Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Brian K. White]

On 5/4/21 10:26 PM, Jerry Davis wrote:

Just an update on how my explorations went today.

First I have to apologize to the group for misleading about the cable.  
When I took the covers off the cable I built I was dismayed to find that 
I had connected all control signals as indicated in the documentation.  
I remembered that I started out to do just a 3 wire configuration but 
changed my mind and did a full pinout.  So I misinformed you.  I do have 
a cable in the recommended configuration.


My USB serial cable was producing +/- 6V which is enough to get good TTL 
transitions on the Model 100 receivers.  I can't check the receivers in 
the USB cable but I have no problem with TX or RX during testing.


I could not get TEENY.EXE to work for me on DOSBOX.  Could be something 
odd with my laptop (Dell Windows 10 Pro 64 bit) or USB cable (I don't 
even know if there's a brand on it).


I cold started the M100 and executed the TEENY.DO text file download 
from Term.  I loaded that file in basic and ran it.  That seemed to 
work.  I ended up with a TEENY.CO  file.


I installed LaddieAlpha on my Windows laptop, started it in a Windows 
command prompt, and gave it the COM port and the number 6 as command 
line parameters.  LaddieAlpha started up fine with no error messages.  
But when I attempted to run TEENY.CO , the Model 100 
just beeped and returned to the menu.  I couldn't get a prompt from 
TEENY.CO .  Just a beep and back to the menu.  Maybe 
something I did wrong.


I cold started the M100 again and installed mComm on my Windows laptop.  
Then I installed TEENY.CO  following the on-screen 
instructions from mComm.  After the transfer completed I followed the 
instructions on the M100 and started TEENY.CO  and it 
worked!  I tested a few simple file transfers.  All worked as expected.


I shut down mComm and started LaddieAlpha as I did previously.  I 
started TEENY.CO  on the M100 and it worked!  I tested 
a few simple file transfers.  All worked as expected.


It appears that the TEENY client install using mComm got things working 
for me.  I don't know why.  But, YEA!


It has been a lot of fun reading the responses to my question.  I am 
grateful that all of you took the time to answer back.  Your advice was 
right on.  I've learned a lot today.


And now you are ready to conquer the universe!

Your first installation via telcom and using laddie as the server was 
probably fine too actually. That beep and return to menu is normal when 
you forget to clear. If your machine has 32K of ram installed, then you 
probably needed to do a  "CLEAR 0,62213" in basic before trying to run 
teeny.co


--
bkw

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Jerry Davis]

Just an update on how my explorations went today.

First I have to apologize to the group for misleading about the cable.
When I took the covers off the cable I built I was dismayed to find that I
had connected all control signals as indicated in the documentation.  I
remembered that I started out to do just a 3 wire configuration but changed
my mind and did a full pinout.  So I misinformed you.  I do have a cable in
the recommended configuration.

My USB serial cable was producing +/- 6V which is enough to get good TTL
transitions on the Model 100 receivers.  I can't check the receivers in the
USB cable but I have no problem with TX or RX during testing.

I could not get TEENY.EXE to work for me on DOSBOX.  Could be something odd
with my laptop (Dell Windows 10 Pro 64 bit) or USB cable (I don't even know
if there's a brand on it).

I cold started the M100 and executed the TEENY.DO text file download from
Term.  I loaded that file in basic and ran it.  That seemed to work.  I
ended up with a TEENY.CO  file.

I installed LaddieAlpha on my Windows laptop, started it in a Windows
command prompt, and gave it the COM port and the number 6 as command line
parameters.  LaddieAlpha started up fine with no error messages.  But when
I attempted to run TEENY.CO, the Model 100 just beeped and returned to the
menu.  I couldn't get a prompt from TEENY.CO.  Just a beep and back to the
menu.  Maybe something I did wrong.

I cold started the M100 again and installed mComm on my Windows laptop.
Then I installed TEENY.CO following the on-screen instructions from mComm.
After the transfer completed I followed the instructions on the M100 and
started TEENY.CO and it worked!  I tested a few simple file transfers.  All
worked as expected.

I shut down mComm and started LaddieAlpha as I did previously.  I started
TEENY.CO on the M100 and it worked!  I tested a few simple file transfers.
All worked as expected.

It appears that the TEENY client install using mComm got things working for
me.  I don't know why.  But, YEA!

It has been a lot of fun reading the responses to my question.  I am
grateful that all of you took the time to answer back.  Your advice was
right on.  I've learned a lot today.

Sincerely,

Jerry


On Tue, May 4, 2021, 6:07 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:

> I guess. But TBACK's ambition was always to be a command line Swiss Army
> Knife for file transfer, in the absence of any client software, based on
> the RUN"COM:98N1E" magic incantation.
>
> My main point with LaddieAlpha is laddiealpha was meant to be headless. It
> sits over there on another machine and runs. Your only interface to it is
> TS-DOS or TEENY on a laptop.
>
> Similar I think to Hurd's vision for dl.
>
> You could interactively use it to inject a DO file in a special mode if
> such a feature were added. But given many other ways to do it, and it
> not being its core mission, I just didn't feel a need to clutter it up. I
> may add it eventually just to check off the box though, who knows. Like I
> said my preference is to add a full-screen CLI mode to Laddie operable via
> TELCOM. Since then I can offer other file operations including bootstrap
> with a UI.
>
> For interactive TPDD emulators like mComm, DLPilot, an injector makes
> perfect sense to me. The idea is a human operator.
>
> "The telcom way is just simply ridiculous"
>
> I think you're overstating it. It's a nice way to transfer a text file.
>
> LAPTAP.EXE's way is better, you should try that, I think you'll like it.
>
> -- John.
>

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Brian White]

> LAPTAP.EXE's way is better, you should try that, I think you'll like it.
>

I'll check it out.

-- 
bkw

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[John R. Hogerhuis]

I guess. But TBACK's ambition was always to be a command line Swiss Army
Knife for file transfer, in the absence of any client software, based on
the RUN"COM:98N1E" magic incantation.

My main point with LaddieAlpha is laddiealpha was meant to be headless. It
sits over there on another machine and runs. Your only interface to it is
TS-DOS or TEENY on a laptop.

Similar I think to Hurd's vision for dl.

You could interactively use it to inject a DO file in a special mode if
such a feature were added. But given many other ways to do it, and it
not being its core mission, I just didn't feel a need to clutter it up. I
may add it eventually just to check off the box though, who knows. Like I
said my preference is to add a full-screen CLI mode to Laddie operable via
TELCOM. Since then I can offer other file operations including bootstrap
with a UI.

For interactive TPDD emulators like mComm, DLPilot, an injector makes
perfect sense to me. The idea is a human operator.

"The telcom way is just simply ridiculous"

I think you're overstating it. It's a nice way to transfer a text file.

LAPTAP.EXE's way is better, you should try that, I think you'll like it.

-- John.

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Brian K. White]

I would say TBACK's PUT function looks like hands down the thing to 
suggest along with Laddie. I will start adding that to my answers to 
questions like that where I want to say all the available options.


The telcom way is just simply ridiculous. Yes it's possible. But so 
what? You don't perceive it as inconvenient and you don't suffer 
failures, because you are practiced. That doesn't change the fact that 
it requires more steps, more understanding, and is more error-prone. 
It's not only more difficult for the user asking for directions, it's 
more difficult for anyone trying to offer directions. It's a big fat 
pain on all sides, relative to what's possible, and the difference can 
be quantified, not merely a matter of opinion or feeling. Telcom is the 
option of last resort. It needs to exist in documentation and 
references, which most people never need to consult.


I do agree that technically the bootstrapper and the tpdd emulator are 
two different jobs that merely always just happen to go together. But 
the only time you might need a tpdd server without also needing a tpdd 
client installer, is when you have a REX or a real option rom. REX is 
great and I recommend it to everyone, but it's not user-friendly to 
actually require one. For dlplus, it's such a small function in terms of 
lines of code, and requires the same serial port setup, that I decided 
it makes sense to leave it right in the same executable, but just with 
no hardcoding specific to any particular tpdd client. It comes bundled 
with a bunch of client installers, but they are all external files and 
so are their associated install directions, and it's not even hardcoded 
to only use those bundled files.


You made the same decision yourself when you put an arbitrary .CO 
installer into a full system backup & restore app. ;)


I actually agree it's a natural enough inclusion, the functions are 
related enough, so I'm not saying I think it should be separate. I'm 
saying anything you can say about a tpdd client bootstrapper in a tpdd 
emulator violating the "Unix Way", applies exactly the same to the .co 
installer in tback.


--
bkw



On 5/4/21 2:34 PM, John R. Hogerhuis wrote:
Actually my reasons for not getting around to an injector for 
LaddieAlpha come back to me. I have added injectors before.


DLPilot, for example, has a text file injector, and was generally used 
with TEENY.DO


But DLPilot is interactive.You can select a file from a drop down, and 
tell it to transfer a file. Similar to Android mComm.


While LaddieAlpha is a command line utility, intended to be "headless."

And if I assume the user is at a prompt, the Unix Way is to have a 
utility do One Job. So the natural thing is to use some other utility as 
an injector, if it exists.


And those ways exist...

A terminal program like Hyperterminal or Minicom
http://bitchin100.com/wiki/index.php?title=Text_File_Transfer_using_Hyperterminal 



TBACK.EXE
http://bitchin100.com/wiki/index.php?title=TBACK 



LAPTAP.EXE (this one is very clever... basically the Terminal Way with 
Model 100-specific prompts so transferred content doesn't get slowed to 
LCD speeds)
Someone could consider recreating this tool in a Python or Perl or 
Node.js script.
http://www.club100.org/library/libeme.html 



TEENY in MP3 format
   Comes with DLPlus

TEENY.EXE (was once the BEST way to install TEENY, since it can 
configure TEENY image depending on need)


Will I ever add an injector to LaddieAlpha? Probably. But it will come 
along for the ride with a interactive TELCOM based UI mode, so I can 
actually deliver prompts to the user.


-- John.



--
bkw

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[John R. Hogerhuis]

Actually my reasons for not getting around to an injector for LaddieAlpha
come back to me. I have added injectors before.

DLPilot, for example, has a text file injector, and was generally used with
TEENY.DO

But DLPilot is interactive.You can select a file from a drop down, and tell
it to transfer a file. Similar to Android mComm.

While LaddieAlpha is a command line utility, intended to be "headless."

And if I assume the user is at a prompt, the Unix Way is to have a utility
do One Job. So the natural thing is to use some other utility as an
injector, if it exists.

And those ways exist...

A terminal program like Hyperterminal or Minicom

http://bitchin100.com/wiki/index.php?title=Text_File_Transfer_using_Hyperterminal

TBACK.EXE
   http://bitchin100.com/wiki/index.php?title=TBACK

LAPTAP.EXE (this one is very clever... basically the Terminal Way with
Model 100-specific prompts so transferred content doesn't get slowed to LCD
speeds)
Someone could consider recreating this tool in a Python or Perl or Node.js
script.
  http://www.club100.org/library/libeme.html

TEENY in MP3 format
  Comes with DLPlus

TEENY.EXE (was once the BEST way to install TEENY, since it can configure
TEENY image depending on need)

Will I ever add an injector to LaddieAlpha? Probably. But it will come
along for the ride with a interactive TELCOM based UI mode, so I can
actually deliver prompts to the user.

-- John.

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[John R. Hogerhuis]

Seems like it would be no problem transferring TEENY.DO given he has a
terminal program set up already.

I haven't added an injector to LaddieAlpha, true. Never felt it needed it.
Most people use TSDOS rom or Rex and those who want to transfer TEENY...
transferring a plain text file is a good skill to acquire.

Teeny.exe has the dtr feature because it was the universal injector and the
palm pilot tpdd emulator DLPilot would only work with a dtr disabled
version. As palm pilot cables and cradles do not have dtr/dsr. So Ron
Wiesen added it for me.

And in general I think that cable checks are dumb. Why make your software
not work when it could work? Dtr is not actually involved in the
communication.

-- John.

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Brian White]

Laddie works great as a tpdd emulator, but it just doesn't include a
bootstrapper to install a client. If you have a REX or an actual TS-DOS
option rom (or build a Teeprom, but you can buy a much more useful REX# for
the same or less cost) then Laddie is great. But if you need to install the
client then you need mComm or teeny.exe or dlplus in addition just to use
it's bootstrapper.

You CAN transfer the same loader.ba file manually with a comm program and
TELCOM to install a client manually, but it's more complicated, more
error-prone, and silly to bother since dedicated utils exist specifically
to remove all the variables, moving parts, and pitfalls, and reduce the
number of steps and special instructions of that process.

There is also an mp3 of the cassette version of TS-DOS which you can
install using the cassette cable and a phone with a headphone jack. That's
simpler and more reliable than the manual telecom process but again,
pointless, because if you're installing a tpdd client, it's probably to use
a tpdd emulator, in which case you need the same serial and usb cable
anyway. The cassette/mp3 installer would be useful in the theoretical
old-days situation where you need a way to install a tpdd client to use
with an actual tpdd drive. The drive comes with a special disk for that so
that you can bootstrap with nothing but the drive, but that only provides
the basic tpdd client called FLOPPY, not TS-DOS. So, if you had your 100
and TPDD and a cassette player, and modern machines didn't exist yet, you
could recover from a reset and install TS-DOS using the cassette. Today
that's just an unnecessary excersize.

-- 
bkw

On Tue, May 4, 2021, 10:35 AM Jerry Davis  wrote:

> Hello, Steve
>
> Good question.  Sometimes I'm not quite sure how I got where I am on a
> given solution.  I began by reading through the M100 mail archive starting
> at the bottom.  I found many, many references to TEENY in one form or
> another.  References to LaddieCon and LaddieAlpha from about the middle on
> up.  I think I even ended up reading a good interview article written about
> the operators of the bitchin100.com site and the author of LaddieCon.
> Don't remember how I got there.
>
> What I did was pick a solution and go with it, i.e. TPDD emulator and a
> TPDD client, and then adapt from there.  At the time, TEENY seemed to be a
> good place to start.  Part of the fun for me is learning how to do things,
> seeing how much experience I can pick up by trying different things, and
> asking a question or two when I get stuck.  Which sometimes means I end up
> traveling on a dead end street.  But that's OK because I like to drive.
> With one question I've gotten a lot of great advice just this morning
> which is clearing up some of the information fog for me.
>
> Your suggestion for LaddieAlpha is on my list to explore.  I had
> originally thought that LaddieCon wasn't recommended and LaddieAlpha was
> for Linux only, but after you mentioned it I read the information you
> directed me to more carefully and it's cross-platform.  So I'm now going
> "Ah Ha"!  Not sure how I missed that.  Probably too many late nights, I
> guess.  It's hard to read when I'm trying to see things.
>
> Thanks for your help on this.
>
> Jerry
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 8:27 AM Stephen Adolph 
> wrote:
>
>> Jerry, why are you not using LaddieAlpha?  it is the most mature solution
>> in my opinion, and it runs native on Windows 10?  I use it a lot.
>>
>> I would separate the "bootstrap" from the "usage".  Bootstrap is pretty
>> easy. I just transfer a text version of Teeny..BA.  I don't bother with the
>> injection aspect of Teeny.EXE on a PC at all anymore.
>>
>> ..Steve
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:20 AM Jerry Davis  wrote:
>>
>>> Justin, Georg, and Brian.  Many thanks for your assistance on this.
>>> I'll get the cable up to spec and verify physical layer is the way it's
>>> supposed to be, try again, and report back.  I'll also test with mComm as
>>> that appears to be a better way to get the client installed.
>>>
>>> Thanks again!
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:45 AM Brian K. White 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On 5/4/21 7:20 AM, Justin Poirier wrote:
 > Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start
 slow
 > and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work
 your
 > way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when
 I
 > go much past 2400.

 In general yes, but not for this.

 TEENY.EXE is hardcoded to run at the same speed as the TPDD which
 itself
 is hardwired to run at 19.2k. TEENY.EXE has it's own small delay
 between
 each character to dribble the bytes in slow enough even though the
 serial port is set to 19.2k, and,it uses a BASIC command to read the
 port raw without any screen updates.

 The most likely problem here is that TPDD requires more than just
 TX/RX/GND.

 At the very 

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Jerry Davis]

Hello, Steve

Good question.  Sometimes I'm not quite sure how I got where I am on a
given solution.  I began by reading through the M100 mail archive starting
at the bottom.  I found many, many references to TEENY in one form or
another.  References to LaddieCon and LaddieAlpha from about the middle on
up.  I think I even ended up reading a good interview article written about
the operators of the bitchin100.com site and the author of LaddieCon.
Don't remember how I got there.

What I did was pick a solution and go with it, i.e. TPDD emulator and a
TPDD client, and then adapt from there.  At the time, TEENY seemed to be a
good place to start.  Part of the fun for me is learning how to do things,
seeing how much experience I can pick up by trying different things, and
asking a question or two when I get stuck.  Which sometimes means I end up
traveling on a dead end street.  But that's OK because I like to drive.
With one question I've gotten a lot of great advice just this morning
which is clearing up some of the information fog for me.

Your suggestion for LaddieAlpha is on my list to explore.  I had originally
thought that LaddieCon wasn't recommended and LaddieAlpha was for Linux
only, but after you mentioned it I read the information you directed me to
more carefully and it's cross-platform.  So I'm now going "Ah Ha"!  Not
sure how I missed that.  Probably too many late nights, I guess.  It's hard
to read when I'm trying to see things.

Thanks for your help on this.

Jerry

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 8:27 AM Stephen Adolph  wrote:

> Jerry, why are you not using LaddieAlpha?  it is the most mature solution
> in my opinion, and it runs native on Windows 10?  I use it a lot.
>
> I would separate the "bootstrap" from the "usage".  Bootstrap is pretty
> easy. I just transfer a text version of Teeny..BA.  I don't bother with the
> injection aspect of Teeny.EXE on a PC at all anymore.
>
> ..Steve
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:20 AM Jerry Davis  wrote:
>
>> Justin, Georg, and Brian.  Many thanks for your assistance on this.  I'll
>> get the cable up to spec and verify physical layer is the way it's supposed
>> to be, try again, and report back.  I'll also test with mComm as that
>> appears to be a better way to get the client installed.
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:45 AM Brian K. White  wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/4/21 7:20 AM, Justin Poirier wrote:
>>> > Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start
>>> slow
>>> > and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work
>>> your
>>> > way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when I
>>> > go much past 2400.
>>>
>>> In general yes, but not for this.
>>>
>>> TEENY.EXE is hardcoded to run at the same speed as the TPDD which itself
>>> is hardwired to run at 19.2k. TEENY.EXE has it's own small delay between
>>> each character to dribble the bytes in slow enough even though the
>>> serial port is set to 19.2k, and,it uses a BASIC command to read the
>>> port raw without any screen updates.
>>>
>>> The most likely problem here is that TPDD requires more than just
>>> TX/RX/GND.
>>>
>>> At the very least, you  also need DTR shorted to DSR on the 100 end of
>>> the cable. TPDD clients look at DTR.
>>>
>>> Ideally, you should really use a fully wired up cable according to this
>>> chart, or, just buy one of the cables linked on that page. Those are all
>>> specifically wired and actually purchased and tested cables specifically
>>> for use between a 100 and a modern pc, be that with a real serial port
>>> or a usb adapter. And, at the bottom are likewise some specifically
>>> selected usb-serial adapters, and a description of what makes them
>>> special.:
>>> http://tandy.wiki/Model_T_Serial_Cable
>>>
>>> Lastly, you have a much better option than TEENY.EXE to install TEENY or
>>> TS-DOS onto a 100 from a Windows10 machine these days. If your modern
>>> machine is Windows or Android, then you should try mComm:
>>>
>>> http://www.club100.org/memfiles/index.php?=0==Kurt%20McCullum
>>>
>>> If your modern machine is linux or mac, then you should try dlplus
>>> https://github.com/bkw777/dlplus
>>>
>>> Those all have bootstrappers that can install TEENY or TS-DOS or even
>>> other things onto the 100.
>>>
>>> However TEENY.EXE does still work if you get a dos emulator set up right.
>>>
>>> Here is saved some notes about how to run dosbox (a dos emulator on
>>> linux) with the serial port config all specified right on the command
>>> line so no need to worry about config files.
>>>
>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/notes.txt
>>>
>>> dosbox -c "serial1 directserial realport:ttyUSB0" .
>>>
>>> (note, that " ." on the end is a necessary part of the command)
>>>
>>> You just download the dlarc.exe into a directory, run that doxbox
>>> command, and from inside that dos window, the C: drive will be the
>>> current dir you started in, and you can run dlarc to extract 

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Stephen Adolph]

here is teeny.BA in .DO (ascii) format for model 100/Tandy 102.
for completeness here they are for T200 and NEC as well.

transfer these via serial cable and run on the laptop.  It will create
Teeny.CO.

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:26 AM Stephen Adolph  wrote:

> Jerry, why are you not using LaddieAlpha?  it is the most mature solution
> in my opinion, and it runs native on Windows 10?  I use it a lot.
>
> I would separate the "bootstrap" from the "usage".  Bootstrap is pretty
> easy. I just transfer a text version of Teeny..BA.  I don't bother with the
> injection aspect of Teeny.EXE on a PC at all anymore.
>
> ..Steve
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:20 AM Jerry Davis  wrote:
>
>> Justin, Georg, and Brian.  Many thanks for your assistance on this.  I'll
>> get the cable up to spec and verify physical layer is the way it's supposed
>> to be, try again, and report back.  I'll also test with mComm as that
>> appears to be a better way to get the client installed.
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:45 AM Brian K. White  wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/4/21 7:20 AM, Justin Poirier wrote:
>>> > Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start
>>> slow
>>> > and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work
>>> your
>>> > way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when I
>>> > go much past 2400.
>>>
>>> In general yes, but not for this.
>>>
>>> TEENY.EXE is hardcoded to run at the same speed as the TPDD which itself
>>> is hardwired to run at 19.2k. TEENY.EXE has it's own small delay between
>>> each character to dribble the bytes in slow enough even though the
>>> serial port is set to 19.2k, and,it uses a BASIC command to read the
>>> port raw without any screen updates.
>>>
>>> The most likely problem here is that TPDD requires more than just
>>> TX/RX/GND.
>>>
>>> At the very least, you  also need DTR shorted to DSR on the 100 end of
>>> the cable. TPDD clients look at DTR.
>>>
>>> Ideally, you should really use a fully wired up cable according to this
>>> chart, or, just buy one of the cables linked on that page. Those are all
>>> specifically wired and actually purchased and tested cables specifically
>>> for use between a 100 and a modern pc, be that with a real serial port
>>> or a usb adapter. And, at the bottom are likewise some specifically
>>> selected usb-serial adapters, and a description of what makes them
>>> special.:
>>> http://tandy.wiki/Model_T_Serial_Cable
>>>
>>> Lastly, you have a much better option than TEENY.EXE to install TEENY or
>>> TS-DOS onto a 100 from a Windows10 machine these days. If your modern
>>> machine is Windows or Android, then you should try mComm:
>>>
>>> http://www.club100.org/memfiles/index.php?=0==Kurt%20McCullum
>>>
>>> If your modern machine is linux or mac, then you should try dlplus
>>> https://github.com/bkw777/dlplus
>>>
>>> Those all have bootstrappers that can install TEENY or TS-DOS or even
>>> other things onto the 100.
>>>
>>> However TEENY.EXE does still work if you get a dos emulator set up right.
>>>
>>> Here is saved some notes about how to run dosbox (a dos emulator on
>>> linux) with the serial port config all specified right on the command
>>> line so no need to worry about config files.
>>>
>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/notes.txt
>>>
>>> dosbox -c "serial1 directserial realport:ttyUSB0" .
>>>
>>> (note, that " ." on the end is a necessary part of the command)
>>>
>>> You just download the dlarc.exe into a directory, run that doxbox
>>> command, and from inside that dos window, the C: drive will be the
>>> current dir you started in, and you can run dlarc to extract itself and
>>> then run teeny.exe.
>>>
>>> Lastly... counter to what I said earlier, there IS actually a way to
>>> generate a special version of TEENY that doesn't care about DTR, but
>>> really, I don't recommend it. But, if you read the full teeny manual,
>>> it's in dlarc.exe but I have a copy here:
>>>
>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/teenydoc.txt
>>>
>>> It does give directions for how to run TEENY.EXE with a couple extra
>>> commandline flags that will generate a modified version of TEENY on the
>>> 100. But really, it makes no sense to even bother with that. Just make
>>> or buy a correct serial cable rather than do that. Not only will it work
>>> better, but there is no such special version of TS-DOS, and you want
>>> TS-DOS more than TEENY usually.
>>>
>>> --
>>> bkw
>>>
>>


TEENY1.DO
Description: Binary data


TEENY2.DO
Description: Binary data


TEENYN.DO
Description: Binary data

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Stephen Adolph]

Jerry, why are you not using LaddieAlpha?  it is the most mature solution
in my opinion, and it runs native on Windows 10?  I use it a lot.

I would separate the "bootstrap" from the "usage".  Bootstrap is pretty
easy. I just transfer a text version of Teeny..BA.  I don't bother with the
injection aspect of Teeny.EXE on a PC at all anymore.

..Steve

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:20 AM Jerry Davis  wrote:

> Justin, Georg, and Brian.  Many thanks for your assistance on this.  I'll
> get the cable up to spec and verify physical layer is the way it's supposed
> to be, try again, and report back.  I'll also test with mComm as that
> appears to be a better way to get the client installed.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Jerry
>
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:45 AM Brian K. White  wrote:
>
>> On 5/4/21 7:20 AM, Justin Poirier wrote:
>> > Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start
>> slow
>> > and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work your
>> > way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when I
>> > go much past 2400.
>>
>> In general yes, but not for this.
>>
>> TEENY.EXE is hardcoded to run at the same speed as the TPDD which itself
>> is hardwired to run at 19.2k. TEENY.EXE has it's own small delay between
>> each character to dribble the bytes in slow enough even though the
>> serial port is set to 19.2k, and,it uses a BASIC command to read the
>> port raw without any screen updates.
>>
>> The most likely problem here is that TPDD requires more than just
>> TX/RX/GND.
>>
>> At the very least, you  also need DTR shorted to DSR on the 100 end of
>> the cable. TPDD clients look at DTR.
>>
>> Ideally, you should really use a fully wired up cable according to this
>> chart, or, just buy one of the cables linked on that page. Those are all
>> specifically wired and actually purchased and tested cables specifically
>> for use between a 100 and a modern pc, be that with a real serial port
>> or a usb adapter. And, at the bottom are likewise some specifically
>> selected usb-serial adapters, and a description of what makes them
>> special.:
>> http://tandy.wiki/Model_T_Serial_Cable
>>
>> Lastly, you have a much better option than TEENY.EXE to install TEENY or
>> TS-DOS onto a 100 from a Windows10 machine these days. If your modern
>> machine is Windows or Android, then you should try mComm:
>>
>> http://www.club100.org/memfiles/index.php?=0==Kurt%20McCullum
>>
>> If your modern machine is linux or mac, then you should try dlplus
>> https://github.com/bkw777/dlplus
>>
>> Those all have bootstrappers that can install TEENY or TS-DOS or even
>> other things onto the 100.
>>
>> However TEENY.EXE does still work if you get a dos emulator set up right.
>>
>> Here is saved some notes about how to run dosbox (a dos emulator on
>> linux) with the serial port config all specified right on the command
>> line so no need to worry about config files.
>>
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/notes.txt
>>
>> dosbox -c "serial1 directserial realport:ttyUSB0" .
>>
>> (note, that " ." on the end is a necessary part of the command)
>>
>> You just download the dlarc.exe into a directory, run that doxbox
>> command, and from inside that dos window, the C: drive will be the
>> current dir you started in, and you can run dlarc to extract itself and
>> then run teeny.exe.
>>
>> Lastly... counter to what I said earlier, there IS actually a way to
>> generate a special version of TEENY that doesn't care about DTR, but
>> really, I don't recommend it. But, if you read the full teeny manual,
>> it's in dlarc.exe but I have a copy here:
>>
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/teenydoc.txt
>>
>> It does give directions for how to run TEENY.EXE with a couple extra
>> commandline flags that will generate a modified version of TEENY on the
>> 100. But really, it makes no sense to even bother with that. Just make
>> or buy a correct serial cable rather than do that. Not only will it work
>> better, but there is no such special version of TS-DOS, and you want
>> TS-DOS more than TEENY usually.
>>
>> --
>> bkw
>>
>

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Jerry Davis]

Justin, Georg, and Brian.  Many thanks for your assistance on this.  I'll
get the cable up to spec and verify physical layer is the way it's supposed
to be, try again, and report back.  I'll also test with mComm as that
appears to be a better way to get the client installed.

Thanks again!

Jerry


On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:45 AM Brian K. White  wrote:

> On 5/4/21 7:20 AM, Justin Poirier wrote:
> > Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start slow
> > and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work your
> > way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when I
> > go much past 2400.
>
> In general yes, but not for this.
>
> TEENY.EXE is hardcoded to run at the same speed as the TPDD which itself
> is hardwired to run at 19.2k. TEENY.EXE has it's own small delay between
> each character to dribble the bytes in slow enough even though the
> serial port is set to 19.2k, and,it uses a BASIC command to read the
> port raw without any screen updates.
>
> The most likely problem here is that TPDD requires more than just
> TX/RX/GND.
>
> At the very least, you  also need DTR shorted to DSR on the 100 end of
> the cable. TPDD clients look at DTR.
>
> Ideally, you should really use a fully wired up cable according to this
> chart, or, just buy one of the cables linked on that page. Those are all
> specifically wired and actually purchased and tested cables specifically
> for use between a 100 and a modern pc, be that with a real serial port
> or a usb adapter. And, at the bottom are likewise some specifically
> selected usb-serial adapters, and a description of what makes them
> special.:
> http://tandy.wiki/Model_T_Serial_Cable
>
> Lastly, you have a much better option than TEENY.EXE to install TEENY or
> TS-DOS onto a 100 from a Windows10 machine these days. If your modern
> machine is Windows or Android, then you should try mComm:
>
> http://www.club100.org/memfiles/index.php?=0==Kurt%20McCullum
>
> If your modern machine is linux or mac, then you should try dlplus
> https://github.com/bkw777/dlplus
>
> Those all have bootstrappers that can install TEENY or TS-DOS or even
> other things onto the 100.
>
> However TEENY.EXE does still work if you get a dos emulator set up right.
>
> Here is saved some notes about how to run dosbox (a dos emulator on
> linux) with the serial port config all specified right on the command
> line so no need to worry about config files.
>
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/notes.txt
>
> dosbox -c "serial1 directserial realport:ttyUSB0" .
>
> (note, that " ." on the end is a necessary part of the command)
>
> You just download the dlarc.exe into a directory, run that doxbox
> command, and from inside that dos window, the C: drive will be the
> current dir you started in, and you can run dlarc to extract itself and
> then run teeny.exe.
>
> Lastly... counter to what I said earlier, there IS actually a way to
> generate a special version of TEENY that doesn't care about DTR, but
> really, I don't recommend it. But, if you read the full teeny manual,
> it's in dlarc.exe but I have a copy here:
>
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/teenydoc.txt
>
> It does give directions for how to run TEENY.EXE with a couple extra
> commandline flags that will generate a modified version of TEENY on the
> 100. But really, it makes no sense to even bother with that. Just make
> or buy a correct serial cable rather than do that. Not only will it work
> better, but there is no such special version of TS-DOS, and you want
> TS-DOS more than TEENY usually.
>
> --
> bkw
>

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Brian K. White]

On 5/4/21 7:20 AM, Justin Poirier wrote:
Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start slow 
and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work your 
way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when I 
go much past 2400.


In general yes, but not for this.

TEENY.EXE is hardcoded to run at the same speed as the TPDD which itself 
is hardwired to run at 19.2k. TEENY.EXE has it's own small delay between 
each character to dribble the bytes in slow enough even though the 
serial port is set to 19.2k, and,it uses a BASIC command to read the 
port raw without any screen updates.


The most likely problem here is that TPDD requires more than just TX/RX/GND.

At the very least, you  also need DTR shorted to DSR on the 100 end of 
the cable. TPDD clients look at DTR.


Ideally, you should really use a fully wired up cable according to this 
chart, or, just buy one of the cables linked on that page. Those are all 
specifically wired and actually purchased and tested cables specifically 
for use between a 100 and a modern pc, be that with a real serial port 
or a usb adapter. And, at the bottom are likewise some specifically 
selected usb-serial adapters, and a description of what makes them special.:

http://tandy.wiki/Model_T_Serial_Cable

Lastly, you have a much better option than TEENY.EXE to install TEENY or 
TS-DOS onto a 100 from a Windows10 machine these days. If your modern 
machine is Windows or Android, then you should try mComm:

http://www.club100.org/memfiles/index.php?=0==Kurt%20McCullum

If your modern machine is linux or mac, then you should try dlplus
https://github.com/bkw777/dlplus

Those all have bootstrappers that can install TEENY or TS-DOS or even 
other things onto the 100.


However TEENY.EXE does still work if you get a dos emulator set up right.

Here is saved some notes about how to run dosbox (a dos emulator on 
linux) with the serial port config all specified right on the command 
line so no need to worry about config files.

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/notes.txt

dosbox -c "serial1 directserial realport:ttyUSB0" .

(note, that " ." on the end is a necessary part of the command)

You just download the dlarc.exe into a directory, run that doxbox 
command, and from inside that dos window, the C: drive will be the 
current dir you started in, and you can run dlarc to extract itself and 
then run teeny.exe.


Lastly... counter to what I said earlier, there IS actually a way to 
generate a special version of TEENY that doesn't care about DTR, but 
really, I don't recommend it. But, if you read the full teeny manual, 
it's in dlarc.exe but I have a copy here:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkw777/dlplus/master/clients/teeny/teenydoc.txt

It does give directions for how to run TEENY.EXE with a couple extra 
commandline flags that will generate a modified version of TEENY on the 
100. But really, it makes no sense to even bother with that. Just make 
or buy a correct serial cable rather than do that. Not only will it work 
better, but there is no such special version of TS-DOS, and you want 
TS-DOS more than TEENY usually.


--
bkw

Re: [M100] Question on TEENY.EXE

[Justin Poirier]

Just a quick reply, but when troubleshooting serial, I always start slow 
and work my speed up. Don't start at 19.2k. Start at 300, and work your 
way up. I've had mixed results across my Model 102/200 machines when I 
go much past 2400.


Second, not all USB-to-serial adapters are created equal. I work in an 
industry that still uses serial ports for many things, and I've run 
across some USB adapters that do not do true 25 volt signaling on 
RS-232, as defined by the spec. The models Ts expect "standard" voltages 
and have boost converters to generate them internally. Many USB adapter 
do not, and just run 5V serial, or boost up to 12, but will not do true 
RS-232 voltages, which will give you very different results than you are 
expecting.


But at the very least, start with a much lower baudrate.

--Justin


On 5/4/21 1:16 AM, Jerry Davis wrote:
Apologies for the long post.  My situation takes a little while to 
explain.


I have a Model 100 and a Dell Laptop with Windows 10 that I'm trying 
to use for file transfer from the M100.


The laptop does not have a physical serial port so I'm using a USB to 
Serial adapter and a DB-9 to DB-25 cable that I've pinned out for RX, 
TX, and GND.  Software flow control only.  No hardware handshaking.


I've tested the connection between my Windows 10 laptop and the M100 
using PUTTY.  I can set the USB Serial port to 19200,N,8,1 with 
software flow control and then set Term on the M100 to 98N1E.  When I 
type characters on the Windows 10 laptop, they show up on the M100.  
When I type characters on the M100, they show up on the Windows 10 
Laptop.  Serial connectivity appears to be good.


I can't run TEENY.EXE from a DOS window on Windows 10, so I've 
installed VirtualBox and created a VM, installed FreeDOS, and defined 
my USB serial adapter (COM4) as COM1 on the VM. On the FreeDOS 
instance, I set COM1 to 19200,N,8,1 using the mode command.  On the 
Model 100, I set Term to 98N1E.  When I echo text to COM1 on the 
FreeDOS VM, I see the text displayed on the Model 100.  When I use 
COM1 as input to the "type" command. I can enter text on the M100 and 
press CTRL-Z and the text shows up as expected on the FreeDOS VM.  
Serial connectivity between the M100 and the FreeDOS VM appears to be 
good.


When I execute the TEENY.EXE program and enter the BASIC RUN command 
on the M100 as directed, the result is always "Can't detect laptop".


I've used Term on the laptop to observe what TEENY.EXE is sending and 
what I get is a BASIC program that looks like:


0O%=PEEK(72):IFO%ANDPEEK(877)THENNEWELSECALL6117+SGN(O%)*311,128,-2469-SGN(O%)*1823:OUT206,17:OUT206,O%:OUT206,PEEK(877):RUN"COM:98N1ENN

When this BASIC program executes, what the M100 sends back to TEENY is 
two characters:  0x00 (ASCII NULL) followed by 0x31 (the ASCII '1').


After that I see nothing happening over the serial connection.  Then 
TEENY.EXE displays the error message "Can't detect laptop".  I believe 
that the BASIC program is getting all the way to the last RUN 
statement and is waiting for TEENY.EXE to send additional code.  But 
nothing appears to be happening.


I've done some searching in the archive for issues with TEENY just in 
case my problem has already been solved, but I was unsuccessful.  
Could be I'm not looking in the right place.


Is this a known issue with TEENY or perhaps there is something I'm 
doing wrong?


Many thanks in advance for any assistance!

Jerry