RE: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
Matt White wrote: Okay, then here's the technical reason: CDs are sampled at an insufficient rate to ensure proper reproduction. CDs are sampled at 44.1kHz, which gives a maximum frequency of 20kHz. The original argument was about what constitutes "analog warmth". I don't think vinyl cutting machines have any response above 20 kHz, so any content above this frequency will be distortion. Significant portions of the populace can actually audibly detect frequencies up to 25kHz. It is unknown what subconcious effect the missing frequencies might have on those who do not detect those frequencies explicitly. I'd be interested to know how big "Significant" is, and point out that unknown effects might just as easily feel worse rather than better. simon - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
* Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 28 Feb 2000 | I wasn't talking about DVD-Video though. DVD Video's audio tracks and DVD Audio are (or will be) mastered more or less identically. | No I wouldn't. 5.1 is fine for movies, but I don't see the point for | audio. The whole point of stereo is to recreate the live performance feel | in the room. To do this you need exactly two speakers. Hypothetically speaking, this is true. In fact, there is a lot to be said for 5.1ch steering. Stereo puts the stage and the audience in front of you, as if you were listening from the back row somewhere. Full surround steering allows the recording engineer to put the audience behind and beside you and the stage in front as if you were front row center. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
Edward Nigma (love that name) wrote, re analog warmth: It is not distorted. This seems to be a matter of belief. I don't believe it, but then I'm an Electronic Engineer, and therefore hopelessly blinkered. Cd's can be gritty and harsh unless you have good equiment. and many cd's are poorly recorded. An NO amount of "good" equipment can correct a bad recording, though I suppose if your equipment distorts enough, it might mask the problem... simon - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
* Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 28 Feb 2000 | Okay, then here's the technical reason: CDs are sampled at an | insufficient rate to ensure proper reproduction. CDs are sampled at | 44.1kHz, which gives a maximum frequency of 20kHz. 22.05, actually, due to the phenomenon known as "aliasing". [...] | This is one of the motivations behind SACD and DVD-Audio, which sample at | 96kHz, if my memory is correct. DVD-Video's audio formats, dts and Dolby Digital (AC-3) have the capability to handle sampling rates up to 96KHz, providing a frequency response of up to 43KHz. That does not mean all DVD-Video discs will have dts (many do not), Dolby Digital (some do not), or sampling rates nearly that high (very few do). | Of course, those formats also do 5.1, which I find ridiculous, but that's | my personal opinion. I think that if you had five surround speakers plus a super subwoofer, you would think differently. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Matt White wrote: Hi, This seems to be a matter of belief. I don't believe it, but then I'm an Electronic Engineer, and therefore hopelessly blinkered. Okay, then here's the technical reason: CDs are sampled at an insufficient rate to ensure proper reproduction. CDs are sampled at 44.1kHz, which gives a maximum frequency of 20kHz. Significant portions of the populace can actually audibly detect frequencies up to 25kHz. It mmm... I guess those "significant" portions of the populace doesn't mind about media sampling rates, and aren't a target market; in addition, it happens that people worried about such things are in the age of being actually losing their top frequencies hearing. Don't trust everything the marketing claims to sell its products. Almost all "canned" music media, including CDs, don't reach all the dynamic range potential. But even if this were improved, it wouldn't carry much benefit, as the other components in the chain (amps, speakers) are also limited, and you will always get the sound quality of the weakest component of the chain. The only way of improving that in whole is by means of actively crossoving frecuencies, which is a rather expensive way, so having multiple already filtered frecuency channels on the media, and specific amps/speakers for its reproduction (as it's already happening on home theater systems) will be much cheaper and effective. is unknown what subconcious effect the missing frequencies might have on those who do not detect those frequencies explicitly. The subsconcious effect that makes people say that vinyl sounds better than CDs are closely related with dynamics; analog media is more tolerant with level saturation than digital. Analog multitrack systems are still used on recordings of percussion instruments for example. The sound manipulations that must be done to realiably store something on a CD or any digital media in general (compressors, gates, etc) is what makes poorly recorded (most) CDs to sound "flat". Compressing is very difficult. Take any track of groovy CD that sounds decently (e.g. Jamiroquai's 2 latest albums) into a wave editor, and you'll see what a good example of an antonishing compression job is. This is one of the motivations behind SACD and DVD-Audio, which sample at 96kHz, if my memory is correct. Whoa, then there must be people whose frecuency range exceeds 40kHz? man, that people must be on the Guiness... greets, *---(*)---**-- Francisco J. Montilla System Network administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] irc: pukkaSevilleSpain INSFLUG (LiNUX) Coordinator: www.insflug.org - ftp.insflug.org - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
On 28 Feb 2000, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: * Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22.05, actually, due to the phenomenon known as "aliasing". Right, however CD are still limited to 20kHz at pressing. DVD-Video's audio formats, dts and Dolby Digital (AC-3) have the capability to handle sampling rates up to 96KHz, providing a frequency response of up to 43KHz. That does not mean all DVD-Video discs will have dts (many do not), Dolby Digital (some do not), or sampling rates nearly that high (very few do). I wasn't talking about DVD-Video though. | Of course, those formats also do 5.1, which I find ridiculous, but that's | my personal opinion. I think that if you had five surround speakers plus a super subwoofer, you would think differently. No I wouldn't. 5.1 is fine for movies, but I don't see the point for audio. The whole point of stereo is to recreate the live performance feel in the room. To do this you need exactly two speakers. -Matt - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
On 22 Feb 00, at 21:11, Edward Nigma wrote: using good equipment, SACD and Dvd-audio should have the analog warmth afaik. E. Nigma But what is analog warmth. AFAIK analog warmth is nothing more then plain distortion of the signal. Vinyl sounds warmer then a CD because the signal is more distorted then the signal from a CD. Remco - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
It is not distorted. Cd's can be gritty and harsh unless you have good equiment. and many cd's are poorly recorded. "To acquire knowledge, one must study; but to acquire wisdom, one must observe." --Marilyn vos Savant - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
using good equipment, SACD and Dvd-audio should have the analog warmth afaik. E. Nigma "To acquire knowledge, one must study; but to acquire wisdom, one must observe." --Marilyn vos Savant - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
tube amp. Now if you have a DVD-audio and a nice tube amp you should get some of this warmth back, but i personally dont think these new formats will give us much more than a lot longer listening time, and hopefully another channel or two :) Matt I doubt that the extra time will be used very often; why sell one DVD-A when you could sell several? -- Simon - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
In a message dated 2/22/00 12:19:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can't you put it back into the digital camera and reformat the card? My Olympus R340D uses Smartmedia, and there are instructions on how to format the media. From the manual, To format the card, 1. press the erase button and the Flash mode button at the same time. 2. Press OK (shutter) To reformat, press erase button and LCD monitor ON/OFF at the same time with the power off. Press OK. Hope that helps. You'd think, right? Nope. Rio has done some kinda funky voodoo on the memory allocation system of the card itself. It won't format on the digicam, and the flashpath floppy disk adapter can't read it or format it either. Gary - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
In a message dated 2/21/00 11:34:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aside from the no moving parts issue, I find no advantage to solid state storage if it still involves compression. ATRAC and magneto/optical digital storage have proven themselves. However, we all have to admit that solid state is the future of audio, and all portable info carriers for that matter. How distant this future is, I can't say. THink about it, MD players keep coming out with more and more "shock memory" When its cheap enough, the solid state memory will replace the disk media for good. That's the future. For now, I'll stick with MD Gary - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
"PS sorry about the babbling" I can only speak for myself. But I did think it was babble. I really enjoyed your comments and found them very informative. Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
Actually if i recall correctly DVD-audio and SACD will not match the fullness and warmth of LP's, the reason lp's have this warmth as we like to call it is because it is all analog and it has a response time. To get this with today's technologies you really need to dish out some serious cash and purchase a nice tube amp. With the SACD's and the DVD-audio you are still going to be all digital and have resonse time that is well above that of a tube amp. Now if you have a DVD-audio and a nice tube amp you should get some of this warmth back, but i personally dont think these new formats will give us much more than a lot longer listening time, and hopefully another channel or two :) Matt - Original Message - From: Edward Nigma [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 9:55 PM Subject: Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience I agree with LAS in the sense that MD and Mp3's involve compression. So do cd's for that matter. Cant wait to get my hands on SACD and DVD-audio. Supposedly, they match the fullness and warmth of LP's. My $.02 E. Nigma "To acquire knowledge, one must study; but to acquire wisdom, one must observe." --Marilyn vos Savant - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === the trouble is automation with md, if you want to record long programs, and still use stereo, you can't because there's no changers on the market that hold lots of md's. What would be more usefull is if it could control your tuner/satellite system to go to certain channels at certain times. Can you record from the c-band satellite receivers that are usually set for TV channels, like just to get the audio of a program? Much more compact for recording news and other things that the visual part can be eliminated than wasting video tapes to record just audio to see a black screen. At 11:27 PM 2/21/00 -0500, you wrote: Hi Gary, Can't help you with your love life, but I really appreciate the input about Rio. MD has been around for about 8 years now. Although I'm the only person in the MD world that finds the quality of Sony's MZ-1 acceptable, in 8 years MD manufactures have not sat on their hands. By the time that they got to ATRAC 3.4 or 4, they had it down pretty well. Aside from the no moving parts issue, I find no advantage to solid state storage if it still involves compression. ATRAC and magneto/optical digital storage have proven themselves. And 74 or 80 minutes of storage on an MD costs a lot less then using "solid state". If you don't want compression, get a CD Writer. But if you are looking for a more "perfect media, I say MD wins. I have never had an MD (disc) that would no longer work because it was scratched. I have a load of CD that are useless. Just my 2 cents. Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the mp3 player, not the country singer. I don't know what came over me, but I went out and bought a Rio player at Comp USA today. Well, I do know what came over me, and if you must know, I subconsciously thought that a new gadget would soothe the problems in my love life. Anywho, I was not very impressed. I bought the thing because it is the only player out there that uses Smartmedia flash cards instead of the more popular compact flash. I already had a couple of these cards on hand for my digital camera. The card needed to be formatted to be used in the Rio, so I formatted. I tried to put several tracks from the free internet-only album by the greatest band on earth, Self (www.dreamworksrecords.com/self). However, little Mr. Rio told me that the files were "first generation copies" and could not be placed on the player. Rubbish, I say! The tracks were meant to be freely distributed!! When I finally got a different track recorded, I was also none too impressed with the sound. And the volume was absolutley pitiful. I'm returning the Rio tommorrow (grumbling all the way about CompUSA's 15% open box charge). But you wanna know the best part? The $99 Smartmedia card I formatted is now pemanently unusable in anything other than a Rio player, a fact that the instructions failed to mention. Wonderful, n'est-ce pas? I sent a letter to Diamond tech support and am eagerly awaiting to see what there reply will be. If the words "new smartmedia card" are not included, I am going to be ROYALLY pissed off. The moral of this story? Stick to minidisc, and bash Diamond execs with sticks if you ever see them. Gary - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === Do they sell these smart cards in packs like, 10 for 10 dollars or something. Was thinking about an mp3 player, but thought that wouldn't work seeing I want to record talk shows off the radio anyway. Could wind up needing an awfull lot of these cards if I went that route, and I don't want to wear my hd on my machine out from constantly recording from headphone jack connected to line in, besides my cd burner is on the line in, and now when I play music, or record with the mike, my signal's lower than I used to be, sounded nice and loud when I first had the machine. Could I have blown part of the sound card by turning everything on at once in the recording properties of volume control? It's only a one channel card soldered on to the mother board, not too easily replaced with much else. I was trying an experiment to try to record from the mike-in, and playing mp3's at the same time, but it plays back really quiet with the music louder than my voice, not the best way to mix in my opinion. At 12:04 AM 2/22/00 -0500, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . But you wanna know the best part? The $99 Smartmedia card I formatted is now pemanently unusable in anything other than a Rio player, a fact that the instructions failed to mention. Wonderful, n'est-ce pas? Can't you put it back into the digital camera and reformat the card? My Olympus R340D uses Smartmedia, and there are instructions on how to format the media. From the manual, To format the card, 1. press the erase button and the Flash mode button at the same time. 2. Press OK (shutter) To reformat, press erase button and LCD monitor ON/OFF at the same time with the power off. Press OK. Hope that helps. -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === could shock memory be replaced with the ability to eliminate silence and have a good transition between songs? Like those CD changers that take 5 to 10 seconds to change disks, can you set them to record some in memory so by the time the disk has to change, you could have gapless playing? At 03:36 PM 2/22/00 EST, you wrote: In a message dated 2/21/00 11:34:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aside from the no moving parts issue, I find no advantage to solid state storage if it still involves compression. ATRAC and magneto/optical digital storage have proven themselves. However, we all have to admit that solid state is the future of audio, and all portable info carriers for that matter. How distant this future is, I can't say. THink about it, MD players keep coming out with more and more "shock memory" When its cheap enough, the solid state memory will replace the disk media for good. That's the future. For now, I'll stick with MD Gary - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
I agree with LAS in the sense that MD and Mp3's involve compression. So do cd's for that matter. Cant wait to get my hands on SACD and DVD-audio. Supposedly, they match the fullness and warmth of LP's. My $.02 E. Nigma "To acquire knowledge, one must study; but to acquire wisdom, one must observe." --Marilyn vos Savant - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
Hi. It all goes back to the moving parts problem. Solid state is immune from shock. With the prices of regular RAM going up, I don't see the price special memory (is it called static RAM?) dropping in the near future. Also, using a standard sized memory module, such as Flash cards or Smart media, there are limits as to how much memory you can fit on a card aren't there?? I am really bothered by the concept of having to use compression, whether it's for MD or MP3. Especially since creating music CDs (I know I'm not crazy about their size or the fact that they scratch so easily) is becoming dirt cheap. Regards, Larry However, we all have to admit that solid state is the future of audio, and all portable info carriers for that matter. How distant this future is, I can't say. THink about it, MD players keep coming out with more and more "shock memory" When its cheap enough, the solid state memory will replace the disk media for good. That's the future. For now, I'll stick with MD Gary - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
=== The original message was multipart MIME=== === All non-text parts (attachments) have been removed === Edward Nigma wrote: I agree with LAS in the sense that MD and Mp3's involve compression. So do cd's for that matter. Cant wait to get my hands on SACD Technically that is correct. But the compression is much less then an LP. Cant wait to get my hands on SACD and DVD-audio. Supposedly, they match the fullness and warmth of LP's. What give LPs their "warmth isn't a lack of compression, it probably IS the compress (at least in part.. They are heavily compressed and have cut off limits at the high and low ends. The compression is necessary because of the limited dynamic range it has to be limited to handle what the medium can handle. As I'm sure most of you know, the dynamic range is the difference between the quietest sound ahd the loudest sound on a track. We have grown so accustom to "electronic" music that we have in some cases grown to enjoy it better then live. There is nothing wrong with this. If the recording engineer can become a part of the creative process by the way they use compress and electronic processing and we like the final result, that's great. But I really think that the "warmth" of LPs is mostly do to the limitations of the media. Even those clicks and pops contribute. One quiet passages they may be annoying. But on louder passages where they are not obvious, they still effect the overall sound. So until you hear any new recorded media for your self, reserve your judgment. Remember the next step up from CD is going to have even less distortion, a wider dynamic range and a flatter frequency response. Regards, Larry === MIME part removed : text/html; === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: My Diamond Rio Experience
Hi Gary, Can't help you with your love life, but I really appreciate the input about Rio. MD has been around for about 8 years now. Although I'm the only person in the MD world that finds the quality of Sony's MZ-1 acceptable, in 8 years MD manufactures have not sat on their hands. By the time that they got to ATRAC 3.4 or 4, they had it down pretty well. Aside from the no moving parts issue, I find no advantage to solid state storage if it still involves compression. ATRAC and magneto/optical digital storage have proven themselves. And 74 or 80 minutes of storage on an MD costs a lot less then using "solid state". If you don't want compression, get a CD Writer. But if you are looking for a more "perfect media, I say MD wins. I have never had an MD (disc) that would no longer work because it was scratched. I have a load of CD that are useless. Just my 2 cents. Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the mp3 player, not the country singer. I don't know what came over me, but I went out and bought a Rio player at Comp USA today. Well, I do know what came over me, and if you must know, I subconsciously thought that a new gadget would soothe the problems in my love life. Anywho, I was not very impressed. I bought the thing because it is the only player out there that uses Smartmedia flash cards instead of the more popular compact flash. I already had a couple of these cards on hand for my digital camera. The card needed to be formatted to be used in the Rio, so I formatted. I tried to put several tracks from the free internet-only album by the greatest band on earth, Self (www.dreamworksrecords.com/self). However, little Mr. Rio told me that the files were "first generation copies" and could not be placed on the player. Rubbish, I say! The tracks were meant to be freely distributed!! When I finally got a different track recorded, I was also none too impressed with the sound. And the volume was absolutley pitiful. I'm returning the Rio tommorrow (grumbling all the way about CompUSA's 15% open box charge). But you wanna know the best part? The $99 Smartmedia card I formatted is now pemanently unusable in anything other than a Rio player, a fact that the instructions failed to mention. Wonderful, n'est-ce pas? I sent a letter to Diamond tech support and am eagerly awaiting to see what there reply will be. If the words "new smartmedia card" are not included, I am going to be ROYALLY pissed off. The moral of this story? Stick to minidisc, and bash Diamond execs with sticks if you ever see them. Gary - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
