Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Jim Anderson]

> -Original Message-
> From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of
> jonathan.y...@telia.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2021 01:47
> To: m...@bitchin100.com
> Subject: Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
> 
> CAUTION External Sender: Do not click links or open attachments unless
> you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The web site at
> 
> https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgeoffg
> .net%2Fterminal.html&data=04%7C01%7CJim.Anderson%40kpu.ca%7C243eac70
> cb824a29a06f08d8bdf1744b%7C66b9f62d3042495eaab6db86f21500c0%7C0%7C0%7C63
> 7468192055341328%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l
> uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=B1ltiTld1tcwIf1LmP6
> 3MUhFIk%2FGWLo7Vo6Xs8TIqrI%3D&reserved=0
> 
> says
> 
> Graphics resolution is 480x288 pixels in VGA 25 line mode, 480x432
> pixels in VGA 36 line mode, 288x216 in PAL composite and 264x180 pixels
> in NTSC composite mode
> 
> but maybe that's not the whole story.

AFAIK it's outputting a signal at the 640x480 scan rate, but seems to be 
leaving some underscan space at least at the top and bottom, probably also the 
sides but it may also not be modulating the horizontal signal as fast as would 
be necessary to get 640 pixels across.

FYI the 480x288 figure is a bit misleading - for one thing, that's the 
resolution you have available to address when using extended line/box/circle 
drawing graphics codes.  For another, it is always drawing the characters using 
480x432 pixels whether you're in 24-line mode or 36-line mode, it's just that 
in order to simplify things Geoff Graham (the original designer of the board 
the MVT100 is based on) used the same font bitmap for both modes and 
implemented a very simple 2:3 scaling mechanism for 24-line mode (every 3rd 
scanline is a repeat of the one before it).

That's one of the reasons the font doesn't look great (why the middle element 
of the H is so thick, or why X looks so weird, among many other things).  The 
other contributing factor for most people is that they're displaying it on an 
LCD monitor which has to scale up from the 640x480 output signal.  Even if you 
have a modern OS output a 640x480 signal onto an LCD monitor, text is going to 
look terrible because of the scaling.  On a CRT monitor, it looks much better 
because it doesn't have to try to map signal pixels onto discrete display 
elements.

I started out offering Stephen a hand with creating the M100-specific extended 
character bitmaps for the MVT100 firmware, but while I was at it I modified a 
couple of the existing characters to make them easier to read (in particular, I 
found the original shapes of 6 and 9 to be difficult to distinguish from 8, for 
instance, and Q was just weird).  In the process of creating the bitmaps for 
the extended character set I realized Geoff's code was scaling up the font in a 
non-linear manner because weird things were happening (I wasn't getting 
on-screen exactly what I defined in the bitmap).

Because I'm a bit OCD and the font thing is bugging me, I'm making further 
modifications to improve the appearance of the text (defining a clean font for 
it to use in 24-line mode rather than scaling up the font used in 36-line 
mode), and while I was at it I started to wonder about the odd shape of some of 
the characters and whether it would be truer to the purpose of the MVT100 board 
to model the characters after the font used in the DVI instead of sticking with 
Geoff's characters.

I haven't seen the actual DVI display, though, so maybe that font is actually 
worse?  :)







jim

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Eric LK]

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 19:28:40 -0500
Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> Eric, thanks for pointing this out:

No problem Steve, I spent a lot of time playing with those when I was
a student :o)

I don't have a real vt100 to test, but I tried on putty and if you can
lock/unlock the last line (line 24 iirc) with ESC+[;23r and ESC+[;24r
, to prevent it to be overwritten when the text scrolls, it doesn't
survive a CLS :o(

Also the cursor position is reset, but something like
ESC+7+ESC+[;23r+ESC+8 should fix the issue (ESC+7/8 saves/restore the
cursor position)

> Other commands
> *lock and unlock scroll
> * delete line at cursor
> * insert blank line
>
> I scanned those codes again and did not see for example "delete line at
> cursor", which erases all characters in the line and scrolls the screen up
> at that line.

I found a clumsy way to emulate the "delete line" (you have to insert
the line number in the sequence) but couldn't think of anything for
the other commands.

If you have implemented them in the MVT100 firmware, I think that's
the best solution :o)

Eric

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[jonathan.y...@telia.com]

Hi,

The web site at 

https://geoffg.net/terminal.html

says 

Graphics resolution is 480x288 pixels in VGA 25 line mode, 480x432 pixels in 
VGA 36 line mode, 288x216 in PAL composite and 264x180 pixels in NTSC composite 
mode

but maybe that's not the whole story.

Using my chained adapters, I have no problem reading the screen if the 
horizontal resolution of the final device is around 1000.  My phone is 1080 x 
2160.  But I don't know which of the supported resolutions the converter is 
using.  It lists things from 800x600 up to 1920x1080.

I understand there are some standard resolutions for VGA, SVGA, and some 
'non-standard' ones.

Jonathan

>Ursprungligt meddelande
>Från : jim.ander...@kpu.ca
>Datum : 2021-01-21 - 06:51 (CEST)
>Till : m...@bitchin100.com
>Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
>
>> -Original Message-
>> I second that recommendation.  I've got exactly that unit and it works
>> perfectly with the M-100 running REXCPM, through an MVT100 and using VGA
>> input.
>
>I'm curious, how does the font look on that monitor?  I've tried a few 
>different LCDs and the one with the lowest resolution (1024x768) did the 
>poorest job of scaling and made the text simply awful.  Other LCDs with higher 
>resolution were not as bad, but still not great (imho) compared with a CRT.  
>I'm curious whether it was purely a problem of my LCD not having enough pixels 
>to be able to do a better job of scaling, or if it just used a really poor 
>scaling algorithm because it's old.  This LCD you're using has the same 
>horizontal resolution so I'm curious what it looks like.  If you could send a 
>photo of some text on the screen it would be great!  (If you don't want to 
>send to the list, just email me directly.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>jim
>
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Tom Wilson]

Rather than the PIC based terminal, why don't we work up a terminal on a Pi
Zero? There used to be a barebones terminal, but I think it needs to be
updated to work on the latest version of the Pi.


Tom Wilson
wilso...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311



On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jim Anderson  wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > I second that recommendation.  I've got exactly that unit and it works
> > perfectly with the M-100 running REXCPM, through an MVT100 and using VGA
> > input.
>
> I'm curious, how does the font look on that monitor?  I've tried a few
> different LCDs and the one with the lowest resolution (1024x768) did the
> poorest job of scaling and made the text simply awful.  Other LCDs with
> higher resolution were not as bad, but still not great (imho) compared with
> a CRT.  I'm curious whether it was purely a problem of my LCD not having
> enough pixels to be able to do a better job of scaling, or if it just used
> a really poor scaling algorithm because it's old.  This LCD you're using
> has the same horizontal resolution so I'm curious what it looks like.  If
> you could send a photo of some text on the screen it would be great!  (If
> you don't want to send to the list, just email me directly.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> jim
>
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Jim Anderson]

> -Original Message-
> I second that recommendation.  I've got exactly that unit and it works
> perfectly with the M-100 running REXCPM, through an MVT100 and using VGA
> input.

I'm curious, how does the font look on that monitor?  I've tried a few 
different LCDs and the one with the lowest resolution (1024x768) did the 
poorest job of scaling and made the text simply awful.  Other LCDs with higher 
resolution were not as bad, but still not great (imho) compared with a CRT.  
I'm curious whether it was purely a problem of my LCD not having enough pixels 
to be able to do a better job of scaling, or if it just used a really poor 
scaling algorithm because it's old.  This LCD you're using has the same 
horizontal resolution so I'm curious what it looks like.  If you could send a 
photo of some text on the screen it would be great!  (If you don't want to send 
to the list, just email me directly.)







jim

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

Eric, thanks for pointing this out:

---
We should be able to do this by setting the bottom margin of the
scrolling window using the DECSTBM escape sequence (
https://vt100.net/docs/vt100-ug/chapter3.html#DECSTBM ).

---
I didn't see that, and if I did it didn't go clunk.
so that code may address locking out line 8 and making it inaccessible.
Would have to read more to see if that is actually the same effect.

Other commands
*lock and unlock scroll
* delete line at cursor
* insert blank line

I scanned those codes again and did not see for example "delete line at
cursor", which erases all characters in the line and scrolls the screen up
at that line.

..Steve


   ; escape code mappings
   ;ModelT  extendedStock VT100
   ;--  ---
   ;double ESC trap X   eliminated in VT100 driver.
   ;home0BH [H
   ;cls 0CH [2J + [H
   ;lock line 8 T   [T
   ;unlock line 8   U   [U
   ;lock scroll V   [V
   ;unlock scroll   W   [W
   ;turn on cursor  P   [?25h
   ;turn off cursor Q   [?25l
   ;delete line@cursor  M   [M  
   ;insert blank line   L   [L
   ;erase to EOLK   [K
   ;set reverse charp   [7m
   ;reset reverse char  q   [0m
   ;cursor up   A   [A
   ;cursor down B   [B
   ;cursor rightC   [C
   ;cursor left D   [D
   ;erase to end of pageJ   [J
   ;set cursor location Y,c,r   [;f
   ;cls E   [2J + [H

   ;cls j   [2J + [H

   ;erase current line  I   [2K
   ;vertical tabH   [H





On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 6:49 PM Eric LK  wrote:

> Since we're thinking outside of the box, couldn't we replace the FTDI
> with a small arduino board?
> Something like an Arduino Micro or even a Digispark should do it.
>
> Then, it should be possible to convert the M100 additional ESC codes
> to their VT100 equivalent on the fly and we will just have:
> M100 ---> Arduino ---> Android tablet (that will only work with the
> BCR mod, but you could add a max232 if you want to use the serial port
> instead)
>
> If the Android OTG doesn't recognize the Arduino as a serial port, I
> suppose we could just add a Digispark between the FTDI and the M100:
> M100 ---> FTDI ---> Arduino ---> Android tablet.
>
> Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> > In M100 BASIC, you can lock the bottom row of the screen to show the
> > setting of the Function keys.   Such a function does not exist in
> standard
> > VT100.
>
> We should be able to do this by setting the bottom margin of the
> scrolling window using the DECSTBM escape sequence (
> https://vt100.net/docs/vt100-ug/chapter3.html#DECSTBM ).
>
>
> That being said, since I don't have a spare Android tablet, I think
> I'll go with a MVT100, a 7" LCD module from eBay (like this one:
>
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/7Inch-Lcd-Display-Module-mi-Vga-Socket-50Pin-1024X600-Ips-Monitor-Screen-K9W3/184527783134
> ) and some 3D printing.
>
> Since the LCD and the MVT100 will be very close, I think I can ditch
> the VGA connectors and cable,  and directly solder the MVT100 to the
> LCD controller board, which should make a compact solution.
>
> I'm hoping to build something comparable to the Omni128HQ monitor,
> which can be screwed under the M100 using the existing screw holes,
> but it will take some time before I can start looking into it (I need
> to fix my M100s first...).
> (
> https://retroradionics.co.uk/#!/OMNI-128HQ-LAPTOP-SCREEN/p/116017737/category=0
> )
>
> Eric
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Eric LK]

Since we're thinking outside of the box, couldn't we replace the FTDI
with a small arduino board?
Something like an Arduino Micro or even a Digispark should do it.

Then, it should be possible to convert the M100 additional ESC codes
to their VT100 equivalent on the fly and we will just have:
M100 ---> Arduino ---> Android tablet (that will only work with the
BCR mod, but you could add a max232 if you want to use the serial port
instead)

If the Android OTG doesn't recognize the Arduino as a serial port, I
suppose we could just add a Digispark between the FTDI and the M100:
M100 ---> FTDI ---> Arduino ---> Android tablet.

Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> In M100 BASIC, you can lock the bottom row of the screen to show the
> setting of the Function keys.   Such a function does not exist in standard
> VT100.

We should be able to do this by setting the bottom margin of the
scrolling window using the DECSTBM escape sequence (
https://vt100.net/docs/vt100-ug/chapter3.html#DECSTBM ).


That being said, since I don't have a spare Android tablet, I think
I'll go with a MVT100, a 7" LCD module from eBay (like this one:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/7Inch-Lcd-Display-Module-mi-Vga-Socket-50Pin-1024X600-Ips-Monitor-Screen-K9W3/184527783134
) and some 3D printing.

Since the LCD and the MVT100 will be very close, I think I can ditch
the VGA connectors and cable,  and directly solder the MVT100 to the
LCD controller board, which should make a compact solution.

I'm hoping to build something comparable to the Omni128HQ monitor,
which can be screwed under the M100 using the existing screw holes,
but it will take some time before I can start looking into it (I need
to fix my M100s first...).
(https://retroradionics.co.uk/#!/OMNI-128HQ-LAPTOP-SCREEN/p/116017737/category=0)

Eric

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Bert Put]

I second that recommendation.  I've got exactly that unit and it works
perfectly with the M-100 running REXCPM, through an MVT100 and using VGA
input.

Cheers,Bert

On 1/20/21 5:01 PM, ☼ wil lindsay ☼ wrote:
> If you're just looking for something small and flexible, I've had a lot
> of luck with these:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XQJVXHL
> They have VGA and composite input, and seem very tolerant of weak
> signals, such a s with a modified RCA Studio II. I've also stripped them
> and remounted them in other cases for various projects.
> Adafruit products are definitely documented better, but these are fairly
> straight forward for video projects.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:00 PM Hiraghm  > wrote:
> 
> I've been reading part of the thread about connecting the Model T to a
> tablet to get VGA with a MVT100 (not exactly sure what that is but I
> guess it's kind of like the DVI).
> 
> Has anybody thought of getting a display from Adafruit? They have
> displays everywhere from 2" to 7" that have HDMI input. They sell cases
> for their 7" screens, too, I think, but you could 3D print one with a
> stand and/or clip-on to your Model T.
> 
> I've a 5" 800 x 480 display I'm not using for anything else I might
> consider connecting... if I can figure out what a MVT100 is and/or how
> to build/acquire one.
> 
> 
> 

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[☼ wil lindsay ☼]

If you're just looking for something small and flexible, I've had a lot of
luck with these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XQJVXHL
They have VGA and composite input, and seem very tolerant of weak signals,
such a s with a modified RCA Studio II. I've also stripped them and
remounted them in other cases for various projects.
Adafruit products are definitely documented better, but these are fairly
straight forward for video projects.



On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:00 PM Hiraghm  wrote:

> I've been reading part of the thread about connecting the Model T to a
> tablet to get VGA with a MVT100 (not exactly sure what that is but I
> guess it's kind of like the DVI).
>
> Has anybody thought of getting a display from Adafruit? They have
> displays everywhere from 2" to 7" that have HDMI input. They sell cases
> for their 7" screens, too, I think, but you could 3D print one with a
> stand and/or clip-on to your Model T.
>
> I've a 5" 800 x 480 display I'm not using for anything else I might
> consider connecting... if I can figure out what a MVT100 is and/or how
> to build/acquire one.
>
>
>
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Hiraghm]

I've been reading part of the thread about connecting the Model T to a 
tablet to get VGA with a MVT100 (not exactly sure what that is but I 
guess it's kind of like the DVI).


Has anybody thought of getting a display from Adafruit? They have 
displays everywhere from 2" to 7" that have HDMI input. They sell cases 
for their 7" screens, too, I think, but you could 3D print one with a 
stand and/or clip-on to your Model T.


I've a 5" 800 x 480 display I'm not using for anything else I might 
consider connecting... if I can figure out what a MVT100 is and/or how 
to build/acquire one.

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[jonathan.y...@telia.com]

Hi,
Yes I realize that the stock vt100 emulation doesn't support the m100 escape 
codes.  I've only done this with rexcpm and it's a patched version of wordstar 
that intercepts the m100 cursor keys and gets the program to do what one 
expects.  I actually haven't gotten around to using the more m100-specific 
things, probably because I was so familiar with cpm .
Jonathan
Ursprungligt meddelande
Från : twospru...@gmail.com
Datum : 2021-01-20 - 15:59 (CEST)
Till : m...@bitchin100.com
Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
 Jonathan,
 
  
  
   The difference is that your use case is this:
  
  
   'M100 (CP/M) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC'  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   (that is to say, I think you are running M100CP/M on REXCPM)
  
  
   
  
  
   In this case, stock VT100 works fine because there are no custom M100 ESC 
codes.
  
  
   
  
  
   Just to reiterate, 
  
  
   If the goal is to extend the native M100 OS to leverage external video, then 
you have to have an external video solution that can cope with the necessary 6 
additional ESC codes.
  
  
   
  
  
   Here is an example of why.
  
  
   In M100 BASIC, you can lock the bottom row of the screen to show the setting 
of the Function keys.   Such a function does not exist in standard VT100.
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   ..Steve
  
 
 
  On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 9:47 AM 
  jonathan.y...@telia.com <
  jonathan.y...@telia.com> wrote:
  
 
 
  
   Hello,
  
  
   
  
  
   I think a lot of the terminal emulation programs for a PC already emulate a 
VT100.
   
  
  
   
  
  
   I did the 'M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC' just 
for fun, using minicom under linux.  This worked just fine, the normal 'xterm' 
under linux is vt100 compatible, so I could run wordstar or supercalc on the 
m100, and look at the output on an xterm with minicom running under xwindows.  
Not sure WHY I would do that, but I realized that it should work and it was 
just a matter of plugging in the FTDI serial device to a usb port on the  
computer. I bootstrapped the rexcpm using minicom to upload the rxcini.do file.
   
  
  
   
  
  
   A custom app for android that could interpret the vt100 codes would save a 
lot of hardware.  Would be even nicer if it could switch to the m100 codes but 
I imagine the number of people that would use that aspect is rather limited. 
   
  Since I generally use mcomm to put things in and out of the m100, a custom 
app would use the same hardware--basically just the FTDI adapter and the right 
cables.
  
  
   
  
  
   I haven't uploaded any pictures of this because it is kind of a mess with 
cables and adapters running all over the place.  I'm starting to think about 
custom-made USB power cables just to reduce the tangle.
   
  
  
   
  
  
   Jonathan
   
  
  
   Ursprungligt meddelande
   
Från : 
   twospru...@gmail.com
   
Datum : 2021-01-20 - 13:32 (CEST)
   
Till : 
   m...@bitchin100.com
   
Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
   
   
   

 


  Thanks Jonathan, very cool. Stitching it together like that is a nice 
combination of solutions. 


 


  So this is more representative- 
 


  M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  
RS-232--->MVT100--->VGA>converter--->HDMI >video capture --> 
USB--->tablet 


 


 
   This might be possible with a new app (like a VT100 terminal app + 6 
custom ESC codes)- 
  
 
 
   M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->tablet 
 
 
  
 
 
   This is also a possibility, with a new application (like a VT100 
terminal app + 6 custom ESC codes) - 
 
 
   M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->PC 
 
 
   M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC 
 
 
  
 
 
   This being the 'standard' MVT100 adapter approach- 
 
 
   M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->MVT100-->VGA--> VGA monitor 
 
 
  
 
 
  
 

   
   
  
  
  
 

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

Jonathan,

The difference is that your use case is this:
'M100 (CP/M) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC'

(that is to say, I think you are running M100CP/M on REXCPM)

In this case, stock VT100 works fine because there are no custom M100 ESC
codes.

Just to reiterate,
If the goal is to extend the native M100 OS to leverage external video,
then you have to have an external video solution that can cope with the
necessary 6 additional ESC codes.

Here is an example of why.
In M100 BASIC, you can lock the bottom row of the screen to show the
setting of the Function keys.   Such a function does not exist in standard
VT100.


..Steve

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 9:47 AM jonathan.y...@telia.com <
jonathan.y...@telia.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I think a lot of the terminal emulation programs for a PC already emulate
> a VT100.
>
> I did the 'M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC'
> just for fun, using minicom under linux.  This worked just fine, the normal
> 'xterm' under linux is vt100 compatible, so I could run wordstar or
> supercalc on the m100, and look at the output on an xterm with minicom
> running under xwindows.  Not sure WHY I would do that, but I realized that
> it should work and it was just a matter of plugging in the FTDI serial
> device to a usb port on the  computer. I bootstrapped the rexcpm using
> minicom to upload the rxcini.do file.
>
> A custom app for android that could interpret the vt100 codes would save a
> lot of hardware.  Would be even nicer if it could switch to the m100 codes
> but I imagine the number of people that would use that aspect is rather
> limited.
> Since I generally use mcomm to put things in and out of the m100, a custom
> app would use the same hardware--basically just the FTDI adapter and the
> right cables.
>
> I haven't uploaded any pictures of this because it is kind of a mess with
> cables and adapters running all over the place.  I'm starting to think
> about custom-made USB power cables just to reduce the tangle.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ----Ursprungligt meddelande
> Från : twospru...@gmail.com
> Datum : 2021-01-20 - 13:32 (CEST)
> Till : m...@bitchin100.com
> Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
>
>
> Thanks Jonathan, very cool. Stitching it together like that is a nice
> combination of solutions.
>
> So this is more representative-
> M100 (with VT100 driver) --->
> RS-232--->MVT100--->VGA>converter--->HDMI >video capture -->
> USB--->tablet
>
> This might be possible with a new app (like a VT100 terminal app + 6
> custom ESC codes)-
> M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->tablet
>
> This is also a possibility, with a new application (like a VT100 terminal
> app + 6 custom ESC codes) -
> M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->PC
> M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC
>
> This being the 'standard' MVT100 adapter approach-
> M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->MVT100-->VGA--> VGA monitor
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[jonathan.y...@telia.com]

Hello,
I think a lot of the terminal emulation programs for a PC already emulate a 
VT100.
I did the 'M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC' just 
for fun, using minicom under linux.  This worked just fine, the normal 'xterm' 
under linux is vt100 compatible, so I could run wordstar or supercalc on the 
m100, and look at the output on an xterm with minicom running under xwindows.  
Not sure WHY I would do that, but I realized that it should work and it was 
just a matter of plugging in the FTDI serial device to a usb port on the  
computer. I bootstrapped the rexcpm using minicom to upload the rxcini.do file.
A custom app for android that could interpret the vt100 codes would save a lot 
of hardware.  Would be even nicer if it could switch to the m100 codes but I 
imagine the number of people that would use that aspect is rather limited. 
Since I generally use mcomm to put things in and out of the m100, a custom app 
would use the same hardware--basically just the FTDI adapter and the right 
cables.
I haven't uploaded any pictures of this because it is kind of a mess with 
cables and adapters running all over the place.  I'm starting to think about 
custom-made USB power cables just to reduce the tangle.
Jonathan
Ursprungligt meddelande
Från : twospru...@gmail.com
Datum : 2021-01-20 - 13:32 (CEST)
Till : m...@bitchin100.com
Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
 
  
 
 
  Thanks Jonathan, very cool. Stitching it together like that is a nice 
combination of solutions.
 
 
  
 
 
  So this is more representative-
  
 
 
   M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->MVT100--->VGA>converter--->HDMI 
>video capture --> USB--->tablet 
 
 
  
 
 
  
   This might be possible with a new app (like a VT100 terminal app + 6 custom 
ESC codes)-
   
  
  
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->tablet 
  
  
   
  
  
   This is also a possibility, with a new application (like a VT100 terminal 
app + 6 custom ESC codes) -
  
  
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->PC
  
  
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC
  
  
   
  
  
   This being the 'standard' MVT100 adapter approach-
  
  
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->MVT100-->VGA--> VGA monitor
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
 

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

Thanks Jonathan, very cool. Stitching it together like that is a nice
combination of solutions.

So this is more representative-
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->
RS-232--->MVT100--->VGA>converter--->HDMI >video capture -->
USB--->tablet

This might be possible with a new app (like a VT100 terminal app + 6 custom
ESC codes)-
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->tablet

This is also a possibility, with a new application (like a VT100 terminal
app + 6 custom ESC codes) -
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->PC
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->FTDI --> USB--->PC

This being the 'standard' MVT100 adapter approach-
M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->MVT100-->VGA--> VGA monitor

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[jonathan.y...@telia.com]

Hello All,
I tried this just now but I can't seem to find a 'free' android app that 
supports serial stuff (like an FTDI chip connected via usb) and is vt100 
compatible.  One can have either but not both, or one pays.  Found one that 
costs a bit but I wasn't sure how well it was supported so I passed on that.  
The FTDI converter I have plus the tablet in host mode could take the output 
from the M100 running CPM and displayed the regular characters sent.
So if you're willing to put up with just plain text (back space and even tabs 
didn't even work) a serial app on android (I used one called Serial USB 
Terminal) does work.  You could play adventure but no backspace.  Tried an FTDI 
app that was a bit old and it worked as well.  There may be something hidden 
somewhere that allows VT100 codes to be interpreted OK but I haven't found them 
yet.
There were some apps that claimed compatibility with winmodem and bluetooth 
devices together with vt100 compatibility but I don't have any of that hardware 
so I couldn't test them.
Back to the VGA-->HDMI capture --> tablet tests, I swapped the tablet for my 
Nokia 7 plus and it was also OK.  I could even read the screen of the 
phone--wordstar being displayed on my phone!!
Jonathan
Ursprungligt meddelande
Från : jho...@pobox.com
Datum : 2021-01-19 - 20:40 (CEST)
Till : m...@bitchin100.com
Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
 
  It seems like the most straightforward way to do that would be a VT100 
terminal app and a USB-serial adapter that works with the android tablet. But 
then it wouldn't use the MVT100.
  
  
Would that work? Would it lose any functionality?
  
  
   
  
  
   -- John.
  
 

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[jonathan.y...@telia.com]

Hello,
Yes, the description Stephen have below basically is what I did.  I don't know 
useful it would be to describe what I bought, since (with Brexit) I try as hard 
as possible to buy things from Swedish or European sellers, but I bought a 
VGA-to hdmi adapter (this might be the one I bought but I thought I paid half)
https://www.24.se/ljud-bild-foto/kablar-kontakter/tvprojektor-kablar/videoadapter-hdmi-till-vga-ljud
The hdmi to tablet thing was fairly well documented in the article on Tom's 
hardware.
https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/use-android-tablet-raspberry-pi-screen
I wanted to do this not only for the MVT100 solution but to use it with a pi, 
but it also worked for the hdmi output from my sony laptop (an old vaio) and 
even my Sony A7 camera.  I used an hdmi capture device that could be this one 
(once again a Swedish site but you get the general idea)
https://www.24.se/datortillbehor/datortillbehor/ovriga-datortillbehor/video-capture-usb-3-0
The tablet I used is a Samsung SM-T380, and this I bought in the US for my 
mother but she thought it was too slippery and wanted to keep her old one, so 
it ended up travelling to Sweden.  This device needs to support host mode, so 
there is a short cable from USB-C (on the tablet) to a USB-A socket (where the 
hdmi capture device gets plugged in).  An hdmi cable connects the capture 
device and the vga-to-hdmi converter, and the vga converted is plugged into the 
MVT100.  You need some app on the android tablet, and the one in the Tom's 
Hardware article worked OK.  There are others, some with a lot of ads.
As I mentioned, the 'hdmi output displayed on the tablet' was great for the 
raspberry pi, and even for my Sony A7 camera.  
As far as running a vt100 app directly in the tablet, that did cross my mind 
but I didn't think such an app existed.  I have something in my android phone 
that gives me a command line interface, and I have used it to ssh into other 
machines, but I couldn't figure out how to get it to ssh to the serial adapter. 
 After John's message, I looked, and sure enough, there is one that supposedly 
can emulate a vt100 connected to a serial adapter (and they listed all the 
usual ones).  Now I have to try this out as well.  I'll  probably get some 
strange looks again
Jonathan
Ursprungligt meddelande
Från : twospru...@gmail.com
Datum : 2021-01-20 - 04:11 (CEST)
Till : m...@bitchin100.com
Ämne : Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions
 
  sounds like Jonathan has a solution in progress.
 
 
  
 
 
  M100 (with VT100 driver) --->  RS-232--->MVT100--->VGA>converter--->HDMI 
>tablet
 
 
  
 
 
  At least I think that is what is going on.  If it works, you could use the 
video commands that worked with Disk Video Interface, running on the Tablet as 
a display.
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 9:09 PM Chris Fezzler <
  fezz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
  
 
 
  
   


 This is interesting but over my head.  I have an old Google Nexus 7 
gathering dust.  Can I use it as an monitor for a Model T?


 

   
   

 
   On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 03:39:29 PM EST, Kenneth Pettit <
  petti...@gmail.com> wrote: 
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
   
I’ve actually stripped out the Model T logic from VirtualT and used the 
framework for other apps twice now

 


 Ken
 
 
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
 
  
   
   
On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:10 PM, Stephen Adolph <
twospru...@gmail.com> wrote:


   
  
 
 
  
   


 WRT using Virtual T - I just meant the framework.  strip out 
Virtual T and replace with a new application that uses all the same tool kit.
 
  
 
 
  After all it is the only thing I know how to do!
 



 
  On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis <
  jho...@pobox.com> wrote:
  
 
 
  
   

   
   
   

 On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph <
 twospru...@gmail.com> wrote:
 


 
  I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app 
that implements the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
  
   Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.
  
  
   
  
 

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Chris Fezzler]

 This is interesting but over my head.  I have an old Google Nexus 7 gathering 
dust.  Can I use it as an monitor for a Model T?
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 03:39:29 PM EST, Kenneth Pettit 
 wrote:  
 
 I’ve actually stripped out the Model T logic from VirtualT and used the 
framework for other apps twice now
Ken

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:10 PM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:



WRT using Virtual T - I just meant the framework.  strip out Virtual T and 
replace with a new application that uses all the same tool kit.
After all it is the only thing I know how to do!
On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:



On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph  wrote:

I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that implements the 
custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.Was thinking to use the 
VirtualT framework to do it also.


VT100 is an industry standard so I don't know about M100 control codes. I think 
you had mentioned something about arrow keys being different in the current 
implementation. Which control codes are you referring to? The whole set of 
Model 100 escapes?

Which is fine... that's one way to go and it can be implemented exactly. It 
just isn't VT100.

The other issue is encoding and fonts. HTERM does this mapping on the Model T 
side, which makes it compatible with any shell/terminal. But you could also do 
a mapping to Unicode on the terminal side. Then you could use off-the-shelf 
fonts.

Another way to go would be to render the display completely yourself with 
graphics based on the Model 102 character set. Then you could get very high 
fidelity. 
As to VT, it's just a terminal, so you don't need 99% of what VT does. And what 
VT does do that you need, like rendering the display, has to pass through the 
Model T ROM and 8085 emulation. And it's limited to 40x8. Seems like it creates 
more problems than it solves. Just displaying character bitmaps to the screen 
is a simpler task.

-- John.


  

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

sounds like Jonathan has a solution in progress.

M100 (with VT100 driver) --->
RS-232--->MVT100--->VGA>converter--->HDMI >tablet

At least I think that is what is going on.  If it works, you could use the
video commands that worked with Disk Video Interface, running on the Tablet
as a display.



On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 9:09 PM Chris Fezzler  wrote:

> This is interesting but over my head.  I have an old Google Nexus 7
> gathering dust.  Can I use it as an monitor for a Model T?
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 03:39:29 PM EST, Kenneth Pettit <
> petti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I’ve actually stripped out the Model T logic from VirtualT and used the
> framework for other apps twice now
>
> Ken
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:10 PM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:
>
> 
> WRT using Virtual T - I just meant the framework.  strip out Virtual T and
> replace with a new application that uses all the same tool kit.
>
> After all it is the only thing I know how to do!
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph 
> wrote:
>
> I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that implements
> the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
> Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.
>
>
> VT100 is an industry standard so I don't know about M100 control codes. I
> think you had mentioned something about arrow keys being different in the
> current implementation. Which control codes are you referring to? The whole
> set of Model 100 escapes?
>
> Which is fine... that's one way to go and it can be implemented exactly.
> It just isn't VT100.
>
> The other issue is encoding and fonts. HTERM does this mapping on the
> Model T side, which makes it compatible with any shell/terminal. But you
> could also do a mapping to Unicode on the terminal side. Then you could
> use off-the-shelf fonts.
>
> Another way to go would be to render the display completely yourself with
> graphics based on the Model 102 character set. Then you could get very high
> fidelity.
>
> As to VT, it's just a terminal, so you don't need 99% of what VT does. And
> what VT does do that you need, like rendering the display, has to pass
> through the Model T ROM and 8085 emulation. And it's limited to 40x8. Seems
> like it creates more problems than it solves. Just displaying character
> bitmaps to the screen is a simpler task.
>
> -- John.
>
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Kenneth Pettit]

I’ve actually stripped out the Model T logic from VirtualT and used the 
framework for other apps twice now

Ken

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:10 PM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> 
> 
> WRT using Virtual T - I just meant the framework.  strip out Virtual T and 
> replace with a new application that uses all the same tool kit.
> 
> After all it is the only thing I know how to do!
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph  
>>> wrote:
>>> I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that implements 
>>> the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
>>> Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.
>>> 
>> 
>> VT100 is an industry standard so I don't know about M100 control codes. I 
>> think you had mentioned something about arrow keys being different in the 
>> current implementation. Which control codes are you referring to? The whole 
>> set of Model 100 escapes?
>> 
>> Which is fine... that's one way to go and it can be implemented exactly. It 
>> just isn't VT100.
>> 
>> The other issue is encoding and fonts. HTERM does this mapping on the Model 
>> T side, which makes it compatible with any shell/terminal. But you could 
>> also do a mapping to Unicode on the terminal side. Then you could use 
>> off-the-shelf fonts.
>> 
>> Another way to go would be to render the display completely yourself with 
>> graphics based on the Model 102 character set. Then you could get very high 
>> fidelity. 
>> 
>> As to VT, it's just a terminal, so you don't need 99% of what VT does. And 
>> what VT does do that you need, like rendering the display, has to pass 
>> through the Model T ROM and 8085 emulation. And it's limited to 40x8. Seems 
>> like it creates more problems than it solves. Just displaying character 
>> bitmaps to the screen is a simpler task.
>> 
>> -- John.

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[John R. Hogerhuis]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 12:10 PM Stephen Adolph 
wrote:

> WRT using Virtual T - I just meant the framework.  strip out Virtual T and
> replace with a new application that uses all the same tool kit.
>
>>
>>
Ah. It uses FLTK.

-- John.

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

WRT using Virtual T - I just meant the framework.  strip out Virtual T and
replace with a new application that uses all the same tool kit.

After all it is the only thing I know how to do!

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph 
> wrote:
>
>> I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that
>> implements the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
>> Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.
>>
>>
> VT100 is an industry standard so I don't know about M100 control codes. I
> think you had mentioned something about arrow keys being different in the
> current implementation. Which control codes are you referring to? The whole
> set of Model 100 escapes?
>
> Which is fine... that's one way to go and it can be implemented exactly.
> It just isn't VT100.
>
> The other issue is encoding and fonts. HTERM does this mapping on the
> Model T side, which makes it compatible with any shell/terminal. But you
> could also do a mapping to Unicode on the terminal side. Then you could
> use off-the-shelf fonts.
>
> Another way to go would be to render the display completely yourself with
> graphics based on the Model 102 character set. Then you could get very high
> fidelity.
>
> As to VT, it's just a terminal, so you don't need 99% of what VT does. And
> what VT does do that you need, like rendering the display, has to pass
> through the Model T ROM and 8085 emulation. And it's limited to 40x8. Seems
> like it creates more problems than it solves. Just displaying character
> bitmaps to the screen is a simpler task.
>
> -- John.
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

Model T software compatibility requires 6 additional control codes beyond
what is implemented in VT100.

Agreed it isn't VT100.

If you want to use the integrated "DVI" functionality (maybe VT100 driver
is a bad name)  then you need the screen solution to handle the special ESC
codes.  See below.

Anyways my idea is to make an "extended VT100 terminal" as a windows /
linux application.  It would be a DVI work alike, and disk basic could
drive it correctly.  Today, without the extra escape codes, you just can't
display the screen correctly for TEXT and BASIC.

..Steve

 ; escape code mappings
   ;ModelT  extendedStock VT100
   ;--  ---
   ;double ESC trap X   eliminated in VT100 driver.
   ;home0BH [H
   ;cls 0CH [2J + [H
   ;lock line 8 T   [T
   ;unlock line 8   U   [U
   ;lock scroll V   [V
   ;unlock scroll   W   [W
   ;turn on cursor  P   [?25h
   ;turn off cursor Q   [?25l
   ;delete line@cursor  M   [M  
   ;insert blank line   L   [L
   ;erase to EOLK   [K
   ;set reverse charp   [7m
   ;reset reverse char  q   [0m
   ;cursor up   A   [A
   ;cursor down B   [B
   ;cursor rightC   [C
   ;cursor left D   [D
   ;erase to end of pageJ   [J
   ;set cursor location Y,c,r   [;f
   ;cls E   [2J + [H

   ;cls j   [2J + [H

   ;erase current line  I   [2K
   ;vertical tabH   [H




On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph 
> wrote:
>
>> I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that
>> implements the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
>> Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.
>>
>>
> VT100 is an industry standard so I don't know about M100 control codes. I
> think you had mentioned something about arrow keys being different in the
> current implementation. Which control codes are you referring to? The whole
> set of Model 100 escapes?
>
> Which is fine... that's one way to go and it can be implemented exactly.
> It just isn't VT100.
>
> The other issue is encoding and fonts. HTERM does this mapping on the
> Model T side, which makes it compatible with any shell/terminal. But you
> could also do a mapping to Unicode on the terminal side. Then you could
> use off-the-shelf fonts.
>
> Another way to go would be to render the display completely yourself with
> graphics based on the Model 102 character set. Then you could get very high
> fidelity.
>
> As to VT, it's just a terminal, so you don't need 99% of what VT does. And
> what VT does do that you need, like rendering the display, has to pass
> through the Model T ROM and 8085 emulation. And it's limited to 40x8. Seems
> like it creates more problems than it solves. Just displaying character
> bitmaps to the screen is a simpler task.
>
> -- John.
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[John R. Hogerhuis]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Stephen Adolph 
wrote:

> I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that implements
> the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
> Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.
>
>
VT100 is an industry standard so I don't know about M100 control codes. I
think you had mentioned something about arrow keys being different in the
current implementation. Which control codes are you referring to? The whole
set of Model 100 escapes?

Which is fine... that's one way to go and it can be implemented exactly. It
just isn't VT100.

The other issue is encoding and fonts. HTERM does this mapping on the Model
T side, which makes it compatible with any shell/terminal. But you could
also do a mapping to Unicode on the terminal side. Then you could
use off-the-shelf fonts.

Another way to go would be to render the display completely yourself with
graphics based on the Model 102 character set. Then you could get very high
fidelity.

As to VT, it's just a terminal, so you don't need 99% of what VT does. And
what VT does do that you need, like rendering the display, has to pass
through the Model T ROM and 8085 emulation. And it's limited to 40x8. Seems
like it creates more problems than it solves. Just displaying character
bitmaps to the screen is a simpler task.

-- John.

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

I am actually thinking about exactly that, a new VT100 app that implements
the custom M100 control codes, and takes serial data.
Was thinking to use the VirtualT framework to do it also.

Steve

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:41 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:

> It seems like the most straightforward way to do that would be a VT100
> terminal app and a USB-serial adapter that works with the android tablet.
> But then it wouldn't use the MVT100.
>
> Would that work? Would it lose any functionality?
>
> -- John.
>

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[John R. Hogerhuis]

It seems like the most straightforward way to do that would be a VT100
terminal app and a USB-serial adapter that works with the android tablet.
But then it wouldn't use the MVT100.

Would that work? Would it lose any functionality?

-- John.

Re: [M100] vga monitor solutions

[Stephen Adolph]

hey that is interesting. I was trying to sort out something like that
myself.  can you elaborate a bit on the parts you are using?

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:15 AM jonathan.y...@telia.com <
jonathan.y...@telia.com> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I was looking for a smaller, perhaps battery powered vga monitor to use
> the my mvt100 that I connect to my M100.  Then I saw an article last month
> on Tom's Hardware about using an android tablet as a monitor on a raspberry
> pi.  That's nice, I thought, but I need vga.  Then I remembered seeing a
> vga to hdmi adapter, so after some internet purchases and a short hdmi
> cable, I can use my not-so-old samsung tablet as a monitor for my m100.
> Rather weird watching cpm and wordstar start up on the tablet!  Just need
> to figure out a neater arrangement with power cables.  The hdmi capture
> dongle takes its power from the tablet but the vga to hdmi thing needs 5v,
> via a micro-usb connector.
>
> Jonathan
>