[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
OMG! Shut up! -Original Message- From: Chip Davis Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 8:47 PM To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x OK Brian, so your answers to my questions are: "I have a profit motive to encourage MM3 adoption" ... and ... "I'm baffled that all the people on the Mailman *2* discussion list are not scrambling to adopt MM3" Have I got that about right? For the record, I have enjoyed exemplary support from all three of my "cheap budget hosts" whenever I've had an issue. And yes, one of them is A2. I will sign off of this thread by pointing out that your first contribution to it was a reply to my posting supporting Jim's generous offer to help support the MM2 community, in which you stridently attempted to convince us to convert over to MM3 instead. Respectfully, we decline. -Chip- On 8/26/2020 11:17 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: > On 8/26/20 10:29 PM, Chip Davis wrote: >> What I don't understand is your vitriolic objection to Jim's offer. >> How is that any skin off your nose? Do you see this as a zero-sum >> game in which every MM2 instance that doesn't "upgrade" is a threat >> to MM3? If it's as superior as you claim, there should be a >> thunderous stampede to adopt MM3. The bazaar will speak eloquently. >> What, exactly, is the cock you have in this pit? >> >> Bottom Line: As long as there are inexpensive cPanel hosts running >> Mailman 2, *I have no choice*. So I greatly appreciate Jim's offer >> to pick up the burden and allow Mark to move on. > > I watched for years how cheap budget hosts provided crap support for > the software that they hosted. I watched Mark for years take on that > extra burden of making up for their crap support because of it via the > old MM2 user list. > > I am sure Mark has moved on from Mailman 2, at least he has said that > on numerous occasions. It is you folks that won't let him. You want to > keep using MM2 and you want the developers to keep supporting it. That > pressure can/does hinder the work on Mailman 3. > > I really did not like Jim's comment and that set me off: > > "I hate to say this, but I'm sensing an exclusivity in your and Mark's > comments. Is Mailman a open source project or is it an exclusive > club?" > > I really don't like your comments either towards me in the quote above > and the way you mis-represented Mailman 3 in your reply to Odhiambo. I > offer shared and dedicated environments for Mailman 3 and none of my > clients have to worry about the complexities of Mailman 3 at all. I > didn't like the way Carl quoted an old piece of information and when > he was corrected, proceeded to dig in his heels. I didn't like a > lurker who never posted to any Mailman list before, suddenly come out > of the woodwork to mock me on the use of "long life" > > By the way there is always a choice. I have been offering Mailman 3 > shared list hosting for almost 2 years now. It's that few extra > dollars a month that is a budget breakers for cheap host users. Oh > well. > > I know now that none of you have any intention of using or supporting > Mailman 3. My pro MM3 comments have been mocked, ignored, and > discarded. Ok. Fine. I think none of you has shown any respect or > appreciation in the work that has been done to propel the Mailman > project into the modern web development world. That shows that all you > really care about is your wallets and how much you may have to work to > move your lists to a Mailman 3 environment. This isn't about Mailman > at all. It's about how can have a mailing list and stay using a cheap > budget host. For Jim? Well I don't really care why he doesn't use > Mailman 3. I think his claims about wanting to support Mailman is a > joke. If he really wanted to support the Mailman project, then he > would throw his weight behind Mailman 3. > -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/2020 8:17 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: I am sure Mark has moved on from Mailman 2, at least he has said that on numerous occasions. It is you folks that won't let him. You want to keep using MM2 and you want the developers to keep supporting it. That pressure can/does hinder the work on Mailman 3. Just who is this "you folks" that you're talking about??? Have _I_ ever demanded that Mark fix something? (Jim? Dmitri? others in this conversation?) I don't think so. Heck, I'm sure I've answered, or at least responded to, many more questions on this list than I've asked. I offer shared and dedicated environments for Mailman 3 and none of my clients have to worry about the complexities of Mailman 3 at all. Again, you've missed the point- it's not about "clients", it's about us individually. Us who operate lists on our own systems for our own use. I didn't like the way Carl quoted an old piece of information and when he was corrected, proceeded to dig in his heels. I didn't like a lurker who never posted to any Mailman list before, suddenly come out of the woodwork to mock me on the use of "long life" Oh, boy... a) I quoted a piece of info _with_reference_ and you quoted the next paragraph from the _same_page_! It's "digging in my heels" when called on that? If one piece is correct, it's reasonable to assume the other is too. If they're not, don't point the finger at me (and go change the doc). b) I really hope you're not calling me a "lurker". By the way there is always a choice. I have been offering Mailman 3 shared list hosting for almost 2 years now. It's that few extra dollars a month that is a budget breakers for cheap host users. Oh well. And I run MM2 for no cost for myself and friends. I have other friends who run it at no cost for -their- groups, none of them are chomping to run MM3 because they don't see much point. It's not about . (You do realize that some folks still use CRT monitors and are quite happy with them. Should those be replaced? Why?) I know now that none of you have any intention of using or supporting Mailman 3. My pro MM3 comments have been mocked, ignored, and discarded. Ok. No, your "my way or the highway" comments have been mocked and discarded. If MM3 offered me a benefit, I might consider using it if the cost (which includes my own time) made it worth while. Fine. I think none of you has shown any respect or appreciation in the work that has been done to propel the Mailman project into the modern web development world. Not correct. That shows that all you really care about is your wallets No, wallets aren't included ($$ cost is not a factor). and how much you may have to work to move your lists to a Mailman 3 environment. Yes, why should we do a bunch of work for no appreciable benefit? I haven't seen a relevant answer. This isn't about Mailman at all. It's about how can have a mailing list and stay using a cheap budget host. ??? My "cheap host" is a machine in the back room. Other MM2 operators I know buy raw iron or colo space to run their lists. Why are you hung up on hosted MM? For Jim? Well I don't really care why he doesn't use Mailman 3. I think his claims about wanting to support Mailman is a joke. If he really wanted to support the Mailman project, then he would throw his weight behind Mailman 3. So... you've just said that "my way or the highway" again. I really don't understand this almost visceral disdain for anyone wanting to run some older software _that_works_for_them_. Or disdain for someone who offers to maintain that older software. Heck, that's part of the point of open-source software, when one person steps back another can step forward. Jim has offered to do that; while my python isn't good*, I might help him because I also use the software. *(I don't see much need for it) Next, I suppose someone is going to tell me I have to stop using mp2 files because mp4 is so much better or something like that. Really, just give it a rest. z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
OK Brian, so your answers to my questions are: "I have a profit motive to encourage MM3 adoption" ... and ... "I'm baffled that all the people on the Mailman *2* discussion list are not scrambling to adopt MM3" Have I got that about right? For the record, I have enjoyed exemplary support from all three of my "cheap budget hosts" whenever I've had an issue. And yes, one of them is A2. I will sign off of this thread by pointing out that your first contribution to it was a reply to my posting supporting Jim's generous offer to help support the MM2 community, in which you stridently attempted to convince us to convert over to MM3 instead. Respectfully, we decline. -Chip- On 8/26/2020 11:17 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: On 8/26/20 10:29 PM, Chip Davis wrote: What I don't understand is your vitriolic objection to Jim's offer. How is that any skin off your nose? Do you see this as a zero-sum game in which every MM2 instance that doesn't "upgrade" is a threat to MM3? If it's as superior as you claim, there should be a thunderous stampede to adopt MM3. The bazaar will speak eloquently. What, exactly, is the cock you have in this pit? Bottom Line: As long as there are inexpensive cPanel hosts running Mailman 2, *I have no choice*. So I greatly appreciate Jim's offer to pick up the burden and allow Mark to move on. I watched for years how cheap budget hosts provided crap support for the software that they hosted. I watched Mark for years take on that extra burden of making up for their crap support because of it via the old MM2 user list. I am sure Mark has moved on from Mailman 2, at least he has said that on numerous occasions. It is you folks that won't let him. You want to keep using MM2 and you want the developers to keep supporting it. That pressure can/does hinder the work on Mailman 3. I really did not like Jim's comment and that set me off: "I hate to say this, but I'm sensing an exclusivity in your and Mark's comments. Is Mailman a open source project or is it an exclusive club?" I really don't like your comments either towards me in the quote above and the way you mis-represented Mailman 3 in your reply to Odhiambo. I offer shared and dedicated environments for Mailman 3 and none of my clients have to worry about the complexities of Mailman 3 at all. I didn't like the way Carl quoted an old piece of information and when he was corrected, proceeded to dig in his heels. I didn't like a lurker who never posted to any Mailman list before, suddenly come out of the woodwork to mock me on the use of "long life" By the way there is always a choice. I have been offering Mailman 3 shared list hosting for almost 2 years now. It's that few extra dollars a month that is a budget breakers for cheap host users. Oh well. I know now that none of you have any intention of using or supporting Mailman 3. My pro MM3 comments have been mocked, ignored, and discarded. Ok. Fine. I think none of you has shown any respect or appreciation in the work that has been done to propel the Mailman project into the modern web development world. That shows that all you really care about is your wallets and how much you may have to work to move your lists to a Mailman 3 environment. This isn't about Mailman at all. It's about how can have a mailing list and stay using a cheap budget host. For Jim? Well I don't really care why he doesn't use Mailman 3. I think his claims about wanting to support Mailman is a joke. If he really wanted to support the Mailman project, then he would throw his weight behind Mailman 3. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 10:29 PM, Chip Davis wrote: What I don't understand is your vitriolic objection to Jim's offer. How is that any skin off your nose? Do you see this as a zero-sum game in which every MM2 instance that doesn't "upgrade" is a threat to MM3? If it's as superior as you claim, there should be a thunderous stampede to adopt MM3. The bazaar will speak eloquently. What, exactly, is the cock you have in this pit? Bottom Line: As long as there are inexpensive cPanel hosts running Mailman 2, *I have no choice*. So I greatly appreciate Jim's offer to pick up the burden and allow Mark to move on. I watched for years how cheap budget hosts provided crap support for the software that they hosted. I watched Mark for years take on that extra burden of making up for their crap support because of it via the old MM2 user list. I am sure Mark has moved on from Mailman 2, at least he has said that on numerous occasions. It is you folks that won't let him. You want to keep using MM2 and you want the developers to keep supporting it. That pressure can/does hinder the work on Mailman 3. I really did not like Jim's comment and that set me off: "I hate to say this, but I'm sensing an exclusivity in your and Mark's comments. Is Mailman a open source project or is it an exclusive club?" I really don't like your comments either towards me in the quote above and the way you mis-represented Mailman 3 in your reply to Odhiambo. I offer shared and dedicated environments for Mailman 3 and none of my clients have to worry about the complexities of Mailman 3 at all. I didn't like the way Carl quoted an old piece of information and when he was corrected, proceeded to dig in his heels. I didn't like a lurker who never posted to any Mailman list before, suddenly come out of the woodwork to mock me on the use of "long life" By the way there is always a choice. I have been offering Mailman 3 shared list hosting for almost 2 years now. It's that few extra dollars a month that is a budget breakers for cheap host users. Oh well. I know now that none of you have any intention of using or supporting Mailman 3. My pro MM3 comments have been mocked, ignored, and discarded. Ok. Fine. I think none of you has shown any respect or appreciation in the work that has been done to propel the Mailman project into the modern web development world. That shows that all you really care about is your wallets and how much you may have to work to move your lists to a Mailman 3 environment. This isn't about Mailman at all. It's about how can have a mailing list and stay using a cheap budget host. For Jim? Well I don't really care why he doesn't use Mailman 3. I think his claims about wanting to support Mailman is a joke. If he really wanted to support the Mailman project, then he would throw his weight behind Mailman 3. -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
Brian, your analysis is spot-on. All of my MM2 instances support non-profit organizations which cannot afford the cost of the Internet bandwidth for a second-hand server in someone's basement, much less a part-time sysadmin. *_I_* am the only technical staff they have, and I am unpaid. So yes, all of my Mailman instances run on an assortment of those "cheap cPanel hosts" you think so little of. And I'm paying for most of them, myself. I am retired, but my entire career was spent in mainframe OS systems & application software development, installation, and support. I have a great deal of experience recovering from the premature adoption of /New! Improved! /system software. If it is a problem for a sixty year old software behemoth like IBM, I have absolutely no confidence that a volunteer open source effort is immune. So *you are absolutely correct about the issue here*: I am volunteering my time & talents so there is /_no _//_money_/, and I have enough experience that there is a _/justified /__/fear/_. What I don't understand is your vitriolic objection to Jim's offer. How is that any skin off your nose? Do you see this as a zero-sum game in which every MM2 instance that doesn't "upgrade" is a threat to MM3? If it's as superior as you claim, there should be a thunderous stampede to adopt MM3. The bazaar will speak eloquently. What, exactly, is the cock you have in this pit? Bottom Line: As long as there are inexpensive cPanel hosts running Mailman 2, *I have no choice*. So I greatly appreciate Jim's offer to pick up the burden and allow Mark to move on. -Chip- "I shoot dumps for fun. They are the ultimate Sudoku." On 8/26/2020 5:05 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: On 8/26/20 3:14 PM, Chip Davis wrote: All of my dozen Mailman instances run on shared servers. I have no control over the release/distro on which I am hosted. But my providers have a bazillion (est.) customers running Mailman2 and, for a number of reasons, are not terribly eager to force us all to convert to Mailman3. By all reports, it is not an easy migration, nor are all features supported. From their standpoint, maintaining a stable, if backlevel, Python2 to support MM2 is merely a matter of DASD, with far lower support costs than moving to Py3/MM3. I think Jim's conclusion of MM2's continued viability is valid, and the idea of having a subset of the dev team continue to support/enhance it is a good idea. And I like the "Classic Mailman" moniker. :-) Python 3 is already a part of all major linux distributions. So the framework should already be there for a Mailman 3 installation. As for migrating a Mailman 2 list to Mailman 3, that is easy. The Mailman developers have come up with 2 scripts that do a great job of migrating Mailman 2 lists into a Mailman 3 server. What happens when another "Dmarc" occurs? That event dramatically impacted mailing lists everywhere. At the time, only Mailman 2 needed to be patched and the Mailman developers did a great job of doing so quickly. However would that happen now if such an event repeated itself? Most likely not. Mailman 3 would get the attention and rightfully so. You are all looking at the wrong thing here. The real question here is why are you not wanting to move to a Mailman 3 environment? It's not hard to install anymore. It has a future. It is modern. It as a long life expectancy and, most importantly, its being supported and developed. I think the issue here is money and fear. Cheap cPanel hosts include Mailman 2 with their budget hosting packages and I am pretty sure that is who you are using. Well fine, then let those hosts take on the responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source is all about. For me, Mailman 2 is a dinosaur and its interface is over 20 years old. Mailman 3 is entering the world of modern web development and that is a great thing for users of Mailman. There are still users of Majordomo. But they are very few now and for good reason. Mailing lists are evolving and have moved on. Get off a ship that is no longer sailing ahead and wants to instead to permanently anchor in place. It's ok, the new ship is more modern and has AC! -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 3:50 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: > On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote: >> >> Also, from >> https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html >> "The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to >> Mailman 3.1 is buggy." > > I am pretty sure that documentation is old. Yes, it is was old. I just updated it to better reflect the current state. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 8:49 PM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote: The point was that the argument about MM3 having a long life expectancy "because python 3" is not in any way, shape, or form supported by the history of the python programming language to date. Arguing that MM3 itself is going to be supported because there's more that just Mark supporting it effectively boils down to "Mark will stop patching MM2". That's certainly possible, but maybe we should ask him instead of taking your word for it? Ok. I will shut-up now. -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/2020 7:26 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: On 8/26/20 8:13 PM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote: Python $version code has a long life expectancy? Wow. When did that happen? Wonderful contribution to this conversation. The point was that the argument about MM3 having a long life expectancy "because python 3" is not in any way, shape, or form supported by the history of the python programming language to date. Arguing that MM3 itself is going to be supported because there's more that just Mark supporting it effectively boils down to "Mark will stop patching MM2". That's certainly possible, but maybe we should ask him instead of taking your word for it? Dima -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 20:25 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote: > On 8/26/20 7:02 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: > > I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are > > admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts. > > I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3 > > and needed a 3rd party to bail them out. Brian, I recall referring one > > of them to you. So, I guess, money does come into play. Fear is > > another interesting choice of words. Do you think that the fear might > > be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project > > is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going > > forward? > > Because the main reason why Mailman 2 has seen the popular use that it > does is because of budget hosts that offered cPanel and Plesk > environments. Both of them included Mailman 2 with their packages. I do > know some hosting control panels are starting to drop support for > Mailman 2 and that will continue to grow. I personally don't think > Mailman 3 will see as large of an adoption rate as Mailman 2. That is > because cheap hosting companies are not interested in quality but > quantity. cPanel will probably never adopt Mailman 3. Dreamhost said no > to it and will keep Mailman 2 for now. Why? Because Mailman 3 requires a > more complex environment. However, my opinion, most well developed apps > do. So SaaS providers such as myself will play a more important role in > the propagation of Mailman 3. That's not a bad thing. At least Mailman 3 > will have providers who will provide expert and conscientious support of > Mailman 3 than some of these budget hosts (looking at you A2). My experience is different, I know of no Mailman cPanel installs, in over 2 decades of dealing with Mailman. In fact, I have a long history of hating cPanel and such. > I think what prevents folks like you and Carl, ultimately, is fear of > the unknown. Mailman 3 does not require expensive consulting contracts. > I made a $150 bucks from your referral. That doesn't break no one's > budget. Also I would appreciate if you keep our private conversations > off of a public mailing list. Sure, but you do know that you just revealed more about it than I did. As for "fear", I don't fear mm3, I have a mm3 setup and that is how I know all about mm3 (that and the mm3 lists). > Mark is simply saying it doesn't make sent to continue to build up a > retired application (MM2) and instead focus their limited resources on a > young stallion called MM3. There is nothing wrong with that. Go to > someone else for the development of MM2. Who? I'm the one volunteering to do it, why would I go to someone else to do it for me? I just don't follow your logic there. > > Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that > > time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over. The difference > > now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and > > should have the right and support to move on. > > > > > Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of > > keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about. > > > > That, *that* ^^^, is my point. I want to take that on, I want to work > > with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2 > > branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it. I think > > who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team. There is > > absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples > > for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or > > closed source for that matter) project. > > > > > So go to cPanel forums to request that or Dreamhost, or others. I am > pretty sure you will not like the answer you will get from them. Why > wouldn't you just spend your efforts to migrate to Mailman 3? I just > don't see the logic in your efforts here. I'm confused, why do you think I should talk to Dreamhost or cPanel? > I didn't like Postorius or Hyperkitty (still don't, sorry Mark and Abs). > So due to that beautiful REST api, I made my own path. At the end of the > day, its still Mailman 3 that I am using. Modern web development offers > so much choices and potentials these days for users. It's just sad that > Mailman 2 will never see those choices and potentials because it just > doesn't have the foundation to do so. It is dead in the water. But it is > resurrected in Mailman 3. You seem happy with mm3, and that is good. Nobody is saying you shouldn't have mm3...but please don't say others should do exactly what you want them to do wrt Mailman (or anything for that matter). -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 8:13 PM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote: Python $version code has a long life expectancy? Wow. When did that happen? Wonderful contribution to this conversation. -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 7:02 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts. I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3 and needed a 3rd party to bail them out. Brian, I recall referring one of them to you. So, I guess, money does come into play. Fear is another interesting choice of words. Do you think that the fear might be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going forward? Because the main reason why Mailman 2 has seen the popular use that it does is because of budget hosts that offered cPanel and Plesk environments. Both of them included Mailman 2 with their packages. I do know some hosting control panels are starting to drop support for Mailman 2 and that will continue to grow. I personally don't think Mailman 3 will see as large of an adoption rate as Mailman 2. That is because cheap hosting companies are not interested in quality but quantity. cPanel will probably never adopt Mailman 3. Dreamhost said no to it and will keep Mailman 2 for now. Why? Because Mailman 3 requires a more complex environment. However, my opinion, most well developed apps do. So SaaS providers such as myself will play a more important role in the propagation of Mailman 3. That's not a bad thing. At least Mailman 3 will have providers who will provide expert and conscientious support of Mailman 3 than some of these budget hosts (looking at you A2). I think what prevents folks like you and Carl, ultimately, is fear of the unknown. Mailman 3 does not require expensive consulting contracts. I made a $150 bucks from your referral. That doesn't break no one's budget. Also I would appreciate if you keep our private conversations off of a public mailing list. Mark is simply saying it doesn't make sent to continue to build up a retired application (MM2) and instead focus their limited resources on a young stallion called MM3. There is nothing wrong with that. Go to someone else for the development of MM2. Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over. The difference now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and should have the right and support to move on. Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about. That, *that* ^^^, is my point. I want to take that on, I want to work with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2 branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it. I think who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team. There is absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or closed source for that matter) project. So go to cPanel forums to request that or Dreamhost, or others. I am pretty sure you will not like the answer you will get from them. Why wouldn't you just spend your efforts to migrate to Mailman 3? I just don't see the logic in your efforts here. I didn't like Postorius or Hyperkitty (still don't, sorry Mark and Abs). So due to that beautiful REST api, I made my own path. At the end of the day, its still Mailman 3 that I am using. Modern web development offers so much choices and potentials these days for users. It's just sad that Mailman 2 will never see those choices and potentials because it just doesn't have the foundation to do so. It is dead in the water. But it is resurrected in Mailman 3. -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/2020 4:05 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: You are all looking at the wrong thing here. The real question here is why are you not wanting to move to a Mailman 3 environment? It's not hard to install anymore. It has a future. It is modern. It as a long life expectancy and, most importantly, its being supported and developed. Python $version code has a long life expectancy? Wow. When did that happen? Dima -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 7:20 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote: On 8/26/2020 3:50 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote: So they will not notice a migration to Mailman 3 at all then. You miss the point- _I'll_ notice, I'm the one who'd be doing the work. Well, I am sorry to suggest there be some work to be done in a migration. Also, from https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html "The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.1 is buggy." I am pretty sure that documentation is old. Here is a quote from the above page: [...] Old? You've quoted the next paragraph on the same page. So? I did that to prove that the document was outdated. That's all. And why would I use linux when I have FreeBSD? :) That is good as long as no major "DMARC" events come along. Nobody is complaining that folks are using MM2. But I am seeing some complaints pointed at the MM developers for no longer willing to develop MM2. That's a completely separate topic and you'll have noticed that I'm not one of the complainers. See, the problem here is, the developers did develop and improve the Mailman project, its just now called Mailman 3. So embrace and respect their hard work and move your dang lists to Mailman 3! When I get to it, maybe in 2022. Ok. But that then goes against your original premise. MM2 isn't broke so why move from it. Ever. The thing is- no matter how much you may want people to "upgrade", there just aren't sufficient reasons for potentially a lot of small list operators. Perhaps I'm a luddite- I drive a 15 year old car because it works, most of my home systems are 5+ years old because they work and are plenty fast for the load, I use a 18? year old Brother printer because it works, etc. When one of them stops working it'll get replaced (if I can't repair it). There is little reason to replace things that still function as much as one needs. Ok. Except this isn't about just list operators, or moderators, but also list members. There are a lot of roles involved here. Mailman 3 is the future. That REST api is awesome. It allowed me to do things with Mailman 3 that just wasn't possible with Mailman 2. I think some of the criticisms is really directed at Postorius/Hyperkitty and not Mailman 3 core. The thing about those interfaces is they too can be improved continually, and due to the use of Python 3 and modern web development, have far more potential to make the lives of list owners, moderators, and members more easier and productive. You are not going to see that with Mailman 2. You like using antiques? Ok, go for it. I heartily agree. Developers move on all the time and sometimes others pick up the codebase and run with it. Embrace that. Nope. I am going with improving the quality of life for list owners, moderators, and members by embracing Mailman 3 and its REST api. -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/2020 3:50 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote: So they will not notice a migration to Mailman 3 at all then. You miss the point- _I'll_ notice, I'm the one who'd be doing the work. Also, from https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html "The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.1 is buggy." I am pretty sure that documentation is old. Here is a quote from the above page: [...] Old? You've quoted the next paragraph on the same page. And why would I use linux when I have FreeBSD? :) That is good as long as no major "DMARC" events come along. Nobody is complaining that folks are using MM2. But I am seeing some complaints pointed at the MM developers for no longer willing to develop MM2. That's a completely separate topic and you'll have noticed that I'm not one of the complainers. See, the problem here is, the developers did develop and improve the Mailman project, its just now called Mailman 3. So embrace and respect their hard work and move your dang lists to Mailman 3! When I get to it, maybe in 2022. The thing is- no matter how much you may want people to "upgrade", there just aren't sufficient reasons for potentially a lot of small list operators. Perhaps I'm a luddite- I drive a 15 year old car because it works, most of my home systems are 5+ years old because they work and are plenty fast for the load, I use a 18? year old Brother printer because it works, etc. When one of them stops working it'll get replaced (if I can't repair it). There is little reason to replace things that still function as much as one needs. On 8/26/2020 4:02 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: There is absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or closed source for that matter) project. I heartily agree. Developers move on all the time and sometimes others pick up the codebase and run with it. Embrace that. Later, z! who also plays with a 100 year old steam tractor and a 120 year old printing press; both do their jobs well -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 17:05 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote: snip-snip > I think the issue here is money and fear. Cheap cPanel hosts include > Mailman 2 with their budget hosting packages and I am pretty sure that > is who you are using. I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts. I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3 and needed a 3rd party to bail them out. Brian, I recall referring one of them to you. So, I guess, money does come into play. Fear is another interesting choice of words. Do you think that the fear might be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going forward? Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over. The difference now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and should have the right and support to move on. > Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about. That, *that* ^^^, is my point. I want to take that on, I want to work with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2 branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it. I think who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team. There is absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or closed source for that matter) project. -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote: As someone regularly uses and maintains a fair bit of old and antique machinery, MM2 still has a lot of life in it. Yes, the original team isn't going to do much with it, but others probably will. And for someone who wants to run a few simple lists* , MM3 is, um, rather a heavyweight. If I'm reading things correctly, in addition to the web server you need python3, django, a sass compiler (w/ ruby overhead), anything else? It certainly doesn't look as easy to install or configure as MM2. MM2 has some life. That is correct. MM3 has far more. As someone who has now installed Mailman 3 multiple times, I say from experience, it is very easy to install AND to keep up to date. The server overhead is pretty low as well. So again, the wording you chose is misleading. Installing the environment for a MM3 setup is very easy on a modern linux distribution. *(I have 3 lists, at most 50 people on each, hardly ever any changes) So they will not notice a migration to Mailman 3 at all then. Also, from https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html "The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.1 is buggy." I am pretty sure that documentation is old. Here is a quote from the above page: "Now the long version. Because of the changes in Database Schema, migrating from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.1 is not very easy, though it can be done with some scripting. We are working on it and it should be working soon, we don’t have an exact timeline on it though." Well they did come up with two scripts for migrating MM2 lists to MM3 and they have been out for a while. I just migrated over 60 MM2 lists to our Mailman 3 cloud environment without a single error. List settings, members, and archives were all migrated easily. So, it's likely that a lot of people will still be using MM2 for at least a few years (heck there are are Solaris -7- systems out there, happily running production code). That ship is happily performing it's daily passenger runs. That is good as long as no major "DMARC" events come along. Nobody is complaining that folks are using MM2. But I am seeing some complaints pointed at the MM developers for no longer willing to develop MM2. See, the problem here is, the developers did develop and improve the Mailman project, its just now called Mailman 3. So embrace and respect their hard work and move your dang lists to Mailman 3! (I am jesting with the exclamation point.) -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/2020 2:05 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote: Get off a ship that is no longer sailing ahead and wants to instead to permanently anchor in place. As someone regularly uses and maintains a fair bit of old and antique machinery, MM2 still has a lot of life in it. Yes, the original team isn't going to do much with it, but others probably will. And for someone who wants to run a few simple lists* , MM3 is, um, rather a heavyweight. If I'm reading things correctly, in addition to the web server you need python3, django, a sass compiler (w/ ruby overhead), anything else? It certainly doesn't look as easy to install or configure as MM2. *(I have 3 lists, at most 50 people on each, hardly ever any changes) Also, from https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html "The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.1 is buggy." So, it's likely that a lot of people will still be using MM2 for at least a few years (heck there are are Solaris -7- systems out there, happily running production code). That ship is happily performing it's daily passenger runs. Later, z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 8/26/20 3:14 PM, Chip Davis wrote: All of my dozen Mailman instances run on shared servers. I have no control over the release/distro on which I am hosted. But my providers have a bazillion (est.) customers running Mailman2 and, for a number of reasons, are not terribly eager to force us all to convert to Mailman3. By all reports, it is not an easy migration, nor are all features supported. From their standpoint, maintaining a stable, if backlevel, Python2 to support MM2 is merely a matter of DASD, with far lower support costs than moving to Py3/MM3. I think Jim's conclusion of MM2's continued viability is valid, and the idea of having a subset of the dev team continue to support/enhance it is a good idea. And I like the "Classic Mailman" moniker. :-) Python 3 is already a part of all major linux distributions. So the framework should already be there for a Mailman 3 installation. As for migrating a Mailman 2 list to Mailman 3, that is easy. The Mailman developers have come up with 2 scripts that do a great job of migrating Mailman 2 lists into a Mailman 3 server. What happens when another "Dmarc" occurs? That event dramatically impacted mailing lists everywhere. At the time, only Mailman 2 needed to be patched and the Mailman developers did a great job of doing so quickly. However would that happen now if such an event repeated itself? Most likely not. Mailman 3 would get the attention and rightfully so. You are all looking at the wrong thing here. The real question here is why are you not wanting to move to a Mailman 3 environment? It's not hard to install anymore. It has a future. It is modern. It as a long life expectancy and, most importantly, its being supported and developed. I think the issue here is money and fear. Cheap cPanel hosts include Mailman 2 with their budget hosting packages and I am pretty sure that is who you are using. Well fine, then let those hosts take on the responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source is all about. For me, Mailman 2 is a dinosaur and its interface is over 20 years old. Mailman 3 is entering the world of modern web development and that is a great thing for users of Mailman. There are still users of Majordomo. But they are very few now and for good reason. Mailing lists are evolving and have moved on. Get off a ship that is no longer sailing ahead and wants to instead to permanently anchor in place. It's ok, the new ship is more modern and has AC! -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
I'm afraid I disagree. All of my dozen Mailman instances run on shared servers. I have no control over the release/distro on which I am hosted. But my providers have a bazillion (est.) customers running Mailman2 and, for a number of reasons, are not terribly eager to force us all to convert to Mailman3. By all reports, it is not an easy migration, nor are all features supported. From their standpoint, maintaining a stable, if backlevel, Python2 to support MM2 is merely a matter of DASD, with far lower support costs than moving to Py3/MM3. I think Jim's conclusion of MM2's continued viability is valid, and the idea of having a subset of the dev team continue to support/enhance it is a good idea. And I like the "Classic Mailman" moniker. :-) If only I had the skills to assist him, but I don't think he has any need for IBM Assembler and Rexx expertise. :-/ -Chip- On 8/26/2020 11:05 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote: On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 16:35, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users < mailman-users@python.org> wrote: Hi Folks, So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two more people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and approve new features that continue the long tradition of providing value to Mailman 2.x. Who's with me on this? I am not a developer at all and will never be one, but seeing as Python2.x is being dropped soon in most platforms and mailman-2.x relies on it, it only makes sense for me that efforts are made to better mailman-3.x and let 2.x go away slowly. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 23:52 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes: > > > A couple of days ago, over on the MAILOP mailinglist, there was a > > long thread titled 'Mailman confirmation email denial of service'. > > *sigh* The price of success. Of course this can be done with any > automated service that accepts an email address as an identity, eg, > Wordpress blog comment sections. > > > Recently, a kind person submitted a patch [1] to Mailman for > > hCAPTCHA an alternative to ReCAPTCHA. In the discussion of that > > patch, Mark has stated that he is not interested in any more > > features for Mailman 2.x. > > [...] > > > So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two > > more people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and > > approve new features that continue the long tradition of providing > > value to Mailman 2.x. Who's with me on this? > > In the following I'm expressing personal opinions and suggestions, > which should not be taken as representing the position of the Mailman > Project. > > I'm not willing to join the group. I've thrown my lot in with Mailman > 3, and don't have energy to spare for new development on Mailman 2. > However, if I can contribute support to Mailman 2 users, I'll do that. > I don't object to people making efforts to maintain Mailman 2, nor do > I begrudge sharing Mailman resources (including the mailing lists and > official repos) -- our hosts are quite elastic about the resources we > use, it's no cost to us. On the contrary, aside from the intrinsic > value to Mailman 2 users, it's an interesting social experiment. > There was a lot of grumbling about maintaining Python 2, but nothing > ever came of it. I'd like to see if you can make this work, and I'll > be rooting for your success. > > I (again, this is me, I am not speaking for the team) would appreciate > it if you could come up with team nickname or motto to express that > you're not the same as the core project (at least for now). And you > probably don't want to overpromise. "Classic Mailman Volunteer Fire > Dept" is the best I can think of offhand.[1] Thanks Stephen. I don't think there is a need for a new name, a new repo, or a new team. Mailman 2.x will be in distro repos for at least the next 5 years, so there's plenty of life left in it (and Python 2 too). Look, we've known about the EOL of Python2 for 2 years now, and in that time many new features have been added to Mailman 2.x by people in the Mailman project. To say that we need a different group now is nonsense, we just need members in the Mailman group who are willing to continue the work that has been done over the past several years (including recent years) by Mark. I hate to say this, but I'm sensing an exclusivity in your and Mark's comments. Is Mailman a open source project or is it an exclusive club? -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 16:35, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users < mailman-users@python.org> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > A couple of days ago, over on the MAILOP mailinglist, there was a long > thread titled 'Mailman confirmation email denial of service'. This > detailed some of the problems we've all seen with Mailman subscription > spam. The Mailman team has addressed a lot of these problems with > ReCAPTCHA support and additional configuration options. Arguably the > best solution has been the ReCAPTCHA integration. BUT, a lot of people > don't like the Google tie-ins that come with ReCAPTCHA. > > Recently, a kind person submitted a patch [1] to Mailman for hCAPTCHA an > alternative to ReCAPTCHA. In the discussion of that patch, Mark has > stated that he is not interested in any more features for Mailman 2.x. > I think that is fine, Mark has given decades of this time to Mailman and > I think it's perfectly natural for him to want to move on. He deserves > a lot of credit for Mailman's success, both the 2.x and 3.x branches. > > So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two more > people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and approve new > features that continue the long tradition of providing value to Mailman > 2.x. Who's with me on this? > > > > 1. https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691 > > 2. https://launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/+members#active > > I am not a developer at all and will never be one, but seeing as Python2.x is being dropped soon in most platforms and mailman-2.x relies on it, it only makes sense for me that efforts are made to better mailman-3.x and let 2.x go away slowly. But I do support the addition of that 1 feature - because you have volunteered to add it :-) -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-) -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] mailman v2.x
Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes: > A couple of days ago, over on the MAILOP mailinglist, there was a > long thread titled 'Mailman confirmation email denial of service'. *sigh* The price of success. Of course this can be done with any automated service that accepts an email address as an identity, eg, Wordpress blog comment sections. > Recently, a kind person submitted a patch [1] to Mailman for > hCAPTCHA an alternative to ReCAPTCHA. In the discussion of that > patch, Mark has stated that he is not interested in any more > features for Mailman 2.x. [...] > So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two > more people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and > approve new features that continue the long tradition of providing > value to Mailman 2.x. Who's with me on this? In the following I'm expressing personal opinions and suggestions, which should not be taken as representing the position of the Mailman Project. I'm not willing to join the group. I've thrown my lot in with Mailman 3, and don't have energy to spare for new development on Mailman 2. However, if I can contribute support to Mailman 2 users, I'll do that. I don't object to people making efforts to maintain Mailman 2, nor do I begrudge sharing Mailman resources (including the mailing lists and official repos) -- our hosts are quite elastic about the resources we use, it's no cost to us. On the contrary, aside from the intrinsic value to Mailman 2 users, it's an interesting social experiment. There was a lot of grumbling about maintaining Python 2, but nothing ever came of it. I'd like to see if you can make this work, and I'll be rooting for your success. I (again, this is me, I am not speaking for the team) would appreciate it if you could come up with team nickname or motto to express that you're not the same as the core project (at least for now). And you probably don't want to overpromise. "Classic Mailman Volunteer Fire Dept" is the best I can think of offhand.[1] Steve Footnotes: [1] Remember, "Classic Coke" won in the end. ;-) -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] mailman v2.x
Hi Folks, A couple of days ago, over on the MAILOP mailinglist, there was a long thread titled 'Mailman confirmation email denial of service'. This detailed some of the problems we've all seen with Mailman subscription spam. The Mailman team has addressed a lot of these problems with ReCAPTCHA support and additional configuration options. Arguably the best solution has been the ReCAPTCHA integration. BUT, a lot of people don't like the Google tie-ins that come with ReCAPTCHA. Recently, a kind person submitted a patch [1] to Mailman for hCAPTCHA an alternative to ReCAPTCHA. In the discussion of that patch, Mark has stated that he is not interested in any more features for Mailman 2.x. I think that is fine, Mark has given decades of this time to Mailman and I think it's perfectly natural for him to want to move on. He deserves a lot of credit for Mailman's success, both the 2.x and 3.x branches. So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two more people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and approve new features that continue the long tradition of providing value to Mailman 2.x. Who's with me on this? 1. https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691 2. https://launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/+members#active -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
