Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[jamie pitman via Marxism]

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Defensiveness and incomprehension? You either have real issues with arrogance 
or the sort of dull grasp on reality that comes from belonging to a group of a 
dozen or so deluded trots with a propensity for looking at their feet when 
talking to the public. 

It would be a dumb defence indeed that began by personally questioning whether 
I voted correctly. My messages were intended to be collegial/ anecdotal (I wish 
I hadn’t bothered) from somebody here rather than somebody else attempting to 
concoct a party line from afar. In that regard we probably inhabit different 
universes. I have no pretensions about leading the masses. I voted as an 
individual and didn’t try to convince anybody else to vote either way (indeed, 
my partner went the opposite way to me). 

What I am saying is your analysis is dangerously simplistic – not to defend 
some position that I don’t have – but because it is. For 10 of the 12 week 
campaign the main focus (from the remain side who made their voice louder) was 
the economy and not immigration. On a daily basis, ‘captains of industry’, 
asset managers, business leaders, celebrities and world leaders were wheeled 
out to tell everybody they were better in and biblical plagues would surely 
follow withdrawal (‘project fear’; psephology 101 – ‘it’s the economy, 
stupid’). The remain side consistently polled ahead of leave, and again – 
because I don’t follow an unbending line like a lobotomised trotbot – I 
intended to vote remain. It was the daily drubbing from neoliberals telling us 
all we couldn’t survive without them (without scarcely considering we’ve been 
lucky to last this long with them) that made me switch to leave. At that 
last-minute point, voting against Goldman Sachs didn’t seem to me the sort of 
ethical dilemma you apparently predicted with such prescience.

Your assertion that attacks on the street/ the rise of the right was always a 
foregone conclusion according to determinations thrown up by the referendum is 
complete and utter nonsense. As should be clear by now, this isn’t a defence of 
my vote (that wouldn’t make sense in the context of what I’ve already written) 
but calling bullshit on the conceit that you saw all this coming in the 
parameters you suggest. As you’ve rightly said, the campaign was shaped by 
right-wing opinion from all sides (Corbyn being a nominal remainer but largely 
absent). And, as I said similarly, both sides were racist to varying degrees 
(leave more so, particularly in the final stages) meaning this wasn’t a simple 
binary. Both sides tried to marginalise Farage (think: the relationship between 
GOP and Trump) but it was the In side that delivered Farage a default platform 
because Cameron preferred arguing with him to avoid debating fellow Tories and 
maintain some party unity. When Farage produced an obscene poster reminiscent 
of Nazi propaganda he was denounced by both leave and remain. Such was the 
campaign. Add to this huge feelings of resentment from the parts of the country 
left behind by neoliberalism and it becomes more accurate to say it was the 
atmosphere of the whole campaign + four decades of an ever declining social 
safety net that created the situation we’re now in. In short, a pressure keg 
seeking a release valve which was (stupidly) delivered in the form of the 
referendum. 

The main point being that the far left throwing their paltry weight behind 
remain would have made zero difference. Remain winning by a slender margin 
would have made no difference. The same people would still have channelled 
decades of grievance – and lashed out violently in some cases - in what has 
felt like a fleeting moment of enfranchisement, rather than being emboldened, 
as your analysis would suggest. This would have been the result of a close 
leave or remain, and as I’ve said, the left were never in any position to alter 
the vote meaningfully (I.e. at all). Finally, I think you’re wrong to 
dichotomise the economics of the EU and the right wing reaction they are 
producing all over the continent – making the argument that remain equalled a 
simple win for anti-racism even murkier in my opinion. 



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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[jamie pitman via Marxism]

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Sent too early.

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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[jamie pitman via Marxism]

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Defensiveness and incomprehension? You either have real issues with arrogance 
or the sort of dull grasp on reality that comes from belonging to a group of a 
dozen or so deluded trots with a propensity for looking at their feet when 
talking to the public. 

It would be a dumb defence indeed that began by personally questioning whether 
I voted correctly. My messages were intended to be collegial/ anecdotal (I wish 
I hadn’t bothered) from somebody here rather than somebody else attempting to 
concoct a party line from afar. In that regard we probably inhabit different 
universes. I have no pretensions about leading the masses. I voted as an 
individual and didn’t try to convince anybody else to vote either way (indeed, 
my partner went the opposite way to me). 

What I am saying is your analysis is dangerously simplistic – not to defend 
some position that I don’t have – but because it is. For 10 of the 12 week 
campaign the main focus (from the remain side who made their voice louder) was 
the economy and not immigration. On a daily basis, ‘captains of industry’, 
asset managers, business leaders, celebrities and world leaders were wheeled 
out to tell everybody they were better in and biblical plagues would surely 
follow withdrawal (‘project fear’; psephology 101 – ‘it’s the economy, 
stupid’). The remain side consistently polled ahead of leave, and again – 
because I don’t follow an unbending line like a lobotomised trotbot – I 
intended to vote remain. It was the daily drubbing from neoliberals telling us 
all we couldn’t survive without them (without ever considering we’ve been lucky 
to last this long with them) that made me switch to leave. At that last-minute 
point, voting against Goldman Sachs didn’t seem to me the sort of ethical 
dilemma you apparently predicted with such prescience.

Your assertion that attacks on the street/ the rise of the right was always a 
foregone conclusion according to determinations thrown up by the referendum is 
complete and utter nonsense. As should be clear by now, this isn’t a defence of 
my vote (that wouldn’t make sense in the context of what I’ve already written) 
but calling bullshit on the conceit that you saw all this coming in the 
parameters you suggest. As you’ve rightly said, the campaign was shaped by 
right-wing opinion from all sides (Corbyn being a nominal remainer but largely 
absent). And, as I said similarly, both sides were racist to varying degrees 
(leave more so, particularly in the final stages) meaning this wasn’t a simple 
binary. Both sides tried to marginalise Farage (think: the relationship between 
GOP and Trump) but it was the In side that delivered Farage a default platform 
because Cameron preferred arguing with him to avoid debating fellow Tories and 
maintain some party unity. When Farage produced an obscene poster reminiscent 
of Nazi propaganda he was denounced by both leave and remain. What nobody 
considered was that large parts of the country who rightfully feel resentful at 
being left behind by neoliberalism didn’t give a fuck 

In short, the inter-dynamics between different sides were as distorted by 
Westminster politics as much as any thought of EU membership. You could argue 
that even if both sides were racist it is well-known here that the far-right 
have always favoured leave. But you could truthfully say that of the far left 
until the 90s. 

In short, the campaign from both sides 

EU
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From: MM
Sent: 28 June 2016 02:19
To: marinercarpen...@gmail.com
Cc: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

> On Jun 27, 2016, at 6:46 PM, marinercarpen...@gmail.com wrote:
> 

Defensiveness and incomprehension at basically every point. There just isn’t 
much in your response that it even makes sense to try to respond to.

PS: I’m not remotely important, but if even I saw what was coming, and that the 
only defensible position for the left was to try to defeat the referendum, then 
a lot of other people should have been able to see it as well. Some did. Many 
of those who didn’t have engaged in some of the most ridiculous, defensive 
bullshit I’ve seen in quite a while. Credit to you for at least being willing 
to admit “buyer’s remorse” (although I don’t care for the metaphor).


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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 6:46 PM, marinercarpen...@gmail.com wrote:
> 

Defensiveness and incomprehension at basically every point. There just isn’t 
much in your response that it even makes sense to try to respond to.

PS: I’m not remotely important, but if even I saw what was coming, and that the 
only defensible position for the left was to try to defeat the referendum, then 
a lot of other people should have been able to see it as well. Some did. Many 
of those who didn’t have engaged in some of the most ridiculous, defensive 
bullshit I’ve seen in quite a while. Credit to you for at least being willing 
to admit “buyer’s remorse” (although I don’t care for the metaphor).


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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[jamie pitman via Marxism]

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The origins of the referendum are common knowledge. Nobody on the left welcomed 
the referendum as far as I know or saw it as an opportunity - so this point 
about ‘naive wishful thinking’ and ‘imagined internationalist, anti-racist 
uprising’ is a complete straw-man. Obviously people on both sides of the 
argument attacked Farage’s rhetoric. But racism was equally forthcoming from 
the other side, if more subtle (one of Cameron’s ‘concessions’ was, 
effectively, to starve migrants who hadn’t found a job). Moreover, the racist 
right were unleashed by the campaign itself, at least as much as the result, 
and (whilst a counter-factual) its difficult to imagine the outcome would have 
been any different if the result had been 48 – 52 the other way. Had it been 
so, Farage would be gunning for a second ref and many who voted leave would 
have had the feeling of exclusion (and its violent consequences) further 
reinforced. You talk about *I and others* as if you’re *remotely* important. I 
have no idea who you are/ represent/ write for. Are you suggesting everything 
would of been ok if I’d just read your article in The Workers Armpit or 
whatever? Have you any notion how marginal the far left are currently in the 
uk? How miniscule? And yet you seem to suggest the far left can shape discourse 
and set the agenda and, moreover, the message of the mainstream media is 
completely unimportant. You further seem to say that we just needed the right 
arguments/ theory. The truth is the far left here comprises a dwindling pool of 
public sector workers, academics and students. Many of which are relatively 
privileged in the eyes of the old industrial working class. In other words, the 
far left was completely powerless to shape this outcome (whatever the line had 
been) and, historically, has largely itself to blame through becoming 
stultified/ petrified in doctrine that could no longer explain the world to the 
people it sought to recruit. I personally have conceded buyers remorse in 
regards my vote but in the end it made no difference (I am not in a leninst 
Ponzi scheme nor will I ever be again) so you can stick your charge of 
complicity up your arse. The same with your sickeningly moralising coda written 
from another country.


From: MM
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 6:05 PM, A.R. G  wrote:
> 
> it would be foolish to pretend that [racism] played no role


Which is why I’ve never pretended that. The argument for left support to remain 
doesn’t need to “go there”, nor does it gain anything from going there. Staying 
in the EU doesn’t help deal with British racism. But defeating a call to leave 
from the racist right absolutely does.
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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From what limited reading I have done, my understanding is that much of the
pro-Leave vote came from towns outside metropolitan areas where "generic
brown folks" are less represented.

Others are right not to lump any and all opposition to the EU with "racism"
but it would be foolish to pretend that it played *no* role given the open
advocacy of such ideas by some of the right-wing pro-Leave campaigners.

- Amith

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 3:01 PM, MM via Marxism  wrote:

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>
> > On Jun 27, 2016, at 5:30 PM, marinercarpen...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I’m not sure I understand what point you’re making...
>
>
> This referendum originated in Cameron’s appeasement of the right wing of
> his own party; there was no “left” that was remotely capable of redefining
> the terms on which it would take place or be understood — only some naive
> wishful thinking. For that reason, the referendum's impact was always going
> to be shaped overwhelmingly by the racist, anti-immigrant sentiments of the
> people who had “won” it as a concession: they knew they could spin this as
> a victory for nativism and "traditional values” (as they are now doing).
>
> Recognising all of that, many of us urged support for remain, not out of
> any love for the EU, but because *this referendum* — i.e., the one
> happening in the real world, in June 2016, because of Cameron’s
> appeasement, as opposed to some fantasy referendum flowing from an imagined
> internationalist, anti-racist uprising — *was not the right referendum for
> any progressive outcome*.
>
> Furthermore, since a leave vote was very obviously going to unleash the
> racist right, many of us argued that *left* support for leave would fatally
> undermine their credibility in the eyes of the millions of immigrants in
> Britain whom they would be complicit in making immediately, concretely
> vulnerable to abuse and physical danger — millions of people who are
> otherwise their natural allies.
>
> I don’t care *remotely* what left supporters of leave want to say in
> response to talking heads on the telly who are bad mouthing the British
> working class. Their talking points have never been any part of the
> argument that I and others were making. Raising it in discussion with left
> critics of their position is a defensive red herring — a way of avoiding
> confontation with the awful truth about their naivete and poor judgment,
> their recklessness, and their complicity in the violence now unfolding.
>
> I hope that’s a bit clearer, because I'm completely sick of explaining it
> while people are being attacked on the streets.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 5:30 PM, marinercarpen...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I’m not sure I understand what point you’re making...


This referendum originated in Cameron’s appeasement of the right wing of his 
own party; there was no “left” that was remotely capable of redefining the 
terms on which it would take place or be understood — only some naive wishful 
thinking. For that reason, the referendum's impact was always going to be 
shaped overwhelmingly by the racist, anti-immigrant sentiments of the people 
who had “won” it as a concession: they knew they could spin this as a victory 
for nativism and "traditional values” (as they are now doing).

Recognising all of that, many of us urged support for remain, not out of any 
love for the EU, but because *this referendum* — i.e., the one happening in the 
real world, in June 2016, because of Cameron’s appeasement, as opposed to some 
fantasy referendum flowing from an imagined internationalist, anti-racist 
uprising — *was not the right referendum for any progressive outcome*.

Furthermore, since a leave vote was very obviously going to unleash the racist 
right, many of us argued that *left* support for leave would fatally undermine 
their credibility in the eyes of the millions of immigrants in Britain whom 
they would be complicit in making immediately, concretely vulnerable to abuse 
and physical danger — millions of people who are otherwise their natural allies.

I don’t care *remotely* what left supporters of leave want to say in response 
to talking heads on the telly who are bad mouthing the British working class. 
Their talking points have never been any part of the argument that I and others 
were making. Raising it in discussion with left critics of their position is a 
defensive red herring — a way of avoiding confontation with the awful truth 
about their naivete and poor judgment, their recklessness, and their complicity 
in the violence now unfolding. 

I hope that’s a bit clearer, because I'm completely sick of explaining it while 
people are being attacked on the streets.

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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[jamie pitman via Marxism]

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I’m not sure I understand what point you’re making...the insinuation seems to 
be along the lines of ‘the lady doth protest too much’? I’m also unsure about 
who you would identify as ‘the left’ in the UK; the only thing really happening 
here is Momentum. Nobody takes the swp seriously anymore since Martin Smith, 
Corbyn, Lexit; the average age of its membership is frightening – one cold 
winter and the party would be decimated. And for the time being, Left Unity 
function as an adjunct to Momentum as far as I can see. 

Anyway, having now read the Huff Post article, and with more incidents reported 
today, I would have to say I’m feeling more than a dose of buyer’s remorse. Re: 
Seymour’s article - Nobody on the far left that I know of ever thought of the 
EU ref as anything but a toss-up between two shitty options (he seems to infer 
he’s some sort of seer working for the institute of the brain-numbingly 
obvious). Plus he seems more than comfortable indulging Project Sneer himself. 

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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 5:08 AM, jamie pitman via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> MM wrote: “It’s bizarre how defensive left advocates of leave have been about 
> this point; I haven’t seen a single serious example of this allegation, but 
> it is repeatedly invoked by left advocates of leave, and always defensively. 
> Very odd.”
> 
> You must be joking?

Absolutely not, but I think you missed (or misunderstood) the word “serious” in 
my comment. Nobody should be surprised that the mainstream press is 
entertaining this line, but where are examples of this allegation coming from 
the left? Why does every criticism of support for "leave” evoke the defensive 
protestation that it "wasn’t just about racism”, even when the criticism 
doesn’t suggest it was?
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[jamie pitman via Marxism]

 racists have been emboldened by the result is 
different, but – given the general toxicity of the debate (entirely the fault 
of our political class) its difficult to imagine that this would have been 
prevented if the result had gone the other way. And I would – pace the liberals 
– make the same point about the EU: its deafness to its own citizens concerns 
(re: declining wages, precarity etc) is allowing jack-booted little Nigel’s and 
Marine’s to pop up all over its racially-bounded territories.

Jamie
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From: MM via Marxism
Sent: 27 June 2016 07:24
To: jamie pitman
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:16 AM, Stuart Munckton via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> that does NOT mean everyone who votes to leave is a racist

It’s bizarre how defensive left advocates of leave have been about this point; 
I haven’t seen a single serious example of this allegation, but it is 
repeatedly invoked by left advocates of leave, and always defensively. Very odd.
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:16 AM, Stuart Munckton via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> that does NOT mean everyone who votes to leave is a racist

It’s bizarre how defensive left advocates of leave have been about this point; 
I haven’t seen a single serious example of this allegation, but it is 
repeatedly invoked by left advocates of leave, and always defensively. Very odd.
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[Stuart Munckton via Marxism]

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In terms of London and racism, London voted to remain. Britain in or out of
the EU may be irrelevant *in abstract* to how racist a country it is, but
this campaign was run ion a racist, anti-immigrant and especially
anti-refugee basis and has given real momentum to the racists. there is
already reports of far right demonstrations calling for all immigrants to
be repatriated, [plus the long list of racist incidents
http://www.huffingtonpost.co
.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c5639607.

It seems clear the racist movement *is* making gains. the idea it has no
ruling class backing is odd. It is backed by key sectors of the corporate
media and ruling class politicians.

that does NOT mean everyone who votes to leave is a racist or did so on a
racist basis, just that that was the main dynamic of that campaign. No
doubt people want to give Cameron and the establishment a kick and see the
EU as undemocratic and unaccountable body -- which it is, although the
British state is hardly more democratic and the British state is waging
class war, not at behest of the EU, but at behest of the British ruling
class. I don't think there was any progressive content to either mains
sectors of the debate (the laudable efforts of Another Europe is Possible
notwithstanding), but the leave vote was lead by a dangerous reactionary
campaign that has gathered momentum.

On 27 June 2016 at 15:51, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Will do.
>
> phil
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 5:45 PM, MM  wrote:
>
> > On Jun 27, 2016, at 1:36 AM, Philip Ferguson 
> > wrote:
> >
> > There is an attempt by the liberal-left to portray the Brexit vote as a
> > vote by backward white workers against immigrants and people other than
> > white.  In my view, this indicates the class prejudices of the
> liberal-left
> > rather than the reality.
> >
> >
> > Please allow me to encourage you to follow the link I provided:
> > http://huff.to/28VSnb5
> >
> >
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[Philip Ferguson via Marxism]

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Will do.

phil



On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 5:45 PM, MM  wrote:

> On Jun 27, 2016, at 1:36 AM, Philip Ferguson 
> wrote:
>
> There is an attempt by the liberal-left to portray the Brexit vote as a
> vote by backward white workers against immigrants and people other than
> white.  In my view, this indicates the class prejudices of the liberal-left
> rather than the reality.
>
>
> Please allow me to encourage you to follow the link I provided:
> http://huff.to/28VSnb5
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 1:36 AM, Philip Ferguson  
> wrote:
> 
> There is an attempt by the liberal-left to portray the Brexit vote as a vote 
> by backward white workers against immigrants and people other than white.  In 
> my view, this indicates the class prejudices of the liberal-left rather than 
> the reality.

Please allow me to encourage you to follow the link I provided: 
http://huff.to/28VSnb5 

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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[Philip Ferguson via Marxism]

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"Generic 'brown folks' living in Britain"?

I lived in Britain in 1980-86 and again on and off around 1993/94.  I
thought it was unbelievably racist.

I never went back until 2011 and 2013.  And what I found was something
very, very different.  London, and I would say, Britain is probably one of
the least racist places in Europe in terms of "generic brown folks".  There
certainly is racism against Muslims, but it doesn't translate into racism
against black British people per se.

When I lived there in the 1980s I would notice white Brits would often
flinch if someone black sat down next to them on the underground trains or
on buses.  In 2011 and 2013 I noticed how relaxed white Brits were about
'black' and 'brown' people sitting next to them.  I mentioned this to an
English  friend of mine who worked in Europe a lot over several decades and
he said in the 80s he always felt London was the most racist big city in
Europe but now (2011 and 2013) thought it the least racist big city in
Europe.

There is an attempt by the liberal-left to portray the Brexit vote as a
vote by backward white workers against immigrants and people other than
white.  In my view, this indicates the class prejudices of the liberal-left
rather than the reality.

Britain outside the EU will, in my view, be no more or less racist than the
EU is in terms of migrants.  As for the "generic 'brown' folks living in
Britain" - they are very much part of Britain these days, as the election
of a practising Muslim as mayor of London - the son of migrants from south
Asia, and whose father was a bus driver - indicates.

Whether the racist movement in Britain - and there certainly is one,
although it has no ruling class backing - is really able to make gains from
the Leave vote depends in no small part on the response of the serious left
(ie the anti-capitalist left).  If they champion open borders and do so
*within the working class* then the situation could be favourable for the
left.

I think there is a very good article in 'Red Flag', the publication of the
largest Australian far left organisation on the subject, here:
https://redflag.org.au/node/5352

Phil


On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:16 PM, MM  wrote:

> On Jun 26, 2016, at 11:35 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2016/06/23/revolutionary-politics-class-imperialism-and-the-uk-brexit-referendum/
>
>
> A superb piece, except for its glaring oversight of any consideration for
> the very real, concrete consequences of a “leave” vote for current
> immigrants, refugees and generic “brown folks” living in Britain —
> consequences that are being documented in real time on social media (under
> the hashtag #PostRefRacism), and many of which have been summarised by
> HuffPost here: http://huff.to/28VSnb5
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 27, 2016, at 1:02 AM, Stuart Munckton  wrote:
> 
> In its defense, it was written before the vote, so that hadn't happened yet.

A lot of us saw it coming, and based our vocal opposition to both the 
appallingly misguided, infantile “Lexit” campaign and the reckless “abstention” 
position on that understanding. Even so, I agree the piece is essential 
reading. Its articulation of “imperial privilege” as key to understanding 
British working class consciousness in the current moment is superlative.
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[Stuart Munckton via Marxism]

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In its defense, it was written before the vote, so that hadn't happened
yet. It is implied, IMO, in the piece in its discussion on racism around
immigrants and refugees. it could make it more explicit, possibly, but it
is as you say overall a very good piece. I think this is essential reading.
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Re: [Marxism] Brexit and imperial privilege

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jun 26, 2016, at 11:35 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2016/06/23/revolutionary-politics-class-imperialism-and-the-uk-brexit-referendum/
>  
> 

A superb piece, except for its glaring oversight of any consideration for the 
very real, concrete consequences of a “leave” vote for current immigrants, 
refugees and generic “brown folks” living in Britain — consequences that are 
being documented in real time on social media (under the hashtag 
#PostRefRacism), and many of which have been summarised by HuffPost here: 
http://huff.to/28VSnb5 

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