Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Greetings, * Slavko via mailop (mailop@mailop.org) wrote: > Dňa 25. februára 2024 3:10:51 UTC používateľ Philip Paeps via mailop > napísal: > > >Not being able to present information in the Subject: or body clearly isn't > >ideal, but it's better than breaking DKIM. List-* headers have been in > >widespread use for over twenty years. > > The bad part is, that eg. exim by default (over)signs List-* headers > nonexistence, thus adding them will break its DKIM anyway. We (postgresql.org) are similar to the FreeBSD folks in that we don't modify the body or the Subject line, so as to avoid breaking DKIM. Further, emails which over-sign the List-* headers are moderated and rejected when they hit our lists and we tell people to go fix their configuration. > I don't know how many exims (providers) uses that default, but our > job's email provider do that. When i complained, i got response, that > it is right and i do not understand DKIM... :-D It's certainly unfortunate that there are some folks who insist on using exim's default (which is also the recommendation from some RFC which is very annoying). We've been able to have some success getting people to fix things as, otherwise, they can't post to the PG mailing lists. Not sure if that would be helpful to mention to your provider but who knows, maybe it would be.. Thanks, Stephen signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
It appears that Benny Pedersen via mailop said: >Ken O'Driscoll via mailop skrev den 2024-02-25 21:38: >> Outlook has supported list-unsubscribe for at least a year, if not >> longer. But, it's an add-on you need to proactively install so... > >waiting for roundcube, since squirrelmail have had this as a plugin, >just not roundcube, hmp :=) You should look harder. Or just look here: https://github.com/SS88UK/roundcube-easy-unsubscribe R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On Sun, 25 Feb 2024, Ken O'Driscoll wrote: Outlook has supported list-unsubscribe for at least a year, if not longer. But, it's an add-on you need to proactively install so... I'm looking at the list of add-ins and I don't see it. Maybe it's Windows only and I'm on a Mac? R's, John It appears that Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop said: Yes. I'm looking at you, thunderbird... This should be a no-brainer, and it's a shame that the major open source MUA doesn't seem to support it. There's probably an add-on to do this, I just can't access the thunderbird add-on search at the moment, so don't know for sure. There is but it hasn't been updated to work with recent versions of T'bird so it installs a button but the button doesn't do anything useful. Oh well. Still waiting for Outlook to do this, both the web site and the program. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2/24/24 11:23, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote: Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. My understanding is that the requirement is scoped to the 1st party recipient of messages subject to the requirement. I bet that the same requirement doesn't extend to the 3rd party recipient that the 2nd party forwarded the 1st party's message to. -- Grant. . . . smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Ken O'Driscoll via mailop skrev den 2024-02-25 21:38: Outlook has supported list-unsubscribe for at least a year, if not longer. But, it's an add-on you need to proactively install so... waiting for roundcube, since squirrelmail have had this as a plugin, just not roundcube, hmp :=) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Outlook has supported list-unsubscribe for at least a year, if not longer. But, it's an add-on you need to proactively install so... Ken. On Sun, Feb 25, 2024, 19:47 John Levine via mailop wrote: > It appears that Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop said: > >Yes. I'm looking at you, thunderbird... > > > >This should be a no-brainer, and it's a shame that the major open source > MUA doesn't seem to support it. There's > >probably an add-on to do this, I just can't access the thunderbird add-on > search at the moment, so don't know for sure. > > There is but it hasn't been updated to work with recent versions of > T'bird so it installs a button but the button doesn't do anything > useful. Oh well. > > Still waiting for Outlook to do this, both the web site and the program. > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
It appears that Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop said: >Yes. I'm looking at you, thunderbird... > >This should be a no-brainer, and it's a shame that the major open source MUA >doesn't seem to support it. There's >probably an add-on to do this, I just can't access the thunderbird add-on >search at the moment, so don't know for sure. There is but it hasn't been updated to work with recent versions of T'bird so it installs a button but the button doesn't do anything useful. Oh well. Still waiting for Outlook to do this, both the web site and the program. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Dňa 25. februára 2024 3:10:51 UTC používateľ Philip Paeps via mailop napísal: >Not being able to present information in the Subject: or body clearly isn't >ideal, but it's better than breaking DKIM. List-* headers have been in >widespread use for over twenty years. The bad part is, that eg. exim by default (over)signs List-* headers nonexistence, thus adding them will break its DKIM anyway. I don't know how many exims (providers) uses that default, but our job's email provider do that. When i complained, i got response, that it is right and i do not understand DKIM... :-D regards -- Slavko https://www.slavino.sk/ ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Am 25.02.24 um 04:10 schrieb Philip Paeps via mailop: It's actually encouraging to see the web-MUAs driving improvement in this space. Parsing List-Unsubscribe: to present a button feels like a very obvious thing to do. It's surprising how few traditional MUAs have ever done that. Yes. I'm looking at you, thunderbird... This should be a no-brainer, and it's a shame that the major open source MUA doesn't seem to support it. There's probably an add-on to do this, I just can't access the thunderbird add-on search at the moment, so don't know for sure. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2/24/2024 5:25 PM, Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: On the whole, I think not meddling with the body (and not breaking DKIM) provides an improved mailing list experience. We don't have to rewrite the From: header, and "reply" works the way the poster intends. Neither the mailing list software nor the recipient has to guess. Sounds like a win. Generally, whatever is typically put in the footer can reasonably be move to a header field, although of course that means users will typically not automatically have it presented to them. A different issue is that it tends to be helpful for the Subject field to show that a mailing list is involved, though that will typically break DKIM... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker@mastodon.social ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2024-02-25 09:48:23 (+0700), Dave Crocker wrote: On 2/24/2024 5:25 PM, Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: On the whole, I think not meddling with the body (and not breaking DKIM) provides an improved mailing list experience. We don't have to rewrite the From: header, and "reply" works the way the poster intends. Neither the mailing list software nor the recipient has to guess. Sounds like a win. Generally, whatever is typically put in the footer can reasonably be move to a header field, although of course that means users will typically not automatically have it presented to them. A different issue is that it tends to be helpful for the Subject field to show that a mailing list is involved, though that will typically break DKIM... We also stopped prefixing the Subject: header with information duplicated from the List-Id header. Not being able to present information in the Subject: or body clearly isn't ideal, but it's better than breaking DKIM. List-* headers have been in widespread use for over twenty years. I hope MUAs will finally start displaying them. It's actually encouraging to see the web-MUAs driving improvement in this space. Parsing List-Unsubscribe: to present a button feels like a very obvious thing to do. It's surprising how few traditional MUAs have ever done that. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2024-02-24 04:39:46 (+0700), Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote: I run an email groups hosting service. For many years now, each group message has included a one click unsubscribe link in the message footer. We also include appropriate List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click headers. The problem with including a one-click unsubscribe link in the message bodies occurs when a group message is forwarded to someone else, and they click on the link, unsubscribing the original person. We have an easy one-click resubscribe system for this, but it's still not wonderful and occasionally causes problems/confusion. My question to you all is, do you think that the List-Unsubscribe=One-Click header is supported well enough these days such that I can replace the one-click unsub link in the message bodies with a link that requires authentication? Also, do you think doing so would adversely affect our distribution? To avoid breaking DKIM, we stopped adding footers to messages posted to FreeBSD.org mailing lists. We only have the List-Unsubscribe: header. We've seen a very slight uptick in "Subject: unsubscribe" posts to the mailing lists (and to postmaster@) but not enough to lose sleep over. We don't do the One-Click thing yet - we provide mailto: and an ordinary webpage. As I understand it, the mailbox services provided by large internet advertising conglomerates only require One-Click for commercial email, not for discussion lists. We'll get around to implementing One-Click eventually, but it hasn't been a priority. On the whole, I think not meddling with the body (and not breaking DKIM) provides an improved mailing list experience. We don't have to rewrite the From: header, and "reply" works the way the poster intends. Neither the mailing list software nor the recipient has to guess. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Dnia 24.02.2024 o godz. 13:16:45 Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop pisze: > > pointing out that Federal law mandates a one-step method; completely Not everybody is located in the USA, and "federal" law has no meaning to those who don't. > two-step method, even though a one-step is implicit in the law's "visiting > a single Internet Web page" (i.e. having to click 'submit' on that page > takes you to a second page, making it not 'visiting a single Internet Web > page") That's simply not true. I routinely write scripts that after clicking "submit" take you back to the same web page, ie. to the same URL. The content on that page, however, doesn't need to be the same :) That's actually the default behavior of a form if you specify an empty ACTION="" attribute in the HTML FORM tag. You can also write the script so that it doesn't leave the page at all after clicking "submit", and only sends the data internally to the server using AJAX and displays the response that is received back, all without ever leaving the page. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
IMHO, and I’m not a lawyer like Anne, but I think in common language what she is trying to explain. Like in GDPR which makes it so you can decline cookie data, that link is just one cookie, and they give us the option to decline other cookies but necessary or leave the site all together. Is this the gist of the current legal framework in the US? > On Feb 24, 2024, at 3:19 PM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop > wrote: > > > >> On Feb 24, 2024, at 12:41 PM, Andrew C Aitchison >> wrote: >> >> Do you read "visiting a single Internet Web page" >> as excluding interaction with that page ? >> >> If so, how do I provide my opt-out preferences by ... >> "visiting a single Internet Web page" ? > > A strict construction of that language would suggest to me that yes, that's > what it says - *however*, I also don't think that's what was intended, and it > is on these ambiguous (regardless of how slightly) turns of phrase that > entire cases are decided. > > If I were brought in on a case that turned on deciding what this language > meant, I could argue either side, and convincingly so, I believe. > > Anne > > --- > Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. > Email Law & Policy Attorney > CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) > Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing > law) > Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability > industry > Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook > Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange > Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School > Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School > Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop > Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
> On Feb 24, 2024, at 12:41 PM, Andrew C Aitchison > wrote: > > Do you read "visiting a single Internet Web page" > as excluding interaction with that page ? > > If so, how do I provide my opt-out preferences by ... > "visiting a single Internet Web page" ? A strict construction of that language would suggest to me that yes, that's what it says - *however*, I also don't think that's what was intended, and it is on these ambiguous (regardless of how slightly) turns of phrase that entire cases are decided. If I were brought in on a case that turned on deciding what this language meant, I could argue either side, and convincingly so, I believe. Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability industry Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
> > You're confusing unrelated things. The one-click unsubscribe is > literally one click, no intermediate web page or anything returned to > the user. It's intended for mail systems that do the unsub on the > user's behalf. The most familiar is Gmail, where you can click the > junk button, and it sometimes gives you the option to unsubscribe > instead. No I'm not, I'm simply adding to the general conversation, as somewhere in the thread there was talk about removing the link altogether, and I'm pointing out that Federal law mandates a one-step method; completely removing an unsub link (and, for example, relying on the one-step in the header) could open one up to risk. > I'd be interested to see case law saying that the usual > two-click unsub is illegal. I'm pretty sure there isn't any. I would too, but of course that part of the law has never been litigated, and I think it's unlikely to. When we are asked whether it's ok to have a two-step method, even though a one-step is implicit in the law's "visiting a single Internet Web page" (i.e. having to click 'submit' on that page takes you to a second page, making it not 'visiting a single Internet Web page") we answer based on experience and pragmatism: no Federal agency is likely to come after you for having that second step, so long as you are doing everything else that you are supposed to. Where I think that it's going to get interesting is when senders start removing the visible, in the body, unsub link that people are used to looking for, and relying _only_ on the header-embedded unsub. And that is more likely from where the litigation will come. Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability industry Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote: Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. As I often seem to get challenged on this, here is the text of the law: "§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on recipients who wish to opt out. Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient’s electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet Web page, in order to: (a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or (b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and (a)(4)." You can read more about it, in plain English, here: https://www.isipp.com/a-one-step-unsubscribe-is-required-by-federal-law/ Do you read "visiting a single Internet Web page" as excluding interaction with that page ? If so, how do I provide my opt-out preferences by ... "visiting a single Internet Web page" ? -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK and...@aitchison.me.uk___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
It appears that Marco Moock via mailop said: >Am Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:39:46 -0800 >schrieb Mark Fletcher via mailop : > >> My question to you all is, do you think that the >> List-Unsubscribe=One-Click header is supported well enough these days >> such that I can replace the one-click unsub link in the message >> bodies with a link that requires authentication? > >No, many MUAs still don't support it and webmailers too. >Do you know which applications actually support those headers? Gmail and Yahoo require it so I think it's safe to assume that they support it. I see that Apple mail does on both mobile and Mac, as do minor MUAs like Alpine. The main laggard is Microsoft. Big surprise. R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
It appears that Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop said: > > >> On Feb 23, 2024, at 4:59 PM, John Levine via mailop >> wrote: >> >> 'd leave the links in the bodies for now. A lot of mail programs give >> you a way to use the ones in the header, but some major ones like >> Outlook still don't. > >Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. > >As I often seem to get challenged on this, here is the text of the law: You're confusing unrelated things. The one-click unsubscribe is literally one click, no intermediate web page or anything returned to the user. It's intended for mail systems that do the unsub on the user's behalf. The most familiar is Gmail, where you can click the junk button, and it sometimes gives you the option to unsubscribe instead. It is fine for a regular unsubscribe link to land on a page that asks you to click on a button to confirm you meant it. As people have been saying, that avoids false alarms from malware scanners. As I assume you know, 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) specifically allows the sender to provide a menu of opt-out options. If you think that's wrong, I'd be interested to see case law saying that the usual two-click unsub is illegal. I'm pretty sure there isn't any. R's, John >"§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on >recipients who wish to opt out. >Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that >any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient’s >electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps >except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet >Web page, >in order to: > >(a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, >required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future >commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or > >(b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and >(a)(4)." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
> On Feb 23, 2024, at 4:59 PM, John Levine via mailop wrote: > > 'd leave the links in the bodies for now. A lot of mail programs give > you a way to use the ones in the header, but some major ones like > Outlook still don't. Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. As I often seem to get challenged on this, here is the text of the law: "§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on recipients who wish to opt out. Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient’s electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet Web page, in order to: (a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or (b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and (a)(4)." You can read more about it, in plain English, here: https://www.isipp.com/a-one-step-unsubscribe-is-required-by-federal-law/ Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability industry Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Am Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:39:46 -0800 schrieb Mark Fletcher via mailop : > My question to you all is, do you think that the > List-Unsubscribe=One-Click header is supported well enough these days > such that I can replace the one-click unsub link in the message > bodies with a link that requires authentication? No, many MUAs still don't support it and webmailers too. Do you know which applications actually support those headers? ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
According to Andy Smith via mailop : >Hi, > >On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 01:39:46PM -0800, Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote: >> My question to you all is, do you think that the List-Unsubscribe=One-Click >> header is supported well enough these days such that I can replace the >> one-click unsub link in the message bodies with a link that requires >> authentication? Also, do you think doing so would adversely affect our >> distribution? > >Do you not find that there are too many things that automatically >scan links in incoming emails? The point of the one-click is that it's a POST rather than GET, and the scanners just do a GET. I'd leave the links in the bodies for now. A lot of mail programs give you a way to use the ones in the header, but some major ones like Outlook still don't. -- Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2/23/24 15:25, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop wrote: You may want to give your subscribers the option of having a one-click unsubscribe link in every message (with a properly worded warning that forwarding such a link is risky) versus a monthly mailing list reminder which contains a link to subscription management but no information worthy to be forwarded. I don't know whether that's posssible with common mailing list systems though. Another thought would be to send a final email confirming that they have been unsubscribed, along with a link to resubscribe if they did so in error. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Am 24.02.24 um 00:12 schrieb Mark Fletcher via mailop: On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:09 PM Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: There are many systems that scan links in email and falsely unsubscribe. I'd make it two-click. When clicked, have it go to a page that says: You are about to unsubscribe [address] from mailing list [name of list]. Are you sure you want to do this? [Yes] [No] Sorry, I misspoke/wasn't clear. It does do that now. People still click on that Yes button. Well if someone forwards mail containing their personal unsubscribe link to someone else, they are asking for it. Blindly forwarding such content is stupid. You may want to give your subscribers the option of having a one-click unsubscribe link in every message (with a properly worded warning that forwarding such a link is risky) versus a monthly mailing list reminder which contains a link to subscription management but no information worthy to be forwarded. I don't know whether that's posssible with common mailing list systems though. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:44 PM Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote: > > My question to you all is, do you think that the List-Unsubscribe=One-Click > header is supported well enough these days such that I can replace the > one-click unsub link in the message bodies with a link that requires > authentication? Also, do you think doing so would adversely affect our > distribution? I think it's fine to make any in-body link a two step to unsub - click to confirm - to avoid bot clicks and false positive unsubs. I'd not go crazy beyond that. CAN-SPAM disallows putting a login in front of the unsub process. Does that apply to your mailing list/groups mail? Not clear to me, but I wouldn't want to find out. You'll definitely get people complaining that it violates the law. Will moving to "two click" on any in-body unsub link affect you negatively? No, not really. You'll be fine. And it's compliant with Yahoo/Google. They're only mandating one-click as in "one click post" via the list-unsub headers as you've already suggested that you comply with. It is not uncommon to use the same URL in both the list-iunsub header and the body of the email. If somebody visits the URL (not post), show a confirm step. If somebody POSTS to the URL, then it's a list-unsub from a mailbox provider, and unsub without a confirm step. Here's more detail on list-unsub/list-unsub post if you need it: https://www.spamresource.com/2023/12/bonus-webinar-crash-course-on-list.html But I rather suspect you've pretty much got it covered. Cheers, Al Iverson -- Al Iverson // 312-725-0130 // Chicago http://www.spamresource.com // Deliverability http://www.aliverson.com // All about me https://xnnd.com/calendar // Book my calendar ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2/23/24 15:12, Mark Fletcher wrote: On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:09 PM Jay Hennigan via mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote: There are many systems that scan links in email and falsely unsubscribe. I'd make it two-click. When clicked, have it go to a page that says: You are about to unsubscribe [address] from mailing list [name of list]. Are you sure you want to do this? [Yes] [No] Sorry, I misspoke/wasn't clear. It does do that now. People still click on that Yes button. Well, you can't fix stupid. But duct tape can muffle the sound. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:09 PM Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: > > There are many systems that scan links in email and falsely unsubscribe. > I'd make it two-click. When clicked, have it go to a page that says: > > You are about to unsubscribe [address] from mailing list [name of list]. > Are you sure you want to do this? [Yes] [No] > > Sorry, I misspoke/wasn't clear. It does do that now. People still click on that Yes button. Thanks, Mark ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2/23/24 13:39, Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote: Hi All, I run an email groups hosting service. For many years now, each group message has included a one click unsubscribe link in the message footer. We also include appropriate List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click headers. The problem with including a one-click unsubscribe link in the message bodies occurs when a group message is forwarded to someone else, and they click on the link, unsubscribing the original person. We have an easy one-click resubscribe system for this, but it's still not wonderful and occasionally causes problems/confusion. My question to you all is, do you think that the List-Unsubscribe=One-Click header is supported well enough these days such that I can replace the one-click unsub link in the message bodies with a link that requires authentication? Also, do you think doing so would adversely affect our distribution? There are many systems that scan links in email and falsely unsubscribe. I'd make it two-click. When clicked, have it go to a page that says: You are about to unsubscribe [address] from mailing list [name of list]. Are you sure you want to do this? [Yes] [No] -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Hi, On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 01:39:46PM -0800, Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote: > My question to you all is, do you think that the List-Unsubscribe=One-Click > header is supported well enough these days such that I can replace the > one-click unsub link in the message bodies with a link that requires > authentication? Also, do you think doing so would adversely affect our > distribution? Do you not find that there are too many things that automatically scan links in incoming emails? Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
