut into
the neck/block joint and splint it to slightly raise the neck angle, or,
relieve the fingerboard as you mentioned with a scraper preferably a scraper
plane to maintain the lines of the fingerboard. Personally, I like the new
bridge method as it attacks the disease, not the symptom. Your fingerboard
method would be second.

Best of Luck,
Rob Dorsey
http://LuteCraft.com

-Original Message-
From: Kerry Alt [mailto:ke...@nmsu.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:26 PM
To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute/vihuela action

Hello all,

I'm a newbie to lute construction but I have built a couple of modern
guitars. I'm in the dark about a lute builder's approach to setting the neck
angle relative to the soundboard. I've seen contradicting info re.
fingerboard relief vs. different fret sizes. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

My specific problem is an old vihuela that I sent out for a top re-bracing a
few years ago. It came back unplayable as the first course sits on the 7th
fret when notes on the 1st and 2nd frets are played. I put it in the closet
in frustration, but am now in the mood to play it again. From my guitar
building, my first inclination is to take out a cabinet scraper and put some
relief in the fingerboard (like I do on
guitars) but I'm wondering what you pros do?

Hope this isn't too elementary an issue; this is a great group!

Best,

-Kerry

--

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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[Mike Madden]

   Rob

   I have checked out your website.  Great philosophy - and your workshop
   is something I can only dream about; it looks fantastic!

   I am an amateur maker, like you were, with just a few lutes under my
   belt.  I am restoring a ren 10 course, and want to try something new,
   and would appreciate a few tips:

   First, I want to add one of those 'heart'/'spade'-shaped inlay designs
   at the bottom end of the soundboard.  They are a common feature, and I
   have a vague idea of how to do this but a couple tips would be useful.
   I have some 0.8mm ebony veneer, so presume this will be ideal?  Main
   question is how I can cut out the recess on an already thin
   soundboard.  I am determined to have a go, but do not want to trash the
   soundboard now that it is fitted!

   Secondly, I want to retrofit a treble string, single mini-riser on the
   peg box.  The neck and pegbox are fitted and the pegbox has a solid
   back.  Is there a simple and reasonably elegant way to retrofit
   something like this without it looking like it was made using cereal
   packets?

   I hope you or some of the other forum members can help.

   Cheers

   Mike

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:33:00 -0500
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: r...@dorseymail.com
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
   
Just remember to not try to get the ribs to final thickness before
assembly of the body. Final thickness - and note, rib thickness is
   not
all that important, it will play fine with a paper mache body, I
   know,
I did it - is actually achieved after the body is glued up through
scraping of the interior and sanding/scraping of the outside.
   
   
   
Rob Dorsey
   
[1]http://LuteCraft.com
__
   
From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:00 AM
To: Rob Dorsey; Lute builder Dmth
Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
   
   
   
If you don't have a thickness sander (the Old Ones didn't either, so
don't worry) simply clamp one end onto your flat bench top, and using
   a
small plane (I use a low angle one-handed plane), plane to the
   required
thickness (ie to allow some trimming and shaping on the mould). For
rippled sycamore and other cross-grained woods plane at right angles
(or thereabouts - you'll find the best angle by trial) to the
   direction
of grain (ie across the width) using an old dummy rib tacked to the
flat surface as an edge stop. Finish, of course, with a scraper.
   
MH
--- On Mon, 26/1/09, Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com wrote:
   
From: Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
To: 'robert fallis' robert.fal...@virgin.net, 'Jon Murphy'
j...@murphsays.com, lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu, 'Brod Mac'
in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com
Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 2:32 PM
I use a bandsaw to resaw the stock to approximate thickness (about
   3.5mm)
and then a thickness sander to take it down to 1.8mm. The biggest
   mistake an
amateur makes in rib thicknessing is to make the too thin. They bend
   nicely
but you have left no meat on the rib for scraping, sanding and edge
corrections. For start leave them at 2.0mm until you have a number of
   lutes
under your belt.
   
Rob Dorsey
http://LuteCraft.com
   
-Original Message-
From: robert fallis [mailto:robert.fal...@virgin.net]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:43 AM
To: Jon Murphy; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Brod Mac
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
   
   
 For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the
 Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner
Saf-T-Planer - both
 on the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a
 cabinet scraper -
   
one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good
   face on
the rib blank.
then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply
   wood,
mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood, it's planing 2mm thick
   bits
of
wood that the planer won't do.. then plane that till it is nearer the
thickness you want and finish with a scraper..
   
bob
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
   
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
   
   
   
--
   
References
   
1. http://LuteCraft.com/
   
 __

   Share your photos with Windows Live Photos Free [1]Find out more! --

References

   1. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[robert fallis]

For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the  
Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner Saf-T-Planer - both on  
the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a cabinet  
scraper -


one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good face on  
the rib blank.
then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply wood,  
mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood,
it's planing 2mm thick bits of wood that the planer won't do.. then plane  
that till it is nearer the thickness you want

and finish with a scraper..

bob
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[Rob Dorsey]

I use a bandsaw to resaw the stock to approximate thickness (about 3.5mm)
and then a thickness sander to take it down to 1.8mm. The biggest mistake an
amateur makes in rib thicknessing is to make the too thin. They bend nicely
but you have left no meat on the rib for scraping, sanding and edge
corrections. For start leave them at 2.0mm until you have a number of lutes
under your belt.

Rob Dorsey
http://LuteCraft.com 

-Original Message-
From: robert fallis [mailto:robert.fal...@virgin.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:43 AM
To: Jon Murphy; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Brod Mac
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute


 For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the 
 Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner Saf-T-Planer - both 
 on the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a 
 cabinet scraper -

one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good face on
the rib blank.
then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply wood,
mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood, it's planing 2mm thick bits of
wood that the planer won't do.. then plane that till it is nearer the
thickness you want and finish with a scraper..

bob
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[Martyn Hodgson]

   If you don't have a thickness sander (the Old Ones didn't either,  so
   don't worry) simply clamp one end onto your flat bench top, and using a
   small plane (I use a low angle one-handed plane), plane to the required
   thickness (ie to allow some trimming and shaping on the mould). For
   rippled sycamore and other cross-grained woods plane at right angles
   (or thereabouts - you'll find the best angle by trial) to the direction
   of grain (ie across the width) using an old dummy rib tacked to the
   flat surface as an edge stop. Finish, of course, with a scraper.

   MH
   --- On Mon, 26/1/09, Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com wrote:

 From: Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
 To: 'robert fallis' robert.fal...@virgin.net, 'Jon Murphy'
 j...@murphsays.com, lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu, 'Brod Mac'
 in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com
 Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 2:32 PM
I use a bandsaw to resaw the stock to approximate thickness (about 3.5mm)
and then a thickness sander to take it down to 1.8mm. The biggest mistake an
amateur makes in rib thicknessing is to make the too thin. They bend nicely
but you have left no meat on the rib for scraping, sanding and edge
corrections. For start leave them at 2.0mm until you have a number of lutes
under your belt.

Rob Dorsey
http://LuteCraft.com

-Original Message-
From: robert fallis [mailto:robert.fal...@virgin.net]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:43 AM
To: Jon Murphy; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Brod Mac
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute


 For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the
 Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner
Saf-T-Planer - both
 on the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a
 cabinet scraper -

one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good face on
the rib blank.
then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply wood,
mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood, it's planing 2mm thick bits
of
wood that the planer won't do.. then plane that till it is nearer the
thickness you want and finish with a scraper..

bob
--
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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[Rob Dorsey]

   Just remember to not try to get the ribs to final thickness before
   assembly of the body. Final thickness - and note, rib thickness is not
   all that important, it will play fine with a paper mache body, I know,
   I did it - is actually achieved after the body is glued up through
   scraping of the interior and sanding/scraping of the outside.



   Rob Dorsey

   [1]http://LuteCraft.com
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:00 AM
   To: Rob Dorsey; Lute builder Dmth
   Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute



   If you don't have a thickness sander (the Old Ones didn't either,  so
   don't worry) simply clamp one end onto your flat bench top, and using a
   small plane (I use a low angle one-handed plane), plane to the required
   thickness (ie to allow some trimming and shaping on the mould). For
   rippled sycamore and other cross-grained woods plane at right angles
   (or thereabouts - you'll find the best angle by trial) to the direction
   of grain (ie across the width) using an old dummy rib tacked to the
   flat surface as an edge stop. Finish, of course, with a scraper.

   MH
   --- On Mon, 26/1/09, Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com wrote:

 From: Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
 To: 'robert fallis' robert.fal...@virgin.net, 'Jon Murphy'
 j...@murphsays.com, lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu, 'Brod Mac'
 in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com
 Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 2:32 PM
I use a bandsaw to resaw the stock to approximate thickness (about 3.5mm)
and then a thickness sander to take it down to 1.8mm. The biggest mistake an
amateur makes in rib thicknessing is to make the too thin. They bend nicely
but you have left no meat on the rib for scraping, sanding and edge
corrections. For start leave them at 2.0mm until you have a number of lutes
under your belt.

Rob Dorsey
http://LuteCraft.com

-Original Message-
From: robert fallis [mailto:robert.fal...@virgin.net]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:43 AM
To: Jon Murphy; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Brod Mac
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute


 For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the
 Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner
Saf-T-Planer - both
 on the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a
 cabinet scraper -

one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good face on
the rib blank.
then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply wood,
mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood, it's planing 2mm thick bits
of
wood that the planer won't do.. then plane that till it is nearer the
thickness you want and finish with a scraper..

bob
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




   --

References

   1. http://LuteCraft.com/

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[demery]

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009, Brod Mac in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com said:

hello, everyone
 
what would be the most difficult part of building a six course lute.

I think that varys for each of us.  

The bowl is certainly one major challenge, getting the ribs to thickness;
bending them to about the right shape without singing the wood (or your
self); getting just the right angle on each edge as well as making it fit
its partner; glueing it up ... lots of fiddly work there.

Another issue is lining up the neck with the body so that the action works
out and the strings end up over the fingerboard ... - getting the angles
right on the neckblock and heel of the neck while also having a good glue
joint.  A good assembly jig helps here, but you also have to anticipate
the bending moment of the strings.

Third challenge is thicknessing the top, fitting and shaping ribs to it so
the assembly has a uniform frequency response and decent projection.

Fourth, carving the rose, shaping the bridge, decorativly carving the
pegbox sides and back, purfling, inlay and other decoration (much of which
should probably be defered until you have other basics down).

If you dont already have experience working with highly-figured woords
using hand-tools you will need to develop that as you work, both
sharpening skills and how to angle the plane/scraper/chisel/gouge to avoid
tear-out is what you need to master.

Thin stock is difficult to work with.  DOuble-sided sticky tape, vacuum
table hold-downs, neither were used by historical luthiers, but both are
used today.  Two thick boards of not exactly the same thickness can be
fastened to your workbench to act as a long bench-stop.  Many other jigs
can be improvised, all can have difficulty when working with thin stuff
that wants to curl or is otherwise ornery.

Sandpaper as we know and use it was invented fairly recently; natural
substances with abrasive propertys (sharkskin, sawgrass, leather and felt
loaded with loose grits) were used, but more for polishing than stock
removal.  Cabinet scrapers are less used today than sandpaper, but were
much used historically, especially for moulding and other small work
(scratch stocks for example).

Planes arent always held in the hand whe used, coopers formed the edges of
barrel and bucket staves on a long bodyed plane that was fixed with its
iron face up, the work was drawn along the body to take a shaving, and
could be rocked to make a long sweeping curve.  Smaller planes can be
clamped sideways to the workbench for edge jointing.

A solid-body mould with facets carved/scraped/planed onto it can be used
to guide files/planes that edge each stave in place on the mould; the
mould can also help you to acheive correct edges when the staves have
complex curves (as many bodies will require, shallow or deep non-circular
sectioned bowls for example).

Lots of material to be read up on in the Galpin Society Journal, the
Journal of the Lute Society, the Journal of the Lute Society of America
(and other lute societys), FoMRHI, Early Music, Robert Lundbergs book on
Historical Lute Construction, Douglas Alton Smiths book on the History of
the Lute.

Welcome, and good luck!
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[Timothy Motz]

Oh, it's all challenging.  That's the fun.  But much of it becomes  
less challenging with practice.


One tip I found out on my second lute is that it might be more  
tedious to make a bowl with 11 or more ribs, but it's easier to fit  
them.  My first lute had 9 ribs and it was harder than heck to get  
everything to join up nicely.  With 11 ribs, the job becomes much  
easier.


Tim

On Jan 26, 2009, at 1:37 AM, Brod Mac wrote:


   hello, everyone

   what would be the most difficult part of building a six course  
lute. I

   have an extensive wood shop. such as thickness planer, table saw,
   jointer, bandsaw, hand planner and alot of other hand/power tools.
   also, does one cut the bowl staves with a bandsaw?
  
__


   How fun is this? [1]IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got  
better.

   --

References

   1. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx


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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute

[Jon Murphy]

Brod,

I think the most difficult part is getting started, my eight course has been 
in progress for three years (no work on it for the last two due to moving 
and a minor medical problem, the removal of a leg). I intend to get back to 
it shortly. I have the ribs (bowl staves) made to thickness - I'd suggest 
that the thickness planer might be a bit rough for the finishing cut, but 
the experienced luthiers on the list will probably answer that. There are 
several books/CDs on the topic - David van Edwards and the late (it is in my 
bookshelf, but the name forgotten and I can't get to the bookshelf as I type 
as I've taken my prosthetic leg off). Both seem to advocate an oversize 
bandsaw cut of the ribs, then a planing to fit. Van Edwards gives you 
templates in his package, but you should be able to draw them out if you 
have a talent for 3D fitting. The mold, which can be skeletal or solid, is 
your guide (I do have that made). It is not difficult, but it is exacting as 
it will shape the body.


For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the 
Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner Saf-T-Planer - both on the 
drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a cabinet scraper - 
but the more experienced will comment on that, I only write this so as to 
get their input when I restart my project. The Luthier's friend is a bit 
expensive for what it is, but it does thickness exactly although leaving a 
surface that has to be skinned. The Wagner involves making a jig, but 
leaves a nice surface.


This for what it is worth, ask me again in a year.

Best, Jon

- Original Message - 
From: Brod Mac in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com

To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:37 AM
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute



  hello, everyone

  what would be the most difficult part of building a six course lute. I
  have an extensive wood shop. such as thickness planer, table saw,
  jointer, bandsaw, hand planner and alot of other hand/power tools.
  also, does one cut the bowl staves with a bandsaw?
__

  How fun is this? [1]IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better.
  --

References

  1. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[Jon Murphy]

Duncan,

You have already received your answer, but may I add to it. Any shape can be 
drawn with a compass and a ruler, given enough time and effort you could 
draw the complex curves (both convex and concave) of a cove on the coast of 
New England (or Old England, or anywhere else). The modern discipline known 
as fractal geometry says that all things are angles, but the ancient 
science of geometry saw curves. Angles are more accurate, if one gets to the 
molecular level, but curves are more likely when dealing with gravitational 
space.


That said, and it was really meant as a teaser, a straight line is but the 
tangent of curves that intersect closely. The solution in integral calculus 
as the differences get smaller. The cove may be defined by the larger points 
of land, or the smaller, and then the smaller. The final most definitive 
result could be mapping each grain of sand in each segment of the beach - a 
bit of a problem as the tide ebbs and flows.


The smooth, yet changing, curve of the lute body can be mapped by a compass 
with a progression of centers and diameters. As you continually reduce the 
distance between centers and adjust the radius you will end up with a 
perfect smooth curve (to the extent your eye can perceive it). But you will 
have wasted a hell of a lot of time. The French may not be the best 
physicists, but the French curve is an example smoothing a more general 
shape into a smooth curve by using its differential radii.


By all means do as David V.E. says, but then try a bit of an exercise. Draw 
a floor plan of the Parthenon with a straight edge and a compass (you will 
want a ruler to set the proportion of length to width to the golden mean 
initially). A straight line is merely the end result of endlessly repeated 
arcs with the same radius and centered on an original line. A curve is a 
series of straight lines connecting extremely closely spaced arcs of 
different radii. At the micro level a straight line doesn't exist, it is a 
projection of the average of the points.



Sorry guys, but I always like to go to the general when presented with the 
specific.


Best, Jon

- Original Message - 
From: Duncan Midwinter [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:50 AM
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...



Many thanks David, I've just ordered a copy of this!
---

On 05/02/2008, David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Dear Duncan,

There are several different systems.

I believe I was the first to realise this could be done and that it
was probably the basis of historical lute design in my (very) brief
article in The Lute Society Journal number 15 in 1973. (available via
their website http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/journal.htm) This would
certainly give you the outline of the method

Subsequently some historical lutes were analysed in versions of this
way by Kevin Coates in his book Geometry, Proportion and the Art of
Lutherie (1991)and by an addendum in Mark Lindley's book Lutes, Viols
and Temperaments (1984) (ISBN: 0521246709)

In fact of course I was not the first, that honour falls to Arnault
of Zwolle in about 1450 in his section on medieval lute design of his
manuscript now in Paris which was reproduced and discussed in an
article by Ian Harwood in The Lute Society Journal number 2 in 1960.
The manuscript has some problematic areas which I tried to address in
my talk to the Lute Society which is reprinted in their newsletter
number 69 (April 2004)

Best wishes,

David




At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote:
Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard
using
circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.

--
Duncan Midwinter

midwinterDesign creative website design
http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

--





--
Duncan Midwinter

midwinterDesign creative website design
http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

--

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[demery]

On Tue, Feb 5, 2008, Duncan Midwinter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:

 At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote:
 Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard
 using
 circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
 sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.

compass, dividers, straightedge are traditional drafting tools which were
certainly used in the renaissance.  A thin piece of wood (batten) is a
common way of making a smooth curve whose mathematical shape is, well,
probably best left to a mthematician to puzzle out.

The lines drawn on wood then must be realized using hand tools to
accomplish a mold or some template; the intended shape is not always
realized, but something good enough emerges, and is then used to guide the
lute body's construction, again, an approximation.

The human eye is a wonderful thing, sometimes its best to trust it and be
happy.
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[Duncan Midwinter]

Yes, I'm perfectly capable of doing this -- in fact that's how I've made all
my previous lutes -- my question was IS there a way to do this?
-- 

On 05/02/2008, alexandros tzimeros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just use your hand and eyes...

 -Original Message-
 From: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:37 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute body...

 Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard
 using
 circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
 sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.

 --
 Duncan Midwinter

 midwinterDesign creative website design
 http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

 --

 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[van Geest Gitaar Luitbouw]

Yes, there is a way, Most luteforms are build up from circles. There is a
section in Robert Lundberg's Historical Lute construction about this. You
can get it from stewmac.com or maybe even amazon.


Ernstjan van Geest - Luthier
van Geest Gitaar  Luitbouw - Hasselt, Belgium
www.vangeest.be
011 / 33.16.91

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Verzonden: dinsdag 5 februari 2008 9:00
Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Onderwerp: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

Yes, I'm perfectly capable of doing this -- in fact that's how I've made all
my previous lutes -- my question was IS there a way to do this?
-- 

On 05/02/2008, alexandros tzimeros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just use your hand and eyes...

 -Original Message-
 From: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:37 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute body...

 Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard
 using
 circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
 sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.

 --
 Duncan Midwinter

 midwinterDesign creative website design
 http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

 --

 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Duncan,

There are several different systems.

I believe I was the first to realise this could be done and that it 
was probably the basis of historical lute design in my (very) brief 
article in The Lute Society Journal number 15 in 1973. (available via 
their website http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/journal.htm) This would 
certainly give you the outline of the method

Subsequently some historical lutes were analysed in versions of this 
way by Kevin Coates in his book Geometry, Proportion and the Art of 
Lutherie (1991)and by an addendum in Mark Lindley's book Lutes, Viols 
and Temperaments (1984) (ISBN: 0521246709)

In fact of course I was not the first, that honour falls to Arnault 
of Zwolle in about 1450 in his section on medieval lute design of his 
manuscript now in Paris which was reproduced and discussed in an 
article by Ian Harwood in The Lute Society Journal number 2 in 1960. 
The manuscript has some problematic areas which I tried to address in 
my talk to the Lute Society which is reprinted in their newsletter 
number 69 (April 2004)

Best wishes,

David




At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote:
Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using
circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.

--
Duncan Midwinter

midwinterDesign creative website design
http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

--

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[Duncan Midwinter]

Many thanks David, I've just ordered a copy of this!
---

On 05/02/2008, David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Duncan,

 There are several different systems.

 I believe I was the first to realise this could be done and that it
 was probably the basis of historical lute design in my (very) brief
 article in The Lute Society Journal number 15 in 1973. (available via
 their website http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/journal.htm) This would
 certainly give you the outline of the method

 Subsequently some historical lutes were analysed in versions of this
 way by Kevin Coates in his book Geometry, Proportion and the Art of
 Lutherie (1991)and by an addendum in Mark Lindley's book Lutes, Viols
 and Temperaments (1984) (ISBN: 0521246709)

 In fact of course I was not the first, that honour falls to Arnault
 of Zwolle in about 1450 in his section on medieval lute design of his
 manuscript now in Paris which was reproduced and discussed in an
 article by Ian Harwood in The Lute Society Journal number 2 in 1960.
 The manuscript has some problematic areas which I tried to address in
 my talk to the Lute Society which is reprinted in their newsletter
 number 69 (April 2004)

 Best wishes,

 David




 At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote:
 Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard
 using
 circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
 sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.
 
 --
 Duncan Midwinter
 
 midwinterDesign creative website design
 http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


 --
 The Smokehouse,
 6 Whitwell Road,
 Norwich,  NR1 4HB
 England.

 Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

 --




-- 
Duncan Midwinter

midwinterDesign creative website design
http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

--

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...

[alexandros tzimeros]

Just use your hand and eyes...

-Original Message-
From: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute body...

Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using
circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different
sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite.

-- 
Duncan Midwinter

midwinterDesign creative website design
http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Jon Murphy]

 that it was half the price of the Lee Valley one, and 
twice the price of the rosewood one from Japan Woodworking. Actually I know 
what I'm going to do with it - but that gets back to making harps and 
psalteries. It is too easy to make a mistake making the recess for the 
soundboard, and for the sides and back, with a router. I'd rather work and 
fit, work and fit.


Enough for tonight, pardon the length of the message - but you should be 
used to Murph Says by now.


Best, Jon



- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction



Hi Dana,


You can find nice planes in
antique stores for about $25 or $30


--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on long island the price is much higher in any antique store, and most of
em would require serious work to be capable of making dust (rather than
gathering it).  Seems the interior decorators in these parts like old
tools for atmosphere.

Dana,
I think hand tools become decorator items when the decorators' clients no 
longer use tools.  I live in an industrial city where people use tools 
every day, so having one on your coffee table would just look like you 
were too lazy to put it back in the workshop.  People here would think it 
was a little weird.  I know of one guy whose last name is Stanley who has 
an antique Stanley plane on his mantle, but that's sort of a special case. 
I would have no trouble picking up a half-dozen old planes in decent 
condition for the prices I mentioned.  When I refer to antique stores, by 
the way, I'm talking about glorified flea markets where you can find 
everything from your parents travel souvenirs to cookware from 30 years 
ago.  I'm in the Midwest, where anything more than 50 years old seems to 
be considered an antique.  We don't have much in the way of real antiques 
around here.


Tim



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[tamotz]

Hi Dana,

 You can find nice planes in
 antique stores for about $25 or $30 

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on long island the price is much higher in any antique store, and most of
em would require serious work to be capable of making dust (rather than
gathering it).  Seems the interior decorators in these parts like old
tools for atmosphere.

Dana,
I think hand tools become decorator items when the decorators' clients no 
longer use tools.  I live in an industrial city where people use tools every 
day, so having one on your coffee table would just look like you were too lazy 
to put it back in the workshop.  People here would think it was a little weird. 
 I know of one guy whose last name is Stanley who has an antique Stanley plane 
on his mantle, but that's sort of a special case.  I would have no trouble 
picking up a half-dozen old planes in decent condition for the prices I 
mentioned.  When I refer to antique stores, by the way, I'm talking about 
glorified flea markets where you can find everything from your parents travel 
souvenirs to cookware from 30 years ago.  I'm in the Midwest, where anything 
more than 50 years old seems to be considered an antique.  We don't have much 
in the way of real antiques around here.

Tim



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Rob Dorsey]

Hi Dana and All,

With all respect for Dana's woodworking skills, which must be vast to build
pipe organs, I must disagree on the tools necessary to build lutes, even in
some quantity. My shop is currently a corner of our basement and measures
10'x8'. The only power tools I use are, a Delta 14 band saw (for general
sawing and re-sawing with a 1/2 wide blade), a table top drill press, a
corded and cordless drill, a disk sander and a dremmel tool. The one other
big power item is a Jet mini wood lathe for pegs. Everything else is done
with hand tools. I prefer to get my chisels from eBay since I can find
vintage socket chisels which make it easy to replace the handles. I sharpen
with Japanese water stones. I have a collection of small planes, several of
which I made for a specific task such as cutting the shelf for a binding on
a lute top. My most expensive hand tools are a couple from Lie Nielsen, a
small scraper plane and a low angle smoothing plane. Otherwise it's Stanley
all the way.

I built me first lute on a drafting table in my apartment in Portland. While
I did some of the work at Bob Lundeberg's shop I did most of it at home,
even carving the mould, making huge mess.

It's not so much the amount of equipment you can gather that makes the lute.
It's having the fire in your belly to do it and the guts to get about it.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 1:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction


Sorry all, I should have waited to reply, my previous posting was incomplete
because of time constraints.

To build from plans and use wood bought from commercial sources (rather than
as a kit) you will want access to a general woodworking shop - resawing
bandsaw, ordinary bandsaw, table saw, jointer, planer.  Many large cities
have woodworking clubs.  I build pipe organs for a living, and have
permission to use the shops tools for small home projects (I pay rent when
doing work for sale).  Sometimes you can find a medium or small size
cabinet/millwork shop that resells excess wood and does small-scale millwork
for a reasonable fee, or one that allows employees to earn tips for small
amounts of ad-hoc millwork on provided wood.  Do you and the shop the favor
of providing a sketch showing precisely what you want done; also, be careful
not to impose, friday at closing is not the best time, tho a half hour
earlier may have been ideal.

For soundboard tuning you want cabinet scrapers and small planes,
spokeshaves, and gouges, look to the ample violin making literature for
details on use.

Sharpening equipment for all your tools, and a reference book for sharpening
angles (in metals) which you will augment for the woods you use.  A plate of
glass plus wet/dry paper (scary-sharp system), traditional european oil
stones, traditional japanese water stones, each of these systems has some
advantage, and there are machines one can invest in to help with precision
and speed.  Dont assume any tool fresh from the store is ready for use,
plane soles are ground flat, but may have sprung, and usually are only sorta
flat; frogs need adjustment if not reshaping; irons and cap irons need
resharpening and honeing, then bedding.  

The proper cutting angle for a chisel/gouge varys according to the nature of
the wood to be worked.  Woods with diffuse small pores can tolerate a
stronger angled edge which will last longer (Maple, Apple..)  Softer woods
with larger pores (diffuse or not) will be more air than cellulose and need
a more acute cutting angle which is more fragile (pine, spruce..). 
Woods which are hard in places but also have rings of large pores (Jatoba,
Oak, Ash) are a compromise, some cuts will need one tool, others a different
one.  Ideally you should have double sets of tools, but that is costly.
Sometimes you must work with a tool not ideal but which will do the job with
care.  

Manufacturors will give you a compromise angle which may not suit the work
you intend.

Minimal kit is a concept that is difficult to establish, so much depends on
personal preference.  Plan to spend time at yard and estate sales, tools are
not always present, but when they are its often a good buy if only for the
steel.  Careful with complex pieces like a plain, often the sole will be
worn out or split (wooden body), perhaps the iron is not original and wrong,
perhaps a steeltipped iron has been oversharpened, perhaps a steel-bodied
plane is warped, dented, or badly rusted beyond redemption.  Still, old
Stanleys, Records, and Baileys are worth $15-20 for you to experiment on
tuning the plane up.  Wooden bodied planes are easy to fabricate, if you
have a usable iron, so even if the iron was wrong for the plane you have,
you can make something to use that iron.

A forge with anvils hammers and tongs is the ultimate tool, assuming you
have a country place, tolerant neighbors and firecode.  Most

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Timothy Motz]

 attachment so my pegs are reasonably  
uniform.


You really don't want to go the New Yankee Workshop route and buy  
thousands of dollars worth of tools just to see if you like  
lutherie.  Start small and modest and buy good quality tools as you  
develop your skills and can foresee a continued need for them.


If you go to Larry Brown's web site, you can see that he is working  
out of a pleasant room in his basement, and he's made something like  
1200 instruments.  So you don't need a big fancy shop to do quality  
work.


Tim


On Dec 8, 2007, at 3:06 PM, Rob Dorsey wrote:


Hi Dana and All,

With all respect for Dana's woodworking skills, which must be vast  
to build
pipe organs, I must disagree on the tools necessary to build lutes,  
even in
some quantity. My shop is currently a corner of our basement and  
measures
10'x8'. The only power tools I use are, a Delta 14 band saw (for  
general
sawing and re-sawing with a 1/2 wide blade), a table top drill  
press, a
corded and cordless drill, a disk sander and a dremmel tool. The  
one other
big power item is a Jet mini wood lathe for pegs. Everything else  
is done

with hand tools. I prefer to get my chisels from eBay since I can find
vintage socket chisels which make it easy to replace the handles. I  
sharpen
with Japanese water stones. I have a collection of small planes,  
several of
which I made for a specific task such as cutting the shelf for a  
binding on
a lute top. My most expensive hand tools are a couple from Lie  
Nielsen, a
small scraper plane and a low angle smoothing plane. Otherwise it's  
Stanley

all the way.

I built me first lute on a drafting table in my apartment in  
Portland. While
I did some of the work at Bob Lundeberg's shop I did most of it at  
home,

even carving the mould, making huge mess.

It's not so much the amount of equipment you can gather that makes  
the lute.
It's having the fire in your belly to do it and the guts to get  
about it.


Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 1:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction


Sorry all, I should have waited to reply, my previous posting was  
incomplete

because of time constraints.

To build from plans and use wood bought from commercial sources  
(rather than
as a kit) you will want access to a general woodworking shop -  
resawing
bandsaw, ordinary bandsaw, table saw, jointer, planer.  Many large  
cities

have woodworking clubs.  I build pipe organs for a living, and have
permission to use the shops tools for small home projects (I pay  
rent when

doing work for sale).  Sometimes you can find a medium or small size
cabinet/millwork shop that resells excess wood and does small-scale  
millwork
for a reasonable fee, or one that allows employees to earn tips for  
small
amounts of ad-hoc millwork on provided wood.  Do you and the shop  
the favor
of providing a sketch showing precisely what you want done; also,  
be careful

not to impose, friday at closing is not the best time, tho a half hour
earlier may have been ideal.

For soundboard tuning you want cabinet scrapers and small planes,
spokeshaves, and gouges, look to the ample violin making literature  
for

details on use.

Sharpening equipment for all your tools, and a reference book for  
sharpening
angles (in metals) which you will augment for the woods you use.  A  
plate of
glass plus wet/dry paper (scary-sharp system), traditional european  
oil
stones, traditional japanese water stones, each of these systems  
has some
advantage, and there are machines one can invest in to help with  
precision
and speed.  Dont assume any tool fresh from the store is ready for  
use,
plane soles are ground flat, but may have sprung, and usually are  
only sorta

flat; frogs need adjustment if not reshaping; irons and cap irons need
resharpening and honeing, then bedding.

The proper cutting angle for a chisel/gouge varys according to the  
nature of

the wood to be worked.  Woods with diffuse small pores can tolerate a
stronger angled edge which will last longer (Maple, Apple..)   
Softer woods
with larger pores (diffuse or not) will be more air than cellulose  
and need

a more acute cutting angle which is more fragile (pine, spruce..).
Woods which are hard in places but also have rings of large pores  
(Jatoba,
Oak, Ash) are a compromise, some cuts will need one tool, others a  
different
one.  Ideally you should have double sets of tools, but that is  
costly.
Sometimes you must work with a tool not ideal but which will do the  
job with

care.

Manufacturors will give you a compromise angle which may not suit  
the work

you intend.

Minimal kit is a concept that is difficult to establish, so much  
depends on
personal preference.  Plan to spend time at yard and estate sales,  
tools are
not always present, but when they are its often a good buy if only  
for the
steel.  Careful

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Bill Wall]

 condition and
 the price is favorable, go for it.

 For sharpening I am quite iconoclastic; I use emery wet-dry sandpaper
 on a marble tile.  You can find grits up to 2000 in the auto repair
 section of a DIY store; it's used between coats when repainting
 cars.  With a 2000 grit sandpaper you can get an edge so smooth it
 looks like it was polished.  Just put a little water on the tile and
 put the paper on top of it; the paper will stick and once you wet the
 sandpaper you can use it for sharpening.  If the sandpaper loads up,
 just toss it and get a new sheet.  I also cheat and use a honing
 guide.  I didn't bother much with sharpening when I was younger and
 doing home repair work, but once I got interested in lutherie I
 realized what a difference it made.

 The power tools I would hate to do without are the little band saw
 and the benchtop drill press.  With those in your shop and some basic
 hand tools, you can do almost anything needed in lutherie.  I have
 even resawed ribs with the little band saw, although it was a slow
 process because it is very under-powered.  If you are going to resaw
 on one of these, get a Timberwolf blade.  The benchtop lathe is handy
 too, but as I said above, at first you can buy pegs made by others.
 I splurged and got a duplicator attachment so my pegs are reasonably
 uniform.

 You really don't want to go the New Yankee Workshop route and buy
 thousands of dollars worth of tools just to see if you like
 lutherie.  Start small and modest and buy good quality tools as you
 develop your skills and can foresee a continued need for them.

 If you go to Larry Brown's web site, you can see that he is working
 out of a pleasant room in his basement, and he's made something like
 1200 instruments.  So you don't need a big fancy shop to do quality
 work.

 Tim


 On Dec 8, 2007, at 3:06 PM, Rob Dorsey wrote:

  Hi Dana and All,
 
  With all respect for Dana's woodworking skills, which must be vast
  to build
  pipe organs, I must disagree on the tools necessary to build lutes,
  even in
  some quantity. My shop is currently a corner of our basement and
  measures
  10'x8'. The only power tools I use are, a Delta 14 band saw (for
  general
  sawing and re-sawing with a 1/2 wide blade), a table top drill
  press, a
  corded and cordless drill, a disk sander and a dremmel tool. The
  one other
  big power item is a Jet mini wood lathe for pegs. Everything else
  is done
  with hand tools. I prefer to get my chisels from eBay since I can find
  vintage socket chisels which make it easy to replace the handles. I
  sharpen
  with Japanese water stones. I have a collection of small planes,
  several of
  which I made for a specific task such as cutting the shelf for a
  binding on
  a lute top. My most expensive hand tools are a couple from Lie
  Nielsen, a
  small scraper plane and a low angle smoothing plane. Otherwise it's
  Stanley
  all the way.
 
  I built me first lute on a drafting table in my apartment in
  Portland. While
  I did some of the work at Bob Lundeberg's shop I did most of it at
  home,
  even carving the mould, making huge mess.
 
  It's not so much the amount of equipment you can gather that makes
  the lute.
  It's having the fire in your belly to do it and the guts to get
  about it.
 
  Best,
  Rob Dorsey
  http://RobDorsey.com
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 1:57 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction
 
 
  Sorry all, I should have waited to reply, my previous posting was
  incomplete
  because of time constraints.
 
  To build from plans and use wood bought from commercial sources
  (rather than
  as a kit) you will want access to a general woodworking shop -
  resawing
  bandsaw, ordinary bandsaw, table saw, jointer, planer.  Many large
  cities
  have woodworking clubs.  I build pipe organs for a living, and have
  permission to use the shops tools for small home projects (I pay
  rent when
  doing work for sale).  Sometimes you can find a medium or small size
  cabinet/millwork shop that resells excess wood and does small-scale
  millwork
  for a reasonable fee, or one that allows employees to earn tips for
  small
  amounts of ad-hoc millwork on provided wood.  Do you and the shop
  the favor
  of providing a sketch showing precisely what you want done; also,
  be careful
  not to impose, friday at closing is not the best time, tho a half hour
  earlier may have been ideal.
 
  For soundboard tuning you want cabinet scrapers and small planes,
  spokeshaves, and gouges, look to the ample violin making literature
  for
  details on use.
 
  Sharpening equipment for all your tools, and a reference book for
  sharpening
  angles (in metals) which you will augment for the woods you use.  A
  plate of
  glass plus wet/dry paper (scary-sharp system), traditional european
  oil
  stones, traditional japanese water stones, each

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Jon Murphy]

I will compete for the smallest workshop - my 5' x 6' former walkin closet 
contained my entire shop (except for the hand work in my favorite arm chair 
in the living room). It has since expanded into my bedroom to avoid having 
to heft one tool off the bench and replace it with another.


I do have a 10 table saw, but that is not used in luthiery (it was on sale, 
so I bought it - and it is useful for other things, although I could easily 
do without it). My main tools are a Delta midi lathe (also used for other 
projects) tucked into a small alcove, a Sears 10 bandsaw (relatively unique 
as I get a 4 5/8 depth of cut, enough for resawing rib stock). A 10 drill 
press, and a low speed water wheel grinder. There is also a router table 
(desk top) that was also an impulse at a sale - don't use it much as I 
prefer hand tools for sensitive cutting. And a combination 1 belt/6 disk 
sander - another auxiliary. I could get rid of several of them - the sanding 
could be done with the collection of discs for my drill press - and for 
thinning the Luthiers Friend concoction. I do like my Wagner Saf T Planer 
(fitted to the drill press, and with a home made jig) for nice cuts.


None of this is relevant for the future, I hope. My lady and I may have 
bought a new place (she has been living in an apartment in the West Village 
of NYC for 42 years - and owned it as a co-op for the last twenty - and I've 
been here in NJ for the last 12 in a rather nice condo, but not well laid 
out for a workshop). In our declining years (read we ain't gonna quit) 
we have decided to combine expenses. The new apartment is a short drive from 
my current one (short for Tiger Woods, a driver and a five iron for me). My 
new bedroom will be 15 x 15, and with judicial alignment of my bed and 
whatever I'll be able to devote most of that to a workshop. She gets the 
living room, the 13 x 15 bedroom, the kitchen and such - I get my workshop 
and a small bunk to sleep on. If there is a heaven I think I'm about to 
enter it. I'll lay down masonite, or plywood, on the fully carpeted floor. 
I'll set all my tools on wheeled stands, except the lathe - that goes in 
front of the five foot wide window so I have great light (and room for the 
Delta extension). And we will have an attic, with a ladder (in my place I 
have one, but it is a crawl hole I can no longer manage). Wood supplies, old 
stock that one doesn't want to throw away. Old tools one really intends to 
refinish (I've a couple from the 19th C., and also my model of 1842 
Springfield musket (1849) that I'd like to reconstitute).


Should this come about I'll be able to be an exemplar of the bedroom 
workshop, and also probably produce production psalteries for the market 
while simultaneously making some rather decent lutes. I'm in love with the 
psaltery, but not in it's current incarnation that is more like a toy.


Best, Jon



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Rob Dorsey]

Dana,

I cut my rosettes with #5 scalpel blades. (A funny story. A medical supply
house once said: You're an instrument maker. On query as to how he would
know that he replied, Only two people buy these blades, instrument makers
and Rabbis and you don't look like a Mohel to me.)

The design is drawn on 100% rag, acid free paper and then glued to the back
of the belly. Initial cuts, done mostly as piercing, are made through the
back of the belly cutting along the drawing lines through the paper and
wood. The area of the rose should have been thinned to 1mm or so or this
process is very difficult. Final shaping and trimming, cutting of the facets
etc. is done on the front of the rose having first stabilized the wood with
a very thin, blond shellac wash.

Different strokes,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

On Wed, Dec 5, 2007, Troy Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 
 So gentleman,
  
 if there is a minimum regarding tools needed to get started such as:
  
 work bench (any particular size?)

I use a small carvers bench to produce componants, 24 x 4 ft, and
auxilliary space on an old oks dinning table in the same room for staging
parts.  I recomend a larger workbench, 30 x 4 ft would do, more never
hurts.

 carving tools

Depends on what you are building, some lutes were heavily carved, others
plain.  The rose can be worked with scalpel and small drills, but some use
punches which you would have to make.

I have a small set of gouges and carving tools which ends up involved in
most projects.

 measuring tools

The usual, bevel guage, squares large and small, metric tapes and inch
tapes.

 planes

Block and something long for jointing.

drills
--
Dana Emery




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[demery]

On Wed, Dec 5, 2007, Troy Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 
 So gentleman,
  
 if there is a minimum regarding tools needed to get started
 such as:
  
 work bench (any particular size?)

I use a small carvers bench to produce componants, 24 x 4 ft, and
auxilliary space on an old oks dinning table in the same room for staging
parts.  I recomend a larger workbench, 30 x 4 ft would do, more never
hurts.

 carving tools

Depends on what you are building, some lutes were heavily carved, others
plain.  The rose can be worked with scalpel and small drills, but some use
punches which you would have to make.

I have a small set of gouges and carving tools which ends up involved in
most projects.

 measuring tools

The usual, bevel guage, squares large and small, metric tapes and inch
tapes.

 planes

Block and something long for jointing.

drills
-- 
Dana Emery




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Jon Murphy]

Ooops, meant YMCA, jwm

index.html



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Dan, Din, Jon, Rob etc,

I have nothing against solid moulds as this shows 
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/moulds.htm

In practice I use skeleton moulds for lutes with fewer than 19 ribs 
and solid moulds for those with more. I find the skeleton better for 
aligning ribs while building and they are certainly quicker to make, 
which is why I showed them in my courses. It even has historic 
precedent in the Arnault of Zwolle manuscript. There are no historic 
moulds surviving, so for all we know the original makers all used 
skeleton moulds, though not in MDF, that horrid but useful material!

However in answer to Din's query I normally build up my solid moulds 
in exactly the same way as the skeletons but with each cross-section 
defined on paper first, which ensures the shape remains as designed 
and allows me to make then hollow at the same time. This makes the 
large theorbo moulds light enough to handle with ease. After the 
cross-sections are all glued up, the protruding corners are simply 
chiselled off leaving the exact mould shape, as I show in the lower 
picture. It's a nice metaphor to think of carving the air space and 
in fact that's what I'm doing, but on paper first. Perhaps I'm more 
used to seeing the 3D shape within the drawings having done it so 
much.

Thirty years ago, when I first started, I used to build without a 
mould in just the way Dan describes (following Ian Harwood, who I 
think first came up with the idea) and it's certainly a very quick 
method. But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for 
each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not 
semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic 
surviving lutes are like that. Most involve twisted and assymetric 
ribs and I came to prefer these shapes, hence the large number of 
moulds.

As ever there are many routes to the same end.

Best wishes,

David


At 16:25 + 4/12/07, Din Ghani wrote:
Jon,

I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a
solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately
curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with
your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it.

I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets,
following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets
from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I
can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould
are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt
directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just
on a steady hand and a sharp eye?

At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...

Regards

Din





  -Original Message-
  From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: 04 December 2007 14:22
  To: 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

  Jon,

  I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit
  harder to carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood.
  Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an
  avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so
  that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or
  so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious.

  Best,
  Rob Dorsey
  http://RobDorsey.com

  -Original Message-
  From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM
  To: lute-builder
  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

  All,

  I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make
  a solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the
  body, and as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for
  shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll gain from having
   the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to
  make the body of my incipient lute.

  Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the
  process, but I doubt I could accomplish it without being
  hands on at his workshop (which is tempting, but June is a
  long time away).

  Best, Jon





  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[alexandros tzimeros]

But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for 
each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not 
semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic 
surviving lutes are like that.

-Original Message-
I think one can build a lute with no semi-circular cross-section, without
having to twist ribs. But why non semi-circular cross-section is that
important? Can anyone tell for sure if the lute playing behind the curtain
has a s.circular c. section or not?




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Din Ghani]

Hi David,

Thanks for your response to my query - to me it does make a lot of sense.
Compared to the process Rob outlined, it does involve a lot more drawing,
and plenty of accurate cutting out, but all working to well-defined
parameters... I guess it appeals to the engineer in me!

Best regards

Din





 -Original Message-
 From: David Van Edwards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 05 December 2007 17:18
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
 Dear Dan, Din, Jon, Rob etc,
 
 I have nothing against solid moulds as this shows 
 http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/moulds.htm
 
 In practice I use skeleton moulds for lutes with fewer than 
 19 ribs and solid moulds for those with more. I find the 
 skeleton better for aligning ribs while building and they are 
 certainly quicker to make, which is why I showed them in my 
 courses. It even has historic precedent in the Arnault of 
 Zwolle manuscript. There are no historic moulds surviving, so 
 for all we know the original makers all used skeleton moulds, 
 though not in MDF, that horrid but useful material!
 
 However in answer to Din's query I normally build up my solid 
 moulds in exactly the same way as the skeletons but with each 
 cross-section defined on paper first, which ensures the shape 
 remains as designed and allows me to make then hollow at the 
 same time. This makes the large theorbo moulds light enough 
 to handle with ease. After the cross-sections are all glued 
 up, the protruding corners are simply chiselled off leaving 
 the exact mould shape, as I show in the lower picture. It's a 
 nice metaphor to think of carving the air space and in fact 
 that's what I'm doing, but on paper first. Perhaps I'm more 
 used to seeing the 3D shape within the drawings having done 
 it so much.
 
 Thirty years ago, when I first started, I used to build 
 without a mould in just the way Dan describes (following Ian 
 Harwood, who I think first came up with the idea) and it's 
 certainly a very quick method. But it's difficult (but not 
 impossible if you build a jig for each rib) to build the more 
 complex shapes which are not semi-circular in cross-section 
 and only a few of the historic surviving lutes are like that. 
 Most involve twisted and assymetric ribs and I came to prefer 
 these shapes, hence the large number of moulds.
 
 As ever there are many routes to the same end.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 David
 
 
 At 16:25 + 4/12/07, Din Ghani wrote:
 Jon,
 
 I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute 
 I'd like to 
 try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with 
 accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies 
 me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be 
 able to work out how to go about it.
 
 I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate 
 facets, following detailed instructions from David, and 
 using the lines 
 and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. 
 Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even 
 mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you 
 might be 
 able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I 
 assume there 
 is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand 
 and a sharp eye?
 
 At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...
 
 Regards
 
 Din
 
 
 
 
 
   -Original Message-
   From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: 04 December 2007 14:22
   To: 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
   Jon,
 
   I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit  
 harder to 
  carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood.
   Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an  
  avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so  that 
  the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or
   so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious.
 
   Best,
   Rob Dorsey
   http://RobDorsey.com
 
   -Original Message-
   From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM
   To: lute-builder
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
   All,
 
   I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make  a 
  solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the 
  body, and 
  as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for  
 shaping a solid 
  form. The confidence I'll gain from having
the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to
   make the body of my incipient lute.
 
   Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the  process, 
  but I doubt I could accomplish it without being  hands on at his 
  workshop (which is tempting, but June is a  long time away).
 
   Best, Jon
 
 
 
 
 
   To get on or off this list see list information at  
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[David Van Edwards]

In some cases, yes. Certainly theorbos have better projection when 
they have flattened cross-sections. And baroque lutes are noticeably 
non-circular in section. I think it's geometrically impossible to 
make these kind of shapes without twisting some of the ribs.

David

At 23:12 +0200 5/12/07, alexandros tzimeros wrote:
I think one can build a lute with no semi-circular cross-section, without
having to twist ribs. But why non semi-circular cross-section is that
important? Can anyone tell for sure if the lute playing behind the curtain
has a s.circular c. section or not?

-Original Message-

But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for
each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not
semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic
surviving lutes are like that.





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Din Ghani]

Troy,

It does depend on what method you will be following. If you do go with DvE's
CDROM, he includes a whole section on the minimum kit you need for his
method. He also give a lot of advice and hints on using various tools in
various tasks. Getting and keeping your tools sharp is probably one of the
key success factors, and he provides another section on this (including
sharpening scrapers - although I have yet to master this!).

Regarding a workbench, I think you need as much work area as you can get
(but then I'm a messy worker!). In any case, you'll find yourself colonizing
the kitchen table and other domestic spaces for various tasks...

Hope this helps

Din

 -Original Message-
 From: Troy Wheeler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 05 December 2007 12:17
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute construction
 
 
 So gentleman,
  
 if there is a minimum regarding tools needed to get started such as:
  
 work bench (any particular size?)
 carving tools
 measuring tools
 planes
  
 what would that minimum be?
  
 Best Regards
  
 TW
 _
 Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download 
 today it's FREE!
 http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sha
 relife_112007
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Chadwick Neal]

Can I add, most of the lutes I've studied differ in their profiles from plan
view to elevation as well as having a non semi-circular cross section.
Twisting is inevitable.

 Yes one can build without twisting the ribs but then your plan and
elevation profiles would half to be identical, which doesn't really occur in
original lutes. I could be wrong, have been before.

Chad


-Original Message-
From: David Van Edwards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

In some cases, yes. Certainly theorbos have better projection when 
they have flattened cross-sections. And baroque lutes are noticeably 
non-circular in section. I think it's geometrically impossible to 
make these kind of shapes without twisting some of the ribs.

David

At 23:12 +0200 5/12/07, alexandros tzimeros wrote:
I think one can build a lute with no semi-circular cross-section, without
having to twist ribs. But why non semi-circular cross-section is that
important? Can anyone tell for sure if the lute playing behind the curtain
has a s.circular c. section or not?

-Original Message-

But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for
each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not
semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic
surviving lutes are like that.





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Rob Dorsey]

Jon,

I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit harder to carve but
the best is bass wood or boxwood. Basswood carves like butter and is easy to
finish. As an avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so
that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or so) can be made
if you're feeling particularly industrious.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com 

-Original Message-
From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM
To: lute-builder
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

All,

I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make a solid one. I
like the idea of sculpting the air within the body, and as a woodcarver I
have all the tools and skills for shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll
gain from having the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to
make the body of my incipient lute.

Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the process, but I doubt
I could accomplish it without being hands on at his workshop (which is
tempting, but June is a long time away).

Best, Jon





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Din Ghani]

Jon,

I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a
solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately
curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with
your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it.

I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets,
following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets
from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I
can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould
are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt
directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just
on a steady hand and a sharp eye?

At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...

Regards

Din





 -Original Message-
 From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 04 December 2007 14:22
 To: 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
 Jon,
 
 I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit 
 harder to carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood. 
 Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an 
 avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so 
 that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or 
 so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious.
 
 Best,
 Rob Dorsey
 http://RobDorsey.com 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM
 To: lute-builder
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
 All,
 
 I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make 
 a solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the 
 body, and as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for 
 shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll gain from having 
 the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to 
 make the body of my incipient lute.
 
 Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the 
 process, but I doubt I could accomplish it without being 
 hands on at his workshop (which is tempting, but June is a 
 long time away).
 
 Best, Jon
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Rob Dorsey]

 Din,

Here's how to do the magic. As you know, walking on water is actually quite
easy if one knows where the rocks and stumps are. In this case they are
composed of  two or three card templates derived from a drawing. If you
don't have plans with sectional views (vertical cuts through the body at
precise points) then you will need construct them by drawing the body in
side view and front view. Due to the shape of the body, a front view will be
in perspective with the small block end in the foreground and the maximum
girth making up the largest part of the drawing. On this view you have drawn
the edges of the facets beginning at a point in front of the block and
extending to the perimeter of the drawing. If you started your drawing with
a smooth curve you may now connect the facet lines and, voila', the form of
the ribs. From this perspective view so segmented you may now fashion
templates which match the facets, i.e. an inside cutout with flats which
correspond to the outline of the body at a certain point. One should be at
the thickest point of the body shell - the faceted outline of your drawing -
and another about half way, no precisely half way, between the drawing edge
and the block.

Now, as you carve the mould you can apply these templates to the shape. You
will find that using a felt marker to draw the edges of the facets in as you
go, understanding that you will most probably carve them away and need to
redraw. Once you have the whole mold carved - and please, please do not get
too anal here, this is really not rocket science. Believe it or not
instrument build is a pretty forgiving medium - you cam saw off the block
end creating a flat onto which you can screw the basswood block wood. Once
you do, you can see how the facets on the block are merely extensions of the
body facets. It is things like this which keep me carving solid moulds. 

Hope this helps,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:26 AM
To: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

Jon,

I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a
solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately
curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with
your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it.

I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets,
following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets
from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I
can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould
are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt
directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just
on a steady hand and a sharp eye?

At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...

Regards

Din




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Din Ghani]

Rob,

Many thanks for sharing that. It may not be rocket science, but it is
precisely this sort of detailed know-how, often hard-won through long
experience, when generously shared as you have just done, and as David van
Edwards has done through his various courses, that makes all the difference
to a diffident beginner like me. 

I now have a clearer picture of that part of the process, a picture that I
know will become fully clear only when I actually get to the stage of trying
to do it - which will be a while yet, as the vihuela I'm attempting next
will require a somewhat simpler mould!

Best regards

Din



 -Original Message-
 From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 04 December 2007 18:54
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
  Din,
 
 Here's how to do the magic. As you know, walking on water is 
 actually quite easy if one knows where the rocks and stumps 
 are. In this case they are composed of  two or three card 
 templates derived from a drawing. If you don't have plans 
 with sectional views (vertical cuts through the body at 
 precise points) then you will need construct them by drawing 
 the body in side view and front view. Due to the shape of the 
 body, a front view will be in perspective with the small 
 block end in the foreground and the maximum girth making up 
 the largest part of the drawing. On this view you have drawn 
 the edges of the facets beginning at a point in front of the 
 block and extending to the perimeter of the drawing. If you 
 started your drawing with a smooth curve you may now connect 
 the facet lines and, voila', the form of the ribs. From this 
 perspective view so segmented you may now fashion templates 
 which match the facets, i.e. an inside cutout with flats 
 which correspond to the outline of the body at a certain 
 point. One should be at the thickest point of the body shell 
 - the faceted outline of your drawing - and another about 
 half way, no precisely half way, between the drawing edge and 
 the block.
 
 Now, as you carve the mould you can apply these templates to 
 the shape. You will find that using a felt marker to draw the 
 edges of the facets in as you go, understanding that you will 
 most probably carve them away and need to redraw. Once you 
 have the whole mold carved - and please, please do not get 
 too anal here, this is really not rocket science. Believe it 
 or not instrument build is a pretty forgiving medium - you 
 cam saw off the block end creating a flat onto which you can 
 screw the basswood block wood. Once you do, you can see how 
 the facets on the block are merely extensions of the body 
 facets. It is things like this which keep me carving solid moulds. 
 
 Hope this helps,
 Rob Dorsey
 http://RobDorsey.com
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:26 AM
 To: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
 Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
 Jon,
 
 I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute 
 I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a 
 complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out 
 of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience 
 of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it.
 
 I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly 
 accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, 
 and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to 
 guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, 
 Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the 
 mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a 
 clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a 
 systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye?
 
 At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...
 
 Regards
 
 Din
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Jon Murphy]

Din,

Carving skills are a combination of craftsmanship and artistry. Artistry and 
craftsmanship when carving a free-form scupture - but craftsmanship in 
duplicating a fixed form. The craftsmanship can be considerably enhanced by 
the proper tools. Like you I note that Lundberg's book doesn't show the 
process of carving the facets - the photos jump from a smooth form to a 
faceted form with nice gullies to allow the ribs to sink into the facet 
(something David v.E. also recommends for his skeletal form).


I had quite a time doing the neck block on my DvE mold also, but I was using 
free hand gouges from my carving tools, a small slip can screw it up. Most 
good woodworking catalogs (Lee Valley and Woodcraft come to mind) offer 
small planes as luthier's planes or finger planes some of which have 
laterally curved bases and blades - the same applies to small spokeshaves. 
They are not expensive, and being planes and spokeshaves they have the 
advantage of a controlled cut (and a bit of reshaping of the tool can adjust 
the radius to what you need). I have no fear of doing the facets with the 
small planes, but I'd be quite fearful of shaping them with the free hand 
gouges.


I'm sure that Bob Lundberg could have shaped them with a kitchen knive (as 
Steve points out that Dan Larsen can shape a peg hole with a knife), but Rob 
will tell us that. The sharp eye is always needed, but the steady hand less 
so when the tool is taking a minimal cut. It may take a bit more time for 
the beginner than the expert, but the result can be the same.


Best, Jon



- Original Message - 
From: Din Ghani [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Rob Dorsey' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
'lute-builder' [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar



Jon,

I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try 
a

solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately
curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure 
with
your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about 
it.


I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets,
following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets
from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I
can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould
are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt
directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just
on a steady hand and a sharp eye?

At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...

Regards

Din




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Rob Dorsey]

Jon,

To answer your question. He probably could, but he wouldn't.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com 

-Original Message-
From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 10:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Rob Dorsey'; 'lute-builder'
Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

Din,

Carving skills are a combination of craftsmanship and artistry. Artistry and
craftsmanship when carving a free-form scupture - but craftsmanship in
duplicating a fixed form. The craftsmanship can be considerably enhanced by
the proper tools. Like you I note that Lundberg's book doesn't show the
process of carving the facets - the photos jump from a smooth form to a
faceted form with nice gullies to allow the ribs to sink into the facet
(something David v.E. also recommends for his skeletal form).

I had quite a time doing the neck block on my DvE mold also, but I was using
free hand gouges from my carving tools, a small slip can screw it up. Most
good woodworking catalogs (Lee Valley and Woodcraft come to mind) offer
small planes as luthier's planes or finger planes some of which have
laterally curved bases and blades - the same applies to small spokeshaves.

They are not expensive, and being planes and spokeshaves they have the
advantage of a controlled cut (and a bit of reshaping of the tool can adjust
the radius to what you need). I have no fear of doing the facets with the
small planes, but I'd be quite fearful of shaping them with the free hand
gouges.

I'm sure that Bob Lundberg could have shaped them with a kitchen knive (as
Steve points out that Dan Larsen can shape a peg hole with a knife), but Rob
will tell us that. The sharp eye is always needed, but the steady hand less
so when the tool is taking a minimal cut. It may take a bit more time for
the beginner than the expert, but the result can be the same.

Best, Jon



- Original Message -
From: Din Ghani [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Rob Dorsey' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy' [EMAIL PROTECTED];
'lute-builder' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar


 Jon,

 I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to 
 try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with 
 accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies 
 me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work 
 out how to go about it.

 I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate 
 facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the 
 lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. 
 Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even 
 mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be 
 able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume 
 there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a
sharp eye?

 At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...

 Regards

 Din





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Din Ghani]

Jon,

I splashed out on the Lundberg book fairly late - after the bowl was
finished. As you say, it is a useful cross-reference, and informed the rest
of the build. However, I think one should take great care if any
cross-fertilization happens - it is not always possible to mix and match
different parts of the process. David warns of this in one specific,
critical area - the way the neck is fitted to the body to achieve the
correct action height. I fell foul of this in a less critical area - while
carving the (Gerle) rose I misinterpreted David's instructions as I had just
read Lundberg's description of his process, and made larger cuts than I
should have in certain areas. Luckily the result was still good enough,
and possibly added to the liveliness of the carving!

Similarly, regarding the mould (as it is called here in the UK :)), I'm not
sure that the difference between the toastrack type and the solid form is as
major as the difference in the processes involved in bending, shaping and
fitting the ribs. Lundberg's method involves trimming and fitting the edges
in situ, and cutting the bevel by eye using a rebate plane and a file.
David's uses a planing desk to cut the bevelled edges on a pre-bent rib. Not
having tried the Lundberg method, I can't comment on which is easier or
better, but like everything else, it's a matter of practice - the later
joints will probably come out better than the earlier ones! Yes, it was
scary at first, and getting the joins right while having the rib flat all
along the mould was quite a challenge - it takes a while to work out where
to adjust next. I know you've already cut and thicknessed the ribs - hope
you've got enough spare, and that you aren't too bothered about figure
matching - having a margin for making mistakes and starting again is very
important!

One thing to watch for though, if you do carry on with the toastrack, is to
check that the corners of the facets on each slice do line up properly. I
was too impatient in building my mould and ended up with some misalignments
which made the subsequent rib-fitting even more trying. 
Possibly this might be less of a problem with a solid mould?

By the way, the planing desk also doubled as a jointing plane for the
soundboard, just by adding a fence!

The other bit of advice is - make sure the mould is well waxed! I don't
think I put on enough (or it might have something to do with the fact that
many of the ribs had been on the mould for four years!) as I had the classic
problem of the bowl not wanting to come off the mould! This might be another
advantage of the toastrack style of mould - I  ended up breaking and
removing the slices of the rack from inside (relatively easy with the MDF
construction) until I was able to lift the bowl. I wasn't too dismayed at
having to destroy the mould, given the misalignments I mentioned earlier -
in any case my next project is going to be a vihuela!

I've wondered since whether Lundberg's instruction to break loose any
surplus glue under the last rib to be glued, just before gluring the next
one, would have helped to avoid this happening...

There's plenty to learn, from any source - you'll find out what works for
you only when you start doing it! There'll be plenty of mistakes and mishaps
along the way, but it is amazing what you can get away with - looking at my
finished lute it would take a knowledgeable eye to spot my deliberate
mistakes - and there were many...

Best wishes

Din



 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 03 December 2007 05:50
 To: Rob Dorsey; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler'; 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
 
 Rob,
 
 I envy you your 5 years of study with Bob Lundberg, and have 
 no quarrel with his methods to the extent that they are 
 represented in his book. I'm glad to have the book on my 
 shelves as a cross reference and backup to David van Edwards' 
 course. I don't regret the dual expenditure in having both, 
 although I probably would have gotten Bob's book later - 
 after my first completed lute from David's CD.
 
 You make a good point, start cutting wood. David's CD is far 
 more a step by step instructional than Bob's book - perhaps 
 it is that aspect that makes it easier to break through that  
 first block of getting started. On the other hand Bob's book 
 (I just pulled it from my shelves and glanced through it) is 
 a bit more general, what you call an intellectual approach.
 
 An example - the mold (mould, form). David makes a skeletal 
 mold from MDF - and provides full scale templates for it. Bob 
 builds up his form from layers of wood (almost as in the 
 transition from the ancient masada type Egyptian tomb to 
 the smoother pyramid) which he then shaves with a draw knife. 
 David's method is initially easier - but my next mold will be 
 done Bob's way. In part because I love using a draw knife, 
 and in part because one of my concerns is fittting

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Rob Dorsey]

All,

I use the solid form for several reasons: 

1) While it is a greater work load to build - fact is it is sculpture, plain
and simple AND you are not sculpting the body but the air within the body -
the solid mold can be used many times. I've my original mould from my first
lute under Bob in 1985 and I still build lutes on it. 

2) I use push-pins to pressure the ribs into place for gluing on the form
http://robdorsey.com/building.htm - just everyday map type push pins. These
at the edge of the rib plus over-straps to provide down tension keeps the
body true to the form.

3) After each rib dries I run the thin butter knife - yes, one of the
self-made tools any luthier needs, a large table knife which one has thinned
to .2mm or so and which has therefore become quite flexible - under the
joint the full length of the form, breaking it loose. Therefore, when the
last rib is on and dry, removing the block screws allow you to pop the
completed bowl off of the form easily, more or less.

There are many ways to skin a cat and they're all valid so long as you wind
up with a skinned cat.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:48 AM
To: 'Jon Murphy'
Cc: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

Jon,

I splashed out on the Lundberg book fairly late - after the bowl was
finished. As you say, it is a useful cross-reference, and informed the rest
of the build. However, I think one should take great care if any
cross-fertilization happens - it is not always possible to mix and match
different parts of the process. David warns of this in one specific,
critical area - the way the neck is fitted to the body to achieve the
correct action height. I fell foul of this in a less critical area - while
carving the (Gerle) rose I misinterpreted David's instructions as I had just
read Lundberg's description of his process, and made larger cuts than I
should have in certain areas. Luckily the result was still good enough,
and possibly added to the liveliness of the carving!

Similarly, regarding the mould (as it is called here in the UK :)), I'm not
sure that the difference between the toastrack type and the solid form is as
major as the difference in the processes involved in bending, shaping and
fitting the ribs. Lundberg's method involves trimming and fitting the edges
in situ, and cutting the bevel by eye using a rebate plane and a file.
David's uses a planing desk to cut the bevelled edges on a pre-bent rib. Not
having tried the Lundberg method, I can't comment on which is easier or
better, but like everything else, it's a matter of practice - the later
joints will probably come out better than the earlier ones! Yes, it was
scary at first, and getting the joins right while having the rib flat all
along the mould was quite a challenge - it takes a while to work out where
to adjust next. I know you've already cut and thicknessed the ribs - hope
you've got enough spare, and that you aren't too bothered about figure
matching - having a margin for making mistakes and starting again is very
important!

One thing to watch for though, if you do carry on with the toastrack, is to
check that the corners of the facets on each slice do line up properly. I
was too impatient in building my mould and ended up with some misalignments
which made the subsequent rib-fitting even more trying. 
Possibly this might be less of a problem with a solid mould?

By the way, the planing desk also doubled as a jointing plane for the
soundboard, just by adding a fence!

The other bit of advice is - make sure the mould is well waxed! I don't
think I put on enough (or it might have something to do with the fact that
many of the ribs had been on the mould for four years!) as I had the classic
problem of the bowl not wanting to come off the mould! This might be another
advantage of the toastrack style of mould - I  ended up breaking and
removing the slices of the rack from inside (relatively easy with the MDF
construction) until I was able to lift the bowl. I wasn't too dismayed at
having to destroy the mould, given the misalignments I mentioned earlier -
in any case my next project is going to be a vihuela!

I've wondered since whether Lundberg's instruction to break loose any
surplus glue under the last rib to be glued, just before gluring the next
one, would have helped to avoid this happening...

There's plenty to learn, from any source - you'll find out what works for
you only when you start doing it! There'll be plenty of mistakes and mishaps
along the way, but it is amazing what you can get away with - looking at my
finished lute it would take a knowledgeable eye to spot my deliberate
mistakes - and there were many...

Best wishes

Din



 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 03 December 2007 05:50
 To: Rob Dorsey; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[tamotz]

Hi all,
On the last lute I built, I used Daniel Larson's method, which he demonstrated 
in a workshop at a Lute Society conference several years ago.  He doesn't us a 
a form at all.  He has a jig that you bend a rib around.  After the rib is 
bent, it stays on the jig, which can pivot up and down to pre-set angles.  You 
pivot up, lock it in place, and run it with the rib blank past a horizontal saw 
blade spinning on a drill press.  Pivot the jig to the down position and repeat 
the cut for the other edge of the rib.  The process automatically cuts the rib 
to the right shape with the edges at the right angle.  After your ribs are all 
cut, you just glue them together using masking tape to hold the ribs together 
until the glue is set.  Working evenings and weekends using the traditional 
method, it would take me a couple of weeks to build a bowl.  Using Dan's 
method, I can cut the ribs for a 9-rib bowl and glue them together in an 
afternoon.  And the joins are much tighter than I ever could achieve using the 
traditional method.  

There is an investment of time in building the jig, but it's no more work than 
building a solid form.  I'm sold on it; I'll never go back to using a 
traditional form.

Tim Motz

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: Rob Dorsey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'Jon Murphy' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 'Troy Wheeler' [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:01:35 -0500

All,

I use the solid form for several reasons: 

1) While it is a greater work load to build - fact is it is sculpture, plain
and simple AND you are not sculpting the body but the air within the body -
the solid mold can be used many times. I've my original mould from my first
lute under Bob in 1985 and I still build lutes on it. 

2) I use push-pins to pressure the ribs into place for gluing on the form
http://robdorsey.com/building.htm - just everyday map type push pins. These
at the edge of the rib plus over-straps to provide down tension keeps the
body true to the form.

3) After each rib dries I run the thin butter knife - yes, one of the
self-made tools any luthier needs, a large table knife which one has thinned
to .2mm or so and which has therefore become quite flexible - under the
joint the full length of the form, breaking it loose. Therefore, when the
last rib is on and dry, removing the block screws allow you to pop the
completed bowl off of the form easily, more or less.

There are many ways to skin a cat and they're all valid so long as you wind
up with a skinned cat.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:48 AM
To: 'Jon Murphy'
Cc: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

Jon,

I splashed out on the Lundberg book fairly late - after the bowl was
finished. As you say, it is a useful cross-reference, and informed the rest
of the build. However, I think one should take great care if any
cross-fertilization happens - it is not always possible to mix and match
different parts of the process. David warns of this in one specific,
critical area - the way the neck is fitted to the body to achieve the
correct action height. I fell foul of this in a less critical area - while
carving the (Gerle) rose I misinterpreted David's instructions as I had just
read Lundberg's description of his process, and made larger cuts than I
should have in certain areas. Luckily the result was still good enough,
and possibly added to the liveliness of the carving!

Similarly, regarding the mould (as it is called here in the UK :)), I'm not
sure that the difference between the toastrack type and the solid form is as
major as the difference in the processes involved in bending, shaping and
fitting the ribs. Lundberg's method involves trimming and fitting the edges
in situ, and cutting the bevel by eye using a rebate plane and a file.
David's uses a planing desk to cut the bevelled edges on a pre-bent rib. Not
having tried the Lundberg method, I can't comment on which is easier or
better, but like everything else, it's a matter of practice - the later
joints will probably come out better than the earlier ones! Yes, it was
scary at first, and getting the joins right while having the rib flat all
along the mould was quite a challenge - it takes a while to work out where
to adjust next. I know you've already cut and thicknessed the ribs - hope
you've got enough spare, and that you aren't too bothered about figure
matching - having a margin for making mistakes and starting again is very
important!

One thing to watch for though, if you do carry on with the toastrack, is to
check that the corners of the facets on each slice do line up properly. I
was too impatient in building my mould and ended up with some misalignments
which made the subsequent rib-fitting even more trying. 
Possibly this might

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: [LUTE-BUILDER]

[tamotz]

Hi Dan,
I am definitely interested in attending the workshop.  I'll look forward to it. 
 I've tried to take the philosophy into other tasks in lute construction, too.  
I use a masonite template and a Luthier's Friend to template-sand a lute bridge 
most of the way from a blank to a finished state in a matter of minutes.  All 
it needs after leaving the sander is some touching up and having the rebates 
carved on each face.  I use the thickness-sanding feature of the Luthier's 
Friend to thin down the wings of the bridge in a nice graceful curve down from 
the center portion.  

In your class (if this wouldn't be on too basic a level for everyone), a 
discussion of soundboard bracing and how to efficiently trim braces for even 
response across the courses would be wonderful.  Just watching someone do it 
and listening to the tones produced at points along the way would help.  I've 
tried following Lundberg's instructions on this, but if you don't know what 
you're listening for, it's hard to know whether or not you've succeeded.  I've 
been told that I did a good job on at least one of my lutes of getting even 
response, but I suspect that was more a matter of luck than anything else.  I 
know you tune a soundboard using Chladni patterns, but that comes after the 
positioning of the braces and basic shaving of them, doesn't it?

Thanks,
Tim

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: Dan Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER]
Date:   Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:48:27 -0600


 There is an investment of time in building the jig, but it's no more work
 than building a solid form.  I'm sold on it; I'll never go back to using a
 traditional form.

   Tim,
   Thanks so much for the positive response about the class.  I am glad
   to hear that the system worked for you.
   You and the others on the list might be interested to hear that I
   will be repeating the class at the Lute Society summer workshop in Cleveland
   in June of '08.  I have not worked out all of the details yet, but I am
   thinking the class will cover:
 * Lute design for production
 * Moldless bowl construction
 * Lute front vibrating patterns

   It would be great to have a nice contingent of lute makers at the
   workshop.
   Regards,
   Dan Larson

   26 N. 28th Ave. E.
   Duluth, MN 55812
   USA
   Toll Free phone/fax in the USA: 1-888-724-8099
   Outside the USA phone/fax: 1-218-724-8011
   website: [1]www.daniellarson.com

References

   1. http://www.daniellarson.com/


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Rob Dorsey]

I studied building with Lundeberg for 5 years and found his methods sound
and practical, if a bit fussy. Since then experience has tempered the fussy
aspects and smoothed my own techniques to be not quite so anal. It is, in
all, a more comfortable way to work. I've not audited the Van Edwards method
but reckon that any method which gives a student the confidence to roll up
his sleeves and cut wood is a good thing. Lundeberg's book is merely the
intellectual approach and should, like a good menudo recipe, be taken as a
guide line. Bob, for instance, didn't use enough glue in many cases in the
interest of neatness. It's not neat when a seam opens after a few years so I
make certain that my joints are fully saturated with glue. You can always
wipe it off. The final outcome is just as tidy.

Start cutting wood and you will learn.

Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

Troy,

You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on
hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book
Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM.

For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years
ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you
it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and
shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will
go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the guts
to step into the making of the body.

Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd
spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format
and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your
workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step,
yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. 
I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with van
Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards).

Best, Jon



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Timothy Motz]

I agree.  The best way to learn how to make a lute is to make a  
lute.  And then make another.  I'm on my fifth, and looking back at  
the previous four I can see a steady progression as I got comfortable  
with the process and developed my skills.  I'm hoping I'll see more  
of that progression when I'm done with the fifth one.


And I also agree about the glue.  I had problems with the first three  
lutes with the bridge coming off.  I got pretty good at re-attaching  
them, but that's not exactly something to be proud of.  On the  
fourth, I finally used the method that David Van Edwards apparently  
advocates (I've heard this from others, not from DVE) and  
deliberately applied and removed the bridge a couple of times to  
build up a saturated joint.  This one is holding nicely.  And as Rob  
says, you can always remove the excess, especially if it's still in  
the jello phase.


Tim Motz

On Dec 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Rob Dorsey wrote:

I studied building with Lundeberg for 5 years and found his methods  
sound
and practical, if a bit fussy. Since then experience has tempered  
the fussy
aspects and smoothed my own techniques to be not quite so anal. It  
is, in
all, a more comfortable way to work. I've not audited the Van  
Edwards method
but reckon that any method which gives a student the confidence to  
roll up
his sleeves and cut wood is a good thing. Lundeberg's book is  
merely the
intellectual approach and should, like a good menudo recipe, be  
taken as a
guide line. Bob, for instance, didn't use enough glue in many cases  
in the
interest of neatness. It's not neat when a seam opens after a few  
years so I
make certain that my joints are fully saturated with glue. You can  
always

wipe it off. The final outcome is just as tidy.

Start cutting wood and you will learn.

Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

Troy,

You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is  
temporarily on

hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book
Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM.

For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke  
two years
ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness.  
Like you
it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of  
forming and
shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the  
rest will
go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of  
the guts

to step into the making of the body.

Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested  
instructionals I'd
spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF  
format

and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your
workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step  
by step,
yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed  
instruments.
I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go  
with van
Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van  
Edwards).


Best, Jon



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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Jon-

Nice to hear from you again.

Mike Wilson



Original Message:
-
From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 01:37:56 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar


Troy,

You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on 
hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book 
Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM.

For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years 
ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you 
it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and 
shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will 
go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the
guts 
to step into the making of the body.

Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd 
spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format 
and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your 
workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step, 
yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. 
I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with
van 
Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards).

Best, Jon



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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Jon Murphy]

Rob,

I envy you your 5 years of study with Bob Lundberg, and have no quarrel with 
his methods to the extent that they are represented in his book. I'm glad to 
have the book on my shelves as a cross reference and backup to David van 
Edwards' course. I don't regret the dual expenditure in having both, 
although I probably would have gotten Bob's book later - after my first 
completed lute from David's CD.


You make a good point, start cutting wood. David's CD is far more a step by 
step instructional than Bob's book - perhaps it is that aspect that makes it 
easier to break through that  first block of getting started. On the other 
hand Bob's book (I just pulled it from my shelves and glanced through it) is 
a bit more general, what you call an intellectual approach.


An example - the mold (mould, form). David makes a skeletal mold from 
MDF - and provides full scale templates for it. Bob builds up his form from 
layers of wood (almost as in the transition from the ancient masada type 
Egyptian tomb to the smoother pyramid) which he then shaves with a draw 
knife. David's method is initially easier - but my next mold will be done 
Bob's way. In part because I love using a draw knife, and in part because 
one of my concerns is fittting the belly segments over the skeletal ribs 
of David's mold - and that may be my delay in restarting. There is a great 
deal more effort involved in matching the skeletal mold ribs than it would 
appear in the instructional - it took me months, and I won't be sure I have 
it right until I actually make the belly. In fact, come to think of it, I 
may consider canning the mold I made from David's instructional and making 
one with Bob's method (using David's templates). Not to knock David's 
method, I'm sure his skills at shaping the belly over the skeleton mold give 
him consistant and excellent results - but perhaps the fully carved form 
that Bob uses might instill more confidence in a beginner. The final shape 
of the form will be the final shape of the belly, whereas with the skeleton 
it will involve some extra skills in the wood bending process.


Sorry for the bit of stream of consciousness, and the picking out of one 
detail, but it emphasizes that there is more than one way to skin a cat 
(and luckily my cat, Lucky, isn't watching me type this - she doesn't like 
that analogy). I thank Troy for bringing this up, and Rob and Din for 
mentioning the competing instructionals. I am ashamed of myself for 
chickening out, but I think this will get me back on track - and 
particularly as I'll now compare the two approaches at each step and make my 
own decisions. I like the thought of redoing my mold, I think I'll be more 
comfortable with a solid one.


Best, Jon




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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Jon Murphy]

Mike,

Glad to be back! I'm going to append a message to you below your quoted 
message so that the entire list doesn't have to read it. But I send it to 
the list because some might be interested. JWM.


- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:19 PM
Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar


Jon-

Nice to hear from you again.

Mike Wilson

*
Mike, and all,

For some reason I haven't been seeing Lute Builder communications for some 
time, I guess I got them lost in a filter somehow. I'm going to toss in a 
bit of the personal just because I feel like it.


I got off track for a while due to some medical problems, these happen when 
you reach my advanced age g, luckily my age ain't that advanced (72) in 
these days. I have continued with my intent to write a book on strings - 
I've been doing physical experiments on the various materials with a few 
devices of my own concoction. The manufacturers provide some specs as to 
density and tensile strength - and these are key factors in instrument 
design - but many are out of date, and don't allow for the differences in 
manufacturing quality. I've built a set of shears (the two leg derrick 
used in the days of wooden ships to raise the masts) and a block and tackle 
rig to test the tensile strengths (the weights were a problem, then I got 
body builder's weights at a Modell's at a discount). I can put direct 
tension of up to 170 lbs. in increments of a half pound (and no, I don't 
start low and add half pounds). A jeweler's scale lets me test the density 
of the material. I'm working with steel, gut, Nylgut, bronze and brass - I 
hope to come up with a practical reference book for all stringed 
instruments.


I'm sure those who have read this far wonder why this effort when the 
formulae and principles of the strings have been known for centuries (and 
the basics known since Pythagorus). I got off onto a side track this summer 
when an emergency operation on one of my legs made me keep my leg up. I 
couldn't play my harp, which is my main instrument, and it wasn't a great 
position for the lute - so I started working with the medieval psaltery I'd 
made a couple of years ago - and had considered a bit of a toy. As I played 
it I realized that there was more to it than I thought - and I looked up the 
various paintings and sketches from the times and found it was often played 
as a polyphonic instrument laid horizontally, and with many more strings 
than the current makers use. Not the simple melody instrument of the new 
age practitioners. That returned me to the writing of the book, and started 
me on the idea of making fully capable psalteries for sale. (They are a lot 
easier to make than lutes).


Harps and lutes, psalteries and dulcimers (and I convinced that historically 
the dulcimer is a psaltery that is struck - they separated a couple of 
centuries ago). The strings are the same (given the material) but the 
criteria for selection are different. It is said that the lute should be 
tuned just under the break pitch of the chanterelle, then the rest 
appropriately. My flat back from Musikits was over length - it took a 
particular fishing line of a slightly higher tensile strength than musical 
nylon to get it to G. (Musikits changed its length on my advice). That 
brought me to the personal discovery of the long known fact that there is a 
breaking pitch, something that should have been obvious - but like 
Columbus and the egg not generally recognized. Yet all the articles and 
texts that dealt with the string formulae were specific to the instrument. 
The harp maker, with his many strings pulling directly away from the 
soundboard, has to consider the total tension of all the strings (which can 
amount to over 1000 lbs), else the soundboard will pop. The luthier has 
different concerns as his strings are stopped to change the pitch, making 
the fixed length variable. The zither/cithera/lyre/psaltery maker is in 
between. I've recast the formulae algebraically, and am graphing the 
competing characteristics, such that I think I will come up with something 
universally useful (including the recasting regarding the use of weight 
measures of tension and the force measure as in Newtons). They are all the 
same, just use different fixed and independent variables.


OK, I've rambled. Now a bit more. My workshop is in a converted walk-in 
closet in my bedroom, and has spread into the bedroom. Storage of supplies 
and partially completed work is almost impossible. My lady and I have 
decided to move (she will sell her NYC co-op apartment and move here - we 
have bid on a slightly larger place in my development that has an attic!!! 
And a bedroom for me big enough to sleep in and have a properly laid out 
workshop - and keep my sawdust out of her living room). I expect that to 
happen in February, and the move is only a short drive (for Tiger Woods

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Rob Dorsey]

Hi Troy,

I also highly recommend the Robert Lundberg book Historical Lute
Construction which is available from the Guild of American Luthiers(
http://www.luth.org/ ) but may be found at less cost on eBay or Amazon. The
GAL is primarily a guitar builder's group barely earning the name luthier
but they occasionally have something of interest to the early instrument
maker.

Baroque guitar building is quite different from the skills and disciplines
needed in lute building and the GAL might be of greater service in such an
endeavor than for lutes.

Best advice: Sharpen your tools and start cutting some wood.

Rob Dorsey, Luthier
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Troy Wheeler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:23 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute - Baroque Guitar


Hello, 
 
I am new to the list.
Can anyone recommend any literature
regarding Lute and or Baroque guitar constuction?
 
Best Regards
 
TW
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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Din Ghani]

Hi Troy,

If you're actually wanting to build a lute, I would recommend getting David
van Edwards' CD-ROM and plans (for either a renaissance or a baroque lute -
see www.vanedwards.co.uk). I have just completed a renaissance lute from
this, and am very pleased with the results (in spite of everything that
could go wrong going wrong!) - it only took 4.5 years although most of the
progress was in the last 6 months, when I began to believe that it could be
completed!

The instructions are very detailed, lots of colour photos, and there is a
huge amount of knowledge and experience encapsulated in the CDROM - it's up
to you to acquire the necessary skills, if you haven't already!

Best wishes

Din Ghani



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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Jon Murphy]

Troy,

You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on 
hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book 
Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM.


For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years 
ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you 
it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and 
shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will 
go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the guts 
to step into the making of the body.


Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd 
spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format 
and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your 
workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step, 
yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. 
I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with van 
Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards).


Best, Jon



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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[robert fallis]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:23:19 -, Troy Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:




Can anyone recommend any literature
regarding Lute and or Baroque guitar constuction?



 Hi. Welcome,
The Lute Society.here in the UK used to do a set of plans and a booklet on
lute construction . they have a web site. and are helpful


regards
bob


Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/



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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[starbuc2]

baroque guitar plan

http://www.luth.org/plans/bp.htm#guitar

it's plan no. 27.

-David


- Original Message -
From: Troy Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:24 am
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute - Baroque Guitar
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 Hello, 
 
 I am new to the list.
 Can anyone recommend any literature
 regarding Lute and or Baroque guitar constuction?
 
 Best Regards
 
 TW
 _
 Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.! 
 Join in.
 www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[starbuc2]

One of the best books I've found is the the one by Robert Lundberg. You can 
order it at 
http://www.luth.org They also sell the full-size drawings of instruments 
mentioned in the 
book. Also check the plans list on that site, there may be a baroque guitar 
plan in there.

There was also a book by Cooper from back in the 60s or 70s that I had, but the 
plans were 
based on a Hauser lute with guitar type bridge and metal frets. Some of the 
construction 
methods in that book are not very detailed, but an interesting way of making 
the mold is 
there and I've used that method and it worked well.

Might also be worth joining some of the luthier forums although there doesn't 
seem to be too 
many lute makers on any of them.

-David 


- Original Message -
From: Troy Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:24 am
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute - Baroque Guitar
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 Hello, 
 
 I am new to the list.
 Can anyone recommend any literature
 regarding Lute and or Baroque guitar constuction?
 
 Best Regards
 
 TW
 _
 Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.! 
 Join in.
 www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: [LUTE-BUILDER]belly finishes

[Solaris Solarium]

Can someone please tell me what is currently considered best practice is for 
finishing the belly of metal-strung cittern-like instruments (in this case, an 
orpharion)? Same minimalist approach as historic lute? thanks very much
christopher davies

   
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