Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Paul Bloch]

It's not a haiku, it's a slippery slope fallacy.

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 17:26 +, Darius Jack wrote:
>> Nothing is automatic on the Internet.
>> That's you, moderator, administrator, operator, setting the terms.
>> That's you cutting the thread off.
>> Today you set 20 kb limit, tommorow 10kb, next week 1line input.
>> Long live democracy.
>>
>> Your money, your business, your terms.
>> But please don't call me a community.
>> I use Google Groups and there is no limit on thread size.
>> A good practice is to follow full thread,
>> no pre-editing, no cutt offs, no moderation
>>
>> One day you speak about a community
>> and another day you show me who is the ruler.
>> Bye bye my fiends, no more communities of developers governed by
>> moderators.
>> Nokia , shame on you, financing community governed by moderators.
>>
>> One day 20kb limit is in operation.
>> Tommorrow 10kb, next week 1 line is allowed.
>> Or better. No-reply-discussions.
>
> That's not even a Haiku.
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.murrayc.com
> www.openismus.com
>
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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Murray Cumming]

On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 17:26 +, Darius Jack wrote:
> Nothing is automatic on the Internet.
> That's you, moderator, administrator, operator, setting the terms.
> That's you cutting the thread off.
> Today you set 20 kb limit, tommorow 10kb, next week 1line input.
> Long live democracy.
> 
> Your money, your business, your terms.
> But please don't call me a community.
> I use Google Groups and there is no limit on thread size.
> A good practice is to follow full thread,
> no pre-editing, no cutt offs, no moderation
> 
> One day you speak about a community
> and another day you show me who is the ruler.
> Bye bye my fiends, no more communities of developers governed by
> moderators.
> Nokia , shame on you, financing community governed by moderators.
> 
> One day 20kb limit is in operation.
> Tommorrow 10kb, next week 1 line is allowed.
> Or better. No-reply-discussions.

That's not even a Haiku.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.murrayc.com
www.openismus.com

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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Allen Brown]

I think you will find that quarterly elections are too frequent.
Everyone will burn out on voting.  Yearly or by halves.
-- 
Allen Brown
http://brown.armoredpenguin.com/~abrown

> Hey guys,
> So Maemo, as we all feel has enormous potential and we all feel
> investment in making things work out for the best.  So instead of each
> taking a side, why not find a better solution than what people are
> envisioning from a position of separation.  Because obviously there
> are pros and cons to both scenarios.  Direction given by passionate
> members can help steer things in the right direction or stifle it (a
> la gimp).  And sometimes mob rule is horrible because there is no room
> to innovate outside people's expectations.  So obviously you are both
> right here.  Please don't bicker on the list, it brings the
> conversation lower and turns a thread into a flame.  I try to read all
> of these mails and I prefer when things are in the positive.  That's
> what keeps me motivated and everyone motivated to contribute.  Keeping
> up morale is a big deal, especially in the floss world.  What about a
> democratically elected council that is renewed every quarter?  Or
> using a "flex/flow" organizational model like holacracy as I has put
> forth for recommendation?  I think roles are very important, and they
> keep people focused and in the right kind of relationship with each
> other.  I like the idea of a dynamic social network of passionate
> contributors, how can we create that?
>
> It's important to think about the "picture" of the future because then
> we can all contribute to that picture.  So why not paint the most
> incredible thing we can envision and find out how to get there?
> That's how scenario planners and futurists work with corporations.
> And I think we can all recognize great products that come out of great
> teams, and usually those teams are formed by a common context and
> vision.
>
> Can't we all just get along? ;)
>
> -Paul
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> hi,
>>
>> you are completely wrong.
>> I always and ever speak for myself.
>>
>> "
>>
>> he wants to speak for them all
>> "
>> NO NO NO
>> (see above)
>>
>> There is a serious problem at maemo, as some guys from maemo
>> don't need any community, any open discussion, any collaboration.
>> What they need is power.
>>
>> Yesterday one guy from maemo said
>> "communities need moderators"
>> .
>> Open free source software developers don't need moderators.
>> What I develop and test is multitouch solutions, gesture recognition,
>> new user-computer interfaces and the like.
>> There is no place at maemo for such work, solutions.
>> I tried to subscribe to developers section at Maemo 3 times
>> and 3 times server generated nothing what could let me in.
>> So I gave up, still working at some other places.
>> I don't need moderators from maemo to control what I
>>  should work on.
>>
>> Managing Multimedia Magazines at Google
>> I don't need third party moderators
>> as it's me who can hold a position of a moderator.
>>
>> Fight for leadership at Maemo is what kills Maemo
>> and any idea of Nokia to have Maemo to work
>> for the benefit of Nokia.
>>
>> Get real man, there are hundreds of hot places globe-wide,
>> you an develop your ideas, projects, solutions in nice
>> association, no moderators, full democracy
>> and you an still say NO for Maemo Community Council
>> not hurting anyone.
>>
>>
>> Darius
>> http://groups.google.com/group/metallica4you/web/magazines?hl=en
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 13/6/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
>> Council
>> To: maemo-developers@maemo.org
>> Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 9:18 PM
>>
>>>> Any activities by communities financed, sponsored, donated by Nokia
>>>> or other corporations, must follow the basic goal of the corporation.
>>>
>>> In general yes, and here the community adds value to Nokia. So there
>>> should be no problem unless this is all simply a rant against
>>> Nokia/commercial use of Linux, and in fact you had no intention of
>>> giving any useful input to the questions that were posed?
>>
>> This does in fact appear to be a rant from Darius Jack.  I have not
>> f

Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Paul Bloch]

Hey guys,
So Maemo, as we all feel has enormous potential and we all feel
investment in making things work out for the best.  So instead of each
taking a side, why not find a better solution than what people are
envisioning from a position of separation.  Because obviously there
are pros and cons to both scenarios.  Direction given by passionate
members can help steer things in the right direction or stifle it (a
la gimp).  And sometimes mob rule is horrible because there is no room
to innovate outside people's expectations.  So obviously you are both
right here.  Please don't bicker on the list, it brings the
conversation lower and turns a thread into a flame.  I try to read all
of these mails and I prefer when things are in the positive.  That's
what keeps me motivated and everyone motivated to contribute.  Keeping
up morale is a big deal, especially in the floss world.  What about a
democratically elected council that is renewed every quarter?  Or
using a "flex/flow" organizational model like holacracy as I has put
forth for recommendation?  I think roles are very important, and they
keep people focused and in the right kind of relationship with each
other.  I like the idea of a dynamic social network of passionate
contributors, how can we create that?

It's important to think about the "picture" of the future because then
we can all contribute to that picture.  So why not paint the most
incredible thing we can envision and find out how to get there?
That's how scenario planners and futurists work with corporations.
And I think we can all recognize great products that come out of great
teams, and usually those teams are formed by a common context and
vision.

Can't we all just get along? ;)

-Paul



On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi,
>
> you are completely wrong.
> I always and ever speak for myself.
>
> "
>
> he wants to speak for them all
> "
> NO NO NO
> (see above)
>
> There is a serious problem at maemo, as some guys from maemo
> don't need any community, any open discussion, any collaboration.
> What they need is power.
>
> Yesterday one guy from maemo said
> "communities need moderators"
> .
> Open free source software developers don't need moderators.
> What I develop and test is multitouch solutions, gesture recognition,
> new user-computer interfaces and the like.
> There is no place at maemo for such work, solutions.
> I tried to subscribe to developers section at Maemo 3 times
> and 3 times server generated nothing what could let me in.
> So I gave up, still working at some other places.
> I don't need moderators from maemo to control what I
>  should work on.
>
> Managing Multimedia Magazines at Google
> I don't need third party moderators
> as it's me who can hold a position of a moderator.
>
> Fight for leadership at Maemo is what kills Maemo
> and any idea of Nokia to have Maemo to work
> for the benefit of Nokia.
>
> Get real man, there are hundreds of hot places globe-wide,
> you an develop your ideas, projects, solutions in nice
> association, no moderators, full democracy
> and you an still say NO for Maemo Community Council
> not hurting anyone.
>
>
> Darius
> http://groups.google.com/group/metallica4you/web/magazines?hl=en
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 13/6/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
> Council
> To: maemo-developers@maemo.org
> Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 9:18 PM
>
>>> Any activities by communities financed, sponsored, donated by Nokia
>>> or other corporations, must follow the basic goal of the corporation.
>>
>> In general yes, and here the community adds value to Nokia. So there
>> should be no problem unless this is all simply a rant against
>> Nokia/commercial use of Linux, and in fact you had no intention of
>> giving any useful input to the questions that were posed?
>
> This does in fact appear to be a rant from Darius Jack.  I have not found
> any references to anything he has contributed to any open source
> community, yet he wants to speak for them all.  The relationship between
> commercial entities and the open source community has been explained to
> him more than once, but he does not care to understand.  Time to flip the
> bozo bit.
>
> Ed
>  Okerson
>
> ___
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>
>
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RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Darius Jack]

hi,

you are completely wrong.
I always and ever speak for myself.

"
he wants to speak for them all
"
NO NO NO
(see above)

There is a serious problem at maemo, as some guys from maemo 
don't need any community, any open discussion, any collaboration.
What they need is power.

Yesterday one guy from maemo said
"communities need moderators"
.
Open free source software developers don't need moderators.
What I develop and test is multitouch solutions, gesture recognition,
new user-computer interfaces and the like.
There is no place at maemo for such work, solutions.
I tried to subscribe to developers section at Maemo 3 times
and 3 times server generated nothing what could let me in.
So I gave up, still working at some other places.
I don't need moderators from maemo to control what I should work on.

Managing Multimedia Magazines at Google
I don't need third party moderators
as it's me who can hold a position of a moderator.

Fight for leadership at Maemo is what kills Maemo
and any idea of Nokia to have Maemo to work 
for the benefit of Nokia.

Get real man, there are hundreds of hot places globe-wide,
you an develop your ideas, projects, solutions in nice
association, no moderators, full democracy
and you an still say NO for Maemo Community Council
not hurting anyone.


Darius
http://groups.google.com/group/metallica4you/web/magazines?hl=en




--- On Fri, 13/6/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council
To: maemo-developers@maemo.org
Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 9:18 PM

>> Any activities by communities financed, sponsored, donated by Nokia
>> or other corporations, must follow the basic goal of the corporation.
>
> In general yes, and here the community adds value to Nokia. So there
> should be no problem unless this is all simply a rant against
> Nokia/commercial use of Linux, and in fact you had no intention of
> giving any useful input to the questions that were posed?

This does in fact appear to be a rant from Darius Jack.  I have not found
any references to anything he has contributed to any open source
community, yet he wants to speak for them all.  The relationship between
commercial entities and the open source community has been explained to
him more than once, but he does not care to understand.  Time to flip the
bozo bit.

Ed Okerson

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RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[ed]

>> Any activities by communities financed, sponsored, donated by Nokia
>> or other corporations, must follow the basic goal of the corporation.
>
> In general yes, and here the community adds value to Nokia. So there
> should be no problem unless this is all simply a rant against
> Nokia/commercial use of Linux, and in fact you had no intention of
> giving any useful input to the questions that were posed?

This does in fact appear to be a rant from Darius Jack.  I have not found
any references to anything he has contributed to any open source
community, yet he wants to speak for them all.  The relationship between
commercial entities and the open source community has been explained to
him more than once, but he does not care to understand.  Time to flip the
bozo bit.

Ed Okerson

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RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Simon Pickering]

> be so nice not to say what I should write

My apologies, I hope that you will therefore be so polite as to not  
bother other people who are interested in the theme of the  
thread/question by not posting off-topic replies. I'll take that as a  
yes.

> "if we wanted to we could indeed"
>
> who is "we" ?
> no more community ?

You brought it up, you explain - I see no reason why *a* community  
couldn't do so, just not *this* community (or at least not this one  
with my participation).

> "
> If you have anything relevant to say
> about *that*, please do say it, otherwise you're going off-topic.
> "
> If you expected my YES as the only on-topic, you were wrong.
> NO is the same relevant as your YES.

I don't care if you say YES or NO, just that you answer the questions  
on-topic rather than going off on a tangent.

> I say NO for your Council.

Thank you for your input, can you tell me why (and this is probably  
the first on-topic theme in this series of emails) or what alternative  
you think would improve the situation?

> If you are already self-nominated to your Community Council,
> just say so and don't waste our time for any discussion.

I am not. The point of the thread (if you go back and read the first  
post) was to work out what sort of structure a community council  
should have, how many people it should contain, how they should be  
elected, what they should do, etc. It's not really a community council  
if the community aren't involved... hence the question. If people want  
me to be a part of it I would be happy to be, if not I'm fine with  
that too.

The fact that a number of us have been thinking about this does not  
give us defacto positions, as I repeatedly say, the community must  
decide what and who it wants. This email thread was to ask the  
community's opinion and someone had to start it (and it wasn't even me  
:).

> Nokia , as a corporation, has one business goal
> to generate profit to the corporation , in vestors and shareholders.
> There is no other goal for business corporations.
> Look at Microsoft, Yahoo, Google and others.
> You can still attract volunteers, but your goal is making money.
> Today, tommorrow and after tommorow.
> For Nokia, their goal is to manufacture Nokia Internet Tablets
> and sell at a reasonable price, to compete with Sansung, Apple and others
> and generate profit for investors, shareholders.

Yes indeed. And supporting the maemo.org community will benefit all  
parties: the community members by better organising documentation,  
streamlining and improving interaction with Nokia (bugs,  
feature/status requests, hopefully beta code testing, etc.); and Nokia  
by making it a more pleasant/easier/more productive place for  
independent developers to do good work.

I've probably missed lots of things off there, but that's my view with  
my developer's hat on anyway.

> Any activities by communities financed, sponsored, donated by Nokia
> or other corporations, must follow the basic goal of the corporation.

In general yes, and here the community adds value to Nokia. So there  
should be no problem unless this is all simply a rant against  
Nokia/commercial use of Linux, and in fact you had no intention of  
giving any useful input to the questions that were posed?


Simon


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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Paul Bloch]

Hey guys,
Very interesting topic.  One system to think about is using the
organizational system known as holocracy to organize the site.  I've
been thinking about opensource dynamics as similar to a functioning
cell and I think that a much more intelligent solution can be applied
if we really think about it.  I'm familiar with a lot of social
network interactions and I've been waiting to see a fully made social
network and project management system that is optimal for opensource
projects but is also easy to navigate for new "members" or "users" of
Maemo.  I think that could be an integral part of creating a dynamic
community of users and contributors.  Anyway, that's my riff for now,
I'm really hoping we create elegant resource repositories to download
applications, themes, and art.  I think that with a lot of the work
that is being done in flash we could transform our little Maemo into
an open gaming environment and more.  And what's so great is that
Maemo can be used on multiple devices and isn't locked to a hardware
designer like Nintendo.

Cheers




On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know how to reply to this.
> Really.
> You're not Nokia, but you don't want to be community.
> So what are you and what's your role ?
>
> BTW, there's no moderation, no pre-editing, no cuts off.
> Just good sense. 20kb for a text message is objectively a good boundary.
>
> I am simply an open-source developer, sadly not paid by Nokia.
> You're making assumptions where them do not exist.
>
> --
> Aniello Del Sorbo
>
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Nothing is automatic on the Internet.
>> That's you, moderator, administrator, operator, setting the terms.
>> That's you cutting the thread off.
>> Today you set 20 kb limit, tommorow 10kb, next week 1line input.
>> Long live democracy.
>>
>> Your money, your business, your terms.
>> But please don't call me a community.
>> I use Google Groups and there is no limit on thread size.
>> A good practice is to follow full thread,
>> no pre-editing, no cutt offs, no moderation
>>
>> One day you speak about a community
>> and another day you show me who is the ruler.
>> Bye bye my fiends, no more communities of developers governed by moderators.
>> Nokia , shame on you, financing community governed by moderators.
>>
>> One day 20kb limit is in operation.
>> Tommorrow 10kb, next week 1 line is allowed.
>> Or better. No-reply-discussions.
>>
>> Darius
>>
>> --- On Fri, 13/6/08, Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> From: Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
>> Council
>> To: "maemo-dev" 
>> Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 5:57 PM
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>> ...
>>
>>>> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
>>>> and nominate directors, board, officers
>>>> and have job
>>>  done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.
>>>
>>> That would be a great way to kill the community.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave.
>>>
>>> --
>>> maemo.org docsmaster
>>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Jabber:
>>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> --- you say community
>>> and I see one moderator at Maemoo.org
>>> financed by Nokia or not
>>> advising me to delete my reply in this thread.
>>>
>>> There is no community at Maemo.org
>>> There is moderation at Maemo.org
>>> Free communities of developers don't need moderators
>>> advising members to delete their input.
>>>
>>> =
>>> Just have a look
>>>
>>> ==
>>>
>>> Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
>>>
>>> Friday, 13 June, 2008 5:16 PM
>>> From:
>>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Add sender to Contacts
>>> To:
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Your mail to 'maemo-developers' with the subject
>>>
>>> RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
>>> Council
>>>
>>> Is being
>>  held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>>
>>> The reason it

Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

I don't know how to reply to this.
Really.
You're not Nokia, but you don't want to be community.
So what are you and what's your role ?

BTW, there's no moderation, no pre-editing, no cuts off.
Just good sense. 20kb for a text message is objectively a good boundary.

I am simply an open-source developer, sadly not paid by Nokia.
You're making assumptions where them do not exist.

--
Aniello Del Sorbo

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nothing is automatic on the Internet.
> That's you, moderator, administrator, operator, setting the terms.
> That's you cutting the thread off.
> Today you set 20 kb limit, tommorow 10kb, next week 1line input.
> Long live democracy.
>
> Your money, your business, your terms.
> But please don't call me a community.
> I use Google Groups and there is no limit on thread size.
> A good practice is to follow full thread,
> no pre-editing, no cutt offs, no moderation
>
> One day you speak about a community
> and another day you show me who is the ruler.
> Bye bye my fiends, no more communities of developers governed by moderators.
> Nokia , shame on you, financing community governed by moderators.
>
> One day 20kb limit is in operation.
> Tommorrow 10kb, next week 1 line is allowed.
> Or better. No-reply-discussions.
>
> Darius
>
> --- On Fri, 13/6/08, Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From: Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
> Council
> To: "maemo-dev" 
> Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 5:57 PM
>
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
> ...
>
>>> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
>>> and nominate directors, board, officers
>>> and have job
>>  done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.
>>
>> That would be a great way to kill the community.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave.
>>
>> --
>> maemo.org docsmaster
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Jabber:
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> --- you say community
>> and I see one moderator at Maemoo.org
>> financed by Nokia or not
>> advising me to delete my reply in this thread.
>>
>> There is no community at Maemo.org
>> There is moderation at Maemo.org
>> Free communities of developers don't need moderators
>> advising members to delete their input.
>>
>> =========
>> Just have a look
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
>>
>> Friday, 13 June, 2008 5:16 PM
>> From:
>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Add sender to Contacts
>> To:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Your mail to 'maemo-developers' with the subject
>>
>> RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
>> Council
>>
>> Is being
>  held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>> Message body is too big: 22181 bytes with a limit of 20 KB
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>>
>
> It is an automatic message sent by a program.
> You're reply was too long (in bytes)to be sent to the list.
>
> The message itself explains that the limit is 20kb.
>
> Please do not mix this with Maemo, Nokia, open source and community.
> If you want to help, understand at least the basic things.
>
> I have read all of your posts so far, but I really do not understand your
> point.
>
> --
> anidel
> ___
> maemo-developers mailing
>  list
> maemo-developers@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com



-- 
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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Darius Jack]

Nothing is automatic on the Internet.
That's you, moderator, administrator, operator, setting the terms.
That's you cutting the thread off.
Today you set 20 kb limit, tommorow 10kb, next week 1line input.
Long live democracy.

Your money, your business, your terms.
But please don't call me a community.
I use Google Groups and there is no limit on thread size.
A good practice is to follow full thread,
no pre-editing, no cutt offs, no moderation

One day you speak about a community
and another day you show me who is the ruler.
Bye bye my fiends, no more communities of developers governed by moderators.
Nokia , shame on you, financing community governed by moderators.

One day 20kb limit is in operation.
Tommorrow 10kb, next week 1 line is allowed.
Or better. No-reply-discussions.

Darius

--- On Fri, 13/6/08, Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council
To: "maemo-dev" 
Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 5:57 PM

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
...

>> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
>> and nominate directors, board, officers
>> and have job
>  done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.
>
> That would be a great way to kill the community.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --- you say community
> and I see one moderator at Maemoo.org
> financed by Nokia or not
> advising me to delete my reply in this thread.
>
> There is no community at Maemo.org
> There is moderation at Maemo.org
> Free communities of developers don't need moderators
> advising members to delete their input.
>
> =
> Just have a look
>
> ==
>
> Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
>
> Friday, 13 June, 2008 5:16 PM
> From:
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Add sender to Contacts
> To:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Your mail to 'maemo-developers' with the subject
>
> RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
> Council
>
> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>
> The reason it is being held:
>
> Message body is too big: 22181 bytes with a limit of 20 KB
>
> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>
>

It is an automatic message sent by a program.
You're reply was too long (in bytes)to be sent to the list.

The message itself explains that the limit is 20kb.

Please do not mix this with Maemo, Nokia, open source and community.
If you want to help, understand at least the basic things.

I have read all of your posts so far, but I really do not understand your
point.

--
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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Andre Klapper]

Darius,

Darius Jack píše v Pá 13. 06. 2008 v 15:47 +:
> There is no community at Maemo.org
> There is moderation at Maemo.org
> Free communities of developers don't need moderators
> advising members to delete their input.
> 
> Just have a look
> Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
> 

If you wouldn't use HTML but an email application with proper quoting
and plaintext support, I could much easier distinguish between quotes
and the mostly off-topic stuff that you have written. In general it's
hard to read your emails for those reasons (HTML formatting and very
often mostly off-topic).
Side effect: You wouldn't receive such bounce messages, and I would be
less annoyed by unnecessarily huge emails that I try to download on my
modem connection (I know mailing lists with no such email size
restrictions that end up with users sending their 600kb BMP desktop
screenshots of error message popups attached).

Thanks in advance,
andre
-- 
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)

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RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Simon Pickering]

I'll humour you...

>> Council is not the best solution, as council still has no
>> rights but obligations.
>
> What rights does the council need if it is elected by the community? It has
> "the power of the people".
>
> -- (sorry no chance to edit properly under Google Groups editor)
> -- exactly
> replce "hte power of the people" by
> "the power of the corporation"
> and you can make a business and manufacture Nokia Internet Tablet
> to be hot product, market challenge.

Fine, if we wanted to we could indeed, possibly, do this. But we don't  
want to. That is not the point of the maemo.org community. This email  
thread was started with the goal of obtaining feedback about how to  
organise a community council. If you have anything relevant to say  
about *that*, please do say it, otherwise you're going off-topic.

>> One thing should be discussed and disclosed yet,
>> what is a role of Nokia in maemo.org
>> to avoid legal issues and problems in the future.
>> Linux developers should be fully aware in advance if they
>> work and devote their time
>> for Nokia Corporation, for  maemo.org  not-incorporated,
>> maemo.org  - organization , incorporation pending or just
>> work for fun, for free, for the community.
>
> Well this is to be a community project.
>
> -- Ok. Hardware is corporate project, Nokia Internet Tablet.
> No chance to have community to finance development and production of  
>  hardware.

Indeed. That is not the goal, see my reply above. We are not planning  
on taking over the Maemo project and creating competing hardware +  
software but rather on making the community <-> Nokia interaction as  
productive and easy as possible.

> The copyright of the maemo.org name
> will be held by Nokia
>
> -- ok. But copyright to service name, trademark makes no software
> product.
> What makes Linux software is developers.

You're off topic again; we're talking about a community and  
documentation, not about software.

> so they have a final veto (they also pay for and
> maintain the site),
>
> You need pocket money to buy and pay for web site
> or you can even get one for free.
> To register a new domain cost you another pocket money.
> So money is not an issue.

Indeed money is probably not an issue, this could happen somewhere  
else, but why not here, where the well known name points (maemo.org)  
and with the cooperation of Nokia (after all the point here is to work  
with them, that's the reason we're doing this!)

> Issue is developers.

Not with regard to how to organise the community - Nokia interaction  
it is categorically nothing to do with programmers. It would be great  
to encourage more programmers to develop for the platform and the  
establishment of a community driven maemo.org should facilitate that  
(well at least it would make me happier and I'm a developer).

> Therefore any
> developers (web developers I guess you mean) will be working for fun, for
> their community.
>
> -- ok, great
> and what about a case, another nice web place, website
> created asks developers from maemo to move to their website
> and work for another project ?

So be it. If they offer a more compelling platform on which to develop  
then they can and will leave. It's up to Nokia + the community to  
provide both compelling hardware and a useful community. This is not  
about trying to lock people into the platform, except by virtue of it  
being so cool that why would you want to leave and do something else.

> I should add that there are a few people (Dave Neary - docs, Niels Breet -
> website and to a lesser extent Andre Klapper and Karsten Braeckelmann -
> bugtrackers) who are paid by Nokia to work on/for maemo.org part-time. I
> imagine that that they will be doing what the community wants them to do. I
> don't see this being a problem.
>
> -- very bad solution
> The ruler is one you hires you and pays for your services.

And if the paymaster says that they should do what the community asks  
of them - works for me.

> Paying a community , paying some members of the community
> to organize other members of the same community to work for free
> is not a good idea as it makes Maemo a corporate project
> and no more community project.

People have been hired based on their skill sets - I see no problem in  
having a number of people who know what they are doing to advise how  
the website documentation should be organised and to maintain the  
underlying website infrastructure, etc. I do not know how to do  
either, and indeed it may take up quite a bit of my free time (which  
is when I do my DSP hacking and write these emails) to be able to do  
these tasks. I assume that when the time comes and we have a large  
enough community contributing, etc, some of these roles may no longer  
be necessary as they will be taken over by community members. To get  
the ball rolling, we need (and have) these people now.

> Community project is really general term used on the Internet if
> you with collaborators t

Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Frederic Crozat]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
> ...
>
>>> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
>>> and nominate directors, board, officers
>>> and have job
>>  done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.
>>
>> That would be a great way to kill the community.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave.
>>
>> --
>> maemo.org docsmaster
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> --- you say community
>> and I see one moderator at Maemoo.org
>> financed by Nokia or not
>> advising me to delete my reply in this thread.
>>
>> There is no community at Maemo.org
>> There is moderation at Maemo.org
>> Free communities of developers don't need moderators
>> advising members to delete their input.
>>
>> =
>> Just have a look
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
>>
>> Friday, 13 June, 2008 5:16 PM
>> From:
>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Add sender to Contacts
>> To:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Your mail to 'maemo-developers' with the subject
>>
>> RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
>> Council
>>
>> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>> Message body is too big: 22181 bytes with a limit of 20 KB
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>>
>
> It is an automatic message sent by a program.
> You're reply was too long (in bytes)to be sent to the list.
>
> The message itself explains that the limit is 20kb.

I guess this is what happens to people posting in HTML (and I don't
even comment on top posting ;))

-- 
Frederic Crozat
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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Darius Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
...

>> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
>> and nominate directors, board, officers
>> and have job
>  done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.
>
> That would be a great way to kill the community.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --- you say community
> and I see one moderator at Maemoo.org
> financed by Nokia or not
> advising me to delete my reply in this thread.
>
> There is no community at Maemo.org
> There is moderation at Maemo.org
> Free communities of developers don't need moderators
> advising members to delete their input.
>
> =
> Just have a look
>
> ==
>
> Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
>
> Friday, 13 June, 2008 5:16 PM
> From:
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Add sender to Contacts
> To:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Your mail to 'maemo-developers' with the subject
>
> RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
> Council
>
> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>
> The reason it is being held:
>
> Message body is too big: 22181 bytes with a limit of 20 KB
>
> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>
>

It is an automatic message sent by a program.
You're reply was too long (in bytes)to be sent to the list.

The message itself explains that the limit is 20kb.

Please do not mix this with Maemo, Nokia, open source and community.
If you want to help, understand at least the basic things.

I have read all of your posts so far, but I really do not understand your point.

--
anidel
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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Darius Jack]

--- On Fri, 13/6/08, Dave Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Dave Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "maemo-developers@maemo.org List" , "Ryan Abel" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 4:47 PM

Hi Darius,

Darius Jack wrote:
> Please visit Global Alliance on Open Source Software
> <http://groups.google.com/group/globalalliance4u?hl=en>
> http://groups.google.com/group/globalalliance4u?hl=en
> to see how it works.

I had a look at your site - very interesting.

Global Alliance on Open Source Software

Group info:
Members: 1
Activity: Low activity

What kind of an alliance is this? Just asking.

-- My dear friend.
Thank you for visiting this place.
Alliance is a form of collateral agreement.
It may take some time to arrange and ink one.

As you can see
there are 32 members at Nokia Internet Tablet
http://groups.google.com/group/nokia-internet-tablet?hl=en

and 2 at iPhone
http://groups.google.com/group/iPhone4u?hl=en

But don't ask me to tell you the number of lurkers at iPhone.


> Working for Nokia Corporation on corporate products is really great think.
> But please aware, any software code is still copyrighted to its author
> not Nokia
> and today and forever.

For Nokia employees this is not an issue, it is very clear that Nokia
owns copyright.

--   Copyrights to what ?

For volunteers this is also not an option, since Nokia does not ask for
any copyright assignment, and the licence on maemo software is clear.

-- my dear friend, there is nothing clear in copyrights.
Frankly speaking I was not aware maemo related software
has any special copyrights status.


> But please don't advice Nokia to incorporate third party copyrighted
> Linux code into one of its product without such writtenm contract or
> agreement on transfer of intellectual property rights.

Just wondering - you do understand the consequences of the GPL and LGPL,
don't you?

- Contacted recently Free Software Foundation to discuss
the issue of hardware locked Linux embedded devices.
Nobody can fully understand any consequences in comming years
of the global competition between corporations.



> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
> and nominate directors, board, officers
> and have job done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.

That would be a great way to kill the community.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- you say community
and I see one moderator at Maemoo.org
financed by Nokia or not
advising me to delete my reply in this thread.

There is no community at Maemo.org
There is moderation at Maemo.org
Free communities of developers don't need moderators
advising members to delete their input.

=
Just have a look

==
Your message to maemo-developers awaits moderator approval
Friday, 13 June, 2008 5:16 PM





From: 

"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Add sender to Contacts






To: 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]            
        
Your mail to 'maemo-developers' with the subject

    RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community
Council

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

    Message body is too big: 22181 bytes with a limit of 20 KB

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:

    
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/confirm/maemo-developers/e522aa6caabf4e91b2d7e00ea3748089b9796971




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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Dave Neary]

Hi Darius,

Darius Jack wrote:
> Please visit Global Alliance on Open Source Software
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/globalalliance4u?hl=en
> to see how it works.

I had a look at your site - very interesting.

Global Alliance on Open Source Software

Group info:
Members: 1
Activity: Low activity

What kind of an alliance is this? Just asking.

> Working for Nokia Corporation on corporate products is really great think.
> But please aware, any software code is still copyrighted to its author
> not Nokia
> and today and forever.

For Nokia employees this is not an issue, it is very clear that Nokia
owns copyright.

For volunteers this is also not an option, since Nokia does not ask for
any copyright assignment, and the licence on maemo software is clear.

> But please don't advice Nokia to incorporate third party copyrighted
> Linux code into one of its product without such writtenm contract or
> agreement on transfer of intellectual property rights.

Just wondering - you do understand the consequences of the GPL and LGPL,
don't you?

> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
> and nominate directors, board, officers
> and have job done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.

That would be a great way to kill the community.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Simon Pickering]

Hello Darius, 

> Council is not the best solution, as council still has no 
> rights but obligations.

What rights does the council need if it is elected by the community? It has
"the power of the people".

> One thing should be discussed and disclosed yet,
> what is a role of Nokia in maemo.org
> to avoid legal issues and problems in the future.
> Linux developers should be fully aware in advance if they 
> work and devote their time
> for Nokia Corporation, for  maemo.org  not-incorporated, 
> maemo.org  - organization , incorporation pending or just 
> work for fun, for free, for the community.

Well this is to be a community project. The copyright of the maemo.org name
will be held by Nokia so they have a final veto (they also pay for and
maintain the site), but my understanding is that they would like the
community to run/organise/develop the site for the community. Therefore any
developers (web developers I guess you mean) will be working for fun, for
their community. 

I should add that there are a few people (Dave Neary - docs, Niels Breet -
website and to a lesser extent Andre Klapper and Karsten Braeckelmann -
bugtrackers) who are paid by Nokia to work on/for maemo.org part-time. I
imagine that that they will be doing what the community wants them to do. I
don't see this being a problem.

> Working for Nokia Corporation on corporate products is really 
> great think.
> But please aware, any software code is still copyrighted to 
> its author not Nokia
> and today and forever.
> So you at Nokia need to establish legal relations between 
> copyright holders and the Nokia Corporation.

Presumably the copyright of the website & contents will be under a Gnu Free
Documentation Licence (a la Wikipedia) or a Creative Commons Licence. What's
the current licensing model (http://maemo.org/legal/terms_of_use.html). This
is presumably something that could be discussed if people have a preference
one way or the other.

> Another way is to discuss such contractual relations between 
> Linux developers and corporations having global status and 
> set terms, have lawyers from Free Software Foundation and 
> other organizations to represent developers in relations with 
> corporations
> to facilitate  intellectual property rights transfer
> under US, EU IT rights protections acts, rules, regulations.

There are no contracts. This is community for community. If someone decides
they can no longer take part (in the council for example), they will need to
be replaced. How this would happen is something that has to be worked out
(by this discussion for example).

> But please don't advice Nokia to incorporate third party 
> copyrighted Linux code into one of its product without such 
> writtenm contract or agreement on transfer of intellectual 
> property rights.

We're talking about a website and community infrastructure here, not a
released software product.

> And you at Nokia and from Nokia,
> please follow an example by Apple, having developed iPhone, iPod Touch
> and new 3G GPS iPhone
> please look at repositories of community made software, look 
> at SDK policy.

If there's a real problem here (what's wrong with the SDK policy - email me
in a separate thread please), then this is the sort of thing the maemo.org
council should be addressing when it has its meetings with Quim.

> Global Corporation like Nokia can't risk investing into 
> community projects, products, developed for free by 
> developers volunterring their work for the community.

It already has

> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
> and nominate directors, board, officers
> and have job done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.

The whole point of this is to allow the community to exist and grow without
being controlled by Nokia, but rather to be a partner in the direction of
that growth. I think your opinions, while interesting, are at odds with
those of the majority.

Cheers,


Simon (aka lardman)

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Re: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Darius Jack]

Hello my friend,
Community Council sounds like a good idea
but what you really need is a Board
and Chairman of the Bord, President, Directors
and having Maemo.org incorporated as profit or non-for-profit corporation.

Council is not the best solution, as council still has no rights but 
obligations.

Please visit Global Alliance on Open Source Software 
http://groups.google.com/group/globalalliance4u?hl=en
to see how it works.

One thing should be discussed and disclosed yet,
what is a role of Nokia in maemo.org
to avoid legal issues and problems in the future.
Linux developers should be fully aware in advance if they work and devote their 
time
for Nokia Corporation, for  maemo.org  not-incorporated, maemo.org  - 
organization , incorporation pending or just work for fun, for free, for the 
community.

Working for Nokia Corporation on corporate products is really great think.
But please aware, any software code is still copyrighted to its author not Nokia
and today and forever.
So you at Nokia need to establish legal relations between copyright holders and 
the Nokia Corporation.

Another way is to discuss such contractual relations between Linux developers 
and corporations having global status and set terms, have lawyers from Free 
Software Foundation and other organizations to represent developers in 
relations with corporations
to facilitate  intellectual property rights transfer
under US, EU IT rights protections acts, rules, regulations.

But please don't advice Nokia to incorporate third party copyrighted Linux code 
into one of its product without such writtenm contract or agreement on transfer 
of intellectual property rights.

One day, one developer, one lawyer in one case, may stop Nokia Corporation in 
developing one commercial product by court order, claiming intellectual 
property rights violations.

So it is much better to have contract Linux workers than be dependent on a work 
of free
developers, working for free, for the community, without any formal agreement 
or contract between any such developer and any such corporation.

Corporate Linux Software Solutions are getting more and more common today.

And you at Nokia and from Nokia,
please follow an example by Apple, having developed iPhone, iPod Touch
and new 3G GPS iPhone
please look at repositories of community made software, look at SDK policy.

If Nokia is still going to make business with Nokia Internet Tablet and 
generate profit not loss, must follow a good example and already known 
development path.

Global Corporation like Nokia can't risk investing into community projects, 
products, developed for free by developers volunterring their work for the 
community.

Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation
and nominate directors, board, officers
and have job done under supervision and management provided by Nokia.


Global Alliance on Open Source Software 
is a good place to discuss that issue and more problems
related to Corporate Linux Embedded Hardware Products
hardware locked or not.


http://groups.google.com/group/globalalliance4u?hl=en


Darius 
 Multimedia Magazines (R&D Project No.GIM02577) 
 http://tinyurl.com/3edako 

  
  



--- On Fri, 13/6/08, Ryan Abel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Ryan Abel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council
To: "maemo-developers@maemo.org List" 
Date: Friday, 13 June, 2008, 1:51 PM

Hello, Maemo Community. :)
As most of you probably already know, the 100 Days brainstorm over 
at http://wiki.maemo.org/100Days has recently concluded, and now is the time to 
start working on pushing the Tasks: that came out of it. To that end, I'd like 
to request everybody's input on task that will likely help most in moving 
forward with a community-driven maemo.org, the maemo.org Community Council 
(http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_Council).
Over the 30 days or so, we need to pound out a framework for the council—define 
its scope, responsibilities, organization, and purpose, and figure out the 
nomination and election procedure.
This is the first draft, and all ideas are still fluid and open to 
modification. Please feel encouraged to discussion and modify any of these 
points on the wiki.
Purpose
The maemo community currently lacks focus for its issues and ideas. There are a 
lot of great minds with lots of good ideas but they lack organization and 
focus. The council will serve to help distill and focus these ideas (from the 
maemo.org mailing lists, IRC, itT, Bugzilla, etc), bring them to Nokia's 
attention, and seek to understand Nokia's position on these issues and help to 
explain it to the rest of the community.
The council will also serve to facilitate a dialog between Nokia and the 
community on these issues, holding monthly IRC meetings with Quim to discuss 
progress on existing issues and raise new issues.
Structure
The council will be composed of 5 

maemo.org community leadership - the maemo.org Community Council

[Ryan Abel]

Hello, Maemo Community. :)

As most of you probably already know, the 100 Days brainstorm over at http://wiki.maemo.org/100Days 
 has recently concluded, and now is the time to start working on  
pushing the Tasks: that came out of it. To that end, I'd like to  
request everybody's input on task that will likely help most in moving  
forward with a community-driven maemo.org, the maemo.org Community  
Council (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_Council).


Over the 30 days or so, we need to pound out a framework for the  
council—define its scope, responsibilities, organization, and purpose,  
and figure out the nomination and election procedure.


This is the first draft, and all ideas are still fluid and open to  
modification. Please feel encouraged to discussion and modify any of  
these points on the wiki.



Purpose

The maemo community currently lacks focus for its issues and ideas.  
There are a lot of great minds with lots of good ideas but they lack  
organization and focus. The council will serve to help distill and  
focus these ideas (from the maemo.org mailing lists, IRC, itT,  
Bugzilla, etc), bring them to Nokia's attention, and seek to  
understand Nokia's position on these issues and help to explain it  
to the rest of the community.


The council will also serve to facilitate a dialog between Nokia and  
the community on these issues, holding monthly IRC meetings with  
Quim to discuss progress on existing issues and raise new issues.


Structure

The council will be composed of 5 community members to be elected by  
the community with 1 member as the council chairman. The chairman  
will be selected by the council after the completion of elections  
and requires a majority vote of 3 out of 5 council members. If no  
majority can be reached, the chairman will be the member with the  
most community votes. Potential candidates must have 100 karma  
points on maemo.org.


Elections

* The 5 council members will be elected by the community.
* Elections are held every 6 months.
* Nominations accepted 2 weeks before the election begins.
* Elections last for 1 week.
* Only community members with karma above 50 may vote.
* Each community member gets one vote.
* The 5 nominees with the most votes are elected.

Operations

* The council will hold monthly IRC meetings with the contacts from  
the Maemo Software team at Nokia to discuss new issues and progress  
on existing issues.

* Distill community issues to bring to Nokia's attention.
* Help manage community involvement (e.g. Maemowiki Action Group,  
100Days and 2010 Agenda)


Andrew Flegg (Jaffa), Simon Pickering (lardman) and myself  
(GeneralAntilles) have been the ones pushing this idea so far, but a  
community council shouldn't be pushed by only 3 people, so we need  
everybody's help in figuring out how things should work.


In the interest of keeping council discussion in a single easy-to-get- 
to place, anybody interested in helping out should head on over to the  
Community Council Talk Page (http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Task:Community_Council 
) and get discussing! It's preferable that discussion not be held on  
this mailing list, as the wiki will be easier for people to find, and  
to keep up-to-date and on-topic :)


Let's make maemo.org the best community website it can be!___
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